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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Friday, November 20, 2009 9:41 PM CST
LETTER: 'Health care, insurance are basic human rights'

SUSAN HUMPHREYS, Oakland

“Do you think someone who has never smoked, should pay the same as the person who smoked for years and now has lung cancer? How about the guy who has drunk his liver away, should he get the same as the person who took care of themselves?”

“Our entire value system as a whole has been allowed to become so watered down by ‘protecting’ the rights of everyone so ferociously...”

“If people want health insurance they should get a job and earn it.”

Those are just a few of the comments that have appeared on the on-line discussion pages for this paper about the health care/insurance issue.

Is the person who discovers they have a genetic condition that leads to diabetes, obesity, schizophrenia, cancer responsible for their health problems? Even alcoholism has a genetic component. We are still in the early stages of unraveling DNA and each day discover more genetic components to health problems that we once considered life style choices.

Is the child born with fetal alcohol syndrome or some learning disability responsible for his/her health condition?

Is the person who has lost a job (and can’t find another) as a result of the financial meltdown caused by the greed of a few on Wall Street or because their factory was closed and their job shipped overseas an irresponsible freeloader?

Where does this attitude of “I earned it, and it is mine, mine, mine and the he** with everyone else” come from? Where does this desire to punish those that don’t live up to your “moral” standards come from? Do we as a nation think that it is morally right to visit the sins of the father or mother upon their offspring? Have folks never heard or said “there but for the (Grace of God) or (the luck of the draw) go I”?

Health care and health insurance are not rewards for virtuous behavior, the are necessities and a human right in this complex world we live in. Disease, poverty, pollution, racial, ethnic and religious hatreds and the wars and problems they spawn don’t respect man-made boundaries, wealth, or social status. Health care and health insurance for all are one of those “values” that some of us think are worth fighting so “ferociously for.” They are a vital component of a safe, peaceful and prosperous society and in the best interest of all.

SUSAN HUMPHREYS

Oakland

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jrhendren wrote on Nov 21, 2009 12:11 AM:

" Susan you know if you are going to quote me you should at least give me credit.

As for health care, I've said before that something needs to be done with it, the problem is the distribution process has flaws that need fixed. It is of a Socialist mentality to take from those who have and give to those who do not. It is far better to give with a cheerful heart then be forced. That is something I have taught my children from the beginning, and they give freely. It is a fact though that it is wrong to make someone who has taken care of themselves pay for someone who has not. I am not talking about someone who is born with a problem, or has problems do to something they had no control over. I am talking about those who know better, but just don't care. With your statements I would have to say you were against the smoking bans in the state. Since you seem to believe anyone can do what they want, and everyone else should pay for it. I myself believe some of them to be wrong, like smoking in a bar for instance. If their was still smoking in a bar, and I didn't want to smell like smoke, or take the chance of second hand smoke effects I would go to the bar. I made the choice. If I go and smoke and get cancer I made that choice. I should have to pay at least part for my bad decision. You say, "oh well you made a bad choice, but that's okay someone else will pay for it for you and should." That is the fairness you say you are for? You are always saying you speak for the one who can not, yet the one who can and disagrees with you, you tell to shut up. Seems you only want one side to speak, at that is your side. "

hcfa2d* wrote on Nov 21, 2009 7:23 AM:

" Thank you for saying so articulately what I firmly believe! Another thing to remember is that people may feel secure in their job and home but many of us are just one major illness away from financial devastation. Many have lost jobs and their health care coverage when facing major long term illnesses. COBRA helps some but many can't afford to pay it once they have lost their livelihood! "

The Question wrote on Nov 21, 2009 9:17 AM:

" Beautifully put and unassailably logical, Susan. "

vakyin wrote on Nov 21, 2009 9:33 AM:

" Important, yes, but basic human rights?!?! No. Transportation is important too, but the government doesn't buy a car for everyone, at least not yet. "

BW wrote on Nov 21, 2009 9:37 AM:

" How can you even use the word "GOD" since you deny His existence? I presume it's just your usual mocking manner of expression. Sad. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 21, 2009 10:16 AM:

" A "socialist" mentality is one that says, "If we all stick together, we will all be better off". "Anti-social" mentality says "I've got mine, screw you".

Socialist mentality is the reason why we are able to have public roads, parks, libraries, fire, police, military and child protective services, among a host of other advantages "civilized" societies offer.

I believe anyone and everyone who is sick should have access to the same best medical care available, no matter who they are. If we don't allow the diabetic access to diagnostic and medical treatment up front (for one example), then we end up paying far more on the back end after they experience easily preventable loss of eyesight, limbs and kidneys. We're all paying for each other one way or the other anyway, whether we understand we're doing so or not.

The Amish eliminate health unsurance middlemen, stick together, chip in and take care of each other when one amongst them falls ill or is in an accident..and so should we. If united together into the largest protective pool possible, we would all have a chance to create the best health care at the best price with the most transparency. This is something we will never be able to do as long as we are divided and conquered in mulititudes of aptly named risk groups. We could save millions of needlessly devastated lives and hundreds of billions of currently wasted health care dollars each and every year if only we would unite as one nation, under God, with liberty and health care justice for all.

Call it whatever you want, I'm for that.

The only choice anyone wants or needs as far as coverage is concerned is to be covered if we need it. If we were all in the same group under the same rules (like every other civilized nation, where if you're sick, you're covered) we would for the first time be able to choose freely among licensed practitioners, and would no longer have to sue each other constantly over who has to pay the medical bills. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 21, 2009 10:35 AM:

" It doesn't matter if health care is "a" right. It simply IS right, and to deny health care to any person who needs it is inhumane, immoral and wrong.

If we agreed to cover everyone, we could easily find a way to make it affordable just like every other civilized nation on Earth (but ours) does now. My suggestion is to eliminate unnecessary, greedy, immoral middlemen and utilize efficiencies of scale (i.e. use common business sense).

And I'm really glad we stick together, chip in and build collective, socialist, "free" public roads to drive on. I'd hate to have to build my own highways all by myself...and I'd hate to have to pay tolls to support additional profits that privatization would cost. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 21, 2009 11:21 AM:

" Jrhendren said, "I am talking about those who know better, but just don't care".

Most people know that denying health care to a sick person is wrong, but here in the United States, they just don't care. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 21, 2009 11:24 AM:

" BW: WWJD? "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 21, 2009 1:48 PM:

" Great letter, Susan. I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question of why so many groups such as AARP, AMA, ANA and several hospital groups are supporting health care reform, if the idea is so bad? It seems like the main objectors are the insurance companies, and the GOP of course.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Dems holding out come from states that have giant insurance companies, such as Connecticut and Nebraska.

I would also add that we are the only industrial nation in the world that doesn't have guaranteed health care for all it's citizens. That seems sinful to me. "

Danny Boy wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:14 PM:

" If people want health insurance they should get a job and earn it.
---------------------------------------
Unemployment 11.5%...Actual, figures more like 17%....

Susan, you can make the same statement, for someone who might have ate bacon all thier life, and now have colon problems, are they to blame, since it's not a "sin" to eat bacon, but it is a sin to smoke, or have a wine?

When you're sick....you want healed, not regret. or punished.

As for jobs, if you worked for 25 years at a factory, running a machine, now they close, are you going to blame the worker who took the job to support his family, that he should be punished?, because he couldn't go to College, and prepare for a layoff?...Now he is 55 or older, and he should have known better?.....Shame on you !! "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:46 PM:

" Mr. Hendren I have never told anyone to "shut up", nor have I discouraged them from freely speaking. Unless you consider speaking about with a better argument than they have discouraging! I didn't mention you by name because I didn't want to embarass you any more than you already have for yourself. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:48 PM:

" Grow up BW note I put the phrase in paranthesis (sp?) as an example of what some people say. For me I am the "luck of the draw" type. How dare you call yourself a Christian! "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:51 PM:

" Vakyin if "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are considered human rights as declared in our Constitution than health care in this complex world is a part of the package, as necessary as safe drinking water, clean air, and a safe food and drug supply, IF one wants to live and pursue their happiness. "

BW wrote on Nov 21, 2009 5:01 PM:

" Shump, Who are you to "How Dare" anyone? I am a Christian and I am moved to express righteous indignation at your spewing of falsehoods. Just who do you think you are? Get over yourself. Truth be known, I really don't care about you or your thoughts one way or another and, I suspect, many others feel the same way. "

BW wrote on Nov 21, 2009 5:02 PM:

" Well, Bernie, if you knew Jesus, you would know the answer to your question. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 21, 2009 8:02 PM:

" jrhendren:"It is of a Socialist mentality to take from those who have and give to those who do not. "

I've been telling you folks that Jesus
was a liberal, and that's what he told the rich man, (paraphrased) "Sell all thou ownest and give it to the poor".
So obviously you believe Jesus was a
Socialist.
Congratulations for finally reaching the
truth. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 22, 2009 12:02 AM:

" It is my sincerest hope the democrats get their health care 'deform.' My hope comes from American's need for lots and lots of PAIN to bring them back to their senses after this current, unfettered race toward socialism by the democrats ...

Currently, their is a dollar- carry-trade phenomenon going on in world markets. Because the dollar and American interest rates are so low, investors are drifting to over-valued foreign currencies to make their traditional profits on the margins. When US interest rates rise or the currency shifts these investors will be over leveraged. Once those over-valued currencies deflate watch for an international credit crunch, much like what's happened domestically in the US, to occur. As foreign credit to the US drys up there'll be even less ability for American producers to buy raw materials toward basic staples. This will lead most noticeably to shortages at your local stores much like those that occurred in the former USSR some 25 to 30 years (pre-Perestroika) and the Weimar Republic some 90 years ago.

Once it starts watch all the fun (pain)!

Then the democrat health-care 'deform' won't be of much consideration to anybody. Folks'll be worrying about not having food on the table from shortages... "

medic57 wrote on Nov 22, 2009 6:32 AM:

" How dare you call yourself a Christian!

Why not Susan, you wouldn't know one if it jumped up and bit you in the a$$.

Harry

You're gonna love the new health care program, especially when they fund part of it with half a trillion dollars of medicare money.

Is the child born with fetal alcohol syndrome or some learning disability responsible for his/her health condition?

