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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:27 PM CST
LETTER: Bible quote used to wish Obama's death

By CONNIE MANES, Mattoon

A Biblical quote is being spread by President Barack Obama haters, as reported last week in The Christian Science Monitor: Pray For President Obama – Psalm 109 Verse 8.

What’s Psalm 109:8? It reads ‘Let His Days Be Few, And Let Another Take His Office.’ Let his days be few. Uh, it’s followed immediately by another verse: ‘Let His Children Be Fatherless, And His Wife A Widow.’

This quote is being merchandised on bumper stickers, mouse pads, teddy bears, aprons, framed tiles and on T-shirts.

Anyone and I mean anyone advocating the idea that President Obama’s children be fatherless and his wife be a widow, should immediately be arrested for treason.

Treason is defined as the offense of acting to overthrow one’s government or to harm or kill its sovereign. This Biblical quote is using language to incite rebellion against the authority of our nation.

Republican Party members or supporters against President Obama’s political policies, where are you on this issue? Will you stand up against the calling for President Obama’s death, will you stand up against these prayers to have Obama’s children be fatherless and will you stand up against the prayers to have Obama’s wife become a widow; if so, when and where?

For that matter, where is the Democratic Party on this issue? This is our president people. What say you?

All of you need to be shutting these thoughts and actions down and I mean immediately!

All during the Bush/Cheney years I’ll be the first to admit that I fought hard to stop their political agenda; but never once did I wish them dead; out of office yes, but never dead.

Frank Schaeffer, whose father Francis Schaeffer helped shape the evangelical movement in the United States, grew up in the religious far-right and also authored ‘Patience With God: Faith For People Who Don’t Like Religion Or Atheism,” was on the Rachel Maddow show on MSNBC. He said that this group of extreme religious right wingers is America’s version of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. I wholeheartedly agree.

Like the Taliban and Al Qaeda, they too must be stopped or we’ll have another Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma bombing (domestic terrorist attack).

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The Question wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:00 AM:

" That's not a prayer, it's a curse, and it shows just how insanely evil many of the so-called "Christians" are in this country. "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:23 AM:

" Connie, you stated this in your letter:
"All during the Bush/Cheney years Ill be the first to admit that I fought hard to stop their political agenda; but never once did I wish them dead; out of office yes, but never dead."

I have many of those same feelings now concerning the Obama administration and the people in it. However, I too do NOT wish any harm to come to them.

This kind of sentiment you wrote about has no place in our country. I hope you realize that the majority of us who are on the "other side" don't go for it either. There are nuts out there on both sides. I certainly don't believe that most of those on the left wish physical harm to come to their opponents. We have to be careful not to paint everyone who disagrees with us with the brush of extremism.

These people who are advocating this horrible idea, need to stop and think about the repercussions of such a deed if it were to happen.The thoughts I have in my mind if it were to occur are the stuff nightmares are made of. "

Matt Toon wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:18 AM:

" I do not believe that these people should be arrested for treason. In my opinion even very radical speech is (and should be) protected by the U.S. Constitution. However, there are also very practical reasons not to prosecute them. If that happens, people just like them will go deeper and deeper underground. Instead, we should want them as out in the open as possible so that everyone can keep an eye on them. We don't want to force them into the darkness of the underground and operating in total secrecy. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:25 AM:

" Connie I hadn't heard about this thanks for bringing it to people's attention. The whole Psalm 109 is titled (in my Bible, New Revised Standard) a prayer for Vindication and Deliverance. It appears to me that it is really a prayer for vengeance. The whole rapture theology is all about vengeance against those they think have harmed them. This whole drive by the Republican party to undermine Obamas administration is all about vengeance (only the slight was that their president was so bad and Obama in comparison is so good!). I always thought that growing up (being a Christian, an Enlightened soul, becoming an adult) was about learning to forgive. "

VTucker wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:25 AM:

" I'm a little puzzled by all of this, frankly. I just returned from suburban Cincinnati, Ohio which is a bastian of political conservatism. I saw a lot of cars (two of which nearly hit me, but that's beside the point), but no bumper stickers with the Psalm 109:8 slogan. After spending nearly a half hour searching on the 'net, I still don't know who originated the sale of these items, nor did I see anyone interviewed who's purchased them. Maybe someone can post that information here because I'd love to see it. Is this a real movement, or a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing?

As many of you know, I'm not especially conservative politically. However, I have friends and family members who are very conservative and feel confident not a one of them would advocate the death of our president, or display something that could be interpreted that way.

Similarly, I saw a lot of anti-Bush stuff on the web that encouraged his early demise--but never saw anyone wear the t-shirts or display the bumper stickers.

Anyway, if this is a real movement on someone's part, I would say it is lunatic fringe right wing and something all conservative political and religious leaders should denounce. "

hwsallee wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:35 AM:

" As a retired minister, I join those who feel that this kind of use of Scripture is out of place. The Christian faith is based on the love of God through Jesus and not of hate.

I am not thrilled with either political party, but I do want to see all persons live up to their full potential. Whomever can help us do that is appreciated. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 23, 2009 9:27 AM:

" We have to be careful not to paint everyone who disagrees with us with the brush of extremism.

Agreed, Billie. However...

You don't have to go very far to see extreme ideas. We see our president being called everything from a radical Muslim to a communist every day here on this site.

Remember the shouts of "kill him" being yelled out at the Palin rallies when Obama's name was mentioned? To his credit, McCain tried to get them to calm down, and was booed for his efforts, but Palin merely beamed at the crowd when those sorts of comments were being screamed.

The agitating actions by the Palins and the Glenn Becks on the political scene should be a concern to all decent people.

Was it just a coincidence that an abortion doctor was murdered after one of the Fox news commentators ranted about him for weeks on end? I don't think so.

How long will it be before some delusional Beck fan gets all worked up and decides Obama has to go one way or another?

For someone to use the Bible to justify killing the president goes beyond extreme, and unfortunately reflects poorly on religion in general. Of course no real Christian would ever express such hatred, but a lot of hatred is expressed toward the president on this site by those that profess to be good Christians. I don't have to mention any names, because all of the regulars know who I'm referring to. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 23, 2009 9:56 AM:

" ***YYYYYYAAAAAWWWWWNNNNN***

That's laughable, Connie, citing someone interviewed on the MSNBC Rachel Maddow show.

You'd be better off citing the Cookie Monster from the Seseme Street show!

CCCCCOOOOOOOOKKKKIIIIEEEEE! "

BW wrote on Nov 23, 2009 10:24 AM:

" TQ, you are such a great researcher. Would you please research whether anyone ever made potentially threatening comments toward George W. Bush? You don't need to include your own. Did anyone follow through on any of these threats? I expect that, in the tragic event that anyone did what you encourage, they wouldn't advertise it first. "

sapient wrote on Nov 23, 2009 10:40 AM:

" Connie: Why are you adding the ninth verse to the bumper sticker. It was not on it, nor was it intended to be on it. The sticker expresses the sentiment that his days "in office" might be few (meaning only one term) and his "office" might be given to another. If the one who originated the bumper sticker, T shirt, etc. had intended to include the meaning of the ninth verse my guess is that they would have included the ninth verse. If you want someone convicted of treason I would suggest that you look at those who are destroying our country through imposing devastating taxes and debt, taking over the banks,auto industry, health care, etc. rather than trying to make a bumper sticker say what it doesn't say.

