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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Monday, November 16, 2009 10:23 PM CST
LETTER: Churches should do a better job teaching love

REV. STEVE PARCELLS, KANSAS

The church sits in condemnation of homosexual marriage and adoption of children who are available because no mom and dad were.

We point our fingers and look down our noses as men marry men and women marry women. We sit on the throne of judgment and condemn their actions and yet do nothing to reestablish the foundations of marriage as our God defined it. We seem to forget that the child that is now looking at two dads or two moms was a creation of one mom and one dad.

Why are we not focusing on the single moms and the absent dads? Why are we not educating them about love rather than showing them how to hate? The foundation of marriage was love, and yet the homosexual community seems to be doing more than the church.

How dare we hate when they are showing love. I know that homosexuality is sin, and I am an Evangelical Bible-believing Christian, but until we start loving, how dare we teach hate. Fix the problem.

The main problem is not homosexuals getting married and adopting children; rather it is Christians getting divorced and giving children up for adoption.

Start preaching and teaching love. I did not say tolerance. I did not say to accept what we know is sin; however, I will not judge them for loving when we are not! I do not condone homosexuality, and I do not believe that they are truly in a marriage nor should they raise children under such sin, but I find it hard for the body of Christ to point fingers when we have so many issues in our midst.

We suffer from jealousy and pride in our own congregations, we are split and show little brotherhood between denominations, and our own congregations and pastors have been caught in sin. We could learn a lot from the homosexual community. They are all in unity and fighting, campaigning and rallying for the same cause.

It is time for the church to again learn from the one who was crucified. Unity and love! Wake up church and fight the sin by teaching what true love and marriage is. When divorce is no longer an epidemic within the church and we can keep and raise our precious children, then we can start to condemn the sin (but still befriend and love the sinner). Love church, love.

REV. STEVE PARCELLS

Kansas

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jrhendren wrote on Nov 16, 2009 11:50 PM:

" You need to look again at what love is. To tell someone they are doing wrong and bring them to Christ is love. It is how one does this that is the problem. Telling someone "Christ loves you and so do I, but you can keep sinning" is not showing love. They and yourself are in danger of Hell then. You are condoning sin. As for divorce in the church, yes it is wrong, and needs to be dealt with. However, one must also see that the Scriptures do deal with when divorce is acceptable. That being in the case of unfaithfulness. Does that mean when a partner has been unfaithful you just give it up? No, you work at it. Marriage is not easy. The biggest problem with the church today is that they don't want to step on any toes. That they are more interested in filling seats, then teaching the Word of God. When you have homosexual preachers, and divorcees that divorced just because it "got hard" to do preaching then their is a problem in the church. Christ did not watch what he said and did. He told the people, the truth, in a loving way. He never said, "If you don't want to stop your sin not that's okay." The church in general needs to take a good look at itself in a whole. Not just this issue or that. It needs to get back to the basics, ie. The Scriptures and what they say regarding Christ's bride, the church. Marriage in the Scriptures is defined, that is a fact. As is how the church is to treat others. We are to love them, but hate the sin. We are to let them know that they are not doing right, but we don't either. That just because someone is a Christian does not make them perfect. That we can never reach such perfection, only Christ. I have family members that are homosexual and they know I love them now as much as I ever have. They also know that I do not agree with their lifestyle, that I believe it to be sin. Do I say, "You disgusting sinner, turn from your ways you evil person"? No, they best thing I can do for them I do, that is I pray for them. Maybe that is what Christians need to do more of. Maybe we need to fight on our knees more. Love, does not me condone, it means to love. To show compassion, and let them know you care about their eternal life. Just as God loved us so much he gave the ultimate sacrifice his Son, but he did not make sure he did step on toes in doing it. You say, "Wake up church and fight the sin by teaching what true love and marriage is." I say caring about someones eternity and letting them know they are not with God in their walk is teaching and showing love. To not let them know is hurting them and yourself. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 17, 2009 12:22 AM:

" The main problem is not homosexuals getting married and adopting children; rather it is Christians getting divorced and giving children up for adoption.

Steve, check your facts, less than 1% of divorced couples give up their kids for adoption. And of Christains getting divorced, that number is probably lower.

We could learn a lot from the homosexual community.

Yeah, according to your own bible, we can learn how to spend eternity in Hell.
And by the way, Homosexual couples separate too. "

The Question wrote on Nov 17, 2009 7:25 AM:

" So you spit on gay people, and also love them. Quite the bipolar attitude you have there. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 17, 2009 8:50 AM:

" The reverend is right a wise person should learn from "good" examples as well as from "bad" examples. Many homosexuals have shown us the good example of what a loving respectful relationship should be. While many Christians have shown us the bad example. Homosexuality however is not a sin although it is a sin to say that homosexuality is a sin! When the reverend learns from the good example the homosexuals set he will learn what love and respect are all about. "

father bob wrote on Nov 17, 2009 9:01 AM:

" hmmmmm.....at least one "christian" trying to make some sense. "

CrowWoman wrote on Nov 17, 2009 12:35 PM:

" Pastor Parcells, I knew you were going to be skewered for writing this letter. Hendren and I have gone around and around re. this issue--he just doesn't get it. He is scared to death that someone might show love and respect to homosexuals instead of telling them they're bound for hell, and he must point out the error of that--while simultaneously defending divorce, of course.

Obviously, he didn't really read what you wrote, since he seems to think you're condoning homosexuality, which you clearly aren't (as noted by The Question and Susan).

I don't agree with everything you wrote here, but I think it's a nice letter--and much more consistent with what the Bible says than what evangelicals usually preach. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 17, 2009 2:36 PM:

" That is why I keep trying to show you "the way" Mr. Hendren, because I love you and want to help you find your way out of the sinful life you are leading, help you find your way back to "God" or whatever it is you seek. There are many paths through the woods Mr. Hendren and Christianity is no better nor worse than any other. "

~STRANGER~ wrote on Nov 17, 2009 3:26 PM:

" Thats what happens with organized religion.The singing cowboy church doesn't seem to have any problems with homosexuals our divorcee's attending their services.As long as everybody's 10% makes it's way to the offering basket. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 17, 2009 3:38 PM:

" many paths through the woods? And the big bad wolf is there to try to keep you off the one and only right path! But grandma, what big lying teeth you have! "

just wondering wrote on Nov 17, 2009 4:57 PM:

" Once again Susan is telling us something she knows nothing about. The Bible definitely states homosexuality is a sin, except in Susan's Bible. Hers is translated to suit her own needs. "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Nov 17, 2009 7:20 PM:

" Suz, I'm here to help you economize your soapbox, & to go with the times.

http://tinyurl.com/soapboxeconomized

Thank me later.
LOL! "

vagabond 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2009 7:29 PM:

" Will one of you smart biblical scholars name a book, chapter and verse where JESUS spoke about homosexuality. You will find many places where it is discussed, but not by Jesus. HMMMMM? "

prairieguy wrote on Nov 17, 2009 8:44 PM:

" Until you begin to learn tolerance of our diversity, Steve, you will never know love, true love, and that is what is truly, truly sad. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 17, 2009 9:43 PM:

" Susan

Show me the Bible Verse that says Homosexuality is not a sin.

Question

I have never spit on anyone in my entire life. I have also never advocated violence, except to allow public shooting of child molesters.

I can now die a peaceful death, my life is complete, Susan is going to show us the way. Where to though, no where I want to go. "

VTucker wrote on Nov 17, 2009 9:55 PM:

" "I have never spit on anyone in my entire life. I have also never advocated violence, except to allow public shooting of child molesters."

medic57, I sent in another letter on the subject. Feel free to read it and gripe! :)

Sorry--back to the topic.... "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 17, 2009 11:47 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 17, 2009 8:50 AM:
" The reverend is right a wise person should learn from "good" examples as well as from "bad" examples. Many homosexuals have shown us the good example of what a loving respectful relationship should be. While many Christians have shown us the bad example. Homosexuality however is not a sin although it is a sin to say that homosexuality is a sin! When the reverend learns from the good example the homosexuals set he will learn what love and respect are all about. "

You really ought to read the Bible it clearly states that the act of homosexuality is a sin. I know you, you say it is not so it is not. Facts are facts.
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders..." - 1 Corinthians 6:9 "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 17, 2009 11:52 PM:

" CrowWoman wrote on Nov 17, 2009 12:35 PM:
" Pastor Parcells, I knew you were going to be skewered for writing this letter. Hendren and I have gone around and around re. this issue--he just doesn't get it. He is scared to death that someone might show love and respect to homosexuals instead of telling them they're bound for hell, and he must point out the error of that--while simultaneously defending divorce, of course.

