" Thank you for your letter. It was fascinating and what I call a fifty-fifty letter.
I almost stopped reading when you stated that you had not read the bill but already know it is a terrible idea. Thus, you speak out of ignorance which is unfortunate, but given this subject, you are in the mainstream. (I have read the bill, you can find it at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text It is a very difficult read. This site also has comments posted on it. )
Then you stated that you know that it is unconstitutional. Yet, you dont provide any evidence for your belief. And, based on my reading of the Consitution and the court cases that have interpreted it, I dont see where you find support for your position.
That say, however, I think your comment about the Post Office vs. Fed Ex has merit.
Finally, I suggest that before people write or call their representatives, they take the time to find out what is in the bill. Of course, that presupposes that the Senators or Representatives have taken the time to find out what is in the bill so that they can respond intelligently to questions.
Finally, I wouldnt bother Mr. Burris. He is probably too busy having Senator inscribed on his mausoleum. "

" another comedian! "

" http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_33/b4143034820260.htm

"Impressing fiscally conservative Democrats like Matheson, a leader of the House of Representatives' Blue Dog Coalition, is at the heart of UnitedHealth's strategy. It boils down to ensuring that whatever overhaul Congress passes this year will help rather than hurt huge insurance companies"

Insurance companies are paying millions of dollars A DAY wooing our encrusted...er entrusted "representatives" and buying even more profitability from our estranged....er esteemed gubment. Yep, like I keep saying, the best gubment money can buy. Unfortunately, we the sheeple can no longer afford them. "

" Elbert,
My evidence from the Constitution is from Article I, Section 8, U.S. Constitution, limiting the power of the federal government to 1.) General Welfare: a.) International and interstate commerce (trade) b.)Naturalization c.) Bankruptcy d.) Coin Money and establish its value e.) Weights and Measures f.)Punish counterfeiting g.) a Postal Service h.) Issue patents and copyrights i.) Establish Federal Courts j.) Govern District of Columbia k.) Purchase real estate for necessary buildings and 2.) Provide for the Common Defense a.) Define and punish Maritime and international Crimes b.) Declare War c.) Make rules for, and fund Military Services. This list represents the sum total of the functions the federal government is constitutionally authorized to do. The Founders had enough of an inherent distrust of the Federal system to put an exclamation point on Article 1, sect 8 in the form of the 10th Amendment. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Some think that without this Amendment, the Constitution would have never been ratified. The fact the Judicial system has had some bad calls in the past does not make this proposal any more Constitutional. Somehow, the power of the Federal Government has to be broken, and give way to the States again. The sole authority to do this if it exists at all, is at the State level. The system of checks and balances are dangerously absent. "

" cothern wrote: My evidence from the Constitution is from Article I, Section 8, U.S. Constitution, limiting the power of the federal government to 1.) General Welfare:


That's where you should have stopped, why I don't like the bill and think it is very bad, you yourself just said that the goverment is in charge of the General Welfare of the country, what exactly do you think, tht they think they are voting on. "

" Medic57
You should have continued, General Welfare was defined in the list a-k, and medical insurance was not listed, neither were many other things the Federal Government does. I do not deny there are problems; I do deny that the Federal Government is in any way trustworthy to be the provider of a "fix" for 2 major reasons. 1.) There is no Federal Authority (other than manufactured authority) and 2.) Give me one example of a well run government program that is not rife with fraud and deceit. The last entity that has any credibility to fix this is the Federal Government.
And further, can anyone explain why these bills needed to be passed out of committees in the Senate and Congress before the August recess when most of the provisions would not become law until 2013 (mysteriously after the 2012 election)? This just gives the impression that the Democrats who run the entire show with the President and majorities in both Houses are pulling a purely political move, rather than a sensible program. This actually could be done and done well if the political aspect was taken out of the picture, and that will take time, time not dictated by an arbitrary deadline. And finally, (back to the original article that prompted my letter) Senator Dick Durbin did not find it useful to come here to visit with us little people and assess our opinions, faulty as they may or may not be. He doesnt even think that it is worthwhile to come out here to take the time and try to convince us if we are truly wrong, and correct our misunderstanding.......that is elitism that I find revolting. "

" Thank you for your comment. I agree with Medic57. What do you think the term provide for the general welfare means? Obviously you don't think it means what the framers thought it meant or what the courts think it means.