And how do you know that it was "religious right wingers" that originated this quote? Aren't you being rather presumptious? It is not just religious right wingers who can find a biblical verse. After all, you found verse 9. "

JWT wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:10 AM:

" I sure didn't like Bush but never wish anything like this upon him.
I wished he'd get found guilty of fixing the 2000 election in Florida.
Amazing the ignorant hate the right has for Obama?
Half the country loves him, half hates him with a passion. Out of that hating half 50% are racisit, 25% anti abortion, and the other 25% only concerned with keeping their riches. "

The Question wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:24 AM:

" TQ, you are such a great researcher. Would you please research whether anyone ever made potentially threatening comments toward George W. Bush? You don't need to include your own
---
I never threatened George W. Bush, you lying fascist swine. And I'm surprised the moderator here would let you falsely accuse me of a felony crime. "

BW wrote on Nov 23, 2009 1:20 PM:

" Don't hold back, TQ. Just come right out with it. Maybe the moderators have more sense than you and know that I wasn't accusing you of anything, except maybe overbearing arrogance and nastiness. TQ, you are a pitiful specimen of humanity. "

Texas T wrote on Nov 23, 2009 3:02 PM:

" TREASON? Really? Please!!! Quite the Drama Queen aren't we? Connie, did you actually bother to read the article in the Christian Science Monitor? Because they do not believe as you do that it refers to making the First Lady a widow or the kids fatherless. As sapient pointed out, the bumper sticker is for 109:8 not 109:8-9. There actually is a big difference there.

"Still, that doesnt push the Psalms citation into the realm of hate speech, says Chris Hansen, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)."

If the ACLU doesn't think it is bad then can it really be bad?

Deborah Lauter, director of civil rights at the Anti-Defamation League agrees that the bumper sticker falls within acceptable political discourse.

For it to be considered hate speech, it would advocate actual violence or cite scripture that was more clear in its message.

The Question wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:24 AM:

I never threatened George W. Bush, you lying fascist swine."

TQ - OMG! I am rolling on the floor LMAO. You people just kill me. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 3:25 PM:

" There is a difference between censor and censure. Actions like these should be censured by ALL patriotic, religious-God loving, self-respecting and respectful citizens. Failure to do so is complicity. "

VTucker wrote on Nov 23, 2009 3:30 PM:

" I don't agree, sapient, wherever the idea originated to pray for Obama this particular psalm and verse--I believe it was irresponsible. Whoever came up with it has to know the verse that immediately follows v. 8.

Years ago, an ultra-fundamentalist group took over my mother's church. The pastor would pray for God to strike this person dead, and that person--there are those who feel it's perfectly legit to pray for someone to die.

I also believe that there are people out there who would kill the president, given the chance, and feel perfectly justified (by God) doing it. According to C.S. Lewis, "Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst."

But, again, no one I know would display this stuff--in spite of the fact they're already praying for next year's election. "

sapient wrote on Nov 23, 2009 4:39 PM:

" If the one who originated this really wish Obama's death, they were out of line. There is no doubt about that. My point is that that is not what the verse says. verse 8. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:02 PM:

" hwsallee

Don't forget, this use of scripture was used by scientologists.

NUFF SAID!

I'm drinking lots of rum and popping pinks and greys.
Letter to his wife (1967) as quoted in L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman? (1989) by Bent Corydon and L. Ron Hubbard

In addition to violating and abusing its own members' civil rights, the organization [Scientology] over the years with its "Fair Game" doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in the Church whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and the bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder LRH [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile. At the same time it appears that he is charismatic and highly capable of motivating, organizing, controlling, manipulating, and inspiring his adherents.
Superior Court Judge Paul Breckinridge.

Don't forget, far left or right is usually destructive. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:44 PM:

" Good point Medic, it is the extremeists/fanaticism that is the problem we face whether it is right/left, religious/non-religious, environmental/economic.... Fanatics know no limits and will twist and use anything and anyone to get what they want. "

The Question wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:04 PM:

" The people who sport bumper stickers praying for the death of the president are the lowest form of scum. And the people here who support them are equally disgusting.
Now I know that in 2009, American right wingers tend to be nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes, but really, have they no decency at all? Finally, have they NO decency? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:36 PM:

" Ok Connie I read the paper late today so I am late with this post, but this is about as radical an accusation as any radical could make. Do you really have any evidence for this? Rachel Maddow is also a very radical liberal more than willing to stretch this clear out of shape. So she stretched it and now you are stretching it farther. First of all Connie you are the one to quote the verse, Let His Children Be Fatherless, And His Wife A Widow. You said yourself that wasnt in the CSM. You just added that in for sensationalism. Secondly just because someone uses Bible verses does not mean they are a religious right winger, just look at Susan Humphreys she use the Bible for ulterior motives all the time and she is a religious left winger. Third, taking that verse out of context without examining the intent of what King David said is devious use of the Scriptures. I will use your own words, you need to be shutting these thoughts and actions down and I mean immediately! These kinds of unsubstantiated accusations are clear out of line. Fourth you seem to have missed it we have already had another domestic terrorist attack and it was not by a religious right-winger quoting the Holy Bible. "

VTucker wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:53 PM:

" I did see that a couple of sites selling these items (CafePress, Zazzle) have decided to discontinue them. "

Mama says wrote on Nov 23, 2009 9:04 PM:

" Now Im scared and gonna hide under the bed. The sky is falling, the sky is falling (I read it in grade 1 and scared the chicken dodo out of me.)
Church we attended saw doomsday and the coming of the Lord and we either all die or go to heaven. So as we aged, we decided two of us get on the roof when the preacher would say WHEN HEAR THE TRUMPET OF THE LORD SOUND,,,,,
you guessed it. Trumpeters on the church roof and we sounded the trumpets.
Never heard such commotion and crying of adults who thought they were lost.
We about knocked the ladder down hurrying down so not to be seen. But, we laughed for years about the GOOD CHRISTIANS who felt they had miss the Coming of the Lord. "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 23, 2009 9:54 PM:

" So TQ, You're going to categorize those on the right in 2009 as tending to be "nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes"? Who's spewing hate now huh?

Being one of those to the right of center in most areas I guess in your mind I fit all the above criteria. Oh yes, and having no decency. Not only do you sit there and make blanket judgments towards people who don't think as you do, you feel compelled to use vile, nasty adjectives to describe them. I find THIS to be indecent as well as intolerant.

I DO have friends on the left and although I don't agree with much of their ideology I have NEVER had one of them speak to me, refer to me or ANY of their right-leaning friends in the hateful manner you have here. We may have had some spirited conversations, but nothing like the name calling dung you've shoveled on this thread.

You've outdone yourself this time TQ with your intolerance and yes EXTREMISM. Careful. You're almost on the verge of apoplexy. We wouldn't want you to stroke out. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 23, 2009 9:55 PM:

" " The people who sport bumper stickers praying for the death of the president are the lowest form of scum. And the people here who support them are equally disgusting.
Now I know that in 2009, American right wingers tend to be nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes, but really, have they no decency at all? Finally, have they NO decency? "
________________________

And now accepting the award for 'best actress in a melo-drama'.... "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 23, 2009 10:28 PM:

" What Billie & sapient said.

