" Apparently Springfield cant agree on how to identify and eliminate (or defer) unneeded spending programs. Obviously Patrick Quinn isnt a strong enough leader to force a consensus. A fair alternative is to cut ALL expenses by the same percentage until were spending less than we take in.
Tom Andres-

Just trying to help you out Tom. "

" Peggy, I really have no desire to argue with you, but when you label me as a naysayer and proclaim that I'm part of the problem, I must protest.

I'll begin by addressing the "size" of the problem. Do you find it odd at all that we're defining the problem in terms of dollars but, honest to God, no one seems to know whether the problem is a $9-billion deficit or an $11-billion deficit? The $2-billion difference (that's two BILLION!) should be a red flag that some very important people in Springfield don't know what the hell they are talking about. Less than six months ago, the "problem" was only around $2-billion. Has it occurred to you that this makes absolutely no sense at all?

Peggy, when you phrase the nuance of an income tax increase as "1.5%", do you really think people are fooled? It's a 50% increase in the income tax rate. Please, lets call a spade a spade.

Try to think past this current legislative session. Consider the effect ANY tax increase (1.5% or 50%) will have on our children and grandchildren. Consider the job losses Illinois will experience as employers search for more business-friendly states in which to conduct their enterprises.

It has taken us several years to reach this critical point. It may take four more years to reverse it. If we cut ALL STATE EXPENDITURES by 5% each year, we'll be back in the black by 2013. Our tax rates and our fee schedules will remain the same. Our poor and needy will continue to receive the services they now receive.

In spite of the label you try to stick on me and the other so-called naysayers, we are all looking for a solution here. As for Jim Edgars opinion, if he has told you that we need to increase our income tax rate by 50%, then I flat-out disagree with him. I guess that earns me the distinction of being a larger part of the problem than you first thought. "

" Hey Tom zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! lol! "

" Harry: "Hey Tom zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! lol!"

Ha! Boy, do I know! Seems like all the folks who are on, or have been on, the state payroll are in favor of increasing taxes - instead of cutting spending across the board. Who woulda thunk? "

" Why is it that the government, in essence a service industry, gets to immediately pass their costs onto their customers (taxpayers) through tax increases, while in similar circumstances, public sector service providers/industry risk going out of business when they pass their costs onto their customers? "

" Let's say you're a parent, and you have spoiled your kid. Let's say you made a mistake several years ago by promising your spoiled kid a weekly spending allowance with no strings attached. And let's say that as the kid's "needs" have grown, you've given him/her more and more each year - no questions asked.

Now let's say your spoiled rotten kid (now with a well developed sense of entitlement) comes to you, even sacrificing his/her private texting time with friends, to inform you that they need a larger spending allowance. And let's assume you lost your job several months ago and that even your unemployment benefits have now run out.

What do you tell your spoiled rotten brat of a kid? "

" Peggy, you really need to think about how much money the state already takes in. We are taxed not only on income but every purchase, every title, license, permit, every phone bill, heating bill, water bill...you name it, we are being taxed. Every time they say they need more taxes to fix the problem they get it. Is the problem fixed? NO!!! So what makes you think they'll "fix" it with more taxes this time? They won't. They never have yet and today looks pretty much the same as yesterday, last year and the year before. Until we hold their feet to the fire this will never change. It's time we said NO and make them change the system for a more responsible budget process. "

" Agreed, do we want what happened to California?? Lets have the social services but not the taxes that come with them. thats the syndrome here. I for one am tired of legislation using human services that affects thousands of lives as a pawn to demand votes for a new budget. I'm also tired of seeing state parks closed, reduction in unemployement benefits, and state employee pensions stolen and reused under a promise of reembersments (unlike our state rep Chapin Rose has said). Yet, I don't want to see the working class and middle to tax the brunt of the taxes. Tax the rich not the poor. "

" Don't worry, the serfs will be required to fill the feudal lords coffers.

They have to drag it out, and put sympathetic programs in the stocks, waiting for the guillotine out in the courtyard for all to see. Turns tyrants into heros, when they make the vote of thumbs up rather than down, as the bucket gets placed to catch one victim after another.

Government on all levels has returned the to middle ages in many ways. Creative excuses for grand extravagant poorly timed and questionably funded projects. Spending every dime they get and then some, with a built in cost of doing business increase mechanism to ease income up more and more each year. Not to mention all the creative accounting practices and programs, that sock away tax dollars for slush funds to pay for non essential expenses and questionable public and private investments.

