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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 9:47 PM CDT
LETTER: Time for new approach to nation's health care

JOHN KILGORE, Charleston

In 1993, facing a health care crisis but also a golden opportunity for meaningful reform, America let itself be cowed into inaction by a fear campaign waged by the insurance and drug industries, with their now-infamous “Harry and Louise” commercials.

Now in 2009, with the crisis worse by an order of magnitude, we seem to be on the brink of repeating that bad history. According to yesterday’s New York Times / ABC News poll, support for the President’s health care initiative is steadily eroding, and passage looks increasingly unlikely.

As I write this, my health insurance company is six months behind in payments to my providers. Several close family members are without insurance.

Every procedure I have, no matter how minor, costs twice what it should and produces an endless stream of paperwork. My mother, the wife of a former CEO of Lovelace Medical in New Mexico, just had to wait six months, in continual pain, for fairly minor knee surgery, while doctors and lawyers and insurance companies performed their maddening minuet.

Analysts note that, under our current system, physicians everywhere are pressured and tempted into practices that drive up costs but do not benefit the patient.

The ratio of medical insurance claims paid to premiums collected has sunk from 95 percent two decades ago to 80 percent currently, with much of the difference going into the pockets of fat-cat managers.

In the midst of a deep, deep recession, Americans are paying one in six dollars earned for health care that is by objective measures an inferior product. The costs of the whole Rube Goldberg mess are dragging the larger economy down toward Third World status.

And of course, one American in six simply has no medical insurance.

What in God’s name is wrong with a country that still refuses to act in the face of such obvious and overwhelming need? What happened to our former courage, energy, gumption, and ingenuity?

To the optimism, the creativity, the pragmatic willingness to experiment? All replaced by a palsied fear of change, it seems.

When the barn is on fire, freezing in place is not a good option.

No matter how much it scares us, we have to try something other than the current insanity — one new initiative after another, if necessary, until we get it right.

Demand health care reform now. Accept no excuses.

JOHN KILGORE

Charleston

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Harry Potter wrote on Aug 5, 2009 6:24 AM:

" Look out John, Sybil the troll will be along to straighten you out. This country has no health care problems according to him and the nutters at Fox news. "

Lost Confidence wrote on Aug 5, 2009 9:51 AM:

" John, I agree, but I do not believe that government control of health insurance and health care is the answer for speeding up your step-fathers surgery, or improving costs (ie. $10,000 hammers sold the pentagon).

I do NOT profess to have the answer, but my friends, the bill from the house is not the answer either. "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 5, 2009 10:24 AM:

" I just wish the public would wake up to the way the insurance companies are cutting off people when they need help,
cutting off employers of small business when ONE of their employees has an expensive illness.
I've never used tinyurl before but go to:
http://tinyurl.com/August052009
If this won't click, Edit Copy/Paste
to get it into your URL.
If your software won't play the movie, the written transcript follows
right below it.
You'll see Bill Moyers facing a Mr.
Potter who used to be a vice president of one of the largest health insurance
companies and "went to Jesus" (after going to a "health fair" in rural SW Virginia and seeing how desperate people are for health care) and is now telling the secrets about how insurance companies are trying to lower their "medical costs" so they will have larger profits, so Wall Street will notice, so their stock will go up.
It's appalling to think that they are letting people DIE so their stock options will go up.
The movie takes nearly and hour, but you should watch it, it's very EDUCATIONAL and might change your attitude, might even save your life
indirectly. "

unknownjoe wrote on Aug 5, 2009 11:16 AM:

" Thank You professor Kilgore for your heart felt letter from the "Special People" side of the aisle. It was only a matter of time before we heard from the halls of Academentia at EIU. Charleston is a paradigm for the rest of the country. On one side, you have the poor slackjawed local yokels who hold on to their religion and guns and who are contantly reminded of how much education they don't have. On the other side, you have the super elitist progressive "Special People" who think because the have a Phd. in front of their names that they should patronize the same locals whose work pays your salary. The reforms you and your progressive partners in congress and of course YOUR president advocate does nothing to help the people that you espouse to help except to keep them in indentured servitude for life in order to pay for it. The cracks in the health care system will not be fixed by the current legislation under debate. It will however, lay a heavier tax burden on the middle class and working poor..ie.. Those slackjawed, under-educated, religious, gun carrying fanatics that you say are falling through the cracks. As for your inquiry to where the ingenuity, courage, energy, gumption, creativity and pragmatic willingness to experiment went. I will tell you where it went professor. It has been eaten away by the mediocrity that rolls across your lips during every lecture. It is a victim of the "everyone is special mentality" that has completely destroyed our education system. You and your peers who teach that capitalism is bad and socialism is good have created a generation of lazy, ignorant, entitlement adolescents who live at home until they are 30, who consume their parents and drain the system. I see it every day where I work. College age adults who think that showing up is enough to keep their jobs. They are really offended when you require that they actually do some sort of work other than stand around and talk. The barn is not on fire professor Kilgore. But, you know the old saying, "if you repeat a lie loud enough and long enough, people will belive it." "

Matt Toon wrote on Aug 5, 2009 11:44 AM:

" This is a good letter. I agree with it. However, false rumors about the proposed health plan have led millions of people to become quite skeptical and fearful. Citizens fear the unknown. I hope a health plan can be passed; however, if it cannot, an alternative might be to simply put more money (much needed money) into Medicaid and also to expand the age limits for Medicare downward from 65 to either 60 or 62. Then, in a few years perhaps it could be lowered to say 50 or 55. This lowering of the age limit would be a blessing to millions of people, especially the ones who find it difficult to keep or to get a good job after the age of 55 or 60. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 5, 2009 12:55 PM:

" Only an ignorant fool would argue that our health care system isn't broke. "

unknownjoe wrote on Aug 5, 2009 4:10 PM:

" Only an ignorant fool would believe that the largest bureaucratic nightmare in the entire history of the world (The U.S. Government) would be able to manage the healthcare of 300 million people. They couldn't even manage the CARS program for 2 months "

All The Way wrote on Aug 5, 2009 6:29 PM:

" An interesting letter. However, if I recall correctly, the original Harry and Louise ads were put out by the Democrat party espousing the benefits of the "Hillarycare" program. The problems with that program were many. Not the least of which was no one in the health care industry, no providers, doctors, nurses, hospital admins, or dare I say, insurance people, were involved in creating the plan. Mrs. Clinton's panel was made up of lawyers. And the meetings they held were closed door sessions with no minutes or other records available to the public.
Now many believe, myself included, that the problem with the current system, even going back to the '90's, can be linked back to lawyers and frivolous, yet expensive lawsuits. This drove up costs exponentially as now malpractice insurance costs soared. Attempting to stem the possibility of lawsuits arising more and more tests were ordered, driving up costs again. It was, and still is, a never ending cycle.

Now I do not doubt your word on your personal and family health care issues. We all have had them, some extremely devastating. However, the prposed plan, which apparently most legislators can't bother to read, does nothing to correct or improve that situation. According to the President's own CBO it makes the problem worse. Most of his own party can't agree on if they want to be single-payer or not. Even the President's own past statements contradict what he is saying now, so I don't know what to believe.

I feel what needs to be reformed is the way the insurance is handled. Health care itself is fine. The health care system however, is what needs work and that boils down to the insurance problem.

Good luck to you and yours. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 5, 2009 10:08 PM:

" Actually, the PhD goes behind the name. "

Jim1969 wrote on Aug 5, 2009 10:09 PM:

" Want to make some major repairs to the US health care system. How about this:

Urgent care centers in every hospital with an ER.

Doctors and the patient have first and last and only say on treatment.

Eliminate Medicaid.

Eliminate Medicare.

Eliminate private, for profit insurance.

Every working person pays a percent of income for insurance for them and their dependents. Income caps apply.

Every employer pays a percent of their payroll.

Insurance will only cover medically needed tests and procedures. It will also cover "basic" dental and vision care.

Co-pays for medications, tests, hospital stays, etc will be income based.

Medical services for illegals will be emergency only. Once stabilized they will be deported.

Nationwide licensing for doctors, nurses, etc.

Caps on malpractice settlements.

Patient dumping prohibited.

I am sure I could add a few more things, specifically details, but that right there would be a good start and wouldn't take 1000 pages of bill for anyone to try to sift through. "

unknownjoe wrote on Aug 5, 2009 10:39 PM:

" Touche' Harry! "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 6, 2009 6:26 AM:

" With the disgruntled Obama haters latest anemic mantra, wait till 2010 & 2012, I suspect they're all Cubs fans, you know wait till next year. lol! "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:36 AM:

" It appears that some form of health care is about to occur. Certainly the President won't get his way on every issue, as I don't think he really expected to. Like most people, I don't agree with a lot of the provisions in his plan, but the bottom line is that the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies need to be reigned in, and it looks like that is on the near horizon. Not wanting to be let out in the cold, I suspect several Republicans will start coming aboard any reform, just like so many are caving on the Sotomayor confirmation vote. They've had their time to pander to their extremist base, but it's now time to put up or shut up. "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:41 AM:

" However, if I recall correctly, the original Harry and Louise ads were put out by the Democrat party espousing the benefits of the "Hillarycare" program.
---
You do not recall correctly, because, like most right wingers, you don't bother to research anything.
"Harry and Louise" was a television commercial funded by the Health Insurance Association of America (HIAA) (now called "Americas Health Insurance Plans"), a health insurance industry lobbying group, ATTACKING President Clinton's proposed health care plan in 1993.
And it's the "Democratic Party." You got it wrong again. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Aug 6, 2009 10:26 AM:

" OBAMA: SOCIALIST OR A COMMUNIST?

Now BARRY's collecting names for an "enemies list".

I dunno. It sounds pretty MARXIST to me.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/state/stories/DN-cornynflag_06nat.ART.State.Edition1.4bb4d44.html

It's scary to think that your president thinks of hie follow Americans as enemies, doesn't it?

What's next Barry, Gulags? "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 10:38 AM:

" The nation's largest federation of labor organizations has promised to directly engage with boisterous conservative protesters at Democratic town halls during the August recess.
In a memo sent out on Thursday, AFL-CIO President John Sweeney outlined the blueprint for how the union conglomerate would step up recess activities on health care reform and other topics pertinent to the labor community. The document makes clear that Obama allies view the town hall forums as ground zero of the health care debate. It also uses the specter of the infamous 2000 recount "Brooks Brothers" protest to rally its members to the administration's side. "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 10:43 AM:

" The Napa Valley Register, a conservative paper that endorsed John McCain last year, now has a new editorial condemning the health care meeting disruptors:
"The display was unwelcome -- and unsuccessful if it was meant to move health care reform supporters toward considering the concerns of the critics. "Several callers to the Register on Tuesday reported they were repulsed by the aggressive tactics of some members of the crowd.
"To the degree the catcalls, chants and shouts were organized -- and it appears from events around the country that they were -- we strongly suggest that the organizers find more constructive ways to get their message out." "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 11:21 AM:

" Among world health care systems, the U.S. ranks 37th, just behind Costa Rica and slightly ahead of Cuba.
In such vital indicators as doctor-patient ratio, life expectancy, and infant mortality, we fall behind the rest of industrialized humanity, which long ago adopted universal coverage.
In embarrassing contrast, we're stuck with a broken, private-profit apparatus that places insurance/drug company/hospital bottom lines above properly serving an increasingly desperate populace.
We consequently live sickest and die youngest, getting inferior results for the most outlay, with skyrocketing administrative costs.
-- Dennis Rahkonen "

All The Way wrote on Aug 6, 2009 11:38 AM:

" OK, Question, I did not recall correctly. Right there that should tell you that no, I did not research it first. I should have. Also, democrat, democratic, if that's your big contention, sorry, you have too much time on your hands. And remember, that distinction is fairly recent. As far as me being a right-winger, you don't know me, you have no idea of my leanings, or my political affiliation. You like to pigeon hole people based on your perception of a few posts on a new-paper forum. I do notice however, that you did not dispute the actual points of my initial post. Sorry, but your insults are non-staters, but thanks for playing. "

even steven wrote on Aug 6, 2009 12:25 PM:

" The Weekly Standard just busted the Dems. for "astroturfing". They are trying to gin up supporters to attend town hall meetings to counter the grass roots protests by those opposed to this diabolical socialist power-grab being sold as health care reform. Their underhanded tactics aren't working this time around, because average Americans are wise to the Alinsky tactics of the Socialist Non-workers party (formerly known as Democrats). "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 12:54 PM:

" Sorry, Mr. Way, your ridiculous claim that "the problem" is merely frivolous malpractice suits and your unsupported claim that proposed reform "does nothing to correct or improve that situation" flags you as a big old right winger. Right wingers recite right-wing talking points. "

Beaches wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:44 PM:

" I agree that health care isn't working well now, and something needs to change. What I'm not convinced of is the fact that our government can oversee this process better than the current methods. I love the idea of equal healthcare for everyone - anyone who needs an operation will get it, we will have all the tests required to make a good decision, we will be able to get a second opionion, etc. Who is going to pay for this?????? I love the utopia idea, but many years I don't get a raise, and either does my spouse, but the government continues to take a bigger piece of my pay. And please, don't call me a republican, don't call me selfish, I would love to help everyone out, but to lose my lifestyle in the process isn't something I relish. "

Beaches wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:48 PM:

" http://greatdivide.typepad.com/across_the_great_divide/2007/06/why-health-care.html

Read this please and comment if you wish. "

Beaches wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:51 PM:

" The United States outspends the world and ranks near the top in average health measures, but fails to deliver good health care to a large proportion of its population and distributes the cost relatively unfairly, according to the report's measures, leaving it at number 37 in the rankings.
http://forum.stirpes.net/biology-medicine/13784-worlds-health-care-rankings.html

We need to understand the rankings - we rate low because so many of our people have no healthcare. A legitimate issue, but assuming that our quality of care is poor is completely misleading. "

All The Way wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:52 PM:

" Well Mr. Question, I said it was linked, not entirely responsible. You continue to misquote me to bolster your own argument. I won't go as far to say that is dishonest, but disingenuous at the least.

By the way, can you find anything in this monstrosity that takes care of any problem? This morning I learned that there is a provision in the house bill that allows them direct deposit access to your bank account. I have yet to verify this as reading the bill is a daunting task, but that sounds like an excellent solution, doesn't it? Right wing, left wing, right up the middle, you get flagged as nuts if you think this bill has anything it it about health, health care, or improvement of either. From democrats themselves, or is that democratics, this appears to be government control over personal issues. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 6, 2009 2:28 PM:

" Senate Majority Votes to Confirm Sonia Sotomayor to U.S. Supreme Court...

One down and one to go.

Health care reform is the next thing for our president to accomplish. "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:24 PM:

" The public option would drive down the cost of health insurance company gouging, as a step toward what the most of the rest of the civilized world has, single payer. We need a single, national insurance risk pool with private insurance companies, and the billions they divert from actual care, out of it. "

sam adams 52 wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:28 PM:

" Just read 700 of the 1018 pages of HR3200. I have yet to read anything that improves the quality of healthcare. There are, however, provisions for a mountain of red tape and new government agencies. These historically do not aid affordability or quality.

