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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Monday, August 31, 2009 9:06 PM CDT
Charge alleges dad 'incapable of driving safely'

By DAVE FOPAY, Staff Writer
dfopay@jg-tc.com

CHARLESTON — A man accused of causing the death of his daughter in an accident was under the influence of drugs and alcohol and was also texting on his cell phone at the time.

Those are among the allegations in the newly filed charges against William B. Shackles, who was arrested after driving his vehicle through a fence at Coles County Memorial Airport along Illinois Route 16 on the night of Aug. 19. His 5-year-old daughter Elsa was a passenger in the vehicle and died later at Sarah Bush Lincoln Health Center.

Shackles, 34, 6660 Stockton Road, Loxa, has been charged with aggravated driving under the influence and reckless homicide. He made his first court appearance in the case on Monday and requested time to hire an attorney, and Circuit Judge Teresa Righter scheduled another hearing for Sept. 8 to review the status of the case.

One of the aggravated DUI charges against Shackles accuses him of being under the influence of alcohol, marijuana and the anxiety medication Ativan at the time of the accident. The charge alleges he was “incapable of driving safely” because of his condition and the offense can result in a prison sentence of three to 14 years if there’s a conviction.

Also, the reckless homicide charge against Shackles alleges he used his cell phone to send text messages, exceeded the speed limit and weaved in and out of traffic, making it likely that Elsa could be killed or harmed. The offense carries a possible two- to five-year prison sentence upon conviction.

Shackles remains jailed with his bond set at a level where he would have to post $4,000 to be released.

Police said Elsa was in the back seat of Shackles’ pickup truck and he was driving eastbound on Route 16 about 7:30 p.m. on Aug. 19 when the accident took place. At the time of Shackles’ arrest, Mattoon police said they didn’t think the thunderstorms and other bad weather that hit the area the same evening were a factor in the accident.

Court records show that Shackles was sentenced to prison in October 2001 when he pleaded guilty to a charge of driving while license revoked, an offense that was a felony because of his prior convictions. His record also includes two convictions for driving under the influence, as well as for other offenses and traffic violations.

Contact Dave Fopay at dfopay@jg-tc.com or 238-6858.

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The Question wrote on Aug 31, 2009 1:56 PM:

" Ok, let's hear the usual parade of his defenders to say that this irresponsible, dangerous drunk who got his daughter killed has been "punished enough." Their sheer indifference to morality and justice is disgusting. "

GrampaC wrote on Aug 31, 2009 4:35 PM:

" He will be advised to return to AA. Remember, he has an incurable disease of alcoholism, LOL. More 12 step dogma that he is quite familiar with. How is he different than Ted Kennedy? Guess his previous treatment didn't work. He obviously circumvented the system. A possible solution to his problem is, don't drink. Of course, he has been told he is 'powerless' over alcohol. Excuses, excuses, excuses. His body didn't appear at the liquor department without full knowledge of what he was doing. Maybe he will pray to the God of AA to relieve his alcoholism? Multiple DUI offenders have been coerced to the false medicine of AA. Orange-papers.org. Says it better than I can about the truth of the treatment industry in our health care system. Follow the money. What mysterious disease? I got my driver's license back with ONE DUI following Smartrecover.org. If Shackles knew about alternative recovery programs, maybe he wouldn't have done what he did. The guilt that 12 steps put on you are costly to the soul. Google 'AA cult". "

Rohn Gordon wrote on Aug 31, 2009 6:22 PM:

" You should not have got yours back after one DUI conviction. "

kamfong wrote on Aug 31, 2009 7:20 PM:

" Sounds like Granpa's still in denile lol. "

GrampaC wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:12 PM:

" Typical stepper logic, Rohn & Kamfong. Shackles treatment for his addiction failed. Now, tell me what step was he working when he got drunk again? Maybe he was texting his AA sponsor! "

Jim1969 wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:32 PM:

" As far as I am concerned when someone gets drunk or high and causes the death of someone else the charge should be first degree murder.