The state and many entities have failed to do their basic job for so long, now even all the extra efforts to increase revenue, can't begin to impact all the money shuffling and required eventual repayments.

I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today, has been their go to not technically borrowing tool. They just kept poking another hole in the belt to get it to fit the bigger figured stature, now they have done it so much, they need to splice on some more leather, or just invest in a bigger belt.

Many of their fee and tax increases will likely result in even less income. They often base projected revenue increases from higher costs, on past average participation in those impacted areas staying on the same course.

Here a couple times 2nd hand, is the first I have heard of the proposed income tax increase being just for higher income brackets. This one says over 60k, another said 250k. Most of the population makes less than 60k. Population was projected to be up around 10% over the last decade. If that 1.2 million more citizens maintained the demographics of poor to not so poor, the state already got a 10% raise, over 10 years, on top of all their higher fees, and gambling profiteering schemes, which more and more resemble organized crime business models, than responsible use and collection of revenue from citizens.

Years of complacency have now come home to roost. Simply giving them a bigger blank check and deeper pools of revenue, will not fix the issues that led to red ink, long before the decline of the national economy played any part. They were broke by 2 billion before, the news broke the recession had begun. They failed to properly handle their responsibility to taxpayers, and want 1.5% more wiggle room, without addressing the issues that led to and perpetuate income stagnation. They hedge on campaign reform, to keep their potential for personal gain open, while they try to also say all the fat is trimmed out of government. Both concepts have personal gain, special interests, and ignoring reality ahead of responsibly representing taxpayers.

Many programs were added or created, based on indefinate long term funding sources. Much like the Lottery, they tried to lease out in its best year yet, that was sold to voters to fund education, got more and more pieces of that pie shifted from education to this and that, and property taxes still get hit, while many cities are now raising sales taxes to boost school funding.

I avoid shopping tolls of any kind, as much as possible. I am sure many other consumers will as they continue to add up, if they don't already. "

" theproletariat87, the taxpayers are not saying to shut down essential social services or state parks. The taxpayers are not asking Quinn or anyone else to fire state troopers or teachers or prison guards. What the taxpayers are telling Springfield is to do the job with the funds available.

If we continue to raise taxes and fees in Illinois, our corporate citizens will leave the state. Jobs will migrate to lower tax states, and we'll be sleeping atop prairie grass in teepees, fishing for our food from local streams.

Taxing just the rich isn't the answer. Remember, the rich don't pay taxes anyway. The end consumer of the products and services the so-called rich produce for sale pays all taxes and fees. Living within our means is the answer. "

" I never said it was the tax payers here in Illinois. For one as you know, California using a ballot referendum to vote on budget policies. I was just saying that the politicians in Illinois have been threatening to close the essential social services using it as a political pawn. Now if we closed down all loop holes for the rich to get out of paying their taxes that will help. Also providing a tax cuts for cooperations that say invest in clean energy or donate to local schools will bring business from different companies other than those willing to jump ship. Also trimming the budget will be essential as well (living within our means) but we can do it in other ways. Like for instance make state parks for self sufficient on a grass roots level. Have companies come in and install solar panels and allow each site to have its own lumber mill. This will help in money spent on energy and supplies in the long run. Another way is having state ran farms (grown by low level prison inmates) that produce food specifically for the schools. "

" theproletariat87, I completely agree with you that Quinn uses Illinois poor people as his political pawns. What's even more despicable is that our free press is letting him get away with it.

When you talk about closing down all loopholes so that the rich pay more taxes, thats where we part company. Illinois personal and corporate state income tax law is fairly straightforward. Exactly what loopholes are you referring to? Im all ears if you can name one tax-avoidance loophole that needs to be closed. "

" The Republicans have said they wouldn't favor a tax increase, forcing the Gov to make the move he did as far as workers are concerned. However, I received an email from a local GOP Representative who said there WOULD BE a tax increase 4 days ago. Pure political posturing, folks. When are we going to do what must be done as voters & vote ALL of these guys out of office? When are we going to hold them finally responsible for this whole mess THEY'VE created? 3 years in a row, that I can remember, that they've not passed a budget on time! I'm sick of the whole lot of em! Dems & Reps alike! They don't view "We the People" as their employers- they view us as their subjects! "

" I agree with what you said, warhorse67, except Quinn was not forced into anything. He could have kept all the spending programs going, full force, to help the poor and the disabled, but he should have ordered a pay cut for all the workers on the state payroll. That way, all the services are still received and the workers take a cut in pay but they keep their jobs.