Susan, that child wouldn't even be born if left up to you, would it? "

prairieguy wrote on Nov 22, 2009 8:45 AM:

" What do the politicians who are against government health care think the inalienable right of "life" think our founding fathers meant, if not helping the sick to keep from DYING? "

Hound Dog wrote on Nov 22, 2009 10:36 AM:

" We are now a step closer to bankruptcy, thanks to Reid and the Democrats. They have already started their ploys of rationing. Women in this country are as outraged as are the seniors. "Our change" is coming. "

Matt Toon wrote on Nov 22, 2009 1:50 PM:

" Forty-four years ago the Republicans used pretty much the same arguments to denounce Medicare that they are now using to try to kill the national health care bill. One of those attacks on Medicare was that it would be "socialist." If the Republicans were correct about that, then socialism has prevented the deaths of tens of millions of this nation's senior citizens. We can be quite certain that without Medicare over the past four decades many millions of our older citizens would have died prematurely for lack of proper medical care. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 22, 2009 3:06 PM:

" Cut the BS Medic, whether a child is to be born with fetal alcohol syndrom or with some other birth defect is the option of the mother, that is what freedom of choice is all about, the freedom for a woman to choose to carry a fetus to term or to not carry a fetus to term. It is your a$$ that is getting bitten time and time again by your own foolish arguments. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 22, 2009 3:11 PM:

" BW your words on these threads over the past several months shows that you don't have anything to be self-rightous about. I suggest you stick to the topics at hand and quit the personal attacks. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 22, 2009 3:15 PM:

" Oh and BW I will even double dare you. You and many others on these threads (Medic, Mr. Hendren, Mr. Vanatta, BW)show us time and time again that you don't practice what you preach and help contribute to Christianity's bad reputation/name. There is a good reason why many college students impressions of Christians are that they are self-rightous, hypocritical, hateful, ignorant, and foolish. "

BW wrote on Nov 22, 2009 4:40 PM:

" Shump, do you double dog dare me? LOL. What a fake you are. "

BW wrote on Nov 22, 2009 4:41 PM:

" Shump, I'm not self righteous. That's your province. "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 22, 2009 7:31 PM:

" Bird cage liners anyone? Hey, the birds need quality health care too! Liners could also make great Xmas gifts, especially in THESE times!
LOL! "

medic57 wrote on Nov 22, 2009 8:55 PM:

" Susan

If those women kept their legs closed, they wouldn't have to worry about term limits.

There is a good reason why many college students impressions of Christians are that they are self-rightous, hypocritical, hateful, ignorant, and foolish.

You're right Susan, there is a good reason, you take young pliable minds and mix them with idiot liberal professors, and what do you come up with, why you of course. Tell me Susan, has the US gotten less, or more moral in the past 50 years? Is there more crime or less? Is there more booze and drugs available or less? Is teen pregnancy up or down? Unwed mothers (and fathers)? More divorce or less? Open Homosexuality or closet?

You CAN'T answer to the positive to ANY of those questions. Now, what is the common denominator? Extremely Liberal teachers, professors, leaders and laws. When people had a moral sense about them, these things still existed, but in much smaller numbers.

There you go Susan, deny those facts without using religion for a crutch. "

devilishangel61401 wrote on Nov 22, 2009 10:25 PM:

" What happens if you don't know if your child will have any sort of disibility? My son was diagnosed with autisim and MR ( the paper won't let me print the "r" word) at the age of 2 and a half, my daughter who has several delays was not diagnosed with developmental delays till the age of 4 months then the ADHD and Cognitive Emotional Developmental Disorders came at the age of 5 and half years.

Even if I had known my kids would have had those delays I would have carried them to term regardless ( but that's me) my point is the kids are not responsible for their conditions but their parents aren't always either but try telling that to the insurance companies.. ( it gets you no where I know from exprience)

I do wonder why the goverment doesn't do health care like auto insurance, remember when you could only get car insurance from your local agent?? Today you can buy insurance from anyplace in the country. It makes car insurance competitve and gives people the chance to shop for something more affordable. The goverment could easily do this with health insurance too. "

Becky wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:23 AM:

" medic57 wrote on Nov 22, 2009 8:55 PM:

" Susan

If those women kept their legs closed, they wouldn't have to worry about term limits."

Huh??? I don't get it. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:41 AM:

" I've done my homework and followed the money. The main problem by far is the 31% of our health care dollars that our uniquely profit-before-people health unsurance industry is skimming off the top and away from desperately needed medical care. It is the major reason why our current non-system is unaffordable, unsustainable and immoral. Get rid of it (unnecessary middleman), unite everyone (utilizing efficiencies of scale) into one public pool under one set of nondiscriminatory rules (like Medicare only even better) and we are on our way to solving most of the other problems (lack of choice, lack of coverage, too many lawsuits, too much cost) inherent in our divided-and-conquered health care mess. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:57 AM:

" You're right Susan, there is a good reason, you take young pliable minds and mix them with idiot liberal professors, and what do you come up with........
---------------------

Well...you just made my day, medic57. Peace be with you. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:57 AM:

" Becky I don't get Medic either, but he seems to think (I think) that women are the cause of many of the ills in this world, and that rape, pregnancy, whatever befalls them is all their fault. (they had it coming) "

Becky wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:58 AM:

" And by the way Medic, for a woman to be in that position, wouldn't a man be there encouraging her? Isn't he just as responsible as she? "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:02 AM:

" Medic what the common denominator is is Christianity, and Christians that think that pretending to be born again and a Christian makes someone a good person. Christian churches have never been denied the right to teach moral and civic responsibility and since a majority of Americans still claim a Christian afiliation it would seem that Christian churches, ministers and the churched are to blame for the deplorable lack of morality. As for those college kids they come into school with those attitudes. I suspect if the poll was done with high school kids it would come back the same. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:04 AM:

" BW you were the one weren't you that said you were filled with self-rightous indignation? "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:06 AM:

" Bernie thanks for sticking to and putting forth the facts, the raw numbers. They should open a few eyes and minds. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:08 AM:

" Get rid of it (unnecessary middleman), unite everyone (utilizing efficiencies of scale) into one public pool under one set of nondiscriminatory rules
-------------------------

Good job Bernie... economies/efficiencies of scale would be a good place to start...but an eventual move toward economies/efficiencies of SCOPE will be best. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:34 AM:

" Jesus or anyone who believes what he taught could not sit by and do nothing while a sick person went without medical care in the richest nation on Earth. How could anyone with a Christian heart defend our current unaffordable, immoral and indefensible health care non-system that discriminates against sick people? The only reason we do not allow discrimination against Americans over 65 regarding health coverage is because socialized Medicare exists. "

mattoonvoice wrote on Nov 23, 2009 9:11 AM:

" Susan,

Are you you willing to use your country's money to provide health care to ALL the people in the world or just inside the boundaries of the US? Because I too wish ALL people could have access to health care. Like those dying of malaria, malnutrition, and other diseases that kill millions around the world. We live in a world full of disease and sickness.

So when you say... "Health care and health insurance are not rewards for virtuous behavior, the are necessities and a human right in this complex world we live in. "

I just wonder if you will include all 6.6 billion humans who need quality health care. Because it's needed globally.

Your argument sounds great that we should care for ALL people, not just those ho have jobs and can afford health care.

But I'd like to know how you propose to really provide care for ALL people? I assume you would want that. Geographical boundaries should not play a factor in your line of reasoning to care for humanity.

So...are we being selfish with and inhumane with the current health care bill on the table because it only speaks to proving care for the US. Or should we think more humane like you, and open this up to 6.6 billion people.

What say you? "

BW wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:06 AM:

" Shump (8:04 am), I see that one of your many major flaws is that you just don't read well. The only one here who is "self-righteous" is you. There are remedial reading classes available that you could take and add them to your resume along with your umpteen yeats taking classes at EIU. You reading disability helps explain why it took you so long. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:08 AM:

" Mattoonvoice one battle at a time. Eventually we will see the need for world wide health care, Aids, H1N1, was it Ebola ?, these diseases developed in underdeveloped countries and have spread to our country. There was a PBS program recently about endangered animals and starving people eating bush meat which included chimps, bonabos, orangs, any wild meat they could capture and sell. AND that is one ways diseases jump from animals to man. World Wide our population is out of control, there are more people now than this planet can handle: pollution, disease and poverty spawn wars (which we are seeing in Africa and saw in Bosnia). The have nots can't help but see in this global age what the haves have and the resentments grow. Until we wake up and start thinking "globally and acting locally" these problems will get worse and this planet will self-destruct. "

joe hardy wrote on Nov 23, 2009 1:30 PM:

" At what point did it become a fundamental right for one group of people to have their health care provided for them by another group of people? "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 3:41 PM:

" Sorry BW I have never had the pleasure of taking a class at EIU. I have degrees from UNM and UofI. I haven't claimed self-rightous indignation only you have used that word. You just can't accept that I have put together a better argument than you have. Perhaps that is because I stick to the facts! "

BW wrote on Nov 23, 2009 3:54 PM:

" Shump, if you can find the word "self-righteous" in my comment of 11/21/09 at 5:01 P.M., I would be amazed. It is not there but is only a figment of your imagination and a result of your sloppy reading. "

BW wrote on Nov 23, 2009 4:03 PM:

" Shump, I thought you had stated previously that you went to EIU. My mistake. I couldn't challenge you because, unlike some people on these blogs, I don't save comments for later reference. "

BW wrote on Nov 23, 2009 4:07 PM:

" Shumpy, now you're calling me a liar. Why don't you just go "Na-Na-Na-Na-Na" and get it over with? That way you can go on back to your playpen before you're missed. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:00 PM:

" It doesn't matter if health care is a fundamental right or not. What is right is sticking together and taking care of each other. What is wrong is watching sensless, easily preventable human suffering and doing nothing to stop it. The success of any society is judged by how well we take care of the least fortunate among us.

At least that is what Jesus taught. "

Bps wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:24 PM:

" The majority of Americans understand how bad the Dummy-crats health takeover plan(s) are and according to Rasmussens latest poll:

Just 38% of voters now favor the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats.

THATS THE LOWEST LEVEL OF SUPPORT MEASURED FOR THE PLAN IN NEARLY TWO DOZEN TRACKING POLLS CONDUCTED SINCE JUNE.

56% NOW OPPOSE THE PLAN.

21% Strongly Favor the plan
43% are Strongly Opposed.

Anyone wanna bet that the Dummy-thugs will still find a way to ram this abomination down our throats? "

Bernie wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:52 PM:

" BW, Jesus must be holding his head in his hands in sorrow at how you interpret what he tried to teach. He would never treat other human beings like you do. I feel sorrow for anyone who has to live with such a mean spirit. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:57 PM:

" Apparently what too many Americans do not understand is how immoral and excessivley expensive our uniquely American profit-before-people private health unsurance is. "

BW wrote on Nov 23, 2009 6:48 PM:

" Bernie, you're wrong. I don't live with shump. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:04 PM:

" HMO's were touted as the greatest thing to ever happen to health care, at least until sick people started joining, then the carriers started canceling them. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:23 PM:

" BW wrote on Nov 21, 2009 5:01 PM:

" Shump, Who are you to "How Dare" anyone? I am a Christian and I am moved to express righteous indignation at your spewing of falsehoods. Just who do you think you are? Get over yourself. Truth be known, I really don't care about you or your thoughts one way or another and, I suspect, many others feel the same way. "

Sorry BW you're own words speak for you. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:26 PM:

" Oh and BW I guess it is back to the playpen for you. Now grow up, address the topic at hand, and quit attacking personalities. This health care issue isn't about me or about you it is about providing care for ALL Americans. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:32 PM:

" joe hardy wrote on Nov 23, 2009 1:30 PM:

" At what point did it become a fundamental right for one group of people to have their health care provided for them by another group of people? "

It became a right when someone else polluted my drinking water, or fouled the air with waste from their factory, that affected my health. It became a right when someone travelled abroad and brought back a new and unique disease that I had no protection against. It became a fundamental right when I could no longer grow my own food because jobs were in Big Cities not rural areas and I had to depend on commercial agriculture that use pesticides and herbicides in order to grow enough food to feed an out of control population and comprimised my health with their chemicals. I of course am using the "I" in the universal sense not the personal sense. "

Bps wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:14 PM:

" Bernie wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:41 AM:
" I've done my homework and followed the money. The main problem by far is the 31% of our health care dollars that our uniquely profit-before-people health unsurance industry is skimming off the top and away from desperately needed medical care. It is the major reason why our current non-system is unaffordable, unsustainable and immoral.
-------------------
So Bernie, who created the current mess?