This really is not that complicated or dramatic as both side make it. There are primarily two factors that actually increase the "cost" of health care. These are the high number of lawsuits and a society that does not follow basic preventative health protocols. Throw in a bit of greed on the part of insurance companies and you have my $1200 monthly insurance premiums for my family. Let's see some real reform so that doctors can practice medicine instead of covering their tail all the time. This would require our elected officials (mostly lawyers) to adopt some common sense litigation reform. Next limit the ratio of premiums taken in versus payouts and you have a serious dent in the cost of health care delivery.

I am also tired of the whining about the uninsured. By law, everyone has access to health care. Even those in the country illegally can not be turned away. Are they going to get the red carpet treatment at the Cleveland Clinic? No way, but they have access to health care. I know some of these uninsured, and one in particular smokes like a chiminey and uses an i-phone regularly. Hmmm, better choices might be a good idea as well. Will these be legislated? When do we expect members of society to act in a responsible manner? Before I am called heartless, I do care about those that just can not for whatever reason make things work, and that is why we have Medicaid and Kidcare.

So come on people. Get off the cross someone else needs the wood. Let's start encouraging responsible behavior. Some of the trillions this bill would cost could be used to better educated our kids. "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:42 PM:

" Americans work in low-wage, dead-end jobs in a country that no longer manufactures anything except fraudulent financial instruments and debt. They buy their hope for the future in the form of lottery tickets at the local convenience store. That stores counter displays cans with kids' pictures on them, along with messages begging for change to defer the medical expenses of families who have been bankrupted by their childs disease. Those cans are the product of what Americans like to call "the greatest health care system in the world."
That system, plus wars of aggression, economic piracy and fascist politics, have put the American people squarely on the railroad tracks. Some of us have been interested in pointing out the lights of the engine that is bearing down upon them, but the bulk of the citizenry would rather just watch "American Idol." They have the self-awareness of Paris Hilton, the empathy of Jerry Seinfeld and the brains of Homer Simpson.
Lulled by their daily dope fix of credit-card debt, religious nonsense and knee-jerk militarism, cocooned by their cell phones and iPods, Americans really have no time to spare for anything they can't eat, wear, drive, dance to, play ball with or have sex with. Don't bother them.
These are, in fact, the times that try men's souls. American souls have been tried, sentenced and convicted. But few know it yet, because it hasnt been reported on Fox News. "

father bob wrote on Aug 6, 2009 5:42 PM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 4:24 PM:
" The public option would drive down the cost of health insurance company gouging, as a step toward what the most of the rest of the civilized world has, single payer. We need a single, national insurance risk pool with private insurance companies, and the billions they divert from actual care, out of it. """"

exactly.....if you think the dirty politics and money grabbing is bad now, wait until they start with the energy bill down on the senate floor! billions will pour into politician's hands to kill it. "

The Question wrote on Aug 6, 2009 6:25 PM:

" A CNN anchor today tore down Rick Scott, the founder of an organization that's been funding anti-health care reform protests and the former CEO of a hospital company that, as Sanchez pointed out, paid $1.7 billion to settle charges of overcharging Medicare and Medicaid.
Rick Sanchez started simply, asking Scott, the founder of Conservatives for Patients' Rights, if he takes credit for the recent disruptions at health care reform events. Scott responded, "It'd be nice to, right?" before saying he thought everyone should go to meetings, but "oughta be nicer about it."
Then Sanchez started in on him, describing the charges and fines against Scott's company, the Columbia Hospital Corporation.
"Some would argue, and it would be hard to say they're wrong, that you would be the poster child for everything that's wrong with the greed that has hurt our current health care system," Sanchez said. "

Beaches wrote on Aug 6, 2009 7:13 PM:

" Thank you Sam for your calm, rational contribution to this thread. I agree that the health care professionals need to be driving our health care decisions, not insurance companies or governmental agencies. And I agree about the uninsured, it's a shame, but my pockets are not very deep and the government is already digging close to the bottom. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 6, 2009 8:22 PM:

" DCCC spokeswoman Jennifer Crider issued the following statement in response to Rush Limbaugh's outrageous comments comparing Democrats to members of the Nazi Party and use of the Nazi swastika:

"Rush Limbaugh's comparison of the Democratic Party to the Nazi Party in World War II is as disgusting as it is shocking. Limbaugh's use of the Nazi swastika in attempting to make a tasteless political comparison has no place in the public discourse.

"Just this past weekend, Minority Whip Eric Cantor said that the GOP 'needs' Mr. Limbaugh. He should immediately condemn Limbaugh's hateful rhetoric in the strongest possible terms and encourage Republican Members to do the same.

"At a time when families need real solutions to rebuild the economy and make health care more affordable, Rush Limbaugh is attempting to sidetrack the important debate through his use of symbols that are synonymous with murder and intolerance. Americans deserve better."

Amen! "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:34 PM:

" All t Way:"However, if I recall correctly, the original Harry and Louise ads were put out by the Democrat party espousing the benefits of the "Hillarycare" program."

Sorry AtWay, but you are wrong. Harry and Louise BITTERLY attacked the Clinton plan.

"And the meetings they (Clinton) held were closed door sessions with no minutes or other records available to the public."
You are correct about this; in this regard, they were like the secret "energy" talks that Cheney had for days and days with the oil companies.

Problems "can be linked back to lawyers and frivolous, yet expensive lawsuits"
Not really; the problem is linked to the fact that health insurance companies are linked to Wall Street which daily watches the "medical loss"
data. If "medical loss", now around 79 or 80% in most medical insurance companies, goes up or down a few basis points, the price of the stock -- and the value of the CEO's options -- may soar or fall.

And it is always claimed "more and more tests were ordered". It never seems to occur to people that if the MD practices in a group with a laboratory, THEY PROFIT PERSONALLY in the profit from tests. Let me tell you: It happens RIGHT HERE in "River City": a few years ago I was in SBLHC and had A test: my family physician looked at it, the specialist looked at it and both agreed on the interpretation. End of story! Not Quite: A month later I got a bill from an MD I had never even heard of. I called his office and asked what he had done and was told he TOO had read the test. I asked why, since the test had been well-interpreted, and the answer was that "this week it was HIS TURN to read such tests" -- DESPITE the fact that it had already been well-read. This is outrageous profit-sharing, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAWSUITS. There was no reason whatsoever for this extra bill except it was "HIS TURN TO CASH IN". "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:34 PM:

" UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE SUCCESS STORY OF THE DAY: PATIENTS FORCED TO LIVE IN AGONY AFTER BRITISH AGENCY REFUSES TO PAY FOR PAINKILLING INJECTIONS

TELEGRAPH (Aug 2 2009) Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as 500 each for private treatment.

The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS 33 million.
-----------

Now remember Granny- the Democrats hold the European Health Care Systems in high regards as shinning examples of successful Universal Health Care.

So who's ready for ObamaCare? Granny? Are you ready? Come on now- the governments here to "help" you. What are you afraid of? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:37 PM:

" POLL: PEOPLE STARTING TO APPRECIATE EXISTING AMERICAN HEALTH-CARE SYSTEM

RASMUSSEN (Aug 3 2009) Forty-eight percent (48%) of U.S. voters now rate the U.S. health care system as good or excellent. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that just 19% rate it as poor.

These figures reflect a significant increase in support for the health care system over the past few months. In May, just 35% of adults nationwide rated the system as good or excellent. A year ago, just 29% of Likely Voters rated the system in such positive terms.

The new polling also shows that 80% of those with insurance rate their own coverage as good or excellent. Thats up from 70% in May.
-------------

Nothing like the hostile threat of the horrendous ObamaCare Bill to make people appreciate what they already have. Good work Barry. You are a uniter after all "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:41 PM:

" Americans work in low-wage, dead-end jobs in a country that no longer manufactures anything except fraudulent financial instruments and debt.
-----------------

Wah wah wah wah...more victimology. "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 6, 2009 9:48 PM:

" Beaches has an unbelievable elitist point of view:"We need to understand the rankings - we rate low because so many of our people have no healthcare. A legitimate issue, but assuming that our quality of care is poor is completely misleading. "

In other words, the people who do not have healthcare don't count; don't let them clutter up our "rich guy" average.

I wouldn't wish Beaches any bad luck, but if he happened to lose his job and his healthcare, I wouldn't weep for him for he doesn't even count against our average. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 6, 2009 10:13 PM:

" PELOSI: BEWARE OF TOWNHALL ASTROTURFERS CARRYING SWASTIKAS

VIDEO: http://tinyurl.com/mtnb7h

I have yet to see any of the townhall opponents of ObamaCare carrying swastikas. But I have no doubt that the SEIU Union thugs and ACORN will plant some in the audiences ASAP. Wait for it. "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 6, 2009 10:14 PM:

" All the Way deplores:"...that allows them direct deposit access to your bank account."

All the Way should come on up out of the 20th century... We get 5 payments each month by direct deposit and an additional 3 once a year. Very convenient. From BOTH public AND private sources. Much
more convenient than drives to the bank.
All the Way should just get up his courage and try electronic service. It really DOES WORK. "

unknownjoe wrote on Aug 6, 2009 10:22 PM:

" Here is and idea! Why don't our law makers write a bill that levys a 10 percent tax on all campaign contributions to anyone running for a federal public office? That should run into the billions of dollars. Maybe that would level the playing field a bit. "

zeke wrote on Aug 7, 2009 2:35 AM:

" Potter and the ?. lol. Still at the old game. You should see if the J-G should get you in on their insurance since you both obviously live on here. Sad.

Of course, assuming the basements you live in typing away 24-7 don't already provide assistance from the rest of us. Maybe you make your living off our tax dollars in other ways? So you are used to getting something for nothing.

Our country already has universal health care. It is Medicaid,Medicare, the VA system and the Indian Health Care system. Medicare will be bankrupt which is obviously not a concern to folks completely IGNORANT of economics, the most basic economics I might add.

Medicaid, yes, that works well doesn't it. The letter writer is not clear but there is NO private insurer or group insurance plan that is "months" behind in their payments to their network doctors. The GOVERNMENT RUN Medicaid program is though and will be because they are unwilling to address flaws in the system, um, kinda like most government run systems.

Oh, don't get me wrong, health care reform is needed in this country but not by the people already causing the problems in the first place. The health care delivery system in this country has been over burdened by legal and bureaucratic interference that has completely distorted the way the market system is supposed to work.

Then these same jerks who continually toss a wrench into the works, and make a huge little profit on their own, marvel at why things are so messed up.

Fix Medicare, fix Medicaid, tort reform first before trying to ditch an innovative, popular(sorry it is!), and workable system.

But, it is not about healthcare or fixing our system for the public. Its about potter, ? and their ilk sticking it to the rest of us for whatever reason that keeps their sorry selves posting non-stop on this website making any INTELLIGENT conversation about said topics possible.

Health care reform will come about when people like Potter and the Question get a life. We may be doomed. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 7, 2009 6:33 AM:

" Police officers were called to calm down an unruly crowd outside a health care reform town hall meeting in downtown Tampa, Florida on Thursday evening, according to local news reports.

Angry protesters screamed, yelled and banged on windows as officers hurried to guard the entrances to the facility.

Many of the hundreds of protesters said that they had been inspired by a conservative activist group promoted by Fox News host Glenn Beck and some received emails from the county Republican party, according to the St. Petersburg Times:

Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points to challenge supporters.

Spontaneous huh? More like thuggery promoted by non other that Fox news, who have moved well beyond reporting the news and are now trying to influence public discourse and policy. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 7, 2009 6:46 AM:

" Congressman Steve Kagen, (D-Wisc.) found himself interrupted during a town hall meeting on health care on Thursday evening which, considering the boisterous protests going on at these events all week, wasn't much of a surprise.

But towards the end of the Wisconsin Democrat's health care forum something a bit peculiar happened. A woman who initially identified herself as "just a mom from a few blocks away" who was "not affiliated with a political party" was outed by a reporter as a GOP operative who worked for Kagen's election opponent John Gard as well as the Republican Party of Wisconsin and the Republican National Committee.
Sam Stein-

Just a mom from a few blocks away! The GOP deception continues.... "

Bps wrote on Aug 7, 2009 7:30 AM:

" Mike Ross is the chairman of the Blue Dog Democrats. Ross says:

"It's not that the American people do not want healthcare reform. They want the right kind of reform and they don't want it to be rushed," Ross said.

http://tinyurl.com/matytz

Makes sense to me. Take the time to do it right and stop this rush to do the wrong things. "

sam adams 52 wrote on Aug 7, 2009 8:07 AM:

" Thanks for the comment Beaches. The most saddening part of this thread is that out of 30 or 35 posts all but a handfull are just spouting the rhetoric you listen to all day on cable news. Come on people use that brain you were given. Talk to seniors and vets that have relied on government run healthcare. Look at your explaination of benefits next time you visit the doctor. Ask questions of your representatives and don't let them get by with talking points. Read the darn bill!

This should not be a partisan issue. It affects all of us and future generations. I worry most about the future of my young children, and we need to hold the politicans responsible for protecting and securing that future. "

Beaches wrote on Aug 7, 2009 8:23 AM:

" The Question: You write interesting posts, but where is the content? Lots of opinion, but little facts to back it up. You do a wonderful job of pigeon-holing everyone and deciding who is bad and good, I'm glad your world is that clear cut. "

Bps wrote on Aug 7, 2009 9:05 AM:

" House Financial Services Committee hearing, Sept. 10, 2003:

Rep. Barney Frank (D., Mass.): I worry, frankly, that there's a tension here. The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness, the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disaster scenarios.

Senate Banking Committee, Oct. 16, 2003:

Sen. Charles Schumer (D., N.Y.): And my worry is that we're using the recent safety and soundness concerns, particularly with Freddie, and with a poor regulator, as a straw man to curtail Fannie and Freddie's mission. And I don't think there is any doubt that there are some in the administration who don't believe in Fannie and Freddie altogether, say let the private sector do it. That would be sort of an ideological position.

House Financial Services Committee hearing, Sept. 25, 2003:

Rep. Frank: I do think I do not want the same kind of focus on safety and soundness that we have in OCC [Office of the Comptroller of the Currency] and OTS [Office of Thrift Supervision]. I want to roll the dice a little bit more in this situation towards subsidized housing.

Well Barney, you and your friends rolled the dice and we the people get to suffer through and pay for your mistakes:
________________

http://tinyurl.com/lan4f4

Fannie Mae, the largest provider of U.S. home mortgage funding, on Thursday reported a $14.8 billion quarterly net loss that it said would force it to go to the U.S. Treasury trough a third time for money to stay in business.

Washington-based Fannie Mae said its regulator requested $10.7 billion from the Treasury to erase a deficit in its net worth, bringing total draws under a senior preferred stock purchase program to $45.9 billion.

The $14.8 billion loss compares with a $2.3 billion loss in the same quarter a year ago and a $23.2 billion loss in the first quarter.
----------------

Since the Dummy-crats were so right on what a majority point to as the tipping point into our current depression, what makes anybody believe their actions over the last six months arent more of the same?

What makes anybody believe that the current Dummy-crats that gave us the Fannie and Freddy mess can do anything right for our health care?

What makes anybody believe that the current Dummy-crats that gave us the Fannie and Freddy mess can do anything right for our health care?