You're right, though. Pure political posturing by BOTH sides! I'm sick of it too. The solution to this mess could have been so easy, so simple, so common sense. There's no way I'll vote for an incumbent next time. No Way! "

" The solution to this mess could have been so easy, so simple, so common sense.

Don't keep us in suspense, share that simple solution with us. "

" front line staff are not the problem. a pay freeze is understandable, though. the problem with state agencies are those at the top- directors have deputies- who have their own deputies etc, etc. it's a joke. the number of politically appointed administrators & assistants is appalling! you'd be hard pressed to find a handful of wardens with prior correction's experience at all. i know of band teachers & secretaries who are now wardens! hundreds of thousands of dollars could be saved if they cut from the top down in corrections alone. cutting front line staff- who've been dangerously understaffed for a decade now- is a recipe for disaster. personally, i think a sales tax is the way to go, then everyone in Illinois & those traveling through, will have to pay their due- not just the working men and women in this state. those who never paid (mostly Cook County) will continue NOT paying income taxes anyway. as usual, it's the working stiffs that'll get hammered. heck, anymore, one would almost be better off laying in a gutter babbling with his hand out! some politician will come along with Joe Lunchbox's paycheck to hand to him sooner or later! "

" Harry Potter // Don't keep us in suspense, share that simple solution with us.

Mr Potter, I already did. You're supposed to read; THEN respond. LOL You didn't catch the part where I said "...he should have ordered a pay cut for all the workers on the state payroll"? "

" Get the HELL out of my wallet!!!
Take a pay cut, shortten the work week
Stop giving yourselves pay raises. No sleeping in the Gallery. I'm sick of your Dam taxes,Hay Yoyo there recession going on! "

" Peggy, when you phrase the nuance of an income tax increase as "1.5%", do you really think people are fooled? It's a 50% increase in the income tax rate. Please, lets call a spade a spade.


Tom, you are right about the 50% part, however, it is still a 1.5% raise too. A spade is still a spade.


You sais: If we cut ALL STATE EXPENDITURES by 5% each year, we'll be back in the black by 2013.



5% each year? that's over 20%, I assume you can do simple math? Taking part of your post from above and adding 1 more word.

You said: Consider the effect ANY tax increase (1.5% or 50%) will have on our POOR children and grandchildren.

Oh, I'm sorry, I guess you just want to ignore them and they'll go away. Right

I know, I know, let their lazy parents get jobs, yeah right, in a country where the unemployment rate is over 9% and the county rate is over 10%.

But hey, there is a bright side to your plan though, there won't be as many overweight kids around. I assume you do realise that most underprivelidged kids are not overweight because they eat Happy Meals all the time, but because, usually their mothers can only afford to feed them Hot Dogs and Mac and Cheese 4 days of the week.

Sorry Tom, the 5% rule don't cut it. "

" Instead of tax increases, I believe uniting all Illinoisans into one not-for-profit health coverage pool (HB-311) utilizing private health care providers would solve our economic woes. This would present a tremendous cost savings for everyone, not just state and local government, compared to what we're spending now to keep an extremely greedy, unnecessary, immoral middleman price gouging healthy people and denying often desperately needed medical care to sick ones (the opposite of an affordable, sustainable model for consumers and every other business including "We the People's"). NO where is there more wasted fat that so desperately needs to be trimmed than on the gravy train our health insurance industry is riding at our collective expense. They make our war profiteers and oil barons look like chump changers.

Both houses of the California state legislature (twice) passed such a bill, and Arnold vetoed it (twice). The numbers had been crunched and California could have saved at least $14 Billion per year. Two years of honest health coverage reform would/could have pulled California out of its fiscal hole. Instead they are bankrupt, and all because one man sold the "Good of the Whole" out to the welfare of one huge industry.

Please wake up, People! Everyone who has done their homework (followed the money) as well as every other civilizd nation on Earth (but ours) knows what needs to happen here. Cut out extremely greedy, inefficient, immoral, unnecessary middlemen and utilize efficiencies of scale.

Insurers divert 31% of what we spend before it can begin to deliver medical care, compared to Medicare's 2-3% overhead. The potential $400 Billion/yr. dollar in national savings ((after everyone is covered reliably and comprehensively from cradle to grave) would create more economic stimulous than we could shake a stick at. Lives and our economy depend upon improving Medicare for All and shedding much-needed light on an industry that depends upon smoke and mirrors to bankrupt, disable, terrorize and kill innocent Americans while it feasts on our national tragedy.