And QUICK, someone call our resident liberal former nutty professor an ambulance, before he taps out! "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 23, 2009 10:29 PM:

" Right on target, NeoCon - well said! "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:14 PM:

" You nailed it Billie! Good for you. The intolerance of the oh-so-tolerant rears its ugly head with every post of his. "

Jim Halpert wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:29 PM:

" TQ, it is evident that you love to express your right to freedom of speech through all your idiotic comments on here. All I can say is that you better enjoy them while you can before your buddy Barrack Hussein Obama takes them from us. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:34 AM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:00 AM:
" That's not a prayer, it's a curse, and it shows just how insanely evil many of the so-called "Christians" are in this country. "

You are right Question. Their are many out there that use the Bible for evil. Phelps is a great example of this. Unfortunately, it is on both sides. Violence is not the answer, and should not be when it comes to our leaders. I do not agree with President Obama on many of his issues, but he is OUR president and deserves respect. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:38 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:25 AM:
" Connie I hadn't heard about this thanks for bringing it to people's attention. The whole Psalm 109 is titled (in my Bible, New Revised Standard) a prayer for Vindication and Deliverance. It appears to me that it is really a prayer for vengeance. The whole rapture theology is all about vengeance against those they think have harmed them. This whole drive by the Republican party to undermine Obamas administration is all about vengeance (only the slight was that their president was so bad and Obama in comparison is so good!). I always thought that growing up (being a Christian, an Enlightened soul, becoming an adult) was about learning to forgive. "

You are so full of yourself. The rapture has nothing to do with vengeance. You really do just make this up as you do along.
As for the Republican party trying to "undermine Obamas administration" being, "all about vengeance." Was that what the Democrat party was doing with all the filibusters during the Bush administration? Their are courts still without judges because of the Democrats not taking them up. You do not know what being a Christian is, because you do not believe in a Christ. Stop your mocking God. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:41 AM:

" JWT wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:10 AM:
" I sure didn't like Bush but never wish anything like this upon him.
I wished he'd get found guilty of fixing the 2000 election in Florida.
Amazing the ignorant hate the right has for Obama?
Half the country loves him, half hates him with a passion. Out of that hating half 50% are racisit, 25% anti abortion, and the other 25% only concerned with keeping their riches. "

Don't suppose you would cite where your figures come from? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:46 AM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:04 PM:
" The people who sport bumper stickers praying for the death of the president are the lowest form of scum. And the people here who support them are equally disgusting.
Now I know that in 2009, American right wingers tend to be nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes, but really, have they no decency at all? Finally, have they NO decency? "

Funny since you claim we have no decency yet your entire rant says the same about you. How does the old phrase go, "Takes one to know one." By saying these things you destroy your credibility. Why do you have to go to the name calling to get your point across. Your point was made so nice before the unneeded rant. "

EIUstudent68 wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:53 AM:

" You might not have called for President Bush's death... but I didn't hear you stand up and oppose those who did... where were you then? Typical of the Obama lovers... "waaaaggghhhh you are talking about my god Obama... stop them.." YES it is wrong to pray for his death, but ok to pray for his defeat in the 2012 Election... May GOD hear our prayers only for that... "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 6:10 AM:

" Well, of course American right wingers tend to be nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes, It's obvious. This presidential death curse is just another proof of it. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 7:57 AM:

" Billie you got a little hot under the collar (self-rightous indignation) for a generic comment not aimed at anyone in particular, yet look at the words you used, "I DO have friends on the left and although I don't agree with much of their ideology". IDEOLOGY (defined as a set of doctrines), you make them sound like hard line Communists. When in reality they probably just have OPINIONS on topics that are different then yours. Are their doctrines spelled out in a leftist manifesto, are they sent to the Gulag for not sticking to the party line. Like you they are probably left of center as you stated you are right of center and on some topics they are more to the right than to the left or vice versa. Don't you see how your choice of words is just as imflamatory as TQs. Which I suspect he used to show how words alone can fan the fires of hate which is the subject of this letter. "

Texas T wrote on Nov 24, 2009 9:48 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 7:57 AM:

Don't you see how your choice of words is just as imflamatory as TQs. Which I suspect he used to show how words alone can fan the fires of hate which is the subject of this letter. "

Oh Please, Billies words are not even close to TQ's name calling.

My dictionary defines ideology as 1. the body of ideas reflecting needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class or culture. 2. a systematic set of doctrines or beliefs.

So, I guess it is not just the bible you pick and choose from. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 9:57 AM:

" Ah, Susan gets my point. Proving that she is NOT a nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlife. "

even steven wrote on Nov 24, 2009 9:58 AM:

" Sounds good to me, but then again, I threw a party when swimmer Ted took his big dirt nap. Good times were had by all! "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:01 AM:

" " Billie you got a little hot under the collar (self-rightous indignation) for a generic comment not aimed at anyone in particular", Susan writes . Again YOU miss the point Susan. TQ was making a statement aimed at "right-wingers" and apparently judging( dare I say it?) the entire bunch according to the gospel of TQ.

I merely pointed out my interactions with those on the left as an example of the freindship we share with one another while disagreeing on idealogy. At NO TIME did I suggest that they were hardline communists as you suggested.

Big Whoop! I got a little hot under the collar at his according to you, a generic comment . So what! I displayed real emotion for remarks I thought were out of line. News flash for ya Sue!! I probably will again!

You seem to give TQ a pass by saying the words HE used were to show how "words alone can fan the fires of hate which is the subject of this letter. " Yeah right! He was just conducting a class in Inflmmatory Words 101. He wasn't "hot under the collar" when he wrote his words he was merely teaching us. Get real Susan. "

even steven wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:02 AM:

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:08 AM:

" The Question writes

" Well, of course American right wingers tend to be nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes, It's obvious. This presidential death curse is just another proof of it

"This presidential death curse is just another proof of it". Is that so? Never mind that several so called right-wingers have expressed their feelings that they are AGAINST it on here, myself included. That statement of yours is bull TQ. "

m wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:26 AM:

" Wow. Susan's attack on Billie is completely ludicrous. The bit about how Susan suspects that TQ did the hateful ranting to give us an example of the meaning of this letter is hilarious. Nice job, Susan...way to show your .... uh ... superior intellect. hahaha Oh, & the earlier post you made about people who twist things to get what they want ... awesomely funny! Ahhh, the hypocrisy.
Connie, you're a respected voice of reason on these threads. You were right in being offended by the extremist TQ's hate speech ... but don't let it bother you further b/c decent people can easily discern the difference in your posts and those of TQ & Susan. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:28 AM:

" " Well, of course American right wingers tend to be nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes, It's obvious. This presidential death curse is just another proof of it. "
---------------------

And this post is just another proof of you being a Drama Queen. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 11:27 AM:

" People whose political allies have printed biblical curses to destroy the president of the United States, leaving his wife a widow and his children fatherless, are outraged -- just OUTRAGED! -- that someone might dare to say something mean to them.
Sometimes you just have to laugh, because the world we live in is mad. "

sapient wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:01 PM:

" TQ: Aren't you the same TQ that chastised someone on another thread some time ago for name calling? I have not read anything from anyone who can even come close to holding a candle to you when it comes to name calling. "

sapient wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:04 PM:

" And to Billie, I'm sure now that Susan has explained things to you and shown you the error of your ways that you have repented in dust and ashes for everything you have ever done wrong. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:16 PM:

" Mr. Hendren get over yourself. Stating facts is not mocking God. Also since there isn't any God how can I mock what isn't there? Actually I think the whole rapture "theology" (or is it ideology?) is all about vengeance against those who the rapturists feel have slighted them. Why else would they gloat and be gleeful about others being left behind to suffer while they wallow in paradisical splendor? Especially since the whole concept of Grace (if the concept of Gods Grace has any truth to it) is against the concept of the rapture since Grace will be granted to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs or non-beliefs. Two conflicting theologies/ideologies/concepts/interpretations/doctrines, both can't be true. "

sapient wrote on Nov 24, 2009 2:44 PM:

" In the spirit of fairness and goodwill I believe that the verse Psalm 109:8 should be dropped from the Pray for Obama sticker and be replaced with Ecclesiastes 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. NIV "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 3:01 PM:

" Oh please TexasT get real. You also pick and choose. Now stick to the issue presented which by the way since you seem to have missed the point is how words can be imflamatory. Or perhaps I should say that you got the point quite explicitly and reacted accordingly though you don't see it in yourself. "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 24, 2009 3:15 PM:

" Hey! I heard Shump once saw a poster of Freud & Einstein. Well, I'll be damned! I guess that now qualifies all of her posts as an extremely intelligent & very truthful psychoanalysis of everyone nationwide.