Isn't it more probable that it is just another boondoggle? "

father bob wrote on Aug 7, 2009 9:07 AM:

" Beaches wrote on Aug 6, 2009 1:51 PM:
" A legitimate issue, but assuming that our quality of care is poor is completely misleading. """"""

explain infant mortality rates in the US and why third world countries outrank us?

visit any nursing home

talk to veterans

visit an ER and expect service... "

sam adams 52 wrote on Aug 7, 2009 9:58 AM:

" Hey Father Bob, i really doubt that we have a higher infant mortality rate than some 3rd world countries. But lets say you did read that fact in some bathroom. Think about it...if 100,000 babies are born in the U.S. and 10,000 die you have a 10% mortality rate. If there are 1,000,000 born in India and 10,000 die you have a 1% rate. So they have better healt care because they pop out kids like gumball machines?

Regarding the VA and nursing home issue, you just made my point. These are areas that are typically run with government oversight.

Think people! Please. "

even steven wrote on Aug 7, 2009 10:52 AM:

" Obama's labor thugs vs. mom and pop protestors

The pushback by Democrats against conservative activists who have been flooding health care town halls across the country is starting to get ugly. Organized labor has now entered the fray, promising to counter conservatives at the events.

Sure enough, labor thugs savagely beat a conservative activist after a town hall meeting put on by Missouri's Russ Carnahan. "

medic57 wrote on Aug 7, 2009 11:58 AM:

" unknownjoe wrote on Aug 5, 2009 4:10 PM:

" Only an ignorant fool would believe that the largest bureaucratic nightmare in the entire history of the world (The U.S. Government) would be able to manage the healthcare of 300 million people. They couldn't even manage the CARS program for 2 months "

It also took FEMA, 5 days to get water to the Superdome during Katrina, and they want to run helth care for 300 million people. "

Danny Boy wrote on Aug 7, 2009 3:05 PM:

" Matt Toon Wrote:
---------------------------------------
Medicare downward from 65 to either 60 or 62. Then, in a few years perhaps it could be lowered to say 50 or 55. This lowering of the age limit would be a blessing to millions of people, especially the ones who find it difficult to keep or to get a good job after the age of 55 or 60. "
---------------------------------------

I agree 100%.....I don't have to say anything now, thanks Matt!! "

Beaches wrote on Aug 7, 2009 3:19 PM:

" Father Bob - we can all find stats to back us up, but we need to look at the real numbers to see what is happening. I don't think the US is always right, but I don't think we are as horrible as many would like to believe. How many nursing homes have you been to in other countries? I've been to good ones here and bad ones. I've talked to family members who live overseas and heard horror stories about their healthcare options, and I've heard good things too. It's not black and white.

I also think it would help to keep politics out of this. I don't care who gets it right, just that we do get it right. Democrats have some great ideas, Republicans have some great ideas - Americans need to work together - not point fingers and call names - that moves nothing forward. It's a bully tactic. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 7, 2009 3:51 PM:

" VIDEO: OBAMA UNION THUGS TRY TO SET OBAMA-CARE OPPONENTS STRAIGHT

WATCH THE OBAMA THUGS IN ACTION FOLKS:

http://tinyurl.com/lqlxeb

The criminals in purple shirts are members of the SEIU Union who were organized to intimidate American citizens who are trying to exercising their right to voice their opinions at public townhalls across this country. This aggressive Far-Left militant activist attitude is on displayed in here day after day. So it's no surprise that violence would inevitably ensue. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 7, 2009 5:13 PM:

" Think about it...if 100,000 babies are born in the U.S. and 10,000 die you have a 10% mortality rate. If there are 1,000,000 born in India and 10,000 die you have a 1% rate.

Sorry to jump in here fb, but what in the heck are you talking about, sam?

I'm guessing math is not your strong suit. lol! "

Rohn Gordon wrote on Aug 7, 2009 6:48 PM:

" Sam you just made yourself look silly. It matters NOT how many kids are spit out, the numbers you just used shows that that would be a higher % of deaths in the USA. Stick to only talking not trying math. "

The Question wrote on Aug 7, 2009 7:12 PM:

" Texas GOP Sen. John Cornyn told Obama: "By requesting citizens send 'fishy' e-mails to the White House, it is inevitable that the names, e-mail addresses, IP addresses and private speech of U.S. citizens will be reported to the White House. You should not be surprised that these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data collection program."
---
I.e., don't email the White House or the boogeyman will get you! THIS from the party that cheered when they learned that their fascist hero Bush had instituted a MASSIVE, SECRET campaign to SPY ON AMERICAN CITIZENS.
They are masters of psychological projection. Whenever a Republican accuses you of something awful, it's either an action they have ALREADY taken or LONG to take. That's why so many of them blathered on and on about Bill Clinton's sex scandal while they paid hookers or chased teenage boys. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 7, 2009 8:42 PM:

" It's been a great month so far for the Democratic party:

First former Democratic President Bill Clinton comes through to get the two journalists freed from North Korea (of course the right wingers go ballistic.... notorious prostitute customer turned Republican pundit Dick Morris said they should have gone to prison)....

Obama gets his nominee appointed to the SC....

Unemployment numbers actually go down a bit....

Stock market continues to improve....

Rush Limbaugh finally totally loses it and starts ranting about Obama being a Nazi (of course no Republican repudiate his unholy rants)....

Russian born Birther Queen gets outed for trying to pass off a phony Kenyan birth certificate for Obama....

Obamas poll numbers close to 60 again...

Sarah Palin finally shuts up (yea)....

Mel Martinez, Florida Republican quits his job over the racist actions by his fellow Pubs on the Sotomayor nomination vote (actually it probably had more to do with fear from the NRA than outright racism)...

Next hurdle: health care reform (it's coming)

There's more, but the month is young.

\ Once again, Happy Birthday, Mr. President. "

The Question wrote on Aug 8, 2009 5:18 AM:

" That brainless lying motor-mouth Quitter Queen Sarah Palin is now out claiming that what she calls Obama's "death panel" might decide to kill her Down syndrome baby. I kid you not.
Palin is playing the victim again, as always, even if she has to invent her own ridiculous fictional scenarios to do it. That's all she's got -- her own whining, phony victimhood, and a bizarre sense of resentment and entitlement to share with her angry ignoramus fans. "

The Question wrote on Aug 8, 2009 1:09 PM:

" Rep. Brian Baird (D-WA) received a fax containing the Obama-as-Joker picture and this message: "Death to All Marxists! Foreign and Domestic!" "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 8, 2009 2:11 PM:

" The Service Employers International Union was, as one aide put it, "deluged" with calls on Friday after several conservative media outlets accused the organization of trying to assault demonstrators who had showed up to protest Obama's health care agenda. Making it even scarier for union employees, the address of the union's St. Louis headquarters was mentioned on air by conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh.

Callers who reached both the front desk and the communications department compared the union officials to Nazis, union aides say. On Twitter, organizers of the town hall protest urged people to take pictures and write down the license plate numbers of attending SEIU officials. More alarming than anything else, angry callers and protesters pledged to take up arms against the union.

It's getting ugly out there folks. The mob mentality seems to have taken over the protesters. Being egged on by the likes of Limbaugh and Fox doesn't help. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 8, 2009 5:51 PM:

" Union officials continued to receive a barrage of threats on Friday evening and into Saturday punctuated by warnings that if organizers were sent to counter-demonstrate at health care town halls they would be met with violence.

An official with the AFL-CIO, a federation of labor organizations, passed on what he described as a "pretty direct threat" to those union hands who were showing up to balance out anti-Obama demonstrations being waged at local Democratic forums.

"I will be going to a local town hall this weekend, all you union members BEWARE!" an emailer wrote at 9:40 Saturday morning. "We will be waiting for you. better make sure you have arrangements with your local ER. today is the day when the goon meets the gun. see you there.
Sam Stein-

Like I said, the unhinged protesters are going a little nutzo... "

All The Way wrote on Aug 8, 2009 5:53 PM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 8, 2009 5:18 AM:

Palin is playing the victim again, as always, even if she has to invent her own ridiculous fictional scenarios to do it.

And you're not? "

Mama says wrote on Aug 8, 2009 6:56 PM:

" I was notified June I would have to pay for insulin to tune of $99 a bottle.
I had medicare and that costs $96/month.
I am on $770 worth of medication for diabetes, congestive heart failure, copd, recovering from strokes, asthma, and other issues. I could no longer walk into stores. Finally after ten years could qualify for a batterypower chair in home. No help for disabled on the lifts for vehicles. I can DRIVE just not WALK. I can stand and go few steps which do so can keep doing that much and trying to go farther and longer but after ten years, not think it will happen. Finally contacting the senior center have Part D and on low income my copayments are cheaper, and now with a medical supplier sends to my home and in 3 months prescriptions for less all the medications are $1.30 or $3.30 for namebrands, much improvement.
WHY DOESN'T THE GOVERNMENT JUST USE THIS SYSTEM FOR US. I asked at two of the pharmacy about their sign stating medications 3 months $10, said YOU CANNOT QUALIFY. The government big moneymakers not fly jets, expensive meals out, lodgings, no limo services,
live on what poorer people live on.
By the time we pay utilities, taxes, insurance on home, water,and food we are broke. The gas for vehicle finishes what have left. WHY couldn't we save for retirement? TOO MANY ILLNESS'S NOT COVERED with insurances.
It was not an easy road just to get here
We never took food stamps, never could qualify because we worked. We never made but $74 more than the low income level stated. That knocked out food stamps and help.

Now reading where to help seniors die with dignity. Makes me think of the movie about Green Soylent, where bodies were being groundup into food. I about fainted when saw that movie.

It may be closer than we think. "

unknownjoe wrote on Aug 8, 2009 11:58 PM:

" You know, after a long day of sharpening my long knives, shinning my boots, cleaning my guns and praying to my picture of Sarah Palin, I opened up the ole bible for some real eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth stuff to calm my thoughts for the evening. You know, cuz that's what us whitey whitey white boy oppressors do. As I was reading I began to ponder why I was so opposed to health care reform. Why was there so much wailing and knashing of teeth on my part. So, here is what I came up with. When I left active service 4 years ago I received extended Tri-care for six months courtesy of Uncle Sam. I was overjoyed that Sammie extended me this courtesy. I thought, this is great, it will give me time to find a job that has health care benefits. We went to a doctor that came highly recommended and low and behold, he didnt take Tri-care. Come to find out, only one Dr. within 50 miles took patients on Tri-care. We wondered why and we found out it was because Tri-care took to long to pay. So it seems the choice was made for us. After six months Tri-care ran out. It was difficult to find a job here in coles county that offered benefits, but I continued to look. Everyone in my household was healthy at the time. So, I had a bit to find something. Well, my Wife and I found out we were pregnant. This threw a wrench in my plans and I didnt know what to do. So, setting aside my experience with Tri-care (and some of you will get a kick out of this) I turned once again to the government through All Kids. After filling out the paperwork my family and I were on All Kids. We called the Dr. that delivered our third child and the answer was NO we don't take All Kids, because? They were too slow to pay. We called around and found a Dr. in the area that took All Kids. Granted not my first choice but we had to have someone. I redoubled my efforts to find a job with benefits and found one, but, I wouldnt get health care until I finished my probationary period so we drove on with All Kids. My wife, in her late thirties, got the most basic prenatal care possible. Later we would come to find that she had gestational diabetes and was never treated for that endangering her life and the life of the baby. We had to go to the local hospital because they took All Kids, again not our choice. When my child was born they had to perform a c-section because she was so large from the diabetes. Oh no, it gets better. Eight months later, we find that we are pregnant again. This time, we fall under my employer provided insurance plan. We were able to choose the Dr and the hospital we wanted. My wife had gestational diabetes again, but she was actually treated for it. She had to have a c-section again and our current Dr found shody workmanship left over from the previous c-section and fixed it. Our baby was born at a good weight, my wife was much more comfortable with this pregnancy and we were introduced to an outstanding pediatrician. So you ask, what's the problem Joe, sounds like everything worked out in the end. Well; my employer provided insurance paid everything but my small deductible. I am getting collection service calls for bills from three years ago that were supposed to be paid by All Kids. Because? they are too slow to pay. In conclusion; The government had two bites at the apple to gain my trust with their programs that basically could have killed my wife and child. Giving them a third opportunity would be insane, like doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. I am very happy with the health care choices that are afforded to me because of my job. I don't want that to change. The great Obama himself has said that I can keep my coverage if I like it. I am not confident in that statement. Is it worth going to barricades over. You Betcha! "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 7:13 AM:

" Rachel Maddow reports on the "town halls gone wild" that industry backed astroturf groups like Americans for Prosperity are involved in disrupting.

Maddow: This is orchestrated outrage. There is a script for this stuff that was written before these events happened and that appears to be instructions to people to shut down these efforts at civic discourse. The web site Think Progress obtained a leaked memo from a group that calls itself Right Principles. The three page memo details how protesters should behave at town hall events.

Under the heading "Inside the Hall" it says:

You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early. If he blames Bush for something or offers other excuses -- call him on it, yell back and have someone else tallow-up with a shout-out. The goal is to rattle him.

When the formal Q&A session begins get all your hands up and keep them up.... The balance of the group should applaud when the question is asked, further putting the Rep on the defensive.

Who's giving these rent-a-mob instructions like this? Well that memo was written by a man named Bob MacGuffie. Bob McGuffie is associated with an organization called Freedom Works. Freedom Works is a Washington DC lobbying firm, run by former Republican Majority leader Dick Armey.

Corporate lobbyists are organizing far right hooligan tactics to disrupt civic meetings about health care reform. This is the organized use of intimidation as a political tool in the United States, and I don't mean intimidation euphemistically. I mean literal intimidation.

Oh yes, the right side says these are just dissatisfied common folks. Who would have thought the right wingers would resort to the very sort of thing they've criticised for years. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 7:40 AM:

" Here we go again. Sarah keeps a low profile for about 2 days. Unable to keep her enormous mouth shut any longer, she comes with another of her ignorant statements. This time it's about Obama's plan for killing her baby. This is the kind of uninformed rhetoric that makes her so popular with the uneducated and uninformed folks. Sarah spits out this sort of nonsense and they eat it up.

Sarah whines (as TQ says, making her a victim once again) about how the media should leave her kids out of it, and yet she drags another one into the spotlight.

One astute blogger put it this way:

It is classic propaganda to accuse your opponent of the very thing you are guilty of. In this case it is the Republicans who are trying to block health care.... especially neonatal care for uninsured expectant mothers.

I have to wonder if Sarah actually sees the irony in her latest rant? "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 10:28 AM:

" Anyone remember the outrage from the right over the Vietnam era protesting?

Those events spawned the term "American, love it or leave it". As well as some often repeated sayings from the now disgraced Republican VP, Spiro Agnew.

If it was wrong for those folks to protest our governments actions then, why is it not wrong for the health care protesters to disrupt public meetings with their mob behavior.

I guess it fair to say to those rabble rousers, America, love it or leave it. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 10:39 AM:

" Talking Points Memo and Democracy for New Mexico are reporting that a Republican activist named Scott Oskay has twittered a request to his fellow right wing protesters, asking them to bring guns to a healthcare town hall planned by Representative Martin Heinrich for August 22, 2009.

Mr. Oskay then goes on to say that if members of ACORN or the SEIU union try to counter-demonstrate in support of healthcare reform, right wing protesters should: "stop being peaceful, and hurt them. Badly."