You may not like the interpretations of the court. I know that there are several decisions that I don't think are proper. But, they presently represent the interpretation of the meaning of the constitution. "

" You haven't read the bill but you already know it's a terribly bad idea?
There are people at the town hall meetings that would like to listen first, then ask questions.
People like you are not giving them a chance because of the disruptions.
Why does the right wing always want to spin, confuse, confound? "

" " If the new system will mirror the UPS, FedEx, Post Office example, the Government-run office is the worst of the three."

Your experience is obviously limited. First of all, for a lot of years I've used the Post Office and NOT ONCE has anything been lost.

I live part of the year in the Rockies.
There is a set of Post Office boxes at a parking area, at the edge of the meadow, only 1/4 mile from my house where mail is delivered every mail-day.
A few years ago someone to be "smart" sent me a large envelope by Fed Ex.
Fed Ex dumped it at a Federal office downtown, and had a (taxpayer-paid) secretary call and tell me to drive (6 miles) into town and get it. I sent a card to the mailer telling her to send anything else by Postal Service.

Several years ago I had ordered some computer discs, expecting them to come by US mail. I guess the UParcel man could not read the addresses or perhaps was just tired of delivering "around the world". The discs were dumped at the nearest school, and the secretary called me to come and get them.

Also I used to get my drugs by "mail-order" -- except they came by United Parcel. When summer came and I went to the Rockies first time after making this arrangement, I learned United Parcel would not drive to my house.
I guess the UP man was afraid of the bears. It took several weeks to change to the local drugstore of the chain. In the meantime UP delivered HERE so when I came home I had 2 sets of drugs....

THIS KIND OF THING HAS NEVER HAPPENED WITH THE U S POST OFFICE.

Some people can find no one else to blame for their plight so it's easier to "just blame the government." It's this kind of mentality that leads Cothern to blame the Post Office. "

" Cothern:"Admittedly, I have not read the bill(s), but I already know that this is a terribly bad idea. First of all, and not at all inconsequentially, there is absolutely no Constitutional authority to do so. That alone should be reason enough to stop this."

Without reading you "already know" this is a bad idea?? How?? extra-sensory perception?? Mayby the Fox told you so??

And you claim no "Constitutional authority to do so." How about citing the specific sections of the Constitution which are violated.

You sound to me like a kid who is mad at the world and is kicking the nearest door. "

" dcothern:"Give me one example of a well run government program that is not rife with fraud and deceit. The last entity that has any credibility to fix this is the Federal Government."

First these 2 sentences themselves are
contradictory: you slam government programs but ask a government to fix "this".

OK OK
YOU HATE AMERICA.

I'm tired of listening to these people who do not trust our government, but are not quite sure why. It is run by people YOU elected.

If you don't like it, try Ethiopia, South Africa, Mongolia but GIT!!!!

The money: most of the money re the medical bill comes from drug/insurance companies. And they are "buying" with their contributions the people WHO WERE ELECTED. But you can't vote against Baucus OR Grassley. Move to Iowa; move to Montana and vote. Or write your letters to the editor to newspapers THERE..... "

" OK you guys, one by one...for Elbert...
What do you think the term provide for the general welfare means? Obviously you don't think it means what the framers thought it meant or what the courts think it means.
As I wrote above, heres what the Founders thought General Welfare meant. General Welfare: a.) International and interstate commerce (trade) b.)Naturalization c.) Bankruptcy d.) Coin Money and establish its value e.) Weights and Measures f.)Punish counterfeiting g.) a Postal Service h.) Issue patents and copyrights i.) Establish Federal Courts j.) Govern District of Columbia k.) Purchase real estate for necessary buildings. Regardless what you think it means, the words above are what the Founders wrote, Id say thats what they meant.