Obviously you didn't read again. What a shock. I most certainly said the complete opposite of your story. Why not be honest for once. I have condemned divorce over and over. I have stated how I have family that is homosexual that I care for deeply. Truth try it for once.
________________________________________

Obviously, he didn't really read what you wrote, since he seems to think you're condoning homosexuality, which you clearly aren't (as noted by The Question and Susan).

I don't agree with everything you wrote here, but I think it's a nice letter--and much more consistent with what the Bible says than what evangelicals usually preach. "

I did not say he condoned homosexuality, I did say that he like many, believe the church is not to tell when someone is doing wrong, but keep speaking of love. He is doing what you accuse me of doing. Saying this sin is worse so ignore the other. To ignore someones sin and let them perish is not showing love, to think it is is makes you guilty of their death. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 17, 2009 11:56 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 17, 2009 2:36 PM:
" That is why I keep trying to show you "the way" Mr. Hendren, because I love you and want to help you find your way out of the sinful life you are leading, help you find your way back to "God" or whatever it is you seek. There are many paths through the woods Mr. Hendren and Christianity is no better nor worse than any other. "

You can not lead someone to God, since you do not know him, by your own testimony. Their is only one way to God, and that is through Christ. You do not have to agree, that is your right. As I have always said. You are the one not wanting people to have a choice, in believing or not. You do not understand the love of not wanting someone to perish, because you do not believe in Hell. That is why you can not understand true love. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 12:00 AM:

" vagabond 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2009 7:29 PM:
" Will one of you smart biblical scholars name a book, chapter and verse where JESUS spoke about homosexuality. You will find many places where it is discussed, but not by Jesus. HMMMMM? "

Paul spoke of it in 1 Corinthians, since he was an apostle chosen by Jesus he speaks for him. In Mathew 19:4-5 Jesus speaks of marriage as a man and woman. Both would be from God, thus there is your chapter and verse. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 12:02 AM:

" ~STRANGER~ wrote on Nov 17, 2009 3:26 PM:
" Thats what happens with organized religion.The singing cowboy church doesn't seem to have any problems with homosexuals our divorcee's attending their services.As long as everybody's 10% makes it's way to the offering basket. "

Just as I said, many churches today are more interested in the number of members then teaching the Word. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 18, 2009 8:02 AM:

" Now that is really twisted reasoning Mr. Hendren, because I don't believe in Hell I can't understand TRUE love. Because I say that all religions are valid, Christianity is no better or worse than any other I want to limit freedom of religious choice. You really are one messed up person. "

prairieguy wrote on Nov 18, 2009 8:03 AM:

" jrhendren - you quote the bible and then say "facts are facts." The bible. Facts. Are you serious? If you mean it's a fact that it's in there, fine, but you quote it as if it were written by a god with pen and papyrus. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 18, 2009 8:11 AM:

" I have pointed out several times Mr. Hendren that the words used in Corinthians (Malakoi and arsenokoitai) have been mistranslated. AND that sir is fact. Malakos appears only four times in the New Testament and three of those times it means soft, so in Corinthians when it is used it would mean soft, effeminate person which could be a man like you or it could be a homosexual. Arsenokoitai appears only twice in the Bible and is best translated as a Pederast. I suggest you look that word up. The admonition is against sexual exploitation not against homosexuality. Homophilia the word in common usage during Biblical times that meant "homosexuality" never appears in the Bible. Surely God if he was all perfect would have chosen that word if he wanted his message to be clear. The fact that he didn't means that he wasn't referring to homosexual behavior. "

The Question wrote on Nov 18, 2009 9:33 AM:

" You astoundingly arrogant fundamentalist Christians seem to have missed the point that gays, Jews, Buddhists, atheists and many others do not exist for you or for the sake of your outlandish religious fantasies, and do not care whether you babble on and on about "mortal sin" or "divine judgment" or some other such blithering nonsense.
This universe does not revolve around you and your puerile beliefs. Galileo demonstrated that when you religious fools were still insisting that the sun revolved around the earth, remember?
So other people have a right to exist on this planet, whether you like it or not. You just make yourselves look ridiculous with your knuckle-dragging arrogance. Grow up. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 18, 2009 10:48 AM:

" Mr. Hendren part of growing up is learning that this is a world with great variety (plants, climates, traditions, people, animals, religions and non-religions), that people who are different from you (for whatever reason--race, ethnicity, sexual preference, belief or non-belief)aren't your enemies, that there is room for all of "gods" creatures and that it is up to us humans (the enlightened ones) to nurture and care for this planet for the benefit of all of us (all living things). I hope that one day you will grow up. "

chucktowntownie wrote on Nov 18, 2009 12:25 PM:

" In response to: "We could learn a lot from the homosexual community.

Yeah, according to your own bible, we can learn how to spend eternity in Hell.
And by the way, Homosexual couples separate too. "

How's your shellfish? Do you pray with your head covered? Do you play football? If you want to go all Old Testament, then beware the hypocrite. Unless you are following ALL the restrictions, then there is a seat in hell for you, too, by this reasoning anyway. "

father bob wrote on Nov 18, 2009 2:47 PM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 18, 2009 1:28 PM:
"He's certainly lucky we're right about metaphysics, and he's wrong. He really ought to thank us for that, FB. """""

yep, on his knees grovelling. "

The Question wrote on Nov 18, 2009 2:50 PM:

" It's beginning to look a lot like time for Fox News' holiday tradition of phony outrage over a nonexistent "War on Christmas."
Ding-dong, ding-dong, go the ding-dongs. "

father bob wrote on Nov 18, 2009 2:56 PM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 18, 2009 2:50 PM:
" It's beginning to look a lot like time for Fox News' holiday tradition of phony outrage over a nonexistent "War on Christmas."""""

yeah.....after they find fault in whatever way he'll be spending thanksgiving.....stay tuned. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 18, 2009 2:58 PM:

" The Supreme Court ruled today that there can be NO Nativity Scenes in Washington DC this year.

Apparently they can't find 3 wise men or a Virgin anywhere. "

medic57 wrote on Nov 18, 2009 3:01 PM:

" Susan

Which one of the worlds major relegions don't condem Homosexuality? Christianity? Judaism? Islam. I like the interview on Fox a while back, O'Rielly ask an Arab how they treated Homosexuals in his country, his reply, we don't have any. "

father bob wrote on Nov 18, 2009 4:04 PM:

" medic57 wrote on Nov 18, 2009 3:01 PM:
"I like the interview on Fox a while back, O'Rielly ask an Arab how they treated Homosexuals in his country, his reply, we don't have any. """""

it wasn't billo, and it wasn't "an arab". "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 18, 2009 8:35 PM:

" " The Supreme Court ruled today that there can be NO Nativity Scenes in Washington DC this year.

Apparently they can't find 3 wise men or a Virgin anywhere. "
__________________

...atta-boy medic57...now that was funny... "

what? wrote on Nov 18, 2009 11:12 PM:

" When we die all this nonsense becomes moot. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 11:46 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 18, 2009 8:02 AM:
" Now that is really twisted reasoning Mr. Hendren, because I don't believe in Hell I can't understand TRUE love. Because I say that all religions are valid, Christianity is no better or worse than any other I want to limit freedom of religious choice. You really are one messed up person. "

You missed it completely. Since you do not believe it impossible for you to comprehend God's love. That fact that you believe all religions to be the same, which they are not, means nothing. You believe in nothing. You can not fathom what you do not understand. The concept of God giving up his only Son is beyond your comprehension, and that is why you do not understand Godly, love. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 11:47 PM:

" prairieguy wrote on Nov 18, 2009 8:03 AM:
" jrhendren - you quote the bible and then say "facts are facts." The bible. Facts. Are you serious? If you mean it's a fact that it's in there, fine, but you quote it as if it were written by a god with pen and papyrus. "

Not a god, but the God. I believe the Scriptures to be God breathed as it states. That God had a hand in writing every word of the Scriptures. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 11:53 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 18, 2009 8:11 AM:
" I have pointed out several times Mr. Hendren that the words used in Corinthians (Malakoi and arsenokoitai) have been mistranslated. AND that sir is fact.

