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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:48 PM CDT
COLUMN: 'Good without God' seems to turn nothing into a bit of something to brag about

By PENNY WEAVER, News Editor
pweaver@jg-tc.com

I’m pretty excited about what I’m sure will be a revolutionary new wave in advertising and marketing after Monday arrives.

God is to be thanked for this — so, rock on, Big Guy.

More accurately, the lack of God is at the root of this soon-to-be new movement. So, the real thanks go to ... no one.

If you don’t yet know what I’m babbling — uh, I mean, talking — about now, you didn’t see CNN’s story this week on a new ad campaign in the subway stations of New York.

CNN reports that a coalition of atheist groups hopes that its posters, placed starting Monday in a dozen Manhattan subway stops where millions of New Yorkers pass by, will raise awareness about people who don’t believe in a god.

Over an image of a blue sky with puffy white clouds, the ads will say, “A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?”

The Big Apple Coalition of Reason — I just love that name — wants to raise awareness about the city’s secular community, encourage discussion about religion and morality, and support activity in groups that foster social community for non-believing New Yorkers, CNN reported.

The atheist ads aren’t designed to be anti-religion, coalition leaders said.

They point out that the American Religious Identification Survey out earlier this year found that 15 percent of people in 2008 chose “none” as their religion, up from 8 percent in 1990. That means that “no religion” is the fastest-growing religious affiliation in the country, CNN reported.

Leaders in these atheist groups note that folks don’t have to have religion to be good people and contribute positively to society. Well, I certainly think that’s true.

But do you see where this is going? Remember this moment and where you were when you first read this.

Years ago, some businesses started mentioning their competitors in their commercials. That would be if McDonald’s mentioned Jack in the Box by name in pushing their message that McDonald’s is the best.

Some companies went to court to try to keep their rivals from using their names, but judges allowed it. Now, they’ll have an even bigger gun in their arsenal.

I can hear it now; McDonald’s ads will chortle: “2 million Americans are good without Whataburger food today. Are you?”

It’ll be an ad campaign that is so successful that it spills over into popular culture. You’ll start using in in everyday conversations before you know it.

“I’m good without Metamucil today. Are you?” you’ll ask your friends after church on Sunday — whoops, bad example.

You’ll hear your teenagers say to each other, “All my friends are good without math homework today. Can’t I be?”

Suddenly, we’ll be bragging about what we don’t need, rather than what we have. “Nothing” will be the new “something,” and, thankfully, everyone will be able to afford it.

The “Got Milk?” mantra will shift to “Don’t got milk!”, sending shudders through the very cores of English teachers across the nation. Politics will convert to the new non-needy society. “Most voters are good without Candidate X,” will go Candidate Y’s campaign slogan. “Are you?”

Still, there will be drawbacks to this we-don’t-need-no-stinking-god thing. When you hear that your first cousin’s neighbor’s uncle was almost run over by a hurtling pickup truck full of cheerleaders, what will you say? “Thank God” is out. “I’m good without a flat-as-a-pancake cousin’s neighbor’s uncle. Aren’t you?” you’ll have to opine to relatives.

What about all those couples every day in, um, amorous circumstances? They can’t say “Oh God!” in this society. I suppose “Oh!” will have to suffice, but it doesn’t really have the “oomph” of two syllables.

Don’t get me wrong — it’s no skin off my nose if people don’t believe in God. If someone’s an atheist or whatever, I don’t care; that’s their business. And I don’t think a person has to be religious to be good; that’s just silly. Whatever one’s beliefs, some things are universal: e.g., being nice to others.

I admit that I find it hard to imagine — this whole non-believing thing. God is real to me, and I certainly don’t know what I’d do without Him in my life. I surely do need Him, ’cause I need all the help I can get to be a better person.

But I can’t prove that God exists — certainly not scientifically. I believe that he does — firmly, absolutely. But that’s faith — that’s not science; it’s not “provable.” I guess it’s easy, in a way, to be an atheist. You don’t have anything to prove. What you see is what you get.

I can understand that. And I surely don’t think most people try to be good human beings ONLY because of God — the “threat” of retribution such as not going to Heaven, or the motivation of doing good things because it pleases God.

I like to think most of us do good, at least in part, simply because it’s good. We do what’s right because it’s right, don’t we? That’s not the only reason, but it’s a pretty good one.

So some of us believe in God and others think He’s a fantasy to keep religions going and control the masses. That’s OK. That’s why we live in America — it’s a free country. We have both freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

I certainly hope I’m good without God as the taskmaster over my shoulder. I couldn’t say I’m good without having God at all in my life, but I imagine some folks are.

What I’d really be good without are stupid people. And how about companies that keep making toilet paper rolls more narrow and still charge the same price, thinking consumers won’t notice? I’d be good without them.

I’m good without lima beans. I’m good without antacids, most of the time.

I’d say I’m good without chocolate, too, but I’m better with it.

How about you?

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jrhendren wrote on Oct 21, 2009 11:35 PM:

" "The atheist ads arent designed to be anti-religion, coalition leaders said." and people don't need oxygen to breath. Funny how it's okay to take God out, but put up a nativity scene and watch out. "

The Question wrote on Oct 22, 2009 8:39 AM:

" You're all atheists. You don't believe in Zeus or Odin, do you? The people you call "atheists" simply believe in one less god than you do. "

oblivious wrote on Oct 22, 2009 9:19 AM:

" This is actually a pretty good article. I don't have any problems with people believing in God. But I have been on both sides so I have believed before and now choose not to because of the knowledge I've gained over the years. Most believers were not once non believers and then chose to believe.

Most Atheists will tell you that they are good people because it's the right thing in a modern society to treat people with respect. We don't refrain from stealing or murdering because we're afraid of the consequences in the afterlife. We don't do these things because we're good people just like all of you and it's the right thing to do.

I had a friend the other day who is religious ask me to tell a little lie to her boyfriend for her. She said that I should be ok with it since I didn't believe in God. I was truly offended. It's like, just because I don't believe in your fairy tale God, I have no morals...no sense of right or wrong? "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 9:23 AM:

" So some of us believe in God and others think Hes a fantasy to keep religions going and control the masses. Thats OK. Thats why we live in America its a free country. We have both freedom of religion and freedom from religion.""""

that's exactly right. and most of us are fine with that until the bible thumpers and religious loonies get wound up....then they need to be slapped down. "

BW wrote on Oct 22, 2009 2:33 PM:

" TQ, that's just about the dumbest comment I've seen. Anywhere. Congratulations. "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 3:13 PM:

" BW wrote on Oct 22, 2009 2:33 PM:
" TQ, that's just about the dumbest comment I've seen. Anywhere. Congratulations. """""

it's ok BW....it's a little over your head, but most of us understand. get your crayons and a piece of paper, i'll make it easier. "

The Question wrote on Oct 22, 2009 3:27 PM:

" The idea that people only act morally because they are afraid of being punished by Big Daddy in the Sky is insulting, puerile thinking.
Real adults act ethically because they know it's the enlightened thing to do, not because they are cowering in fear like some misbehaving child who's only interested in himself. "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 5:16 PM:

" like any other organic matter, we live we die, we decompose....end of story, lights out. "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 5:28 PM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 22, 2009 3:27 PM:
" The idea that people only act morally because they are afraid of being punished by Big Daddy in the Sky is insulting, puerile thinking.
Real adults act ethically because they know it's the enlightened thing to do, not because they are cowering in fear like some misbehaving child who's only interested in himself. "

religion is based on fear TQ. "

Mama says wrote on Oct 22, 2009 6:57 PM:

" I wondered why making toilet paper narrower because I don't see behinds shinking.....lol. It is like the woman who wanted bigger breasts, her husband said wipe them with toiletpaper. Why, she asked. CAUSE IT DID WONDERS FOR YOUR BEHIND. He gets out of the hospital in two weeks. "

BW wrote on Oct 22, 2009 7:25 PM:

" fb, you do make it tough. "

just wondering wrote on Oct 22, 2009 10:16 PM:

" Question, you shouldn't speak of things you know nothing about. I am referring to the real adults comment. And father Bob everything seems to be over your head. I imagine it has something to do with the location of where your head is placed. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 23, 2009 12:19 AM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 22, 2009 8:39 AM:
" You're all atheists. You don't believe in Zeus or Odin, do you? The people you call "atheists" simply believe in one less god than you do. "

atheist
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Believing in any god no longer makes you and atheist. As the definition states atheist believe in no god, not just a lesser amount of gods. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 23, 2009 12:21 AM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 5:28 PM:
" The Question wrote on Oct 22, 2009 3:27 PM:
" The idea that people only act morally because they are afraid of being punished by Big Daddy in the Sky is insulting, puerile thinking.
Real adults act ethically because they know it's the enlightened thing to do, not because they are cowering in fear like some misbehaving child who's only interested in himself. "

religion is based on fear TQ. "

Wrong Christianity is about love, that is why you do not understand it. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 23, 2009 12:23 AM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 9:23 AM:
" So some of us believe in God and others think Hes a fantasy to keep religions going and control the masses. Thats OK. Thats why we live in America its a free country. We have both freedom of religion and freedom from religion.""""

that's exactly right. and most of us are fine with that until the bible thumpers and religious loonies get wound up....then they need to be slapped down. "

You proved my point about the article. Only those who do not believe are allowed to have an opinion. Thank you for once again proving what we all already knew about those who say, they have no problem with religion, then try to put it down. Keep up the work. "

Mama says wrote on Oct 23, 2009 7:30 AM:

" Hmmm, I like to say GOD MADE ME DO IT.
Instead of the DEVIL MADE ME DO IT.
It gives the devil a rest. All people have something need to believe in, and those believing it may be a good thing.
Makes em behave. I believe in the good/bad. Had two BAD husbands, and had two good ANGELS. A lot more peaceful being old and single and enjoy what is left of life way I WANT IT, without an ANGEL OR A DEVIL. hehe.
There are more devils than angels. "

HeinekenMan wrote on Oct 23, 2009 8:17 AM:

" Can someone explain the point of this article? I don't understand. If the writer wanted to express something about the advertising industry, why did she choose this particular ad? If I was her editor, I would have told her to start over. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 23, 2009 8:23 AM:

" " The idea that people only act morally because they are afraid of being punished by Big Daddy in the Sky is insulting, puerile thinking.
Real adults act ethically because they know it's the enlightened thing to do, not because they are cowering in fear like some misbehaving child who's only interested in himself. "
-----------------------------

OH I SEE...Real adults! Like how they act when they're being condescending and flippant because someone misspelled words on their posts...right ELLEN? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 23, 2009 8:29 AM:

" something to do with the location of where your head is placed.
-----------------------------

Be careful... just wondering....you know there's a 'protected few' on this blog that can say just about anything without ramifications....but you saying something like this and they'll put you on the 'naughty' list.

The select few can be overtly defamatory, racist (we all know which one of the select few that is), or insulting. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 23, 2009 8:31 AM:

" The people you call "atheists" simply believe in one less god than you do.
----------------

And that would be Obama, right, Ellen? "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2009 8:34 AM:

" A commom misperception of "Christians" is that without God and Jesus the Atheist, Jew, Hindu, Budddhist (anyone that doesn't believe exactly what they believe) has nothing, no hope, no purpose, no morals, no ethics. One minister in this area in a Friday column on the religious page a year or so ago said that those that believe in Evolution are a threat to the moral foundations of our society. These perceptions need to be changed and if a billboard gets the message across more power to it. For those interested in more information you mights look at a Canadian website "religioustolerance.org". There are lots of interesting articles from believers and non-believers and visitor essays, including three of mine! Very enlightening. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 23, 2009 8:35 AM:

" " like any other organic matter, we live we die, we decompose....end of story, lights out. "
--------------------

Yes, and how apropos for you...thank heaven! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 23, 2009 9:08 AM:

" Just look your contradiction in this article:
I dont think a person has to be religious to be good
I certainly dont know what Id do without Him

The motivation of doing good things because it pleases God
The only thing that pleases God is to accept the gift of His Son

Penny there is only one God, the God of the Bible
Anything else is a god, worthless and meaningless

So when you say you believe in God thats good and that means it is the Creator God of the Bible you believe in. It is good you believe but that does not make you good.

But if you believe the Bible than you have to believe all of it or you are wasting your time and your living soul.

Jesus said, Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God
No one is good except God.

Jesus said, You believe in God, believe also in Me. He followed this up with, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "

JR wrote on Oct 23, 2009 9:34 AM:

" So the atheists are now proselytizing their beliefs? That's interesting. "

sapient wrote on Oct 23, 2009 9:37 AM:

" My question is, Who determines what is "right"? We all must have an ultimate authority whether we want one or not. If we each are our own ultimate authority than whatever I do is right. Who can say that Hitler was wrong, or Chairman Mao (we know he was right because a whitehouse spokesperson said so). The only logical ultimate authority is the God of the Bible. "

sapient wrote on Oct 23, 2009 9:41 AM:

" Ps 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. KJV

This thread proves the bible true daily. "

The Question wrote on Oct 23, 2009 9:57 AM:

" Human nature, human experience and human intelligence determine what is right. It doesn't come naturally, and it doesn't come from a burning bush that talks. It comes from the hard-fought, millennia-long struggle for civilization and education that know-nothings just itch to throw away so they can comfort themselves by imposing their own superstitious ignorance on the world. "

mickeygarlock wrote on Oct 23, 2009 10:02 AM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 5:16 PM:

" like any other organic matter, we live we die, we decompose....end of story, lights out. "

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure? If not, is it worth the risk?

religion is based on fear TQ. "

Actually, it's based on love. "

father bob wrote on Oct 23, 2009 11:14 AM:

" mickeygarlock wrote on Oct 23, 2009 10:02 AM:
" father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2009 5:16 PM:

" like any other organic matter, we live we die, we decompose....end of story, lights out. "

Are you ABSOLUTELY sure? If not, is it worth the risk?"""""

what risk?....there is no risk. if you believe in what christianity has to say, i'm in, whether i "believe" or not. even those pesky homosexuals get a free ride. you guys never make any sense, you just talk in circles and spread fear. "

The Question wrote on Oct 23, 2009 11:36 AM:

" religion is based on fear TQ.
Actually, it's based on love.
---
Is it now. Tell that one to the victims of the crusades, the witch burnings and the Spanish Inquisition. "

father bob wrote on Oct 23, 2009 11:50 AM:

" sapient wrote on Oct 23, 2009 9:41 AM:
" Ps 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. KJV

This thread proves the bible true daily. """""

what does?...a book of stories written by a bunch of opium smoking old men? i'd just as soon believe the book of mormon. at least they have a funnier story....

Tenzin Gyatso probably has more reasonable answers, and speaks more to the truth about life. "

Native American wrote on Oct 23, 2009 12:23 PM:

" I am once again amazed to see so much interest in a God, who, according to some, does not exist. If God does not exist, then why all the fuss and the expense to say so? I would not waste my time or money on something or someone who did not exist.

At least one of many good things has come from all this fuss. At least the atheist are keeping God in the minds and thoughts of the people. Sad to say, better than some churches are doing.

Besides, if I go through life and want to believe in God and I get to the end and find out He was not real. What have I lost? But, if I go through life and do not believe, and get to the end and find out He was real! Hmmmmm? "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2009 1:48 PM:

" NativeAmerican why all the fuss about something that doesn't exist? Because of all the evil done in the name of that thing, that God, that doesn't exist. Your devils dilemma is rather old and trite, "if I believe and he does I am ahead, if I don't and he does I lose." Do you honestly think that God if there is a God can't see thru you? How blind and dumb do you think your God is? "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2009 1:53 PM:

" Sapient your question is worth thinking about, too bad you don't. Do you really think that a God that promotes the stoning to death of adulterers, is jealous and narcissistic, sanctions the slaughter of every man, woman, child and animal that occupies the land you covet, that thinks that playing with and making bets with the Devil is good fun, to name a few of his actions, is a moral authority on anything? "

The Question wrote on Oct 23, 2009 2:16 PM:

" Native, you are describing Pascal's wager, an old argument which is obviously false as well as intellectually disreputable.
As you long as you have decided to hedge and pretend to believe in things for which there is no evidence, why not believe in Allah or the Book of Mormon or the Lizard God Goanna for your "salvation?" How can you afford to ignore any irrational avenue to "paradise?" As William James observed, Pascal's wager justifies and in fact demands a faked "belief" in anything and everything that promises you an eternal afternoon, not just Christianity.
Pascal's Wager is a particularly brazen form of intellectual cowardice. It says, in effect, "I don't really believe, but I'll pretend to believe to see if I can snag God's goodies anyway on a technicality." "

father bob wrote on Oct 23, 2009 2:16 PM:

" Native American wrote on Oct 23, 2009 12:23 PM:
"Besides, if I go through life and want to believe in God and I get to the end and find out He was not real. What have I lost? But, if I go through life and do not believe, and get to the end and find out He was real! Hmmmmm? """"""

like is said, if he exists, you're in! why waste a lifetime worrying about something that's a farce? why worry about muslims, jews, buddhists or other religions?

if you're afraid of your soul going to he11 then you're not a true believer anyway.....so why bother with it? "

sapient wrote on Oct 23, 2009 2:28 PM:

" TQ: What is human nature? Can you see it. Since you can't believe in a god you can't see, I can't believe in a non-material concept that I can't see.
Since we and our thoughts are just the result of random chance chemical reactions, according to your line of reasoning, no one can be responsible for anything. "

just wondering wrote on Oct 23, 2009 3:11 PM:

" Neo, thank you very much for your concern, but the day I start worrying about what those hypocrites think thats the time to worry. I know you can't see this but my hands are shaking as I post this. Some of our self righteous, self appointed intellectuals remind me of a quote I once heard. It says those of you who think you know it all are very annoying to those of us who do.
And specificly that overt racist that you speak of. I found it interesting during the campaigns when Jesse Jackson said he would like to cut off some off Mr. Obama's anatomy, this certain person was quiet. No outrage or anger that someone should speak this way of his beloved candidate. If a white person would have made the same comment our resident racist would have wanted him strung up on the spot. Can you say hypocrite, boys and girls. I know that you can. "

Danny Boy wrote on Oct 23, 2009 3:36 PM:

" In the past 1000 years religion has killed more people than any Nuclear War could ever do.

It is up to you folks to make the decision for yourselves.

Whether you believe in a higher power, or if you believe, that when we die we just cease to exist, well that's the question isn't it?.....Whatever gets you to the end of the day.....

I think everyone should believe in something.

I believe I will have another beer. "

Becky wrote on Oct 23, 2009 3:47 PM:

" I can't figure out for the life of me why someone is paying money for billboards to sell.....NOTHING???? I just don't get it. "

father bob wrote on Oct 23, 2009 4:28 PM:

" just wondering wrote on Oct 23, 2009 3:11 PM:
"If a white person would have made the same comment our resident racist would have wanted him strung up on the spot.""""

hey i agree with that JrWonder.....those stinking hypocrites! "

father bob wrote on Oct 23, 2009 4:55 PM:

" Danny Boy wrote on Oct 23, 2009 3:36 PM:
"I think everyone should believe in something.

I believe I will have another beer. """"

i'm with ya man.. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 23, 2009 5:49 PM:

" Be careful... just wondering....you know there's a 'protected few' on this blog that can say just about anything without ramifications....but you saying something like this and they'll put you on the 'naughty' list.

The select few can be overtly defamatory, racist (we all know which one of the select few that is), or insulting. "

Good grief, Neo. And yet you whine about not getting your posts printed in the paper. You really don't have a clue, do you? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 23, 2009 6:11 PM:

" but the day I start worrying about what those hypocrites think thats...
-------------------------------

Oh... but just wondering...it is time to start worrying.

Lunacy is starting to win out over rational thought. Descartes many years ago recognized this and it's funny, at least to me, that the pseudo-intellectuals then, just like the leftist pseudo-intellectuals now, perpetuate the lunacy.

As Ellen writes, 'Human nature, human experience and human intelligence determine what is right.'

As I have argued many times before human intelligence is often wrong.

Remember Galileo saying the earth revolved around sun and everyone said he was a loony tune? Turns out without any reasonable doubt that Galileo was correct.

And the Galileo things is what the loony lefties are doing now.

Just because they all have the same thoughts on something that makes it 'correct' for them.