For Cognitus (I love the irony of your name)
Your experience is obviously limited. First of all, for a lot of years I've used the Post Office and NOT ONCE has anything been lost.
No, my experience is not at all limited with the Post Office. My Father, 2 brothers, and a sister-in-law have been in the Postal Service since before I was born. My Father and one brother have retired from the Post Office, and the other 2 are still there (not in Mattoon). I watched the Postal Service change in the late 60s through the 70s and drive my Father to early retirement by their insanity. Now, before you jump to an erroneous conclusion, he was a life long Democrat. You totally missed the point of the argument. Although you have not experienced a lost letter (which is nice), the point is the fact that the business is loosing about a billion a year, and in an attempt to get back into the black, they are contemplating dropping Saturday delivery and closing hundreds of offices. Is this the model we want to emulate?? I dont think so Tim.

And you claim no "Constitutional authority to do so." How about citing the specific sections of the Constitution which are violated. Please see above response to Elbert.

Without reading you "already know" this is a bad idea?? How?? extra-sensory perception?? Maybe the Fox told you so?? Cognitus, do you have to be a junkie to know that it is a bad thing to smoke crack? Do you have to be in jail to tell a person that its a bad place to end up? Can you only truly know something by experience? I do not have to know every detail in the bill to philosophically know that the Federal Government is not the entity to fix the system. In truth, Government itself gives us plenty of experiential evidence to cause us to run from this like a scalded dog. And, if animals speak to me, I do not understand them. But if I hear my cat meow at the garage door, I can assume that it needs to visit the litter pan. Other that that, I dont think animals are capable of language.

First these 2 sentences themselves are contradictory: you slam government programs but ask a government to fix "this". How could you miss my point?? I dont want the Government anywhere near this supposed fix. I was giving evidence that I have a basic distrust of them to do a job like this with the example the President gave...the Post Office.

It is run by people YOU elected. No, sir it is run by the people WE elected, assuming you voted. AND further evidence that we need this run at the State level. You, me, all of us have at any one time 3 representatives; 2 Senators and 1 Representative......out of 300,000,000 US population. My vote is worth about 1 in 100,000,000. At the State level, I have the same number of representatives (3) with a State population of about (quick guess here) 13,000,000. My vote is now 23X stronger at the state level than at the Federal level. My State Reps will be much more responsive to the average voter like me. As an example, I was at lunch Sunday with my family and was paying for my meal, and who should appear behind me in line to pay? Sen Dale Righter. If I had a beef with him, I could have stuck my bony finger in his chest and gave him what for right there. What chance would I have to do the same to Sen Durbin? About zero.

I'm tired of listening to these people who do not trust our government, but are not quite sure why. I know exactly why I have a basic distrust of the Federal Government. I got it from the Founders themselves, and from understanding human nature. Read what the Founders wrote, they were very skeptical of amassing Federal power. The one place I agree with you is in your comment about money. Anytime you want to get to get to the bottom of anything, follow the money. That is where the solution begins...not by handing this over to the Feds.

And finally, both of you chide me for not reading the bill(s), but starting out against the bill. Why look down at me, when most Democrats in Congress also have not read the bill and are for it? Especially when we get an attitude from Judiciary Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich.), I love these members, they get up and say, Read the bill, What good is reading the bill if its a thousand pages and you dont have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill? If the Chairman of the Judicial committee needs 2 days and 2 lawyers, what chance do I have to make sense of this train wreck on paper. Thats a fine example of our Representation in Washington and plenty of reason to distrust them all. "

" dcothern
Thank you for your comments to my recent post.
My source is http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_pre.html and the commentary which with respect to the phrase promote the general welfare states This, and the next part of the Preamble, are the culmination of everything that came before it the whole point of having tranquility, justice, and defense was to promote the general welfare to allow every state and every citizen of those states to benefit from what the government could provide. The framers looked forward to the expansion of land holdings, industry, and investment, and they knew that a strong national government would be the beginning of that.
Thus, I respectfully ask that you provide sources for your opinion as I have done.

I note that you cite a number of representatives who have not read the bill. Thus, I say they speak from ignorance and since they could read the bill at the source I cited, namely http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text , they are lazy and I would and will not vote for someone who doesnt do their homework.

