" Good letter, education (full and complete and unbiased) will go a very long way in preventing unwanted pregnancies. "

" WOW! what a great letter, thanks Rosa! "

" Tahnk you for your letter. From my perspective, it was well written and did a good job of expressing your point of view. I also happen to agree with most of your comments. "

" Well-written letter. If you read the Roe v Wade decision, you'll see that the court used 1974 scientific data to justify its decision: states can ban third trimester abortions because babies are fully human by then, states can regulate them in the second trimester, but must allow first trimester abortions. (If you haven't read Roe v Wade, do so; it's quite interesting).

I don't know when life begins. But I do know when most women discover they're pregnant, the baby has fully unique human DNA, already has a heart beat, nervous system, organs, and brain waves. Does that baby have rights, then? Personally, this makes voluntarily terminating pregnancies after 6-8 weeks morally challenging.

At the very least, the Court should take the latest scientific research, and re-examine the Roe v. Wade decision. Scientific understanding of the human body has come a long way since 1974. "

" WOW, the only people missing are The Question and Father Bob. "

" medic57 wrote on Apr 29, 2009 2:18 PM:
" WOW, the only people missing are The Question and Father Bob. """"


shows how attentive and brilliant you are "

" As I have stated many times to any who would listen, and many who don't want to, this issue is not one the state or federal government really should have any say in, though I do understand the reasoning behind having a cut off date when an abortion (by choice) can happen.

The decision to abort a pregnancy is one that should be between the woman, for the most part though in some cases the father's input should be considered, the doctor and what ever higher power those people may believe in. Personally I do not believe abortion is an acceptable form of contraception, but I also do see where it would be acceptable in certain circumstances. My beliefs are just that, mine, and I really do not feel I have any right to force them on others. It is one thing to share what I believe and feel, it is another to force someone to abide by it.

BTW: Beyond the issue of when life begins, etc the later an abortion occurs the more dangerous it is to the mother. "

" father bob wrote on Apr 29, 2009 3:16 PM:
" shows how attentive and brilliant you are "

I've noticed medic doesn't usually leta little lack of reading get in the way of his comments. "

" I have known many people who were adopted and have no idea under what circumstances they were conceived. Are they any less valuable than the person who was conceived through a planned pregnancy? Surely not!! I am a Christian, but even if I weren't, as a human it is obvious to me that ripping a fetus from his mother is wrong. I don't necessary think it should be illegal, but as a society and as humans, we should be saying that this is just not right. Planned Parenthood has hurt infants but cutting short their life from the womb, and the mothers who either have medical or mental complications from the procedure. God gave us free will, so I guess abortion should be kept legal. But we should treat it as the abhorent option that it is. "

" A woman has the "choice",have the baby or kill it. "

" Bec I think you go too far with calling abortion an "abhorent option", I'd say a necessary option, and sometimes a less than ideal option, even a sad option in some cases, but abhorent, no. "

" Susan

Ripping a baby in 2 or crushing it's head at 8 months IS abhorent, no matter how you look at it.

And when is an abortion at 8 months necessary? "

" Honestly Medic you are so melodramatic you must have been an actor in melodrama at one time. Is amputating a limb abhorant? Or is it a sad but necessary option, some times? "

" I see Susan, so late term abortions are always neatly done, with no loss of body tissue from a baby that can feel absolutely everything. And now you're comparing amputations with tearing body parts of off a fully developed baby. I would say that 99% of the time, when an amputation is done, it is done in an operation room under general anesthesia, unlike a late term abortion where none is used on the baby. Melodramatic you say, I would venture to say that the real thing is a million times more melodramatic to the life that is being snuffed out. "

" A fetus that is already dead in the womb at eight months doesn't feel anything Medic which is sometimes the case with late term abortions. Note I said sometimes. Perhaps you should quit reading the pro-life horror stories and concentrate on the appropriate points made in this writers letter which are the points I and others have been stressing from the beginning. Education, Education, Education. AND when a woman has to make a difficult decision that decision is none of your business, she should not be judged or condemned or persecuted. Doctors and their patients must be the ones that make the difficult choices. To do otherwise is immoral, barbaric and inhumane. Until babies can be developed outside a womb without complications and birth defects, the womans life comes first. "

