" Republican U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski said, "It does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there's these end-of-life provisions, these death panels. Quite honestly, I'm so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn't (in the bill). There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill." "

" Start putting some price controls on the health care industry and you will solve the problem. The cost of health care and drugs have risen at a much higher rate than anything else in our economy. But nobody wants to stand up and tell them enough is enough. "

" Thanks to Bailey Young for a truly great letter in support of a health care bill and in particular support of single-payer.
I fear it is unllkely we will do that well but we absolutely MUST at least have the "government option"

I will NOT accept selling my children, my grandchildren and further generations to the insurance industry profits -- acquired by reducing what they call "medical loss" -- made to satisfy the appetite of Wall Street.

I'm going to tell you how to find the truth, admitting that it may vary slightly from browser to browser.
1. Go to www.pbs.org
2. In the upper right type Potter
into the search box and click GO
3. A list will appear, and this morning the top line will refer to Bill Moyers and a Mr.Potter.
4. Click on this line and a large picture of them, face to face will appear.
5. Click on the triangle in the center and relax and listen in horror to the movie about the things insurance companies do to you.

Wendell Potter was Head of Corporate Communications for Cigna Health Insurance, well-paid and widely respected for his defense of Cigna.
But one weekend over a year ago he went to visit his parents and saw a "Health Fair" in the hills of SW Virginia and was dismayed by what he saw: hundreds of people, some driving over 500 miles, to get the free health care they could not afford at home.
He went back to his fancy office in
Philadelphia and wrestled with his conscience -- and fortunately his conscience won.
There are many vile tricks the health insurance industry plays on US because their loyalty is to WALL STREET, NOT to YOU.
I could outline some of them. But even better, listen to Wendell Potter, the man who "came to Jesus", tell you of HIS insider personal experiences with the health care industry. "

" Cognitus wrote on Aug 12, 2009 9:25 AM:
" 1. Go to www.pbs.org
2. In the upper right type Potter
into the search box and click GO
3. A list will appear, and this morning the top line will refer to Bill Moyers and a Mr.Potter.
4. Click on this line and a large picture of them, face to face will appear.
5. Click on the triangle in the center and relax and listen in horror to the movie about the things insurance companies do to you."""""


thanks for the link. i had seen bits and pieces of this interview, but i'll watch it all tonight... "

" Another CON in health care, quoted by conservatives:
Time after time, one hears conservatives quoting statistics from the Lewin Group,a "non-partisan" source. In fact Congressman Tim Johnson's "fact sheet" quotes statistics from the "non-partisan Lewin Group".
Who owns the Lewin Group? Here's a quote I lifted, copy/paste, FROM THEIR VERY OWN WEBSITE:"The Lewin Group is an Ingenix company. Ingenix, a wholly-owned subsidiary of UnitedHealth Group"
So BE AWARE that whenever you hear a conservative quoting the "non-partisan Lewin Group", they are simply mouthpieces for insurance companies. Old enough to remember Edgar Bergen and his dummy, Charlie McCarthy?? Then you get the picture. "

" Nice letter!!!
Thanks for the effort. "

" Bailey - yes, the current system needs revamped. But HR 3200 is a TERRIBLE solution to the current problem. Have you looked at any of the provisions in it?

The Question: What the Senator (and you) apparently missed is where the "Death Panel" phrase came from. Obama advisor (and the Chief of Staff's brother) Ezekiel Emanual, a physician, published a paper earlier this year. In it, he advocated the "Complete Lives System", which sets up a matrix to ensure scarce resources are spent on those who would most likely achieve a "complete life", instead of wasting them on someone who will not. Thus, resources are not spent on the weak or infirm, but spent on those who are "better-off", who would greatly benefit from the resources. He would implement a priority curve on which individuals between 15 and 40 get the most chance to live a complete life, whereas the youngest and oldest get chances that are attenuated.

But try explaining that to most people.

Hence a somewhat terrified and outraged mother of a Downs-syndrome baby could justifiably call it the "Death Panel." Hyperbole, but rooted in truth.

Even liberal commentator Camille Paglia, who at first laughed at the notion of a death panel, upon introspection agrees with its use.