I have to ask the Republicans who blog in Virginia a question: what do you imagine will happen to the Republican Party if a group of right wing protesters guns down a group of unarmed union members? How do you think such an action will be perceived by the American public?

Time is running out for the Republican Party's leadership to regain control of this situation.
The Richmonder-

The mob mentality rabble rousers are getting nuttier by the day. Oh yeah, that bunch of hot heads need to be armed now. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 1:12 PM:

" Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich defended the bizarre claim by former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin that the president's health care plan would result in a "death panel" that could kill her Down Syndrome son.

"You are asking us to trust the government," Gingrich declared on ABC's "This Week." "You are asking us to decide to believe the government should be trusted."

"Communal standards historically is a very dangerous concept," he added.

Reminded by host George Stephanopoulos that there was no such thing as communal standards in any health care bill -- just language that would allow for optional Medicare consultations on end of life decisions -- Gingrich grew a bit flummoxed.

The GOP loony tunes paranoia is spreading. Even the ethically challenged Gingrich seems to be buying in. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 3:56 PM:

" WASHINGTON POST: COME TO THINK OF IT, OBAMA-CARE'S END-OF-LIFE PROVISIONS *ARE* WORRISOME AFTER ALL!

'UNDUE INFLUENCE'

WASHINGTON POST (Aug 8 2009) Section 1233 of the health-care bill drafted in the Democratic-led House, however, addresses compassionate goals in disconcerting proximity to fiscal ones. Supporters protest that they're just trying to facilitate choice -- even if patients opt for expensive life-prolonging care. I think they protest too much: If it's all about obviating suffering, emotional or physical, what's it doing in a measure to "bend the curve" on health-care costs?

Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren't quite "purely voluntary,"....."purely voluntary" means "not unless the patient requests one." Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive -- money -- to do so. Indeed, that's an incentive to insist.

Patients may refuse without penalty, but many will bow to white-coated authority. Once they're in the meeting, the bill does permit "formulation" of a plug-pulling order right then and there.

What's more, Section 1233 dictates, at some length, the content of the consultation. The doctor "shall" discuss "advanced care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to"; "an explanation of . . . living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses" (even though these are legal, not medical, instruments); and "a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families." The doctor "shall" explain that Medicare pays for hospice care (hint, hint).
--------------

Now remember folks; The faceless bureaucrats in Government really do "care" about your best health care options- not about cutting costs.

Honestly they do.

What? Why WOULDN'T you trust them? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:10 PM:

" The only reason End-Of-Life provisions are included in the proposed Health Care Bill in the first place is to advance cost cutting measures- pure and simple. And these proposals would now give financial incentives to doctors to *initiate* and *advance* said cost cutting "Counseling" under the innocuous guise of "Advanced Care Planning".
This is NOT about the government's concern over your best health care- it's about the government's foremost priority of reducing costs by cutting down on expensive end-of-life procedures.
And let us not forget that the proponents of ObamaCare also dishonestly claim that you can keep your private insurance- if you wish. What they conveniently don't mention is that this Bill would effectively drive the private insurers out of business in a few short years. And you would then be forced into their "optional" State-ran Health Care Plan- whether you like it or not. "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:17 PM:

" 7x6z9:"I have yet to see any of the townhall opponents of ObamaCare carrying swastikas."

SEVEN, see your OPTOMETRIST AT ONCE!!!!!
Do NOT, Do NOT drive your car; have someone transport you and lead you into the office!!!!!!!!! "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:21 PM:

" medic57:"It also took FEMA, 5 days to get water to the Superdome during Katrina,"

Thank you medic57 for reminding us of the magnificent incompetencies of the BUSH administration.
"Great job, Brownie." "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:23 PM:

" 7X6Z9:"
What they conveniently don't mention is that this Bill would effectively drive the private insurers out of business in a few short years."

7X, how can you be do unkind? If the private insurers are doing the fantastic job so many claim in this column, WHY would ANY of them abandon them?????? "

The Question wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:41 PM:

" Glenn Beck "joked" about poisoning and murdering Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi on Thursday's edition of "The Glenn Beck Program."
Ha ha. I will never understand right-wing humor, perhaps because it isn't humor but it is psychotic. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:52 PM:

" Show me Coggy. Show me the Townhall Protesters who were carrying swastikas BEFORE Pelois made that claim. Not Obama Union thugs displaying them AFTER Pelosi made that false claim- but before. Show me proof Coggy. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 5:08 PM:

" LIB RADIO TALKER MIKE MALLOY CALLS FOR GLENN BECK TO COMMIT SUICIDE ON AIR

Radio Equalizer.com - Heard during his Agu 4 2009 program, it's the second time in a week that the former WLS/ Chicago talker has called for the death of one of his political opponents. Earlier, he said he hoped Rush Limbaugh would "choke to death".

TRANSCRIPT: MALLOY- "I have a good news to report; Glenn Beck appears closer to suicide - I'm hoping that he does it on camera; suicide is rampant in his family, and given his alcoholism and his tendencies towards self-destruction, I am only hoping that when Glen Beck does put a gun to his head and pulls the trigger, that it will be on television, because somebody will capture it on YouTube and it will be the most popular video for months."
--------------

Ah yes- Liberal double standards. Eh Question? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 6:18 PM:

" POLL: 68% OF VOTERS RATE THEIR HEALTH COVERAGE AS GOOD OR EXCELLENT

RASMUSSEN (Aug 7 2009) The most important fundamental is that 68% of American voters have health-insurance coverage they rate good or excellent.

Adding to President Barack Obama's challenge as he sells health-care reform to the public is the fact that most voters are skeptical about the government's ability to do anything well. While the president says his plan will reduce costs, 53% believe it will have the opposite effect.

Theres also the reality that 74% of voters rate the quality of care they now receive as good or excellent. And 50% fear that if Congress passes health-care reform, it will lead to a decline in the quality of that care.

78% believe passage of the current congressional health-care proposals is likely to mean higher taxes for the middle class.
------------

Silly people- they obviously don't know what's good for them- like Obama does. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 6:54 PM:

" Former Bush strategist Matthew Dowd, who was something of a reliable GOP heretic during the 2008 campaign, offered another off-message moment on Sunday when he warned that the Republican Party was playing with fire on health care.

Appearing on ABC's "This Week," Dowd cautioned conservatives to not go too far in pushing back against Obama's agenda, lest they be blamed for actually preventing people from getting better health care coverage.

"I think the Republicans soon have to be careful of something," Dowd said. "I know Republicans are all patting themselves on the back and saying, "We've got the Democrats on the run, Obama on the run.' I don't think it's necessarily a good political place to be in by November if you've defeated any health care reform."
Sam Stein-

If the GOP keeps it up 2010 will be a repeat of 2008. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 9, 2009 7:08 PM:

" I don't claim to know the full stories behind the variety of senior citizens who have been recruited to disrupt these town halls, but one thing is clear. They're participating in a corporate lobbyist-driven campaign to prevent the rest of us from acquiring the same affordable, reliable public health care they enjoy. In other words, their government-run health care is excellent. So excellent that it can't be shared. And they're so intensely motivated in this selfishness that they're volunteering their time to infiltrate town hall meetings and loudly ambush public officials at the request of lobbyists who are very simply lying to and exploiting them.
Bob Cesca-

Like the elderly woman wrote to the president, "keep the government's hands off my Medicare". "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 8:03 PM:

" DEATH PANELS? WHAT DEATH PANELS? OH, THOSE DEATH PANELS

Palin's "Death Panel" comment was in reference to the term "level of productivity in society" as espoused by Obama Health Czar and key Obama health care adviser Dr. Ezekial Emanuel (brother of Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel).

Let's take a look at some more of Obama's Health Care Policy Adviser's idea's on health care reform:

DR EMANUEL (OBAMA HEALTH CARE ARCHITECT):

"Services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

http://tinyurl.com/l3knuk
-------------

DR EMANUEL (OBAMA HEALTH CARE ARCHITECT):

"When implemented, the Complete Lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated. The Complete Lives system justifies preference to younger people because of priority to the worst-off rather than instrumental value."

"Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. Treating 65-year-olds differently because of stereotypes or falsehoods would be ageist; treating them differently because they have already had more life-years is not."

http://tinyurl.com/lhdjtq
------------

AND THIS FROM CASS SUNSTEIN (OBAMA'S HEAD OF THE WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF INFORMATION AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS):

"I urge that the government should indeed focus on life-years rather than lives. A program that saves young people produces more welfare than one that saves old people."

http://tinyurl.com/l4m8dp
--------------

Gee- now where on earth did Palin ever get the crazy notion that the Obama Administration was inclined to ration health care based on level of productivity in society?

Oh yeah- from the Obama Administration's very own words.

Move along folks- nothing to see here......... "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 8:33 PM:

" THE FATAL FLAW OF OBAMACARE

TIME (Aug 17 2009) So the system is an unsustainable disaster, but you can keep your piece of it if you want. And the Democrats wonder why selling health-care reform to the public has been so hard?

Again and again, their effort has brought us into a land of paradoxes. Public skepticism is warranted when the President promises to cut costs while simultaneously providing coverage to nearly 50 million uninsured people. It is even more warranted when his congressional allies seek to raise taxes to pay for all the new spending that this cost-cutting entails. We aren't talking about short-term spending either; this isn't a trillion-dollar investment in a new system that will ultimately save money. The Congressional Budget Office says the leading health-care-reform proposals will increase health-care spending and make the budget harder to balance in the long run. Yet saving money is the President's principal stated rationale for reform.
------------------

Any of you Obama Lap Dogs Care to explain these little paradoxes of ObamaCare?

Do you feel brave Harry? How about you Question? Uhm....Coggy? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 8:54 PM:

" If the GOP keeps it up 2010 will be a repeat of 2008.

Want to bet on that Harry? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 9:48 PM:

" BBC: U.K. HEALTH CARE WAIT TIMES

- 8 MONTHS FOR CATARACT SURGERY

- 11 MONTHS FOR A HIP REPLACEMENT

- 12 MONTHS FOR A KNEE REPLACEMENT

- 5 MONTHS TO REPAIR A SLIPPED DISC

- 5 MONTHS FOR A HERNIA REPAIR

----------------

Mmmm mmmm! Let's get some of that wonderful Government-run Universal Health Care here in the U.S!

Looks like fun- doesn't it folks?

Oh and- according to the Congressional Budget Office it's only going to put us several trillion dollars MORE in debt for the next foreseeable decades!......which is why we have to pass it right away?......or something.....?

Help me out here Harry- can you explain it to the folks? How about you Question? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 9, 2009 10:38 PM:

" ELECTIVE SURGERY WAIT TIMES LONGER THAN 4 MONTHS. SOCIALIZED HEALTH-CARE VERSUS U.S.

BRITAIN - 38%

CANADA - 27%

NEW ZEALAND - 26%

AUSTRALIA - 23%

UNITED STATES - 5%

(Source- Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development 2001)
-----------------

These are the National Health Care Plans that ObamaCare will be modeled after, folks. So relax.

What could possibly go wrong? "

Beaches wrote on Aug 10, 2009 5:26 AM:

" I appreciate legitimate information being shared on the blogs, but the fact that his serious healthcare debate (which is valuable) became reduced to an us against them debate on party lines is exactly the problem we face in the United States. I DON'T CARE WHO MESSED IT UP! I want things fixed. If we all point fingers and try to one-up each other, then we will never move forward. We are acting like grade school bullies trying to have the last word and the loudest voice. "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 6:55 AM:

" Josh Marshall notes that the Teabaggers say they want their country back. But Afro-Arab socialists have only had it for like 6 months. Can't they wait their turn? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 10, 2009 7:41 AM:

" ELDERLY LEFT AT RISK BY NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE BIDDING WARS TO FIND CHEAPEST CARE WITH REVERSE AUCTIONS

THE TIMES (June 1 2009) An online auction system developed for councils to buy cheap wheelie bins and stationery is being used to buy end-of-life and dementia care for vulnerable elderly people.

The NHS in London has held a series of 30 "reverse e-auctions", where bids are driven down instead of up, for 195 million worth of contracts for palliative and dementia care for patients leaving hospital.

Companies who took part in the London NHS auction told The Times that they were asked hardly any questions about the quality of palliative or dementia care that they provided, beyond whether they complied with minimum standards.

During the e-auction, companies were invited to reduce their prices for one bed with round-the-clock specialist care for one week by 8 a time.
---------------

Take a good hard look folks. Britain's National Health Service is a prime example of Universal Health Care, and it's the prime model for ObamaCare. It's hardly surprising that the Obama Administration is trying to rush this disastrous clusterfark into law as quickly as possible. They know that the longer this God-awful legislation takes- the more the likelihood that the public will become aware of the inevitable outcome. And once this bureaucratic train wreck becomes law- it will be impossible to reverse. Wake up America. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 10, 2009 8:53 AM:

" Beaches- you are missing the point here. If we truly want to fix the problems with health care in this country then we should be speaking out against the proposals that the DEMOCRATS are trying to ramrod into law as fast as they can in an unjustifiable haste. And WHY are OBAMA and the DEMOCRATS trying to pass this disaster ASAP? Because they really believe it will lower the cost of health care? Well....no. You see, The Congressional Budget Office has stated (several times now) that ObamaCare in it's many proposed forms, will actually cause health care prices to sky-rocket. Do you think the Congressional Democrats are unaware of that? Hardly. Well then, if they KNOW their proposals actually undermine their primary justification of cost-cutting, then what is their really motivation here? Simple. POLITICAL POWER. Specifically DEMOCRAT PARTISAN POWER. National Health Care will grow government bureaucracy to an alarming size, including the health care unions, like SEIU. And those entities are overwhelmingly part in parcel of the Democrat Machine. So you see Beaches- it is impossible to remove the partisanship from the Obama Administrations Health Care plans. That would be akin to making water something other than wet. "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 8:54 AM:

" Well, Beaches, you want things fixed, and the Republicans say there is nothing to be fixed. So best of luck with your "a pox on both their houses" approach there. It's an effective vote for the status quo, and I'm sure the GOP and the insurance profiteers will thank you for it. "

ed miller wrote on Aug 10, 2009 9:12 AM:

" Maybe they should be addressing the root of the problem instead of just throwing tax money at it. Why can't people afford to pay for their own health care? Is the service to expensive, are people not spending/saving their money wisely, or are they unable to get good enough jobs due to lack of education/training? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 10, 2009 9:23 AM:

" Anyone who falsely claims that the Republicans say there is nothing to be fixed with health care prices in this country, is either:

A) An idiot

B) A liar

C) A Liberal Democrat (both an idiot and a liar) "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 10:11 AM:

" Suddenly the victimized Quitter Queen of the North wants to change the subject from Obama's desire to kill her child.
After making an extraordinary, unsupported and incendiary claim that President Obama's health care plan will result in a "death panel" that is fundamentally "evil," Palin is now calling for "civility" in the debate on health care reform.
Although former House Speaker Newt Gingrich yesterday jumped to Palin's defense, many other conservatives are casting her comments as "crazy." There is nothing in any of the proposed health care legislation that would set up anything remotely like what Palin describes.
Now, in her latest Facebook entry, Palin seems to be wanting to change the subject. "

Matt Toon wrote on Aug 10, 2009 10:38 AM:

" To unknownjoe: You seem extremely pleased by the medical coverage offered by your employer. This is fine. But remember that 1. You could lose your job, and 2. If you are in the same position as most employees in the U.S., your employer could decide to drop the health coverage. "

father bob wrote on Aug 10, 2009 10:39 AM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 9, 2009 4:41 PM:
" Glenn Beck "joked" about poisoning and murdering Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi on Thursday's edition of "The Glenn Beck Program."
Ha ha. I will never understand right-wing humor, perhaps because it isn't humor but it is psychotic. """"""

coming back from santa fe friday afternoon, i turn in to ol' el rush-bo and listened to his hate-filled rhetoric. i wasn't a bit surprised when he ended a segment by referring to the president and stating "he MUST be stopped". at the end of his next segment, again he referred to the president and again said "he MUST be stopped".....i listened to his paranoid anti-government, anti-american ratings after i got home, and for the full duration of his show, and he continued to say ""he MUST be stopped" repeatedly.

this same type of "i really didn't mean that, i'm totally unaccountable, you can't blame ME!" that rantings got george tiller murdered.

there are mouthbreathing birther types who are unstable enough to be pushed over the edge by this type lunacy. e.g. scott roeder.

i see that the lunatic right is saying mr roeder was "sent by god"....figures.

leaving to the bible thumpers and mouthbreathers.... "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:15 AM:

" Thank you, Edward, for making my point that Republicans are just fine with the current health care system, which you blithely claim is not "the root of the problem."
The problem is only that people "don't save enough money" to pay the astronomical medical bills that cause 62 percent of the bankruptcies in the United States today, isn't that right? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 10, 2009 11:21 AM:

" Palin was spot on with her conclusion that Obama's Health Care policies will be based on White House Health Adviser, Dr Ezekiel Emanuel's main premise of the patient's "level of productivity in society". This will ultimately lead to a denial of health care for the disabled and elderly in order to ration the most to the youngest. Everyone needs to be aware of the nefarious medical ethics held by this administration. You will then soon realize just exactly why they are intent on rushing this horrendous policy into law before the public has a chance to comprehend it's full implications. It's time to wake up folks- before it's too late. "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 12:16 PM:

" The American Medical Association (that means the doctors, to you Palin fans) has endorsed the House health care reform bill that includes public option.
In a a letter to House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charlie Rangel, the AMA said, "This legislation includes a broad range of provisions that are key to effective, comprehensive health system reform." "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 10, 2009 12:37 PM:

" " Well, Beaches, you want things fixed, and the Republicans say there is nothing to be fixed.

Considering the the Pubs had 8 years to address this growing problem and didn't do squat, you must be right, TQ.

Apparently anyone who can't see that is just plain stupid.

Oh I forgot, they want medical savings accounts, which will do wonders for folks living under the poverty line and are struggling just put food on the table and a roof over their head. And they only came up with that lame idea after Obama started pushing health care reform. But since when did the Pubs ever give a damn about poor folks?

Yep, I would say stupid is a pretty good word to describe anyone who thinks the GOP doesn't think it needs fixed. lol!

Lastly, now what's my name? The snivelling little troll claimed to know it, but as we all know, he lied about that one too. "

Rockin Rotty wrote on Aug 10, 2009 12:53 PM:

" I could be mistaken, unless one doesn't set up their options & preference settings correctly, but, doesn't one need to "Add" someone as a "Friend" to be able to see their information on social networking sites, such as Facebook?

Eh, just a thought.
LMAO! "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 2:15 PM:

" Note that the Quitter Queen of the North NEVER discusses ANYTHING without claiming to be a pitiful VICTIM. She accuses the president of wanting to kill her child with "death panels," then whines and pouts and "calls for civility" when she is criticized for her blatant, obvious lie.
This serious narcissistic personality disorder of hers is actually the essence of her appeal to resentful, know-nothing ignoramuses. Crazy is not a liability in her crowd. It's an ASSET. "

father bob wrote on Aug 10, 2009 2:33 PM:

" 1.4 million per day spent by the healthcare providers lining the pockets of politicians to kill the healthcare bill......

what a waste, just think how many $12.00 aspirins that could buy! "

Hahvahd wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:36 PM:

" sam adams 52, you are the most aptly named poster on this site. Everything you write just reeks of the logic of someone who has consumed 52 bottle of Sam Adams.

zeke, you're some kind of know-it-all. Under just what authority are you claiming that no private insurance companies are 6 months behind in their payments to providers? My insurance company, Cigna, is currently 6 months behind in paying claims to my providers. It's not just the government-run insurers like Medicare or Medicaid that fall behind.

And unknown Joe, your mud-slinging at the letter-writer is completely uncalled for. At no point in his letter did he criticize the "local yokels" as you called them, or belittle anyone for being uneducated. He never brought up education at all, nor did he ever claim to be superior to anyone else. YOU, sir, have an inferiority complex and seem to fear the educated. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:36 PM:

" DOCTORS GROUP CHALLENGES AMA OBAMA-CARE ENDORSEMENT

EXAMINER.COM (July 22 2009) A group of 100,000 U. S. physicians, members of Sermo, say that the American Medical Association (AMA) endorsement of government-run healthcare does not reflect the views of practicing physicians.
----------------

Sermo doctors belong to an online community which is used to collaborate on difficult cases, share clinical observations and work together to achieve better patient outcomes than each could do individually. "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:54 PM:

" Breaking news from the Onion: Injuries Sustained Disrupting Town Hall Not Covered By Insurance. "

Hahvahd wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:55 PM:

" Hey, Joe. Instead of complaining about how bad your government provided insurance was when you didn't have a job good enough to provide benefits for your pregnant wife, and then comparing it unfavorably to the insurance provided by the job with benefits when your wife became pregnant again 8 months after the birth of the first-mentioned child, perhaps it would have been more cost-effective, as well as better for your wife's health, to consider a little family planning. Birth control is a lot cheaper than pregnancy and raising a child, whether you're insured or not. "

father bob wrote on Aug 10, 2009 3:56 PM:

" oooooops!!

Town hall disruptions around the country have led to some outbreaks of violence. Unions participating in town halls have received death threats. At an event held by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) last week, the threat of violence led her aides to call the police after one attendee dropped a gun. "

unknownjoe wrote on Aug 10, 2009 4:03 PM:

" Yes Matt oon, I am very pleased that I have affordable health-care for my family and myself. In fact I just got back from the Dr. I had a complete physical and some annual tests run. All for the price of a small co-pay.
As for losing my job and insurance anything is possible but;

1. I dont see me losing my job anytime soon unless the country falls victim to Obamalamadingdong's socialist agenda. But if the country starts heading that way, we will be engulfed in a civil war and no one will have a job anyway.

2. I don't see my employer dropping medical coverage for it's employees anytime soon unless they are forced to do so by the Great Obamalamdingdong's great socialist agenda.

In either case I am going to get as much medical care done and out of the way for myself and my family while we still have a choice. How bout you? Do you have a choice right now of what Dr. you want to see or hospital you want to use or even procedures you wish you could have done. Probably not. Unemployed are we Matt? or perhaps the lazies have caught up with you or maybe when the union went on strike and the company closed shop and moved on. Good Luck to you Matt. Hope you get all in this life that you are looking for buddy ole pal. "

Hahvahd wrote on Aug 10, 2009 4:17 PM:

" Hey, Joe,

You sure are quick to jump to conclusions about others, buddy ol' pal. Where did Matt claim to be unemployed, or in an insurance plan without choice? First Mr. Kilgore, then Matt. . . . I guess anyone who has a different opinion than you do opens themselves up to your assumptions. You know what they say about those who assume. . . .

You also seem to be enjoying your current health benefits. By rushing out to get as much health care as you can while you can, don't you think you might be contributing to the problem? Be careful -- employees who use up expensive health care benefits are often seen as a liability to their employers. If you cost the company too much, they just might find a reason to terminate your employment -- it can and does happen, all over our country. "

Hahvahd wrote on Aug 10, 2009 4:33 PM:

" One last thought, Joe: where would you and your family have been without the state-run insurance that you complain about? Even "the most basic" prenatal care and a C-section delivery end up costing thousands and thousands of dollars.

Many of your fellow citizens are in that situation -- an unexpected pregnancy, a diagnosis of cancer, a heart attack, a ruptured appendix, gallstones or kidney stones, etc. With no insurance, those individuals and families face financial ruin, even bankruptcy. For a family who ends up losing everything because of medical bills they cannot pay, I'm sure the government-provided healthcare that you bash would have seemed like a lifeline, a ray of hope. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 10, 2009 5:05 PM:

" Sarah Palin's beloved child Trig, born with Down Syndrome, is safe and so is everyone else who has been terrified by her hyperbolic "death panel" rhetoric on President Obama's health care reform efforts.

I'll leave it to our editorial page to debunk the unsubstantiated and preposterous Palin press release -- a wild distortion of an optional benefit already offered under Medicare to pay doctors for helping patients and their family face end-of-life decision making according to their own values.
USA Today-

And somehow the right wingers have turned this issue into one of Obama wanting to kill off old people. When it comes to twisting facts, exaggeration and outright lies, the GOP can't be topped. "

father bob wrote on Aug 10, 2009 5:38 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Aug 10, 2009 5:05 PM:
" When it comes to twisting facts, exaggeration and outright lies, the GOP can't be topped. """""

karl rove taught the lesson well, and they witnessed the outcome at the polls in september, and will again in 2010. they make noise for a while, and then people see them for what they really are.....how much better can it get? "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 6:31 PM:

" Political discourse isn't rational at all in the U.S. any longer. It's all advertising-driven, and designed to make Americans feel better about their severe inadequacies by identifying the product (some lying, power-drunk politician like Palin) with the relief of their anxiety about those inadequacies.
Poor and middle-class Americans are losing any control over their lives and wealth, by design, so a Bush or a McCain offers them the compensating distraction of a fascist fantasy of Hollywood "toughness."
You say you have no power over your own life? Then forget about it and glory in your Pentagon's power to shock-and-awe thousands of civilians to bloody bits in your name!
It didn't matter, for example, that an immoral, murderous invasion and permanent occupation based on lies wasn't rationally defensible. The manipulators calculated that it presented the right fantasy image to Americans, many of whom, having helpfully replaced their books with video games, can no longer think for themselves beyond the most rudimentary level.
So they can turn an effort to rescue America's collapsed health care into "death panels." It's easy when you lie, and your audience is willfully irrational. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 10, 2009 7:52 PM:

" .....how much better can it get? "

Every time Limbaugh and Palin open their mouths it gets better, TQ.

With each Limbaugh broadcast and Palin twitter the Democratic party's stock rises.

The funny thing is they would be better off in keeping the traps shut, but with their gigantic egos they just can't do that. Do you think all that kissing up Gingerich is doing with Palin is an attempt to get the second spot? "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 8:16 PM:

" I'm afraid I know where all this is going, Harry. I saw it in the 1960s, and Fox News and Palin and Limbaugh are hoping gin up the stupid, gun-crazy creeps in their audience just enough to do it again, and then deny all responsibility. "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 8:53 PM:

" Republicans are enthusiastic supporters of the use of torture, but completely opposed to providing health care to all Americans. See any pattern beginning to emerge there? "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2009 9:06 PM:

" At an event held by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) last week, the threat of violence led her aides to call the police after one attendee dropped a gun at the meet n' greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 10, 2009 10:38 PM:

" LEFT-WING HEARTACHE! OBAMA BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BY BIG PHARMACY *GASP*

NEW YORK TIMES WASHINGTON (Aug 8 2009) The drug industry has authorized its lobbyists to spend as much as $150 million on television commercials supporting President Obamas health care overhaul, beginning over the August Congressional recess, people briefed on the plans said Saturday.

The unusually large scale of the industrys commitment to the cause helps explain some of a contentious back-and-forth playing out in recent days between the odd-couple allies over a deal that the White House struck with the industry in June to secure its support. The terms of the deal were not fully disclosed. Both sides had announced that the drug industry would contribute $80 billion over 10 years to the cost of the health care overhaul without spelling out the details.

With House Democrats moving to extract more than that just as the drug makers finalized their advertising plans, the industry lobbyists pressed the Obama administration for public reassurances that it had agreed to cap the industrys additional costs at $80 billion. The White House, meanwhile, has struggled to mollify its most pivotal health industry ally without alienating Congressional Democrats who want to demand far more of the drug makers. White House officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

Many Democratic lawmakers have railed for years against what they consider the industrys excessive profits and pointedly insisted in recent days that they do not feel bound by the White Houses commitments.
-------------

Oh dear oh dear oh dear! Another 180 degree turn around by Obama and yet another powerfully juicy talking point for the Republicans! LOL

It's beginning to feel like Bizarro World- isn't it folks? LOL "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 11, 2009 7:53 AM:

" There's a pretty good article in today's printed version of the local paper that debunks the lies being told by the Sarah Palins on the world regarding the proposed health care reforms. Perhaps Palin needs to have her wacky preacher perform another cleansing ceremony on her, apparently that the last one didn't take. "

Bernie wrote on Aug 11, 2009 8:50 AM:

" How do we pay for it?

We follow the (wasted, spent but diverted away from health care) money, and get it from there. No where is there a huger pile of more fat that could be so easily trimmed than on the gravy train the private health insurers are running at our expense. We are at their mercy, and they have NONE.

Did anyone notice the irony dripping from Palin's remark about her parents and Down's Syndrome child's health care? Her parents are on Medicare. She and other parents like her will never have to worry about their children having access to the health care they need and deserve only because of Medicare Disability.

Meanwhile, our choice for health care protection in the private market is between: A. Totally unreliable; or B. None.

Shouldn't we all have the right to choose the same kind of health care protection Sarah Palin's parents and disabled child have? Medicare runs on 2-3% efficiency rate while private insurance takes 31% off the top before any care can begin to be delivered.

How dumb are we? Health isurers make war profiteers, banking and oil barons look like chump changers.

Will Sarah's son in the military give up his socialized medicine? "

father bob wrote on Aug 11, 2009 9:07 AM:

" the whole rightwing healthcare argument is based on the exact same political premise the GOP has run on for years...

big business profits from the masses of the poor working class and their pitiful existence. keep they beaten down and working.... "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Aug 11, 2009 9:10 AM:

" THIS ARTICLE IS TOO COMICAL, DOC!!!!!

Hey Doc Kilgore...don't you mean the STATE OF ILLINOIS, YOUR INSURANCE PROVIDER, is 6 months behind in payments to your health providers?

So why is your insurance provider, the State of Illinois GROUP BENEFITS plan, behind?

OHHHHH that's right, the state's out of money!!!!!!

Why's the state out of money?

In part because they hire academics like you that work 20 hour work weeks while making a, at or near, 6-digit income!!!!!

Next, you'll probably complain in a few years about your retirement plan, a plan that's full of IOU's to the state of Illinois, won't ya?

That's what I love about you folks living behind the 'Ivy Towers'.

YOU DRAW YOUR SALARY AND BENEFITS OFF OF THE BACKS OF THE HARD WORKING, TAX PAYING FOLKS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR while never having to have broken your backs to earn a living, thinking it's all given out for free!!!