" If people want abortion outlawed, those same people should work equally hard to see that the mothers who will be forced to carry their children to term have extensive financial, educational and social support. Further, provision must be made for the support of the child who is then born, as well as continued counseling, etc., for the mother who gives birth to him or her. It does neither the mothers nor the children any good to make abortion illegal unless we create a system whereby both may be nurtured, cared for and not stigmatized. Many churches make some effort to do so, but none do *enough*, my own included. Christ would help these women, their children and families, so it rings hollow when I see my Christian brethren railing against abortion but making no effort to help the mothers and their unborn (and born) children. We cannot have it both ways, if we are to remain true to our faith. "

" Susan

A fetus that is already dead in the womb at eight months is NOT an abortion, it's a stillbirth. Perhaps you should learn the difference between an abortion and a stillbirth. "

" So will wearing a condom Shumpries.To your post apr 29 @ 8:18 am. "

" Until babies can be developed outside a womb without complications and birth defects, the womans life comes first. "


Life, yes

Convenience, NO. "

" For those who think having a hole drilled into ones head and having the brain sucked out is a great idea should try it on themselves. Can someone explain to me why in a late term abortion, if the fetus can survive outside the womb and the mother has to deliver it anyway, why it needs to be killed? "

" Medic it is a stillbirth only if the baby is born dead,(whether labor is induced artificially or not) not aborted. "

" And Medic as I said on the other post, I forgot which one I was on when I wrote, women don't go through 8 months of expectation, planning, discomfort and health issues only to decide for TRIVIAL reasons that they have had enough and don't want any part of this "thing" inside of them. Implying that their reasons are trivial is barbaric, inhumane and immoral. "

" shumphreys wrote on Apr 30, 2009 4:27 PM:

" A fetus that is already dead in the womb at eight months doesn't feel anything Medic which is sometimes the case with late term abortions."
----------
That is NOT a abortion at all, it is removal of the dead child (like still birth). No one in the world that disagrees with abortion would disagree with the removal of a dead fetus. "

" Abortion is most definitely abhorrent. Why doesnt someone answer Angry White Females question? If the fetus can survive outside the womb and the mother has to deliver it anyway, why it needs to be killed?

By the way it is not just a mass of cells a fetus it is a living baby a human being that feels pain and has emotion. "

" I know a girl who was "in denial" for 8 months and did go through it for the wrong reasons. She didn't want to have a baby & didn't feel adoption was an option.This baby was her own doing. I don't feel "condoms are the answer" I feel that family (note that I didn't say school I said family) support for abstinence is the best solution. Too many parents say "the kids are going to do what they are going to do" Teach them responsibility for themselves and they will act more responsibly.
And to whoever said it, a rape victim will need counseling no matter if they give birth or not so in my humble opinion, yes give the child life, with another family if necessary, but don't make a terrible crime have 2 victims. that gives a rapist even more control. No one realizes how much this decision will affect them even if they DO have it for the "right" reasons. "

" Angry White Female can you give me precise incidents when this has been done, that the baby was NOT severely damaged (may look alright) but something vital inside hadn't formed right and that the baby would NOT die once outside the womb? Or do you just listen to horror stories without checking for veracity? The womb is like a life support system, it can keep a baby alive that won't be able to survive on its own once the life support tube/system is removed. "

" Mr. Gordon from Wikipedia, "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus/embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death." "

" Statistics from Wikipedia, In the US only 1.4% of abortions are done after 21 weeks. Fetus viability is iffy between 21 and 27 weeks, with many surviving children suffering from life long health problems and birth defects. Of the reasons for late term abortions which is usually for any abortion after the 20th week 2% cite fetal problems and since 1.4% are performed after 21 weeks that 2% reason could cover ALL of them. As I said women don't go through 8 months (32 weeks) of a pregnancy and just decide they have had enough, get rid of it. "

" And killed is the right word, after it is outside the womb it is no longer an abortion, it is murder. "

" Intact dilation and extraction (partial birth abortion)
In this procedure, the physician pulls the fetus feet-first out of the uterus into the birth canal, except for the head which is kept lodged just inside the uterus.
The base of the fetuss skull is punctured with a sharp instrument such as a long scissors or pointed metal tube.
A catheter is inserted into the wound and removes the fetuss brain with a powerful suction machine. This causes the skull to collapse, and allows for the expulsion of the fetus.
Possible complications