Correct by you and your twisting there meanings.
________________________________________

Malakos appears only four times in the New Testament and three of those times it means soft, so in Corinthians when it is used it would mean soft, effeminate person which could be a man like you or it could be a homosexual. Arsenokoitai appears only twice in the Bible and is best translated as a Pederast. I suggest you look that word up.

I have and it is nice to see you are still condemning any man who has any feminine tendencies. You have the nerve to say I am full of hatred. Why do you condemn men who are the littlest feminine. You should be ashamed.
________________________________________

The admonition is against sexual exploitation not against homosexuality. Homophilia the word in common usage during Biblical times that meant "homosexuality" never appears in the Bible.

Yes it does as in Corinthians. Also what a nice stretch to make it into exploration which it is not. Try learning some Greek, and not Google till you find someone to agree with you. Lincoln Christian College offers an excellent Greek class.
________________________________________

Surely God if he was all perfect would have chosen that word if he wanted his message to be clear. The fact that he didn't means that he wasn't referring to homosexual behavior. "

His message is clear, except to the unbeliever who wants to make a mockery of him, and condone sin. (That would be you in case you could not figure it out.) "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 11:56 PM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 18, 2009 9:33 AM:
" You astoundingly arrogant fundamentalist Christians seem to have missed the point that gays, Jews, Buddhists, atheists and many others do not exist for you or for the sake of your outlandish religious fantasies, and do not care whether you babble on and on about "mortal sin" or "divine judgment" or some other such blithering nonsense.
This universe does not revolve around you and your puerile beliefs. Galileo demonstrated that when you religious fools were still insisting that the sun revolved around the earth, remember?
So other people have a right to exist on this planet, whether you like it or not. You just make yourselves look ridiculous with your knuckle-dragging arrogance. Grow up. "

Maybe you should read instead of type. I have always said everyone has the right to there own opinion. That is what is great about this country and free will. I however, just as you do, have the right to voice my opinion. Just like Susan it is you who wants to stop freedom of speech when it is what you do not like to hear. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 19, 2009 12:00 AM:

" chucktowntownie wrote on Nov 18, 2009 12:25 PM:
" In response to: "We could learn a lot from the homosexual community.

Yeah, according to your own bible, we can learn how to spend eternity in Hell.
And by the way, Homosexual couples separate too. "

How's your shellfish? Do you pray with your head covered? Do you play football? If you want to go all Old Testament, then beware the hypocrite. Unless you are following ALL the restrictions, then there is a seat in hell for you, too, by this reasoning anyway. "

Before you go there you might want to read the New Testament, where Christ and God both do away with eating restrictions. Also you might want to read the Gospels to see that Christ did away with parts of the Law. We are not under the Law but a New Covenant. He fulfilled the Law and it was done away with when he arose. The Law was written about him. Read Matthew 5, the Acts of The Apostles, along with Paul's Epistles. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 19, 2009 12:06 AM:

" medic57 wrote on Nov 18, 2009 2:58 PM:
" The Supreme Court ruled today that there can be NO Nativity Scenes in Washington DC this year.

Apparently they can't find 3 wise men or a Virgin anywhere. "

LOL!!! Nice tension breaker. "

The Question wrote on Nov 19, 2009 6:45 AM:

" LOL!!! Nice tension breaker.
---
Oh, are you tense, JR? Personally, I'm enjoying myself. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 19, 2009 7:51 AM:

" If Gods message was clear Mr. Hendren there wouldn't be many different translations of the Bible nor any room for interpretation. With these two words in Corinthians alone what is the TRUE word of God? King James effeminate nor abusers os themselves with mankind; New King James homosexuals nor sodomites; Jerusalem sodomites or catamites; Revised Standard homosexuals; New International male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders; Contemporary English behaves like a homosexual; Inclusive New Testament hustlers and pederasts; Oxford Annotated male prostitutes and sodomites. The reality Mr. Hendren how you choose to interpret the Bible, whether it is to promote fear and hate and justify the persecution of others as you do or as I do to find the hidden message that all that matters is how you treat your fellow man (all of them especially those that are different from you) tells alot about the kind of person YOU are. It tells us nothing about what "God" believes or wants. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 19, 2009 7:59 AM:

" Sacrificing another in anger or to punish someone or for your own twisted reasons is NOT Love Mr. Hendren. Blind obedience to evil actions is NOT Love Mr. Hendren. A LOVING "God" would have just sighed and tried another way to reach his racalcitrant children. A LOVING "God" would have realized that he had messed up and sent another saint or saviour to clean up his mess! "

AnnaNiemaus wrote on Nov 19, 2009 9:08 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 12:00 AM:
" vagabond 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2009 7:29 PM:
" Will one of you smart biblical scholars name a book, chapter and verse where JESUS spoke about homosexuality. You will find many places where it is discussed, but not by Jesus. HMMMMM? "

Paul spoke of it in 1 Corinthians, since he was an apostle chosen by Jesus he speaks for him. In Mathew 19:4-5 Jesus speaks of marriage as a man and woman. Both would be from God, thus there is your chapter and verse. "

A little context goes a long way...let's expand Matthew 19 a little, shall we?

Matthew 19:3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
(4) "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'
(5) and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
(6) So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." "

father bob wrote on Nov 19, 2009 10:06 AM:

" speaking of these self-proclaimed "christians".

you have to laugh at the do-gooders in the former state of texas. seems as though in trying to ban gay marriage, they ended up nullifying all marriages in the state. seems like little pesky details like "wording" do matter. "

father bob wrote on Nov 19, 2009 10:19 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on Nov 16, 2009 11:50 PM:
"To not let them know is hurting them and yourself. """""

you'd make a great mormon.... "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 19, 2009 2:17 PM:

" you have to laugh at the do-gooders in the former state of texas. seems as though in trying to ban gay marriage, they ended up nullifying all marriages in the state. seems like little pesky details like "wording" do matter. "
-----------

Did they really nullify all marriages in the state of Texas, Father Bob?

If so, good.

Christians should be screaming "separation of church and state, separation of church and state" over having to be licensed by the state to get married.

In 1923, the Federal Government established the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act. By 1929, every state in the Union had adopted marriage license laws.

But why do people need to be licensed for an act that is, in essence, a religious ritual and/or a contractual arrangement? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Nov 19, 2009 2:23 PM:

" Blind obedience to evil actions is NOT Love Mr. Hendren. A LOVING "God" would have realized that he had messed up and sent another saint or saviour to clean up his mess! "
----------------------------------

And there you have it...shumphreys knows GOD'S prerogatives...and knows exactly what GOD should do.

Hallelujah!!!

shumphreys...the prophetess and messiah!

I wonder if Oba-Mao knows he has competition? "

father bob wrote on Nov 19, 2009 4:56 PM:

" AnnaNiemaus wrote on Nov 19, 2009 9:08 AM:
"In Mathew 19:4-5 Jesus speaks of marriage as a man and woman. Both would be from God, thus there is your chapter and verse. """""

he didn't condemn homosexuality, did he..? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 19, 2009 11:35 PM:

" The Question wrote on Nov 19, 2009 6:45 AM:
" LOL!!! Nice tension breaker.
---
Oh, are you tense, JR? Personally, I'm enjoying myself. "

Not at all. I'm enjoying myself also. I just let you all go on, and bury yourselves. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 19, 2009 11:55 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 19, 2009 7:51 AM:
" If Gods message was clear Mr. Hendren there wouldn't be many different translations of the Bible nor any room for interpretation.