Then you, such the "great philanthropists", want to spread something like health-care out to folks that, that in many cases, like you, HAVEN'T HAD TO PAY FOR ANYTHING! "

unknownjoe wrote on Aug 11, 2009 9:10 AM:

" Thank you "Harvard" for your unsolicited input. First off, my employer should never know how much or what kind of medical procedures that I use. The tests I spoke of are preventative care measures which most insurers love to pay for. As for assumptions, I was only answering assumptions made by Mr/Ms Matt-oon. Fighting fire with fire as it were. As for family planning, are you making the assumption that we didnt use family planning, because you know what assumptions do. Sometimes it just doesnt work, but no matter, As far as the government sponsored health care we signed up for, you are correct to say that it was a stop-gap measure and that is what it was. A LAST RESORT. That is the way all government programs should be A LAST RESORT, not a the first and only choice. Unfortunately we are still being billed because of that choice. Because once again, the government program is too slow to pay. I would rather continue with my choice of health-care instead of a having a government controlled program that I cannot refuse. I have been there and done it, and still paying the price for it. I would rather that my fellow Americans would have the choice in their health care instead of perpetual dependence upon the state for whatever the state deems necessary or cost effecitve. "

father bob wrote on Aug 11, 2009 9:12 AM:

" General Motors said Tuesday that its Chevrolet Volt with its rechargeable battery is expected to get at least 230 miles a gallon in city driving. The car is scheduled to be released in 2011.

hmmmmm....guess this crisis and bailing out the US automakers and holding their feet to the fire may just pay dividends after all.

but alas.....according to the neoconservative right, it'll never work. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Aug 11, 2009 9:39 AM:

" The costs of the whole Rube Goldberg mess are dragging the larger economy down toward Third World status.
---------------------------

I dunno, but it seems like to me having to paying wages to people higher than the costs of goods or services (COGS) they produce here compared to in other places in the world, making "junk" here no one elsewhere in the world wants to buy, government intervention providing home loans to people that can't afford them, and a tax and spend president and congress for economically unsustainable social programs along with the passing of a trillion dollar, failed porkulus plan are the things dragging our "larger economy down toward Third World status".

But what do I know? "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 11, 2009 12:47 PM:

" But what do I know?

Apparently, other than your non stop Obama bashing, very little. (sorry I couldn't help myself) "

The Question wrote on Aug 11, 2009 12:51 PM:

" In 10 years, if the government does not massively reform the U.S. health care system, Americans will be paying HALF THEIR INCOMES for "health care." That will permanently wreck the U.S. economy, so I guess Republicans will then have finished the job they started under Bush. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 11, 2009 1:13 PM:

" LATEST POLL: OBAMA-CARE SUPPORT HITS NEW LOWS

RASMUSSEN: Likely voters now oppose it 53%-42%, when six weeks ago a slim majority favored the plan. The intensity of opposition has increased greatly, while the intensity of support has diminished.
-------------

Golly- and after Obama Astroturf-Rallied all of his SEIU Union thugs to disrupt, intimidate, and physically attack American citizens at townhall meetings across the country.

Welcome folks- to the Democrat Party's Slow Suicide Death March. It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of Fascists......... "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 11, 2009 4:00 PM:

" father bob wrote on Aug 11, 2009 9:12 AM:
" General Motors said Tuesday that its Chevrolet Volt with its rechargeable battery is expected to get at least 230 miles a gallon in city driving. The car is scheduled to be released in 2011.

hmmmmm....guess this crisis and bailing out the US automakers and holding their feet to the fire may just pay dividends after all.

but alas.....according to the neoconservative right, it'll never work. "

The EPA has not tested a Volt and therefore cant confirm the fuel economy values claimed by GM, Cathy Milbourn, an agency spokeswoman, said in an e-mailed statement.

Hmmm... looks like the car company has made unconfirmed claims. Isn't odd how the car company that can supposedly get such good mileage just happens to be owned by the government now.
I also love how electric cars are better, but the left can not figure out where the power comes to charge the car. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 11, 2009 4:04 PM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 11, 2009 12:51 PM:
" In 10 years, if the government does not massively reform the U.S. health care system, Americans will be paying HALF THEIR INCOMES for "health care." That will permanently wreck the U.S. economy, so I guess Republicans will then have finished the job they started under Bush. "

I would ask for some citation but you have told me before you do not have to cite your remarks. So now if Obamacare fails miserably will you be willing to say that Obama did wrong, or if Obamacare fails will that be Bush's fault to. I mean since he is all powerful to start hurricanes, crash jets, and mislead almost the entire Congress. "

Hahvahd wrote on Aug 11, 2009 4:32 PM:

" jr, No one claims that Bush caused Hurricane Katrina, but that his pal at Fema, to whom he offered effusive praise ("Heckuva job, Brownie) responded incredibly slowly to the incident, in part because the people impacted included a high % of minority members, who have long been treated as politically expendible by the Republicans (among other attrocious treatment). And no, Bush didn't crash the planes on 9/11, but he ignored information in his own daily briefings that might have prevented the attacks. And yes, he did manage to have the power to mislead (read: LIE TO) most of Congress, capitalizing on the feelings of fear and patriotism spurred by 9/11. He and his cronies had wanted to attack Iraq well before 9/11; that just gave them the opening they needed. "

The Question wrote on Aug 11, 2009 5:17 PM:

" Fox News interrupted its coverage of President Obamas health care town hall meeting to lie that the presidents position on health care is "single payer," and complain that there wasnt enough screaming and yelling from protesters.
Evidently disappointed that there werent the kinds of disruptions that Fox News has been drooling over in other town halls, host Trace Gallagher interrupted Obamas town hall after just a few questions and said, We told you this was not a pre-screened crowd. The White House said they expected people to come in and sometimes maybe yell and shout a little bit. Weve not seen that." "

father bob wrote on Aug 11, 2009 5:33 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on Aug 11, 2009 4:00 PM:
"I also love how electric cars are better, but the left can not figure out where the power comes to charge the car. """"

well let's see at 230 MPG....or he11, let's even fudge that way down to 100 MPG i'll just bet we'll be ahead on energy spent to recharge. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 11, 2009 6:32 PM:

" "I also love how electric cars are better, but the left can not figure out where the power comes to charge the car. """"

Once again the ever partisan jr lashes out.

Good thing you didn't say anything about his political hero Palin, fb. That's the one that gets his panties in a wad. lol! "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 11, 2009 7:51 PM:

" Some random comments from the birther queen, Orly Taitz:

Goldman Sachs runs the treasury.

Obama is a puppet.

There's a cemetery somewhere in Arizona where they just dug 30,000 fresh graves, which wait now for the revolution.

Baxter International a major Obama contributor developed a vaccine for bird flu that actually kills people.

Google Congressman Alcee Hastings and House Bill 684 and you'll see that they're planning at least six civilian labor camps.

Google an article in the San Francisco Chronicle about train cars with shackles.

The communist dictator Hugo Chavez way back in 2004 purchased the Sequoia software that runs our voting machines and the mainstream media won't report any of it not even Fox because Saudi Arabia bought a percentage of Fox in 2007.

Wow! and to think I've been commenting about how crazy Palin is. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 11, 2009 7:56 PM:

" An astute blogger had this to say about Orly:

She and Sister Sarah must shop at the same Meth lab.

Drugs are the only reasonable explanation that these people can formulate such nonsensical brain farts. Either theyre taking too many of the bad ones or not enough of the ones they really need.

Hey, here's an idea for the GOP, Sarah and Orly for 2012.... "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 11, 2009 11:29 PM:

" CONFIRMED: MOTHER OF GIRL WHO ASKED QUESTION AT TOWN HALL IS BIG OBAMA DONOR

Manning Hall has donated thousands of dollars to Obama, as has her law firm.

But, you know, um, like Obama said: "I don't want people saying I just have a bunch of plants in here."

Oh, goodness. Of course not. lol

The astroturfing continues.....geez... "

AnnaNiemaus wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:43 AM:

" No no, Harry; Orly was not born in the USA so she can't run. Michelle Bachmann, however, would fit the bill nicely. I really really hope these two are the GOP 2012 ticket! "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 2:08 AM:

" Hahvahd wrote on Aug 11, 2009 4:32 PM:
" jr, No one claims that Bush caused Hurricane Katrina, but that his pal at Fema, to whom he offered effusive praise ("Heckuva job, Brownie) responded incredibly slowly to the incident, in part because the people impacted included a high % of minority members, who have long been treated as politically expendible by the Republicans (among other attrocious treatment).

Another person who want to play a race card and yet knows nothing of how FEMA works, nor can admit that it was the governor and mayor who messed up. You might want to check on your facts regarding FEMA and when they can respond. I'll give you a clue only after the governor asks the federal government for help.
________________________________________

And no, Bush didn't crash the planes on 9/11, but he ignored information in his own daily briefings that might have prevented the attacks. And yes, he did manage to have the power to mislead (read: LIE TO) most of Congress, capitalizing on the feelings of fear and patriotism spurred by 9/11.

So the intelligence information that Congress read was a trick. Are you talking about the briefings he didn't get, or the ones that were stuck at the CIA because Clinton stopped the FBI and CIA from speaking to each other. Of course if Clinton would have taken Bin Laden when he was given to him none of it would have happened.
________________________________________

He and his cronies had wanted to attack Iraq well before 9/11; that just gave them the opening they needed. "

Time to come back to reality. I guess the fact that Clinton believed WMD existed, which were found, does not matter. Nor the fact that Hussain had Al Quida training camps, killed thousands of his own people, and was not following the U.N. resolutions does not matter either. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 2:17 AM:

" What class calling someone a drug user, just make sure you don't say anything about Obama. He is the savior of the world right Harry? "

The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 6:52 AM:

" When health care reform is defeated, or passed without a public option, and you right wingers watch your friends and family members sink under the weight of untreated, unaffordable ailments, or you join the millions of Americans bankrupted by preposterous medical expenses, do remember one thing, please.
You asked for it. "

The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:42 AM:

" For the years 2003 and 2004, more than of all personal bankruptcies were the result of medical debt by those WITH "health insurance."
The average family premium is projected to rise to more than $22,000 in the next decade. And each year, nearly a million people face bankruptcy because of medical expenses.
A study by Harvard and Ohio universities that found 62.1 percent of the respondents filed for bankruptcy because of medical reasons in 2007, a 50 percent increase since 2001. Of the group, 57.1 percent cited problems with paying medical bills as a major cause for their filing.
The study was published in the August 2009 issue of The American Journal of Medicine (In case jr wants to check out what a fact looks like). "

father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 10:08 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Aug 11, 2009 6:32 PM:
"Good thing you didn't say anything about his political hero Palin, fb. That's the one that gets his panties in a wad. lol! """"

lol!!....good one Harry! you mean george bush in drag? "

father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 10:13 AM:

" HP, palin is exactly what the GOP longs for in a presidential candidate. she's another george bush type. just and empty shell they can parade around while the criminals pull the puppet's strings.... "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:54 AM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:42 AM:
" For the years 2003 and 2004, more than of all personal bankruptcies were the result of medical debt by those WITH "health insurance."
The average family premium is projected to rise to more than $22,000 in the next decade. And each year, nearly a million people face bankruptcy because of medical expenses.
A study by Harvard and Ohio universities that found 62.1 percent of the respondents filed for bankruptcy because of medical reasons in 2007, a 50 percent increase since 2001. Of the group, 57.1 percent cited problems with paying medical bills as a major cause for their filing.
The study was published in the August 2009 issue of The American Journal of Medicine (In case jr wants to check out what a fact looks like). "

First is this where I am to do like bob does and say something like, "American Journal of Medicine", is anti-insurance. TheQuestion your nuts!
No I would not sink to those depths.
I never said health care didn't need reformed. Obviously you do not actually read what I write. It does and their needs to be reform in how insurance companies handle medical situations. I do not disagree that their are problems. What I do disagree with is the government taking total control, and the fact that you and those like bob, and Harry can not let yourselves admit that Obama is not always right, and neither is your party. I can say Bush messed up, you can not even say Clinton messed up, let alone some of the things Obama has done. That is why you have no credibility with so many. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:56 AM:

" father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 10:08 AM:
" Harry Potter wrote on Aug 11, 2009 6:32 PM:
"Good thing you didn't say anything about his political hero Palin, fb. That's the one that gets his panties in a wad. lol! """"

lol!!....good one Harry! you mean george bush in drag? "

Once again folks look at the people who speak for the left. They go by the motto of "If you can't beat them make fun of them." Even my youngest would tell them, "If you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all." Oh well keep showing the fear. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:11 PM:

" Hey Harry you love condemning anyone who protests Obamacare. Did you see who the new mob is. Senior citizens are protesting and voicing their opinion against Obamacare. So to you they would be an unruly mob and to the queen of the Left, Pelosi, they are Un-American. Keep up the good work with Pelosi talking those against Obamacare will not even need to speak up. "

red,white,blue wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:34 PM:

" 7X6Z9 wrote: "what is their really motivation here? Simple. POLITICAL POWER. Specifically DEMOCRAT PARTISAN POWER."

You are absolutely right that this is what it's all about. First the banks, then the car companies, destroy the insurance companies and take over health care. Should scare any sensible, reasonable person if they had the guts to be honest about it.

What do you all propose to do with the thousands or tens of thousands of people employed by the insurance companies? Oh, I know they can go to work for the government and become death counselors. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:50 PM:

" If the rumors flying around Alaska are true about Palin dumping her husband, she has nothing to worry about as far as her future in the GOP. After all, divorce seems to be a family value with that party. Just look at two of their leading spokesmen, Limbaugh and Gingrich. "

father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:59 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:56 AM:
" Oh well keep showing the fear. """"

woooo hoooo!!!....that right there is downright comical!!

fear sarah palin? you gotta be out of your mind! she's the best thing that ever happened to the democratic party! we can only hope someone actually pushes her through to nomination!! yet another example of just how dead the GOP is....

thanks for the chuckle! that's the post of the day!! "

father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 1:03 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:11 PM:
" Hey Harry you love condemning anyone who protests Obamacare. Did you see who the new mob is. Senior citizens are protesting and voicing their opinion against Obamacare. So to you they would be an unruly mob and to the queen of the Left, Pelosi, they are Un-American. """""

hehehehehe!....now that's just another fine example of how you mindless lemmings follow one another into the sea!

she said stopping the discussion was un-american, not people voicing an opinion. get it right einstein! "

The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 1:03 PM:

" I'm trying to wrap my mind around just what kind of a nut job feels compelled to carry a firearm to a debate on health care. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 3:14 PM:

" OBAMA LIES AGAIN: AARP HAS ENDORSED MY DISASTEROUS HEALTH CARE PLAN
AARP: UHM....NO WE HAVEN'T...

ABCNEWS (Aug 12 2009) - The countrys largest advocacy group for Americans over 50 issued a statement after the event saying, "While the President was correct that AARP will not endorse a health care reform bill that would reduce Medicare benefits, indications that we have endorsed any of the major health care reform bills currently under consideration in Congress are inaccurate."
-------------------

Oh and- ObamaCare will actually cut Medicare by $500 Billion over the next ten years. Good luck reconciling that minor little "hitch" between the two entities.

Nothing to see here folks.

....move along now you "crazy" "un-American" townhall protestors...