I try to get as much information as possible before expressing a judgment. Apparently, you didnt feel that it is necessary to do that. That is your choice and I respect your right to express an opinion without reading the bill. I do not, however, look down on you just because you choose not to read the bill. You are a human and worthy of respect I wish you well in your efforts to do your best "

" "STOP THIS CRAZY THING!!!"
Where were you when George Bush was giving away no bid contracts to Halliburton???
Where were you when George Bush was
lieing about WMD's?
Where were you when George Bush was
promoting his stimulas package?
The country will be much better off when people like you are out of the political arena. "

" Then I suppose Julio you don't care much either for this story about the Obama administration and big pharma: http://tinyurl.com/lojy6s "

" "...they plan on jamming this through with or without our blessing..."

Welcome to a representative democracy sweetheart. You don't get to to vote up or down on each issue, sorry, but that's how the government rolls and has rolled for the last 200 plus years.

"..there is absolutely no Constitutional authority to do so."

What? Why? Because you haven't read the bill but know it's a bad idea? Tell us, oh smart one, since when doesn't the Congress have the authority to pass legislation? Do you even know what the Constitution is?

Just write your representatives and let them now just how ignorant you are, and while you are at it, please feel free to offer a suggestion on how to fix the problem of health care in this country.

People like you make me glad we have a represenative democracy. "

" He never stated that Congress couldn't pass any legislation that it wanted to. He was stating that this exceeded the authority of the federal government as set forth by our founders. If congress did pass this mess, the court should strike it down. However, that's not gonna happen since we already have precedence with medicare and medicaid. "

" Elbert, first of all thanks for the well wishes, same to you. your last comment about me not reading the bill before forming a judgment is valid. The only thing I would add is how long after the second plane crashed into the World Trade center did it take to form a reasonable and informed opinion in our minds that the pilots were up to no good? One plane crashed, tragedy, pilot error, pilot died in the cockpit, massive mechanical failure, gremlins...plane number 2 hits tower number 2, intentional, planned. You would have to be extraordinarily nave to believe that it was anything other than a well executed plan. What recent evidence do I have from the Federal Government can I look to give me any idea that this will be a successful program?? How about the IRS code? Medicare? Welfare? Social Security? Ultimately, I have almost no faith in our Government to fix, handle, manage, rearrange, however you intend to call it, 1/6 of our economy. Now, after reading the bill, whats your thinking on what you read? Good, bad, indifferent?? I dont want you to think I am merely a blind partisan, and want the bill(s) defeated for political purposes only, I do want a better system. To help me understand, I know a person who works in a very respected Childrens hospital that has a resume the size of a small booklet giving me his impressions of a reasonable fix.....and he is not blindly conservative, probably leans slightly left of center. So, I am out there seeking answers. I just will not be easily convinced that our Federal Government can provide these answers. "

" julio wrote on Aug 19, 2009 8:10 AM:
" "STOP THIS CRAZY THING!!!"
Where were you when George Bush was giving away no bid contracts to Halliburton???
(note to self, I know I shouldn't go here, this is a text book definition of a rat hole...)
Julio, have you ever been part of a government contract? I have. The no bid contracts were for projects that needed done immediately. It would have taken over 2 years to go through the RFI - RFP process just to get those projects started. When you (or your business) are registered to fulfill Government contracts, they tend to continue to do business with the same contractor to avoid duplicating all that needs to be done to get certified to enter into Government contracts. It is a major pain in the butt. Haliburton must have a great track record for properly fulfilling Government contracts. There are certain parameters where the Government can go no bid, and it is tightly constrained by Congressional oversight; and for 6 of Bush's 8 years, he did not have majorities in both houses. It's not just good 'ol George Bush handing out favors for Dick Cheney. The contracts I was dealing with was so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and it took me in one case over 180 days to get paid. (were talking less than $25,000 in sales). What profit we made was eaten up in administration costs it took to get paid. Now I understand why we have $5,000 toilets.

Where were you when George Bush was promoting his stimulus package?
Vociferously opposing it, very bad idea, and still is a bad idea.

The country will be much better off when people like you are out of the political arena. "
Really?? Youre not serious, are you?? REally?? Do you want a homogenous country with no dissenting opinions? Do you not savor the mental exercise of having your own opinions challenged by differing opinions? What if you are wrong, do you want to continue to be wrong? If I am wrong, I sure want to know about it, and if Im honest, Ill rethink things...wouldnt you? "

" LISTEN!!!!!!!!!
There's all this BS about death panels as a political device to attack the opposition.
BUT you just as well face it; we're all GOING TO DIE. And when you're in your 80s as I am, the time is ... closer than you might think. The rest of you -- well you never know when ... accident, heart attack even when young (a high school football player died in StL yesterday).