No, it's not in the HR 3200 (at least, I couldn't find it, but I haven't read all thousand pages either), but since this Dr. Emmanual would likely be appointed Health Czar, er Commissioner, (which IS in the bill) it's likely to be implemented eventually, particularly as a means to limit costs.

HR 3200 seriously abridges freedoms in America, and is a bad choice. A team of 34 moderates, including Rep Mark Kirk, put forward a more tenable plan to ensure universal coverage, and that should be considered.

Reform for health care is important, and shouldn't be rushed without serious consideration, and respect of American freedoms and traditions. "

" hehehehe!!!.....another person privy on the final draft of the bill. where do you people get your inside information?? "

" will sarah palin be on my death panel??? hey, i just gotta know!

hehehehe!!! "

" LIBERAL COLUMNIST: SLAMS PALIN, THEN CONCLUDES: HEY YOU KNOW, THAT END-OF-LIFE COUNSELING .... IS KINDA FISHY.


WASHINGTONPOST (Aug 11 2009) - "If the government says it has to control health-care costs and then offers to pay doctors to give advice about hospice care, citizens are not delusional to conclude that the goal is to reduce end-of-life spending."

-Eugene Robinson
-----------


Death Panels- phhhhft! How ridiculous!

Now then: "Health-Care Cost-Controlling" for the elderly?- Oh sure! There's that.



*shhhhhhhh* *let's get this craptastically encrypted bill passed asap before people catch on* *shhhhhhhhhh* "

" FB - That's a great point. It's a puzzle when Obama makes claims about the bill, like you can keep your insurance, when section 102 of HR 3200 says you cannot. Not sure what bill Obama is talking about either. He's out there selling something that doesn't exist, ...hope and change, I guess.

Anyway, HR 3200 has passed the House committee ans is ready for a vote. It's here: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Read it and drool. "

" Collatine wrote on Aug 13, 2009 3:33 PM:
" FB - That's a great point. It's a puzzle when Obama makes claims about the bill, like you can keep your insurance, when section 102 of HR 3200 says you cannot."""""


HR3200 is not going anywhere. it's dead in the water.

there are two bills in the senate, one has been looked at prior to break the other will be after they reconvene. "

" FB - I hope so. I heard on the radio that Durbin submitted something that was perhaps more reasonable, but I haven't taken the time to look for it yet.

I just hope that Obama understands that enacting serious legislation that reforms our system would be a great success, even if the first several drafts don't work. No sense in rushing it. It might take a couple of years, but delay does not mean deny. "

" Sarah Palin is always willing to play the hypocrite if it will make some political points and this week she has been riding the "death panel" horse, criticizing a proposal in one of the health care bills which would pay for counseling re end-of-life decisions -- SUCH AS LIVING WILLS.
It has been discovered that Gov Palin declared a "Healthcare Decisions Day" in Alaska to be observed on April 16, 2008 and at that time URGED people to use the day for end-of-life decisions INCLUDING LIVING WILLS.

I have used copy/paste to provide you a COPY of her declaration of that special day:
=======================================
"WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. [...]

WHEREAS, one of the principal goals of Healthcare Decisions Day is to encourage hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities, and hospices to participate in a statewide effort to provide clear and consistent information to the public about advance directives, as well as to encourage medical professionals and lawyers to volunteer their time and efforts to improve public knowledge and increase the number of Alaska's citizens with advance directives.

WHEREAS, the Foundation for End of Life Care in Juneau, Alaska, and other organizations throughout the United States have endorsed this event and are committed to educating the public about the importance of discussing healthcare choices and executing advance directives. ........
======================================
My my Sarah, isn't YOUR proposal SUPPORTING exactly what is in the bill that you now so bitterly oppose? Hypocrisy, always a part of "Palin politics"-- we should call such lies "Palotics". "

" Cognitus - Let's assume what you say is true, that she has done a 180 on that position. So what? Because she has seen the light on something that is scary, makes her point wrong? Since when is changing one's mind a crime? For that matter, you want to point out that a politician is a hypocritical? So what? To be human is to be hypocritical. We ALL change our minds on issues as we mature and evolve, and there are always people like you to say, "pant pant hypocrite!!!"