Risks

Uterine infection
Blood clots to heart, lungs and brain
Heavy bleeding
High blood pressure
Reaction to anesthesia
Infertility "

" nursy mommy,According to all the gay right activists posting on this thread the baby concieved by rape,would be born an automatic rapist,they are the same people that argue that homosexuality is hereditary.So why would a rape victim want to bring another rapist into the world? "

" How is a late term abortion performed? Please educate me Shumphreys because apparently in your expert opinion I have the wrong information even though it's information I have heard over and over. I understand what a womb is to a baby thank you. Thanks Medic for the detailed info. Maybe she's never heard it before? Medically, they can survive outside the womb past seven months though they do need a lot of extra care. In fact I just looked it up and they can keep babies born at 24 weeks alive. But I guess some don't think their little lives are worth it. "

" Kamfong we are just beginning to unravel the mysteries of genetic inheritance, at this point in time we know that there is a genetic component to some behaviors, we just don't know how much is genetic and how much is nurture or which behaviors are strongly influenced by genes and which aren't. AND don't forget that every natural act of procreation is a crap shoot, no one knows which genes the fetus will get until testing is done later in life and we are just beginning to figure out what those genes influence. Chances of the baby of a rapist growing up to be a rapist, who knows? I'd worry about aids and other STDS. "

" AWF

As much as that info needed to be known, it is heartbreaking to even read it. I guess knowing those babies have a special place to live now makes it a little better. "

" personally i don't agree with abortion but i'm not willing to impose my views on the entire population and there may be a case when i would actually want/need one. that being said....medic and angry white female...who is going to pay for the care of the children that aren't wanted? all of those babies born between 24 weeks and full term that are discarded by their mothers because they wanted an abortion but couldn't get one? there are plenty of people in the US that would adopt them, i'm sure but in the meantime, who pays their hospital bills? "

" Perhaps Angry white Female you should learn to do your own research rather than relying on the scare tactics and horror stories of folks like Medic. Just Google partial birth abortion, and you will find a wealth of information. It is easy to tell which information is impartial, tells the facts rather than sensational. Education would help you out. There is no excuse for ignorance in this day and age. "

" I read the posts once in a while and seldom participate. I have noticed that no matter what the subject we have a poster always quoting something or some one. Saying we all should read and educate ourselves, and now she is quoting Wikepedia? Really, where does this info come from? Same poster always pushing the fact we need to be more tolerant toward others. What about being more tolerant toward the unborn? How about being more tolerant toward us pushy Christians instead of trying to convenience us of your views?
Yes the poster attacks only the Christians not any of the other religions or Gods they speak of. I believe an abortion should be allowed only in life threatening situations, not as a matter of convenience. "

" According to an NPR report "'Partial-Birth Abortion:' Separating Fact from Spin"..According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute only .2 % of all abortions use this technique called by its medical terminology D & X. The vast majority of late term abortions between ao and 24 weeks gestation. AND contrary to claims of some abortion opponents, most such abortions do NOT take place in the third trimester of prenancy, or after fetal "viability." When some members of Congress tried to amend the bill to ban only those procedures that take place after viability, abortion opponents complained that would leave most of the procedures legal. So get your facts straight and quit sensationalizing a serious issue and quit telling untrue stories. "

" Honestly EZ there is more than just Wikipedia on line or have you never checked? Wikipedia often, though not always is quite factual, and straight forward, plain talk. AND it lists sources so you can check the facts your self, AND as I said there are plenty of other sources to check out and compare information. "

" EZ try being more tolerant and understanding of the needs of women, a womans life comes first. "

" Susan please define a womans needs. "

" pj1983

80% of late term abortions are NOT done because the baby is deformed or unhealthy, they are done because one (1) Shrink said the mother MIGHT have mental issues with the birth (show me a mother who deosn't) Some shrinks can find justification in anything.

Susan wrote: According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute only .2 % of all abortions use this technique called by its medical terminology D & X.

Yet, George Tiller (Tiller the Killer( has performed over 60,000 in 20 years and his counselors counsel women over the phone.