They'll take one sliver of 'fact' and base all their decisions for an entire system (like health care) based upon that one fact even though these past experience and indications that say else wise.

And then to make their 'un-truth' a truth, they say the 'un-truth' over and over again until everybody relents...and then the untruth becomes the 'truth'.

They're dangerous...and they are ruining America.

Are you okay with that, then? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 23, 2009 6:37 PM:

" Danny Boy, Mao, Hitler, and Stalin have killed more than 300 million people and they were atheists. Christianity has saved millions of people, even some of those the above despots wanted to kill. Many of those killed by the atheists were Christians. "

Mama says wrote on Oct 23, 2009 8:32 PM:

" Penny has you all talking and at least showing a lot of opinions. A cousin died during surgery and brought back.
He saw HELL and talked about it that he is believing now in God and doesn't want to perish. I died twice during surgery but saw Heaven. AND I wanna go there. I was met by parents, animals and at the head of the pack was our dog JIP and Dad and his dog Shep to greet me. DANNY you will get wine there.
I guess one has to experience these other things to decide what will believe. We as individuals have to decide. We have been given the choice. "

The Shadow wrote on Oct 23, 2009 9:21 PM:

" If the right wingers are not careful, they're going to give themselves a neoplasm. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 24, 2009 12:21 AM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 23, 2009 11:36 AM:
" religion is based on fear TQ.
Actually, it's based on love.
---
Is it now. Tell that one to the victims of the crusades, the witch burnings and the Spanish Inquisition. "

Once again you go to the extreme and bunch all who call themselves "Christian" together. Read the Scriptures some time and you will see that Christianity is about love.
"For God so loved the world..." - John 3:16 "

The Question wrote on Oct 24, 2009 6:07 AM:

" Too bad you Bible thumpers don't bother to read history. Hitler wasnt an atheist. He was a Roman Catholic, a former altar boy who baptized into the church as an infant in Austria.
He also greatly admired Martin Luther, who openly hated the Jews.
Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." According to Albert Speer, Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his suicide.
In 1941, he told General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
So you Bible boys can have your Hitler. We freethinkers dont want him. Hes one of yours. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2009 8:17 AM:

" Sapient you really need to pay attention to your own arguments. Ever heard of gravity, can you see it or touch it, do you BELIEVE in it or do you KNOW it is real? Responsibility doesn't come from force or coercion or threats, responsibility comes from within a person, it is a personal choice, a personal committment. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2009 8:21 AM:

" Becky why would people pay for billboards to sell a God that doesn't exist? Christian groups do put up billboards to promote their church, their religion and their God. I'll answer your question they think they are selling HOPE which is exactly what the Atheist group is selling. HOPE in a better day free of fear and superstition and hate for the "other". "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2009 8:29 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta Hitler was Catholic. So you do need to remove him from your list. DannyBoy was careful to use the word religion which includes ALL religions not just the Christian religion. Since it is often impossible to separate ethnic groups from their religion it is impossible to declare that the last few wars haven't also been religious wars. Now who was it that wrote that quote that give one of our posters such a hissy fit, "good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things but it takes religion to get good people to do bad things. "

HeinekenMan wrote on Oct 24, 2009 4:31 PM:

" Some folks who question the need for the ads fail to realize how some people treat atheists. For two straight days, people have come to my door to convert me to their religion. How would they feel if I went to their door to tell them there is no god?

At my son's baseball games, all of the kids must repeat the Little League pledge, which begins with the words "I trust in god." Since I am the coach, I have to say it, too. I tried not to say it one day, and one player's father gave me a weird look. I told him later that I was atheist, and he acted like I told him I was a child murderer. So I just say it for fear that some people will judge me or treat me differently.

I attend city government meetings every week, and people give me dirty looks because I refuse to say "under god" when I say the Pledge of Allegiance. I've had people turn around and stare at me because they hear my pause.

I was talking to a few men one day a few years ago, and they asked me a question. When I told them I was atheist, they looked at me with the same expression.

I no longer tell people I'm atheist. Nobody seems to understand, and nobody seems to accept it. In most cases, I am judged for it.

That is why people are buying ad space. You'll find that there are more atheists in this world than most might realize.

But many of them never speak of their disbelief in organized religion or in the concept of Jesus. "

just wondering wrote on Oct 24, 2009 7:00 PM:

" Like I said Neo I don't worry because the type we have here talk just to hear their head rattle and try to convince every one they actually have a clue. I think we will see a big "change" in the next two elections. Any one with any sense has seen what has been done in a short time. Just have to make sure the people with common sense get out and vote. I know some people are already regretting their vote from last year. Many have said their vote will be different this time. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Oct 24, 2009 9:20 PM:

" TQ, I find it hard to take anyone seriously when they omit helping verbs and apostrophes. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! "

Cognitus wrote on Oct 24, 2009 9:40 PM:

" father bob:
" BW wrote on Oct 22, 2009 2:33 PM:
" TQ, that's just about the dumbest comment I've seen. Anywhere. Congratulations. """""

it's ok BW....it's a little over your head, but most of us understand. get your crayons and a piece of paper, i'll make it easier. "
==================================================
BEAUTIFUL, father bob. And I'll bet
BW (Born Without brains) still doesn't
understand it..... "

Cognitus wrote on Oct 24, 2009 9:46 PM:

" jrhendron:"Believing in any god no longer makes you and atheist. As the definition states atheist believe in no god, not just a lesser amount of gods. "

Sorry JR; I thought only BW was incapable of understanding TQ's comment. "

Cognitus wrote on Oct 24, 2009 9:59 PM:

" Mama:"A cousin died during surgery and brought back.
He saw HELL and talked about it that he is believing now in God and doesn't want to perish. I died twice during surgery but saw Heaven. AND I wanna go there."

Both are simply chemical illusions brought to the brain by lack of oxygen.
Each of you will see the same things at death ... for just a few seconds. "

cman wrote on Oct 24, 2009 11:08 PM:

" WWOOOOWWWWW...All I can say for all you non-believers of Jesus Christ is I am praying for you.

I am not talking about Buddha, Zeus, or any other god, but the true Living God, Jesus Christ, who died on a cross and rose again 3 days later for all of our sins. That is right, he did give you free will. The bible says it would be better for a man to die without hearing the Gospel than to die with hearing it and rejecting it. In the end every (EVERY) knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I just hope you all come to your senses before it is too late. "

Mama says wrote on Oct 25, 2009 12:04 AM:

" I wish JG-TC would have comments on topic of people with near death experiences. I know a lot express them and interesting. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 25, 2009 10:11 AM:

" " Too bad you Bible thumpers don't bother to read history.
----------------------

It's too bad you godless folks don't understand that there's a common denominator to all of the countless wars, jihads, and crusades that have occurred throughout the ages, regardless of religious affiliation.

The common denominator is the evil that's inherent in the hearts of men.

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they, in essence, told God that they didn't necessarily want to play by his rules and that he wasn't the "center of their universe" anymore. They decided to go against what he'd planned for them, a world in perfect harmony in which it was God's decision concerning everything that happened.

And did you ever stop to think that possibly God might have wanted all of the countless wars, jihads, and crusades to happen, to put the world back into balance, to diminish some of the evil in the world because of the overabundant evil in the hearts of men?

Nah...I know it never dawned on you..cause as a humanist the "center of the universe" revolves around you and how you want the world to be. It's why you're so idealist.

And here's a question for you:

You know where you can find the highest concentration of sinners on any given Sunday?

Answer:

In church...trying to help themselves remember that the "center of the universe" doesn't revolve around them. "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:20 AM:

" Cognitus wrote, "Both are simply chemical illusions brought to the brain by lack of oxygen.
Each of you will see the same things at death ... for just a few seconds."

You speak with a lot of certainty, but since there is no proof one way or the other, it becomes a matter of faith--whatever you believe.

Perhaps NDEs are illusions brought on by chemical changes in the oxygen-deprived brain. If so, why are the "illusions" so commonly centered around seeing past deeds, encountering the light, reuniting with loved ones, hearing celestial music, etc., etc. The "illusions" could just as easily be
of something else, since people who didn't know they were dying (and who wouldn't have been thinking of NDE topics) experienced them--why NDEs rather than, say, favorite memories, or even bad memories, or even brilliant hallucinations of what they were thinking of at the time of "death"?

Are you saying that the particular alteration in brain chemistry that occurs when circulation stops is one that would trigger near-death experiences, but no other vivid visual/auditory experience? "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:24 AM:

" And did you ever stop to think that possibly God might have wanted all of the countless wars, jihads, and crusades to happen, to put the world back into balance, to diminish some of the evil in the world because of the overabundant evil in the hearts of men?"

Personally, I don't believe that at all. God allowing these things certainly doesn't mean that He wanted them to happen. Balance comes when people choose to live in love and peace. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 25, 2009 1:39 PM:

" The Q, said,"Tell that one to the victims of the crusades, the witch burnings and the Spanish Inquisition".

Why don't you tell us Q, just how many were killed in the crusades, the witch burnings and the Spanish Inquisition? Let's compare that to the numbers that atheists have killed. And then all that proves is the depravity of man and why we all need the saving grace of our loving God purchased for us by Jesus Christ and received through placing our faith in Him.
What a loving God who can forgive even from those atrocities. Amazing Grace!

1 John 1:9 (NKJV)
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 25, 2009 1:46 PM:

" Hitler was born Catholic, Stalin was born into the Russian Orthodox Church, Mao was raised as a Buddhist and these facts prove nothing. Hitler negated his Mein Kampf when he openly admitted that his public statements were propaganda. He claimed Catholicism to try to sway the masses.

You eggheads are an offense to the Catholic Church and to yourselves. For most people who claim to be atheists it is not so much that they do not believe there is God but that they hate God and are in rebellion against Him. Hitler never acknowledged God he only acknowledged by lie that he was Catholic there is a big difference. Hitler acknowledged by actions his rejection of God as Creator and rejected Gods sovereignty. Hitler was an evolutionist and by this he demonstrated his rebellion against God. Many within the Catholic Church were not Christian just as many are not today even among Protestants. By this definition of an atheist Humphreys, Harry Potter, father bob and some other posters here are the same as Hitler. And indeed you are just as guilty before the eyes of God as Hitler.

Hitler was an atheist and now he is a dead atheist that will rise again to face judgment from the God he rebelled against, and all those that rebel against God will face the same judgment as Hitler and Stalin and Mao. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 25, 2009 2:18 PM:

" Both are simply chemical illusions brought to the brain by lack of oxygen.
Each of you will see the same things at death ... for just a few seconds. "
-------------------

That's rich...now we have a musician enlightening us to chemical interactions occurring death.

I guess that gives me the right to say that music is nothing more than the movement of molecules in the air. Causing this movement of molecules does little more than to elicit frivoulous emotional responses from the listener via the hair-like receptors in the ear. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 25, 2009 2:55 PM:

" Heinickenman next time someone gives you a funny look act as though you are going to touch them, then say don't worry atheism is spread by contact but it isn't fatal. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 25, 2009 2:58 PM:

" Cman we hope that you come to your senses before it is too late. What a waste of a life to spend it in fear of a nonexistant thing. Enlightenment can free you from that fear and help you find your way, you have obviously taken a wrong turn and ended up on a dead end siding. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:00 PM:

" The Center of the Universe doesn't revolve around God either unless God is a BlackHole. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:03 PM:

" Now how can NeoCon say that atheists think that the world revolves around them when it is the atheists and non-theists on this site that think that the needs of others deserve just as much consideration as their own and are willing to pay a bit more to see that they are met. It is the Christians on these pages that refuse to consider the needs of others as equal to their own. "

BW wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:22 PM:

" Congratulations, Cognitus, you made the team. "

The Question wrote on Oct 25, 2009 4:25 PM:

" You can always count on religious people to try to duck the rap and start talking about "real Christians" once their fellow Jesus lovers open up the floodgates of blood by slaughtering the ungodly, as they have done from the Crusades through the Inquisition to now.
Then they have the unmitigated gall to tell you that their religion promotes "love." What they love is to fool themselves. "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 25, 2009 6:17 PM:

" Back to Near Death Experiences being caused by oxygen deprivation--one would think that people would hallucinate about whatever they were thinking at the time of "death." If people have time to think at all, they are generally thinking about the loved ones they're leaving behind, rather than those things that make up NDEs. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 25, 2009 8:22 PM:

" when it is the atheists and non-theists on this site that think that the needs of others deserve just as much consideration as their own and are willing to pay a bit more to see that they are met.
------------------------------

And how NARCISSISTIC of you atheists and non-theists to think that YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR OTHERS AND KNOW WHAT OTHERS DESERVE.

And how NARCISSISTIC of you atheists and non-theists to want others to pay for things that are against a theists conscious, like abortion or forced health care insurance...things that aren't necessarily helpful or productive regarding the general public... "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 25, 2009 8:29 PM:

Cognitus wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:12 PM:

" NeoCon"" Its pathetic how you atheists and non-theists want to impose your arbitrary beliefs on theists, yet when theists seek to instill principles into society based upon their beliefs, you atheists and non-theists cry righteous indignation and claim discrimination against your arbitrary beliefs. "
=========================================
I don't know any group of atheists who are sending "missionaries" to "darkest
Africa" to "preach" atheism. I say let the Africans continue in their innocence of the conflict among religionists.
It's only the religionists who are trying to terrify people into religion, who demand that the government support religion, who sometimes themselves contribute $ to spread our religious
myths around the world..... "

cman wrote on Oct 25, 2009 11:12 PM:

" " Cman we hope that you come to your senses before it is too late. What a waste of a life to spend it in fear of a nonexistant thing. Enlightenment can free you from that fear and help you find your way, you have obviously taken a wrong turn and ended up on a dead end siding. "

________________________________________

shumphreys: First of all let me tell you one thing...I am not living a life of fear. Quite contrary to what you believe I have the most loving joyful life since becoming part of the body of Christ. I absolutely love Jesus Christ with ALL my heart and SOUL. I find much more joy living a life for Him. I have no fear. I absolutely know for certain where I am going when I die. What is there to fear in that???? If you want enlightened try being filled with the Holy Spirit once. I guarantee you will feel enlightened. As far as Fear again...I am not afraid that God is going to strike me down with a lighting bolt. He died for our sins so we can repent and never perish. If I happen to mess up (which I have and do) I know without a doubt that he is a forgiving God. That is what is great about it. Not having to live a life of fear. God will show his judgement one day and I am not worried about that. I know I am doing the best I can for Him. I am trying to tell people about him as that was his final words. That is the great commission. To go and preach his name to the rest of the world so they might be saved. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 26, 2009 7:43 AM:

" CrowWoman I think the NearDeath Experiences are also dependant upon the way you were brought up, indoctrination (and I don't mean that in a bad way). Folks are preprogrammed and their subconscious automatically complys. My dreams are affected by the movies I watch, the books I read, my day to day experiences. Just because we sleep or are in the sleep of anesthesia or a near death experience are brain is still firing, emitting electrical impulses. The heart may stop but as long as the brain hasn't died it keeps on firing. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 26, 2009 7:50 AM:

" Its pathetic how you Theists want to impose your arbitrary beliefs on atheists and non-theists, yet when the atheist or non-theist seek to install principles into society based on universal ideals, you theists cry righteous indignation and claim discrimination against your arbitrary beliefs. "

The Question wrote on Oct 26, 2009 8:40 AM:

" The assumption that religion is the basis of morality is a strenuously spread bit of theological propaganda. It is spread so strenuously because people are always in danger of realizing that it isn't true.
Fundamentalist Christians dont obey God because they think he is good. They tremble before him because they think he is omnipotent. They do not call themselves "God-inspired" Christians, do they? They call themselves "God-fearing" Christians.
No moral philosophy at work there. You wouldnt call the cowering subjects of a tyrant "moral," would you?
In the Book of Joshua, to take one example, God orders the Hebrews to slaughter every man, woman and child in the land of Canaan. What a moral inspiration that God is, eh?
Far from having any exclusive claim to morality, Judeo-Christian religion often has nothing to do with morality or even works against it, as during the Spanish Inquisition.
Humans have values not because their values are divine, but only because of their natures as thinking mortal beings beings who live or die, together with their fellows, based on the rationality or irrationality of their choices. That is the basis of human morality, and it arises not from any ancient book of myths but from empathy, from the childs recognition that other people can be hurt the way he can be hurt.
From that beginning, weve filled whole libraries with thoughtful, philosophical explorations of how humans should live. "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 26, 2009 9:59 AM:

" TQ wrote, "You can always count on religious people to try to duck the rap and start talking about "real Christians" once their fellow Jesus lovers open up the floodgates of blood by slaughtering the ungodly, as they have done from the Crusades through the Inquisition to now.
Then they have the unmitigated gall to tell you that their religion promotes "love." What they love is to fool themselves."

Christ's teachings, properly understood, do promote love. However, people who embrace Christianity are often looking at Christ through their own grids of...whatever.

People who tend to be gentle and loving will more easily understand and practice what Jesus taught. People who tend towards fear/hatred will latch onto Old Testament Scriptures about God's people destroying their enemies, and they will ignore those that show how God reached out to Israel's enemies and blessed them. Those who want to hate will find Scripture to back them up, whether in the OT or NT.

Also, most people cannot separate biblical teaching from the prevailing beliefs of their society and era. During the times of the Inquisitions and Crusades, that's what people did, no matter what their beliefs. If someone didn't believe the way you did, either convert her or kill her.

During our own history when slavery was practiced, most Christians went along and promoted slavery. It was easy for them to believe in an inferior race, because they wanted to. Were all of these people "true" Christians? They were not following the teachings of Christ. However, as Christianity was normally practiced during their time, they were the "true" Christians of the day.

By God's standard, were they "true" Christians? I guess He's the one to decide.