Illinois could become a beacon of light in a nation of darkness, and show the rest of the country what honest health coverage reform looks like, for a REAL change. "

" Most of the budget deficit, not all, could be eliminated by removing the waste and special projects not really needed for the benefit of the people in the state. A modest cut across the board combined with elimination of the waste would get us close. Then we could look at a tax increase. But as it has been in the past, once the taxes or fees are increased, you never see the cuts. If you want to see people backing a tax hike, do the cuts first. You will have a better chance of getting support for it. "

" Sorry, medic57, I'll explain my plan again.

Yes, you're absolutely correct. 5% each year for four years amounts to 20%. According to Quinn, that's the amount of our budget shortfall, so why do you find it so out of line to cut expenses by the amount of our budget shortfall? The taxpayers who are still working are tapped out. Well over 10% of them are now unemployed!

The truth is I DO NOT want to ignore poor families, in particular, the children. I didn't say anything about lazy parents. You must have me confused with someone else. I didn't say a word about overweight kids. Again, you must have me confused with someone else.

Here's what I said. Let's say that a social services agency has an Executive Director who costs the taxpayer $120,000 a year in salary and benefits. Let's say ten agency staff members cost the taxpayers $600,000 in salaries and benefits. Let's say the agency budget includes other overhead expenses of $280,000. That's an agency budget of $1,000,000. Let's say that agency provides an essential service to the poor, perhaps pre-natal care or child care or mental health counseling or adult education services.

Assuming no tax increase, which would you rather do? Eliminate the agency all together, or cut the cost of administering the agency by 5% per year for four years? I'm certain the ten staffers would prefer TO TAKE A PAY CUT AND KEEP THEIR JOBS AND CONTINUE PROVIDING THE SAME LEVEL OF SERVICES TO THE POOR, and I'm sure the families being served would prefer that as well. Isnt that what Obama meant when he said WE ALL NEED TO HAVE SOME SKIN IN THIS GAME? "

" 4 words - Quinn, you're a Jackass! "

" Hey...here's an idea...

How about laying off a whole bunch of state workers... and then bringing in private sector contract firms to do the state workers jobs....?


You'd see a whole lot of cost savings then...similar to the cost savings private sector companies experience when they use outside contractors... "

" Tom

Problem is, poor families cannot stand ANY more cuts in any services.

You said: Our poor and needy will continue to receive the services they now receive.


Not if you cut 5% from their budget.

You said: the taxpayers are not saying to shut down essential social services or state parks. The taxpayers are not asking Quinn or anyone else to fire state troopers or teachers or prison guards. What the taxpayers are telling Springfield is to do the job with the funds available.



You simply cannot do the jobs as they are while cutting funding.


You said: Exactly what loopholes are you referring to? Im all ears if you can name one tax-avoidance loophole that needs to be closed.


You also said: Remember, the rich don't pay taxes anyway.


If there are no loopholes then why don't the rich pay taxes.


The tax code should be very simple,

Different tax level for different wages, only deductions for family and charities. Period, none other, Higher taxes on companies that send jobs overseas simply to save money. Pull out of Nafta and The WTO. "

" medic57, I'm sitting here smiling and shaking my head this morning, wondering how I can put this. You say that poor families cannot stand ANY more cuts in any services. Essentially, I agree with that, but surely you would admit that there are some services provided to the poor that are duplicitous. (To buy votes from those poor people being served!)

In my earlier hypothetical, I talked about a state agency with an Executive Director and a ten-member staff and a place from to provide services. The budget of this agency that provides an essential service to the poor was $1,000,000. In my comments I made it perfectly clear that the essential services would continue! I also made it perfectly clear that the budget of the agency would be cut by 5% each year for four years. What that means is that the Executive Director and the staff members and the landlord, etc, would be required to take a PAY CUT but that the essential services would continue, with all hands on deck. Whats so hard to understand about that, medic57?

You say: You simply cannot do the jobs while cutting funding. I disagree. Lets say you worked for a local private company. Your boss tells you that you will keep your job, but that in these tough times, your pay will be cut by 5%, starting today. Im sure you would not be happy with the pay cut, but Im also sure you would be thankful to still have a job.

On the tax issue: lets say you own an Illinois company that manufactures cars. Lets say your energy supplier decides to increase your energy prices by 50%. Will you pass the extra cost of your energy onto the folks who buy your cars? Yes, you will. Taxes are no different than any other bills. If your taxes are increased, you will pass those increased costs onto your customers. Thats why I say, the end consumer pays ALL taxes.