In New York -- and I'm sure in other places -- physicians are being trained in HOW to gently tell people they are going to DIE. [I know a case here in Charleston where the father had to tell the young man he was going to DIE because the MD didn't have the courage.
They young man accepted it; they talked about it; finally one day (after talking to the MD) he told the young man that TODAY was probably going to be the day. The young man went to sleep -- he had accepted death, and was angry when he woke up because he had to endure another day.......

I'm going to give you a website -- copy/paste -- and I insist you READ IT; play the few short movies. If you're over ... say 60, I DEMAND you read it.
It's not quite bad, but it's not like Gone With the Wind. It shows young MDs being trained in pallitive care and living with, advising, and treating people who are dying. At the beginning they use actors to PLAY the role, but we also see a real case unfold. At one point when the patient is in severe pain, so drugged she hardly knows what to do the husband says he can't see her starve BUT the situation is so desperate he asked the MD if he can't give something to "help her OUT of her pain."

READ it and you'll understand better why you NEED end-of-life directives. I'm not talking about politics, dammit, I'm talking about something you CANNOT evade. And also remember some doctors, understandably, feel that death is a professional insult, failure, and will (I'm not being critical) sometimes do EVERYTHING that MIGHT give the patient a few days despite extending the time of pain and un-living while "alive"....

Here it is: use Edit copy/paste

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/20/health/20doctors.html?pagewanted=1&th&emc=th "

" "He was stating that this exceeded the authority of the federal government as set forth by our founders."

What? So, since when did passing legislation exceed the authority of the federal government as set forth by our founders? That sounds real good on Fox News, but would you mind expanding on that? Where exactly in the Constitution does it say this? Furthermore, since you admit we have Medicare and Medicade as examples, why haven't those programs and TRICARE/VA been struck down by the Supreme Court.

Nevermind, we both know what "this exceeded the authority of the federal government" and "there is absolutely no Constitutional authority" really mean -- it means you don't like it and will try and wrap your opinion together with patriotism, because otherwise your argument against improving our health care system falls flat on it's face. "

" Dcothern
Thank you for your kind reply.
I was listening to the radio reporting on the first plane cash into the World Trade Center when I heard them report a second plane crash. I walked out of my office and told my secretary what had happened and remarked that One plane might be an accident, but two plane crashes were not an accident.
I think the present tax code is a disgrace. For example, I fail to understand how a widow with one child is charged a different and higher rate than a married couple when both have exactly the same income. I also think it a disgrace that so many are so confused about taxes that they pay someone to do them for them.
I have read the bill. It is an extraordinarily difficult bill to read and even though I graduated from high school, I doubt that many would want to take the time to read it as it is difficult to understand. There parts of the bill that I like. For example, I support the provision that makes it possible for people to receive information about health care options including advance directives. I support this because I believe that people should have information about their options and how to plan their own lives and provide their health care.
I am concerned about the cost. Our government, for years, has spent more than it has taken in. Keynes argued that governments should spend more in times of underemployment to increase consumption. But, Congress doesnt remember that Keynes argued that in times of prosperity, the government revenues must be used to reduce the debt. Apparently, Congress and the executive branch, both parties, have forgotten that.
I took the occasion to look at Representative Johnsons list of requests for funds for our district as well as that of Senator Durbins (Senator Burris hasnt posted a list, surprise, surprise). While I appreciate the constitute services that Representative Johnson has provided me, the total cost of requests is unreasonable. In this respect, I support the positions of Senators Coburn and McClain.
Finally, I congratulate you on your desire to seek answers. The search for truth is an ongoing process as we often see through a glass darkly. I wish you well in your quest. "

" elbert:"But, Congress doesnt remember that Keynes argued that in times of prosperity, the government revenues must be used to reduce the debt."