There are inconsistencies and mysteries, however. First, people who follow Christ when doing so causes them to break the conventions of their social group, even their Christian group. Then, there are those people who were once haters who become transformed into loving people once they decide to follow Christ. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:02 AM:

" Its pathetic how you atheists and non-theists want to impose your arbitrary beliefs on theists, yet when theists seek to instill principles into society based upon their beliefs, you atheists and non-theists cry righteous indignation and claim discrimination against your arbitrary beliefs. "

As ususal, you get it backward, Neo. It's not the non-belivers who are trying to push their beliefs on society. That would be people like you and Jon Vanatta. "

nurse98 wrote on Oct 26, 2009 1:51 PM:

" Why is it so important for those of you with no god to promote it why if you have no god do you care if I do? Someday soon you are going to wish you had GOD and I am so sorry that you don't. I believe its more important to have something than nothing. "

nurse98 wrote on Oct 26, 2009 1:56 PM:

" Oh Oblivious, I respect you for your view and because I have been taught not to judge you I won't but please do not offened us by calling our God a fairy tale. Many of my family have lived and died in the belief of God and to disrespect those beliefs is not being a "good person" "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 26, 2009 3:06 PM:

" Nurse98 you aren't going to judge? Than why do you say those who don't believe what you believe have nothing? AND why do you say "someday soon you are going to wish that you had...."? That is also judging. People like me speak up to dispell the misguided and misinformation of folks like you. Being FREE of fear and superstition is everything! "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 26, 2009 3:23 PM:

" Cman why do you take offense at my statement, "I hope you come to your senses" when I just repeated what you said to all of "us", those atheists? Why do you take offense at my statements but don't think I or the others should be offended by your statements? You say your God is the True Living God. And I say he isn't, he is nothing but a fantasy and then you take offense at that statement. You say in the end every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. AND I say why on earth would I or anyone else who has found freedom from fear and hate go backward when we have advancerd beyond mere religion to a higher level of spirituatlity? Do you take offense because I think that I have reached a higher level of spirituality than you? But isn't that exactly what you claim, that you are higher/better/more spiritual than me? You are free to follow your path just as we are free to follow ours. No single path is any better than any other, each has to follow the path that is right for her or him. "

father bob wrote on Oct 26, 2009 4:05 PM:

" nurse98 wrote on Oct 26, 2009 1:56 PM:
" Oh Oblivious, I respect you for your view and because I have been taught not to judge you I won't but please do not offened us by calling our God a fairy tale. Many of my family have lived and died in the belief of God and to disrespect those beliefs is not being a "good person" """""

conversely, don't insult us by forcing christianity down our throats...that's not being a "good preson". "

father bob wrote on Oct 26, 2009 5:00 PM:

" nurse98 wrote on Oct 26, 2009 1:51 PM:
" Why is it so important for those of you with no god to promote it why if you have no god do you care if I do? Someday soon you are going to wish you had GOD and I am so sorry that you don't. I believe its more important to have something than nothing. """""

you will NEVER find a thread on here where a "non-believer" starts an argument about a god vs no god.

we usually react to someone forcefeeding that load of bunk, or to some BS comment about our "christian" nation. "

JR wrote on Oct 26, 2009 6:09 PM:

" Actually Question, Hitler was very anti-Christian; one of the cornerstones of his ideology was to eventually do away with Christianity as he saw it as an offshoot of Jewish culture and thus "unmanning" the Aryan races. However, he was also pragmatic enough to realize that at the time the churches (both Catholic and Protestant) were too firmly ensconced in Germany to get rid of them right away. He did endeavor to make inroads into weakening the churches' traditional influence over the German people however.
He espoused getting rid of the "enemies" of the state by dividing them into groups and taking them out one by one, and thus encouraged his followers to stay within the traditional churches for the time being -- so as not to arouse suspicion.
This is historically well documented. "

unknownjoe wrote on Oct 26, 2009 7:12 PM:

" Susan, have you sold that land yet, or laid plans for that garden to feed the hungry? I know your higher form of spirituality keeps you busy and all, but I figured I would at least get a reply to my challenge. Maybe it's because you are busy living fear free life? or, maybe you are on such a higher spiritual plane that a mere mortal doesn't rate an answer. As for all the Christians who come here to debate. If you truly go by the words of Christ, why do you go casting your pearls before swine? All they do is turn and rend you. Shake the dust off your feet from this city who has not received you and move on. There are plenty of other people out there that you can spend your time helping instead of sitting in here in debate. God is big, been around the block a few times and doesn't need people running around to defend his existence. "

cman wrote on Oct 26, 2009 8:18 PM:

" shumphreys,

I am not arguing with you. I was simply responding to your claim that I live in fear. I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I cannot make anyone believe what they don't believe in their heart. So please don't accuse me of forcing my religion on you. I stated exactly how I felt. I am not going to argue anymore. It looks to me (as I scroll up and down the page of comments) that you shumphreys like to comment on EVERYTHING you see just for the sake of argument. I will say in closing that I do know I did what I could to plant a seed. That is all that is required. No forcing, no nothing. I know you believe in your "enlightenment" or whatever to make you feel good. I am glad for you. I hope if you change your mind someday that I will see you in church. "

father bob wrote on Oct 26, 2009 8:49 PM:

" JR wrote on Oct 26, 2009 6:09 PM:

" Actually Question, Hitler was very anti-Christian; one of the cornerstones of his ideology was to eventually do away with Christianity as he saw it as an offshoot of Jewish culture and thus "unmanning" the Aryan races.""""

wrong once again...read a bit more "

father bob wrote on Oct 26, 2009 8:51 PM:

" jr...can you bring us up to date on the Army of God and their activities?? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 26, 2009 10:34 PM:

" Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged.

-Ronald Reagan "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:45 PM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 24, 2009 6:07 AM:
" Too bad you Bible thumpers don't bother to read history. Hitler wasnt an atheist. He was a Roman Catholic, a former altar boy who baptized into the church as an infant in Austria.
He also greatly admired Martin Luther, who openly hated the Jews.
Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." According to Albert Speer, Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic Church until his suicide.
In 1941, he told General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
So you Bible boys can have your Hitler. We freethinkers dont want him. Hes one of yours. "

You proved my point about lumping Christians together. The Catholic Church does not speak for the Christian Church. I hate to break the news to everyone. Their are many differences in the Catholic Church and the Christian Church. One instance is that the Catholic church doesn't believe you can pray to God directly, where the Christian church does. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:47 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2009 8:17 AM:
" Sapient you really need to pay attention to your own arguments. Ever heard of gravity, can you see it or touch it, do you BELIEVE in it or do you KNOW it is real? Responsibility doesn't come from force or coercion or threats, responsibility comes from within a person, it is a personal choice, a personal committment. "

Drop anything and you can see gravity at work! "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:51 PM:

" Cognitus wrote on Oct 24, 2009 9:46 PM:
" jrhendron:"Believing in any god no longer makes you and atheist. As the definition states atheist believe in no god, not just a lesser amount of gods. "

Sorry JR; I thought only BW was incapable of understanding TQ's comment. "

I understood the comment quite well. Maybe you have the problem since you got my name wrong. He said, "You're all atheists. You don't believe in Zeus or Odin, do you?". That is not the definition of an atheist. You can then get into the Theological aspect of Atheism being a religion. That however, is not where the comment was going. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:54 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 25, 2009 3:00 PM:
" The Center of the Universe doesn't revolve around God either unless God is a BlackHole. "

Susan knows all just ask her she'll tell you. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 12:00 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:02 AM:
" Its pathetic how you atheists and non-theists want to impose your arbitrary beliefs on theists, yet when theists seek to instill principles into society based upon their beliefs, you atheists and non-theists cry righteous indignation and claim discrimination against your arbitrary beliefs. "

As ususal, you get it backward, Neo. It's not the non-belivers who are trying to push their beliefs on society. That would be people like you and Jon Vanatta. "

Ummm...Harry it is the Atheist the story speaks of wanting to push their beliefs. It is the Atheist that are always trying to take Christ out of Christmas like the evil threatening manger scene. If you read the news you will see, kids getting in trouble for bringing a bible to school, for praying silently before their lunch, for wearing a christian t-shirt, and other such things. You don't see that happening to the atheist who wears an anti-christian shirt. It happens all the time Harry. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 12:04 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 26, 2009 3:23 PM:
" Cman why do you take offense at my statement, "I hope you come to your senses" when I just repeated what you said to all of "us", those atheists? Why do you take offense at my statements but don't think I or the others should be offended by your statements? You say your God is the True Living God. And I say he isn't, he is nothing but a fantasy and then you take offense at that statement. You say in the end every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. AND I say why on earth would I or anyone else who has found freedom from fear and hate go backward when we have advancerd beyond mere religion to a higher level of spirituatlity? Do you take offense because I think that I have reached a higher level of spirituality than you? But isn't that exactly what you claim, that you are higher/better/more spiritual than me? You are free to follow your path just as we are free to follow ours. No single path is any better than any other, each has to follow the path that is right for her or him. "

Once again you twist what you do not know. Christianity is not about fear, hate, or spirituality. It is about love. Love beyond any understanding. Agape, in the Greek. When you understand that you will understand Christianity. As for taking offense. You are darn right I do. I will ALWAYS be offended when someone puts down my Lord, and Savior. "

Cognitus wrote on Oct 27, 2009 1:10 AM:

" NeoCon"" Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged.
-Ronald Reagan "

Just shows that a man will say anything to please the political public. Note that RR almost never attended a church.'
After the phrase "rule of law" is acknowledge, it is quite unnecessary to add "under God". And WHAT does it add to the meaning of the phrase anyway.
No more than that the reule of law will be acknowledged in a courtroom.....

But what interests me is the considerable number who think its criminal to destray a fragment of protoplasm MAY develop into a person -- but who, I venture to say, favor the death penalty for certain real live cognizant people who have been convicted of a crime. Even tho in Ohio a few weeks ago nurses ignored the "cruel and and unusual punishment" edict of the Constituion. and fought for 2 hours to get the needles into a condemned man but failed, even with his cooperation, and sometimes even jabbing the needle into the bone.
THAT is -- or should be -- against the law. I believe anyone suffering such outrageous punishment in prospect of death should receive a commuted sentence. "

The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2009 7:16 AM:

" I'm glad you reminded me, FB. Here are a few of the Christian terrorist groups in operation out there:
Aryan Nations;
Army of God;
Christian Patriots;
Ku Klux Klan;
Lambs of Christ;
National Liberation Front of Tripura;
Nagaland Rebels;
Guardians of the Cedars;
Phalangist Militia;
Russian National Unity;
Russian National Socialists;
Tsar Lazar Guard;
White Eagles;
God's Army, Burma;
Sons of Freedom, Canada;
The Lord's Resistance Army, Uganda;
Iron Guard;
Provisional Irish Republican Army;
Official IRA;
Irish National Liberation Army (also known as the Catholic Reaction Force);
Irish People's Liberation Organisation;
Continuity IRA;
Real IRA;
Ulster Volunteer Force;
Ulster Defence Association;
Loyalist Volunteer Force;
Red Hand Commandos;
Ulster Resistance.
Practicing terrorism and "universal love." Quite a combination, eh? "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 7:59 AM:

" Cman I was not arguing with you. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements and challenging you to expand your narrow mind. AND that is why I write on these pages. I didn't accuse you of forcing anything on anyone nor am I forcing something on you. Did you miss my last sentence where I said each of us has to follow the path that is right for him or her? I hope that you find your way out of your church into the light and a brighter future. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:06 AM:

" So Unknown Joe you want me to leave town because you can't stomach ideas different from your own? Or because you don't like being confronted by TRUTH and your own hypocrisy? How BIG of you. I am not a Christian,as I said many times ago when I was 20 I read Siddhartha and realized that Christians didn't have the corner on TRUTH. I am not a Communist that believes in NO rights to own personal property and the complete dispersion of wealth between (those that are on top, party leaders having the most and the rest on the bottom having to share everything). Hey that is almost what our system is. But I digress. I do believe that if we don't start to look out for the needs of ALL we will ALL be in trouble. It only took two angry, disenfranchised, religious fanatics, to set off the latest bombs in Iraq. We know what a few angry, disenfranchised young men, without any hope for a brighter future did in American cities in the 60s. We can either learn from the past and make wiser choices in the future or go back down those roads again and again and again and again...... "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:13 AM:

" I expect you to take offense Mr. Hendren just as you should expect folks to take offense when you "put down" their God, their Religion, their Belief. You expect people to show respect to YOUR beliefs but you don't show respect for theirs? That isn't loving Christianity Mr. Hendren. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:19 AM:

" Oh and Mr. Hendren to the believer in Zeus or Odin, you are an atheist, an infidel, you don't believe what they believe. A more accurate definition for Atheist is one who is not a Theist. Now go and look up Theist. Because Deists, Polytheists, and those that don't believe in any God are all A-Theists. Believers in Zeus and Odin are Theists not A-Theists. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:23 AM:

" Ummm...Harry it is the Atheist the story speaks of wanting to push their beliefs. It is the Atheist that are always trying to take Christ out of Christmas like the evil threatening manger scene. If you read the news you will see, kids getting in trouble for bringing a bible to school, for praying silently before their lunch, for wearing a christian t-shirt, and other such things. You don't see that happening to the atheist who wears an anti-christian shirt. It happens all the time Harry. "

jr, I am not an atheist, far from it, I just don't believe religion has any place in our government or schools. You are entitled to your beliefs on this issue, and so am I. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:37 AM:

" "Good without God." Someone help. Without God, who defines good? "

The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:41 AM:

" So Catholics aren't Christians, JR? The world's theologians would disagree with you, but don't let that give you pause in propounding your bizarre theories. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:48 AM:

" TQ - by definition, a Christian group cannot be a terrorist group. In other words, someone who "kills in the name of Christ" obviously distorts the message Jesus brought.

Of course, ultimately you're talking about religion, not Christianity.

Christianity has always at its root been about relationship.

One of the major tensions in Christianity has always been between the organization of Christians and the organism of the Christian body (i.e., a group of believers moving according to the Holy Spirit). "

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:54 AM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2009 7:16 AM:
"
Practicing terrorism and "universal love." Quite a combination, eh? """""

thanks TQ, it's been a while since anyone's posted the christian terrorist organizations. the Baptist Taliban is alive and well....slaughtering in the name of christ!! "

hahvahd wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:01 AM:

" jr, am I hearing you correctly, that Catholics aren't a part of the Christian Church? What the heck are they, then, if not "real" Christians? "

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:45 AM:

" hahvahd wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:01 AM:
" jr, am I hearing you correctly, that Catholics aren't a part of the Christian Church? What the heck are they, then, if not "real" Christians? """""

totally correct. and the so called "christians" can thank martin luther or there would be no protestant religions....you'd all be catholic. "

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:58 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:45 PM:
"Their are many differences in the Catholic Church and the Christian Church. One instance is that the Catholic church doesn't believe you can pray to God directly, where the Christian church does. """""

"There" are few differences. one is liturgical and one is not. one believes the holy sacraments of communion are the actual body and blood of christ, one thinks they're symbolic. that's pretty much it....the rest is ritual and tradition. "

The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2009 12:47 PM:

" In other words, someone who "kills in the name of Christ" obviously distorts the message Jesus brought.
---
Right. Explain that that to all the self-described, Bible-waving, holy roller Christians in the military who drop bombs on all those "collateral damage" civilians. "

The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2009 12:49 PM:

" By the way, Collatine, I have been informed that Catholics are not Christians. Is that true? "

Collatine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 2:40 PM:

" TQ- I can't tell if you're being hyperbolic or literal. If you're being literal, please give me an example and prove your point of a "Bible-thumping, Holy Roller Christian" fighter pilot who bombs children, and we can ask how they reconcile their job with their faith.

As for Catholics, some have a relationship with Jesus and some don't... just like in every denomination.

But again I ask... if there is no God, if there is no absolute morality, then who determines what is Good? Is it Reason? In which case, since there is no absolute truth, who's reason is true and who is not? Is it society? Is it personal choice? Is it "how I FEEL about it?" Who determines? "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 3:14 PM:

" Collatine do you honestly think that God defines good? It is good to slaughter every man, woman, child and animal to get control of land you covet? It is good to tell folks to stone to death an adulterer? It is good to play games with the Devil and kill a mans family and livestock to prove a point? You honestly think that an allknowing, all powerful God that can intervene in the affairs of men and chooses not to, knowing that children born will starve to death, that millions would die in gas chambers, that women and children would be raped, maimed and hacked to death in Africa is a "GOOD" God?Those are your concepts of Good? Good/bad, right/wrong, moral/immoral are ALL human concepts and without a human will and the intelligence to use that will and a willingness to open ones mind to examine consequences of ones actions humans will continue to do bad things in the name of God. (as well as do bad things. in no Gods name, just for the pleasure of doing bad things) "

The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2009 3:32 PM:

" I am being literal, Collatine. Take Gen. William Boykin, for example. He gave a speech about hunting down Osman Atto in Mogadishu, and said, "He went on CNN and he laughed at us, and he said, 'They'll never get me because Allah will protect me. Allah will protect me.' Well, you know what? I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."
On April 10, 2008, Boykin spoke at Epicenter 2008, a conference in Israel hosted by Joel C. Rosenberg. There, he said, ""And when I stand up and I stand before Christ, I want there to be blood on my knees and my elbows. I want to be covered with mud. And I want to be standing there with a ragged breast plate of righteousness. And a spear in my hand. And I want to say, 'Look at me, Jesus. I've been in the battle. I've been fighting for you.' Ladies and gentlemen, put your armor on and get into battle. God bless you."
To be drenched in the blood of war-making for the glory of Jesus, Collatine. That's what he wants. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:25 PM:

" TQ - I agree that's creepy and I don't understand it.

Susan - I believe I asked, if there is no God with no absolutes, then who sets what is good and evil? Or is there such a thing? "

Collatine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:32 PM:

" Susan - basic Christian theology explains why evil exists if there is a good God. It explains that God gave authority to humans who gave it to Satan, and Satan's kingdom rules the planet with wickedness and evil. Knowing how intelligent you are, I know you understand this theology although you don't accept it. And we've gone round and around enough that you MUST have known this would be my response.

My question still stands... if there is nothing standing outside of Creation defining that murder is evil, then how do you know murder is evil? I ask that with sincerity (assuming there is such a thing!) :-) "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:40 PM:

" Boykin is an example of what I posted earlier. Assuming he wasn't referring to spiritual warfare, Boykin has obviously latched onto the Old Testament scriptures about God's people destroying their enemies. What Jesus taught is clearly absent from his world view, and the true Jesus would probably be quite alien to him. He wants to fight, he wants to hate the enemy--he can find what he wants in the Bible to justify that, but it isn't what Christ taught.

JRHendren, I've heard many Catholics pray, and they didn't seem to realize they couldn't pray directly to God. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:45 PM:

" Collatine philosophers and theologians have been debating the question you ask for centuries. Societies decide what is good. Individuals decide what is good. Philosophers and Theologians will tell what is good and what isn't. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide.

Humans seem to need an absolute authority they can appeal to to justify/sanctify their actions (get them off the hook for their bad behavior). Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, there are absolutely NO absolutes in this world.

I stumbled across a PBS series and then went and purchased the book that goes with it. "Justice, What's The Right Thing To Do?" by Michael J. Sandel. He examines the issue of what is morally and ethically right, what is the good thing to do from three different perspectives:Utilitarian, Libertarian and that of Promoting Virtue. Another good book but much older is "The Moral Sense" by James Q. Wilson. Basically he says that we are all born with a "moral Sense" that competes with our more basic and baser senses (survival, hunger, lust, greed, sex,anger, fear) and it doesn't always carry the day/come out of top. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:54 PM:

" One other thought Collatine. Through my reading and thinking over the years I came to realize that our Great Philosophers and the founders of the Worlds Great Religions discovered/stumbled across the same idea. You can read about it in Karen Armstrong's book "The Great Transformation, The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions". Basically they all discovered our common humanity, (it was the Golden Rule is based upon) and as I put it, it isn't what religion you follow or whether you follow any, all that matters is how you treat your fellow man, all of them, especially those that are different. With that as your foundation you can be prepared to decide "what is the right thing to do in this situation or that" because as I said ultimately you are the only one that can decide for you. "

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2009 5:03 PM:

" more good "Christian" spirituality :

WASHINGTON Anti-abortion activist Randall Terry is calling on people to burn effigies of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid this Halloween, as part of a "Burn in Hell" video contest to protest the health care legislation in Congress.

Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, said Tuesday that the contest serves as a political and spiritual statement that "gives people a chance to peacefully vent their rage." "

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2009 5:09 PM:

" more "christian" do-gooders:

A version of the anti-abortion initiative soundly defeated by Colorado voters in 2008 is making its way to the 2010 ballot, this time reworked as an egg-as-a-person initiative.

This new version would move the legal definition of a person further back into the reproductive cycle, granting cells the full spectrum of citizen rights. Opposition groups, including Colorado genetic and fertilization researchers, say the law would have spiraling consequences, that it would put women at risk and freeze current work in medicine and reproduction.

zygote

Colorado Right to Life and Personhood USA, the groups behind proposed Initiative 25, are undeterred by the fact that Coloradans voted against the test-run amendment last year by a margin of three to one. The new amendment is even farther reaching, moving the initial marker for the beginning of life from fertilization to the beginning of the biological development of a human being.

LMAO!!!....so by their own logic, a woman who menstruates is a murderer. "

Tpaine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 5:10 PM:

" Most evidence points to Hitler probably not being a Christian - he actually thought Christianity was a little sissy for lack of a better word. Most of what he said about Christianity was to convince the people to go along with what he wanted. That being said, he probably was a theist(not atheist). He was influenced by Gnostic, liberal Christian and Eastern religions and dabbled in the occult. Other important Nazi leaders were VERY heavy into the occult and even sent archaelogists to find the Holy Grail and Spear of Destiny. Hitler actually made comments about wanting to start a new religion based on race. Most holy wars were not started because of religion. They were started for political reasons and to gain power, but they were sold to the people using religion

Just because an Atheist killed a bunch of people doesn't make all Atheists bad. Conversely, just because a Christian killed a bunch of people doesn't make all Christians bad. If a religion teaches their followers to be good and TOLERANT, than I have no problem with it. I think most religions teach goodness, but I wonder about the tolerance sometimes.
-------------------
" And did you ever stop to think that possibly God might have wanted all of the countless wars, jihads, and crusades to happen, to put the world back into balance, to diminish some of the evil in the world because of the overabundant evil in the hearts of men?"

Why would an all-powerful God need to put the world back into balance? For that matter, why would an all-powerful God need to test us, guide us or anything else? If God is all-powerful and interferes than he didn't give us authority. If he knows what we are going to do and can influence what we do, than we don't have authority or free will. If we don't have control over our own lives, than what's the point? Why would an all-powerful God need to create a bunch of people in his likeness to worship him? This is why most of the founding fathers were clock-work Deists.