To add another wrinkle, try this. Lets say you have a competitor in Texas who also makes cars, and is paying significantly lower state taxes, if any at all. Because of high Illinois taxes, your competition has a distinct cost advantage over your company. Will you move your company to Texas in order to offer more competitive pricing for your cars? The correct answer is YES, in a heartbeat. "

" NEOCON, outsourcing in the private sector v outsourcing in the public sector is very very different. In the public sector, it often ends up that political cronies get the contracts and they do it far less efficiently than the government would have.

Sad yet true. "

" Tax increases are not the answer. Tax cuts spur economic growth. The state needs to fire a bunch of tax-sucking bureaucrats and lower taxes. History has shown that every single time there has been a tax cut, the economy has improved, and the government collected more taxes than before the tax cuts. Why some politicians refuse to study economic history and apply it is beyond me. I suppose they're just stupid. "

" exactly medic, agreed, also tom to show you a way for the rich to get out of taxes. One phrase: Tax Shelters. Have the federal government reduce the amount of money that can be shipped over seas. This prevents the elite from being able to have large amounts of money spread throughout foreign banks. There are also should be measures to tax more out of companies that ship over seas. "

" Mr Potter, I already did. You're supposed to read; THEN respond. LOL You didn't catch the part where I said "...he should have ordered a pay cut for all the workers on the state payroll"?


I guess you're not aware that most state employees are working under a contract that is a legal agreement negotiated through their unions. I may be wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. The governor does not have the power to do what you suggest. Of course the governor could ask for the state employees to take pay cuts, but is it realistic to think they would? How many people would voluntarily take a pay cut. I suspect most would not.

Of course the governor can lay people off, but he can't arbitrarily cut wages for those working under a union contract.

While it's true that the governor has a lot of discretion when it come to how money is spent, he doesn't have the authority to cut the wages of the union members who probably constitutes well over 95 percent of all state employees.

I seriously doubt that cutting the wages of the remaining 5 percent of the state work force would make much of a dent in the current deficit.

Personally, I think this whole fiasco is a cat and mouse game being played out by both political parties in Springfield.

Sorry, but simple truth is that you're idea is not feasible. "

" theproletariat87, please answer this question: Why would an individual or a corporation send money off shore to a so-called tax shelter? If you answer that question honestly, you will pinpoint the nature of the problem with the IRS tax code.

While you're at it, answer this question: Why would a corporation move manufacturing facilities out of the country? Mulitple choice: (a) labor cost, (b) government regulation, (c) tax code, (d) all of the above. "

" It seems that people that work for the state are special and seem to think there entitled to cut above the ordinary person. "

" Come on, Harry, let's not be so 'literal'. Obviously, it's not that simple, but the fact is, it's entirely possible. I agree, Quinn does not have the power to unilaterally break a binding labor contract, neither does the General Assembly. However, if Quinn is a leader, he should have suggested re-negotiating all state contracts labor, services, everything!

It's done in private industry all the time (reference GM and Chrysler) when economic conditions warrant. If the company is headed for failure unless a contract is reopened for re-negotiation, the unions and contractors come to the table and start over. Better to have a state job or contract with lower dollars than to face termination or bankruptcy. "

" I was talking with a local small business owner yesterday about the state of the economy and the state of politics. It was a short conversation. Here's his summation: We're about out of options. It would be simpler to sign our bank account over to the feds and the state and the county, and they can write us a check to us for whatever remains after they're done. "

" " It seems that people that work for the state are special and seem to think there entitled to cut above the ordinary person. "
------------

Well Hammbone, that's because the vast majority of them are Liberal Democrat Bureaucrats and Union thugs. They tend to be very generous- with other peoples money.

How dare you question them. You're obviously a wealthy racist homophobic gun-toting Bible-beater who keeps the poor eating out of dumpsters and living in back alleys. And you probably drive around in a huge gas-guzzling giant-carbon-footprint pickup truck and kill puppies with a pitchfork. You're just an evil Rethuglican. "

" Hammbone wrote on Jul 16, 2009 6:16 AM:
"It seems that people that work for the state are special and seem to think there entitled to cut above the ordinary person."

Hammbone, the truth is anyone employed by the state or the federal government IS a cut above. Where else can you get a pay raise and a twenty-and-out pension while the rest of the country is falling down around them? One of these days, EVERYONE will be working for the Central Committee. Don't you see that coming? I do. "

" Hey Tom, allow me to add some addition reasons?