INDEED. But Bush went to war, treated money like confetti, sent it literally in bales to Iraq. Didn't have the guts to RAISE taxes. Instead he DEMANDED A TAX **CUT** .... and told people to go shopping.
Folks forget that it was when Bush was president that we had the first flood of govt money into Wall Street. Of course they forget; he cowered in the corner and let Paulson do the dirty work. "

" elbert:"That say, however, I think your comment about the Post Office vs. Fed Ex has merit."
=============
Maybe you should read about MY experience with Fed Ex and UPS.
Maybe YOUR experience is limited
also. "

" Cognitus

Thank you for your comments though I admit to being somewhat confused by them. You seem to imply that I did not include the executive branch in my discussion of how the government has ignored Keynesian economics.

Yet, I wrote on August 21st, namely 'Apparently, Congress and the executive branch, both parties, have forgotten that.' That statement includes Mr. Bush and his actions to have a tax cut and fight a war where incidentally, he didnt include the cost of the war in his budget. Rather the war funding was made in terms of supplemental funding Mr. Johnson also tried to have guns and butter, without much success.
I read your experience with Fed EX and UPS. Very few organizations have a perfect record. I have, on occasion had trouble with UPS.
Finally, I admit that my experience is limited to what I have had throughout my life. I know that I dont know everything, but am still trying to learn.
I wish you well in your efforts to learn and be productive. Courage. "

" ATTENTION prez Obama,
It is going to take us a long time to clean up YOUR MESS when we get back in the majority in 2010 and 2012. Enjoy your spending spree while you can, because most Americans who voted for you, now realize their mistake. "

" Hound Dog wrote on Aug 23, 2009 6:51 AM:
" ATTENTION prez Obama,
It is going to take us a long time to clean up YOUR MESS when we get back in the majority in 2010 and 2012. Enjoy your spending spree while you can, because most Americans who voted for you, now realize their mistake. "

I will realize my mistake in voting for any elected official who bows down to the insurance companies' pressure to line their pockets at the cost of my well-being. We need a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, not of the fat-cats, by the fat-cats, and for the fat-cats. "

" Sarah Palin, always playing the victim card, continues to whine about how the press treats her kids, but once again she throws one of her brood into the spotlight, this time with her false story about Obamas health care plan possibly killing her mentally challenged child. Does this woman ever tell the truth? "

" AnnaNiemaus wrote on Aug 24, 2009 6:02 AM:
"We need a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, not of the fat-cats, by the fat-cats, and for the fat-cats. """""


my vote for post of the day!! "

" my vote for post of the day!! "


I'll second that one, fb! "

" When has Obama provided a good example?

Rev. Wright? Nope, scratch...
Bill Ayers? Nope, scratch...
Porkulus Spending? Nope, scratch...
Health-care reform? Nope, scratch...

Well, there's your answer...Obama has never provided a good example for anything... "

" Cognitus wrote on Aug 21, 2009 11:42 AM:

Folks forget that it was when Bush was president that we had the first flood of govt money into Wall Street. Of course they forget; he cowered in the corner and let Paulson do the dirty work. "
----------------
Why yes, yes he was and a majority of Americans were against the bail out.

Boo- bad Bush, nasty Repub-a-clowns who voted for it, throw the bums out.

Somehow you conveniently forget that this action was enabled by a congress controlled by- Democrats.

They won control of both the House and Senate in 2006 and this bill was passed October 3, 2008!

Since this is at least the fourth time this has come up and it seems some continue to ignore these simple facts, please excuse my shouting:

BUSH JR. COULDNT DO IT ALONE BECAUSE AS PRESIDENT HE COULD NOT INTRODUCE BILLS NOR VOTE TO MAKE THEM LAW.

THE REPUB-A-CLOWNS IN CONGRESS COULDNT DO IT ON THEIR OWN AS THEY WERE IN THE MANORITY IN BOTH HOUSES SINCE 2006.

IT TOOK THE MAJORITY DUMMYCRATS TO PASS THIS ATROCIOUS TRANSFER OF PUBLIC FUNDS TO THE FINANCIAL ELITE.

When will you party ideologues quit pointing fingers at the other guys and own up to the fact YOUR GUYS ARE JUST AS BAD!

Throw all the bums out in 2010. "

" The FAT CATS have pay for their bigger litter boxes. I read the topics, glad for the information so know where to look and like Jack Webb said GIT THE FACTS. The fat cats keep shoving their crap down our throats I guess to see if we gonna swallow it or barf?
What will the government do when no one has anything left to take? "