Move along...... "

The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 3:24 PM:

" Hey, Republicans, do you remember when your simian savior Mr. Bush tried to divert all those awful socialist Social Security revenues into the stock market? Do you remember what happened to the stock market after that?
Now, why don't you explain again to the senior citizens how you'd like to wipe out those terrible far, far leftist government programs Medicare and Social Security? I'm sure they'd be interested. "

red,white,blue wrote on Aug 12, 2009 3:55 PM:

" No more of a nutjob than the ones who felt compelled to gang up on and proceed to beat up a conservative black man, calling him the 'n' word. "

red,white,blue wrote on Aug 12, 2009 3:57 PM:

" Mr. Potter, I'd like for you to explain what your post of 12:50 p.m. has to do with the discussion at hand. Never mind. When you've run out of arguments, as you and TQ so obviously have, just bring up your hatred and contempt for Palin and Bush. Works every time....for some small minds I guess. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 4:38 PM:

" Mr. Potter, I'd like for you to explain what your post of 12:50 p.m. has to do with the discussion at hand.

Just my way of welcoming you back, Martha, and I must say you seem sort of ungrateful about it. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 4:46 PM:

" How about Obama's big AARP lie Harry?

How about that? "

The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 4:50 PM:

" At the Bush town hall meetings about privatizing Social Security, only pre-screened supporters were permitted into the halls and anyone who even remotely looked like they might not be a supporter (such as those with the wrong T-shirt or whose car had the bumper sticker) were escorted out and threatened with arrest.
However, since that time apparently gun-toting violent mobs are the essence of democracy. Break out the pitchforks and torches! "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 4:56 PM:

" The Tea Party "mobs" are not as spontaneous as they might appear. On July 24, an anti-health care reform group called Conservatives for Patients Rights (run by discredited hospital executive Rick Scott in conjunction with public relations professionals from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth campaign) sent a database to the Tea Party Patriots Health Care Reform Committee list serve with information on over one hundred upcoming congressional town halls. Robert MacGuffie, a volunteer for FreedomWorks who runs the website Right Principles, also chipped in by providing a strategy memo for the Tea Partiers, instructing them to "rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation...yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early....rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda...stand up and shout and sit right back down."
Huffington Post-

Yeah, and it's all about average folks standing up for what they believe in, right jr? By the way, Rick Scott lost his job for his part in a scheme that bilked Medicare out of millions. "

father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 5:11 PM:

" red,white,blue wrote on Aug 12, 2009 3:57 PM:When you've run out of arguments, as you and TQ so obviously have, just bring up your hatred and contempt for Palin and Bush. """""

boy HP and TQ, my feelings are hurt! "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 6:37 PM:

" Dedicated to my friend red,white,blue:

This is weird, in her resignation speech, Sarah Palin said she polled her children on whether she should resign and the county was unanimous. Yeah, even her children thought she was in over her head." --Conan O'Brien "

father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:22 PM:

" while we're talking about nutcases, did you see where glen beck's sponsors are dumping him....funny!

Geico, men's warehouse, sarento, state farm to start "

angi61 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:29 PM:

" In reply to 7X6Z9's cut and paste from the UK Telegraph, why didn't you show other parts of this story, such as an important part;

"A spokesman for NICE said its guidance did not recommend that injections were stopped for all patients, but only for those who had been in pain for less than a year, where the cause was not known."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5955840/Patients-forced-to-live-in-agony-after-NHS-refuses-to-pay-for-painkilling-injections.html "

ed miller wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:33 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 4:56 PM:
" ....a scheme that bilked Medicare out of millions. "

Thanks for making a good point against government run health care, Harry.

The government is not careful with money BECAUSE IT'S NOT THEIR MONEY. Come on, it took FEMA FOUR DAYS to get water to Katrina and you clowns want to give this government control over your health care? We can't even pay for all of the social programs that we have already. The Government seems to think they can solve all our nation's troubles with new departments or czars to throw bundles of our tax dollars at any problem with little or no oversight as to how our money is used.

A kid my wife works with told her that his Dad used the kid's SSI check to buy weed. Two days later their electricity was shut off. Just another efficient use of my tax money . More government intervention isn't helping poverty and it won't help health care. "

angi61 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:49 PM:

" In reply to 7X6Z9's discussion about how AARP does not endorse any current reform bill on the floor, I can see why they don't when they are getting their $$$ as an administrative middleman pulling the bait and switch with people. read more about this at the link below;

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/12/05/aarp_collects_royalties_fees_from_insurers_it_endorses/?page=full

"Beyond the administrative excesses of AARPs insurer, UnitedHealth, AARP has inserted itself as another middleman, providing yet another layer of administration, with none of those extra funds going to pay for health care." Don McCanne MD http://pnhp.org/blog/2008/12/10/aarpunitedhealth-bait-and-switch/ "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:53 PM:

" OH MY: NEW GALLUP POLL SHOWS TOWN HALL PROTESTERS WINNING OVER INDEPENDENTS

Independents by 2-1, 35%-16%, say they are more sympathetic to the protesters now.

The findings are bad news for President Obama and Democratic congressional leaders, who have scrambled to respond to town halls marked by aggressive questions and noisy demonstrations by those opposed to plans to overhaul the health care system.
-----------

Well golly gee. Who woulda thunk that all those independents were un-American Nazi political-terrorists?

And this- after Obama generously donated his precious time to go on TV, multiple times a day, day after day, to ridicule them, laugh at them, and discount them as a mob of lying crazies.

Pfffft- that's gratitude for ya.

Why, it's almost as if the American people don't like to be force-fed a pack of lies as they're being told to sit down and shut-up simply because they're too stupid to know what's good fer 'em.

Poor Barrack. Doesn't everyone know by now that he's the Political Messiah- come to save us from ourselves?
Don't they realize that he's the only human capable of picking up s#*t by it's clean end?

You know? I don't think this country's worthy of Barry o. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 7:59 PM:

" An astute bloger said this about the healthcare reform issue:

The health care reform has brought out the worst for this reason: These are people who are easily led and there are those who are willing to spend a great deal of money to influence these people. The elected officials who know that "death panels" are lies and the idea that the government would kill Sarah Palin's baby or kill her granny--------those Senators and Representatives know that is nonsense. They're saying it to drive up fear and anger and they're doing it because they're getting a lot of money, from large corporate interests, to insure that health reform doesn't happen; Or, if it does that it will be reform in name only but will result in bigger profits to the health care industry. A great deal of money is being spent in an effort to drive people, who are vulnerable, crazy with fear. It seems to be working especially well on old people and is the more despicable for the cynicism that allows such behavior.

Wish I had said it.... "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 8:03 PM:

" A kid my wife works with told her that his Dad used the kid's SSI check to buy weed. Two days later their electricity was shut off. Just another efficient use of my tax money . More government intervention isn't helping poverty and it won't help health care. "

Really ed, using anecdotal tales doesn't really make a valid point.

And as far as the crook who got caught bilking Medicare, well, he got caught. Of course he found a home in GOP politics. "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 8:20 PM:

" "A spokesman for NICE said its guidance did not recommend that injections were stopped for all patients, but only for those who had been in pain for less than a year, where the cause was not known."
--------

Are you kidding- angi61?

Out of that entire article THAT is the part that you chose to cherry pick to somehow justify these obvious pathetic cost-cutting measures? Patients who had been in pain for less than a year, where the cause was not known? Really? And that makes it less of a tragedy?

Perhaps you missed these tidbits in the article angi:

"But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.

Dr Christopher Wells, a leading specialist in pain relief medicine and the founder of the NHS' first specialist pain clinic, said it was "entirely unacceptable" that conventional treatments used by thousands of patients would be stopped."

"I don't mind whether some people want to try acupuncture, or osteopathy. What concerns me is that to pay for these treatments, specialist clinics which offer vital services are going to be forced to close, leaving patients in significant pain, with nowhere to go,"

OR MAYBE THIS:

"The NICE guidelines admit that evidence was limited for many back pain treatments, including those it recommended. Where scientific proof was lacking, advice was instead taken from its expert group. But specialists are furious that while the group included practitioners of alternative therapies, there was no one with expertise in conventional pain relief medicine to argue against a decision to significantly restrict its use."

OH, AND HOW ABOUT THIS:

"Dr Jonathan Richardson, a consultant pain specialist from Bradford Hospitals Trust, is among more than 50 medics who have written to NICE urging the body to reconsider its decision, which was taken in May.

He said: "The consequences of the NICE decision will be devastating for thousands of patients. It will mean more people on opiates, which are addictive, and kill 2,000 a year. It will mean more people having spinal surgery, which is incredibly risky, and has a 50 per cent failure rate."

One in three people are estimated to suffer from lower back pain every year, while one in 15 consult their GP about it. Specialists say therapeutic injections using steroids to reduce inflammation and other injections which can deaden nerve endings, can provide months or even years of respite from pain.

Experts said that if funding was stopped for the injections, many clinics would also struggle to offer other vital services, such as pain management programmes and psychotherapy which is used to manage chronic pain."
-------------

Now tell me again, angi61, how the statement from NICE that you highlighted somehow magically lessens the impact of this broken system.

What was your point again? "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 8:45 PM:

" " In reply to 7X6Z9's discussion about how AARP does not endorse any current reform bill on the floor, I can see why they don't when they are getting their $$$ as an administrative middleman pulling the bait and switch with people. "
----------

Hey ani61? I'll let you in on a little secret: AARP is a big-time Democrat-backing political hack machine. Feel free to dump on them all you want.

But let's get something straight here: The ONLY reason they are in a conflict with ObamaCare (in it's current form) is because it will cut $500 Billion dollars from Medicare in the next 10 years. And there is no way AARP will ever go along with that and still have any hope of keeping it's membership from dumping them in droves.

Sooner or later they WILL give their complete support to whatever deal-with-the-devil form ObamaCare finally takes. Mark my words on that.

And if you're really concerned about the influence of BIG EVIL HEALTH INDUSTRY LOBBYISTS- then you should certainly be up in arms and all aghast! at the secretive little quid pro quo backing that ObamaCare struck with BIG PHARM- at the tune of $150 million for advertising, and a mere $80 BILLION over the next 10 years.

Aren't ya just stunned? And after Obama promised no lobbyist influence in his Administration and complete transparency? Shocking isn't it? I'm sure you're positively outraged, aren't you angi61? "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 9:28 PM:

" You would think Doh was being paid by the insurance companies the way he's spinning tonight. lol! "

7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 10:03 PM:

" Have another beer and crawl off to bed Harry.

You've had another long day of obfuscation and distraction, little guy, and you've served your master faithfully. Being a little Obama troll must wear you out and it's been getting tougher lately hasn't it, Harry. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 10:17 PM:

" Aug. 13, 2009 | Somebody's going to have to teach the Republican leadership that "bipartisan" isn't a synonym for "weak." That somebody may have to be Barack Obama. The success of his presidency may depend upon it. No professorial lectures, please. It's not possible to reason with people peddling grotesque and preposterous lies, bargain with people who are screaming, or negotiate under threats of violence.

Persons whose behavior would get them thrown out of a Rolling Stones show should be removed by security. Period. President Bush, it will be recalled, almost never appeared before audiences not pre-screened for loyalty. Potential dissenters were prevented from entering and were sometimes arrested.

Democrats shouldn't act that way. At his recent town hall in New Hampshire, Obama calmed the crazies by simply asking questioners to identify themselves. Also, even Sarah Palin's most rapt supporters may have understood that shouting down the president would likely backfire politically.
Salon- "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Aug 12, 2009 10:17 PM:

" From the mouth of esteemed leftist-feminist, Camille Paglia, Professor at the University of the Arts, Philly, PA and social critic...
----

"Obama's aggressive endorsement of a healthcare plan that does not even exist yet, except in five competing, fluctuating drafts, makes Washington seem like Cloud Cuckoo Land. The president is promoting the most colossal, brazen bait-and-switch operation since..."

"I just don't get it. Why the insane rush to pass a bill, any bill, in three weeks? And why such an abject failure by the Obama administration to present the issues to the public in a rational, detailed, informational way?"

"...with the massive boondoggle of the stimulus package, which Obama foolishly let Congress turn into a pork rut, too much has been attempted all at once; focused, targeted initiatives would, instead, have won wide public support..."

And all this from SALON.COM...hardly a wing-right propaganda publication...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/08/12/town_halls/index.html

OBAMA = FAILURE "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:21 PM:

" I have to wonder why neo left out this part from the Salon article:

Aug. 12, 2009 | Buyer's remorse? Not me. At the North American summit in Guadalajara this week, President Obama resumed the role he is best at -- representing the U.S. with dignity and authority abroad. This is why I, for one, voted for Obama and continue to support him. The damage done to U.S. prestige by the feckless, buffoonish George W. Bush will take years to repair. Obama has barely begun the crucial mission that he was elected to do.

Sort of like the good folks at Fox who only tell the part of the story that agrees with their spin. Or like the Hannity splicing of Obamas speeches to make it appear he said what Hannity wanted to hear. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:48 PM:

" father bob wrote on Aug 12, 2009 1:03 PM:
" jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 12:11 PM:
" Hey Harry you love condemning anyone who protests Obamacare. Did you see who the new mob is. Senior citizens are protesting and voicing their opinion against Obamacare. So to you they would be an unruly mob and to the queen of the Left, Pelosi, they are Un-American. """""

hehehehehe!....now that's just another fine example of how you mindless lemmings follow one another into the sea!

she said stopping the discussion was un-american, not people voicing an opinion. get it right einstein! "

"Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American." - (Nancy Pelosi) - AP

So voicing your opinion to loud is un-American.

"Pelosi and Hoyer contended that the protests were an "ugly campaign" meant to misrepresent health overhaul legislation before Congress as well as disrupt public meetings." - AP

How dare people not just follow along with what she wants. Who do the American people think they are. Don't they know the Government knows what they need better then themselves. They just need to drink their Kool-Aid, actually Flav-or-Aid and shut up.

"Democratic leaders have argued that the protests have been ginned up by the Republican Party and national conservative and industry groups...but many activists at the events have said they're motivated by real concerns about the health care plans." - AP

Okay, so they are mad the Republicans have "ginned up" protesters so the Democrats go and:

"Meanwhile labor unions and the Democratic Party are encouraging their supporters to go to town hall and other events to support President Barack Obama's health overhaul agenda." - AP

That's right they do the very thing they are accusing the Republicans of doing. In other words they are saying, "You can't do that but we can."

Also why did you not mention about Seniors not liking Obamacare? Oh that's right once again facts do not matter to you. Your turn oh head Lemming. Check you talking points to make sure you say it right. Just admit it bob they both do it, it's okay. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:51 PM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 1:03 PM:
" I'm trying to wrap my mind around just what kind of a nut job feels compelled to carry a firearm to a debate on health care. "

Maybe he was afraid of being attacked for having a differing opinion the Obama. It's happened before. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 12, 2009 11:56 PM:

" The Question wrote on Aug 12, 2009 4:50 PM:
" At the Bush town hall meetings about privatizing Social Security, only pre-screened supporters were permitted into the halls and anyone who even remotely looked like they might not be a supporter (such as those with the wrong T-shirt or whose car had the bumper sticker) were escorted out and threatened with arrest.
However, since that time apparently gun-toting violent mobs are the essence of democracy. Break out the pitchforks and torches! "

I love reading your posts they make me laugh. Their have been anti-Obamacare supporters locked out of meetings, "because of fear they might be to loud", and a conservative beaten by Obama union cronies, possibly with ACORN. One man has a gun, he can leagaly carry, again one man with a gun is now "gun-toting violent mobs". LOL!!! I guess next you will be saying the Seniors that are protesting are carrying lethal weapons, those being their walkers and canes.
Thanks for the laugh. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 13, 2009 12:04 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Aug 12, 2009 4:56 PM:
" The Tea Party "mobs" are not as spontaneous as they might appear. On July 24, an anti-health care reform group called Conservatives for Patients Rights (run by discredited hospital executive Rick Scott in conjunction with public relations professionals from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth campaign) sent a database to the Tea Party Patriots Health Care Reform Committee list serve with information on over one hundred upcoming congressional town halls. Robert MacGuffie, a volunteer for FreedomWorks who runs the website Right Principles, also chipped in by providing a strategy memo for the Tea Partiers, instructing them to "rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation...yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early....rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda...stand up and shout and sit right back down."
Huffington Post-

The Huffington Post, could you lean any farther. You have the gall to mouth off if someone quotes Fox News, something I have never done, then cite the Huffington Post.