According to the trade association Americas Health Insurance Plans, managed care is nearly ubiquitous in the USA with 90 percent of insured Americans now enrolled in plans with some form of managed care (which can be directly traced to policys and procedures from the HMO Act of 1973).

Lets see what the father of the current system had to say in 1978:

"As the author of the first HMO bill ever to pass the Senate, I find this spreading support for HMOs truly gratifying.

"HMOs have proven themselves again and again to be effective and efficient mechanisms for delivering health care of the highest quality. HMOs cut hospital utilization by an average of 20 to 25 percent compared to the fee-for-service sector. They cut the total cost of health care by anywhere from 10 to 30 percent. And they accomplish these savings without compromising the quality of care they provide their members.

"In fact, many medical experts argue that the peer review built into group practice in the HMO setting promotes a quality of care superior to that found in the traditional health care system."

Source- U.S. Senate, Committee on Human Resources, Subcommittee on Health and Scientific Research, "Health Maintenance Organization Act Amendments of 1978," March 3, 1978 (Washington: Government Printing Office, 1978), pp. 1-3.
----

Well Bernie do you know who the father of as you say uniquely profit-before-people health unsurance industry was?

Ted Kennedy.

Man he wasnt even close was he?

Yep the same Ted Kennedy who was kept alive for almost a full year because of his wealth, position and his PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE.

During his ABC informercial on Health Care, President Obama responded to a lady who questioned him considering her 99 year old mom and whether the government would deprive her of the pacemaker she needed?

He said maybe she shouldn't have the surgery and be given painkillers.

So what you think Bernie, do you think under the latest greatest gooberment bill that a non-elite will receive the kind of expensive surgery and medications ol teddy did or will they just be given some extra strong painkillers and sent home to die? "

joe hardy wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:33 PM:

" shump, although you may be inventing reason why you think you need health care, you still haven't explained to me why the cost of it should come out of my paycheck. "

redwhiteblue wrote on Nov 23, 2009 9:49 PM:

" Ms. Humphreys, the flaw I see with your argument is that we don't have a 'right' to health insurance, not a constitutional one anyway. Should we as a country try to work out a plan that provides for everyone without expecting that to place an onerous burden on others? Yes. But the plan being offered by the Democrats is not it. They are willfully ignoring common sense approaches, input from the Republicans and from their constituents who have strongly voiced their opposition to this mess of a bill. Anyone who proposes reform but is not willing to have it apply to themselves and also states that they are willing to lose Congressional seats over it knows that it is not a good plan. This all boils down to control, control of the banks, the car companies, the housing industry and on and on to our health and health care. Don't fool yourself for a minute that what they are doing right now in Washington, DC is in any way, shape or form what's truly best for all of us or that they care. Create even more of a welfare society and make the people dependent on you, make it impossible to reap benefits from your success and voila! you have us all right where you want us. Sad but true. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 23, 2009 10:11 PM:

" I'm not sure how providing roads, fire and police protection is part of a socialist society. But I do know the analogy of the Amish that a poster provided does not fit in with the letter writer's scenario. In fact it does the opposite. Yes, the Amish do take care of each other WITHOUT government interference. And this happens every day in our society where churches, philanthropic organizations, etc. take care of those less fortunate relying on each other not some government entity to give those who need it a leg up with the hope that they will use that to improve their lot. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:32 PM:

" Wonder why groups like the AARP and AMA support this horrible plan? Three words: Follow the money. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:49 PM:

" Bernie wrote on Nov 21, 2009 11:21 AM:
" Jrhendren said, "I am talking about those who know better, but just don't care".

Most people know that denying health care to a sick person is wrong, but here in the United States, they just don't care. "

WOW! You missed the point altogether. I said right off the bat something needs to be done with health care. I'm not trying to deny, just trying to make sure I have the rights my family has fought to give me. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:56 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:46 PM:
" Mr. Hendren I have never told anyone to "shut up", nor have I discouraged them from freely speaking. Unless you consider speaking about with a better argument than they have discouraging! I didn't mention you by name because I didn't want to embarass you any more than you already have for yourself. "

NO, you might not of actually said "shut up", more like that they need to keep quite because they didn't know what they were talking about. That you are "enlightened" and therefore know better then everyone else. As for not quoting me, what do I have to be embarrassed about? It is a valid point that not one for the Obamacare will answer truthfully. They just come at you with, "You just don't care about others." Which is not true. Wanting to make sure my family has the best they can have is not a crime, except in your eyes. You think letting my family suffer for someone who will not work, or just doesn't care about themselves is okay, and should be done. Well sorry to disappoint you but my family comes before you and your kind. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:03 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:51 PM:
" Vakyin if "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are considered human rights as declared in our Constitution than health care in this complex world is a part of the package, as necessary as safe drinking water, clean air, and a safe food and drug supply, IF one wants to live and pursue their happiness. "

Susan "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are not in the Constitution, it is in the Declaration of Independence. Also it is the "pursuit" of happiness, not a guarantee to be happy. Also the courts have said, that because the "unalienable right" are not in the Constitution they are not enforceable by the courts. Hope you enjoyed your American History lesson. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:06 AM:

" Cognitus wrote on Nov 21, 2009 8:02 PM:
" jrhendren:"It is of a Socialist mentality to take from those who have and give to those who do not. "

I've been telling you folks that Jesus
was a liberal, and that's what he told the rich man, (paraphrased) "Sell all thou ownest and give it to the poor".
So obviously you believe Jesus was a
Socialist.
Congratulations for finally reaching the
truth. "

You might want to use all the Scriptures and not just parts. You might also want to use this lesson of Christ in the correct context. He was using it to point out how it is harder for the rich to give up what they believe is important for Heaven. Good try, bad result for you though. You also might read about what is said to do for those who can, but won't. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:23 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 22, 2009 3:15 PM:
" Oh and BW I will even double dare you. You and many others on these threads (Medic, Mr. Hendren, Mr. Vanatta, BW)show us time and time again that you don't practice what you preach and help contribute to Christianity's bad reputation/name. There is a good reason why many college students impressions of Christians are that they are self-rightous, hypocritical, hateful, ignorant, and foolish. "

Her she goes again with her make believe. You know nothing about me, so you do not know what I do and don't do lady. You hypocrite, you will tell someone who a Christian should live, yet you don't even believe in God. That makes you worse then anyone you named. I've had taken out every argument you have ever thrown at me, usually with your own words. You make up stories, or Google till you find someone who agrees with your view point, never doing any research yourself. You even try and take the Googled persons words and claim them as your own. Don't lie we have all caught you doing it. The church and Christians give more money to charities and foreign countries then any other organization.
"In the U.S., which is notably religious among wealthy Western nations, about a third of all charitable giving goes to houses of worship. Some of that money, in turn, goes to projects that have an obvious benefit to the needy, like soup kitchens." - Forbes That is from what is recorded, from the offering. The those of a religious nature also give more to secular groups too.
"Of the households surveyed that participated in all categories of charitable giving, 58.9 percent gave to both religious congregations and secular organization, 31.4 percent gave to secular organizations only and 9.7 percent gave to religious congregations only. When limited to households giving to religious congregations, 85 percent of those donors gave to secular organizations as well.

Survey respondents who gave to both religious and secular groups also tended to give the most money, averaging $2,247 annually per household. "They are the most generous by far," - National Council of Churches and Independent Sector, a nonprofit coalition of more than 700 national organizations, foundations and corporate philanthropy programs.

The only bad reputation and name is from those like you who believe themselves to be better and smarter then everyone else. To those who the church helps and have interacted with Christians, they have a good reputation. When you go in with a preconceived notion, like you do, then you will have the outcome you expect. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:26 AM:

" Becky wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:58 AM:
" And by the way Medic, for a woman to be in that position, wouldn't a man be there encouraging her? Isn't he just as responsible as she? "

So then you believe the man should have a say in the abortion process? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:30 AM:

" Bernie do you consider yourself a Christian, or are you like Susan a non-believer who mocks God, by trying to use his Word against him? "

Bps wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:36 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 21, 2009 1:48 PM:
" Great letter, Susan. I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question of why so many groups such as AARP, AMA, ANA and several hospital groups are supporting health care reform, if the idea is so bad?
--------------

Lets just take the first one- AARP

According to a recent Pew survey Just 31 Percent of Those Over 65 Supports the Health Care Legislation and these are the very same people that AARP claims to represent.

Hum, why in the world would AARP go against the majority of its members and support Obama Care?

Reason 1:

Barry Rand, the chief executive of AARP gave the maximum $4,600 to Obamas election campaign and an additional $4,300 to the Obama Victory Fund, a joint fundraising entity of Obama and the Democratic National Committee. He is a long term supporter of the Democrats.

Reason 2:

AARP received an $18 million grant in the economic stimulus package for a job training program that has not created any jobs, according to the Obama administration's Recovery.gov website.

Reason #3

AARP also stands to greatly benefit financially if the health care legislation passes, because seniors losing benefits because of the cuts to Medicare Advantage will be forced to buy Medigap policies, WHICH IS THE MAIN SOURCE OF AARP REVENUE.

AARP collects royalties on "Medigap insurance," coverage that helps pay some of the health-care costs that Medicare doesn't cover.

When seniors enrolled in Medicare Advantage plans, they often drop Medigap policies. The switch slashes Medigap revenues and simultaneously negatively impacts AARP royalties from Medigap insurance.
. . . .

Hundreds of millions for one Louisiana Senator's vote.

AARP 18 million payoff plus a huge payoff that goes on forever if the plan passes.

Wanna bet there are payoffs for the rest old HP mentions?

Step right up folks, the sleaze just keeps on coming. "

Katty wrote on Nov 24, 2009 3:22 AM:

" Personal health depends partially on the social structure of one's life. The maintenance of strong social relationships is linked to good health conditions, longevity, productivity, and a positive attitude. This is due to the fact that positive social interaction as viewed by the participant increases many chemical levels in the brain which are linked to personality and intelligence traits.http://www.fitness-mad.com "

Bernie wrote on Nov 24, 2009 7:13 AM:

" The Amish govern themselves in such a way that no one in need goes without. We don't. If we did, or if our churches did, fifty million Americans would not be living without any health coverage at all.

I don't want government interfering in my life, but when lives are in danger because the "free" market doesn't work, then we the people desperately need the protection that (fortunately or not) only government can provide.

If you think access to an ER equals health coverage, then try the following experiment. Just for fun, tell the people in the ER next time you have an emergency and need to go there that you are uninsured. If you do, a recent study concludes that you will be twice as likely to die.