(e) to maximize profits to insure the continuation of those obscene bonuses that only those at the top enjoy.

(f) lack of patriotism.

(g) greed

(h) slave labor

And no, I'm not the proletariat. lol! "

" I guess any economic system has its extremes, Harry, including good old American capitalism. But when you dwell on issues such as executive bonuses, aren't you being a bit covetous? And when you say it's unpatriotic to have an overseas operation, aren't you being a bit naive and narrow minded? And when you use terms such as greed and slave labor to describe American overseas operations, are you saying your 403b (or whatever) doesn't include shares of IBM, GM, Microsoft, etc? Are you saying that American companies shouldnt spread opportunity to third world countries? Should we just let those poor folks rot in their third world squalor? Hmmm, and I thought you were a bigger man than that. "

" Spot on harry! and what do you mean by union thugs 7x6z? "

" But when you dwell on issues such as executive bonuses, aren't you being a bit covetous?


Not at all Tom, I wasn't dwelling on it, I was merely adding it to your list. I think to ignore those additional factors is being rather naive. And I don't buy your idea that American corporations are trying to spread opportunity to the underdeveloped countries of the world. I think perhaps you're the one spreading something here with that one.
Lol! As your idol Limbaugh is so fond of saying, follow the money. lol!

On an additional note, yes my portfolio contains investments in several multi-national corporations. To tell you the truth my concern here is with financial security for myself and my family. I will tell you this, I told my financial planner to stay away from Halliburton and any of it's subsidiaries, but yes GE is included and yes I am aware of their involvement with military contracts. I have no problem with that, I just don't want any connections to anything that Dick Cheney is involved with. But that may be impossible, given his vast holdings. lol! "

" Harry, as I'm sure you know, labor is a commodity that knows no borders. Why do you not object when a multi-national in your "portfolio" buys oil, for example, from a third world nation; but you think it's outrageous to buy labor from that same nation? Come on, that makes no sense.

By the way, just take a guess, do you think there's any slave labor helping to get that oil from under the sand and into the tanker? "

" We have no choice on the oil Tom, but we do have a choice when it comes to doing business with countries that employ sweatshop type of manufacturing. In fact that was the start of Tom Delays downfall. Remember that? He was taking contributions, more accurately bribes, to stop any government interference for one of his sweatshop owning buddies. As I recall, Delay was trying to keep employee protection laws from being applied in one of the American territories. Knowing how you hate those pesky regulations, like OSHA and child labor laws, minimum wages etc, that you seem to think are a big part of the problem facing manufacturers, I'm sure you would have agreed with Delays position too. Bill Moyers did an interesting story on that whole episode a few years back. I'll have to dig that one up for you, as I'm sure Fox news didn't cover it. lol.... "

" Here you go Tom:

Northern Mariana Island legislation
In the 1990s the island government of the Northern Marianas Islands hired Jack Abramoff and his lobbying firm Preston Gates and Ellis to lobby against minimum wage laws and labor standards that the Clinton administration was trying to get through Congress. The Northern Marianas Islands were notorious for their textile companies run by Chinese and Hong Kong businessmen who brought young men and women to the islands to work in sweatshops and sexshops.

DeLay and Dick Armey were treated to a number of trips to the islands as Abramoff lobbied them. While on the islands they "played golf, snorkled and made whirlwind visits to factories especially spiffed up for the occasion, according to several accounts." DeLay proclaimed, "I have witnessed the economic success of the Marianas," and pointed a finger at the enemy, "You are up against the forces of big labor and the radical left." DeLay has also called the islands "a perfect petri dish of capitalism," and, "my Galapagos island."

While on a trip to the Islands, DeLay promised not to put the bill on the legislative calendar. DeLay has since blocked a fact finding mission planned by Representative Peter Hoekstra by threatening Hoekstra with the loss of his subcommittee chairmanship.



More of those conservative values you like to talk about? "

" Harry, sometimes its mighty frustrating trying to carry on a decent conversation with you, let alone an honest dialogue; but when you try to put words in my mouth, it becomes down right impossible to have a meaningful exchange. Actually, we do have a choice about where we buy our oil surely you know that.

Perhaps if you would stop with the party politics all the time, you could learn something new and actually influence someone else's thinking. The only regulations I hate are the ones you and I would probably agree are too big a burden on our economy, with little or no positive effect. To the best of my knowledge, Ive never stated my position to you on OSHA, child labor laws, or minimum wage law, so why would you attribute those words to me? And, Harry, for you to place credence on anything the intellectually dishonest Bill Moyers has to say doesnt exactly build your own credibility.