Collatine: You should read some of the Enlightenment philosophers(who had a heavy influence on the founding fathers) or even some Aristotle. We don't murder people and society punishes us for doing so, because that is not good for survival of the society. We keep from murdering people because we want to be happy. If society deems that murder is bad than we will be punished, therefore not happy. We typically lead the route that we think is going to make us the happiest, that may be through Christianity and it may not. I say, believe or don't believe as you want as long as you are tolerant to other people and good. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 27, 2009 5:26 PM:

" One of the things you unbelievers in God are always asking is that if God is real and if He is good then why does He not get rid of evil and suffering and tyrants and all those that do bad things but then when He has done that then you say He is a cold hearted murdering God. You do not seem to be able to grasp that God does not hate people but He hates the sinful and evil things that people do. God has often used evil people to punish evil people. He has used evil people to punish His chosen people when they rebelled. You probably cannot accept or understand the depth of sin and evil that the people living in the land God had promised the Israelites had fallen into. Just some clues for you it included child sacrifice, idol worship and homosexual sins. They would place babies that they had sacrificed to their pagan gods in jars in the walls of their houses. Archaeological discoveries confirm the truth of this. Even the Israelites were punished by God for participating in those things and God knew that when they went back into the land of Canaan those evil practices would become part of the Israelites lifestyle unless it was completely eradicated. God may use a Christian bomber pilot or He may use a pagan bomber pilot or He may do it Himself. In the city of Sodom there was not ten righteous men. That would be righteous by whose standards? Would it be your standards Fearless Humphreys, Abrahams standards, my standards, well duh! God is the one getting ready to destroy evil here so whose standards would it be oh fearless enlightened one?

If God got rid of all evil and evil people in the world then you who are rebelling against God would be disposed of quickly. You should be thanking Him that He is a patient God giving you every opportunity to accept Him through putting your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Those people of that day didnt have the easy way you have now fearless one. You cannot grasp that God made it easy for you by making this way for you instead of you having to earn Gods approval because you can never earn Gods approval. And here is something else Fearless Humphreys, you are not God.

Yeah many atrocities have happened in the name of Christianity but many many more have happened by those who are rebelling against God.

Fearless Humphreys says she is not afraid of God or death or anything. That is a stupid attitude. God is far to complex for you to understand Fearless Humphreys. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 5:55 PM:

" Susan - Yes, I'm aware that it's been debated by minds great and small for millenia. But how do YOU define right and wrong?

I do disagree religious founders "discovered" a common humanity. Jesus' "love your God and love everyone - including your enemies - like I have loved you" (paraphrase) is actually vastly different than just the Golden Rule. It's a rule I continually strive for.

But anyway, how do you know how you treat others is the right way? What standard do you use? "

unknownjoe wrote on Oct 27, 2009 6:23 PM:

" Susan, I don't believe I said anything about leaving town. What truths do you speak of. To the best of my recollection I have never mentioned a word about my beliefs in my posts so I am unaware of my hypocrisy in which you speak. I am as well read or more so than you; so differing ideas and opinions aren't alien to me. Why has being disenfranchised become an exuse to not succeed? In this country there are lawful ways of getting ahead and rising above your circumstances. There are too many examples to prove that if you want to succeed, you can succeed if you work hard enough. You don't see too many mainstream christians wearing homicide vests or driving VBIED's into crowded markets etc etc. Anyone who does these types of things, whatever their philosophy, religion, or political polarity is evil. Once you try to provide for all and make everyone happy, nothing really gets done. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:01 PM:

" Es intil discutir con los impos. Son egocntricos y narcisistas y creen que son el centro del universo. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:03 PM:

" Susan - I believe I asked, if there is no God with no absolutes, then who sets what is good and evil? Or is there such a thing? "
---------------

El mal no es nada ms que la ausencia del bien. "

Tpaine wrote on Oct 27, 2009 9:10 PM:

" society determines what is good and evil.

By the way I don't think Susan is the only person on here that thinks they are the center of the Universe. I heard somebody say once that evil is a lack of empathy, but I suppose you're right evil is a lack of good, but that doesn't make Atheists evil. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:32 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:13 AM:
" I expect you to take offense Mr. Hendren just as you should expect folks to take offense when you "put down" their God, their Religion, their Belief. You expect people to show respect to YOUR beliefs but you don't show respect for theirs? That isn't loving Christianity Mr. Hendren. "

Again you twist. I am not putting down what others believe, that again is you. Everyone has the right to believe as they wish, something you do not agree with. I have the right to speak my beliefs and stand up for those beliefs. You once again mistake respect, your one side only.
________________________________________

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:19 AM:
" Oh and Mr. Hendren to the believer in Zeus or Odin, you are an atheist, an infidel, you don't believe what they believe."

Then they do not know what an atheist is by definition. Are you going to change that definition to fit what you want it too like you do so often?
________________________________________

"A more accurate definition for Atheist is one who is not a Theist."

Yep, your going to change it too. You should rewrite the dictionary. Susan's New Dictionary, for when you want a meaning to mean something else.
________________________________________

Now go and look up Theist. Because Deists, Polytheists, and those that don't believe in any God are all A-Theists. Believers in Zeus and Odin are Theists not A-Theists. "

Good try but wrong again. A Theist believes in a Higher Power, but that he does not interfere in mans life. In other words he started the clock, but just lets it go. An Atheist does not believe in any Higher Power.

theist:
noun
1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation.
2. belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).

atheist
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:34 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:23 AM

"jr, I am not an atheist, far from it, I just don't believe religion has any place in our government or schools. You are entitled to your beliefs on this issue, and so am I."

For that I respect you my friend. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:36 PM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2009 8:41 AM:
" So Catholics aren't Christians, JR? The world's theologians would disagree with you, but don't let that give you pause in propounding your bizarre theories. "

Christians are not of the world. Look at the belief systems of both and you will see a lot of differences. Look at the history of Christianity and Catholicism and their roles in history you will see huge differences. It will take you not assuming but researching. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:40 PM:

" hahvahd wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:01 AM:
" jr, am I hearing you correctly, that Catholics aren't a part of the Christian Church? What the heck are they, then, if not "real" Christians? "

Do the research. The Catholic church does not speak for the Christian church. The differences are huge. To call oneself Christian does not make oneself Christian. I am not saying they are not part of the Christian church I am saying they are not THE Christian Church. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:42 PM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:45 AM:
" hahvahd wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:01 AM:
" jr, am I hearing you correctly, that Catholics aren't a part of the Christian Church? What the heck are they, then, if not "real" Christians? """""

totally correct. and the so called "christians" can thank martin luther or there would be no protestant religions....you'd all be catholic. "

Except for the others that broke from the Catholic Church.
________________________________________

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2009 10:58 AM:
" jrhendren wrote on Oct 26, 2009 11:45 PM:
"Their are many differences in the Catholic Church and the Christian Church. One instance is that the Catholic church doesn't believe you can pray to God directly, where the Christian church does. """""

"There" are few differences. one is liturgical and one is not. one believes the holy sacraments of communion are the actual body and blood of christ, one thinks they're symbolic. that's pretty much it....the rest is ritual and tradition. "

You once again speak of what you do not know. Their are a lot of differences in the two. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 PM:

" CrowWoman wrote on Oct 27, 2009 4:40 PM:
"JRHendren, I've heard many Catholics pray, and they didn't seem to realize they couldn't pray directly to God. "

In the Catholic religion to receive full penance, and receive sacrament you must go to confession. The priest is the mediator between you and God. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, and former Catholic Church members. The prayers for forgiveness can only be done by a priest. He forgives you of your sins. Problem is that Christ did not teach such things. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2009 7:47 AM:

" Collatine I don't always know that what I do is right BUT I do look at situations critically, I respect individual rights and use that as my baseline. I also consider the Utilitarian arguments of greatest good for greatest number but throw them out when they trample on an individuals right (the Libertarian position) to do something where the only thing wrong is a religious attitude or maxim. The best examples (that we have covered on these threads) are the rights of homosexuals and the rights of a woman to choose an abortion and whether torture is right or wrong. Generally I prefer to find the middle ground. Now a few folks here will (well you can read their posts). This forum is for the FREE discussion of different points of view and I use it to put forth ideas and arguments that push the buttons of some of the less than tolerant folks. I will challenge them to back up their opinions with facts or offer references. Most as I see it just don't like FREE discussion when their opinions are challenged. I firmly support the Right for honest discussion and debate, not lies or name calling or personal attacks (which is often their method of choice). "

Collatine wrote on Oct 28, 2009 8:28 AM:

" Tpaine we dont murder people because its good for society? American history is rife with communal acts of murder, often based on race. I suppose THOSE murders were ok, because society thought so?

Enlightenment philosophers like John Locke reasoned that people and actions could be reduced to mere chemical actions, and if the majority didnt like the chemical reactions in a certain group of people, all you had to do was to introduce new chemicals to achieve the desired affect, or perhaps just eliminate them altogether. 20th Century philosopher Theodor Adorno reasoned that the Enlightenment logically gave rise to 20th Century totalitarian regimes and socially-approved mass exterminations based on race or political ideology or any other criteria determined by society. Society once thought slavery is ok. Today, society thinks the objectification of women for self-gratification is ok. If thats a standard to determine right or wrong, fine but the standard continually changes and I hope one day society doesnt determine Christians should be eliminated because that would be wrong! LOL Anyway, for a brilliant science fiction exposition of the dangers Lockes theory (by an atheist), watch the movie Serenity. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2009 9:20 AM:

" Collatine another thought. Some argue that the Bible as the inerrant word of God is the authority on what is right/wrong, moral/immoral. YET we know the Bible is full of errors. The Bible says "thous shalt not kill" yet we allow killing in the line of duty for soldiers and policemen and in self-defense. The writers of the Bible (God?) never dreamed of stem cell research, machines that can keep a person in a vegetative state alive indefinitely, weapons of mass destruction,..... What is a mere mortal to do in these situations? Kant tried to address the problem with his concept of Categorical Imperative, "an unconditional moral law that is Universal (crosses all cultures), it applies to all rational beings, and is independent of any personal motive or desire. AND I would add has no "ifs, ands, or buts." Sandel discusses Kants ideas in detail in the "Justice" book. Some will say that such an imperative is "Do no harm". Except the whole debate over torture is about how much harm is acceptable in order to save innocent lives? And as I pointed out police and soldiers do harm others, it is part of the job. All of this is one reason the military and presidents talk about "collateral damage" when talking about civilian deaths. It is why folks like Mr. Vanatta insist that only a homosexual would support the rights of homosexuals, only a woman who has had an abortion would support a womans right to choose. If your stance on a subject is for personal reasons it isn't a moral imperative. "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 9:34 AM:

" Yeah many atrocities have happened in the name of Christianity but many many more have happened by those who are rebelling against God.

Fearless Humphreys says she is not afraid of God or death or anything. That is a stupid attitude. God is far to complex for you to understand Fearless Humphreys. """""

jonniewad.....you're a great comedian.

so atrocities are fine. as long as you mention "god" while you're disemboweling someone, it's ok.

and jonniewad, if god is so mighty and powerful, why wouldn't he care to help you with your spelling and grammar? "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 9:58 AM:

" hmmmm......ok, so if i believe in "jesus the christ", worship him, take the holy sacrament of communion, ask forgiveness of my sins and believe in an eternal afterlife with him....i can't be a christian????

that's very interesting jr, i'm sure others are impressed with your judgment.....ROFLMAO!!! "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:04 AM:

" catholics, lutherans, episcopalians, presbyterians, muslims, jews, buddhists, atheists, agnostics and anyone who's not a baptist or other freak charismatic are going to burn in he11 for eternity....

correct jr & jonniewad???? "

The Question wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:10 AM:

" For you to claim that Catholics are not Christian, JR, makes exactly as much sense as claiming that water isn't wet. Without Catholics to provide Christianity to you, you Protestants would never even have HAD a religion. Your claim is embarrassingly ignorant for a person of your obvious intelligence. "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:10 AM:

" billions of small children are burning in he11 because they didn't know jesus before they died.....interesting "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:14 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 PM:
"In the Catholic religion to receive full penance, and receive sacrament you must go to confession. The priest is the mediator between you and God. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, and former Catholic Church members. The prayers for forgiveness can only be done by a priest. He forgives you of your sins. Problem is that Christ did not teach such things. """""

you are full of BS...totally clueless. "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:30 AM:

" here's the deal jr....pay attention.

the confession of sin to a priest is done to TEACH you humility. it's a tradition, NOT a requirement to speak to "god". "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:38 AM:

" Mr. Hendren people pray for much more than forgiveness. They pray (and this goes for Protestants and Catholics) for guidance, they pray for strength, they sometimes pray to win the lottery or help in getting out of a jam. Catholic priests will tell you that you don't need to run those prayers by your priest before you utter them you can send them directly yourself. "

even steven wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:03 AM:

" I went to church once and didn't really care for it. I don't much care for organized religion in general, either. If others find enjoyment in it, I have no problem with it; it's just not for me. I have no problem with the concept of Diety, either, especially since I often consider Diety a metaphor for existence itself, which is infinite and beyond human comprehension. People can worship cabbages or rocks for all I care as long as they don't expect me to do the same. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 28, 2009 12:42 PM:

" " catholics, lutherans, episcopalians, presbyterians, muslims, jews, buddhists, atheists, agnostics and anyone who's not a baptist or other freak charismatic are going to burn in he11 for eternity....

correct jr & jonniewad???? "

Not correct
All those who reject Jesus Christ will suffer eternal separation from God and their friends "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 28, 2009 12:51 PM:

" father bob, If you would spend some time to study God's Word along with some who do understand it instead of just trying to tear it down and ridicule it you might learn something and you wouldn't have to ask all these stupid questions that indicate you do not have a clue about Truth.

There are places to do that you know they are called Bible Believing Churches and some of them are even Catholic. "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 2:22 PM:

" oh my.....another republican shows his "moral family values"

SC State official Roland Corning out of a job after incident "

Tpaine wrote on Oct 28, 2009 3:09 PM:

" Collatine:
Christianity has also determined that innocent people should be murdered, thrown into slavery and has committed their fair share of atrocities. What is the difference if society determines what is right or wrong or if religion determines what is right or wrong, its the same thing either way. Being that we do not have a Utopian society, they will sometimes screw up as does Christianity. It is illogical to think that because a few societies have done the wrong thing that they can't determine what is right or wrong. If that's the case than what right does Christianity have to determine what is right or wrong. Do some reading on our founding fathers. This nation was founded by a bunch of guys that were NOT Christian and purposefully set up a nation that doesn't use religion as the basis for its laws. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own bible, writing out the Trinity, all miracles and making Jesus just a normal guy and said that Christianity is the worst thing to happen to humans.

You do realize that John Locke isn't the only enlightenment philosopher, right? Just because you watched a movie about Locke doesn't mean all enlightenment philosophers are bad. But, if thats the case, than I read about Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, J. Adams, Madison, Monroe, Paine, Hamilton, Allen, Harnett, Morris and Williamson and they say that Christianity led to the Dark Ages and the domination of Europe by Tyrannical Kings and Queens. Oh, by the way, these are the people that formed our nation and made it what it is and they loved the Enlightenment. Well, I guess that just makes you downright unpatriotic. "

The Question wrote on Oct 28, 2009 3:30 PM:

" Science has been described as the record of dead religions. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2009 3:45 PM:

" Don't forget Matthew 25: 31.... Mr. Vanatta. People will be accepted into heaven not by their religion, belief in Jesus or even in God but by their actions towards their fellow man. Or do you think that section of Matthew is a lie? If that is a lie than golly, gee how can you say any other part of the Bible is telling the Truth? "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 4:05 PM:

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 28, 2009 12:51 PM:
" father bob, If you would spend some time to study God's Word along with some who do understand it instead of just trying to tear it down and ridicule it you might learn something and you wouldn't have to ask all these stupid questions that indicate you do not have a clue about Truth."""""

and just who is it that insists the world is 6000 years old? you wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the face like a copy of the koran. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 28, 2009 4:25 PM:

" Susan - "Thou shalt not kill" - a centuries old translation that today is more accurately rendered "don't murder." State-sanctioned killing isn't murder, a cop shooting someone isn't murder (usually), and so on. Jesus further expounded on this by saying, if you gossip or talk badly or tear someone down, that's the same thing as murder. (Yikes!)

Christianity has never "sanctioned slavery" or war or whatever, although CHRISTIANS have. Christianity is a movement... not an entity that issues position statements. Slavery exists in society from time to time. War happens. Christians make good and bad decisions, but they do not define Christianity. The New Testament writers define it.

Christianity is relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ with the power of the Holy Spirit. Different churches and denominations try to facilitate that, emphasize different streams within the river of Christianity, but at the base, that's all it is. Relationship, not religion.

Some strands of Christianity emphasize the Word (and Reason) over other aspects (it's odd that over the last 2 millenia, scholars have tried to point out errors or confusions in the Bible, but the counters to these supposed errors have always been stronger). Others emphasize the move of the Holy Spirit and emotion. My particular stream is "the Radical Middle" in the Vineyard Church.

Anyone confused about how the various aspects of the Bible relate to each other (i.e., the "mean" Old Testament God and the "nice" New Testament one), I invite to "Nothing is Going to Stop It" which the storyline of the Bible, at the Vineyard in Urbana on Nov 6 and 7. Google "Vineyard Church Urbana" for details.

Tpaine - Isn't early in the debate to be insulting me already?? LOL History has advanced somewhat since the 1790s. The fall of the Roman Empires plunged Western Civilization into the Middle Ages, not Christianity...

I've never heard Washington and some of the others described as an Enlightenment scholars. In fact, The Founders had a very anti-Enlightenment view of human nature, which generally concluded that in the right environment, humans are by nature good. In fact, the Constitution is based on the supposition that people are evil and power hungry and distrustworthy (a very Christian worldview) and thus a Constitution with checks and balances and moving most of government far from being impacted directly by the masses.

The French Revolution (the 1790s one) was truly a revolution based on the Enlightenment, and you'll recall the actions of the Jacobins were a precursor to Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and other regimes based on Enlightenment principles (there is no God, people are merely chemical reactions with no true meaning except to serve a state heading towards utopia, and after death only annihilation). "

Tpaine wrote on Oct 28, 2009 5:37 PM:

" Collatine:
Wow, you need to do some research, nearly ALL enlightenment thinkers based their philosophies on the idea that humans are born evil and society and government are necessary to keep them from killing each other. Yes, the founding fathers were HEAVILY influenced by the enlightenment, ask any historian or American Revolution scholar. How about we look at some of our Enlightenment thinkers.
Rousseau: Humans are evil by nature. power to make laws should be in the hands of the people.
Voltaire: champion of individual rights and civil liberties, including the freedom of religion and right to a fair trial.
Montesuieu: People are evil by nature. Separation of Powers. Staunch critic of slavery.
Locke: People are evil by nature. everyone had a right to life, health, liberty, possessions. advocated separation of powers. People had an obligation to revolt when warranted(Jefferson said we should have a revolution every 19 years).
Condorcet: equal rights, free public education,
Herder:Democracy, Republican self-rule

Those things sound really similar to the basis of American government. All the enlightenment philosophers claimed that people were born evil or at least animalistic and thats why government was necessary. How about this, get on wikipedia and look up the Enlightenment. Three of the enlightenment thinkers they list: Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and James Madison. All of the founding fathers I listed before were all deists and many were freemasons. The most important enlightenment thinkers were Deists and freemasons. Come on, do some research before you form your opinion, and stop being unpatriotic. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 28, 2009 6:21 PM:

" even steven said, "I don't much care for organized religion in general"

I am with you on that even steven, organized religion doesn't really help anyone. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 28, 2009 6:31 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2009 3:45 PM:

" Don't forget Matthew 25: 31.... Mr. Vanatta"

Ms. Humphreys you have a very short memory. I have explained to you before that if you do not want to look foolish you should not use this passage about the judgment of Tribulation Gentils. During the Tribulation Gentils will be judged for their treatment of Jesus' brethren. Right now you are not treating them very well. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 28, 2009 6:41 PM:

" Ms. Humphreys, looks like posts on your letter "Looking out for others
is part of reform effort" may be pretty well dying down but I have put one there for you that I think will be of help to you and I hope you will check it. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 28, 2009 6:53 PM:

" " Science has been described as the record of dead religions.
-----------------------------

And Oscar Wilde was a socialist and a man of questionable morality...hmmmm socialist and questionable morality...isn't ti odd how those two things so oft go together?