That of course is not true. The different translations have come about through the finding of better manuscripts, and making the word easier as language changes. For instance, we no longer speak in the old English vernacular. Each translation has its place. Whether it is for reading, teaching, studying, or what ever the case maybe. I would recommend you read something about how the different translations came about you might learn something.
________________________________________

With these two words in Corinthians alone what is the TRUE word of God? King James effeminate nor abusers os themselves with mankind; New King James homosexuals nor sodomites; Jerusalem sodomites or catamites; Revised Standard homosexuals; New International male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders; Contemporary English behaves like a homosexual; Inclusive New Testament hustlers and pederasts; Oxford Annotated male prostitutes and sodomites. The reality Mr. Hendren how you choose to interpret the Bible, whether it is to promote fear and hate and justify the persecution of others as you do or as I do to find the hidden message that all that matters is how you treat your fellow man (all of them especially those that are different from you) tells alot about the kind of person YOU are. It tells us nothing about what "God" believes or wants. "

First all the above verses are saying the same thing, unless you twist them as you like to do so well. You accuse we of persecuting others, yet it is you again who is trying to make the verse be against anyone who acts feminine. Why you hate all feminine men is beyond me. Just as your hatred for anyone who believes in God. I have said over and over again that I have homosexual friends and family. Do you? If I hated them so much would I acknowledge them? Logic once again prevails over your made up accusations. I love all as Christ loves all. That is why you can't get it. Wanting to save someone from anguish is more loving then you and your all do what ever they want. I look for no "hidden message", that would be you making the Scriptures say what you want even if you have to twist them.
________________________________________

shumphreys wrote on Nov 19, 2009 7:59 AM:
" Sacrificing another in anger or to punish someone or for your own twisted reasons is NOT Love Mr. Hendren.

When did I ever say anything about sacrificing another out of anger, or punish them for my reasons? Are you hearing voices, does Elvis talk to you at night? The sacrificing I spoke of was God and his Son to save us. That is LOVE, that is the Ultimate Love.
________________________________________

Blind obedience to evil actions is NOT Love Mr. Hendren. A LOVING "God" would have just sighed and tried another way to reach his racalcitrant children. A LOVING "God" would have realized that he had messed up and sent another saint or saviour to clean up his mess! "

Blind obedience to evil actions is not love, so why do you do it?
God did not "mess up" we did. We, mankind, fell to temptation. To become gods. In doing so we brought sin into the world. God loved his creation, us, so much he gave the ultimate sacrifice, his Son to die for us. The last blood sacrifice their would ever have to be again. I would not give up one of my children for anyone, yet God gave up his one and only Son for us, people who frankly don't deserve it. Wow!! How Awesome of a God he is!! I again say, that since you do not know him, you can not understand the sacrifice he gave. The Love God has for us. Though I pray someday you will. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 20, 2009 12:01 AM:

" AnnaNiemaus wrote on Nov 19, 2009 9:08 AM:
" jrhendren wrote on Nov 18, 2009 12:00 AM:
" vagabond 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2009 7:29 PM:
" Will one of you smart biblical scholars name a book, chapter and verse where JESUS spoke about homosexuality. You will find many places where it is discussed, but not by Jesus. HMMMMM? "

Paul spoke of it in 1 Corinthians, since he was an apostle chosen by Jesus he speaks for him. In Mathew 19:4-5 Jesus speaks of marriage as a man and woman. Both would be from God, thus there is your chapter and verse. "

A little context goes a long way...let's expand Matthew 19 a little, shall we?

Matthew 19:3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
(4) "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'
(5) and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
(6) So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." "

Thank you for proving my point that marriage as that in the Scriptures is between a man and woman only. Jesus quoted from Genesis 2:24. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 20, 2009 12:10 AM:

" father bob wrote on Nov 19, 2009 10:06 AM:
" speaking of these self-proclaimed "christians".

you have to laugh at the do-gooders in the former state of texas. seems as though in trying to ban gay marriage, they ended up nullifying all marriages in the state. seems like little pesky details like "wording" do matter. "

You might want to read the bill. It does not make nullify all marriages at all. "creating or recognizing any legal status identical or similar to marriage." - Prop 2. Notice it says "identical or similar to marriage", not marriage in general. This is just an attempt to do away with an bill they don't like. You have to wonder what would have been said, if it was the right yelling about the bill.
________________________________________

father bob wrote on Nov 19, 2009 10:19 AM:
" jrhendren wrote on Nov 16, 2009 11:50 PM:
"To not let them know is hurting them and yourself. """""

you'd make a great mormon.... "

Actually I would not, I do not believe one can become a god. Mormonism is a Christian religion by name only. They do not hold Christ as the Savior but a prophet named Moroni. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 20, 2009 7:24 AM:

" Mr. Hendren as Ms Niemaus pointed out the passage you cite doesn't say that marriage is ONLY between a man and woman. Once again you interpret the Bible to fit your prejudice. The Bible is full of a variety of marriage options, polygamous, levirate, and don't forget that wonderful story of David and Jonathan. Homosexual unions were practiced in the early church and no where does the Bible forbid the practice. "

father bob wrote on Nov 20, 2009 12:03 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on Nov 20, 2009 12:17 AM:
" The Bible does, and since it is his Word, yes he did. By giving us the format of marriage, he is condemning the act of homosexuality, not the person the act."""""

so you're Jewish.....not christian. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 20, 2009 11:53 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 20, 2009 7:24 AM:
" Mr. Hendren as Ms Niemaus pointed out the passage you cite doesn't say that marriage is ONLY between a man and woman.

That's right I forgot you can not understand what you read unless you Goggle it. The passage, along with others, are the example of marriage. Marriage between a man and woman.
________________________________________

Once again you interpret the Bible to fit your prejudice.

Not at all that would be you trying to make it say what you want it to.
________________________________________

The Bible is full of a variety of marriage options, polygamous, levirate, and don't forget that wonderful story of David and Jonathan.

Here you go again with your made up story of David and Jonathan being homosexuals. Try reading the entire story. They were close friends that trusted each other with their lives. Just the same as a company in the military, officers on the streets, or those fighting fires together. You really need to read and not just Google. As for those other marriages options. Their is not case of a same sex marriage in them. In every case it is a man marrying woman. All be it in some cases more then one woman, but still not the same sex. Try again.
________________________________________

Homosexual unions were practiced in the early church and no where does the Bible forbid the practice. "

Actually they were not in the early church, and yes it does. By giving the example of what marriage is it is forbidding it. The Scriptures even say that an elder of the church can be the husband of only one wife. The word used for wife is that of a female. Once again you are talking about a subject you have no true knowledge of. "

BW wrote on Nov 21, 2009 9:32 AM:

" fb, how about the garbage you and your ilk attempt to feed everyone? "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:39 PM:

" Mr. Hendren I don't interpret the Bible to fit my prejudice I just report what Biblical scholars have to say. I accept the Bible for what it is. Even you admitted that it has allegorical tales. You just aren't willing to admit exactly how much is allegorical and how much isn't. And about Jonathan and David, the hebrew words used to describe their love indicate romantic, emotional attachment, not platonic. Go to "www.gaychristian101.com/Marriage-in-the-Bible.html" Very interesting reading. "

AnnaNiemaus wrote on Nov 21, 2009 11:49 PM:

" "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Mahatma Ghandi. "

revelation wrote on Nov 22, 2009 7:37 AM:

" Many of the stories in the Bible about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are sweet, full of eternal love. Others promise eternal damnation and hell. These are bitter. To shumpreys who wrote "that wonderful story of David and Jonathan", this is not a story about two lovers. It is a story about the love of two men toward each other. There is a difference between loving one another and being lovers of one another. What part of "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (LEVITCUS 18:22) do you not understand? REVELATION 10:8-11 (hint: the Holy Bible). Revelation. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 22, 2009 3:00 PM:

" What a hypocrite you are Revelation, you pick one part of Leviticus as being the word of God and ignore all the rest? Either they are all the word of God and must be obeyed or they are the words of men written for a specific group of people at a specific point in their history and as such need to be understood in that way. We have come a long way since then and we now know that their isn't anything immoral or sinful about homosexual relationships, there is a great deal of sin in those that condemn such relationships. "

revelation wrote on Nov 22, 2009 11:25 PM:

" shumphreys, First you call me a name (hypocrite), then you bear false witness against me by saying I haven't read the Bible except one book (LEVITCUS) and then you claim sex with the a same sex person is not a sin. I think you are a victim of very bad information. I have read both the Old and New Testaments. From the New Testament, if you chose to read the Bible, you should read ROMANS 1:22,24,26,27. ROMANS 8:5,13,16. 1 TIMOthy 1:8-10. Titus 1:15,16. Titus 2:11,12. And Jude7,8. These are not my words. These are from men filled with the Holy Ghost giving us Gods instructions to live by. I know a man can love a man and a woman can love a woman. I also know Jesus said love one another. But nowhere do I read that men are to have sex with men or women are to have sex with women. Over and over the word of God tells us not to do these things. Now this is from the Old King James, and you may have some other Bible. If you could please produce some verse of some kind which would justify why God says it's OK. revelation. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:49 AM:

" Revelation you are a hypocrite if you pick one section of the Bible and claim that it is the word of God and ignore the rest that are either inconvenient or don't fit your agenda. I have also read both Old and New Testaments and the Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, Gilgamesh, and many, many other sacred books. Titus says nothing about homosexuality which is what we were discussing. Now as to Jude which mentions Sodom and Gomorrah I refer you to Ezekial 16: 49, 50 "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and neeedy. And they were haughty, and committeed abominations before me: therefore I took them away." You might also read Jude 1: 4, 7, 8 Nowhere is homosexual behavior mentioned. And as to what those abominations to God, read Proverbs 6: 16-19 "These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." One again homosexuality is NOT mentioned. BUT several things that you committed in your response to me. For example I didn't acuse you of "bear false witness against me by saying I haven't read the Bible except one book...." "

This Is What I Know...Kind of wrote on Nov 23, 2009 2:36 PM:

" I have lived in this community for ten years, now, and believe that truly wonderful people live here. I have never felt compelled to register to make comments on this site, until today. I have spent a long time - probably too much time :) - reading comments regarding different issues...political, religious and local issues. I have noticed that there are some "regulars" making comments and have tried to keep all the comments that each of them have made, straight...but, it is difficult, since I have read so many. I suppose the reason I felt compelled to comment, because I want to make something clear to the "regulars".

For me, an "outsider", I see all of you as very intelligent, educated and passionate about what you believe in. All attributes, that I feel a person should be proud of. I enjoyed reading all of your comments, especially the ones regarding religioun. When I began reading some of your comments, I realized that even when I didn't agree TOTALLY with what someone said, it caused me to see an angle that I had not seen before. I still may not have necessarily altered my view in any great way, RIGHT NOW, but it definitely gave me food for thought. I very much appreciate being able to read both sides of an issue - and, at some point, one of you has requested sources for someone's comment, which I was QUITE pleased with, as I like to look things up myself so that not only do I have the opportunity to read someone else's view, but decide for myself if I believe the same interpretation after reading the source. Anyway, I appreciate what all of you have done. I have benefited from it from learning information that I did not know.

It saddens me though to see some of the derogatory remarks and name calling. You all are intelligent people and, to me, the best way to "convert" someone to your way of thinking and express your point, is with logic, passion and credible sources - nasty remarks make you less than you are; you are all better than that. The reason I believe that, by the way, is because I have read instances where a person's comments seemed to change their tone at different points - as if, they realized how they were starting to sound and regretted it.

Sometimes, a comment will state that someone else should keep their opinions to themselves, because noone cares. I, for one, do care. I do not have the time or energy to look up every question I have ever had and sift through all the different interpretations to figure out which one is "correct", so your comments - from both sides of an issue - are VERY helpful, to me, because they allow me to see another person's point of view and give me a source I didn't know existed. I can't believe that I am the only one that appreciates everything all of you have to say, so, please, all of you, keep it up. "

revelation wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:27 PM:

" shumphreys It is true that homosexuality is not a sin. It's the having sexual realations with someone of the same sex that is a sin. It's a sin because God said so. Your fight really is with God. God word, the Bible tells us of a lot of things that are sinful, and also that everyone of us is guility of sin sometime in our lives. Jesus came to free us from sin and to have an everlasting life with him in Heaven. As to the orginal subject of not enough love being taught, I know this is true, and we need more of it. Amen. "

dstew66 wrote on Nov 23, 2009 5:54 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:49 AM:

" Revelation you are a hypocrite if you pick one section of the Bible and claim that it is the word of God and ignore the rest that are either inconvenient or don't fit your agenda."

Pot or kettle? "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:17 PM:

" Revelation since I don't believe in your concept of God there is no God to have an argument with! Now as to whether the Bible condemns homosexual activity, that is clear it doesn't. We can dispense with Leviticus since you obviously don't like being called a hypocrite and look to other citations in the Bible. I have already explained in previous posts about the mistranslation of the words Malakoi and Arsenokoitai (effeminate, abusers of themselves, sodomites, pederasts, hustlers, homosexuals) I suggest you google the two words. The word homophilia which was the common word that referred to homosexuals and homosexual activity was never used in the Bible. But other than that the Bible once condoned slavery and back to Leviticus listed rules for dealing with slaves, Paul in the New Testament said it was OK to hold non Christians as slaves but not Christians. Today we as a wiser, more enlightened, more compassionate people have realized that any slavery is wrong. Just as we who are wiser, more enlightened and more compassionate realize that there is NOTHING wrong with a loving homosexual relationship between consenting adults. "

revelation wrote on Nov 23, 2009 8:24 PM:

" GENESIS 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. GENESIS 19:5 And they (talking about the men of Sodom, the sodomites) called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. (Remember, this is the same kind of expression from GENESIS 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived ...) GENESIS 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 19:8 Behold I have two daughters which have not known men; and do ye to them ... only unto these men do nothing ... (Here Lot is offering his daughters for sex to the men who were outside.) 19:10 But the men (inside) put forth their hand and pulled Lot (back) into the house ... and shut the the door. 19:12 And the men said unto Lot ... 19:13 ... we will destroy this place, because ... the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. (Now Sodom is written about in 14 books of the Bible, almost always in a bad, bad way.) JUDE 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (These verses are from the Old and New Testaments, not from just one section of Bible. And it seems you know by heart) LEVITICUS 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. 18:30 ... defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them; have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death ... (There are some people who have taken the last verse to mean something else, but it is talking about God's judgement someday. Here again I didn't write the Bible.) "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:38 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 21, 2009 2:39 PM:
" Mr. Hendren I don't interpret the Bible to fit my prejudice I just report what Biblical scholars have to say."

Let's be truthful now. You report what anti-Bible scholars say, after you Google them.
________________________________________
"I accept the Bible for what it is. Even you admitted that it has allegorical tales. You just aren't willing to admit exactly how much is allegorical and how much isn't."

Wrong again. First you do not take it for what it is. You mock it, and God. Second, It is clear when Christ is using allegory and when he is not. Anyone who has taken any English class should have no problems with that.
________________________________________

And about Jonathan and David, the hebrew words used to describe their love indicate romantic, emotional attachment, not platonic. Go to "www.gaychristian101.com/Marriage-in-the-Bible.html" Very interesting reading. "

So is the original languages, you might want to read them. The words used are those of a friendship of like those in the military. Those that love the other in a way they would give their life for them, not in a sexual way. As for your web site, wow!, a pro-homosexual website skewing the truth for their agenda. LOL!!! Who could have guressed that. Like their "God accepts polygamist
relationships." True that he allows them, but he never says that he excepts them. The only model of marriage God, or Christ speak of is between one man and one woman. Try reading the entire Bible sometime, as you said, "Very interesting reading". "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 23, 2009 11:45 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:17 PM:
" Revelation since I don't believe in your concept of God there is no God to have an argument with! Now as to whether the Bible condemns homosexual activity, that is clear it doesn't. We can dispense with Leviticus since you obviously don't like being called a hypocrite and look to other citations in the Bible. I have already explained in previous posts about the mistranslation of the words Malakoi and Arsenokoitai (effeminate, abusers of themselves, sodomites, pederasts, hustlers, homosexuals) I suggest you google the two words.