The "drunk" made the choice to drink or do the drugs the same way someone else would have made the choice to pick up a gun and shoot someone for no reason. "

vdbsvr wrote on Aug 31, 2009 8:40 PM:

" I have a few friends that took all them classes and they say all it does is make them want to drink when they leave. Maybe instead of putting someone (with a disease) in an hour class once a week them let them leave, they should find a different way to help. Long term treament. Alcolism is like any other disease if you don't treat it, it takes over. Have some compassion. "

Mike P wrote on Aug 31, 2009 11:03 PM:

" Shouldn't a 5yr old probably have been in a booster seat? Nothing presented yet suggests even having a seatbelt on, just that she was in the back seat. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 31, 2009 11:12 PM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 31, 2009 1:56 PM:
" Ok, let's hear the usual parade of his defenders to say that this irresponsible, dangerous drunk who got his daughter killed has been "punished enough." Their sheer indifference to morality and justice is disgusting."

I agree with you question. Though I am sure he is suffering at knowing he killed his daughter that does not excuse his actions. If convicted he should pay for what he has done, and be punished to the full extent of the law. "

mom of 3 wrote on Sep 1, 2009 3:45 AM:

" Good Lord!! When are people going to stop texting while they are driving. On Sept. 30th it will be 2 years since my daughter was killed in a car wreck. Why? Because she was texting while she was driving. I am almost afraid to drive anymore. 2 out of 3 people driving seem to be texting when I drive past them. This man has to live with what he has done. To text and drive drunk with your child in the car is insane. He was only thinking about himself. Very sad. "

hank hill wrote on Sep 1, 2009 6:07 AM:

" To grampa c: Evidently you tried the AA "cult" and it didn't work for someone as smart as you. Perhaps the hundreds of thousands of alcoholics out there that get a daily reprieve from the often fatal "disease" of alcoholism are brainwashed...so what, it works and it is proven! I agree that the person in question should not have a license, but if the courts sent him to AA for a sentence, are the AA members/groups responsible for him? Maybe our court system on DUI needs to be amended. I also agree that our substance abuse treatment industry is a sham, just don't blame that on AA. The industry and AA are not connected in any way whatsoever. An AA members primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. "

slap63 wrote on Sep 1, 2009 7:20 AM:

" My opinion, Alcohol a disease? Sorry I don't buy it. A disease is something that happens to your body unwillingly without knowledge its happening. And you can do nothing to stop it. Alcoholism is a direct result of what someone knowingly does to their own body. They cause it. A result of abuse to your own body. I hate when people abuse their body for years and then after they cause irreversible damage,they call it a disease. Me, I call it stupid. Weak. And irresponsible. What do you expect is going to happen? I can't feel sorry for people who play the game and then lose. You did it to yourself!! And, sometimes your stupid, selfish acts of self indulgence costs innocent people their lives! This idiot proved time and time again that he had no regard for other people. He should have been dealt with a long time ago. Why do people wait until its too late before they want to take action. Why do other people feel sorry for people that take a chance with childrens lives?? Sick. He should hurt. Does that make it all better? NO. He had no control this time,or any other time. Its time to take control of him and keep the rest of us safe from his irresponsible behavior because we know he will do it again. "

citizen of Mattoon wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:01 AM:

" Alcoholism is not a disease! It is a series of bad choices. It is past time to make drunks stand up and be accountable for their actions. "

nurse98 wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:11 AM:

" Alcoholism is a disease and its not a laughing matter. I have seen people die from long term abuse, and short term abuse. I have patients with alcohol dementia and brain damage from just drinking alcohol. I have had patients that would do anything for 1 more drink. So next time your out getting drunk you may want to think about the possibility of choking to death on your vomit while your passed out, or when you get in to your car and not only end your life but that of an innocent person. "

CrowWoman wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:13 AM:

" I agree with you, mom of 3, about the texting. I am so sorry to hear about your daughter's death. So many kids are doing this, it is scary. They just don't think about what could happen. I've warned my daughter about texting while driving and hope she took the warning to heart. Driving while texting is just as dangerous as driving impaired. "

pj1983 wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:18 AM:

" i'm just about tired of hearing about how horrible it is to text while you drive. distracted driving is what causes accidents. period. end of story. is texting any worse than drinking or being drunk? both delay reaction time. what about shifting through CD's or flipping through radio stations. what about the mom with kids in the back seat throwing a temper tantrum? or the person with a million things on their mind with their head lost in the clouds? "

just wondering wrote on Sep 1, 2009 10:15 AM:

" With all the tests you have to take to do various things like driving, too bad for this little girl that they do make people take a test to be a parent. If that were the case, there would probably be a lot less children born. I find it incredible that someone still defends alcohalism as a disease. It starts as a choice. The results of alcohal abuse after many years may seem like a disease, but it starts out as a choice. Alcohal is the biggest drug problem in our counry today. Until it is addressed as such, we won't make any headway on the other drug problems in this country. "

Harry Potter wrote on Sep 1, 2009 10:56 AM:

" Alcoholism is not a disease?

