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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Friday, May 1, 2009 10:13 PM CDT
LETTER: God's attitude shown in destroying two cities

CHARLES ALBIN, Neoga

Ask Susan Humphreys, why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

This is solid evidence showing God’s attitude toward homosexuality.

I learned how to read. The Supreme Court is sick.

CHARLES ALBIN

Neoga

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shumphreys wrote on May 2, 2009 4:20 PM:

" If Mr. Albin can read perhaps he should read Ezekial 16: starting at 46 but especially lines 49-50. He will find a list of reasons why Sodom was destroyed and neither homosexuality nor homosexual behavior are on the list! "

medic57 wrote on May 2, 2009 10:45 PM:

" And Ms. Huphries should read Genesis 19.

Genesis 19
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Ezekial 16.50

And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

There you go again Susan, you're only reading the parts of the bible that suit you. That's what happens when you try to understand the bible without praying for understanding first. "

jrhendren wrote on May 2, 2009 11:04 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 2, 2009 4:20 PM:
" If Mr. Albin can read perhaps he should read Ezekial 16: starting at 46 but especially lines 49-50. He will find a list of reasons why Sodom was destroyed and neither homosexuality nor homosexual behavior are on the list! "

"Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD." - Genesis 13:13

"Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodomboth young and oldsurrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing." Genesis 19:4-7
" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." - Ezekial 16:49-50

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.: - Jude 1:7

Nope their homosexual acts had nothing to do with it. I mean their is no way that the "detestable things" could have been homosexual acts. Even if the Scriptures say that homosexuality is detestable to God. That means nothing right. You just keep twisting and leaving out key verses. "

shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 7:42 AM:

" And what are those passages citing, gang rape, which is an act of subjugation carried out by heterosexual males, more often than not. They aren't citing relationships between consenting same sex adults. Learn to read both of you. "

Kamfong wrote on May 3, 2009 8:31 AM:

" Suzies Gospel Hour! Only thing missing is the choir. "

CrowWoman wrote on May 3, 2009 8:33 AM:

" Malachi 2:16: "For I hate divorce, says the Lord, the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with injustice, says the Lord of hosts...."

Divorce is also detestable in God's sight; why don't Christians discuss how God feels about divorce? Is it because Christians divorce and remarry as frequently as non-Christians do? "

shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 9:03 AM:

" One more thing Medic and Mr. Hendron, in order to understand the Bible you need to be like those CSI (Crime Scene Investigators) on TV. Except we will call you BSIs (Bible Scene Investigators). You have to search for clues, follow leads to unexpected places, do a little internet/historical research, compile as many pieces of the puzzle as you can find, then try to fit the pieces together without bias or prejudice (preconceived answers). Who would have thought that Ezekial would have told you what the sins of Sodom were? But the puzzle goes on. Next you will have to figure out what "things" are considered "abominations unto the Lord". I'll give you a clue, you might check out Proverbs. "

medic57 wrote on May 3, 2009 9:14 AM:

" Actually, we should be thanking Susan, becaus of her, the Bible is quoted regularly on this website, possibly giving some non-believers exposure to the word of God.

Thank you Susan for letting us use the Internet for a platform. "

dstew66 wrote on May 3, 2009 4:05 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 9:03 AM:
" Who would have thought that Ezekial would have told you what the sins of Sodom were? But the puzzle goes on. Next you will have to figure out what "things" are considered "abominations unto the Lord". I'll give you a clue, you might check out Proverbs. "

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: IT IS ABOMINATION.

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and COMMITTED ABOMINATION before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

That seems pretty clear to me. "

The Question wrote on May 3, 2009 4:29 PM:

" You're one great advertisement for religion, Albin. "

CrowWoman wrote on May 3, 2009 4:45 PM:

" dstew66 trotted out the oft-quoted Lev. 18:22 ("Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.")

I wonder why s/he doesn't quote verses that mention other abominations. You know, like Proverbs 11:1, Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord. Or Proverbs 6:16-19, which tells us, These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Additional Biblical abominations include carved or molded images (Deut. 27:15); the sacrifice of the wicked (Proverbs 15:8); and a proud heart (Proverbs 16:5)among many others.