Her she goes anyone who has a feminine sid is going to Hell. Quit that Susan, oh and quit the lies of the languages. Take a Greek class and learn the truth, not what your Google buddies tell you.
________________________________________

The word homophilia which was the common word that referred to homosexuals and homosexual activity was never used in the Bible. But other than that the Bible once condoned slavery and back to Leviticus listed rules for dealing with slaves, Paul in the New Testament said it was OK to hold non Christians as slaves but not Christians.
Today we as a wiser, more enlightened, more compassionate people have realized that any slavery is wrong. Just as we who are wiser, more enlightened and more compassionate realize that there is NOTHING wrong with a loving homosexual relationship between consenting adults. "

Wrong again, try looking at what Greek words really mean. Indentured servants not actually slaves as we know it. Yo are once again trying to make words fit into what you believe them to be using American history. The sooner you take a class the better off you would be. "

dstew66 wrote on Nov 24, 2009 6:14 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 23, 2009 7:17 PM:

"Paul in the New Testament said it was OK to hold non Christians as slaves but not Christians."

Would you care to cite your source?

"Today we as a wiser, more enlightened, more compassionate people have realized that any slavery is wrong."

Then why do you promote it? Government run health-care is nothing more than forced servitude upon those of us who want no part of it. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:11 AM:

" Revelation do you eat shellfish, lobster, pork? Do you lock your women away in a separate area when they menstruate? Do you celebrate the Jewish holidays as prescribed? Are you or were your sons circumcised on the 8th day after their birth and ..... Leviticus is all about dos and do nots including chapter 19 about lying, cheating, business relationships with others. There are parts about adultery and divorce. Violations of any of the laws of Leviticus are "an abomination to the Lord". Selecting one of the laws out as being worse, the people that commit it deserving of extra punishment/penaltys/sanctions (denying the right to marry) is pure hypocrisy. There is no other word for it and that makes you a hypocrit. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:16 AM:

" BUT Revelation there is an even stronger argument. Our society has come a long way since Leviticus was written. The Bible sanctioned/approved of many things that we now know are wrong/immoral/unjust and we have passed laws that outlaw those practices. Wiser, more compassionate people KNOW that there is nothing wrong with a loving, consensual relationship between same sex couples. The Bible and God (if he was the author) are just plain wrong/immoral/unjust in the pronouncement against homosexual activity as the Bible was about slavery, about slaughtering innocent men, women and children in war, about eating shrimp and lobster and pork, about.......many other things. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:22 AM:

" Now Revelation back to Sodom, I didn't say Sodom was a model of virtue. I did point out why Sodom was destroyed and it wasn't for homosexual activity, or because it was full of homosexual people. It was destroyed because it was full of people who didn't treat others well, people who were greedy, haughty, lied, cheated their neighbors and strangers. People who subjugated other people for their own greedy purposes. AND yes there were sexual misdeeds, the only way for a male to sexualy subjugate another is by sodomy which is done by heterosexuals purely as a sign of power. The lesson of Sodom is about ABUSE of others. It isn't against loving, consensual sexual relationships between same sex couples. "

The Question wrote on Nov 24, 2009 10:06 AM:

" Teaching love? When Bill Clinton was in office, right wing religious loons like the Rev. Falwell were busy shrieking how terrible it was that one of the Teletubbies was "gay."
That's what those Fox News-fed fruitbats thought was vitally important at the end of the 20th century -- speculation about the theoretical sexuality of fictional children's television characters who have no genitals.
Well, after eight horrible years in charge, the Republicans finally managed to give us something serious to worry about, just as I knew they would. "

dstew66 wrote on Nov 24, 2009 11:13 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:22 AM:

"it was full of people who didn't treat others well, people who were greedy, haughty, lied, cheated their neighbors and strangers. People who subjugated other people for their own greedy purposes. AND yes there were sexual misdeeds,"

Interesting. Your description of Sodom also seems to fit Washington D.C.

If the shoe fits. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:59 PM:

" Dstew66 you can google Biblical Slavery and find a great variety of articles. One source is Philemon but it is rather vague, Paul discreetly suggests that Onesimus be freed since he is a brother in Christ. Also in first Corinthians Paul suggests that it is best of slaves lawfully obtain their manumission again as they are brothers in Christ. There are other passages where Paul states that there are neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor masters in Christ. BUT he never comes out directly and condemns the institution of slavery. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 1:03 PM:

" Dstew66 providing health care/insurance for ALL is not "government run servitude" as you put it by any stretch of your twisted imagination. It is even a BIG stretch to claim that a government option or that the current plans before Congress are government run programs. But folks like you like to twist and stretch the truth rather than address the issue. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 11:35 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:11 AM:
" Revelation do you eat shellfish, lobster, pork? Do you lock your women away in a separate area when they menstruate? Do you celebrate the Jewish holidays as prescribed? Are you or were your sons circumcised on the 8th day after their birth and ..... Leviticus is all about dos and do nots including chapter 19 about lying, cheating, business relationships with others. There are parts about adultery and divorce. Violations of any of the laws of Leviticus are "an abomination to the Lord". Selecting one of the laws out as being worse, the people that commit it deserving of extra punishment/penaltys/sanctions (denying the right to marry) is pure hypocrisy. There is no other word for it and that makes you a hypocrit. "

Susan do you know how to read the entire Bible and see that Jesus fulfilled the Law, and only re-instituted part of it. That in the book Acts of The Apostles God himself told Peter not to call anything unclean that he calls clean. Oh, that's right that goes against your argument so we have to ignore those verses. As you said, "There is no other word for it and that makes you a hypocrite." "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 11:40 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 12:59 PM:
" Dstew66 you can google Biblical Slavery and find a great variety of articles. One source is Philemon but it is rather vague, Paul discreetly suggests that Onesimus be freed since he is a brother in Christ. Also in first Corinthians Paul suggests that it is best of slaves lawfully obtain their manumission again as they are brothers in Christ. There are other passages where Paul states that there are neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor masters in Christ. BUT he never comes out directly and condemns the institution of slavery. "

Susan once again admits she does no research herself, "Dstew66 you can google Biblical Slavery and find a great variety of articles." However, when you go back to the original languages you see that the Greek word used was that of an indentured servant. Susan has this problem, being enlightened and all, that she must use U.S. History to define all words. Slavery of the Bible is not that of our slavery we had in the United States. She can not grasp that. Hey Susan how many articles did you read to find someone who agreed with you? Read all the Scriptures, and look at the meaning of words in the original languages. You at least would somewhat know what you are talking about. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 24, 2009 11:48 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 1:03 PM:
" Dstew66 providing health care/insurance for ALL is not "government run servitude" as you put it by any stretch of your twisted imagination. It is even a BIG stretch to claim that a government option or that the current plans before Congress are government run programs. But folks like you like to twist and stretch the truth rather than address the issue. "

This from the lady who tries to make the verse "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders..." 1 Corinthians 6:9 mean not homosexual offenders, but any man who is feminine acting in not to inherit the kingdom of God.
This from the lady who said Obama didn't have a plan, though he said so many times in his speech to Congress. This from the lady who said Planned Parenthood did not say abstinence was the best way to keep from getting STD's or pregnant. Though it says so on their web page. Now we have, "a government option or that the current plans before Congress are government run programs". Though the bill states, "The federal government's health insurance plan will be financed entirely by premiums without subsidy from the Federal government." - H.R. 3962
Susan, who is it that likes "to twist and stretch the truth rather than address the issue."? That would be you. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:47 AM:

" Dstew the description of Sodom fits lots of small towns and big cities around the world, which is why the story is timeless and universal. Which is why the Bible is well worth reading for those that will read it thoughtfully. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 25, 2009 12:55 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:47 AM:
" Dstew the description of Sodom fits lots of small towns and big cities around the world, which is why the story is timeless and universal. Which is why the Bible is well worth reading for those that will read it thoughtfully. "