And here's one from you since I keep track of the blogs you cut and paste from...

Science investigates; religion interprets.

Science gives man knowledge which is power; region gives man wisdom which is control.

Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values.

The two are not rivals. They are complementary.
Martin Luther King, Jr "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:30 PM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 9:58 AM:
" hmmmm......ok, so if i believe in "jesus the christ", worship him, take the holy sacrament of communion, ask forgiveness of my sins and believe in an eternal afterlife with him....i can't be a christian????

that's very interesting jr, i'm sure others are impressed with your judgment.....ROFLMAO!!! "

Nice try but that is not what I said at all. Why don't you try reading all of a post and not make it up as you go along.
________________________________________

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:04 AM:
" catholics, lutherans, episcopalians, presbyterians, muslims, jews, buddhists, atheists, agnostics and anyone who's not a baptist or other freak charismatic are going to burn in he11 for eternity....

correct jr & jonniewad???? "

You now think you know my denomination? Well sorry but you are wrong once again. Keep trying eventually you'll get something right. "Even a blind dog finds a bone sooner or later." "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:33 PM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:10 AM:
" For you to claim that Catholics are not Christian, JR, makes exactly as much sense as claiming that water isn't wet. Without Catholics to provide Christianity to you, you Protestants would never even have HAD a religion. Your claim is embarrassingly ignorant for a person of your obvious intelligence. "

First I once again never said, "Catholics are not Christian" but nice try on the spin and twist. Secondly, the Christian church was established way before Catholicism. "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." - Acts Of The Apostles 11:26b Christianity would be doing fine without the additions of Catholicism sorry. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:37 PM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:10 AM:
" billions of small children are burning in he11 because they didn't know jesus before they died.....interesting "

Wrong again. If they are not at the "age of accountability", differing of course to a child's maturity level, then they are not in danger. One who does not have the capability to understand, is not held to that level.
________________________________________

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:14 AM:
" jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 PM:
"In the Catholic religion to receive full penance, and receive sacrament you must go to confession. The priest is the mediator between you and God. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, and former Catholic Church members. The prayers for forgiveness can only be done by a priest. He forgives you of your sins. Problem is that Christ did not teach such things. """""

you are full of BS...totally clueless. "

Why, because I quote from fact and you just make it up as you go along? Christ taught the people how to pray to God, he did not say, "first go find a priest." Wrong again Bob.
________________________________________

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:30 AM:
" here's the deal jr....pay attention.

the confession of sin to a priest is done to TEACH you humility. it's a tradition, NOT a requirement to speak to "god". "

Now who is clueless? Try reading about the topic then get back to me. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:39 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:38 AM:
" Mr. Hendren people pray for much more than forgiveness. They pray (and this goes for Protestants and Catholics) for guidance, they pray for strength, they sometimes pray to win the lottery or help in getting out of a jam. Catholic priests will tell you that you don't need to run those prayers by your priest before you utter them you can send them directly yourself. "

However, if you do not go to the priest you can not receive the sacraments. Does no one research anymore? "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:48 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2009 3:45 PM:
" Don't forget Matthew 25: 31.... Mr. Vanatta. People will be accepted into heaven not by their religion, belief in Jesus or even in God but by their actions towards their fellow man. Or do you think that section of Matthew is a lie? If that is a lie than golly, gee how can you say any other part of the Bible is telling the Truth? "

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory." - Matthew 25:31

Try actually reading the Scriptures and studying them and you might quote them correctly. Verse 31 has nothing to do with people going to heaven. I am sure you are speaking of Matthew 25:31-40, though that is not what you said. Still try using the entire Scriptures not just one here and there. I know you hate to cross reference, or do research on a topic but try this one time. Trying reading Romans 4:1-10, or Romans 11:5-7. They will maybe help you. We are not saved by works, but by the blood of Christ our Savior. Quit trying to use the Scriptures to push your godless agenda. "

The Question wrote on Oct 29, 2009 6:00 AM:

" As the Onion headlines reported yesterday: "Bible In Breast Pocket Miraculously Stops Conversation." "

The Question wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:13 AM:

" Who decides what it's right for you to do? Well, who decides what it's good for you to eat?
You do, aided by your own intelligence, science and the accumulated wisdom of the culture. Apply all that to the question at hand, and you'll be reasonably healthy. Ignore all that, and you'll likely end up as a 400-pound diabetic.
Of course, I suppose you could just go to the Bible for all your dietary advice. But the Bible tells you that eating shellfish is an "abomination," and believing that would be stupid. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:51 AM:

" Mr. Hendren the discuussion topic was just about differences between Catholics and Protestants and you mentioned Prayer. You also by the way can't take the sacraments yourself. Communion is given by your minister, baptisms are performed by your minister, no difference between it being given by a priest or by your minister. "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:53 AM:

" J.R. wrote, "Wrong again. If they are not at the "age of accountability", differing of course to a child's maturity level, then they are not in danger. One who does not have the capability to understand, is not held to that level."

Show me in the Bible where an "age of accountability" is discussed. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:55 AM:

" Mr. Hendren sorry I used the euphemism "going to heaven" instead of the euphemism "being saved." BUT the fact remains it doesn't matter what any other part of the Bible says, Matthew 25, 31... says what it says. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that there are MANY ways a person can be saved--faith alone, faith and good works, good works alone. ALL are presented in the Bible. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:59 AM:

" Actually Mr. Hendren the first Christian churches were Jewish oriented churches, they fully believed that one had to be a Jew (gentiles must be circumcised, dietary laws followed). They were the followers of James not followers of Paul. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 8:01 AM:

" AND you Mr. Vanatta will be judged on how YOU treat others that aren't your brethren and you haven't been doing very well for much longer than I. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 8:05 AM:

" Oh and Mr. Vanatta I know I shouldn't keep reminding you of the one passage in the Bible that says that you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved. But it is there and can not be denied. Oh and it isn't about how one treats JEWS it is how one treats ALL people because Jesus believed that ALL people were his brothers, not just his fellow Jews. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 29, 2009 8:35 AM:

" TQ - for all your intelligence, sometimes you refuse to use context. (I believe you refuse to use it on purpose, just to be argumentative).

Eating shellfish causes more allergies in Americans than anything else. It must have been the same back then also. The context those Old Testament of the shellfish rules and other health rules (crazy stuff like washing your hands before you eat or after you touch feces) makes it clear those are not moral laws, they are "health codes."

Food that makes people sick should be avoided... like restaurants that don't clean their bathrooms. The Health Department might even close it down, but the level of punishment isn't the same as, say, for murder.

Anyway, all (spiritual) penalties for violating OT laws were done away with by Jesus. So while shellfish is free game, it'll still make lots of people sick!

A Muslim acquaintance of mine was having stew, and didn't realize it had pork in it. Many people can eat pork with no problem, those who have not eaten it... it's a different story. After about 20 minutes, he started to get ill, and then asked, "Is there pork in this soup?" The host was mortified, having forgotten there was. He was quite sick until his body passed it. Interesting, and perhaps sheds light on some of those other health codes in the OT. "

father bob wrote on Oct 29, 2009 9:29 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on Oct 28, 2009 11:37 PM:
" father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:10 AM:
" billions of small children are burning in he11 because they didn't know jesus before they died.....interesting "

Wrong again. If they are not at the "age of accountability", differing of course to a child's maturity level, then they are not in danger. One who does not have the capability to understand, is not held to that level.
________________________________________

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2009 10:14 AM:
" jrhendren wrote on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 PM:
"In the Catholic religion to receive full penance, and receive sacrament you must go to confession. The priest is the mediator between you and God. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, and former Catholic Church members. The prayers for forgiveness can only be done by a priest. He forgives you of your sins. Problem is that Christ did not teach such things."""""

here ya go jr....like is said you're full of BS when it comes to catholicism:

John 20:21-23 (New International Version)

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

priests have acted in the manner of the apostles for centuries, but they are NOT the only connection to a "god" or praying to a "god".....

try to find a topic you know something about. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 29, 2009 9:41 AM:

" The Q, if you would actually read that Scripture you might gain some understanding. It does not say eating shellfish is an abomination to God; it says it will be an abomination to you. Some of the shellfish in that area of the wilderness were poisonous. God always has reasons for His rules and His rules are for our good. "

The Question wrote on Oct 29, 2009 12:25 PM:

" I've read your book of myths, Vanatta. Ecclesiastes is impressive. Some of the other books are tedious, and some of them are crazy. "

The Question wrote on Oct 29, 2009 12:36 PM:

" Exodus 32:27-29 (King James Version)
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
---------
Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
----------
And would that be your wonderful "God of Love" talking there, wouldn't it? "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 12:59 PM:

" Actually Collatine Jesus did not do away with the Old Testament laws, Paul did. The dietary laws I agree were set for food safety reasons. You could also say the ruling against man lying with man was also set for safety reasons, not because homosexuality was sinful. Yet many still site Leviticus as their primary reason for calling homosexual behavior sinful. Since we are agreed that the Bible needs to be read and understood in light of its times and decisions made about (diet and homosexual behavior) in light of what we know today, the same goes with all the rest of the Old Testament, Genesis, the writings of the Prophets, ...... "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 1:02 PM:

" Collatine the fact is you can't claim that the Bible (Old and New Testaments) are the inerrant word of God and then pick and choose which parts support your prejudices and ignore the rest. That is what Mr. Hendren and Mr. Vanatta do when confronted with that nasty little Matthew 25:31..... BUT you can accept the Bible for what it is a wonderful mix of poetry and prose, fact and fiction, myth and metaphor and read it thoughtfully. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 29, 2009 2:21 PM:

" I am with you on that even steven, organized religion doesn't really help anyone. "

And I suppose Internet preaching does. Beside that, there's no pesky collection plate on here, right jon. lol! "

Texas T wrote on Oct 29, 2009 3:12 PM:

" Gee Penny, I bet you wish you never opened this bag of worms. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 29, 2009 3:35 PM:

" Susan - I can't disagree with your statement, but I would phrase it differently. By "inerrant Word of God" doesn't mean "to be interpreted literally"... but rather, "self-interpreting", poetry is poetry, analogies and parables and metaphors abound, and the context indicates thusly. I would suggest all of it is Truth, although it's up to the reader to accept and discern that.

Regarding doing away with the OT law... that was worded carelessly. More literally: by accepting Christ's sacrifice, Jesus advocates before the Father on our behalf for violating the law, which we all do. Old Testament prophecies, Jesus' words, and the words of the apostles all point to that.

TQ - God is holy, which means "set apart" and "without sin" and "pure" and the story of the Bible includes a his attempt to set apart a people for himself, which didn't work out. Also, the Exodus example presaged the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was poured out and 3000 souls accepted Christ, thus launching Christianity across the Empire. They are incredibly congruous events. "

The Question wrote on Oct 29, 2009 4:25 PM:

" Good try, Collatine. You are by far the most knowledgeable and eloquent of God's pals here. "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 29, 2009 5:34 PM:

" Excellent posts, Collatine, particularly the one of October 28, 4:25 p.m. in which you describe your take on Christianity. I also liked the points you made elsewhere about the O.T. dietary laws. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:57 PM:

" Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network posted a blog by Kimberly Daniels recently that warns Christians to forgo celebrating Halloween because of its evilness. Daniels specifically calls out candy as a source of soul-molestation:

"During this period demons are assigned against those who participate in the rituals and festivities. These demons are automatically drawn to the fetishes that open doors for them to come into the lives of human beings. For example, most of the candy sold during this season has been dedicated and prayed over by witches."

Holy cow! Shades of another preacher Jon type of theory. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 29, 2009 8:49 PM:

" What most of you...EVEN CHRISTIANS...fail to recognize is the supernatural implications of the Bible.

You all perseverate on the exact wording in the Bible, quote verses, and then "play gotcha" with societal customs germane to the time of the Bible's writing. Both sided prove nothing 'cuz you don't look past the words...

To understand the Bible fully you need to consider it's contents in the same way a police detective would investigate a crime... by identifying specifics that can't be violated and specific artifacts,...and by deduction and inference.

Consider this...God says, early in the Bible, that his way and understanding is way beyond that of mankind.

I think everyone would agree that a human's understanding is far greater than the understanding of say your household pet dog, right?

But you still communicate with your dog, don't you? You train it to react or conduct itself in certain ways, don't you? Babies don't talk but you communicate with them, don't you, and they understand basic things, right?

When your dog does wrong you smack it in the butt or rattle a can...or whatever... for it to comply....basic behavior modification.

So, if you know anything about the trials and tribulations of the ancient tribes of Isreal, most of what God did was to scold his kids when they did wrong.

When they were bad that got scolded, and when the were good...they got 'treats'.

God, with 'man' still in his childhood, then gave the ten commandments.

Like with kids you tell them what they should do and should not do to stay in your good graces as a parent.

Later, as the "kids' started to grow up, God gave Christ to the world and in essence said, "live by my commandments, but as I know the world is becoming more complex and it's hard to live exactly by my commandments... do this...love each other as I have loved you (symbolic act of the death Crucification)...renounce your sins (use baptism as the symbolic act as proof to me and others, and your gonna sin cause when Adam/Eve told God we think we know better...you decided to go against perfection) and try to follow my ways...and just believe in me...because as you get older, jaded, and confused by the complexities in life as to what's 'right'...you'll put me on the 'back-burner'...but don't do that!

Later, as the 'kids' grew up they gained an identity, like teenagers do.

They gained their identify with the Nicene Creed which said...this is who we are...and probably a little bit different than the parent (GOD) wanted!

Consider that a few books of the bible were thrown out like the lost books of Eden, the Gospel of Thomas, Epistle of Barnabas, and so forth.

Why? Because like teens do, they wanted only a few people to be in the 'in' crowd.

I could blather on...but... "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 29, 2009 9:58 PM:

" Very interesting post, NeoCon. Are you then not a Christian, at least in any orthodox sense of the word? "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:22 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:51 AM:
" Mr. Hendren the discuussion topic was just about differences between Catholics and Protestants and you mentioned Prayer. You also by the way can't take the sacraments yourself. Communion is given by your minister, baptisms are performed by your minister, no difference between it being given by a priest or by your minister. "

Wrong again Susan. Do you ever check your statements. The minister does not serve the communion, and baptism can be preformed by any Christian, just as in the Scriptures. Try doing research before you type it would help your argument. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:39 PM:

" CrowWoman wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:53 AM:
" J.R. wrote, "Wrong again. If they are not at the "age of accountability", differing of course to a child's maturity level, then they are not in danger. One who does not have the capability to understand, is not held to that level."

Show me in the Bible where an "age of accountability" is discussed. "

Okay, Isaiah 7:16, Deuteronomy 1:39, 1 Corinthians 4:5, Proverbs 22:6, Ephesians 6:4, Matthew 19:14, Psalms 8:2, and Luke 18:17 to name a few. Though the words "age of accountability" are not said it is very much there. Just as the word "rapture" is not in the Scriptures the definition is. All one has to do is a little research and stop assuming. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:46 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:55 AM:
" Mr. Hendren sorry I used the euphemism "going to heaven" instead of the euphemism "being saved." BUT the fact remains it doesn't matter what any other part of the Bible says, Matthew 25, 31... says what it says. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that there are MANY ways a person can be saved--faith alone, faith and good works, good works alone. ALL are presented in the Bible. "

You really need to do some reading.

"Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts Of The Apostles 2:38
The Scriptures are clear that one must
Believe
Repent
Confess
Be Baptized
Teach the Word by mouth or by ones actions.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..." - Matthew 28:19-20a

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

The TRUTH is that there is only one way to heaven or be saved that is through the blood of Christ our Lord, Jesus. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:50 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 7:59 AM:
" Actually Mr. Hendren the first Christian churches were Jewish oriented churches, they fully believed that one had to be a Jew (gentiles must be circumcised, dietary laws followed). They were the followers of James not followers of Paul. "

They were the followers of Jesus, as preached by Peter. Peter was later reprimanded by Paul. Paul being the preacher to the Gentiles. The followers of "The Way" later called themselves Christians in Antioch. You might want to read the book entitled "The Acts Of The Apostles" it can be found after John and before Romans in the Bible. It is full of early church history. "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:52 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 8:05 AM:
" Oh and Mr. Vanatta I know I shouldn't keep reminding you of the one passage in the Bible that says that you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved. But it is there and can not be denied. Oh and it isn't about how one treats JEWS it is how one treats ALL people because Jesus believed that ALL people were his brothers, not just his fellow Jews. "

You are full of lies. There is not one passage that states that one does not have to believe in Christ. On the contrary they all say you do. Read, read, read, not jump, jump, jump! "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:56 PM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 29, 2009 9:29

"here ya go jr....like is said you're full of BS when it comes to catholicism:

John 20:21-23 (New International Version)

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

priests have acted in the manner of the apostles for centuries, but they are NOT the only connection to a "god" or praying to a "god".....

try to find a topic you know something about. "

Right Christ said to the apostles, not Priests of a certain church. The apostles were given several "special" abilities. They preformed several miracles. In Catholicism the priest is the only one who can forgive sins, and who gives him the power? A man, the Pope, not Christ. Maybe you and Susan should take your own advise and "try to find a topic you know something about." "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 30, 2009 12:02 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 12:59 PM:
" Actually Collatine Jesus did not do away with the Old Testament laws, Paul did. The dietary laws I agree were set for food safety reasons. You could also say the ruling against man lying with man was also set for safety reasons, not because homosexuality was sinful. Yet many still site Leviticus as their primary reason for calling homosexual behavior sinful. Since we are agreed that the Bible needs to be read and understood in light of its times and decisions made about (diet and homosexual behavior) in light of what we know today, the same goes with all the rest of the Old Testament, Genesis, the writings of the Prophets, ...... "

Do you ever research before you type? Jesus did away with the Law, yet reinstated some, by his fulfilling the Law. He was the only one who ever could. We are no longer under the Old Covenant of the Law, but under the New Covenant of the Blood of Christ. It is also God who speaks to Peter about calling things clean and unclean. I would suggest reading the entire Bible and then come up with your comments. As for homosexuality I will just remind yo to read the book of "Romans". "

jrhendren wrote on Oct 30, 2009 12:09 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 29, 2009 1:02 PM:
" Collatine the fact is you can't claim that the Bible (Old and New Testaments) are the inerrant word of God and then pick and choose which parts support your prejudices and ignore the rest.

WARNING: POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!
This is just exactly what you do. Thanks for the laugh to break the tension.
________________________________________

That is what Mr. Hendren and Mr. Vanatta do when confronted with that nasty little Matthew 25:31..... BUT you can accept the Bible for what it is a wonderful mix of poetry and prose, fact and fiction, myth and metaphor and read it thoughtfully. "

What on earth are you talking about. You are the one who misquoted the Scripture in the first place. This verse does not even speak of the Word be God's. Unlike 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Stop picking and choosing Susan it just hurts your credit, and shows your lack of reading and research. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 30, 2009 8:43 AM:

" Collatine inerrant means without error, infallible, no mistakes. I agree that the Bible is not to be interpreted literally. Yet that is what folks like Mr. Vanatta and Mr. Hendren try to do and to do so misses the "real" message and true majesty of some of the passages. AND I put "real" in quotes because just as you say it is all up for individual interpretation. AND I might add how a person interprets the Bible as Crow Woman pointed out much earlier really depends on the type of person you are, if you look for passages to support your fear and hate and justify your persecution of others you can find them. If you look for passages and preach a gospel of love and peace and hope and respect for ALL people you will find that as well.There are many paths through the woods, no path is for everyone, we each have to find the path that suits us. In the end I firmly "BELIEVE" that they all lead to the same place. (I put believe in caps and quotes because I admit I don't have absolute knowledge since I haven't been there yet, that I know of, I may have been reincarnated, but who knows!) "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 30, 2009 8:52 AM:

Collatine wrote on Oct 30, 2009 9:20 AM:

" tpaine- sorry I missed your earlier Enlightenment response.

Couple of thoughts - it takes more than a cursory reading to understand what the Enlightenment yielded. The writings are voluminous and expand decades.