Could it be these other abominations aren't discussed very often because cheating, proud looks, lying tongues, and various 21st century versions of idolatry are found rather frequently among evangelical Christians? "

dstew66 wrote on May 3, 2009 5:18 PM:

" He didn't quote it because the subject in question was homosexuality. If we were to quote everything that God considers abomination we would be here for quite a while, but we could start with the dietary laws.

Others have quoted scripture proving that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality, among other sins.

I wonder what makes people think that America is immune from the righteous judgment of the Creator? The sins of this country get more and more everyday. Do we think God is just going to look the other way for ever?

I don't know why some of you keep pointing fingers at Christians. You are just like them. She twists scripture to fit into her belief system the same way the Church does. Noone seems to care what the Creator really wants from His Creation. We are too interested in what is in it for us? The Catholic Church even takes out the part of the Ten Commandments that say thou shalt not bow down to any graven image. Why do you suppose that is? "

shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 5:19 PM:

" Thankyou Medic for continuing to show where Christianity went BADLY WRONG. "

shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 5:29 PM:

" CrowWoman the fact that so many ignore certain parts of the "commandments" gives added meaning/understanding to why the phrase (and I paraphrase here) "don't worry about the dust mote in your neighbors eye, tend to the beam in your own eye." is in the Bible! "

shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 5:33 PM:

" You are right about one thing Dstew66, far TOO many are only concerned about their self, and what is in it for them. AND that is one of the "things" Jesus was against and admonished against many times, if you believe anything the Bible says that he said! "

HisChild wrote on May 3, 2009 6:51 PM:

" Thank you Charles Albin!
God bless you!
God bless all who read this,
Thank You Lord! Amen! "

medic57 wrote on May 3, 2009 9:06 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 5:33 PM:

You are right about one thing Dstew66, far TOO many are only concerned about their self, and what is in it for them.

You are partially right about that Susan, I'm and Air-Conditioner type man, I really don't want to spend the afterlife where the furnace is turned up. "

dstew66 wrote on May 3, 2009 9:31 PM:

" CrowWoman wrote on May 3, 2009 4:45 PM:

" dstew66 trotted out the oft-quoted Lev. 18:22 ("Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.")

If this verse is so oft-quoted as you say, then why are we even having this discussion in the first place. The matter should be settled. "

theproletariat87 wrote on May 3, 2009 9:44 PM:

" Amen SHumpherys, As I pointed out in the earlier post for the other letter that you sent, how do Christians see people converting to their religion when the bible is thraught with violence, chavunism and biggotry. Like for instance (Medic) do you think all women should wear dresses? It (bible) says that they must wear dresses and please their husbands. Is that morally right? Does your girlfriend/wife have to wear a dress? Because to me women aren't made for popping out babies and as a servant to her husband. Btw even if it says that in genisis the bible was written by man and due to flaws. "

medic57 wrote on May 4, 2009 1:04 AM:

" theproletariat87

Same ole, same ole. "

shumphreys wrote on May 4, 2009 7:44 AM:

" Because it is hypocritical to pick one line from all of Leviticus and declare that this is the greatest abomonation and justifies the persecution of those that do this one thing. Especially since hypocrites aren't likely to make it into heaven if you read the "rest of the story"! If that is what concerns you as Medic is obviously concerned, he may be in for a rude surprise! Either he gets rejected because of what he has and hasn't done to his fellow man ( Matthew 25) or because he wasn't one of the pre-selected ones to begin with (forgot which passage that is from and I am too lazy to look it up this am). "

Becky wrote on May 4, 2009 8:01 AM:

" And so this all loving God who loves us dearly turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for simply glancing back at the total destruction of her home and everything surrounding it? Hmmmmmmmm....so explain to me again why I would want anything to do with this God of wrath, jealousy, who tests his followers with boils and child murder? Just like you can't force democracy on people with the barrel of a gun, you can't force people into worship (anymore anyway) with threats of destruction and firey lakes of torment. I mean really, why would I love anyone who threatens me with never ending torture? "

Becky wrote on May 4, 2009 9:21 AM:

" medic57 wrote on May 4, 2009 1:04 AM:

" theproletariat87

Same ole, same ole. "

That exactly right medic. That's why so many people are actually reading the Bible and thinking for themselves that it's just a bunch of myths and fairytales and finding the true Creator within. The same ole, same ole is, well, ole. "

Jim1969 wrote on May 4, 2009 10:19 AM:

" Some can read the passage posted by medic and come away from it saying God hates homosexuality which is why He destroyed the cities.