You mention Tom DeLay. Thats OK, even though no charges were ever brought against the man. Id like to know why you didnt also mention Nancy Pelosi. Im sure you recall that she was the one who inserted an exemption into the House bill for minimum wage so that her buddies at Del Monte Corp (headquartered in SFO) could skate at their American Samoa location for StarKist Tuna. Heal thyself, Potter. "

" As usual Mr Potter you only tell part of the story. Here's what you conveniently omitted:


Sen. Clinton, Guam and Sweatshop $$$: A Stain on the Democratic Party...

From TheDailyKos (April 27 2008) "In my book, money from the Tan Family is worse than money from Jack Abramoff.

Tan Family money is cash directly tied to crimes against humanity. It is money earned off of exploitation and theft of labor. It is money made off of human trafficking. It is the definition of "dirty cash".

Between September 30 and October 2 of 2005 Willie Tan and four other family members gave Senator Clinton $10,000"
----------


Aren't you glad I'm around to call you out on your habitual lies and half truths Mr Potter? No no- no need to thank me, Harry. The pleasure's all mine.

;-) "

" Hillary: We wont let human rights get in the way of trade with China


(TheHuffingtonPost (Feb 20 2009)-- Amnesty International and a pro-Tibet group voiced shock Friday after US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton vowed not to let human rights concerns hinder cooperation with China.

Paying her first visit to Asia as the top US diplomat, Clinton said the United States would continue to press China on long-standing US concerns over human rights such as its rule over Tibet.

"But our pressing on those issues can't interfere on the global economic crisis, the global climate change crisis and the security crisis," Clinton told reporters in Seoul just before leaving for Beijing.

T. Kumar of Amnesty International USA said the global rights lobby was "shocked and extremely disappointed" by Clintons remarks.)


Hillary wanted to stress that human rights are important, but that the Obama administration has its Liberal values prioritized. They appear to be ranked in this order:

1- Business (trade)
2- Business (energy policy)
3- Security (North Korea and Taiwan)
4- Reminding China not to enslave, beat, and kill people.


More of those Liberal values you like to talk about, Mr Potter? "

" Your last post gave me a headache, Tom. I think I'll wait until tomorrow to respond. Right now I'm busy keeping the stalking troll cranked up. Sorry, but that's more fun than arguing with somone who's views are rather limited. lol! "

" " Your last post gave me a headache, Tom. I think I'll wait until tomorrow to respond."
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Sure Mr Potter. That's a much more convenient explanation than actually addressing the fact that my posts on Hillary and Obama's connections to slave labor completely obliterated your Tom DeLay talking points. Oh and, over on another thread I'm dismantling the many lies you told under your "kamfong" name. Run along now Harry. You have a busy day of lying and story-telling ahead of you, Mr Potter. "

" More of those Liberal values you like to talk about, Mr Potter?

You have a busy day of lying and story-telling ahead of you, Mr Potter. "

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One shouldn't be so critical of the Harry Potter's, Father Bob's, The Question's, and the Cognitus's of the world.

We all know how they know how to pontificate about how the world SHOULD be with their value judgments.

But it's not like they know the trials and tribulations of the people that have to roll out of bed in the morning and TRULY earn a living in the world...

...they all "worked" in some capacity were the taxpayer paid their salaries. "

" Perhaps I was a bit harsh including the child labor laws Tom. Considering that you wave the conservative banner quite regularly, I don't think it's hard to see why I would think you would be against things like OSHA, EPA and minimum wage laws and the like though. Most conservatives rail against such things with regularity. To this day they rant about government regulations. We are living with the results of deregulation. I think that most would agree with that, and both sides of the political spectrum busy trying to blame each other for it.

From someone who sings the praises of the off the wall whack job Ann Coulter, I found it somewhat amusing what you had to say about Bill Moyers too. Perhaps you would like to explain the intellectually dishonest comment. Is it because he worked in a Democratic administration? Or is it the fact that he leans toward the liberal side? Do you really think all liberals are intellectually dishonest?

I have included a quote by Moyers that I suspect would cause you to feel the way you apparantly do.


"I'm going out telling the story that I think is the biggest story of our time: how the right-wing media has become a partisan propaganda arm of the Republican National Committee. We have an ideological press that's interested in the election of Republicans, and a mainstream press that's interested in the bottom line. Moyers said: Therefore, we don't have a vigilant, independent press whose interest is the American people."