Yeah, and it's all about average folks standing up for what they believe in, right jr? By the way, Rick Scott lost his job for his part in a scheme that bilked Medicare out of millions. "

Meanwhile labor unions and the Democratic Party are encouraging their supporters to go to town hall and other events to support President Barack Obama's health overhaul agenda. - AP

No the Demsocrats and labor unions are not doing the same thing. oh wait what else did the story say:
"many activists at the events have said they're motivated by real concerns about the health care plans." - AP
Look people who just don't like Obamacare. Need to get them out of there. Quick quiet these Un-Americans from voicing their opinions to loud. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 13, 2009 2:34 PM:

" Hey neo, how about telling us what she said about Bush, in the same article. You conveniently left that part out, didn't you? lol! "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 13, 2009 2:47 PM:

" The Question:"At the Bush town hall meetings about privatizing Social Security, only pre-screened supporters were permitted into the halls and anyone who even remotely looked like they might not be a supporter (such as those with the wrong T-shirt or whose car had the bumper sticker) were escorted out and threatened with arrest."

#### NOTE THAT THIS REALLY DID HAPPEN AT A BUSH RALLY IN DENVER, REPORTED IN THE DENVER POST (which I read online for I live part of the year in Colorado).####
==========================
Actually it was worse than this.
The 3 had tickets to the Bush speech which they had received from Congressman
Beauprez (Republican).
They arrived at the auditorium where Bush was to speak on Marh 21, 2005 in a car with a sticker, "No more blood for oil". They also had t-shirts with "No more lies." on them BUT had not opened their jackets to expose them.
After they were seated, two men with plugs in their ears and tags on their lapels identified themselves as Secret Service agents, demanded that the three leave, and escorted them out.
There was a scandal. "In sworn legal depositions, bouncers Michael Casper and Jay Bob Klinkerman for the first time named the White House officials who they say ordered the Denver Three to be excluded." It turned out that it was all a Republican policy that there was to be no possibility of any disruption at a Bush appearance, and anyone suspected of such was not admitted or if already in, forced to leave.
In Federal District Court, "The former [White House] official, Steve Atkiss, revealed the policy Friday in an interview after two volunteer bouncers identified him and a current White House staffer, Jamie O'Keefe, as the officials who ordered the so-called Denver Three activists sent away from the event."
People in a North Dakota event said their names were on a list of those to be excluded when Bush spoke there, and the ACLU sued in Federal District Court in behalf of 2 who had been similarly bounced from a Bush speech in West Virginia. "

Harry Potter wrote on Aug 13, 2009 9:48 PM:

" The Huffington Post, could you lean any farther. You have the gall to mouth off if someone quotes Fox News, something I have never done, then cite the Huffington Post.

First of all, the Huffington post doesn't try to pass itself off as a news outlet. It's all opinion. Lately there have been several articles critical of Obama on that site. When did you ever hear Fox critical of any Republican? You see things on that site that are not carried anywhere, not even on the corporate owned MSM, and certainly not the slanted Fox outfit.

One thing of note, anything posted on here that has been sourced as a Huffington post item, never gets refuted, only the site itself gets whacked at. That's pretty telling isn't it.

And you seem to be a bit testy lately. Getting enough sleep? "

All The Way wrote on Aug 14, 2009 5:52 PM:

AnnaNiemaus wrote on Aug 14, 2009 6:55 PM:

" 7X6Z9 wrote on Aug 12, 2009 8:20 PM:
"Are you kidding- angi61?

Out of that entire article THAT is the part that you chose to cherry pick to somehow justify these obvious pathetic cost-cutting measures? Patients who had been in pain for less than a year, where the cause was not known? Really? And that makes it less of a tragedy?"

Hey 7X6Z9, I have been in excruciating back pain for several years now. I've had those injections - of steroids, which are not without risk - and they didn't help much; I ended up having surgery anyway for my neck, and it helped immensely but I didn't ever have surgery for the lower back problems. You know why? Because I was downsized out of my job and I no longer have health insurance. How tragic do you think that is? Perhaps you think it's because I don't work and am laying around on the dole, but you'd be wrong (heck, if I were on the dole, I'd have Medicaid coverage!). I work two jobs all year, and two more part of the year, supporting myself and my family. I can't afford to be on disability. Employers aren't hiring full-timers because they don't want to offer health insurance, or I should say they can't afford to offer it; employers are at the insurance industry's mercy too.

But I digress. I'm just really amused at your sudden compassion for people who are in pain! Does that mean you now support a health care program that isn't insurance company-based, and doesn't have any connection to a person's employment? If that's so, I totally agree! "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 14, 2009 10:14 PM:

" Unknown Joe:"As I was reading I began to ponder why I was so opposed to health care reform. Why was there so much wailing and knashing of teeth on my part. So, here is what I came up with......."

I'm old enough to be your father, I think, so I'm going to give you some fatherly advice.

You were in the service of your country. Thank you. But when you got out of the service, you got Tri-care.
And it didn't work out well. But you said that was FOUR years ago. Remember who was president then??
One problem that people are ranting about now is the COST of a new program.
But recall that our previous president: (1) Took over with a budget surplus.
(2) He started a war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, who were the people who DID attack us, but then thought he could win votes w a more popular war. So he plunged into Iraq under the lie of "weapons of mass destruction". I remember in WWII when my Dad for the first time after the Great Depression was making some money, enough he had to pay income taxes PLUS A WAR SURTAX. But Bush didn't have the GUTS to pay for HIS war, so year by year the deficit grew. He didn't even have the courage to BUDGET for his war; he bragged about his budgets, but later in the year sneaked in extra appropriations for the war.
SO, HIS LARGE DEFICITS (which conservatives loved; ice cream for free)
are one reason people are reluctant to think of another deficit for getting healthcare improvement under way -- with the conservatives who loved the Bush deficits RANTING the LOUDEST now.
[Hypocrisy; sure.]
(3) And to save a little money so the boys on Wall Street could benefit from a big tax cut, YOU ended up with Tri-care.

Now I'm going to give you some advice that you may not welcome. You had, I believe, 3 children. You were having trouble covering expenses and you had a 4th? (am I counting right?) and then "Eight months later, we find that we are pregnant again."..... (5th)??

Joe, in these comments we find people who are ranting about people who bought big-screen TVs, big cars, big houses -- none of which they could afford -- and now everyhing is down the drain and they are looking to others for support. Joe, KIDS are a LOT more expensive than TVs, CARs, even HOUSEs.
So Joe, I looked at my two kids, then in Middle School. They had no health problems; they both seemed intelligent; and I knew I was going to have to pay some big college bills (and in fact I paid the way for one entirely through graduate school).
SO, JOE, I had a vasectomy. Well, its a bit late for you; your "horse" is already out of the barn ... but .....
I figure you are still galloping.....
By doing so I had the $60,000 to give my kids a good education (yes, I know that doesn't seem like much now, but this was 25 years ago). My kids were not afraid of work; they worked their bu**s off in summer for spending money.
But I paid it all; I told them, "After school, I don't want you slinging hash to pay your way thru the university; I want you in the LIBRARY." And I provided enough they could do that, and they became quite successful (you even see favorable mention of them in the papers now and then) and responsible.

So now things are working for you. I'm glad. BUT with the experience you've had w health care, hat in hand looking for handouts, you should SUPPORT THE PUBLIC OPTION. Yes, you have insurance. But do you know that 20% of all you pay for insurance is used for NEEDLESS OVERHEAD and PROFITS and HIGH LIVING FOR INSURANCE CEOs?
The most ridiculous thing I've seen this fall are people on MEDICARE who rant about "keeping the government out of my health care!!!!" MEDICARE IS GOVERNMENT health care; I have it, and NEVER have I been given a SINGLE order re choice of doctor, procedures I can or cannot have, drugs I can or cannot take. They negotiate great prices, pay their 80% without question.
"The great Obama himself has said that I can keep my coverage if I like it. I am not confident in that statement. Is it worth going to barricades over. You Betcha!" Joe, it's going to be even better; with a GOVERNMENT OPTION insurance companies will NOT DARE to raise prices as they have in the past, will NOT DARE to refuse care if your kids have an expensive illness, will NOT DARE to cancel your insurance. With your experiences, I see you've learned something. Congratulations; Good Luck -- and I hope you get a He** of a raise next year!!! "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 14, 2009 10:19 PM:

" NeoCon:
" OBAMA: SOCIALIST OR A COMMUNIST?
I dunno. It sounds pretty MARXIST to me."

NC, have you really READ KARL MARX????

I don't think you would recognize a Marxist if you saw one on the courthouse square. "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 14, 2009 10:36 PM:

" father bob:"coming back from santa fe friday afternoon..."

father bob, don't rub it in. I love NMex; as a young man tried to get a position at UNMex, no vacancies when I was available. But I still visit; like the Pueblo Cultural Center, the Maxwell Museum. Santa Fe. The Three Rivers Petroglyph NRS. The Salinas Missions N Mon. But greatest of all: Chaco!!!!! "

Cognitus wrote on Aug 14, 2009 10:42 PM:

" father bob:"well let's see at 230 MPG....or he11, let's even fudge that way down to 100 MPG i'll just bet we'll be ahead on energy spent to recharge. "

I dunno; each time I think Volt I see a power plant in the distance, belching smoke from coal..... I wish someone would accurately figure out the conversion from coal to miles per gallon. "

jrhendren wrote on Aug 18, 2009 1:08 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Aug 13, 2009 9:48 PM:
" The Huffington Post, could you lean any farther. You have the gall to mouth off if someone quotes Fox News, something I have never done, then cite the Huffington Post.

First of all, the Huffington post doesn't try to pass itself off as a news outlet. It's all opinion. "

THE HUFFINGTON POST THE INTERNET NEWSPAPER: NEWS BLOGS VIDEO COMMUNITY

Looks like they are trying to do just that.
________________________________________

Lately there have been several articles critical of Obama on that site. When did you ever hear Fox critical of any Republican? You see things on that site that are not carried anywhere, not even on the corporate owned MSM, and certainly not the slanted Fox outfit.

I did see that. Especially when he changed positions from the extreme, which the Huffington Post is, regarding government ran health care.
________________________________________

One thing of note, anything posted on here that has been sourced as a Huffington post item, never gets refuted, only the site itself gets whacked at. That's pretty telling isn't it.

As someone else stated it is opinion but they here is a refute from one of their new, I mean opinion, stories.

HEADLINE ON HOME SITE:
"A Dozen People" With Guns -- Including Two With Semi-Automatic Assault Rifles -- Gather Outside Obama Event

INSIDE REPORT WHEN CLICK ON:
"A man was spotted Monday afternoon carrying a semi-automatic assault rifle and a pistol at a pro-health care reform rally next to the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention in Arizona where President Obama was speaking.

The local paper The Arizona Republic reported: A man, who decided not to give his name, was walking around the pro-health care reform rally at 3rd and Washington streets, with a pistol on his hip, and an AR-15 (a semi-automatic assault rifle) on a strap over his shoulder. "Because I can do it," he said when asked why he was armed. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms."
Two police officers were staying very close to the man." CNN has video from the scene, and according to their reporter at the event, Ed Henry, there was another man, also carrying an assault rifle at the event. - Huffington Post

Is this that new math? Two equals a dozen? You would think if they were going to lie they would do a better job of it.
________________________________________

And you seem to be a bit testy lately. Getting enough sleep? "

I am tired, but you and your cohorts are the ones who seem testy. I know it's those darn facts that do. Sorry, I guess I could quit with the facts. No, don't think I will. "

JR wrote on Aug 18, 2009 8:23 PM:

" What I really don't understand is this:

The Democrats have the overwhelming majorities in both the House and the Senate; they have already threatened to use the reconciliation process to avoid Senate filibustering. In short, there was never anything keeping them from passing HR3200 as it stands through -- they don't even have to make concessions.

Then why all the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, why all the hesitancy coming from the Democrat side?

I don't believe the arguement of bipartisanship -- as they have already proven they can pick up some Republican votes for this, as well as already stated that they do not need nor feel the need for bipartisanship on this issue -- and if this is such an important issue, and the Democrats feel so strongly that this is for the good of the country -- then they have the motive and the means...but aren't doing anything but screaming about opposition to it, why? "

Mama says wrote on Aug 20, 2009 6:51 AM:

" When faced with medication $770 a month I just notified doctor I cannot afford the diabetic, heart, bloodpressure medicine and if kills me SO WHAT.
I got tired fighting a system who does not help the disabled, poor, and was told on social security not classed as poor. SOME OF THESE LAWMAKERS NEED TO LIVE ON THIS INCOME. I had money ONCE but health issues took all savings had saved. I could not get the advertized IF NEED MEDS TELL US, GENERICS $2 AND NAMEBRANDS $4 OR LESS. Well on social security had part b and not cover had to pay for part D, Part B cost $96 month and Part D is $29 and still costing an arm and leg. Could not believe one vial insulin $99. Called Liberty, get 7 vials $22 each. Medicaid was not much help as said had to pay the huge copayment but something was amiss as medication was $300 for just the insulin and heart med. MY PART. On Liberty 3 months of each meds was $250 for 3 months worth which is better but at least keeps me from buying food not good for me. *SMILE.
I figure at $770 month the $250 for 3 months a better deal but no big cure.
But there are NO FREE RIDES IN LIFE.
If government employees had live like us they would not make it. They are use to HAVING THIS, HAVING THAT, while we are use to doing WITHOUT. Well some seem able drive corvettes, wear designers, manicures, pedicures, eat at restaurants, have some nice vacations and yet have some state help and food stamps. (One in charleston aid office bragged how ate steak n shrimp.) WONDER HOW THAT WORKS? I need a new car and cannot afford one. But at least mine isn't a rustbucket. It is like ME, a little old but polished. hehe. Good luck to all in same boat as mama.
Be sure and go to auctions for furniture. House looks nice and not anything NEW. Went down Mattoon curb and saw a nice recliner, asked if have that, and guy put it on truck when had someone pick that up. Found a sofa same and it looked nearly new. Son saw a bigscreen and asked if have it, and guess what, only needed a new plugin wire. Picture was excellent and lasted us for six years. KEEP EYES OPEN AND EARS and find a lot of good things.
WE found lumber at the dump in good shape and built a shed out of that and found enough shingles for the roof too.
ONE MANS TRASH IS ANOTHER MANS TREASURE

Angels how did you comeout on your needs hon? Been thinking about you. "