Also ask yourselves how many Americans over age 65 would be willing to give up their Medicare protection and take their chances on their own in our "free" market health unsurance non-system. (Hello?)

I agree that what the Democrats are offering is a farce, a sham and a scam on our nation that is unaffordable, unsustainable and immoral. The reason why is because they are offering the problem (private health unsurance) as the solution.

Note to politicians: the problem is not the solution; and forcing everyone to have to feed the "beast that is the problem" will not solve the problem but will make it worse.

What we need is everyone united under the same not-for-profit public plan. We need Medicare for ALL, and we needed it generations ago.

Public insurance utilizing private care. That's what we need. It would save at least $450 Billion dollars per year, 45,000 easily preventable deaths, countless easily preventable disablilities, hundreds of thousands of unnecessary bankruptcies, and prevent tens of millions of Americans from living in absolute daily and unrelenting terror.

Al Qaeda can only pray to wreak a fraction of the havoc upon our people that our uniquely American health unsurance industry does today. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:08 AM:

" Some goods and services work just fine as Free Market products, while others (like health coverage) not so much. Some things are (or should be) not-for-profit public services. Here in this country we don't seem to be able to tell which is which.

Balanced Markets work much better than totally Free ones. Free Markets left unfettered often run amok and become horribly out-of-balance, leading to the return of Robber Barons and Great Depressions. Free Market success depends upon whether or not the choice to purchase a good or product is also "free" to begin with. Some goods and services operate under Captive (i.e. "have to have, or else" sort of thing) Market rules. Free Market rules break down and don't work when used for Captive Market public goods and services.

Left unfettered, a "free" market can run roughshod over and destroy any sense of balance. When it does, we need competent and benevolent leadership to set the situation right again.

"Socialized" goods and services are anything we work together on for the Good of the Whole. We don't have any "right" to libraries, roads and parks either...but if we didn't work together as a society to provide them equally to all, most would have to do without any.

The sort of nation where too many say, "I have mine so forget my neighbor" is not a better society in which to live, but rather a worse one. That is the opposite of what Jesus (and the Amish) try to teach us. "

BW wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:09 AM:

" Shump, everything you post is all about YOU. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:30 AM:

" Joehardy the reason is because it is in your best interest to see that others are covered: if you want to stay healthy and if you want to keep your medical costs and insurance costs from skyrocketing and if you want to have a medicare program when you retire and if you want our nation to stay strong and competitive and..... As I said disease doesn't respect man made boundaries. I hope you (or your uninsured neighbor or guy on the plane or bus or in the grocery store) don't get H1N1 this winter or the next exotic virus that comes down the road. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:32 AM:

" To Red,white,blue I am not surprised that you don't understand what socialism means. I suggest you get yourself a dictionary and then think about it. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:41 AM:

" Oh and RWB the one without commas if the plan from the Democrats isn't IT, why haven't the Repubs put out a plan of their own? There has been nothing to stop them other than their own laziness. This gripe that the Dems have left them out is childish, they have been invited and encouraged to participate and have refused. They reap what they have sown. "

unknownjoe wrote on Nov 24, 2009 9:49 AM:

" Very difficult issue indeed. Health Care as a universal human right, it's a stretch. Universal Health Care as something that is a good thing to do, a very high minded ideal. Fits that category much better. It is however a jagged little pill to swallow in the face of the recession that we are in. Ten percent of the working population is without work. The governments estimates on economic growth arent quite as good as what they initially thought. So, it seems the priority here for the government should be to focus on economic recovery, creating jobs, and getting the debt under control instead of pushing universal coverage. The unfortunate thing about this great experiment we call The United States is that it is bankrolled by the working poor and the middle class. This administration is starting to cut into the live wood as they continue to push on this health care issue. A brilliant strategy. Let us make the masses suffer a little while longer until they are ready to accept any agenda that we throw at them. That only works so far. This stimulus bill passed early in the year has relatively little or no effect on the economy. It did however give the masses the illusion that something was being done. The blame Bush excuse will only work so far. I do believe that is a dead horse at this point. In the eyes of the majority of americans no one cares about health care. They care about working. Would it not be prudent for our legislators and president to focus more on getting us out of the economic stalemate that we are in, than focusing on spending more money that we do not have. At the very least, more jobs means more tax money that may a universal health care plan more palatable. It does however appear that our legislators are more interested in political points instead of doing what is necessary. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:09 PM:

" Republicans had years of total control under which they could have passed any health coverage reform they wished. Instead they chose to ignore the problem and pretend it doesn't exist.

AARP makes more money from selling private health insurance than from membership dues. That's why it supports Obama and Democrats' fake health coverage reform...because more than anything else, it is a pricey piece of corporate welfare for the health unsurance industry at public taxpayer expense. Honest reform would cover everyone far more reliably, comprehensively and cost-effectively while saving hundreds of billions of health care dollars per year compared to what we're spending now.

Now we're spending far too much for health insurance and getting far too little real protection in return. If united together into one transparent not-for-profit public pool, we could easily spend less and get more, like every other civilized nation on Earth (but ours) does now. "

sapient wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:13 PM:

" Everyone needs healthcare. Everyone needs a home. Everyone needs food. Everyone needs clothing. Everyone needs an education. Why doesn't the government just give everyone everything that they need. Whoops, I'm too late. The left has already thought of that and that is what they are trying to do. Let's all stop working and just let the government take care of us. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:39 PM:

" Three good reasons why we should offer the same best available health care to anyone who is sick, no matter who they are:

1. We're collectively paying for everyone in the country anyway whether we realize it or not. Paying up front for preventative care in the short term saves everyone wasted lives, productivity and dollars in the long run;

2. Uninsured people can be contagious. How long do we want our store clerks, hair dressers, child care workers, wait persons, etc. walking around spreading those nasty germs before they are able to see a doctor?

3. One of our awful uninsured or under-insured people just might be taking up OUR valuable space in an ER (where wait times are most critical) with their gosh-darned easily preventable emergencies just when WE need it most.

Health coverage is one instance where saving money and morality are on the same side of the equation. We could easily save both lives and dollars by doing what is the moral and right thing to do. Health coverage reform is (or could be) a win-win situation.

Honest health coverage reform definitely is win-win.

What we have now is win-lose (health unsurers win, people lose). What the Democrats are proposing is more of the same ol' same ol' tried but untrue, broken non-system (not real reform). I'm trying my best to tell everyone who will listen that what they are proposing won't work, and will cost (waste) LOTS more money. The reason why is because both parties are sacrificing the truth to the almighty campaign finance dollar.

One more time: honest reform would work, plus save hundreds of billions of currently wasted health care dollars each and every year after year.

American lives and our economy depend upon it. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 1:07 PM:

" BW looking out for the needs of others, speaking up for those who can't or won't speak for themselves, saying that ALL the worlds religions are as good or as bad as the individual makes them, is not All about ME. I have yet to hear you speak up for anyone other than your self. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 1:48 PM:

" The best headline of the day comes from the Onion: "Like H**l I'm Going To Let Some Black President Help Me Pay For Dialysis." "

BW wrote on Nov 24, 2009 5:32 PM:

" I see it clearly now, Shump. You are truly a saint. How could I have been so blind? The world surely owes you a humanitarian award. Pay no attention to the Shump behind the curtain. "

ernurse wrote on Nov 24, 2009 5:40 PM:

" There are some basic rules and definitions about rights: A right is something you are innately entitled to based upon belonging to something (ie being an American). In order for something to be a right, it cannot impeded upon the rights of others.

Here are the problems with healthcare being a "right." There is nothing in the constitution, the bill of rights (there's that word again), or any laws in the US that states that every American is entitled to health insurance or healthcare. Making healthcare a right impedes upon my rights. I work as a Registered Nurse in a hospital where the government tells me (and the hospital and physicians) what we can charge for services. Therefore the government controls our pay and the costs of our services.

Healthcare if no different from any other industry. We (as healthcare providers) decided to work in healthcare because we want to help people, but also because it pays our bills. The government does not tell McDonald's what they can charge nor does it tell Wal-Mart what it can charge for its goods. The consumers control the cost of those goods. I (my hospital) should be allowed to charge whatever we want for services. If you don't like the cost or the quality of the services, then you can chose somewhere else to get them!

Healthcare if not a right and should never become one. "

unknownjoe wrote on Nov 24, 2009 6:19 PM:

" Susan, still waiting for you to sell your pristine swamp land and pay someones Dr. bills. As soon as you do that, I will be the first to sign up for Obamacare. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 24, 2009 7:23 PM:

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:21 PM:

" So hospitals built and sustained with public money and public donations are supposed to be able to gouge people's eyes out by charging just as much as they like, eh, nursey? Providing health care is no different than flipping greasy hamburgers, is it?
Short-sighted greed bags like you are a big part of the reason why the health care system in this country is collapsing. It's just too bad you're not flipping hamburgers, and charging whatever you want for them. It's where you belong. "

what wrote on Nov 24, 2009 11:44 PM:

" America is treading in deep water, the sharks know, they await the evening. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 25, 2009 5:02 AM:

" As a former teacher (current small business owner), I try to imagine what it would have been like to look a parent in the face and tell them that I would not teach their child because they did not have enough money.

---------------------------------

You didn't have to, you had a union contract that guaranteed you a pay raise even though you weren't more efficient, productive, or profitable. "

Matt Toon wrote on Nov 25, 2009 5:24 AM:

" There actually is a "right" to health care. Here is why -- In 1948, when Harry Truman was president, the U.S., along with other nations, formally ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Among many other things it says that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services ..." These rights were accepted by the U.S. twice -- both in 1948 and again in the Helsinki accords of 1975 during the presidency of Republican Gerald Ford. Yes, medical care is a right adopted by the U.S. in a formal agreement 61 years ago and then again in 1975. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 25, 2009 5:26 AM:

" 'greasy hamburgers, health care system, and 'It's where you belong.'

------------------

Woooooooow...I think TQ's gonna have a nervous breakdown.

Hey TQ, why don't you take Thursday and Friday off from these blogs so you don't have a complete mental collapse?

You can take these days off while others are celebrating Thanksgiving.

We know your mental capacities would be stressed if you acknowledged a holiday started by Calvinist Puritans/native Americans to thank GOD for their good fortune, so we'll just say you're taking those days off for mental health reasons! "

Joeblow wrote on Nov 25, 2009 5:27 AM:

" PEOPLE GET A GRIP HERE !!!!Its no wonder this country is in the shape it is.!!! Look at how we treat each other and act as if we hate our own neighbors. Everybody is to have their own oppinion, but can anyone get along anymore?? Talking about what we are teaching our children and who is teaching them ....If they look here they are not going to get a very good education.one is better off not speaking his mind if all he says is going to hurt others. Just Joeblowing!! "

Bernie wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:46 AM:

" I think ERNurse's attitude is a big part of the reason why uninsured people are twice as likely to die in an ER.

My father was an engineer for the highway department. He did not make as much money as he could have in the private sector, but he was extremely well paid and the benefits far better. He helped build roads that everyone drives on for "free" (publicly funded), and that are paid for according to ability. Than GOD public highways are not a money-making venture.