Unlike yourself who reads only what they want out of it. As for Sodom again you might want to do some research using all the Scriptures. It was destroyed over its sinful sexual behavior. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:07 PM:

" If Jesus fulfilled the law Mr. Hendren why do folks like Revelation keep using Leviticus to justify the persecution of Homosexuals? Perhaps they should just stick to the New Testament but that does present a problem since homosexual behavior isn't condemened there either. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:11 PM:

" Sorry Mr. Hendren I have pointed out how there are many different translations and mistranslations of the two words in Corinthians. I have also pointed out wiser, more compassionat, people who have read the Bible and other literature have determined that there isn't anything sinful about a loving, consensual relationship between same sex adults. BUT there is something sinful with those that condemn and persecute homosexuals. AND your Bible even tells you so! "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:13 PM:

" Oh and Mr. Hendren reading the research and writings of others as I do is far better than what you do which appears to be to read nothing! It is time to grow up Mr. Hendren. "

parky1 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 7:48 PM:

" You're critisizing the church? God will get you for that. Why not point your finger or use your lips and critisize the real culprits. I'd start with the laws and lawmakers. "

dstew66 wrote on Nov 25, 2009 9:36 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 24, 2009 8:22 AM:

"I did point out why Sodom was destroyed and it wasn't for homosexual activity, or because it was full of homosexual people. It was destroyed because it was full of people who didn't treat others well, people who were greedy, haughty, lied, cheated their neighbors and strangers. . ."

shumphreys, you agree that Sodom was destroyed as recorded in the Scriptures.

Those same Scriptures tell who it was that destroyed Sodom:

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

The same God you don't believe in is the same God who destroyed Sodom. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 25, 2009 11:41 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:07 PM:
" If Jesus fulfilled the law Mr. Hendren why do folks like Revelation keep using Leviticus to justify the persecution of Homosexuals? Perhaps they should just stick to the New Testament but that does present a problem since homosexual behavior isn't condemened there either. "

Except in 1 Corinthians, oh that's right you say it condemns any man who acts feminine. You really need to take that Greek class and understand the language.
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shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:11 PM:
" Sorry Mr. Hendren I have pointed out how there are many different translations and mistranslations of the two words in Corinthians.

No you have not, you have twisted the meaning to mean what you want. You have replaced words and meanings. Once again Greek class.
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I have also pointed out wiser, more compassionat, people who have read the Bible and other literature have determined that there isn't anything sinful about a loving, consensual relationship between same sex adults. BUT there is something sinful with those that condemn and persecute homosexuals. AND your Bible even tells you so! "

First I guess you are not one of the more compassionate since you condemn any man with a feminine, or "soft" side as you say. Second, those you quoted from saying that the Bible does not condemn homosexual acts, are from a homosexual base and therefore have an agenda at hand. The Scriptures are clear on the subject, it is you who wants to make them cloudy.
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shumphreys wrote on Nov 25, 2009 1:13 PM:
" Oh and Mr. Hendren reading the research and writings of others as I do is far better than what you do which appears to be to read nothing! It is time to grow up Mr. Hendren. "

LOL!!! Lady again you couldn't hold a candle to the research I do. It is not research to Google until you find someone to agree with you. When you take that Greek language class and understand what words mean then come talk to me about research. I have written more papers then you ever will to the editor. I cite my sources that would be you who does not. You Google, as you have admitted to, until you find someone who agrees with you. Then you make their words to be your. I just have to laugh, you really get flustered when you are losing and argument. Try reading the Scriptures instead of what your anti-Christian buddies write you might be surprised what you could learn. LOL!!! "reading the research and writings of others as I do is far better than what you do". She actually admitted that she does not research on her own, but takes others words for it. LOL!!! I bet she doesn't even realize what she has done. LOL!!! "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:17 AM:

" DSTEW66 as I said I accept the reality that the story of Sodom is an allegorical story. Just as God is an allegorical concept, a humanistic way to explain what simple men (like you?)can't understand or are too frightened to learn about so they can understand.You can free yourself from fear and superstition but it does take work. As they say nothing in life is free, not even your own salvation! "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:24 AM:

" Mr. Hendren hold a candle to you, why of course not I am far ahead of you and a candle wouldn't do you any good. I am not sure that even a search light could help you find your way. Face it Mr. Hendren you can't win these arguments. So why do you bother? Why not just accept the fact that other people hold beliefs that are different from yours and they and their beliefs are just as TRUE, just as HOLY, just as GOOD as yours. No single religion or non-religion is any better or worse than any other. They can ALL help you become a better person or they can help you become a worse one. You have shown us time and again the path you have chosen to follow. I have chosen a path that is different and right for me. AND it is a path where I am willing to speak up for the rights of others, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual, religious or non-religious, whether they choose to have an abortion or not. You seem only interested in your self. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 26, 2009 7:55 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:24 AM:
" Mr. Hendren hold a candle to you, why of course not I am far ahead of you and a candle wouldn't do you any good. I am not sure that even a search light could help you find your way. Face it Mr. Hendren you can't win these arguments.

LOL!!! Now you are going to turn around and say the same thing I have told you. Running out of material are we? You are far from being ahead of me. How do you get that you are ahead of me? You refuse to even do your own research. You refuse to look into what the Hebrew and Greek words of the Scriptures say. You refuse to cross reference Scriptures to see what is being said. Oh you make me laugh. Thanks for always being good for a least that.
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So why do you bother? Why not just accept the fact that other people hold beliefs that are different from yours..."

I am the one who has said over and over again that their are those that have different views and are allowed to. I am the one who believes that everyone has the right to believe as they wish. It is you who tells people they can not believe in God, or the Bible because you do not.
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"...and they and their beliefs are just as TRUE, just as HOLY, just as GOOD as yours. No single religion or non-religion is any better or worse than any other.

In your opinion. I happen to believe in the Holy Scriptures and they say that Christ is the only way to Heaven.
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They can ALL help you become a better person or they can help you become a worse one. You have shown us time and again the path you have chosen to follow.

That being the path to help others.
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I have chosen a path that is different and right for me. AND it is a path where I am willing to speak up for the rights of others, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual, religious or non-religious, whether they choose to have an abortion or not. You seem only interested in your self. "

You really do not understand do you. You have chosen a path of self righteousness. You supposedly speak for the rights of others, except those that can not speak for themselves. Those like the unborn. You use the homosexual lifestyle to feed your own ego, your own agenda. Your right you have chosen a different path. One of selfishness. You can not even grasp the Gift of Grace. You do not know God, because you do not believe in him, therefore you do not understand his Word, and who he is. You can not understand wanting to save someone from Hell, because you do not believe in Hell. That is your problem. "

dstew66 wrote on Nov 26, 2009 10:18 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2009 11:17 AM:

" DSTEW66 as I said I accept the reality that the story of Sodom is an allegorical story."

The "story" of Sodom, as you describe it, is more than just a "story." It is a historical fact. The ruins of the city have been found, along with the accompanying brimstone.

The city was indeed destroyed by a Holy God for all manner of unrighteousness, not exclusively, but including homosexuality.

You may have a god that approves of homosexuality, even if that god is yourself. However, THE God of Scriptures does not now nor does he ever condone nor accept the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuality is a sin the same as murder (which would include abortion), stealing, adultery and coveting. THE God does not condone any of those actions.