Oh really?

I suppose the local experts on here know more than the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association who say it is.

Some of you folks would do well to read up on this topic before you spout off on a topic of which you obviously know little or nothing about.

I'm not making excuses for any one's behavior, but to say alcoholism is not a disease it just plain ignorant and goes against the grain of the medical profession. "

Texas T wrote on Sep 1, 2009 11:03 AM:

" A law goes into effect today in Texas that makes in illegal to text or talk on a cell phone that is not hands free while driving in a school zone. I really think they should widen that to include all city streets at all times and not just school zones but it should keep the teens off of the phones as they are driving off of school property. "

Sunny0911 wrote on Sep 1, 2009 1:10 PM:

" 2 prior drinking violations, should have taught someone something !! Father - Mother ? U Think ? "

just wondering wrote on Sep 1, 2009 1:24 PM:

" Just because the so called experts call something a disease doesn't make it so. We have got to the point in this country we want to blame our problems on anything or anybody else rather than take responsibility for ourselves. A person becomes an alcoholic by making the choice to drink and then doing it over and over again. When you drink to excess you then develop a need for more alcohol to get the same high you used to get with less. You build up this dependancey on your own, not from some disease that has afflicted you. If it were a disease you would be driven to drink in access before you ever started drinking. But it makes more money for your "experts" to call it a disease. "

vdbsvr wrote on Sep 1, 2009 1:30 PM:

" Alcoholism is a disease it's been in my family for many years. I've had 3 relatives die from it. My mom has struggled with it my whole and because of so many of my family suffering from it first-handed or second-handed I won't drink. I get the urge to every now and then but remember what it has done to me and my family. So to say it's not a disease is rediculous. And yes I do feel compassion for Shackles, not only cause I know him and his family but because of what I've seen alcohol can do to somebody. "

mindboggle wrote on Sep 1, 2009 1:34 PM:

" Mike P wrote " Shouldn't a 5yr old probably have been in a booster seat? Nothing presented yet suggests even having a seatbelt on, just that she was in the back seat. "

Nothing states that the child was not in a booster seat or not having a seatbelt on. You don't need a full report and it doesn't matter if she was or wasn't in a booster seat or had a seatbelt on. The incident was avoidable. "

Interested Observer wrote on Sep 1, 2009 2:18 PM:

" I clearly remember homicides where one spouse killed the other spouse and were remorseful afterward, yet they were still charged with murder, convicted and imprisoned. This gentleman gets no sympathy from me; he, too, should be convicted and imprisoned. If anything, the fact that it WAS his five year-old daughter makes it *worse*. "

Old Grumpy wrote on Sep 1, 2009 3:37 PM:

" Life is all about choices. When you make the wrong choice you often have consequences. If those consequences are harsh enough you are remorseful. Feeling bad because you made a stupid decision does not excuse you from the consequences. Blaming your actions on a "disease", such as alcoholism, is just a way to avoid the responsibility for those actions.

Does anyone really think this guy would have been remorseful about driving under the influence if the accident had not happened? I don't think so. "

just wondering wrote on Sep 1, 2009 3:44 PM:

" To vdbdvr, you can not be an alcoholic unless you start drinking alcohol. If you make the choice like you say you do not to drink, you will not be an alcoholic, plain and simple. The same is not true with a disease. You contract diseases to the body without doing anything to bring it on. "

mom of 3 wrote on Sep 1, 2009 4:01 PM:

" Well PJ, u may have a point. You should never take your eyes off the road. You are behind a huge piece of machinery. But when your texting your eyes are off the road for way too long. If you think texting while driving is ok, try telling that to the mother of this little girl that lost her life because of her dad's ignorance. There is no worse pain then burying your child, believe me. Until you have been there don't tell me texting is not right. "

~STRANGER~ wrote on Sep 1, 2009 4:19 PM:

" "FREE BRIAN SHACKLES" "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 1, 2009 4:52 PM:

" Hank-"The industry and AA are not connected in any way whatsoever."
Yes they are. 95% of substance abuse treatment centers are 12 step based and have vested interest of promotion of AA. Most couselors and employees of such tx centers ARE members of AA that do not offer alternative treatment modalities. The disease concept is only that. No scientific proof that alcohol addiction is a disease. Addiction is a choice, not inherited or the result of a bad gene-pool. Bad behavior and too much drinking too often lead to addiction. AA members are told to pray and have a 'spiritual experience' to relieve them of their alcoholism. Ever know someone with a real disease such as cancer rely on the hocus pocus of AA's religious program for a cure if alcoholism is a disease? And I question the Enron math techniques of AA's reported success rate. Very nominal. 5%. How can AA claim as you say 'hundreds of thousands' of a daily reprieve, when AA conservatively claims only 2-3 million members? Shackles probably had a daily reprieve, but so much for permanent sobriety! "

Mama says wrote on Sep 1, 2009 5:23 PM:

" The INCAPABLE OF DRIVING presented itself years ago.
Many wonder if Elsa was in a carseat?
Or another offense? The way this person got away with so much boggles the mind.
If in prison maybe clear his brain.
No alcohol available be nice in prison?
There is a belief in the Catholic religion of SINS OF OMISSION. Where you know someone in danger and you do nothing makes you as guilty as perpetator. I would FEAR GOD for sure. "

manscaper wrote on Sep 1, 2009 7:08 PM:

" i have met this shackles and he is a peice of work, i wouldnt let be around a animal let along a person, bad judgement call on the mother and a bad decision from him he should be put away for a long time,, that bond should be a at least 200,000 thousand i no people who have done much less, didnt hurt anyone and have gotten bigger bonds,sad to say he might walk with a slap on the hand "

safetydance wrote on Sep 1, 2009 8:58 PM:

" okay...is AA effective? Can any of you experts tell me what the relapse and drop out rate(no longer attending AA) is after completing the steps? What is it after 3 yrs?? and 5 yrs?? It just doesn't work long term if you look at the numbers. I know of a rehab facility in Charleston that seams to qualify people for 30 days of in house treatment(as that is what the state will pay) and miraculously they are able to be released on the 31st day of treatment. Must be that magic wand they use as the state will no longer fund further treatment. It is a sham and even more a shame to those that go through it with so little long term effect. "

kamfong wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:32 AM:

" S Dance,not much different than the IDOC only requiring a prisoner to spend 61 days of an 18 month sentence.All about $$$,greed & numbers. "

shumphreys wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:58 AM:

" I'm back! First a disease is an "unhealthy condition" not just something caused by a pathogen. Second we catch many pathogens unintentionally through our careless actions: Aids, Cholera (drinking contaminated water), West Nile Virus (mosquito bites from not using insect repellant), Lyme Disease (not being careful about ticks)...... "

shumphreys wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:04 AM:

" One more thing, GrandpaC is right about AA, it does have its short comings. It works for some and not for others. It does trade one dependancy (upon alcohol) for another dependancy (upon a higher power or members of the group) rather than teaching independancy! Which is one reason many substance abuse programs fail for so many people. They aren't taught to take full responsibility for their actions, but that is unfortunately something that is best taught when a person is young and difficult to teach (the person has to be a willing learner and want to break the addiction, want to become self-sufficient and independant) "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:31 AM:

" safetydance-
Yes. As I mentioned before, Orange-Papers.org has mucho validated information on the 12 step line of faith-healing for alcoholism. Yes, if the HH people just parrot the dogma of AA and lip service their counselor, they will be set free. However, any questioning of AA will be deemed "denial"!. Have fun. Also, google "AA triennel survey, 1989." "

Lenny3 wrote on Sep 2, 2009 9:12 AM:

" I knew Mr. Shakles and realize what he did was horrible. This accident could have been prevented yes, but was it intentional, I highly doubt it. Yes he is going to punish himself for life and should be held accountable. If I remember correctly, didn't he have 2 dui's already? If so, then why did he have a license? But he is not the only person on earth who has ever killed someone due to drinking and driving. The laws need to be changed and persons who are convicted of driving under the influence need higher penalties. 6 months with no license and maybe a class or 2 obviously does not work. When are people going to realize that even with "just 1 or 2 drinks" may cause accidents or even deaths. "

HeinekenMan wrote on Sep 2, 2009 10:23 AM:

" I bet you can take a taxi from Mattoon to Charleston for less than $10. I wonder how much he spent on drugs and alcohol.