Personally, I think it's Tinkerbell's last stand. "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 24, 2009 3:32 PM:

" sapient wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:04 PM:

" And to Billie, I'm sure now that Susan has explained things to you and shown you the error of your ways that you have repented in dust and ashes for everything you have ever done wrong. "

I keep my sackcloth and ashes outfit handy specifically for occasions such as you described Sapient. LOL "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 24, 2009 3:44 PM:

" even steven wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:02 AM:

"I bet you picked on mercilessly as a child. You whine like a sissy."

.......

That's a keeper! LOL! "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 24, 2009 3:52 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:16 PM:

"Mr. Hendren get over yourself."

.......

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 4:31 PM:

" Your right-wing clown-king Glenn Beck, who previously informed us how he'd like to poison Nancy Pelosi, now says that U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu is a hooker.
Beck said, "Well, I'm sorry! So we know you're hookin', but you're just not cheap."
But after all, what else can you expect from the leader of a bunch of nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes? "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 24, 2009 4:39 PM:

" Billie B:"I hope you realize that the majority of us who are on the "other side" don't go for it either."
I don't believe that's true (except I believe your statement exempting yourself).
When you see the signs at these outrageous T-parties, you can tell that there's real hatred. And you've seen the statement by the Secret Service to the effect that the threats on Obama's life have increased by 4 times over previous presidents.
I hate to say it, but he spends a lot of time in public, and I do not believe he will survive the term. There are too many nuts among the T-party crowd. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 24, 2009 5:06 PM:

" J Vanatta:" we have already had another domestic terrorist attack"

Now you can come out from under the bed Jon, It was NOT a terrorist attack. It
was the Far Right TRYING to keep you terrified, just as Dickie Chenie used to. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 24, 2009 5:13 PM:

" TQ:"But after all, what else can you expect from the leader of a bunch of nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes? "

TQ, congratulations!! you've got the "tune".

Reminds me Mark Twain's wife was quite opposed to his swearing, and one day, so he could see himself, SHE let loose with a swarm of profanity to shame him.
He gently reproached her, "Livvy you've got the words right but you don't have the tune yet."

But I can hear the "tune" in your words and I'll just join in a harmonize with you. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 5:44 PM:

" J Vanatta:" we have already had another domestic terrorist attack."
---
Of course you mean when the domestic right-wing terrorists got hold of the Pentagon anthrax. It was sent to the offices of two Democratic senators and several members of the news media, and killed five people, as you may recall. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 5:52 PM:

" So now that your wingnut Fox News hero Glenn Beck has branded U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu as a hooker, I guess it will be okay for me to identify Sarah Palin by her true profession. Fair and balanced, right, right wingers? "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 24, 2009 6:44 PM:

" Quick, someone give gramps a granola bar! The far-left nutty professor is wound so tight tonight, if he farts, he's likely to shoot out a diamond, before he collapses.

Now, get some Obamabot UnHealthy Care for our depraved friend, STAT!

He seriously needs the change!
LOL! "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 24, 2009 6:58 PM:

" No Cognitis, I'm not the exception. Far from it. I sincerely hope your fears that Obama won't finish his term go unfounded. As I said in my first post, if it were to happen,it would be the stuff nightmares are made of.

The ultra-right and ultra-left both have their share of nuts.I don't think it's one-sided at all.

By the way, I think I know you. Weren't you a friend of my dad's and do you play the piano? You don't have to answer, but if you do I can assure you I won't mention to anyone who I think you are. Just curious :-) "

medic57 wrote on Nov 24, 2009 7:14 PM:

" EIUstudent68

Republicans prayed for George Bush to do a good job as president. Now, it would really make no sense at all if republicans don't pray for Obama. If he is so bad and evil, should he not be prayed for even more? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 24, 2009 7:19 PM:

" TQ wrote, Of course you mean when the domestic right-wing terrorists got hold of the Pentagon anthrax.

Again TQ you have to twist the facts and lie. It was never conclusive who sent the anthrax. This was in 2001, not recently.

That is absolutely not what I meant and you know it!

Everyone knows that I was referring to the Islamic terrorist killing 14 people and wounding many more at Fort Hood. This Islamic terrorist himself established the ideology driving his motives by his actions and statements he made before the attack and during the slaughter shouting, "Allah Akbar". Our ostensible president said, Now we must not jump to conclusions. However when a white police officer questioned a black college professor about breaking into his house the same ostensible one immediately jumped to the racist conclusion. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:07 PM:

" I guess I will have to identify your fascist heroine Sarah Palin by her true profession. Clearly, she must be a rocket scientist.
You betcha!!! Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, twitchy wink wink, moronic wink wink, wink, wink, wink. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:14 PM:

" So, Vanatta, you think some left winger tried to kill two Democratic senators and news reporters with anthrax? Must have been one of those many commies they employ so often in the Pentagon biological warfare labs, don't you think? LOL. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 24, 2009 9:14 PM:

" We have commies in the highest government positions, czars, cabinet members, executive branch, college professors, and so why not in the Pentagon biological warfare labs TQ? "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 24, 2009 9:28 PM:

" BBrant:Weren't you a friend of my dad's and do you play the piano?

I don't know who your dad was, and I haven't played a piano since I finished school. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 24, 2009 9:34 PM:

" JVanatta:However when a white police officer questioned a black college professor about breaking into his house the same ostensible one immediately jumped to the racist conclusion. "

You used "white" and "black" at the
beginning of your sentence, so how could
anyone think OTHER than racism. Otherwise
you would not have used the colors. "

Jim Halpert wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:06 PM:

" As TQ says, us right-wingers are uneducated. Well your Harvard Law Graduate, Barrack Hussein Obama, must have slept through his economic courses.
His spending in his first year of presidency, thus far, has surpassed Bush's spending by $1 trillion in his first year! Mr. Barrack Hussein Obama is spending all this money and not going to raise taxes?! Tax the rich, they can afford it right? Tax the rich so we can provide all the illegal Americans with free healthcare. You left-wingers need to get a clue. Barrack Hussein Obama doesn't care about anyone but himself and increased government power. Socialism is going to be the destruction of our great country.

And to you TQ, you are the biggest disgrace to Americans, regardless of political preference. Your comments are defending the piece of scum that took the lives of 14 innocent American soldiers! He should be hooked up to the needle asap. Of course, you and your idiotic left-wing liberals don't agree with this. He should get a lifetime in prison instead, right? TQ, you really are a disgrace to Americans. You and your brother Barrack Hussein Obama.