If your goal in life is to make as much money as possible, I think you need to get out of the business of helping people and into something else. We can't choose who our ER nurse is going to be, but you need to choose another profession. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:57 AM:

" I'd rather be what I am BW than what you are. If that makes me a saint than so be it. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:07 AM:

" ER Nurse when the snow falls this winter are you going to complain if the county and or city don't get the roads plowed quickly so you can get to work? Where in the Constitution does it say they have to keep the roads plowed for your convenience? Are you one of the first to scream bloody murder when a childs toy is allowed onto the market with a high lead content in its paint? Where in the Constitution does it say the government has to protect Consumers from unsafe products? Were you one of the ones that complained about the incompetency of the FDA for not getting the H1N1 out as promised? Where in the Constitution does it say the FEDS have to protect us against the flu? Oh and did you get the H1N1 flue shot this year? Where in the Constitution does it say that health workers are entitled to shots before children? Health care/insurance for ALL is as much a human right and is included as an obligation/task/job of the government in the Constitution as our rights to road safety, product safety and vaccinations in the case of pandemic disease. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:10 AM:

" Don't worry red,white,blue, your current insurance, Medicare, will be safe regardless of what happens. It seems that you've got yours and are upset that some others might get decent health care. Typical Republican attitude, I would add. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:31 AM:

" Susan, loved your little snide comment about my not knowing what socialism means. Your arrogance is appalling! But then there's this: (and I'm not sure who it was addressed to but then I'm stupid don't you know). You said:
Oh and RWB the one without commas if the plan from the Democrats isn't IT, why haven't the Repubs put out a plan of their own? There has been nothing to stop them other than their own laziness. This gripe that the Dems have left them out is childish, they have been invited and encouraged to participate and have refused. They reap what they have sown. "

That is just an outright lie. The Republicans have offered many amendments and proposals and have been shot down at every turn. They have offered a plan, one that was I believe about 200 pages, and it was totally ignored by the Dims and by the media. Maybe you should expand your horizons and read something besides liberal blogs. When you're not reading the Bible that is. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 25, 2009 8:37 AM:

" Sapient wrote: Let's all stop working and just let the government take care of us. "

Sadly Sapient, I think that's the plan. Of course, 'the government' in this case means taxing the rich until it doesn't pay any more to try to better your lot in life because you know of course that you don't deserve it but must be compassionate and share with those less fortunate (in other words those who won't get off their butts and help themselves). Oops my mean old conservative streak is showing isn't it? Of course I would call it common sense something not possessed by those on the left. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 25, 2009 10:06 AM:

" I'm not sure if our children have a constitutional right to an education either, but I gladly contribute a couple of thousand dollars every year in local taxes to make sure that every child has access, even though my own are long grown and moved out of the area.

The reason why is because it is simply better for everyone in our society to make sure that our children are educated, no matter who or how wealthy they are.

And it is simply better for everyone in our society to make sure our people are healthy, no matter who or how wealthy they are.

Dr. Martin Luther King said, "Of all forms of injustice, inequality in health care is the most shocking and inhumane". I agree. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:02 AM:

" ERNurse, the state recently forbade Carle Clinic from opening up another operating facility here, so there really isn't anywhere else to go locally. And the AMA makes sure there is a shortage of doctors. If health care was a free market, anyone who was smart enough and willing would able to become a physician. Sadly that is not the case here.

And health care is not like any other business. If you are sick, it is a Captive Market that does not work under Free Market rules.

If we want to figure out how to fund health care, we need to start looking at the leeches (health unsurers) because the turnips (people) have been bled. Follow the money and you will find a gravy train load full of fat that desperately needs to be trimmed at the health unsurance industry's door. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:22 AM:

" I'd say some of you ought to walk in ERnurse's shoes and see what she has seen over the years before you go ballistic on her. And sorry HP, but I am not on medicare and won't be for several years yet. I am however hoping the system doesn't completely collapse so that when I am eligible the program that I paid into all these years will be there. Also knowing that I will have to have supplemental insurance because Medicare will not and does not provide everything. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:33 AM:

" You're posts are getting rather stale, red,white,blue. Oh, my poor party is being abused. Oh, poor Bush. Oh, poor abused Sarah Palin. This country had 8 years of Republican leadership, and voted for a change, Get over it. With the possible exception of Neo, you have to be the biggest cry baby on this site. Are you going to whine about the Republicans getting kicked out for the next three years?

As for blaming Bush for everything, I would remind you that he is the one at the helm when the ship went down. You, like the rest of your ilk are scared to death that Obama will succeed.

You may not like it, but at least Obama is trying to do something to clean his inherited mess up, unlike Bush whose answer was to give large tax breaks to his millionaire buddies. How did that work out, by the way?

As for Palin, she's a walking punch line, sort of hard to resist poking fun at that camera hogging media wh*re.

Get your Palin-Beck bumper sticker yet? "

Bps wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:38 AM:

" Bernie wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:46 AM:
" My father was an engineer for the highway department. He did not make as much money as he could have in the private sector, but he was extremely well paid and the benefits far better. He helped build roads that everyone drives on for "free" (publicly funded), and that are paid for according to ability. Than GOD public highways are not a money-making venture."
----------

Drive for free???

Sorry Bernie there are no Free roads in America. The roads are paid for through ROAD USE TAXES and FUEL TAXES.

You know FEES PAID by the actual users of the services (in this case the roads) pay for them through the MOTOR FUEL TAXES and the CARRIERS TAXES.

Of course in the demo-thug peoples republic of Chicago, you get the added fun of toll roads that were to have been paid off over twenty years ago but funny thing still charge tolls to ALL who use them.

Sorry Bernie, when it comes from Gooberment it ant never free- somebody always ends up paying for it in the end. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:01 PM:

" HP, you never disappoint. Still looking for that justification and explanation for what this administration is doing to this country but while you call me a whiner all I see from you is, AS I PREVIOUSLY STATED, more Bush bashing and Palin fear mongering. And you dare call me a whiner! Pot, kettle, black! "

Bernie wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:09 PM:

" I said "free" in quotation marks and added (publicly funded) in parentheses.

I know public roads and highways are not free and are publicly funded, but in most cases we don't have to pay out-of-pocket every time we use them either.

Sheesh. "

BW wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:23 PM:

" Ah, Shump, you are always so gracious and selfless. Surely you deserve a Nobel, if they can find a category to encompass your goodness,unmatchable intelligence, compassion and, most of all, your gargantuan ego. Have a nice Thanksgiving. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:13 PM:

" Sorry about the Medicare comment, reddy. It's just that you sound like such an angry and bitter old woman that I assumed you fit in that age category. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:18 PM:

" I guess my post calling Reagan an old coot didn't make the cut. Funny, but that seems rather tame when you look at the names they allow on here about our current president. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:21 PM:

" Red,white,blue I made the comment about socialism because you said you didn't understand what roads had to do with it. Which obviously shows that you don't understand what socialism is about. Now it sounds to me as though you are the one lying, last I heard several Republican ideas were included in the current bill. BUT that is beside the point. I said why haven't the Repubs put out their own bill if the Democratic one is sooooo bad? It can only be because they are lazy and whiners and complainers and not interested in making this world a better place for ALL people. "

The Question wrote on Nov 25, 2009 3:27 PM:

" Sorry about the Medicare comment, reddy. It's just that you sound like such an angry and bitter old woman that I assumed you fit in that age category
---
A completely understandable mistake, Harry. "

Bps wrote on Nov 25, 2009 3:38 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:33 AM:
" This country had 8 years of Republican leadership, and voted for a change, Get over it.
----------
Like always you over simplify and miss the real meaning Harry p.

The Democrats lost control of the congress in the 1994 midterms because of mismanagement, tax & spending. The one party control under Clinton was more than the people could stand.

Apparently one party control gets old, because in the Repub-u-clowns lost the congress in 2006 for the same reason- they didnt listen to the people and they spent, spent, spent.

It was almost a surety that a Dummy-crat would be elected after bush jrs screw ups in his second term.

Along comes an unqualified community organizer preaching hope and change who somehow beats out Hilary the heir apparent.

All those promises, all that hope and total control of the house and senate.

The people thought surly they will do better.

It has been ten months since his rise to power and so far ol hope and change, Queen Pelosi, and the court Jester Reid have FAILED COMPLETELY at everything- except borrowing and spending money in all the wrong places.

When the people yell NO, they ignore them and continue with total arrogance.

Midterms are coming and all the polls are showing the home folks arent happy with the clowns in congress.

The people have proven twice before they are not happy when they are ignored, well just like they are being ignored right now.

But hay, go ahead and worry about an x-governor from Alaska who at best is a very l. . . o . . . n . . . g shot, guess it keeps your mind off of how big a failure your party has proven to itself to be again.

Do you hear the clock ticking HP? "

Bps wrote on Nov 25, 2009 6:48 PM:

" Bernie wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:09 PM:
" I said "free" in quotation marks and added (publicly funded) in parentheses.

I know public roads and highways are not free and are publicly funded, but in most cases we don't have to pay out-of-pocket every time we use them either.

Sheesh. "
-------------
Well sheesh back to you Bernie. Your analogy was:

He helped build roads that everyone drives on for "free" (publicly funded), and that are paid for according to ability. Than GOD public highways are not a money-making venture.

You dont have the ability to pay you dont get the gas and you dont travel to your job. Do that often enough and you lose the job.

Travel a lot or drive a fuel inefficient vehicle and you pay a proportional higher share of the money that is supposed to go to roads.

Roads are a money making venture for the State. They take it from you and I, they build a few roads and then spread the rest around in support staff, enforcement staff and to their cronies.

George Ryan was famous for his buddies making money off of the roads programs. Politicians get very large contributions from those who build the roads and gain power by the patronage jobs they have to distribute that are associated with them.

As far as I know you can get gooberment assistance for a lot of things, but I dont think you get it for cars and gas.

Now health care is a different story.
Poor, you can get government assistances for health care- Medicaid.

If you cant get insurance because your high risk, you can get insurance through the states Illinois Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan.

Have no insurance, you show up to the ER you get treatment, it is the law. Carle Clinic was sued by the State for not giving enough free care, so the state seems to be serious about it.

But I also agree with you that it can be and needs to be improved.

You also posted- we need to start looking at the leeches (health unsurers) because the turnips (people) have been bled. Follow the money and you will find a gravy train load full of fat that desperately needs to be trimmed at the health unsurance industry's door.

Do you really believe that politicians are any different than those who run the health industry?

The current system was the creation of the Government (HMO Act of 1973).

The government regulates them, accepts contributions from them and frankly has gone out of their way to limit competition. In another post you mention Carles attempt to open additional facilities in the area, it was the gooberment regulators that did it not the insurance companies.

Does real insurance competition across state lines need to be allowed, you bet.

Does the government need to offer more scholarships to get more people trained as Doctors and Nurses, you bet.

Do they need to set up pools of insurance companies to provide catastrophic insurance, you bet.

Put real free enterprise back into the system- you bet.

Will the monstrosity of a health bill going through congress now do any of this- NO!

Nothing is free nor is it usually improved if it comes from Gooberment.