Texting and alcohol certainly contributed to the accident. But they weren't the primary cause. Instead, we can blame ignorance, selfishness and a complete disregard for the law. Had he used common sense or obeyed the law, that little girl would still be with us.

It makes me wonder what he was texting that was so important. I'd hate to be the person who was on the other end of that conversation. "

Raider65 wrote on Sep 2, 2009 11:09 AM:

" The way I understand it, is that an alcoholic, whether he is drunk or sober, is still an alcoholic. Being an alcoholic means you can't handle alcohol. You can't drink in moderation. You can only drink yourself into a stupor. The medical profession calls it a disease, because it's a disease of the brain. To remedy the problem, you have to stop drinking. But even after you stop, you're still an alcoholic. "

shumphreys wrote on Sep 2, 2009 11:45 AM:

" Alcoholism may have, probably does have a genetic component just as obesity and other addictive behaviors have a genetic component (in some people). Science will in time unlock all the secrets of our DNA. If Alcoholism is to be (successfully) treated all factors must be addressed and people must receive individualized treatment (at least treatment that better meets their specific needs and issues). Mass treatment programs (one size fits all) don't have great results. Tougher penalties don't have great results (people always think they can beat the system). Stricter enforcement helps but doesn't stop the problem. Educational campaigns help bu they also aren't the only solution to a very serious social problem. "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 2, 2009 2:12 PM:

" shumphreys-You actually make sense.
Lenny3-Shackles got his license back because he got letters and confirmation of his ablility to remain sober from the good folks from AA and DUI services that advocate group therapy and the indoctrination of 12 step groups. Guess they were wrong! Shackles may have had mental health issues that contributed to his drinking, but to let the tx courts, judges, etc. to have him coerced into ineffective methods such as AA, is just 'bad medicine'. I have presented information resources that have been validated for ALL to evaluate on their own. I quit drinking after numerous treatment centers on my own. I'm not trying to provoke or be a smarty, just factual as to the 'real' situation that substance abuse treatment is based on in our court system.
Most everyone HAS the ability to quit drugs and alcohol if they make up their own mind to do it. They are repeatedly told they can't do it alone, or with rational thinking, etc. It's very difficult to explain to someone alternative tx methods when that person's job IS dependent upon the 12 step dogma and beliefs this tx modality. And they say they are 'open minded'? Explain the virtues of democracy to a communist. You'll get the same reaction. "

vdbsvr wrote on Sep 2, 2009 4:36 PM:

" I agree with Stranger "FREE BRIAN" "

The Shadow wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:17 PM:

" Congratulations, vdbsvr. You win the Monkey See Monkey Do award. "

Mama says wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:26 PM:

" Don't look for FREE BRIAN ro happen.
Too many sober men want to show him justice. Never mind the MADD mothers.
FREE him to do more drunken driving?
I guess his FRIENDS at the BAR do miss him. I would be missing the child more.
THIS incident isn't about BRIAN. His life should be over, his CHILD'S IS.
If he spends forever in prison be too good. But at least be sober and not on the road anymore. I don't HATE BRIAN,
just what he has done repeatedly and still hasn't LEARNED A THING. "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:42 PM:

" vdbsvr:
Guess your offspring is doomed to this mysterious disease of alcoholism PRIOR to taking a drink? Absolutely ridiculous presumptions. Save the children, they probably told Shackles daughter she was at risk too because of the 'family disease'.
Celeb Rehab 3 w/Dr. Drew Pimpsker is about to air. Watch the train wreck happen with these clients. Same disease theory crap. Only more entertaining results. "

vdbsvr wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:46 PM:

" I ment to say that I've been told by doctors that it's in my genes and it's very likely for me to become an alcoholic. That's why I don't drink. "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 2, 2009 5:58 PM:

" Harry Potter- all due respect.
Have you done your homework by checking Orange-Papers.org? You have lots of reading to do. Check ALL the links. You may learn something. Open your mind as you indicate via past posts that you are objective. 123 doctors in Philadelphia voted w/out proof that alcoholism is a disease.
I'm not ignorant. Open your mind, my friend. TREATMENT doesn't work!!!! "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 2, 2009 6:20 PM:

" vdbsvr:
I too was told that since I'm of Irish decent, I'm doomed. However, facts are that many with Irish decent genes do drink responsibly. Their genes are the same as mine. Why did I become addicted to alcohol and they didn't? Pure and simple, I liked to get drunk too often too much of the time. Behavior choice. Not the gene pool. "

Billie Brant wrote on Sep 2, 2009 7:10 PM:

" HP, I agree with you. Alcoholism is a disease. I've seen it in a member of my own family, my dad, now deceased. This person I'm refering to didn't die of it though. He quit over forty years before he passed away almost six years ago.. He knew he was onl in "remission" so to speak. One drink would have sent him sinking into it again.

He tried AA, but it wasn't for him. He quit cold turkey after a binge whereby he couldn't remember ANYTHING! Absolutely nothing! He blacked out! When he woke up the next morning and realized this he knew he HAD TO QUIT! After that blackout dad had, it scared him because he realized for the first time, he could have killed himself and possibly others while driving in that condition. It's a miracle he was never in any accidents.

At the risk of some out there "pooh poohing" how he did it, I'll tell you how he was able to quit.. He "hit his knees" the next morning and prayed for God to help him. He knew he couldn't do it on his own. He had tried too many times and failed. It must have worked because he never had another drink from that day forward. He had no shakes, No DT's, no cravings, only peace that he didn't need it anymore. This was incredible, because he was a heavy drinker. He never missed work or drank on the job( owned his own business), but "Buddy bar the door", when he got off work! To him and us this was a case of "Divine Intervention". He never considered himself "healed" though. He was in recovery and he knew he had to abstain from it the rest of his life. That responsibility was on HIS back .

I do believe there's a gene that can contribute to it just as there are other conditions and diseases that can be passed on to family members. Thankfully,I wasn't affected by it. I love to drink beer, but it isn't a problem for me. I can choose to have one or not. I don't feel I "have to have it".

Those that have this disease though have to realize they need to do all they can to combat it. Those of us with Diabetes know what we can and can't have. Dad said he had an extreme allergy to alcohol. I think he was right. Seems like a simple explanation to me. "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 2, 2009 8:19 PM:

" Billie:
All due respect. Your father didn't die of the disease of alcoholism if he quit drinking 40 yrs. ago.
God maybe did remove his 'character defects' that contributed to his drinking,e.i., loved the feeling of purposely getting drunk. Your father's experience is not uncommon, even after AA. He basically 'empowered himself' over the bottle. SAME thing as STEP 3 and 4, and 5 of the 12 steps? Do you honestly believe Shackles didn't do this very same thing via AA? Guess God is very selective of whom recovers from addiction and who doesn't.
Still no solid scientific/medical evidence that alcoholism is a verifiable disease. Show me the evidence, please, so all on this post can rest assured that if the AMA says it so, then it must be so. Remember when TB was considered having intercourse with the devil? Doctors then agreed wholeheartedly. They obviously were wrong.
Everyone most accepts that diabetes is a real disease, the medical profession as well. However, there is much debate in the scientific/medical community about drinking too much booze as a bonafide disease. To compare alcohol abuse to diabetes is absurd.
I have posted links with evidence to challenge the bias of the addiction tx industry, which I will repeat. Judge for yourself AFTER opening up your mind and actually reading alternative theories on addiction. And how does an Atheist quit drinking? I know many whom have, so the reliance on God is quite suspect.
Orange-Papers.org, Rationalrecovery.org, Smartrecovery.org.
Morerevealed.org. "

Harry Potter wrote on Sep 2, 2009 9:01 PM:

" GrampaC, in all due respect to you, I'll take the word of those who actually have the credentials to be called experts over those of a self taught/selfprofessed expert any day.