Early writers (Montesquieu, and some of Locke) accepted the notion of the Fall. Later, writers (latter writings of Locke, Voltaire, etc) concluded that there was only materialism, no God and religion especially was bad. Hence they were "enlightened" to the "reality of nature", doing away with superstition and embracing Reason, which oddly led to the Romantic period.

Early Enlightenment ideas were embraced by the Founders, but the later writings were not. Roussseau's later writings, for instance, embraced pure anarchy (or a state of nature), not democracy.

So on the surface, you're correct, but you need to embrace the entire Enlightenment to understand my earlier point, not just the early period (which the Founders embraced). The later period yielded the French Revolution and later atrocities - although granted that is debatable. "

father bob wrote on Oct 30, 2009 12:46 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:56 PM:
"In Catholicism the priest is the only one who can forgive sins, and who gives him the power? A man, the Pope, not Christ. Maybe you and Susan should take your own advise and "try to find a topic you know something about." """""

yadda yadda yadda......you haven't a clue nor the ability to grasp the concept. what a total waste of time it is to converse with your deficient mental capacity. "

Collatine wrote on Oct 30, 2009 1:18 PM:

" JR- Most of the time I post very quickly without re-reading the thoughts, often just off the top of my head, and sometimes they are quite random and may not make sense... Often, I skim the posts I respond to, and maybe miss something in them. Often that leads to mis-statements or later corrections. It's not like this is a dissertation review, and I don't expect to convince anyone. I do this sort of thing just for fun and hurridly... Besides, you just never know when the thread will disappear!

Unlike the Word of God, I am not infallible! hee hee "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 30, 2009 2:41 PM:

" Mr. Hendren if Baptisms can be performed by anybody why then I could baptise myself or have a neighbor do it? In fact we could just say that we did and who would be the wiser? You cheapen the meaning of the concept. Just like all other areas of doctrine Mr. Hendren Christians have a great variety of beliefs about communion (who can and can not partake as well as who consecrates it and distrributes it), baptism, the interpretation of passages. James was Jesus successor not Paul. The church founded by Paul is the usurper. You really do need to learn about Biblical history. Face it you are in a very small minority of Christian churches and not at all like the original Christian church. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 30, 2009 2:52 PM:

" Wait a minute Mr. Hendren are you saying that part of Matthew is not the word of God? ("This verse does not even speak of the Word be Gods")But then you quote 2 Timothy 3:16 (All scripture is God-breathed....) Me thinks you are a bit confused "shi- up a creek", if Matthew 25:31... isn't the "Word of God" then what is? How can you possibly claim that any other part is? "

The Question wrote on Oct 30, 2009 3:15 PM:

" So you're rejecting one of the synoptic gospels, JR? My, you do have a novel view of "Christianity," don't you? "

father bob wrote on Oct 30, 2009 3:19 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 30, 2009 2:52 PM:
" Wait a minute Mr. Hendren are you saying that part of Matthew is not the word of God? ("This verse does not even speak of the Word be Gods")But then you quote 2 Timothy 3:16 (All scripture is God-breathed....) Me thinks you are a bit confused "shi- up a creek", if Matthew 25:31... isn't the "Word of God" then what is? How can you possibly claim that any other part is? """""

he and jonniewad make it up as they go. they must be sharing the same hymnal...... "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 30, 2009 3:44 PM:

" Very interesting post, NeoCon. Are you then not a Christian, at least in any orthodox sense of the word? "
-------------------------------------
Crow woman,

If you are asking whether or not I believe in the God of Jehovah in the holy trinity, my answer is yes.

If you are asking whether or not I have an unorthodox belief in God my answer would also be yes.

Do I attend church? Yes, I attend on a semi-regular basis, and have served in officiating capacities. I do, however, have issues with my current denomination (too liberal), but not anymore than with the other denominations I have attended that were too dogmatic.

It's been my observation that religion, and in a much more pronounced manner today than any other time, 'pigeon-holes' the concept of God.

I know why it's done...to provide a system for believing in God for adherents of God...but how people maintain the 'system' does nothing more than perpetuate an 'adolescent' belief in God by the adherents. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 30, 2009 3:57 PM:

" As for homosexuality I will just remind you to read the book of "Romans". "
------------
I hate to throw out verses but,
don't forget:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
1 Timothy 1:10
2 Timothy 3:3
Jude 7,8,9 "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 30, 2009 4:06 PM:

" J.R. wrote, "Okay, Isaiah 7:16, Deuteronomy 1:39, 1 Corinthians 4:5, Proverbs 22:6, Ephesians 6:4, Matthew 19:14, Psalms 8:2, and Luke 18:17 to name a few. Though the words "age of accountability" are not said it is very much there. Just as the word "rapture" is not in the Scriptures the definition is. All one has to do is a little research and stop assuming."

The O.T. verses you listed refer only to children eventually being able to discern good vs. evil. No reference whatsoever is made to their eternal fate. The N.T. scriptures you mentioned refer to Jesus' words, referring to children, that "the kingdom of heaven is made up of such as these." The verses in Psalms, Proverbs, and I Cor. are completely irrelevant. Anyway, the "age of accountability" relating to salvation vs. damnation is a human doctrinal contrivance--as is the doctrine of the Rapture, one which many Christians do not believe, by the way.

Also, in most denominations, only the minister performs baptisms. "

Tpaine wrote on Oct 30, 2009 4:21 PM:

" Collatine:
I have read the actual works of Enlightenment thinkers in depth as well as the founding fathers. If you are still trying to claim that the important founding fathers were Christian, I have to respectfully disagree. Nothing in the writings or history of Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Adams, Madison, Monroe point toward them basing the Constitution on Christianity - quite the opposite actually.

Are you trying to claim the enlightenment thinkers were Atheist?
Quite the contraty, again they were mostly Deist, meaning they believed in a supreme being, but not Christianity. Voltaire actually states that he believes in a Supreme Being because he uses reason.
"What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason."

What was your earlier point, anyway? I've forgetten by this point. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 30, 2009 5:00 PM:

" CrowWoman, do you believe in a God who would condemn little children to an eternal hell? I dont! I also agree its a hard thing to prove by Scripture, but I think most denominations accept that young children will be included in Gods Eternal Kingdom.

A passage J.R. could have also included was about when King Davids son died (the son of Davids sin with Bathsheba) and David said,

2 Samuel 12:23 (NKJV)
But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David indicated by these words he knew where his son was and that he would eventually go to him. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 30, 2009 5:17 PM:

" The only thing I would point out NeoCon is that Buddhists, and Taoists, and Hindus, and many Greek Philosophers discovered the concept of love and respect for each other and those that are different long before it appeared in your Chronology. The oldest formulation I have found is from Pittacus who lived
from 640-568 BCE...
---------------

You try Sue...and I appreciate you for that... but my the Greeks, Buddha, Pittacus, and whom ever else you cited...well they all fit on my timeline....just later.

'Creation' or the time God revealed himself to Adam and Eve was about 4000 AD.

The Jewish calendar starts at 3761 BCE.

Moses and the commandments 1460 BCE.

Council of Nicaea was 325 AD.

The Greeks didn't show up until 1100 BCE and didn't start writing a lot of stuff down until later.

Pittacus did not show up until 640 BCE.

Daoism didn't show up 'til 600 BCE.

Buddha did not show up until 565 BCE.

So Sue, ya think maybe all their enlightened thought might of come from the Jews via God? "

CrowWoman wrote on Oct 30, 2009 7:13 PM:

" A lot of good discussion going on here the past few days....

No, Jon, I don't believe God would condemn little children to hell--though certain Calvinistic Christians do believe that. J.R. often claims that his beliefs come straight from Holy Scripture. Now and then, I like to point out that they don't, that his beliefs are as much based on his faith tradition as anyone else's. The 2 Samuel passage is a good one but still does not specify where David's son has gone.

NeoCon, I agree with your statement that religion can "pigeon-hole" the concept of God. I disagree with several of my church's doctrinal positions, but enjoy worshiping with the people there and having the opportunities for service that the church provides. Spiritually and politically, I am too liberal for conservatives and too conservative for liberals. :) "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Oct 30, 2009 10:15 PM:

" CrowWoman said, "The 2 Samuel passage is a good one but still does not specify where David's son has gone."

Yeah that's right that is why I said it is hard to prove by Scripture, but then on the other hand I feel pretty sure I know where David is and where he knew he was going. God said that David is a man after my own heart and David did repent and seek forgiveness. David is an example of God's grace even though he did not live in the church age or what many call the age of grace that we live in but God is the judge not us. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 31, 2009 8:54 AM:

" No NeoCon because the Jews didn't start writing anything down at the dawn of creation either. The record we have of the Jews the "J" source, the "E" source and the "P" source are dated roughly from the ninth, eith and sixth centuries B.C.E. Those documents don't survive. The King James Version was put together in 1611. The references to the Golden Rule don't appear in the Bible until Tobit 4:15 which was written in the 4th or 3rd Century or Sirach 31:15 written or completed 180 BCE. Pittacus lived from 640-568. So who stole what from whom? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Oct 31, 2009 8:25 PM:

" The record we have of the Jews the "J" source, the "E" source and the "P" source are dated roughly from the ninth, eith and sixth centuries B.C.E. Those documents don't survive.
__________________

Once again you confound me with your responses. Your response here is tangential to the premise of your orginal argument and my response...I sense that you are an 'abstract random' in your thinking processes...

I'll remind you that the premise of your argument was 'Greek Philosophers discovered the concept of love and respect' and 'The oldest formulation I have found is from Pittacus 640-568 BCE'

My response was that persons in the bible pre-dated Pittacus and the other folks you cited. And it's safe to say that much of the Hebrew religion was kept by word of mouth...and keeping track of who your father's father was, was kept by word of mouth process.

The Bible makes note of these people, citing the lineage of Adam virtually all the way to Christ, regardless of who kept track of it and when it was written down.

I made the oblique reference to the Greeks because they were so prolific with their writings, writings that reflect interactions with various cultures then, and you chose that oblique reference to try to further your argument.

As for your argument...

1) Maybe the J, E, and P means something to you after you scoured the net to develop a response to my post...but I have no idea what you are talking about...

2) As for your reference to a book of the apocryphal bible, so what...?

And I could respond that Neanderthals, hominid species that lived when Cro-magnon (Homo sapien) first appeared, scribbled on cave walls depictions of love and respect... but so what? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 1, 2009 2:13 PM:

" Moses was not a Jew, he was not present at creation but he wrote the creation account in the Pentateuch from imformation he received directly from God. See Numbers 12:6-8 "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 1, 2009 9:43 PM:

" "And I could respond that Neanderthals, hominid species that lived when Cro-magnon (Homo sapien) first appeared, scribbled on cave walls depictions of love and respect... but so what? "

And they also scribbled images of dinosaurs "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 2, 2009 5:26 AM:

" And they also scribbled images of dinosaurs "

Perhaps they discovered some bones of those dinosaurs, you know the ones that are estimated to be millions of years old by real scientists, not some no nothing Bible thumping zealots like yourself, jon. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:46 AM:

" NeoCon I said the earliest written form of the "Golden Rule" that I have found was Pittacus and I pointed out when the earliest form in the Bible was written. Those "Greeks" had just as long and marvelous a history and creation story as the Hebrews. The Hebrews by the way weren't the first people on this planet. There were others here before they arrived. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 2, 2009 10:42 AM:

" father bob you are either very ignorant or very deceitful.
Everyone knows there are ancient drawings and ancient artifacts of dinosaurs. How did they know what dinosaurs looked like? "

father bob wrote on Nov 2, 2009 12:45 PM:

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 2, 2009 10:42 AM:
" father bob you are either very ignorant or very deceitful.
Everyone knows there are ancient drawings and ancient artifacts of dinosaurs. How did they know what dinosaurs looked like? """""

there may be artifacts, but you can't team up your homespun story about ancient drawings of dinosaurs with fact.

fact is, they get their information from fossils that are MILLIONS of years old. with scientific data they can reconstruct what they think the amphibians looked like. you need to tend to your "burning bushes" and forget about trying to interpret science through the bible. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 2, 2009 2:43 PM:

" fact is, they get their information from fossils that are MILLIONS of years old. with scientific data they can reconstruct what they think the amphibians looked like. you need to tend to your "burning bushes" and forget about trying to interpret science through the bible. "

Ouch! A cyber wedgie for preacher jon... "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:22 PM:

" Now boys and girls I am Mr. Green and this is science class.
I want you to know that everything I will teach you will be science and fact.
Today we are learning about Neanderthal man and dinosaurs.
Now you must not question anything I tell you because it is all very scientific.
You probably have called these men cavemen because they usually lived in caves.
We know they lived in caves because ashes of fires and tools and many drawings of things in their life have been found scratched on the walls of caves.
Some of the drawings are very good representations of dinosaurs.
Now we know for a fact that dinosaurs became extinct millions of years before these cavemen lived so these cavemen used some very scientific data to reconstruct dinosaur fossils to know what these dinosaurs would have looked like.

Eddie: Mr. Green Mr. Green
Yes Eddie what is it?

Eddie: Were the cavemen scientists?

Mr. Green: Now Eddie we must not ask silly questions.

Billy: Mr. Green how do we know that the dinosaurs are millions and millions of years old?

Mr. Green: Because Billy we know how old the rock layers are that we find the dinosaur fossils in.

Billy: Oh I see thats really neat! Oh ahh Mr. Green how do we know how old the rock layers are?

Mr. Green: Billy we know how old the rock layers are by the age of the fossils we find in them.

Billy: But, but Mr. Green isnt that called circular reasoning or something?

Mr. Green: Billy! if you keep disturbing this class I am going to send you to the principle!

Eddie: Mr. Green are you a scientist?

Mr. Green: I have read about some scientists and I have been taught by some very smart teachers that have read a lot of books written by scientists and I know that they have proved these things to all be true.

Billy: Mr. Green is circular reasoning scientific?

Mr. Green: Billy why cant you be like Suzy? Suzy never questions me or asks any question she just knows that everything I tell her is scientific truth and she knows there is lots of evidence for it just like I tell her. Now Billy you go directly to the principles office because you are disrupting this class.

Little Harry: Oh Suzy will you help me I just dont know how to answer the questions on the test.

Suzy: Sure Harry its allright you dont have to know why you just believe what I tell you. You dont even need to answer the questions Ill answer for you.

Bobby: Suzy will you help me too I just cant understand what scientific data is, but I know the cavemen used scientific data to draw the dinosaurs because Mr. Green told me so.

Mr. Green alright now boys and girls tomorrow we will learn about how you came from pond scum and just so amazingly by chance and billions of years became the smart little boys and girls you are. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:39 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta you know the Ten Commandments say you should not "bear false witness". AND you know that God doesn't smile upon those that do. So why do you do it? Why do you keep spreading misinformation and outright lies? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 2, 2009 11:41 PM:

" father bob wrote on Oct 30, 2009 12:46 PM:
" jrhendren wrote on Oct 29, 2009 11:56 PM:
"In Catholicism the priest is the only one who can forgive sins, and who gives him the power? A man, the Pope, not Christ. Maybe you and Susan should take your own advise and "try to find a topic you know something about." """""

yadda yadda yadda......you haven't a clue nor the ability to grasp the concept. what a total waste of time it is to converse with your deficient mental capacity. "

I would agree it is a waste of time to converse with you. Since it is you who does not know what yo are speaking of. To bad you never check what you are saying. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 2, 2009 11:56 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 30, 2009 2:41 PM:
" Mr. Hendren if Baptisms can be performed by anybody why then I could baptise myself or have a neighbor do it?

First if your neighbor is a baptized believer themselves they could baptize you. Second, how could you baptize yourself when you have not gone through salvation, ie. the forgiveness of your sins, and the gift of the Holy Spirit?
________________________________________

In fact we could just say that we did and who would be the wiser? You cheapen the meaning of the concept.

NO that would be you. If you do not believe and get baptized your are just getting wet. That is why you can not do one without the other.
________________________________________

Just like all other areas of doctrine Mr. Hendren Christians have a great variety of beliefs about communion (who can and can not partake as well as who consecrates it and distrributes it), baptism, the interpretation of passages.

That I agree. Though it does not mean all are right. That is to say Satan is the father of confusion. He tries his best to get Christian because he already has the world.
________________________________________

James was Jesus successor not Paul. The church founded by Paul is the usurper. You really do need to learn about Biblical history. Face it you are in a very small minority of Christian churches and not at all like the original Christian church. "

You are the one who needs a lesson. Lincoln Christian College offers some very nice on-line classes you could take. Peter was Jesus' successor to the Jews, though James was basically the minister of the first organized, church in Jerusalem. Peter and John preached to the Jews first. Paul was the preacher to the Gentiles, the non-Jew. He later butted heads with Peter showing him his wrongness. Read Acts Of The Apostles. Many of the Christian Churches today are indeed like that of the original Christian Church, they just aren't extreme enough for the media.
________________________________________

shumphreys wrote on Oct 30, 2009 2:52 PM:
" Wait a minute Mr. Hendren are you saying that part of Matthew is not the word of God? ("This verse does not even speak of the Word be Gods")But then you quote 2 Timothy 3:16 (All scripture is God-breathed....) Me thinks you are a bit confused "shi- up a creek"

Not at all, it is once again trying to twist what I said. Like you do so often since you know your wrong. I pointed out that you were quoting a verse that did not go with what you were trying to make it say. Nice try but no cigar.
________________________________________

"if Matthew 25:31... isn't the "Word of God" then what is? How can you possibly claim that any other part is? "

Never said it was not the word of God, what I said was it was not talking about it speaking as you were trying to make it speak. Again nice try. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 12:00 AM:

" The Question wrote on Oct 30, 2009 3:15 PM:
" So you're rejecting one of the synoptic gospels, JR? My, you do have a novel view of "Christianity," don't you? "

Nope, the gospels are the gospels. You and your "friend" are the ones twisting to make people say what they are not. The "synoptic gospels" as the are referred are still, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. However, their are four gospels of Christ, can't leave out John. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 12:10 AM:

" CrowWoman wrote on Oct 30, 2009 4:06 PM:
" J.R. wrote, "Okay, Isaiah 7:16, Deuteronomy 1:39, 1 Corinthians 4:5, Proverbs 22:6, Ephesians 6:4, Matthew 19:14, Psalms 8:2, and Luke 18:17 to name a few. Though the words "age of accountability" are not said it is very much there. Just as the word "rapture" is not in the Scriptures the definition is. All one has to do is a little research and stop assuming."

The O.T. verses you listed refer only to children eventually being able to discern good vs. evil. No reference whatsoever is made to their eternal fate. The N.T. scriptures you mentioned refer to Jesus' words, referring to children, that "the kingdom of heaven is made up of such as these." The verses in Psalms, Proverbs, and I Cor. are completely irrelevant. Anyway, the "age of accountability" relating to salvation vs. damnation is a human doctrinal contrivance--as is the doctrine of the Rapture, one which many Christians do not believe, by the way.

So when the Scriptures clearly point to a defined occurrence such as "the age of accountability", and the rapture, if it does not say the word/words then it is not real. So you do not have faith, and lie when you say, "No, Jon, I don't believe God would condemn little children to hell." You are saying they are with sin, and if they did not come to Christ they die in Hell, or do you just not believe in Hell either? As for the concept of the rapture read Matthew 24:30-31,40-41 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
________________________________________

Also, in most denominations, only the minister performs baptisms. "

Though you are wrong, so? The Scriptures so not say only the minister can baptize, and in fact shows just the opposite. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 12:14 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 31, 2009 8:54 AM:
" No NeoCon because the Jews didn't start writing anything down at the dawn of creation either. The record we have of the Jews the "J" source, the "E" source and the "P" source are dated roughly from the ninth, eith and sixth centuries B.C.E. Those documents don't survive. The King James Version was put together in 1611. The references to the Golden Rule don't appear in the Bible until Tobit 4:15 which was written in the 4th or 3rd Century or Sirach 31:15 written or completed 180 BCE. Pittacus lived from 640-568. So who stole what from whom? "

Susan you know that the KJV of the Bible is not the original version right? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 12:15 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:46 AM:
"The Hebrews by the way weren't the first people on this planet. There were others here before they arrived. "

That is your religious belief. Which is fine you have the right to believe that if you wish. By the way, how do you know you are right, if not by faith in your beliefs? Are you really that old? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 12:18 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 2, 2009 5:26 AM:
" And they also scribbled images of dinosaurs "

Perhaps they discovered some bones of those dinosaurs, you know the ones that are estimated to be millions of years old by real scientists, not some no nothing Bible thumping zealots like yourself, jon. "

I take offense to that Harry. You know for every scientist that says they are millions of years old, there is one who says they are not. They both even have the same degree and everything. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 12:20 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 2, 2009 7:39 PM:
" Mr. Vanatta you know the Ten Commandments say you should not "bear false witness". AND you know that God doesn't smile upon those that do. So why do you do it? Why do you keep spreading misinformation and outright lies? "

WARNING ONCE AGAIN POT CALLING KETTLE BLACK AGAIN!!!! "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 6:34 AM:

" I take offense to that Harry. You know for every scientist that says they are millions of years old, there is one who says they are not. They both even have the same degree and everything. "

No, I don't know that. So you're saying that there are a equal number of scientists on both sides, jr?
I would challenge that statement. And your source for that is?