Someone always pays, the politicians always skim off a large percentage for their little kingdoms and friends, they always gain a little more control over the citizens and the services rendered are always less than paid for. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:34 PM:

" Do you hear the clock ticking HP? "

Not really. And I recall the Republican icon Limbaugh claiming the day before the Dems took over all branches of the federal government that the Democratic party was imploding. Some implosion, huh? I'll wait to see what happens. Considering the the GOP is in total meltdown, I wouldn't count my chickens just yet. lol!

By the way, are you a Cub fan? "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:53 PM:

" red,white,blue wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:01 PM:

" HP, you never disappoint. Still looking for that justification and explanation for what this administration is doing to this country but while you call me a whiner all I see from you is, AS I PREVIOUSLY STATED, more Bush bashing and Palin fear mongering.....

So Bush and Palin bashing is whining now? I think you might need to invest in a dictionary. We all know that you don't have a good understanding of what Socialism is, so I guess we can add the term whining to your list of shortcomings too.

All caps usually denote anger, have you considered upping your Midol dose?

Sorry reddy, but I call them as I see them, and all I hear from you is constantly whining about how your party is abused. Sorry if the truth hurts.

Now go back to reading your copy of "Going Rogue", and leave the conversation to the adults. LOL! "

cedric66 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 9:32 PM:

" You don't contribute just because you want to. You do it because they make you do it. Try skipping around it and they will take everything you got. "

Bps wrote on Nov 25, 2009 9:33 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:34 PM:
" Do you hear the clock ticking HP? "

Not really. And I recall the Republican icon Limbaugh claiming the day before the Dems took over all branches of the federal government that the Democratic party was imploding. Some implosion, huh? I'll wait to see what happens. Considering the the GOP is in total meltdown, I wouldn't count my chickens just yet. lol!

By the way, are you a Cub fan? "
------------
Nope, I was born in a Cards portion of Mattoon and also a Democrat. I still support the cards.

I picture you as a Yankee fan.

Limbaugh is an entertainer first and always and I really have never cared for much of what he has to say. I am surprised you would consider what he says means anything of consequence.

To anyone with any sense it was clear that the Repub-a-clowns were on their way out based upon how the ignored the people in 2006 (as they deserved).

The Dummy-crats in 1994 did the same thing and deserved it also.

Frankly the current majority in congress is the worst of the group and if the people actually stay awake, it sure looks like history will repeat itself again.

I think both parties have major issues and are corrupted. I really dont have any hope that either will properly represent this country if they have complete control.

My only hope is that somehow we end up with a split where one party doesnt have control over the three main branches. When power is split it really slows the crooks down and makes them reach comprise or stalemate. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 26, 2009 12:31 AM:

" I just found an interesting table of a poll in the Washington Post:

people who say they | people who say
understand the health| too complicated
care bill | to understand
56% support 36% support
43% oppose 54% oppose

That's about how I would have guessed:
Those who understand it, support it.
Those who lack the ability to understand it, are the ones who oppose it. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 26, 2009 9:28 AM:

" Fact check:

You said, "Now health care is a different story.
Poor, you can get government assistances for health care- Medicaid."

Just so you know, Medicaid is not available to poor people unless and until they are disabled and/or have children.

If you have assets but no health insurance and get sick, then you do not qualify for any help, there is no safety net, until after you are both bankrupt and disabled.

If you own or work for a small business and get sick, you will be singled out and rated up and out of your health coverage. Technically you will drop it, but in reality you have been financially forced to do so. You will not be allowed to stay in your own, or join another aptly named risk grouop if you are indeed "risky" (and work for a small group, unless it happens to be one that is in wih an in crowd). Your name goes on the MIB list (Medical Information Bureau, run by and for the health and life insurance industry for its benefit at our expense) and you become one of our "uninsurables". Every health insurer (except the scam plans) uses this list to deny coverage. The scam plans use it to target you. Our uninsurables are like India's untouchables, only slightly different.

I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about how real-life friends of mine (who have paid through their noses for health insurance their entire lives while they were young, healthy and didn't need to use it) have been treated by this heartless industry.

Let me know if you'd like to hear any of them and I will try to make the time. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 26, 2009 9:56 AM:

" Bps,

There were so many factual inaccuracies in your post that I simply don't have time to address them all.

There are opinions, which everyone is entitled to, and then there are facts.

Opinions can be loosey-goosey and do no harm, but you really need to be more careful about facts.

Your facts are wrong. "

sapient wrote on Nov 26, 2009 10:55 AM:

" Cognitus: Those who say they understand the bill are lying because they have not had time to study the mounds of pages that are in this bill.
They are probably leftist loonies who will say that just because that is what they want. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:31 AM:

" Oh BW I don't need public aclaim to show me how GOOD I am. Why every time someone like you attacks my character it is proven time and time again. I am a saint compared to you. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 26, 2009 7:06 PM:

" Limbaugh is an entertainer first and always and I really have never cared for much of what he has to say. I am surprised you would consider what he says means anything of consequence.

True, he's just an entertainer. But to say his words have no consequence seems rather naive. Why has every Republican who ever had the nerve to stand up to him or to criticise him apologized within a few days? And that would include the head of the RNC. For a non elected official, he has a lot of power. "

BW wrote on Nov 26, 2009 8:27 PM:

" Shump, how can you use the term "saint"? Doesn't it have some sort of religious connotation? Yes, I know, I used it. But I don't deny the existence of God as you do. "

red,white,blue wrote on Nov 26, 2009 10:25 PM:

" Susan, you are now resorting to twisting words and ignoring facts to try to make your point. But I'm sure many would agree, "what else is new?" from the left. Oh, and I'm still waiting for the explanation as to how this current administration is not leading us straight down the path to destruction. I guess my asking questions is construed as whining? Or maybe it's the last resort of those who have no answers. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 27, 2009 7:25 AM:

" Honestly BW Saints are a part of our history whether you believe in thier saintliness or not. AND I might add that some have been quite unsaintly. You should get a good book and read about the lives of the Saints. I also talk about Santa and the Easter Bunny and the Flying Spaghetti Monster even though I don't "think" they are real! Grow up. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 27, 2009 8:09 AM:

" The first time I met Richard was when I stopped in to visit his brother. The two were living together to help make living more affordable. One owned a small business and Richard worked full-time as a bus driver.

Richard was sitting alone in a dark corner. Unwittingly I asked to be introduced. As his brother made the introduction, I could see why Richard was sitting alone in a dark corner. The lower side of his face was covered with a grotesque tumor reminiscient of the Elephant Man. His brother told me the tumor was slowly starting to interfere with Richard's ability to eat. Other than go to his job, Richard was becoming more and more unwilling to be seen in public.

When Richard's tumor first started and was very small, he went to a doctor who said Richard would have to pay $1500 up front before the tumor, which at that time was benign, could be removed. Richard's employer did not provide health insurance, or pay enough so Richard could afford to purchase health insurance for himself. Nor did Richard have $1500 extra, and could not foresee having it in the future. Just the doctor's visit alone set him back almost more than he could pay for, so he went home without any treatment and watched the tumor grow.

I was horrified. After much work and pleading, I finally found a surgeon in Champaign willing to operate. I wasted a lot of time finding out that NO one in Coles County would offer any help at all. I did this for Richard and his brother because they simply did not have the where-with-all to do it for themselves.

The surgery took over nine hours. It was the most complicated operation the surgeon had ever performed. Because the formerly benign lump had turned cancerous, Richard also had to have all of his teeth removed in preparation for the radiation that would follow. Somehow because "we" could not come up with $1500 to have a small benign lump removed, now "we" were paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat an easily preventable cancer, and Richard was suffering horribly. The surgery left him disfigured with half his face paralyzed. Finally he became totally disabled and died a long, slow, miserable yet easily preventable death at age 56 after a long and expensive stay in a nursing home.

The words "pennywise, pound foolish, cruel and inhumane" come to mind.

That's just one story. I know lots more that are more directly related to the health unsurance industry because in the other cases people had been paying through their noses for coverage for years, so mistakenly thought they would be able to keep their coverage if they became ill. "

Bps wrote on Nov 27, 2009 8:21 AM:

" Bernie wrote on Nov 26, 2009 9:56 AM:
" Bps,

There were so many factual inaccuracies in your post that I simply don't have time to address them all.

There are opinions, which everyone is entitled to, and then there are facts.

Opinions can be loosey-goosey and do no harm, but you really need to be more careful about facts.

Your facts are wrong. "
---------------
Bernie

Since we cant not learn unless our mistakes are described, please enlighten me, which are wrong? "

Bps wrote on Nov 27, 2009 8:55 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 26, 2009 7:06 PM:
" True, he's just an entertainer. But to say his words have no consequence seems rather naive. Why has every Republican who ever had the nerve to stand up to him or to criticise him apologized within a few days? And that would include the head of the RNC. For a non elected official, he has a lot of power. "
-------------------------------
Sorry you missed the I am surprised that you (the you being Harry p) would consider what he says means anything of consequence.

He does have a following and with them he has varying degrees of effect.

It is similar to Oprah or other larger than life celebrities that affect their share of voters.

As I recall a lot of pundits give Oprah the credit for pushing the one into his first victories.

Words always have meaning and consequences. Look how much impact the vitriol and mean spirited comments that Pelosi, Reid and the rest of the radical lefts attacks of the conservative movement (tea baggers, attacking those who attended town meetings, etc.)- Why their followers on this site reacted and re-iterated the same mean spirited attacks right here. "

Bps wrote on Nov 27, 2009 11:33 AM:

" Bernie wrote on Nov 26, 2009 9:28 AM:
" Fact check:
You said, "Now health care is a different story.
Poor, you can get government assistances for health care- Medicaid."
Just so you know, Medicaid is not available to poor people unless and until they are disabled and/or have children.
If you have assets but no health insurance and get sick, then you do not qualify for any help, there is no safety net, until after you are both bankrupt and disabled.
If you own or work for a small business and get sick, you will be singled out and rated up and out of your health coverage. Technically you will drop it, but in reality you have been financially forced to do so. You will not be allowed to stay in your own, or join another aptly named risk grouop if you are indeed "risky" (and work for a small group, unless it happens to be one that is in wih an in crowd). Your name goes on the MIB list (Medical Information Bureau, run by and for the health and life insurance industry for its benefit at our expense) and you become one of our "uninsurables". Every health insurer (except the scam plans) uses this list to deny coverage. The scam plans use it to target you. Our uninsurables are like India's untouchables, only slightly different.
I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about how real-life friends of mine (who have paid through their noses for health insurance their entire lives while they were young, healthy and didn't need to use it) have been treated by this heartless industry.
Let me know if you'd like to hear any of them and I will try to make the time. "
------------

You are right Medicaid is a government program targeted to a selected group of the poor and I agree it doesnt work well.

It is really 50 programs that each state administers differently within broad federal guidelines with the Feds paying about half of the tab, while each state pays the other half.

In 2006, Medicaid served 59 million poor people and was the largest single health care program in America, including Medicare. It paid for 37 % of all births in the United States and helped foot the bills for more than 60 % of all patients in nursing homes.