The D&X procedure itself is rather gruesome.1 The abortion practitioner instrumentally reaches into the uterus, grasps the fetus' feet, and pulls the feet down into the cervix. The reason this is done is not as a medical necessity, but to avoid actually birthing the baby. If the baby were fully born, killing it would be considered murder. The fetus is then pulled down the birth canal until it has been entirely birthed except the head. Surgical scissors are forced into the base of the fetal skull while the fetus is lodged in the birth canal. This blind procedure risks maternal injury from laceration of the uterus or cervix by the scissors and could result in severe bleeding and the threat of shock or even maternal death. A suction apparatus is introduced into the hole in the base of the skull and the fetus' brains are removed through aspiration. The baby is then born dead. The entire procedure is performed on the fetus without the use of anesthesia even though it is clearly capable of feeling pain (studies have shown that the ability to feel pain begins early in the second trimester2).

D&X is most commonly performed between 20 and 24 weeks and thereby raises questions of the potential viability of the fetus. Information from 1988 through 1991 indicates a 15% viability rate at 23 weeks' gestation, 56% at 24 weeks, and 79% at 25 weeks.3 Proponents of D&X have asserted that the procedure was rarely performed (approximately 450-500 per year) and only used in extreme cases when a woman's life was at risk or the fetus had a condition incompatible with life.4, 5 In actuality, one facility alone admitted to performing 1500 of these procedures, the vast majority of which were carried out on healthy mothers with normal fetuses.6 Dayton, Ohio, physician Martin Haskell, MD, who had performed more than 700 partial-birth abortions, stated that most of his abortions are elective in that 20- to 24-week range and that "probably 20% are for genetic reasons, and the other 80% are purely elective."7 James T. McMahon, MD, of Los Angeles, CA, in detailing for the US Congress his experience with more than 2000 partial-birth abortion procedures stated that only 9% of those involved maternal health indications (of which the most common was depression).8 In fact, the insertion of instruments into the uterus is not without risks, since 1 out of 6,000 of these kinds of procedures results in the death of the mother (death from childbirth is 1 out of 13,000).9


Susan, if abortion is strictly between a woman and her doctor, where does the father come in, for instance, if a partial birth abortion is performed and goes bad, and the baby lives, how much will the father NOW have to pay in child support? How many abortions would even be planned if the fathers had a say? Last time I checked, it still takes 2 to Tango, although I always liked "Smoke on the Water" better. "

" A womans needs Kamfong are just like your needs: to be treated with respect, to have control over her body and medical decisions regarding her body, support when she is faced with difficult decisions, factual information not scare tactics, access to safe and complete medical care, health insurance, .... "

" Getting your information from "Faux News" again Medic. I prefer to trust the information from Guttamacher. "

" And Viability, just what does that describe Medic, care to elaborate in detail what a severely impaired child will face during its lifetime and the expense for caring for such a person. You seem to overlook a large part of the details. Too unpleasant for you? "

" As I said earlier Medic when the man can carry the fetus in an artificial womb he can have an equal say, as long as the woman has the task, it is her body, her health, and her decision. AND it is not mine nor yours to judge whatever she decides to do, carry a child to term, or abort. "

" Nothing like a hot button topic to start the day.
To those who argue what is wrong with letting an unwanted baby be adopted I have a couple of questions to ask you.
How many children are currently available for adoption?
How many of those will actually BE adopted?
How many of those children have physical or mental disabilities?
How many of those children who will never be adopted are products of an unwanted pregnancy?
How many of those children will go out and create unwanted babies themselves?
Who pays for these children who will never be adopted? Depending on your political views there are those who think abortion is wrong, but cry about their taxes being used for things they don't want or agree with...such as sex education or welfare.
Folks, you can't have it both ways. It is not a perfect world. If you are pro-life, then you had better have a plan to feed, house, clothe, and educate these unwanted children so they can become the people you think they should be...because remember, You think abortion is wrong...but the death penalty and war are just okey-dokey.