I'm not saying there are no scientists that believe that, but to say the number is equal seems a bit far out to me.

I would argue that the majority of those in the field of science support the idea that the earth is millions of years old.

Are you also saying that you're buying into Vanatta's claim that the earth is only 6000 years old, jr? Do really buy the idea that man and dinosaurs coexisted at the same time?

Using your words, I would say that I thought you were smarter than that, jr. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 7:27 AM:

" Mr. Hendtren human history isn't religious belief. The Hebrews weren't the first people on this planet. The "Garden of Eden" wasn't in Palestine, at least if you mean the place where the first people appeared as in came out of the trees/evolved into humans. The Bible is a beautiful book but it isn't scientific or historical fact nor does it ever pretend to be. You really should learn about it and try reading it sometime. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 7:37 AM:

" Mr. Hendren if you claim that you Love God or Fear God and that God created everything than why do you dishonor God by claiming that he couldn't possibly be intelligent enough to create such a wonderful concept of evolution and to create such a great diversity of religious beliefs to match the great diversity of people he created? You dishonor your religion and your God with your lies and misinformation and you harm young people and those seeking spiritual guidance by holding them back, denying them the information they need to be successful and by feeding their fears and hate. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 7:49 AM:

" Finally we agree on something Mr. Hendren. You said, "That I agree. Though it does not mean all are right. That is to say Satan is the father of confusion. He tries his best to get Christian because he already has the world." Satan has certainly sunk his hooks into you, even getting you to disrespect God by denying his intelligence and abilities, by taking a work by man over his works. For shame for shame. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 3, 2009 8:19 AM:

" Ms. Humphreys, you are losing the debate on evolution verses creationism and the Truth of Gods Word because what you are trying to defend is undefendable. Wiser evolutionists know this and refuse to debate. I posted earlier that the arrogant Richard Dawkins refuses to debate Ray Comfort even though Mr. Comfort offered to pay him. Consider the fact that even Harry P is wise enough to know not to try to defend the defunct theory. You have much more education than I and yet you cannot effectively debate even me. That is not your fault; it is because evolution is a loser for everyone. Your fault is you do not have the wisdom to recognize that. You will always lose and the sad part is in the end you will lose everything. You have an abundance of knowledge but very little wisdom. Denying the existence of an all-knowing Creator then using his Word in your arguments is counterproductive. I feel very sorry for you. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 9:23 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta I can't lose when I tell the truth. Only those who don't tell the truth are losers. I don't debate you Mr. Vanatta I just point out the errors of your statements and the TRUTH about the Bible. Don't blame me for all the errors and contradictions. I didn't write it. But I still think it is a good book and well worth reading even if you don't. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 10:14 AM:

" Oh and Mr. Vanatta the reason Dawkins refuses to debate Mr. Comfort is because he has bigger fish to fry and Mr. Comfort is a very small fish just as you are a very small fish. Now I dont mind spending my time on very small fish, for as Jesus said just as you did it to one of the least of these and you and Mr. Hendren are among the least of these. If I can help you escape from the fear and hate spawned by your religion (the snare of the devil Mr. Hendren mentions) then all your abuse is worth it. Just as Paul said,(and I paraphrase here) those that are persecuted for the TRUTH are among those that are greatest blessed. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 10:18 AM:

" AND what is the TRUTH Mr. Vanatta, it is quite simple and taught by Buddha, and Lao Tzu and Jesus and Mohammed. It doesn't matter what religion you follow or whether you follow any, in the end all that matters are your day to day actions towards your fellow man (all of them, especially those that are different from you) and the rest of creation (plants, animals, resources). You can't respect humans if you trash the planet they depend on for their survival. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:03 AM:

" The African and Arabian plates meet in the remote Afar desert of Northern Ethiopia and have been spreading apart in a rifting process at a speed of less than 1 inch per year for the past 30 million years. This rifting formed the 186-mile Afar depression and the Red Sea. The thinking is that the Red Sea will eventually pour into the new sea in a million years or so. The new ocean would connect to the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden, an arm of the Arabian Sea between Yemen on the Arabian Peninsula and Somalia in eastern Africa.
Fox news-

30 million years? How can that be?

Note the source, you're beloved fair and balanced network, Jon. You had better fire off a e-mail to them. LOL! "

CrowWoman wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:58 AM:

" Ah, J.R., so nice to know you're thinking about old CrowWoman while's she's deep in sleep, trying to think of ways to outwit her! Not in your lifetime!

You're playing a sort of "fill in the blanks" with the O.T. verses that talk about children learning to distinguish between right vs. wrong, and the N.T. verse about Jesus saying Let the little children come to me, etc. If the age of accountability doctrine were as clear as you seem to think it is, all Christians would believe in it. But they don't.

Still, it seems clear that the idea is based on Jewish tradition, the Bar-mitzvah and all that. If something needed to be done to prevent young children from going to hell after death, I am sure Jesus would have told his followers about it.

The rapture, same "fill in the blanks" around a few select verses. Although it may happen and is certainly a comforting doctrine, many--if not most--Christians do not believe in it.

But argue on, J.R. I truly enjoy reading some of the stuff you and Jon come up with. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 3, 2009 3:26 PM:

" Jon:"Everyone knows there are ancient drawings and ancient artifacts of dinosaurs. How did they know what dinosaurs looked like? "

Jon, maybe they were just poor artists
and someone THOUGHT they looked like
dinosaurs.
ALL scientists know by superimposition that No human ever saw a dinosaur.

When I came back, I never dreamed that this topic was still ALIVE. What a string of nonsense I found. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 3, 2009 3:30 PM:

" OK. So there are those among us that thing the Bible is inerrant, that we should bow down and follow it etc. etc. -- but HOW MANY REALLY DO??
How many of you have actually followed Deuteronomy 22:
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father ...then shall his father and his mother lay hands on him and bring him unto the elders ....and all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he may die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you". "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 3, 2009 3:38 PM:

" jhendron:"As for the concept of the rapture read Matthew 24:30-31..."

I just did. I find, "Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains."

Charleston doesn't seem to be mentioned, so I think we will be OK. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 3, 2009 6:15 PM:

" shumphreys said,"and the rest of creation (plants, animals, resources)"

I was just wondering Ms. Humphreys, why do you call it the creation? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:41 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 3, 2009 6:34 AM:
" I take offense to that Harry. You know for every scientist that says they are millions of years old, there is one who says they are not. They both even have the same degree and everything. "

No, I don't know that. So you're saying that there are a equal number of scientists on both sides, jr?
I would challenge that statement. And your source for that is?

Though no one else cites their source, The Scientific Case for Creation Henry Morris and Scientific Creationism also by Henry Morris both of which were used in my College courses.
________________________________________

I'm not saying there are no scientists that believe that, but to say the number is equal seems a bit far out to me.

I will concede that they may not be equal numbers, but they are not as slanted as perceived.
________________________________________

I would argue that the majority of those in the field of science support the idea that the earth is millions of years old.

Are you also saying that you're buying into Vanatta's claim that the earth is only 6000 years old, jr? Do really buy the idea that man and dinosaurs coexisted at the same time?

Actually as one who believe that not only is the earth young, but that the evidence points to it, I do not go so far as to put an exact date. The evidence points to the earth being between 6,000 and 10,000 years old. As for man and dinosaurs the Bible would point that way.
"Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron." - Job 40:15-18

"Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook?" - Job 41:1-2, also Isaiah 27:1 speaks of the Leviathan

Actually all of Job 41 speaks of the enormous beast.
________________________________________

Using your words, I would say that I thought you were smarter than that, jr. "

Thank what you want but the truth is using the scientific methods of research and the debunking of such thinks as Carbon-14 dating. Their evidence of a young Earth. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:52 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 7:27 AM:
" Mr. Hendtren human history isn't religious belief. The Hebrews weren't the first people on this planet. The "Garden of Eden" wasn't in Palestine, at least if you mean the place where the first people appeared as in came out of the trees/evolved into humans.

No I mean the truth Eden of the Bible, and you are right it was not in Palestine. That was given later in time. You are also right in that human history is not a religion. Nice to see your catching on.
________________________________________

The Bible is a beautiful book but it isn't scientific or historical fact nor does it ever pretend to be. You really should learn about it and try reading it sometime. "

Actually it is quite historical and scientific. You are the one who should read it, not Google what you are looking for, as you admitted to doing. Their are places in the Scriptures that were never thought to have existed, except in Scripture, and then later found. The Bible speaks of real, yet little known people that held power positions. To say it has no historical value is to say that all other books of that era have no value to history. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 4, 2009 12:03 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 7:37 AM:
" Mr. Hendren if you claim that you Love God or Fear God and that God created everything than why do you dishonor God by claiming that he couldn't possibly be intelligent enough to create such a wonderful concept of evolution..."

Problem is it is not a wonderful concept, and to claim he created evolution and did not create man himself is dishonoring God. I both Love God and Fear God, a concept I am afraid you can not fathom. Which is obvious with your thinking taking creation from him is honoring him.
________________________________________

"...and to create such a great diversity of religious beliefs to match the great diversity of people he created?"

Again you dishonor him with your question. Something I am sure you meant to do. God did not create diversity of religious beliefs, since again he is not a God of confusion. That would be Satan and his people, who try and take away from God and his glory. You should know that.
________________________________________

"You dishonor your religion and your God with your lies and misinformation and you harm young people and those seeking spiritual guidance by holding them back, denying them the information they need to be successful and by feeding their fears and hate. "

There we go I was waiting for that. Every time you start to lose you go back to your, "feeding their fears and hate". You are so predictable. I speak from the Scriptures, it is you who use lies and misinformation. Should we go to where you say all men who act feminine are going to go to Hell? Your type of enlightenment is what is spreading hate and fear. Your hate and fear of anyone who has a belief differing from you. It is me who has said you have the right to believe as you wish, and you who stoops to name calling and false accusations.
________________________________________

shumphreys wrote on Nov 3, 2009 7:49 AM:
" Finally we agree on something Mr. Hendren. You said, "That I agree. Though it does not mean all are right. That is to say Satan is the father of confusion. He tries his best to get Christian because he already has the world." Satan has certainly sunk his hooks into you, even getting you to disrespect God by denying his intelligence and abilities, by taking a work by man over his works. For shame for shame. "

As I just stated, "It is me who has said you have the right to believe as you wish, and you who stoops to name calling and false accusations." Thank you for discrediting yourself for me. I have never denied God's intelligence that would be you. You are the one saying he had to let evolution make us because he couldn't do it. Though you do not believe in him, you mock him. Trying to use him against his people. Shame on you! "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 4, 2009 12:16 AM:

" CrowWoman wrote on Nov 3, 2009 11:58 AM:
" Ah, J.R., so nice to know you're thinking about old CrowWoman while's she's deep in sleep, trying to think of ways to outwit her! Not in your lifetime!

Actually there was more to that post, though some seems to have not posted. No matter, I do not try to outwit you it just happens.
________________________________________

You're playing a sort of "fill in the blanks" with the O.T. verses that talk about children learning to distinguish between right vs. wrong, and the N.T. verse about Jesus saying Let the little children come to me, etc. If the age of accountability doctrine were as clear as you seem to think it is, all Christians would believe in it. But they don't.

So then you do believe children go to Hell. Wow, how do you sleep at night? The truth is clear, and most do believe in just that. It is there, just as some do not believe that you must be Baptized in the forgiveness of sins and receiving of the Holy Spirit. It is clearly there is Scripture. Some believe, like you and Susan, that you are saved by works, but the Scriptures clearly state that is not true.
________________________________________

Still, it seems clear that the idea is based on Jewish tradition, the Bar-mitzvah and all that. If something needed to be done to prevent young children from going to hell after death, I am sure Jesus would have told his followers about it.

Correct, except your idea that it is based on a Jewish tradition, Jesus did not tell them to preform some act, because they were innocent. Now your getting it.
________________________________________

The rapture, same "fill in the blanks" around a few select verses. Although it may happen and is certainly a comforting doctrine, many--if not most--Christians do not believe in it.

Actually, most religions, including the largest Christian denominations do believe in a "rapture". Mainly because it is defined in the Scriptures. In fact, the majority of the churches that do not believe in the "rapture" do not believe in Jesus' Godliness. Therefore, they kind of go hand in hand.
________________________________________

But argue on, J.R. I truly enjoy reading some of the stuff you and Jon come up with. "

I am glad you do, and I pray that the Lord opens your eyes to the truth someday. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 4, 2009 12:28 AM:

" Cognitus wrote on Nov 3, 2009 3:38 PM:
" jhendron:"As for the concept of the rapture read Matthew 24:30-31..."

I just did. I find, "Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains."

Charleston doesn't seem to be mentioned, so I think we will be OK. "

First do you have a personal problem with me? Is that why you can not seem to get my name correct? I show you respect how about the same.

That being said, you are quoting Matthew 24:16, not Matthew 24:30-31. Verse 16 is talking about something entirely different.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matthew 24:30-31 "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:43 AM:

" Shame on you Mr. Hendren for using God against HIS people, ALL of them: Hindus, and Jews, Buddhists and Baptists, Catholics and Christians, Methodists, Mormons and Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics, Homosexuals and Heterosexuals. ALL are "Gods" people Mr. Hendren. All religions and no religion are "Gods" religion. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:52 AM:

" Lets see about those "Scientific" facts in the Bible Mr. Hendren. John 12:24 "except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die". Seeds that sprout aren't dead they are living organisms. Matthew 13:31-32 "The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed...is the smallest of all seeds." Only it isn't. John 12:21 "which was of Bethsaida of Galilee" only Bethsaida was in the province of Gaulontinis, not the province of Galilee.Then there are the dimensions of ark in Genesis, all the animals wouldn't have fit. 1 Kings7:23 the baptismal font (or whatever you want to call it) in the temple, Pi wouldn't be Pi if those dimensions were right. Leviticus 11:13-19 refers to bats as fowl, only they are mammals. He calls any fowl that "creep, going on all four..." there aren't any such birds. 11:6 "the hare that cheweth the cud" only hares don't chew the cud. A great scientific text Mr. Hendren. Surely if God were all wise he wouldn't have made such foolish errors. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 4, 2009 11:15 AM:

" Ms, Humphreys you don't have anything with your list of discrepancies of the Bible. You only googled that list like anyone can do and plenty of people like you are stretching to try to discredit the Bible. Most of them copy each other because many sites have the same list. No one knows for sure where Bethsaida was however it is known the shores of Lake Galilee have receded since Jesus ministry on earth in some places as much as 2 miles. Bethsaida could have been on the shore of Lake Galilee. And by the way that is most likely not Gaulontinis but Gaul Ontinis. No one knows if that was the location of Bethsaida. There may have been more than one Bethsaida. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:36 PM:

" I don't discredit the Bible Mr. Vanatta I accept it for what it is. Of course I googled Biblical Errors I suggested that others do the same in a previous post. You don't think I'd spend all my time searching for discrepancies when Biblical scholars have already done the research for me. There could have been more than one Bethsaida just as there can be more than one translation of the Bible and more than one interpretation of what the Bible means and much more than one error and contradiction in the Bible. It is a great book Mr. Vanatta and well worth reading, thoughtfully. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 4, 2009 10:38 PM:

" shumphreys, "" I don't discredit the Bible Mr. Vanatta I accept it for what it is."
Ms. Humphreys what you think of the Bible IS a discredit to the Bible.
It is your favorite book to quote from but only with evil intentions.
You don't understand it but you try to use it for your malicious purposes.

It is the guide for my life faith and hope. It has stood the test of time. There are some translation errors but the original manuscripts are inerrant because they are God breathed and God protected and if this were not true it would have been destroyed centuries ago. Fulfilled prophecies of the Bible prove its authenticity. The Word of God will remain forever.

Ms. Humphreys you do not understand that this world of wars, suffering, disease, hunger, and people dying is NOT the world that Jesus created. Until you understand that you will not understand anything. Jesus has always existed with God and as God. In the beginning Jesus the Word already existed. All things were created by Him and for Him.

Your belief in evolution is a faith, unsubstantiated, worthless; there is no written word like the Bible to authenticate it. Everything that has ever been written about evolution has changed again and again it is an accumulation of ever-changing lies. It has no evidence that supports it and common sense tells us it is impossible. It is a hopeless religion of arrogance and censorship with no benefits. Nothing to gain by worshipping the god of evolution except a hopeless eternity. There is nothing about faith in evolution that pleases God. To lead young people into it is an atrocity you will face judgment for and yet is seems to be the goal of your life to destroy other lives the way evolution has and is doing now.

God speaking to the son:
But to his Son he says,
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
Your royal power is expressed in righteousness.
You love what is right and hate what is wrong.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.
And,
Lord, in the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Even they will perish, but you remain forever. Hebrews 1 "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 4, 2009 11:36 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:43 AM:
" Shame on you Mr. Hendren for using God against HIS people, ALL of them: Hindus, and Jews, Buddhists and Baptists, Catholics and Christians, Methodists, Mormons and Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics, Homosexuals and Heterosexuals. ALL are "Gods" people Mr. Hendren. All religions and no religion are "Gods" religion. "

I agree all people are God's people, but all religions are not God's religions. Problem is since you believe in nothing, then you can not grasp the concept of only One God. Some of the "religions" you quote are do not even believe in God. God loves all, and has given an easy way to him. What you do not like is that there is only one way. Try doing research, and we all know research to you is Google, the differing "religions" and you will see huge differences. You can also keep doing your usual when losing an argument. Either change the topic, or start trying to make others look small. Unfortunately it's your credibility that shrinks with every post. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 5, 2009 12:40 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:52 AM:
" Lets see about those "Scientific" facts in the Bible Mr. Hendren. John 12:24 "except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die". Seeds that sprout aren't dead they are living organisms.

It's called a allegory, which I thought you would know since you have claimed you were big in English, never mind though. The quote from Christ is accurate in the allegorical since. Many considerate it a form of "death" when a plant looses its seed. The seed dies from its original plant and becomes a new plant. Maybe before you read the Bible again, or for the first time, you should take a good English class.
________________________________________

Matthew 13:31-32 "The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed...is the smallest of all seeds." Only it isn't.

*Notice how she says "It isn't, but does not cite what is.

The mustard seed, actually the black mustard seed would have been the smallest seed farmers in that area would have planted and known about. If Christ would have spoken of the Orchids that have smaller seeds, the people would not have known what he was talking about. Oh the smallest is the "Gomesa crispa", I looked it up for you. Truth remains still accurate, in its context.
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John 12:21 "which was of Bethsaida of Galilee" only Bethsaida was in the province of Gaulontinis, not the province of Galilee.

You might want to do more "Googling" on that one. It has been found.

The area of BethSaida is located at the delta of the upper Jordan river, when it enters to the sea of Galilee. It is east located 4KM northeast to Capernaum. This area has many ancient sites due to its strategic place: a crossing of the ancient trade route, a flow of water, the fish and game that can be found around the site, and the fertile soil in the area. There are many scattered ruined villages at the area, and it was not clear which one of them is the village that Jesus has visited and performed miracles. According to recent excavations, Khirbet et-Tel ("the Tell") is such candidate for that village.
There are even pictures, http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/Bethsaida.html,not to mention the historical writings of Flavius Josephus speaking of just such a place.
________________________________________

Then there are the dimensions of ark in Genesis, all the animals wouldn't have fit.