According to U.S. Department of Health & Human Services Medicaid covered 1 in 6 Americans.

Nearly $320 billion was spent on Medicaid in 2006 with the states paying for of its costs.

It accounted for 22 % of the state budgets (up from just 8 percent in 1985). That means the growth of Medicaid spending is crowding out funding for all other programs that states deliver.

By your own posts we seem to agree that the gooberments Medicaid program (a type of one payer, government insurance) is a disaster as it doesnt do what it was orginally intended to do.

Your own posts rile against the insurance industry as the villain of health care.

Our current health insurance industry was created by gooberment in 1973 and has been tinkered with since then by gooberment. It evolved into a policy nightmare whose ever-growing costs overburden companys and personal budgets under the government regulators oversight.

Medicaid was a creation of gooberment and has been tinkered with since 1965. It has evolved into a policy nightmare whose ever-growing costs overburden the federal treasury and threatens to swamp almost all state budgets under the government regulators oversight..

When you consider those covered by private insurance, Medicare and Medicaid most estimates are there are 15% uninsured in this country.

By the CBOs scoring the latest greatest Senate bill will cost $849 Billion with the new taxes to start almost immediately but coverage doesnt begin until 2014 and according to the same CBO 24 million people will still be uninsured in 2019!

What is too bad is they are trying to fix the programs that dont work that are the direct result of their own actions by doing the same things over again and expecting a different result.

How about we actually take the time to set down and fix it right, step by small step. Lets start with Medicaid and the rest of the things I put in my previous post. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 27, 2009 3:48 PM:

" Re,white,blue the current administration isn't leading us down the path of self-destruction they are trying to get us off of it. A nation without health care for ALL its citizens will not be competitive in this century. A nation that isolates itself from the global market will be left behind in the dust. A nation that thinks that it is "top dog" and can dictate what it wants and doesn't want to the rest of the world is outnumbered by China, India and Africa. You can't stop the Titanic on a dime or turn an aircraft carrier around in an instant. Obama may not be perfect, he may not be the "messiah the repubs want him to be" but he is the man for the job, for this time in history and HOW much he is able to accomplish isn't entirely up to him. There are forces at work beyond his control, obstructionist forces in our country that want to see him fail even though that will bring our country down with him, and only TIME will tell if he is able to overcome them. "

BW wrote on Nov 27, 2009 4:02 PM:

" Shump, I really get a kick out of reading your many, many, many posts. I find you amusing. You are joking in your posts, aren't you? Aren't you? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? "

Bernie wrote on Nov 27, 2009 6:11 PM:

" Bps, you and I agree on some points.

I think the health care reform (not) bill proposed by the Democrats is an abomination of even more corporate welfare for the health unsurance industry at taxpayer expense, disguised as a bill to help the American people. Technically of course as it stands now there are multiple bills, but they all have the same flaw of counting on the problem to become the solution, and pouring more good money after bad. All the proposed solutions maintain our broken status quo and even feed it hundreds of billions of dollars more, making the problem worse, not better. We could easily spend less and get more because there is so much waste in our current profit-driven, divided-we-are-conquered non-system. Every other civilized nation on Earth but ours knows this already.

And you're absolutely right that I believe the private health unsurance industry is the biggest part of the problem by FAR. If we simply got rid of it (because it IS the problem), phase it out over a period of years, then finally (because of the badly-needed transparency made possible by creating one very large protective pool under one set of non-discriminatory rules: if we get sick, we are covered and can choose any licensed care provider), we could begin to solve all of the other problems (especially cost but also quality and choice), while always realizing that anything involving human beings will never be perfect.

I agree Medicaid is fifty different programs, paid for with matching state funds. S-CHIP (State Children's Health Insurance Program) dramatically changed Medicaid facts and figures. More about that later, plus a little-known factoid about how Barack Obama almost single-handedly gutted the Health Care Justice Act when he was chairman of the health insurance committee while in the Illinois state legislature. "

devilishangel61401 wrote on Nov 27, 2009 6:33 PM:

" Susan I myself find it ironic that in this letter you seem to advocate everyone in the country having goverment sponsored health care but yet in the other health care forum talking about restriciting a women's reproductive rights you keep saying things such as "Don't I have the right to say that MY tax dollars should not have to go to a woman who is caring a fetus who carries the genes for things such as cancer, diabeties and cystic fibrosis" You can't have it both ways. If you want the goverment to pay for health care then you cannot tell them that they have to pay for only what you want them to because your personal opinions are going to be diffrent from other people's. If you want people to be able to make medical decisions for themselves and their families that best suit their needs then you cannot 100% adovcate a goverment sponsored insurance program.
Because like any other goverment sponsored program it will be the Goverment Not the People who set the ; limits, guidelines, and terms of anything and everything they will or will not pay for. Just look at the Welfare Programs that President Johnson set up in the 1970's. The goverment both on Federal and State levels decide what the qualifying income guidelines are, what the family size has to be to qualify for assistance, how the aid is to be used. Those whose tax dollars fund the programs don't have a say in any of that. Just reading the history of any goverment program leads me to belive it is going to be the same way if health care reform passes. Yes some sort of reform does need passed, we need to eliminate the coporate greed and middle men and tell companies they can no longer deny coverage based on "pre-existing conditions" Remember when car insurance was limited to the area you lived in? Your local agent had you by the throat and they knew it because you either bought from them or did without. Then goverment "deregulated" the auto insurance agencies and now you can buy coverage from virtually anyplace in the country. You can go online and compare rates and coverage options and choose what works the best for you. Some folks need more health insurance than others, how many of us had "well baby checkups and immunzation shots?" Once you hit a certain age you dont' need all those shots, some folks need to take several medications for health conditions while others take no medications how is the goverment going to make sure that everyone is covered fairly when everyone does not have the same medical situations??? "

logic over passion wrote on Nov 27, 2009 6:37 PM:

" medic, I would rather my child learn from educated, liberal professors than from uneducated, conservative idiots of your ilk. For you to blame unwanted pregnancies on women "opening their legs" is just ludicrous -- women don't get pregnant by themselves. If more men stepped up to the plate and willingly took responsibility for the babies they helped create, there would be far fewer abortions. It's the double standard that you apparently believe in -- men can have sex all they want, but women better "keep their legs together" -- that fuels the lack of personal accountability too many men seem to live by.

Then again, stupid people like yourself just make it painfully obvious that more women should consider abortion as an option, for the greater public good. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 27, 2009 7:41 PM:

" " medic, I would rather my child learn from educated, liberal professors than from uneducated, conservative idiots of your ilk.

Ouch! Cyber wedgie? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 27, 2009 11:25 PM:

" For you to blame unwanted pregnancies on women "opening their legs" is just ludicrous -- women don't get pregnant by themselves. If more men stepped up to the plate and willingly took responsibility for the babies they helped create, there would be far fewer abortions.
------------------------

OOPS...THOSE DARN STATISTICS...they always seem to put egg on peoples' face's.

Hey...I know...let's get rid of THE PILL, 'logic over passion', since there is a correlation between it's introduction, and increased usage, to the use of abortion for reproductive control, and then you won't have to be offended by the "opening their legs" statement...even though their is much truth to this indicting statement.

Prior to the introduction of THE PILL abortions were virtually non-existent in this country (http://tinyurl.com/ys53qm)

Women who have never married obtain 2/3's of all abortions (Jones RK, Darroch JE, and Henshaw SK, 2002). No sex until marriage? Nah...that would require virtue...

For women reporting having abortions, 3/4's cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals (the baby) for having the abortion; 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (Finer LB et al., 2005).

OOPS' looks like the PILL enticed women to indeed "open their...."...maybe the moniker 'logic over passion' might need to be changed to 'passion over logic'! "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 27, 2009 11:31 PM:

" medic, I would rather my child learn from educated, liberal professors than from uneducated, conservative idiots of your ilk.
------------------
Well...medic...I guess some people just want mediocrity in the 'education' of their children... "

dak_233 wrote on Nov 28, 2009 12:23 AM:

" You people make me sick...Arguing over all this crap and getting nowhere! We need some kind of reform I agree, but not this left wing liberal crap! Do you people Really believe that the government really has 'OUR' best interests at heart? Do you really believe that we're all going to get the best "affordable" health care in the world and we're all going to prosper?

That is not the reality of this! Thats what happens when the real history of the world gets omitted from history books and gets replaced with information that they "want you to know". Not the truth!

Take a look at the past and learn from it. We all know how Social security is such an awesome resource! Anytime the government gets involved at this scale, the "People" are not going to get out what we put in. You all know I'm right!

Now I face the problem of losing money out of my already small paycheck. Are you all going to pool your money together and buy my kids clothes? pay my rent? pay my utilities? Provide food for my children? Thats my job! It's my job to provide for MY family, not yours, and it's your job to to take care of yours.

It should be my option to help you if you need it. Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to take from my family to better anyone elses.

Mark my words! This is going to be a catastrophy! "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:55 AM:

" Devilsangel that is exactly the point I WAS MAKING. On the other thread one woman said she didn't want he tax dollars used to pay for what she considers immoral, abortion. I pointed out and you obviously quit reading that I and others object to our tax dollars being used for other things we consider immoral. AND I asked her if we as a society really want to go down the path where special interests groups pick and choose what their tax dollars will or will not pay for based on their concept of "morality". You really do need to read the whole post if you want to be a responsible participant in the debate. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:59 AM:

" Oh BW give it up you stepped in it a long time ago. Try addressing the issues at hand and stay away from attacking personalities it makes you look......foolish/silly/a sore loser/frustrated old man....you can choose which ever fits. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 28, 2009 8:08 AM:

" Devilishangel said: "If you want people to be able to make medical decisions for themselves and their families that best suit their needs then you cannot 100% adovcate a goverment sponsored insurance program."

The exact opposite is true. The government IS the people, and we get to elect the CEO's. Private health insurers work on an "us against them" basis. We have absolutely no say in the matter (and never will).

It is ironic that you say government regulation is needed to fix their problems. I guarantee they will game any system for their own financial gain at our expense, and are always stepping around any attempts to regulate otherwise.

Medicare would work even better if everyone (intead of only our oldest and sickest) were members of the group, and it has already proven itself to work far better than private health insurance now. The proof is in the higher cost and lower quality of newly privatized Medicare Advantage (I call them "Disadvantage") plans. These are the most highly regulated private plans possible. They promised to save us money but in fact cost 17% more than traditional Medicare while delivering far less reliable coverage. The stories of promises made but not kept by them are starting to pour in, sounding just like the health coverage horror stories of Americans under age 65. They take care of a lot of little things but more than make up for doing so by denying the relatively few big things (often resulting in easily preventable disabilities and deaths). They give the critical mass the illusion that they work pretty well....until one of us experiences something big and becomes one of the forgotten denied minority.

Unlike private unsurance, Medicare covers the big things too. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 28, 2009 5:19 PM:

" Do you really believe that the health insurance industry has our best interests at heart?