TQ, why don't you give me your address so I can mail you a book for Christmas. Wait, do you celebrate Christmas? You probably do celebrate It, but at the same time you are on here Bible-bashing. What a fool. Anyways, back to my Christmas present for you: Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder by Michael Savage. "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:11 PM:

" OK Cognitus. Dad's firstname was Ivan. It's just a little game I play trying to guess who folks are. No big deal. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:31 PM:

" Cognitus immediately jumps to a racist conclusion. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:06 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:16 PM:
" Mr. Hendren get over yourself. Stating facts is not mocking God. Also since there isn't any God how can I mock what isn't there? Actually I think the whole rapture "theology" (or is it ideology?) is all about vengeance against those who the rapturists feel have slighted them. Why else would they gloat and be gleeful about others being left behind to suffer while they wallow in paradisical splendor?

Once again you don't get it. What a shock. It has nothing to do with people being left behind. It has to do with finally being with Christ in Heaven. It is you who seems to want to make it about something it is not. If it was about revenge, then we would not teach others about Christ. Once again you show your backwards predetermined logic. If you do not believe in God, then why do you try and quote his Word. Again showing your not getting it, and therefor not understanding what it is to be a Christian. Well except your predetermined ideas, that you have to have to make your belief system true to you.
________________________________________

Especially since the whole concept of Grace (if the concept of Gods Grace has any truth to it) is against the concept of the rapture since Grace will be granted to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs or non-beliefs. Two conflicting theologies/ideologies/concepts/interpretations/doctrines, both can't be true. "

Wrong again. As I have pointed out to you over and over and you for some reason can not grasp. Grace is like that of a gift at Christmas. If you do not except the gift you do not get it. Grace is for all who will except it. If you turn your back on God and his gift then you do not except the gift and do not receive it. It is not God who is turning you down, but you turning him down. It is not a contradiction, it is you trying to redefine to fit what you want. As for mocking God, that is exactly what you do. You do not state facts but yours, and those you can Google and find to agree with you. You claim to know his Word, then try and twist it against him. That is mocking him. Whether you believe in him or not is irrelevant. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:09 AM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 5:44 PM:
" J Vanatta:" we have already had another domestic terrorist attack."
---
Of course you mean when the domestic right-wing terrorists got hold of the Pentagon anthrax...."

You left out again "that was made under the Clinton administration". "

medic57 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 4:10 AM:

" Oh man, now look what you have done, I thought we could have one topic without Father Bob, now it will be to late. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 25, 2009 4:56 AM:

" As TQ says, us right-wingers are uneducated. Well your Harvard Law Graduate, Barrack Hussein Obama, must have slept through his economic courses.
_______________

That's right Jim Halpert. IF Obama did have an economics course, he probably did sleep through it.

But he probably didn't have one though.

You gotta remember, Obama graduated with a law degree.

A law degreee is a social 'science' degree. Social 'science' degrees like law, drama, journalism, art, education, music, etc. are degrees based upon the past experience of people, what occurred to people within historical perspective, and the theories developed by people based upon these historical perspectives.

These degrees aren't based upon anything provable within reasonable doubt; they're based upon 'how things ought to be', with history as their reference.

So people educated with these degrees aren't confined by provable things, standards, or constraints, like the laws of physics that can't be violated, and that's why they have such problems with the 'uneducated' people who live by such definitives.

So, because Obama was educated with a social science, 'story telling' degree, it's the reason he's such the socialist, clueless of effective economics and effective economic policy. "

m wrote on Nov 25, 2009 5:09 AM:

" oops. I somehow inserted 'Connie' in this post. I was talking to Billie. Sorry.
"m wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:26 AM:
Connie, you're a respected voice of reason on these threads." "

The Question wrote on Nov 25, 2009 5:47 AM:

" There isn't any "Michael Savage," Jim. There's just a pathetic little talk radio loon named Michael Weiner whose lies are so nasty that he's gotten himself banned from entering the United Kingdom. Naturally, you would worship Weiner. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 6:25 AM:

" Cognitus immediately jumps to a racist conclusion. "

Perhaps he remembers your Obama's mammy comment, Jon. You've not been very good at hiding your racist tendencies. "

The Question wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:17 AM:

" We have commies in the highest government positions, czars, cabinet members, executive branch, college professors, and so why not in the Pentagon biological warfare labs TQ?
---
Oh, would you care to name them, Vanatta? And how did you uncover this vast conspiracy of secret communists who control America, you clever thing? Did a burning bush have a little chat with you about it? "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:29 AM:

" Thanks Billie you and M and Sapient have proved my point and the point of this letter. Your words speak volumes. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:41 AM:

" The height of hypocrisy. Ms Humphreys chastising Billie for criticizing those who hold opinions different than hers. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:45 AM:

" Mr. Halpert, don't expect any of those on the left on these blogs to have any answers for what this president is doing to our country. They prefer to blame Bush or mock Sarah Palin but I have yet to see any defense of where this administration is taking us. But then again, unlike many of them, I don't spend my life on these blogs so maybe I've missed it. "

whitedove wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:27 AM:

" MY GOD PEOPLE !!!! This is suppose to be a site for honest debate. Can't you people just discuss the issue at hand and stop the da** name calling. It just makes you look stupid. "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:47 AM:

" Go enlighten yourself Susan. LOL! "

The Question wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:50 AM:

" I suppose Michael Weiner has to pretend he's "Savage" because the name "Mike Hammer" was already taken, eh? LOL. Typical psychological overcompensation by a cowardly fascist weakling who is too immature and frightened to exercise compassion, and who feels threatened by those who ARE strong enough to exercise it. "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:34 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:29 AM:
" Thanks Billie you and M and Sapient have proved my point and the point of this letter. Your words speak volumes. "

I don't think your point has been proven. Try again dear. Enlighten us a little further. :-)

To m--- " oops. I somehow inserted 'Connie' in this post. I was talking to Billie. Sorry...... No problem m. "

m wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:40 AM:

" I think Susan should change her name to Sybil. At least then people would understand immediately what they are dealing with...just a time saver really. "

ben of 101739 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:36 PM:

" For that matter, where is the Democratic Party on this issue? This is our president people. What say you?

this isn't our president, this president hates america and everything it stands for, this man is neither qualified to be president.
he is a muslim extreamist that wants to destroy america! "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:53 PM:

" whitedove wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:27 AM:
" MY GOD PEOPLE !!!! This is suppose to be a site for honest debate. Can't you people just discuss the issue at hand and stop the da** name calling. It just makes you look stupid. "

AMEN!!!
Funny to see people who call themselves adults do the same thing we tell our children not to do isn't it. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:41 PM:

" As I said Billie and M thanks again for proving my points. You are both winners. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:49 PM:

" "Former governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin, is promoting her new book and she's going to appear on the Oprah Winfrey Show. Sarah and Oprah. On the one hand, a very powerful woman qualified to be President of the United States, and on the other hand, you have Sarah." David Letterman

"But if you think about it, Sarah Palin and Oprah Winfrey have a lot in common. They both helped get Obama elected." David Letterman

Those jokes are dedicated to my fan, red,white,blue. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:50 PM:

" It is obvious I get it Mr. Hendren if I hadn't gotten it I wouldn't have been able to "jerk your chain" so easily. You said on another thread that a certain passage was allegorical. AND I agreed. There are a great many passages in the Bible that are allegorical,or just plain poetic, like those that refer to "the rapture". All dreams and delusions Mr. Hendren. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 2:03 PM:

" How many times do I have to explain to you the concept of "Grace" Mr. Hendren. It is another concept that you can google, do a little online research to find a great number of articles on the subject. Better still read a really good book, "If Grace Is True, Why God Will Save Every Person" by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. "Gulley and Mulholland have done what many Christians have failed to do: they have honestly faced the Church's traditional doctrines of salvation and eternal justice." Christianity Today. Oh but I forgot Mr. Hendren you look down your nose at those who do research whether online or by reading books. Hopefully others will have the courage to read this book and grow. If Grace is true God will save everyone (even you Mr. Hendren) otherwise Grace simmply won't be Grace. It would be briber or coercion but certainly NOT Grace. "

me wrote on Nov 25, 2009 2:13 PM:

" Here I have One for all of you.If you will look up Lord christopher monckton,and just listen to what he says in a speech on climate control you will have a real arguement in here I feel.If you do not want to listen to the whole 95 minute lecture,skip to the last five minutes.
I thought It was an interesting issue that should be addressed.
Agree or disagree we should pay close attention to the point he makes,and hope he is dead wrong.
After word I would love to here your responces. "

Teacher2 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 3:17 PM:

" Thank you White Dove. I swear I continuously look at this sight as a form of sado masochism, as all that ever happens is I lose faith that true, intelligent debate still exists. Whether it is hate-filled or arrogant banter, either way the arguments on this site make me feel even more disillusioned with both sides. As far as the comments about education's role in politics, one needs to be careful about what direction you take that. I am currently getting my masters in political science and have been teaching high school social science for about nine years. Education is a fundamental part of developing one's political ideology, but a person must be careful in the amount credence they place in the "sciences" (stealing from NeoCon). Too often I have seen a loss of personal beliefs and values in the name of intellectualism. I have a great amount of respect for the intelligence of my professors, but am yet to find anywhere near the wisdom I heard from my grandfather who farmed his entire life and only had a high school degree. "

The Question wrote on Nov 25, 2009 3:24 PM:

" this isn't our president, this president hates america and everything it stands for, this man is neither qualified to be president.
he is a muslim extreamist that wants to destroy america! "
---
I thank you, Ben, for proving once again that so many of you right wingers are just nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes who ARE extremists, but CAN'T EVEN SPELL THE WORD. And thanks for the laugh. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 3:26 PM:

" Funny to see people who call themselves adults do the same thing we tell our children not to do isn't it.

JRHENDREN

If we let children run the world, there would be no wars, no racism and no disease.

ben of 101739 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:36 PM:

" For that matter, where is the Democratic Party on this issue? This is our president people. What say you?

this isn't our president, this president hates america and everything it stands for, this man is neither qualified to be president.
he is a muslim extreamist that wants to destroy america! "

I see, and just where did you get this information at? Exactly now, not hear say. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 25, 2009 5:39 PM:

" BillieB: I know (now dead) Ivan Prather.
Ivan Miller in Crawford Co. Otherwise??? "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 25, 2009 6:04 PM:

" Cognitus---Weaver. He was the tall one.Died December of 2003. The way you "speak" and your political views reminds me of a friend of his. I used to go with him for coffee in the mornings and dad and his buddies always included me in their discussions. they made "te kid" feel very welcome. One fellow was in his 90's and still spunky. He's 96 now and his mind still sharp. There was a lot to be learned and absorbed from them with all the diverse thoughts and opinions. I miss it. "

Stanley Stetson wrote on Nov 25, 2009 6:33 PM:

" * the question and shumphreys sitting in a tree * k-i-s-s-i-n-g * "

The Question wrote on Nov 25, 2009 6:41 PM:

" Rush Limbaugh just "joked" about a military overthrow of the U.S. government.
Noting that President Obama will be delivering his speech on Afghanistan at the United States Military Academy at West Point, Limbaugh said, "My question is: Will they detain him? Hopefully."
That's the latest from Rush Limbaugh, the fat drug addict whom the nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes have anointed as their king. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:02 PM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 4:31 PM:

" Your right-wing clown-king Glenn Beck, who previously informed us how he'd like to poison Nancy Pelosi, now says that U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu is a hooker.
Beck said, "Well, I'm sorry! So we know you're hookin', but you're just not cheap."
But after all, what else can you expect from the leader of a bunch of nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlifes? "

Question

I don't much care for Glenn Beck myself, but, did you not just do exactly what you accuse him of doing? "

medic57 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:26 PM:

" It really comes down to this, I voted for Obama, while I don't like a lot of his policies, he has yet to do anything to damage this country.
If, as some say, he was not born in this country, it would have been found out, there is no way to hide something like that, not with today's technology. His approval rating was extremely high when he came to power and is very low now, so was President Bush's.
I truely believe he loves this country and wants to protect it, He is sending thousands more troops to Afganistan, a very unpopular decision. He just sent dozens of Bunker Buster Bombs to Israel, doesn't sound like much of a Muslim fanatic to me.
As far as getting rid of guns go, I haven't seen ANY signs of that yet, should guns be harder to get, you bet.
While I don't think his approach to health care reform is great, I haven't seen the republicans offer anything except the same old system. Like, put up or shut up.

Like I said, if Obama is so evil, shouldn't we be praying for him even more? "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:29 PM:

" Hey Billie, my sons band has just put the finishing touches on their Christmas album. I'll give you a call with a link when it goes on line. I hope you enjoy it. So far I have only heard their version of Silent Night, and it blew me away, but of course I'm slightly prejudiced. He and his family are coming for dinner tomorrow, and we're hoping he has a finished copy for us. I'll keep you informed. HP "

Bps wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:34 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 2:03 PM:
" How many times do I have to explain to you the concept of "Grace" Mr. Hendren. It is another concept that you can google, do a little online research to find a great number of articles on the subject. Better still read a really good book, "If Grace Is True, Why God Will Save Every Person" by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. "Gulley and Mulholland have done what many Christians have failed to do: they have honestly faced the Church's traditional doctrines of salvation and eternal justice." Christianity Today. Oh but I forgot Mr. Hendren you look down your nose at those who do research whether online or by reading books. Hopefully others will have the courage to read this book and grow. If Grace is true God will save everyone (even you Mr. Hendren) otherwise Grace simmply won't be Grace. It would be briber or coercion but certainly NOT Grace. "
-------------

Since you have continued to post, and post and post on this subject, please indulge me a poor Christian, just one post on this topic:

God gave man free will and the choice to choose good or evil and to accept him or not.

As a loving Father he hopes all will accept his gift of salvation through Christs suffering, death and resurrection, but he allows each and everyone to choose for themselves- because he loves us enough to let us chose.

Jesus fulfilled the law S., he was the only one who could as he was originally destined to do from the beginning. Because he was the Word made flesh and did fulfill the law, he was the one man who could take Gods punishment for all.

But to gain that salvation of Gods Grace you have to accept him.

Salvation in a nutshell:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (NIV)

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV)

John 3:3
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born again." (NIV)

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (NIV)

Acts 4:12
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved." (NIV)

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (NIV)

But all choices have ramifications:

Revelation 20:11-15
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
. . . . . . .
So like it or not S., those who believe well we believe.

Many Christians have believed it at the cost of their very lives.

Jesus is our choice just as it is your right not to believe or to believe in what ever it is you chose to believe in.