Actually if you look at what the Scriptures say and not what you want them to say they would.
"This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks." - Genesis 6:15-16 and
"You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them." - Genesis 6:19-21

He did not take every animal, but two of every kind. Two dogs, two elephants, and so on. N
Next you have the fact that animals such as sea mammals, mollusks, fish, and other sea dwelling creatures would not have had to be on the ark. When you eliminate those there would only have to be room for 35,000 individual animals according to most of which are not that large. The dinosaurs would not have been on the ark, hence the cataclysmic effect needed to create their fossils. There was plenty of room. Research instead of using "Google" until you find someone to agree with you.
________________________________________

1 Kings 7:23 the baptismal font (or whatever you want to call it) in the temple, Pi wouldn't be Pi if those dimensions were right.

First lets see what the verse says:
"He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it." - 1 Kings 7:23

What are those words there? Lets see "circular in shape". Also it figures to 3, with the previous measurements. Now since Pi is never ending, their is no way to get an exact, just we use 3.14 now. Some go farther since they know Pi farther. When you take both into effect the verse is still accurate.
________________________________________

Leviticus 11:13-19 refers to bats as fowl, only they are mammals. He calls any fowl that "creep, going on all four..." there aren't any such birds.

Yes, so? You are trying to use a modern classification system to the past? At that time they very well could have been considered as a bird. Talk about stretching to make a point, that is what you are doing, as you have with all your so called "fouls of the Scriptures". Also the word used in the Hebrew here for birds is actually the word for, ready for this, "flying creatures". Which is exactly what a bat is. Once again as I have told you before go back to the original languages. Oh wait that would take you making an effort.
________________________________________

"11:6 "the hare that cheweth the cud" only hares don't chew the cud."

Lets look at the original language. In the Hebrew "cud" is gerah, meaning "scraping the throat" or partially eaten food. Now since hares do what is called "refection" which is to basically eat partially digested food in dung over again. When compared to what we know of cattle "chewing the cud" or partially digested food, they fit quite well. From the original language, which the word only appears these times in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and from observation we see complete accuracy again.
________________________________________

A great scientific text Mr. Hendren.
Surely if God were all wise he wouldn't have made such foolish errors. "

He made no such errors that would be you again.
Next? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 5, 2009 12:43 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 4, 2009 7:36 PM:
" I don't discredit the Bible Mr. Vanatta I accept it for what it is. Of course I googled Biblical Errors I suggested that others do the same in a previous post. You don't think I'd spend all my time searching for discrepancies when Biblical scholars have already done the research for me.

This is Susan admitting that she does no research except looking to find someone who agrees with her.
________________________________________

There could have been more than one Bethsaida just as there can be more than one translation of the Bible and more than one interpretation of what the Bible means and much more than one error and contradiction in the Bible. It is a great book Mr. Vanatta and well worth reading, thoughtfully. "

Then why not read it, instead of letting others do your work for you? As for your inaccuracies they have all been shown wrong again. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:07 AM:

" Mr. Hendren I have already told you that when I do research I always cross check and look for other points of view about a topic. That means that I do pull out my Bible and look up the passages. AND I do read viewpoints from Christian oriented groups. Why that is how I have found confirmation of some of the greatest errors in the Bible. Remember how I said the "gracethrufaith.com" website discredited the "reed sea" versus the "red sea" by stating that reeds only grow in fresh water. The common reed Phragmites grows in all but highly alkaline water. It is the common reed of salt marshes and ditches here in Illinois. You should do a little research Mr. Hendren your lack of education is apalling. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:11 AM:

" We agree again on something Mr. Hendren, you said God "made no such errors" in reference to all the errors in the Bible. AND I agree because God did not write or even dictate the Bible. The Bible is the work of men claiming divine inspiration. AND MEN (as in male humans, not female humans) as we know are quite fallible. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:16 AM:

" Sorry Mr. Hendren about your other attempts to brush aside the errors. Even back then some humans knew the difference between mamals and birds. If God is all knowing even he would have known the differencee, especially if he created everything. Now if he wasn't responsible for creating everything and isn't all knowing and all perfect than it makes absolute sense that even he wouldn't know the difference. Bats and birds that walk on all fours. You will have to do better than that Mr. Hendren. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:18 AM:

" AND Mr. Hendren the circumference of that "molten sea" would have come out to 31.4 cubits not 30. Any ancient architect that had made that big of an error wouldn't have been worth his salt. Again God should know what PI was but humans on the other hand. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:21 AM:

" Now about hares eating dung Mr. Hendren. Honestly that is far from being the same as chewing the cud by any stretch of the imagination and you do have one magnificent imagination. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:25 AM:

" AND about the mustard seed that is exactly the point Mr. Hendren, the black mustard seed would have been the smallest seed the farmers (and scribes and story tellers)in that area would have known. GOD on the other hand if he created everything would have know everything, that the mustard seed wasn't the smallest of ALL seeds. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:32 AM:

" AND finally the story in John about the corn is indeed an allegory and allegories are neither true nor false just good stories. Makes you wonder what else is allegorical in John and Mark and Luke and Matthew and Genesis....... As I have said many, many times Mr. Hendren. The Bible is a wonderful mis of fact and fantasy, poetry and prose, myth and metaphor. It is NOT the inerrant word of God, far too many errors for that, only the word of mortal men claiming divine inspiration. The Bible is well worth reading but it isn't the only book worth reading. Any person who wants to understand the world and their place in it, if they want to find their way to God or Nirvana or Peace or whatever it is they are searching for, NEEDS to read the Bible, the Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, the Buddhist Sutras, the writings of some of our American Indian spiritual leaders, of the Dalai Lama, of the Greek Philosophers,of......... Better start reading Mr. Hendren. I fear you are sadly very far behind. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:37 AM:

" This is Susan admitting that she does no research except looking to find someone who agrees with her.

I would argue that most people do that, jr. Including you and Vanatta. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:02 PM:

" jrhendren:"The mustard seed, actually the black mustard seed would have been the smallest seed farmers in that area would have planted and known about."

I thought you were claiming the Book was written by God who knows all. Now you're claiming the error was because the farmers did not know about a smaller seed.
So let's get it straight: the Book is written by God -- or by the farmers, who wrote limited by their own knowledge??????

PS: Apologize for misspelling your name; just shows my memory is not long enough to remember a name from the bottom to the top of a column. It was not done on purpose. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:34 PM:

" HOW has this column survived so long??

It is because the Book is so self-contradictory that folks can haggle night and day about what it says and then what it means.

Face it: "God" is simply a name for everything we don't understand and can't prove. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 5, 2009 11:52 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:07 AM:
" Mr. Hendren I have already told you that when I do research I always cross check and look for other points of view about a topic. That means that I do pull out my Bible and look up the passages.

No you don't or you would not say the things you say. You admitted, "You don't think I'd spend all my time searching for discrepancies when Biblical scholars have already done the research for me." Susan on Nov 4, 2009 7:36 PM. Caught by your own words again. You supposedly read the Scriptures yet misquote, and make up your own interpretations. Never looking at the meaning of words. Come on Susan quit while your behind.
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AND I do read viewpoints from Christian oriented groups. Why that is how I have found confirmation of some of the greatest errors in the Bible. Remember how I said the "gracethrufaith.com" website discredited the "reed sea" versus the "red sea" by stating that reeds only grow in fresh water.

You really should have read the article instead of just part.

"The translation Sea of Reeds is given as an alternate to Red Sea in many Study Bible foot notes for the Hebrew Yam Suph. Since reeds only grow in fresh water, scholars have looked for centuries for a fresh water lake the Israelites could have crossed and of course none exists. But a more accurate translation of the Hebrew word would be seaweed and of course this grows in salt water." - GraceThruFaith

Once again proof of your lack of researching.
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The common reed Phragmites grows in all but highly alkaline water. It is the common reed of salt marshes and ditches here in Illinois. You should do a little research Mr. Hendren your lack of education is apalling. "

As just shown that would be your lack of research skills, that being none, and education are appalling. Education being for your spelling. Come on at least use spell check if you are going to mouth off about someones education. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:00 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:11 AM:
" We agree again on something Mr. Hendren, you said God "made no such errors" in reference to all the errors in the Bible. AND I agree because God did not write or even dictate the Bible. The Bible is the work of men claiming divine inspiration. AND MEN (as in male humans, not female humans) as we know are quite fallible. "

Except that all your "errors" have been proven false. As for "God did not write or even dictate the Bible." that is once again your right to believe that. Just as it is my right to believe he did "write or dictate" the Scriptures. You once again are the one who seems to have a problem with that. (Here comes her usual remarks about hatred.)
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shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:16 AM:
" Sorry Mr. Hendren about your other attempts to brush aside the errors. Even back then some humans knew the difference between mamals and birds. If God is all knowing even he would have known the differencee, especially if he created everything. Now if he wasn't responsible for creating everything and isn't all knowing and all perfect than it makes absolute sense that even he wouldn't know the difference. Bats and birds that walk on all fours. You will have to do better than that Mr. Hendren. "

First it's "mammals" not "mamals". You would think someone with your supposed education would know that.
Secondly, I did not brush off any errors, just pointed out that you were wrong, and showed you why. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:12 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:18 AM:
" AND Mr. Hendren the circumference of that "molten sea" would have come out to 31.4 cubits not 30. Any ancient architect that had made that big of an error wouldn't have been worth his salt. Again God should know what PI was but humans on the other hand. "

You once again miss, or take out words. Such as the words, "circular in shape", not "perfect in diameter". Quit trying to force the Scriptures to say what you want. (Here is where she says that is what I am doing not her.)
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shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:21 AM:
" Now about hares eating dung Mr. Hendren. Honestly that is far from being the same as chewing the cud by any stretch of the imagination and you do have one magnificent imagination. "

So you then again ignore the original languages. How convenient for you. Don't do any research Susan, we'd hate for you to have to think for yourself. You just keep letting others do that for you.
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shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:25 AM:
" AND about the mustard seed that is exactly the point Mr. Hendren, the black mustard seed would have been the smallest seed the farmers (and scribes and story tellers)in that area would have known. GOD on the other hand if he created everything would have know everything, that the mustard seed wasn't the smallest of ALL seeds. "

To the people it was. Wow, you really do not know English do you. What, were you wanting him to say, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like the Gomesa crispa seed...the smallest of all seeds." That would have made a great illustration. He would have spent hours explaining that it was a seed they would never see, and was not from there. That would not have lost the audience. I hope you do not do, or ever do a public speaking engagement. He used a seed the people, his audience, believed to be the smallest of all seeds. It once again is an illustration, or allegory. You arguments are getting worse and worse. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:18 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:32 AM:
" AND finally the story in John about the corn is indeed an allegory and allegories are neither true nor false just good stories. Makes you wonder what else is allegorical in John and Mark and Luke and Matthew and Genesis....... As I have said many, many times Mr. Hendren. The Bible is a wonderful mis of fact and fantasy, poetry and prose, myth and metaphor. It is NOT the inerrant word of God, far too many errors for that, only the word of mortal men claiming divine inspiration.

As I have also said many times that is your opinion and you have the right to it. Although as for your "errors" they have been proven wrong, and not errors at all.
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The Bible is well worth reading but it isn't the only book worth reading. Any person who wants to understand the world and their place in it, if they want to find their way to God or Nirvana or Peace or whatever it is they are searching for, NEEDS to read the Bible, the Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, the Buddhist Sutras, the writings of some of our American Indian spiritual leaders, of the Dalai Lama, of the Greek Philosophers,of......... Better start reading Mr. Hendren. I fear you are sadly very far behind. "

Not at all. I read the true Word of God, the only Word of God. You can feel free to read your "enlightenment" books if you want. I will stay with my God who wants a relationship. A God that is about love, respecting others, friendships, mercy, peace, and hopefulness. You really ought to read it for real sometime. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:20 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 5, 2009 7:37 AM:
" This is Susan admitting that she does no research except looking to find someone who agrees with her.

I would argue that most people do that, jr. Including you and Vanatta. "

Oh come on Harry, you know as well as I do I cite my sources, and research on my own. Please don't tell me you are scared of Susan, that you are afraid to get her on your bad side? "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:28 AM:

" Cognitus wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:02 PM:
" jrhendren:"The mustard seed, actually the black mustard seed would have been the smallest seed farmers in that area would have planted and known about."

I thought you were claiming the Book was written by God who knows all. Now you're claiming the error was because the farmers did not know about a smaller seed.
So let's get it straight: the Book is written by God -- or by the farmers, who wrote limited by their own knowledge??????

I am not saying it was written by the farmers. As I stated earlier, if Christ has spoken of the Orchid with the smallest seed the people would not have known what he was talking about. He used what they would see as the smallest of all seeds, not a seed they would never see, nor know of. It was a great illustration, one that the people would understand. Just as if I was talking to you, started talking about something you had no clue what was, you would lose interest. Jesus used what they would comprehend.
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PS: Apologize for misspelling your name; just shows my memory is not long enough to remember a name from the bottom to the top of a column. It was not done on purpose. "

Apology excepted, and I apologize for jumping. I have had some on here before purposely mock my name. It's all about respect, and by you apologizing, no matter if we agree on an issue or not, have earned by respect.
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Cognitus wrote on Nov 5, 2009 9:34 PM:
" HOW has this column survived so long??

It is because the Book is so self-contradictory that folks can haggle night and day about what it says and then what it means.

Face it: "God" is simply a name for everything we don't understand and can't prove. "

That is your entitled to opinion. Something many on here can not grasp. That is the greatest thing about this country, we have the right to our own opinion. I personally can say that is something I believe is awesome about God too. He wants us to choose him, not force us to as some religions do. "

Cognitus wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:59 AM:

" People do make fools of themselves where God is involved. This evening on TV we saw a rally/press conference (they couldn't decide what to call it) to which Michelle Bachman summoned all good Conservative Congressman who have sworn to defeat health care.
One Congressman, without rehearsal, decided to make a big splash (after the flag was inadvertently dumped on the ground) by reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. He was so bursting to get the UNDER GOD into it that he forgot the nation is "indivisible".
John Boehner of course made the biggest blunder of he day: he waved a copy of The Constitution (he said) as if it were a royal scepter and, purporting to quote from it, recited its "Preamble".
Well those of us who are educated know only of the 2 does the DECLARATION OF
INDEPDNDENCE have a "preamable". As I wrote him in a note this evening, he
had publicly confirmed the low opinion I had of Ohio education when I left one of the universities there 50 years ago. "

cd wrote on Nov 6, 2009 8:42 AM:

" I'm good without taxes.
I'm good without liberals.
I'm good without Obama.
I'm good without deadbeats that won't hold a job, even if they are offered one.
I'm good without big government. "

shumphreys wrote on Nov 6, 2009 10:23 AM:

" Face it Mr. Hendren you have hung yourself once again with your own statements. Oh and Mr. Potter isn't afraid of me, I don't think he is afraid of anyone, unlike you. I think that Mr. Potter respects me even if he doesn't agree with everything I say just as I respect him even though I don't agree with everything he says. You can't win Mr. Hendren, the TRUTH wins everytime, and you don't tell the TRUTH. "

father bob wrote on Nov 6, 2009 3:38 PM:

" cd wrote on Nov 6, 2009 8:42 AM:
" I'm good without taxes.
I'm good without liberals.
I'm good without Obama.
I'm good without deadbeats that won't hold a job, even if they are offered one.
I'm good without big government. """"

can you speak chinese? "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 6, 2009 6:36 PM:

" Oh come on Harry, you know as well as I do I cite my sources, and research on my own. Please don't tell me you are scared of Susan, that you are afraid to get her on your bad side? "

Scared of Susan? Come on jr, are you serious. You have never seen me back down from anyone on here. As I've said many times, I happen to agree with just about everything she says. If you want to see that as being scared, help yourself. I have also disagreed with a few of things that are posted by my fellow lefties, but just like you don't criticize the comments made from those on the right side, I don't make it a habit of criticising those on the left. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Nov 6, 2009 10:18 PM:

" " cd wrote on Nov 6, 2009 8:42 AM:
" I'm good without taxes.
I'm good without liberals.
I'm good without Obama.
I'm good without deadbeats that won't hold a job, even if they are offered one.
I'm good without big government. """"

and father bob Harry Potty and The Q are not good with anything!!! LOL "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 11:18 PM:

" Cognitus wrote on Nov 6, 2009 12:59 AM:
"John Boehner of course made the biggest blunder of he day: he waved a copy of The Constitution (he said) as if it were a royal scepter and, purporting to quote from it, recited its "Preamble".
Well those of us who are educated know only of the 2 does the DECLARATION OF
INDEPDNDENCE have a "preamable". As I wrote him in a note this evening, he
had publicly confirmed the low opinion I had of Ohio education when I left one of the universities there 50 years ago. "

I am not defending him but the Constitution does have a preamble.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." - United States Constitution "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 11:20 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 6, 2009 10:23 AM:
" Face it Mr. Hendren you have hung yourself once again with your own statements. Oh and Mr. Potter isn't afraid of me, I don't think he is afraid of anyone, unlike you. I think that Mr. Potter respects me even if he doesn't agree with everything I say just as I respect him even though I don't agree with everything he says. You can't win Mr. Hendren, the TRUTH wins everytime, and you don't tell the TRUTH. "

Your right the truth wins every time, to bad for you it isn't on your side. I have used your own words against you. It is you who is hung, not me. It is you who tries to twist the truth. As for Harry, I am sure he knows he has my respect. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 6, 2009 11:25 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 6, 2009 6:36 PM:
"Scared of Susan? Come on jr, are you serious. You have never seen me back down from anyone on here. As I've said many times, I happen to agree with just about everything she says. If you want to see that as being scared, help yourself. I have also disagreed with a few of things that are posted by my fellow lefties, but just like you don't criticize the comments made from those on the right side, I don't make it a habit of criticising those on the left. "

Harry I hope you know I don't beleive you are scared of Susan. Since their is nothing to be scared of. Though we disagree on many issues you have my respect, and I hope I have yours. I was mainly pointing out that I do cite, unlike so many. I do not find someone to agree with me, cut and paste their opinion, and call it mine, like others. In fact, I usually do not even cite from a conservative news outlet, to show no bias. You know that I research not just type as some, from both sides do. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 8, 2009 8:57 AM:

" and father bob Harry Potty and The Q are not good with anything!!! LOL "

Really Jon, didn't I say that you won me over with your brilliant theory that the earth was only 6000 years old? Serious Jon, all those scientists don't know nearly as much as you and Orly Taitz do.

I bow to your superior intelligence and wisdom in all matters. "

father bob wrote on Nov 9, 2009 11:12 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 8, 2009 8:57 AM:
" and father bob Harry Potty and The Q are not good with anything!!! LOL "

Really Jon, didn't I say that you won me over with your brilliant theory that the earth was only 6000 years old? Serious Jon, all those scientists don't know nearly as much as you and Orly Taitz do.

I bow to your superior intelligence and wisdom in all matters. """""

he must be quaker. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 11, 2009 8:58 AM:

" JOHANNESBURG A newly discovered dinosaur species that roamed the Earth about 200 million years ago may help explain how the creatures evolved into the largest animals on land, scientists in South Africa said Wednesday.

The Aardonyx celestae was a small-headed herbivore with huge barrel of a chest, and the scientists said it could prove to be a missing evolutionary link.
AP-

Oh no! Say it isn't so, Jon. I may have to rethink my decision to join the thumpers revisionists theory on evolution. "

jrhendren wrote on Nov 11, 2009 11:46 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Nov 11, 2009 8:58 AM:
" JOHANNESBURG A newly discovered dinosaur species that roamed the Earth about 200 million years ago may help explain how the creatures evolved into the largest animals on land, scientists in South Africa said Wednesday.

The Aardonyx celestae was a small-headed herbivore with huge barrel of a chest, and the scientists said it could prove to be a missing evolutionary link.
AP-

Oh no! Say it isn't so, Jon. I may have to rethink my decision to join the thumpers revisionists theory on evolution. "

Not to get into a deep discussion on this subject with you again Harry. However, you do realize it's a little early to be thinking this is the next "missing link". Besides look at all the other "missing links" that have been shown to be wrong either by bad science, or lies. "

Harry Potter wrote on Nov 12, 2009 6:40 PM:

" Just trying to keep Jon on his toes, jr. lol! "