Call it the lesser of two evils if you will, but I do not view our government as our enemy. Our representatives are supposed to act as protectors of the public's interests. If they don't do that, we're supposed to vote them out. "

BW wrote on Nov 28, 2009 6:18 PM:

" Thanks again, Shumpy, your humor and ego are fascinating. You would make some psychiatrist rich. "

logic over passion wrote on Nov 28, 2009 6:27 PM:

" Neo Con, you really should learn to read (again, education isn't a thing to be feared; you may find it actually improves your life). All those statistics you spout about abortion only go to PROVE my point about the men who fathered those children needing to step up to the plate. Perhaps if those women knew that the fathers would be sharing the responsibility and burden of raising a child -- not just financially, though that's of great importance -- but also in terms of getting up in the middle of the night to help feed and change an infant, helping older children with their homework, getting them to and from school, etc., etc., for at least 18 years, taking time off work to stay home with a sick child, then maybe they wouldn't be getting abortions because of fears of being able to care for a child, fearing the implications on their jobs, fearing financial ruin, and so forth.

And where are your stats about abortion being non-existent prior to the Pill? Abortions have happened throughout the ages; they just weren't legal in our country till 1973, only a few years after the introduction of the pill.

Again, education isn't something to fear, NeoCon. It actually helps you learn facts and reasoning (like how to make sense of statistics and history), instead of making up ignorant arguments that you seem to have pulled from your a--, um, from thin air. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 29, 2009 7:40 AM:

" Dak, Under our current non-system you face the problem of losing more and more money out of your already small paycheck. Now, if you're like most Americans under age 65 with private health coverage, you have no idea how much that is.

Under honest reform (not what is being proposed) you would be able to see exactly who is paying how much for what, including you and your familiy.

Honest health coverage reform would provide you and 95% of Americans with far more comprehensive and reliable coverage at tremendous savings.

The average family coverage is over $13,000 per year. According to the insurance industry, around $4000 of that goes to pay for the under and un-insured. Reform could be paid for in a vaiety of ways to replace the $13,000 (and growing exponentially without any control and absolutely no end in sight) private premiums, but the most regressive method would be a 7.85% payroll tax. A 2.9% payroll tax now pays for 15% of our oldest and sickest. If 7.85% of your paycheck is less than $13,000, you win. If you are really poor, the government would return all or part of that to you and your family via the "earned income tax credit".

That's the truth. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 29, 2009 7:43 AM:

" Dak, Do you really believe the health insurance industry has our best interests at heart?

Under our current non-system you face the problem of losing more and more money out of your already small paycheck to them. We are at their mercy, and they have NONE. Now, if you're like most Americans under age 65 with private health coverage, you have no idea how much that is.

Under honest reform (not what is being proposed) you would be able to see exactly who is paying how much for what, including you and your familiy.

Honest health coverage reform would provide you and 95% of Americans with far more comprehensive and reliable coverage at tremendous savings.

The average family coverage is over $13,000 per year. According to the insurance industry, around $4000 of that goes to pay for the under and un-insured. Reform could be paid for in a variety of ways to replace the $13,000 (and growing exponentially without any control and absolutely no end in sight) private premiums, but the most regressive method would be a 7.85% payroll tax. A 2.9% payroll tax now pays for 15% of our oldest and sickest. If 7.85% of your paycheck is less than $13,000, you win. If you are really poor, the government would return all or part of that to you and your family via the "earned income tax credit".

That's the truth. "

logic over passion wrote on Nov 29, 2009 2:32 PM:

" Hey Rotty, have you applied yet! LOL! "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 29, 2009 3:30 PM:

" BW you'd give a psychiatrist nightmares. Grow up. "

BW wrote on Nov 29, 2009 4:11 PM:

" Shumpy, you forgot the "Nyah, Nyah"s. You are definitely a piece of work. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 29, 2009 4:29 PM:

" I just read over BW's posts. Not one of them addressed the issue, and every one of them attacked and tried to hurt someone else. "

BW wrote on Nov 29, 2009 5:15 PM:

" Bernie, the topic of this letter has been beaten to death for more than a week, Bernie. Far as I know, Bernie, this is still a free country, Bernie, so, unless you have the solution to the health care situation, Bernie, myob, Bernie. "

dak_233 wrote on Nov 29, 2009 6:34 PM:

" Bernie, I do not think the health insurance companies have our best interests at heart! You have completely missed my point. No one is getting anywhere fighting over this. I do believe we need reform! but what we have infront of us right now is not the reform this country can afford!

We need civil minded people to work together to come up with viable plan. The government will screw this up and waste our money. See "track record".

You say you don,t see the government as our "enemy".....I don't see the government as my "crutch" as far to many people do.

The government, insurance companies, and everyone else can keep out of my life, I don't want anything handed to me, but I sure as hell don't need 'em taking from me either.

Thats exactly whats going to happen.
There are producers and there are consumers. The government is making it far to easy for more people to become consumers, we will not have any incentive to be producers and this country will fall! "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 29, 2009 7:18 PM:

" medic"If women would just keep their
legs closed...."

medic is even ignorant of human anatomy; I can assure medic that it
IS possible for women to conceive with their legs TIGHTLY together......
Obviously his sexual experience is
quite limited. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 29, 2009 7:54 PM:

" Neo Con, you really should learn to read (again, education isn't a thing to be feared; you may find it actually improves your life).
---------------------

Wool I be. If'n I ditn't knowd bettr Id think yuda thot I's wus unedukated! "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 29, 2009 9:14 PM:

" All those statistics you spout about abortion only go to PROVE my point about the men who fathered those children needing to step up to the plate. Perhaps if those women knew that the fathers would be sharing the responsibility and burden of raising a child...
------------------

Ya reaaaaaally should consider changing that moniker of yours...

You've not a clue how to use the inductive/deductive (generalization toward if/then, and, or, not and, not or) reasoning process to effectively argue a point.

The statistics I point out don't prove YOUR POINT, Einstein; they give credence to my point.

And since you've babbled on here non-nonsensically regarding the virtues of an education, I'll assume you understand, a) the noting of references, and b) the statistical tool (albeit a weak stat tool) known as correlation.

Notice I provided references and those references form basis for the correlation.

I don't recall the r-value, but suffice to say that there's correlation between the introduction of the pill and the increased use of abortion for contraception.

Your comment concerning abortion prior to the pills introduction is a moot point since abortions were few in number, and in many cases, illegal prior to the '70's.

As for your statement concerning 'if those women knew that the fathers would be sharing the responsibility and burden of raising a child' it's not an if-then, and-or proposition.

You've assumed that a womens' reproductive drive can be curtailed based solely upon whether or not a) marriage/child support is an immediate concern regarding casual sex and, b) whether or not a father will marry/support children resultant of having casual sex.

BTW, I agree an education can actually improve the quality of one's life, but many use their education to make them feel superior to others (even when they're demonstrably not superior)... "

Bernie wrote on Nov 30, 2009 9:31 AM:

" Protecting people's lives when they are unable to protect themselves is not a crutch. A hand up is not the same as a hand out. Hand outs are what are going to those who already have a leg up and are using them to trickle down on the rest of us. That's why they call us peons.

Public service and unity for strength are not an evil concepts. They are what is needed save our nation from ruin. "

logic over passion wrote on Nov 30, 2009 9:59 AM:

" Neocon, your lack of logic would be appalling if it were not so frightening.

Why are you only slamming women for having a "reproductive drive"? The point I've made which you've repeatedly overlooked is this: why is okay for men to act upon their reproductive urges without assuming any responsibility for their actions, even though this often leads to unplanned pregnancy, and sometimes to abortion? You can't(logically) blame the entire abortion issue on women; it takes 2 to tango. "

Bernie wrote on Nov 30, 2009 10:09 AM:

" I do have the solution to the problem. It's Medicare for ALL...uniting ALL Americans into the same comprehensive, reliable, non-discriminatory public protection health coverage plan. That would create the transparency we need to be able to see and solve the other related problems, end the current rationing, lack of choice and unsustainability, plus protect our citizens, Medicare and economy for generations to come.

It's a fiscal and moral no-brainer. "

logic over passion wrote on Nov 30, 2009 11:35 AM:

" BTW, neo-connie, again those reading skills need some work. I never suggested that a woman's "reproductive drive" would be controlled by men stepping up to the plate, but that fewer abortions would be performed if men shared more of the responsibility for the products of their procreation! As far as the if-then reasoning of my suggestions, OF COURSE it's if-then logic!!!! Your statistics gave the real-world reasons that women have abortion, and I was addressing that the father's behavior in response to the situation (i.e. accepting responsibility for his sexual promiscuity instead of that burden falling entirely on the woman) could actually have an impact on the number of abortions performed. As in IF men accepted their share of the burden THEN women -- by their own admission in the statistics YOU cited -- would choose differently.

Anyone with a third grade education could see the logic of such claims. Apparently I went over your head, Connie. "

logic over passion wrote on Nov 30, 2009 11:38 AM:

" P.S. No where did I say that the couples had to marry. And I very specifically said that it was about more than mere financial support (i.e. child support). It's about co-parenting the child -- sharing in both the joys and the daily burdens/responsibilities of raising a child -- which does not require marriage. Please don't put your ignorant words into my mouth, thank-you-very-much! "

Bernie wrote on Nov 30, 2009 8:45 PM:

" Logic over passion, you're letting them change the subject and divert your attention away from the topic at hand (which is health care justice and ending discrimination against sick people in America). "

shoshanna wrote on Dec 2, 2009 10:57 AM:

" folks, lets deal with the real issue of so called government controlled health care. its a know fact that illegal immigrants will be given free health care if passed. Also limited health care will take effect and reduce many benefits we now have. Everyone that is on welfare or SSI or any other government program or government benefit ALREADY HAS total healthcare coverage-FREE. lets wake up and stop ignoring the real issues. this nation is in trouble and if the american people continue to ignore the direction its headed, we too will beome a nation without the freedom we have so cherished. its time to VOTE OUT & REPLACE all thoses in congress and the senate. we need to send a strong message to washington. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 2, 2009 11:54 PM:

" Okay let me explain this to you logic-less passion.

This issue of contention is abortion.

Should men keep their protuberances in their pockets? Yes, indeed they should.

Ultimately though, conception and gestation relies upon the females womb. It is with the female that abortion takes place...not the male. "

cd wrote on Dec 4, 2009 11:29 AM:

" Where in the U.S. Constitution does it state that Health Care is a Right?

Where in the U.S. Constitution is Health Care even mentioned? "

logic over passion wrote on Dec 6, 2009 2:15 PM:

" Neo Con, I never denied that abortion and gestation take place within a woman's womb. My point is that when the man -- the other person responsible for that little bundle of life within the woman's womb -- makes it clear that he's willing to share both the financial and practical responsibilities that go along with raising a child, he has an enormous amount of influence over whether the woman chooses to abort or not. It's easy for a man to verbally express that he's against abortion, but when he actually follows his words with ACTIONS that suggest a shared responsibility, the outcome is often for life, not abortion. "

sophiesmom wrote on Dec 8, 2009 10:04 PM:

" Everyone might as well face it, life isn't fair. We have to make the most of whatever we are given.
I guess even though I'm at the poverty line I should give up my social security to pay for someone who is abusing their health thru bad habits. I can go without food so these people can get their insurance. "