If it is as we Christian believe, that the Word is true and Jesus is the only way to salvation, you and all your worldly experts can take it up with him. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 25, 2009 9:09 PM:

" To all the GOD-FEARING folks on these blogs...HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

To all the godless socialist democrats on these blogs....

Enjoy your day off Thursday. And just remember it's a day-off given to you by the federal government in remembrance of those GOD-FEARING, CALVINIST PILGRIMS who, in the 1620's, remembered to give thanks to GOD for all their blessings! "

Billie Brant wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:00 PM:

" HP, I would love to hear your son's music. Please call. You and your wife and I still need to keep that date to listen to some of the finest local guys. I'm sorry the last time didn't work out. "

cedric66 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:19 PM:

The Question wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:35 PM:

" I don't much care for Glenn Beck myself, but, did you not just do exactly what you accuse him of doing?
---
Just take a look again at the litany of lies Ben recited about the president, Meds, and then you can explain to me precisely in what way he is NOT a nasty, brainless, civilization-hating, uneducated, Bible-babbling, rabble-rousing fascist lowlife. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:27 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:50 PM:
" It is obvious I get it Mr. Hendren if I hadn't gotten it I wouldn't have been able to "jerk your chain" so easily. You said on another thread that a certain passage was allegorical. AND I agreed. There are a great many passages in the Bible that are allegorical,or just plain poetic, like those that refer to "the rapture". All dreams and delusions Mr. Hendren. "

Wrong as usual. Do you ever get anything right? The rapture has nothing to do with allegory or dreams. Again try taking a Greek class.
________________________________________

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 2:03 PM:
" How many times do I have to explain to you the concept of "Grace" Mr. Hendren.

How many times do I have to to you? You seem to not be able to grasp what a gift is.
________________________________________

It is another concept that you can google, do a little online research to find a great number of articles on the subject.

Their you go again admitting you Google till you find what you want.
________________________________________

Better still read a really good book, "If Grace Is True, Why God Will Save Every Person" by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. "Gulley and Mulholland have done what many Christians have failed to do: they have honestly faced the Church's traditional doctrines of salvation and eternal justice." Christianity Today.

You might want to read it yourself. As for grace being for everyone and God wanting all to be saved. That is Scriptural, however so is that those who do not except the gift will not be. You really can not grasp the "gift" of grace can you. No wonder you have so many problems with understanding other Scriptures. If you can not grasp this easy concept, you would have problems.
________________________________________

Oh but I forgot Mr. Hendren you look down your nose at those who do research whether online or by reading books.

This from the lady who admits she does no research, except Google till she finds someone who agrees with her. I do research. I have written more papers on Biblical subjects then you ever will letters to the editor. I have taken Greek classes to better understand the language. Can you say the same, don't answer we all know the answer already. It is you who looks down your nose on everyone who points out the fraud you are.
________________________________________

Hopefully others will have the courage to read this book and grow. If Grace is true God will save everyone (even you Mr. Hendren) otherwise Grace simmply won't be Grace. It would be briber or coercion but certainly NOT Grace. "

I do not know how to explain it to you any clearer. Since my youngest can understand it and you can't. Grace is a gift you can either receive or not. That does not mean it is not grace if you refuse it. It just means you do not want it. The same as you do with God. Just because you don't believe in him, does not mean he is not real. If I refuse to believe Obama is the President does not mean he is not the President. God gives his grace freely for the taking, but like all gifts it must be taken, it must be received. It would not be grace if we had to pay for the gift. However, Christ's death on the cross paid the price for us, so it is free to us. It is a gift, already paid for, one just has to take it. I have to say I believe you understand you just refuse to admit it, like you do so often. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 26, 2009 12:29 AM:

" NeoCon

Those idiot Pilgrims would have done good to thank the Indians too, if it wasn't for them, the Pilgrims would have starved, the dummies planted their crops in the fall, the Indians had to give them food all winter or they would have died.

Question, Personally, I like O'Rielly, but Glenn Beck should be fired, he is way to arrogant, worse even than Rush. However, Rev. Wright is also just as bad. "

The Question wrote on Nov 26, 2009 5:33 AM:

" Question, Personally, I like O'Rielly, but Glenn Beck should be fired, he is way to arrogant, worse even than Rush. However, Rev. Wright is also just as bad.
---
Oh? And what national news channel lets this Rev. Wright spew propaganda every weeknight, Meds? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 26, 2009 7:14 AM:

" A great thing to be thankful for this Thanksgiving Day:

Marvelous, infinite, matchless grace,
Freely bestowed on all who believe!
You that are longing to see His face,
Will you this moment His grace receive?

Grace, grace, Gods grace,
Grace that will pardon and cleanse within;
Grace, grace, Gods grace,
Grace that is greater than all our sin.

Words by Julia Harriette Johnston

She lived in Peoria, Illinois "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 26, 2009 8:55 AM:

" Those idiot Pilgrims would have done good to thank the Indians too, if it wasn't for them, the Pilgrims would have starved, the dummies planted their crops in the fall, the Indians had to give them food all winter or they would have died.
-------------------------

Actually...in an earlier post...I mentioned how both the Pilgrims and the natives got together to give thanks. GOD bless and have a blessed Thanksgiving, medic57. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:12 AM:

" Honestly BPS why do you believe in fantasies? Why not accept the world as it is? It doesn't matter what religion you follow or whether you follow any, the ONLY thing that matters in this life is how you treat your fellow man. AND that is the message found in the Bible in the Upanishads, in the Tao teh Ching, in the Buddhist Sutras, in the writings of the Great Philosophers, Thinkers and even many Theologians. IT is about moving beyond doctrine and dogma to find what IT is really about. Maybe someday you too will grow up, and free yourself from fear. "

dkessel64 wrote on Nov 26, 2009 3:01 PM:

" Connie:
What happened to freedom of speech? This is not domestic terrorism, but AMERICANS, using the Bible to translate a verse. Some (believers) trqanslate (the Bible) literally, some not-so-much.
Treason? Not hardly.
The Word of God was written WAY before the Bill of Rights, The Constitution, politicians and Obama.
We read your version, which you exercised your rights to freedom of speech and freedom of the press in the paper. Now, let "them" have the opportunity to express their opinion, too. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 26, 2009 5:12 PM:

" Saw a bumper sticker the other day.

Honk if you love Jesus, text, if you'd like to meet him today. "

The Question wrote on Nov 26, 2009 9:29 PM:

" Honk if you love Jesus, text, if you'd like to meet him today.
---
Worth remembering, Meds, thanks. A funny line about a dangerous trend. "

Bps wrote on Nov 26, 2009 9:30 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:12 AM:
" Honestly BPS why do you believe in fantasies? Why not accept the world as it is? It doesn't matter what religion you follow or whether you follow any, the ONLY thing that matters in this life is how you treat your fellow man. AND that is the message found in the Bible in the Upanishads, in the Tao teh Ching, in the Buddhist Sutras, in the writings of the Great Philosophers, Thinkers and even many Theologians. IT is about moving beyond doctrine and dogma to find what IT is really about. Maybe someday you too will grow up, and free yourself from fear. "
----------
The world is what it is as are people.

There has always been and will always be good and bad and I have seen and done both.

I know God through his love and mercy and do not walk in the spirit of fear of him or of those in this world.

Many things matter in life, love of and kindness shown to all you encounter, helping others and treating all with respect, to name just a few.