Is the fact that the right wing media was called out for what it really is by Moyers your issue with him? Can you seriously deny that the right wing media doesn't push the Republican agenda 24/7?

And as far as Nancy Pelosi goes, I'm not particularly a big fan. Both political parties have their partisan hacks, but I have defended her when the right wing has been dishonest when making comments about her. (I'm sure that one will send the stalking troll back to glean all of my past posts for hours). lol!

Oh, and as far as influencing others thinking, that may be your goal, but I have no particular desire to do that. I'm merely expressing my views.

If my comments are causing you so much frustration perhaps you should consider ignoring them. I do enjoy the ongoing discussions and banter with you, but I don't want to cause you to get an ulcer over what I post, or to go into a complete meltdown as my stalker apparantly has. lol!

Now turn off Fox news and go out a have a bagel and spend some money. Mattoon and the state of Illinois needs the tax dollars.

Seriously, have a good week end, my friend. "

" I wonder if this would help. We have a raffle for Sen? Burris senate seat. When we've taken in 11bn, we let Chicago pick a winner. "

" Basically its like this: Of course Clinton is involved in sweatshops, she's dirty capitalist just like the rest in Washington. In the end democrats are just like the republicans. The bottom line to our elite is money. We've heard this before but its true. Just like the so called American "Revolution". If you look back at the history of that time you realize that those leading the fighting of British rule did it based on economic reasons, not freedom, this was used to gain support. Only to gain the common mans support did the "revolution" start espousing the ideas of freedom and liberty. Now not to down play the good attributes that the "revolution" brought, yet it is one more example of elitist control and manipulation of the masses.









; "

" "...they all "worked" in some capacity were the taxpayer paid their salaries."
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I believe you're on to something, NeoCon. "

" Peggy, a lesson in Illinois history:

Governor Jim Thompson- 1980s: we need to raise taxes and state fees. We're not bringing in enough to pay our bills.
We said OK, we gave it to him

Jim Edgar-1990s: we need to raise taxes "temporarily" to get us out of this deficit. We said OK, we gave it to him

George Ryan-1990s: we need to double all state fees, permits, licenses, ticket amounts and sales taxes to "fix" our deficit. We said OK, we gave it to him.

For the last 25 years we've heard the same old line. "We need to raise taxes because the state will be broke if we don't". We gave in every time and did it "fix" anything?....NO!!! They just took the extra income and spent it without "fixing" a da*% thing and constantly creating even more debt instead the whole time. Now it's the same old line again. Well, here's another well used line that we Illinoisans need to canter back to Springfield:

"Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." We've been fooled and fooled and fooled. I'm ready to take off the sheepskin and tell them NO! We will hear this "we're broke, we need more money" mantra over and over and over again until we citizens say, "You cannot fool us again!" We are broke too but we cannot go to our bosses and demand more money. We must BUDGET responsibly. Many of the decisions we have to make budgeting aren't pleasant ones but we cut back where we have to to BUDGET our money. This is the lesson Springfield needs to learn today. Every time we cave, they just spend and spend and spend putting more burden on our working people and businesses forcing business and people to move out of IL to find a less expensive place to live. If we allow this "temporary" tax increase, we might as well kiss any kind of economic recovery goodbye. NO TAX INCREASE!!!! "

" You know, Harry, for someone with a career in rehab counseling, you habitually (excuse the pun) come across as a bit harsh, certainly not measured or seeming the least bit willing to consider another persons point of view. As Ive said before, when you are able to separate yourself from strict party-line thinking and when you stop labeling all conservatives as Republicans (some Democrats are very conservative about some issues, my friend), youll make some progress. If youre truly interested in change (and I think you are), youll drop the bucket thinking and come up with your own bi-partisan (or multi-partisan) political philosophy.

Are you not bothered by the reality that your opinions here would be much more meaningful if you identified yourself, so that the folks could engage a real life form instead of an ill-defined cyber Harry? "

" It's pretty funny to hear leftists snivel about Fox News when Chris Matthews on MSNBC got all girly and had "leg tingles" for Obama. Freaking hilarious! "

" Are you not bothered by the reality that your opinions here would be much more meaningful if you identified yourself, so that the folks could engage a real life form instead of an ill-defined cyber Harry? "

Rehab counseling? Huh?

You must not be keeping up Tom, don't you know that I'm every poster on here that agrees with my current posting name, Harry Potter. LOL! "

" Rehab counseling? Huh?

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Oh but weren't you a teacher at one time Mr Potter? Now didn't I see that in the archives? "