You are entitled to believe as you wish. God does not force his will on anyone. You want to sin, you are free to do so. You want to mock God, you are free to do so. Just be aware that your time to do so is limited. Every one of us will one day stand before the judgment seat of Messiah. It doesn't matter if you believe that or not. You will be there and you will answer to an authority higher than anyone on these forums. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 27, 2009 7:18 AM:

" Mr. Hendren its not that you don't understand it is just that you refuse to admit that you understand. Your insistance on your interpretation of Christianity as being the only TRUTH, all other interpretations and religious beliefs are lies or false is SELF-Rightousness. My stating that ALL religious beliefs are just as TRUE as any other, none are HOLIER than any other, ALL can help you become a better person or a worseone isn't being SELF-rightous. It is called in some circles UNIVERSALISM. The only difference between me and Universalist Unitarians is that I don't believe in a Diestic concept of God and accept that the non-religious path is just as good, as holy, as full of TRUTH as a religious one. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 27, 2009 3:29 PM:

" Dstew Sodom was a city, Jerusalem is a city, Egypt was real but the story of Exodus appears to be fabricated. The Bible is a complete mix of myth and metaphor, fact and fantasy. As I have pointed out the God of the Bible does NOT disaprove of Homosexuality,the humans that wrote the laws of Levititus admonished against it. The two passages in Corinthians and Timothy have been mistranslated and are not about loving consensual homosexual relationships they are about sexual abuse and subjugation. We as wiser, more compassionate, more enlightened humans KNOW that there is nothing wrong with a loving, consensual relationship between same sex adults. There is something wrong/sinful about folks like you that condemn homosexuals and homosexual acts. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 27, 2009 3:36 PM:

" Oh and DSTEW I have nothing to fear from your imaginary God. So your wish for revenge is thwarted. You however do believe in your God and are in direct violation of the scriptures that you pretend to believe in. You should be very, very worried. Your God doesn't like those that "bear false witness". Anyway you look at it there is NO way of getting around Matthew 25:31.... UNLESS of course the concept of GRACE is true in which it will be granted to you and to me and to everyone else. "

dstew66 wrote on Nov 27, 2009 8:42 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 27, 2009 3:29 PM:

"As I have pointed out the God of the Bible does NOT disaprove of Homosexuality,the humans that wrote the laws of Levititus admonished against it."

You have pointed out nothing but your arrogance and your ignorance. The human that wrote Leviticus was Moses. He recorded what the God of the Bible told him to record. He made it very clear how the God of the Bible feels about homosexuality:

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.

Since you are so intent on word definitions, here is the Hebrew definition of abomination for you:

H8441 properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence

I have no doubt that homosexuality is acceptable to your god. You do not believe in my God therefore I wouldn't expect you to understand or know my God. Although He is there to be known. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:38 AM:

" Dstew66 Leviticus was compiled from two separate sources one the P (Priestly code) composed between 550-400 BCE and incorporated into the Torah around 400 BCE. Not written by Moses eventhough that is what tradition proclaims. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:47 AM:

" Oh and DSTEW66 just to make it clear, Moses (if Moses ever really existed) was long gone by the time the Priestly Code was written. For example the Exodus (which scholars doubt actually occured) has been timed to around 1500-1200 BCE but archaeological surveys of ancient settlements in Sinai do not show a great influx of people. From Wikipedia a great source for quick facts but you do need to cross check them with other sources. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 29, 2009 7:44 AM:

" Dstew one other thing I understand you and your God quite well, you have created your God to fit your image, support your fears and hate of those that are different, you have picked the Biblical texts that support your ideas and demonstrate daily the kind of person you are and the kind of God your image of God is. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 30, 2009 11:50 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 27, 2009 7:18 AM:
" Mr. Hendren its not that you don't understand it is just that you refuse to admit that you understand. Your insistance on your interpretation of Christianity as being the only TRUTH, all other interpretations and religious beliefs are lies or false is SELF-Rightousness. My stating that ALL religious beliefs are just as TRUE as any other, none are HOLIER than any other, ALL can help you become a better person or a worseone isn't being SELF-rightous.

Aw, but it is. You are saying you can save yourself. That you do not need God, just be a good person. Which is true all religion teach being good to one another, but they also all teach that you must come to a god. I believe in the One True God, whether you like it or not. Which, as I and others have stated before, is your problem. You do not want anyone to believe in God, just your so called "enlightenment" religion. Oh, yes it is your religion.
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It is called in some circles UNIVERSALISM. The only difference between me and Universalist Unitarians is that I don't believe in a Diestic concept of God and accept that the non-religious path is just as good, as holy, as full of TRUTH as a religious one. "

Which is your option. You are allowed to believe how you want. It is not us the Christians that are saying you can not not believe in God. It is you and yours who are saying we can not believe in God. It is truly you who are being hypocritical. It is you who are telling us not to care about what happens to others after they die, where they will be for eternity. Just because you do not believe in Heaven or Hell. Well, here is a question for you. What if your wrong? See if we are wrong and their is no Heaven or Hell, so what! You lived a good life helping others, and then your in a hole in the ground. If you are wrong, then those that you turn from God, including yourself, might have been what you considered good on earth, but if you did not come to God, then you would spend an eternity in Hell. So again I ask, What if your wrong? I can afford to be wrong can you? Now of course you will say, "yes", that you can, because you are right. Problem is you have no way of knowing you are right or wrong until you die. You can not prove no God, anymore then I can prove 100% their is a God. It is all about faith. My faith their is, with the evidence I see in my own life, and your faith their is not. I must say it takes a lot more faith to believe his is not real, then to believe his is. That is what it all boils down to is faith. So you keep your religious faith that their is no God, and I will keep mine. Good luck, you better hope your not wrong. "

jrhendren wrote on Dec 1, 2009 12:14 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 28, 2009 7:38 AM:
" Dstew66 Leviticus was compiled from two separate sources one the P (Priestly code) composed between 550-400 BCE and incorporated into the Torah around 400 BCE. Not written by Moses eventhough that is what tradition proclaims. "

LOL!! Look Susan once again makes it look as if she researched, but yet she again just copied someone else and made it look as if it was her own:
"According to tradition, Moses authored Leviticus[1] as well as the other four books of the Torah [2]. However, modern biblical scholars believe Leviticus to be almost entirely from the priestly source (P), marked by emphasis on priestly concerns, composed c 550-400 BC, and incorporated into the Torah c 400 BC.[3]" - Wikipedia

Susan if you are not going to cite them and take credit for someones work, you coulsd have at least put some effort in to doing a better job of rewording it. You almost quoted them word for word. LOL!!! Is that what they teach to do in college now. Don' tdo the work yourself just copy from someone.

Now for your argument. The Scriptures, not to mention several writers of that time, such as Josephus, point out time and time again that Moses wrote the Law according to God and Leviticus is part of the Law. Their are two views to look at when looking at Leviticus. One Moses did write it and therefore argument over. Second, that it was written by someone else, since by other Scriptures, and other writers, we know Moses wrote the Law, that someone else copied the Law in this written form, from either a already written form of Moses', or by Moses telling them what to write. Similar to Paul's Epistles. They were "written" by Paul, except they were actually written by someone else, in most cases. Paul just told them what to write and sometimes signed them himself. Now if Moses did not write Leviticus, then he did not write the Law, and since we know he did write the Law, he wrote Leviticus also.

Susan do the research yourself you learn so much more that way. Don't just take the easy road and steal the ideas of others. "

jrhendren wrote on Dec 1, 2009 12:18 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 29, 2009 7:44 AM:
" Dstew one other thing I understand you and your God quite well, you have created your God to fit your image, support your fears and hate of those that are different, you have picked the Biblical texts that support your ideas and demonstrate daily the kind of person you are and the kind of God your image of God is. "

This from the woman who re-translated words to mean what they don't, does no cross referencing of Scriptures, uses only parts of Scriptures, and combines Scriptures from two different areas to make them say as she wishes. Once again Susan pot or kettle? Do you ever get tired of accusing others of what you do? Try to be more careful in your accusations, you are destroying what tiny credit you have. "

shoshanna wrote on Dec 2, 2009 11:13 AM:

" rev, your comments and what i see as compromising attitude is why many are leaving organized religion. to even hint that the sodomites are showing love and saying we need to learn from them makes my stomach sick. you need to stop and look at the real issue. its clear your comments reflect a disgruntled employee-you! everyone knows the organized church walked far away from the commandments of God to the point they say evil is good and good is evil. "

shoshanna wrote on Dec 2, 2009 11:19 AM:

" For anyone, especially anyone that calls themselves a pastor to express a confused comment concering children living with two men or two women as an act of love is ridiculus. there is nothing good about that arrangement. its an abomination to God according to scripture and always will be. you need to see the underlying problem here. sodomy is sweet talking even believers into thinking they are doing what is good and right. its a veil of evil that is infiltrating into all denominations and its defiling the sanctuary with its agenda. "