Maybe it is about time to reconsider letting homosexual couples adopt some of these 'unwanted' children. At least they would be somebody else's problem, right? "

" Honest Discussion wrote on May 4, 2009 9:32 AM:
"Maybe it is about time to reconsider letting homosexual couples adopt some of these 'unwanted' children. At least they would be somebody else's problem, right? """"

over the weekend, i spent a day at a safehouse....a safe haven for immigrants on the ciudad-juarez/el paso border. interestingly, the attitudes of the "haves" here in the US is hate and anger, and the attitudes of the "have-not's" are forgiveness and respect. i spoke to immigrants who were escaping the femicide that's rampant, the kidnapping of children to harvest organs to market, the sale of children and women for sex slaves, the places that teach and show you how to murder...they come here to escape and yet they are the humble, forgiving and passionate.

support abortion rights, immigration, sexual equality and the legalization of drugs.....it's the right thing to do. "

" Susan, those needs you described are all things that are obtainable if you have a job,U get respect,U get health care,u can take back control of your body. I guess since all the females I know have jobs,their needs are quite different from yours.Their needs are a cell phone,hairdresser,car,$$,and of course me and my broke A$$.As far as my needs,they are very different than yours,my needs are all covered when I have a woman who has a job. "

" Kamfong you must live on a very different planet from this one. Holding a job is no guarantee that you will get health care, respect, support for self and the job you do, nor that you will get a "living" wage. Yes the females you know have needs different from mine, I don't need a cell phone, hair dresser,and certainly not you! "

" Susan, Ah shucks,Ive been looking real hard for a spiritual advisor like you,oh well I'm sure one will come along,and she'll probably have a job too. "

" Ah Kamfong why work when one can be supported in the manner they choose without working? "

" Susan Oh I don't know,I guess by one having a job gives self worth,plus it's better for you than laying on the couch eating bon bons,and rearranging the bible to fit ones needs.Do you just google bible verses or have you read the whole bible? Its a living bible you can read scripture one day and 2 days later read the same scripture and get a different meaning,unless of course that only happens on my planet. "

" shumphreys wrote on May 4, 2009 7:54 AM:

As I said earlier Medic when the man can carry the fetus in an artificial womb he can have an equal say.

Then why did I pay hundreds of dollars in child support for 18 years? If the man has no say, he shouldn't have to pay, right Susan? By your reasoning, the father should be able to force an abortion so he won't have to pay child support.

By the way Susan, before you start, I never missed one child support payment in all of those years and I usually sent more than the court orderd. I once wired (Western Union) $5 to my kids (at a cost of $20) so they could buy batteries for their Hot Wheels.



father bob wrote on May 4, 2009 11:57 AM:

support abortion rights, immigration, sexual equality and the legalization of drugs.....it's the right thing to do.


Father Bob

I assume you are joking, right? "

" Sorry Medic that is your twisted logic speaking again, it is a womans body and a womans decision whether a fetus should be carried to term or aborted. If men don't want to get stuck with child support, they could have/should have tried celibacy or a vasectomy. "

" People get "self worth" in many ways Kamfong, being employed outside the home is one way, but there are many others just as fulfilling. I have read the whole Bible, and yes I do Google questions on topics. I have also read the Upanishads, the Buddhist Sutras, the Tao teh Ching, the Analects of Confucius, Black Elk Speaks, Walden, Silent Spring, all of Joseph Campbells books, Karen Armstrongs books, the list goes on and on. Right now I am working on "Lost Scriptures, Books that Did Not Make it into the New Testament" by Bart Ehrman. When was the last time you read a book? "

" Susan I recieved my spirituality from the Big book of Alcoholics Anonymous,it is the only Bible I care to read,it doesn't have "THEES ,thou,or any judgemental crap in it.It also caters to atheist,agnostic,and spiritualy ill people,plus it allows anyone seeking a God to have one of their own understanding.I live by verses like keep it simple stupid,& one day at a time,planned parenthood,heterosexuality.May I suggest you read the first 68 pages of this wonderful book ,it may just enlighten another understanding of God 4 U.I'm not mocking you or making fun Of you I respect you for trying to carry a spiritual message,Good Luck. "

" Kamfong Alcoholics Anon has one problem, it calls folks to be dependent on a higher power, eventhough it doesn't specify what that higher power is. AND I mean this as opposed to calling on people to find the power within them which is one reason many who get involved with AA have to stay involved for life, they haven't found the strength within their self to take full control of their self. I am NOT promoting any particular spiritual message, ALL are good and ALL are bad, it depends on the person and they choose to incorporate the message into their life. "

" medic....no, i'm not joking. "

" Now Kamfong you didn't answer my question. How many books have you read recently. Perhaps YOU need to read a mind expanding, eye opening good book so that you too can learn how to take full control of your self. "

" Susan,I rarely read books because of my attention span,But I do like the ones with lots of pictures. "