All of these and more are the principles taught by and acted out by Christ.

As I was a poor beggar dying of thirst, all I have done is told you how I found living water. Do with it as you will.

I said in my earlier post believe in the world, mens wisdom or what ever you want as is your right and I will believe in Christ as is my choice and right. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:31 PM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 26, 2009 9:29 PM:
" Honk if you love Jesus, text, if you'd like to meet him today.
---
Worth remembering, Meds, thanks. A funny line about a dangerous trend. "
***
TQ have you actually convinced yourself that it is a trend?

Faith that has been growing for nearly 2000 years is traditional and accepted by the majority of people and foundational in America continuing from the time of the adoption of the Mayflower Compact in The Declaration of Independence and dominate among the writers of the Constitution.

This is hardly a trend but the overwhelmingly accepted faith and belief in Jesus Christ inherent among Americans since our Nations beginning.

And you think it is a dangerous trend?
A trend is a recent change not a 2000 year old major faith.

The dangerous trend is the recent movement to criminalize the Christian values and standards of morality and Godly families that made this a great nation that God has so richly blessed.

TQ you are not convincing anyone else that it is a dangerous trend! This is a serious problem that you have that is dangerous for everyone. "

The Question wrote on Nov 27, 2009 3:56 PM:

" You need lessons in reading comprehension, Vanatta. The quote is about the dangerous trend of text-messaging while driving, for Pete's sake. It has nothing to do with religion. Lighten up. "

The Question wrote on Nov 27, 2009 4:54 PM:

" One of the principles of fascism is that religion and the ruling elite must be tied together.
George W. Bush used coded religious language in his speeches ("wonder-working power," "an angel rides the whirlwind," and so forth) to sell his preemptive war against a country that never attacked or threatened the U.S. He called his Mideast invasions "crusades" before someone wised up enough to shut him up. He created "faith-based initiatives" as a way to evade the Constitution in order to grease church leaders with political bribes. His surrogates routinely accused his political opponents of godlessness. He told Amish farmers that God speaks through him.
Many Americans voted for Bush solely because they are actually gullible enough to think that anyone who mentions Jesus every 15 minutes is "moral" by definition, even if, at the same time, he happens to be preemptively invading countries, torturing hundreds of people and murdering thousands of others.
Bush, the most strenuously proclaimed "Christian president" in modern history, used the Christian religion to bring this nation to the brink of ruin, and that's something Christians have to answer for. Christian dogma was employed as a fascist tool. Serious Christians are going to have to do some soul-searching about why that was so easy to do.
Until the Christians can answer that question, they really ought to spare the rest of us their protestations of innocence, at least while the blood is still dripping from the blunt instrument of their faith. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 27, 2009 5:33 PM:

" Im not buying that TQ you are trying to squirm out. The part of the quote you were calling the dangerous trend was, if you'd like to meet him today. You think it is just a trend of people thinking that to loose your life by texting would mean you would meet Jesus today. Sorry, I know that is what you meant and if it wasnt you need to learn to express yourself better. Your 4:54 post confirms that is what is on your mind. You are a danger to America and as radical an anti-Christian as Nidal Malik Hasan is a radical Muslim because your hatred for Christianity is consuming you and your posts are increasingly rabid. Get some professional help. "

EIUstudent68 wrote on Nov 27, 2009 5:50 PM:

" Shumphreys is soooo liberal... she must be a left wing professor at EIU..... because only they can be so stupid but think they are smart. "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 27, 2009 6:23 PM:

" The part about texting on cell phones becoming a dangerous trend, I'll have to, unforunitely, agree with TQ on, Jon.

As far as the religious part/views, I'll leave that up to you two to hash out. "

The Question wrote on Nov 27, 2009 6:25 PM:

" You seem to have cracked just like a colorful Easter egg, Vanatta. "

The Question wrote on Nov 27, 2009 6:53 PM:

" Remember what Sinclair Lewis said, Vanatta? That when fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 27, 2009 7:24 PM:

" I have no problem agreeing that texting while driving is dangerous but I am sure that was not the reason for TQ responding in that manner, as I said you can tell what was on his mind by the subsequent post. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 27, 2009 10:32 PM:

" Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
~Winston Churchill "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 27, 2009 10:33 PM:

" The goal of socialism is communism.
~Vladimir Lenin "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:19 AM:

" Two points Mr. Vanatta polls show that Christians have been losing ground for the past 50 years with the latest polls showing the strongest decline and rise in the unafiliated and non-religious. Then if you look at the numbers that actually say that religion is a "major" part of the life the numbers are even smaller. Pew Research. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:22 AM:

" TQ the British hearings are exposing some interesting "facts", that Bush intended to invade Iraq immediately after 9/11, as well as other juicy tidbits. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:25 AM:

" EIUstudent68 I can understand how being exposed to the TRUTH for the first time and professors that are NOT intimidated by Christian drivel might be a real shock to someone like you. Try listening to what they have to say it may help you become a better person. And I honestly think you need all the help you can get. "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 28, 2009 10:53 PM:

" "EIUstudent68 I can understand how being exposed to the TRUTH for the first time and professors that are NOT intimidated by Christian drivel might be a real shock to someone like you. Try listening to what they have to say it may help you become a better person. And I honestly think you need all the help you can get."

.......

EIUstudent68, you can take that liberal savior, & educator wannabe, twist to the the bank.... Obamabot's bank that is. Please forgive her. She's going through that time of the month.... all year long.
LOL! "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 30, 2009 11:36 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:19 AM:
" Two points Mr. Vanatta polls show that Christians have been losing ground for the past 50 years with the latest polls showing the strongest decline and rise in the unafiliated and non-religious. Then if you look at the numbers that actually say that religion is a "major" part of the life the numbers are even smaller. Pew Research. "

Notice how once again Susan says something with no citation to back her claim. I searched in Pew Research and did not see anything like she purposes. What a shock. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 1, 2009 1:51 PM:

" Yeah JR I looked also and I think what it is she misinterpreted what she saw. The polls show us that when people accept Jesus Christ as their Savior then religion becomes less important to them. "

cd wrote on Dec 4, 2009 10:29 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:25 AM:

" Connie I hadn't heard about this thanks for bringing it to people's attention. The whole Psalm 109 is titled (in my Bible, New Revised Standard) a prayer for Vindication and Deliverance. It appears to me that it is really a prayer for vengeance. The whole rapture theology is all about vengeance against those they think have harmed them. This whole drive by the Republican party to undermine Obamas administration is all about vengeance (only the slight was that their president was so bad and Obama in comparison is so good!). I always thought that growing up (being a Christian, an Enlightened soul, becoming an adult) was about learning to forgive. "
- - -
Some Liberal Anti-Christian would never dig thru the Bible to find something that they could trash the Christian with, and then blame the Christians because it came from the Bible. No, never.
Could it be that only verse 8 was used because despite the left that it is a weak arguement, that they still believe that O wasn't born it the USA, and THAT would be a method to remove O from office WITHOUT leaving his children fatherless?

This whole drive by the Democratic party to undermine Bush's administration is all about vengeance (only the slight was that their president was [Immortal] "The One" and Bush in comparison was a mere mortal!). Now that sounds more accurate. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 5, 2009 9:11 PM:

" CD

Onlt verse 8 was used because Mr. Hubbard and scientologists have been using bits and pieces of scripture for years, that's how they justify what they believe, by using just the parts that suit them. HEY, just like Susan!!!!! "