Again, I mean no disrespect for you or your opinions, I simply disagree with you. To continue this debate would be an exercise in futility. I do respect your civility in the matter. "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 2, 2009 9:13 PM:

" Harry:
Those websites ARE by EXPERTS in the addiction field.
You are correct, it is senseless to debate the facts that you have not investigated.
Just because they represent a growing skeptical view of addiction tx, doesn't make it untrue. "

Billie Brant wrote on Sep 2, 2009 10:09 PM:

" No GrandpaC, my dad did not die of alcoholism. I said this in my post. I fully believe though he was predisposed to his problems with alcohol because of a genetic pre-disposition to it, much like some are to Diabetes or thyroid disease, both of which are in my family. I have both. These genetic "weaknesses" for lack of a better word, can become full blown diseases.

My addiction is nicotine. It has been for over 50 years now. I'm trying desperatly to overcome it. I had a "ticker"( a-fib) scare about a month ago which has forced me to try again. Spending four days in the hospital waiting for my heart to "flip" back into normal rhythm gave me time to think about quitting. I don't agree that it's "just making up your mind" to quit. That of course has a lot to do with it, but it's not the only factor. My problem is, I like to smoke! I'm not one of those smokers who says "Oh gee! I don't like these things, but I just can't stop"! I like the darned things! By the way, I had my doc leave orders for "the patch" while there so I wouldn't get unruly without a smoke. :-)

I'm having some success now, with the "patch" and cutting back. I've cut my consumption in half. believe it or not, I haven't taken a swing at anyone yet! LOL!

According to the American Lung Association, those who quit "cold turkey" have a fail rate in the high 90% range. I'm going to keep at it until I win this time. "

laramie wrote on Sep 3, 2009 6:57 AM:

" If you think texting while driving is ok, try telling that to the mother of this little girl that lost her life because of her dad's ignorance.

True, but you'll have to go to the Icehouse to tell her.

Mama says wrote: If he spends forever in prison be too good. But at least be sober.

I had a friend who was in prison, he said the best booze he ever had was in prison. "

shumphreys wrote on Sep 3, 2009 6:57 AM:

" GrandpaC it doesn't help (is a waste of time) to quibble over definitions that have already been decided. A disease is an unhealthy condition. You would agree wouldn't you that being a chronic drinker puts one into an unhealthy condition? "

vdbsvr wrote on Sep 3, 2009 8:15 AM:

" Thank you Granpa C. Orange-papers.org say's only 5% of alcoholics recover using AA. So maybe the court system needs to quit throwing these people in jail or prison and maybe try something different. Instead of these so-called support groups. "

CrowWoman wrote on Sep 3, 2009 8:20 AM:

" Billie, best wishes re. quitting the cigarettes. Your post reminded me of when I tried to "help" my mother quit smoking. This was back in my late teen years. Early one morning, during a time she was trying to quit, I threw all her cigs away. She was also going through menopause at the same time, and I remember vividly how she suddenly burst into tears and ran through the hallway to her bedroom. Though I don't smoke, I'm old enough to know it's a miracle she didn't strangle me, LOL.... "

vdbsvr wrote on Sep 3, 2009 1:24 PM:

" Laramie it doesn't matter where someone works. It doesn't make her a bad person for working at a bar. It means she's doing something to pay bills. God forbid any of you perfect citizens have an accident or someone in your family have an uncontrolable addiction. I didn't realize there was so many GODS out there cause no one should judge. There's only one judge and HE teaches forgiveness. "

Harry Potter wrote on Sep 3, 2009 3:07 PM:

" True, but you'll have to go to the Icehouse to tell her.

So?

Are we going to criticise people for being gainfully employed now?

This woman lost her child. As a parent, I can think of nothing worse, and the last thing she needs is to hear a hurtful comment like that. Shame on you, Laramie. "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 3, 2009 6:17 PM:

" shumphreys-
Yes and no. The behavior of excessive drinking in and of itself is NOT a disease. Just like smoking isn't a disease. These habits create real physical diseases.
Still haven't gotten irrevocable, unanimous, and documented evidence that alcoholism is a disease. This theory is practiced by most all available tx of alcohol dependencey. Not every MD agrees with this MYTH.
The disease modality of alcoholism is just a personal belief. Then so be it. It is NOT universal by anymeans. "

knobren wrote on Sep 4, 2009 1:18 AM:

" GrampaC, I suppose you don't believe that depression is an illness either. "

knobren wrote on Sep 4, 2009 1:21 AM:

" I find it very sad that the guy could get less time for killing his daughter (2-5 years) than for being "incapable of driving safely" (3-14 years). "

shumphreys wrote on Sep 4, 2009 7:34 AM:

" GrandpaC Alcoholism is as much a disease as Chronic back pain (or any chronic pain, PMS, Migrain Headaches, erectile dysfunction..... All of these are labeled as such for a purpose of securing insurance coverage for treatment. Habits such as smoking and alcohol create real physical SYMPTOMS just as PMS creates real physical symptoms, chronic back pain creates real physical symptoms as well as being a physical symptom. Erectiles dysfunction is a real physical symptom made worse by personal actions, stress, foods eaten, blood pressure, etc. Speaking of blood pressure many could simply lower their blood pressure by loosing weight and altering their diet. Personal behaviors cause many of our health/disease problems. "

knobren wrote on Sep 4, 2009 3:39 PM:

" GrampaC - Try "The Science of Addiction: Drugs, Brains, and Behavior" http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/magazine/issues/spring07/articles/spring07pg14-17.html "

knobren wrote on Sep 4, 2009 3:42 PM:

" GrampaC - "Translational Studies of Alcoholism" http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh313/215-230.htm "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 4, 2009 8:49 PM:

" shumpreys-I concur that behavior contributes to real diseases. That's what I said. The behavior itself can in no way be called a disease.
knoben-yes, depression is a real disease.
Thru-out my posts, I have tried to imply and prove that NOT everyone in the medical community believes that alcoholism is a disease. My point is that the governments' take and the tx industry efforts are totally FAILING in curbing addictions.
There ARE more successful alternatives programs that are NOT available as substitutes for the faith-healing 12-step-group therapy approach.
SMARTRECOVERY.ORG IS RECOGNIZED by the "American Academy of Family Physicians, The National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), and the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA). NIDA and NIAAA are part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."
SMART does NOT recognize alcohol addiction as a disease.
To reiterate my point here, if you get a DUI and accessed as 'alcoholic', the courts will coerce you to AA, which is a total farce. People need to have options that are available for treating their respective chemical dependencies.
That's all folks. Disease or no disease, people whom read this post that ARE coerced to a regiment of meetings, meetings, groups, groups, counselors, counselors, hearing officers, hearing officers, etc.-there are choices available. Check them out if you aren't happy with the present 'substance abuse treatment' that is mandated by our Coles County judicial system. Talk to your lawyer.
I respect everyone here on this blog and their take on this Shackles fiasco. However, I'm 'burnt out'. So I've had my say, so 'adios'. It's been interesting. "

shumphreys wrote on Sep 6, 2009 4:08 PM:

" GrandpaC I agree that AA should not be the only choice for court ordered alcohol addiction treatment. Just as 12 step programs should not be the only option for any substance abuse treatment. AA trades one dependancy for another. AND the only way to break the cycle of depandancy is to teach independancy which can't be done unless the person is a willing participant, which court ordered participants aren't. Arguing over whether something is or is not a disease however diverts attention from what REALLY matters, it is a waste of your time, a waste of the oponents time, it is purely a way to DISTRACT attention from what matters. AND what is it that matters. It is finding a solution to the social problem of alcoholism. It is totally irrelevant (except for medical insurance purposes) whether YOU or others consider it a disease or call it a health issue or social problem. I might add that using "totally irrelevant" might not be 100% accurate since there are physical components (the way bodies metabolize alcohol and the effects on body functions), genetic components to the problem it isn't JUST an issue of people behaving badly. "

Rohn Gordon wrote on Sep 10, 2009 9:17 PM:

" I do not care what program some one is sent to by the courts, it will "NOT" work, unless that person really wants to stop. It is a waste of money and time forcing these people into rehab, AA, Na and all the other programs. But they should order these places to make it easier for people who "want" the help to get into them.
The biggest joke in our courts right now is drug people getting sent to the hour house for 30 days their bond reduced and then being released. They are lined up waiting for the next bed to open up. A bed that should be used to help someone that "wants" help. "

GrampaC wrote on Sep 11, 2009 9:16 PM:

" Your are correct Rohn. That's what I've been saying. You quit when you want to quit, unless underlying mental problems exist. Shackles just didn't make up his mind to quit, or he wouldn't be where he is now. Broke my silence, yet your and my accessment is 'on the money'. "