Her point, as she explains on her facebook page, is a good one. So good, that the Senate is excluding the concept from its bills. "

" To be human is to error;
To be a politician is to be hypocritical. Dont get the 2 mixed up!
The federal reserve,and the world bank and all the major coperations are the ones that run the government.The puppets elected are there to keep the statis quo. And anybody aginst that is labeled a terrorist. "

" Collatine:"Not sure what bill Obama is talking about either. He's out there selling something that doesn't exist, .."

There's some truth to that BUT Obama is largely talking about Generel Principles.
But the opposition is ranting about very specific items from various of the drafts available -- and naturally they pick the worst, then lie and exaggerate about them. Better appoint your "death panel" ... oops, that's been wiped out hasn't it. "

" This is a proffit driven system, There is no room to be ethical.The way things are,ethicis can play no part in buisness as we know it. Greed and ethicis cannot exsist at the same time.Comman good would be the ethiacal thing to do,but once you place proffit at the top of the list,you can kiss ethics and comman good goodbye. A line has to be drawn somewhere. "

" The march of the armed right-wing whackadoodles continues.
A man is carrying an assault rifle and a pistol outside the VFW Convention in Phoenix where President Obama will speak today, a local newspaper reports. Local police say it's legal under Arizona law. The man, who declined to give his name, was asked why he was armed. "Because I can do it," he said. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms."
This is the third report in a week of someone bringing a gun to a presidential event. At Obama's town hall last week in Portsmouth, N.H., a man was arrested for having a gun hidden in his car after the Secret Service found him at Portsmouth High School hours before Obama arrived carrying a pocket knife. He didn't have a license for a concealed weapon.
Another man in Portsmouth was spotted carrying a gun in a leg holster outside the school. The unconcealed weapon was legal under New Hampshire law and he was not arrested. Later, when asked why he brought the gun, he replied, "That's not even a relevant question. The question is, why don't people bear arms these days?"
Also, a man brought a gun to a town hall with Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN) last week, without incident. At an event with Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), someone dropped a gun, but he had a permit and no police report was taken. And two weeks ago, a New Mexico man tweeted that reform opponents should bring guns to town halls and "badly hurt" Service Employees International Union representatives. "

" Of course, being all of an inch deep, Republicans see nothing ironic in carrying murderous weapons to crowded public meetings about health care. "

" As each day dawns, Republicans prove anew that guns are an extremely poor substitute for brains. "

" The Question wrote on Aug 17, 2009 3:02 PM:
" Of course, being all of an inch deep, Republicans see nothing ironic in carrying murderous weapons to crowded public meetings about health care. "

The Question wrote on Aug 17, 2009 4:59 PM:
" As each day dawns, Republicans prove anew that guns are an extremely poor substitute for brains. "


So now you are against the 2nd Amendment, besides the right to assemble and protest. Any other parts of the Constitution you don't like. You want to get rid of search and seizure too, or how about freedom of the press. I mean that way no one could denounce people like ABC for editing interviews. "

" Don't make assumptions, jr. It's another of your sloppy intellectual habits.
I am in favor of the Second Amendment, but anyone who is stupid enough to bring guns to a crowded public health meeting is a dangerous, thundering fool. Whom are they trying to intimidate, and why? "

" "We ALL change our minds on issues as we mature and evolve, and there are always people like you to say, "

This is true Coll but are you saying that Palin really thinks that living wills are bad ideas? "

" The Question wrote on Aug 18, 2009 7:54 AM:
" Don't make assumptions, jr. It's another of your sloppy intellectual habits.
I am in favor of the Second Amendment, but anyone who is stupid enough to bring guns to a crowded public health meeting is a dangerous, thundering fool. Whom are they trying to intimidate, and why? "


The Question wrote on Aug 17, 2009 3:02 PM:
" Of course, being all of an inch deep, Republicans see nothing ironic in carrying murderous weapons to crowded public meetings about health care. "

The Question wrote on Aug 17, 2009 4:59 PM:
" As each day dawns, Republicans prove anew that guns are an extremely poor substitute for brains. "

Sounds like your for the 2nd Amendment to me, what was I thinking. I didn't say what he did was right, just pointed out that your statements are not as you say. As you once again group all Republicans with anyone who is extreme, but when someone does that to the Democrats they are just being stupid. "