Others can read the same passages and come away with God destroyed the cities because those living there were too caught up in their own needs, wants and desires to think about anyone but themselves and in the pursuit of fullfillment of those desires they were ready and willing to force others to do what they wanted.

Many of the lessons taught in the Bible are not direct, like the 10 commandments. The lessons are taught through stories and the lessons contained in those stories are not in the fine details. They are found in the general summary of the story. "

Rohn Gordon wrote on May 4, 2009 10:46 AM:

" My wife serves and services me. "

father bob wrote on May 4, 2009 11:38 AM:

" i read in the sunday section of the ABQ journal, the rocky mountain synod of the evangelical lutheran chuch in america has passed the resolution allowing pastors in a same sex monogamous relationship to serve as ordained pastors. their recommendation was passed along to the nationwide church.

good to see there are some reasonable christians in this world. "

dstew66 wrote on May 4, 2009 11:46 AM:

" Becky wrote on May 4, 2009 8:01 AM:

" And so this all loving God who loves us dearly turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for simply glancing back at the total destruction of her home and everything surrounding it? Hmmmmmmmm....so explain to me again why I would want anything to do with this God of wrath, jealousy, who tests his followers with boils and child murder? Just like you can't force democracy on people with the barrel of a gun, you can't force people into worship (anymore anyway) with threats of destruction and firey lakes of torment. I mean really, why would I love anyone who threatens me with never ending torture? "

That same God also promises blessings for obedience to his commandments and eternal life. Lot's wife was disobedient. She knew what was required and she knew what would happen. She made the choice to be disobedient and she chose the consequences.

If you choose to walk across the street against a red light and get hit by a car, then it is your fault and not the driver of the car. The law says the green light has the right of way and you must wait. The law is there for your benefit. If you choose to ignore that law, you know that a possible consequence is you get killed by an oncoming car.

The Creator doesn't force anyone to obey Him. He lets us choose, of our own free will, life or death. If you choose death, that is your business. I'd much rather see you choose life. There will be plenty of room in the kingdom for all.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

I might also suggest you follow up by reading Deuteronomy chapter 30.

I find it astounding that no one seems to read the parts in the bible about the blessings. They don't seem to teach that in the churches. They seem to be to intent on figuring out how grace sets us free from being obedient to what we are supposed to be doing. "

exbricklayer wrote on May 4, 2009 12:42 PM:

" And you people throw rocks at the Muslims for being fanatical, this is pathetic. "

father bob wrote on May 4, 2009 1:02 PM:

" hmmm....the very fact this letter has been processed and posted speaks volumes about the JG-TC.

it also speaks volumes of mr. albin. "

Raider65 wrote on May 4, 2009 1:52 PM:

" Would'est thou like some cheese with that whine? "

Becky wrote on May 4, 2009 1:56 PM:

" "That same God also promises blessings for obedience to his commandments and eternal life. Lot's wife was disobedient. She knew what was required and she knew what would happen."

So why exactly did God not want her to look? Exactly what "sin" is that? "

Becky wrote on May 4, 2009 1:58 PM:

" dst writes:"I'd much rather see you choose life. There will be plenty of room in the kingdom for all"

Well d, I already live in the kingdom. It's inside me, around me, it's already everywhere. I don't have to wait until I die, and niether do you. "

medic57 wrote on May 4, 2009 2:50 PM:

" Jim1969

Exactly which one of The Ten Commandments is not precise and clear?

So why exactly did God not want her to look? Exactly what "sin" is that?

She looked back with longing and missed her former life (she was from a very well to do family in Sodom) She wanted Sodom the way it was.

Her actual sin was, she did not obey God when he said not to look back. "

Becky wrote on May 4, 2009 3:58 PM:

" So medic, if your running for your life and giant explosions are going off behind you, you wouldn't look back? An understanding "father" might have done something for the disobedience but death by salt? Puhleeze! (Actually, I can't believe I'm actually retelling this ridiculous story over and over). So, even IF this story were true, why would I listen to someone who is this vengeful, hateful, and downright horrible? I wouldn't praise him out of love, I would ACT like it to escape his wrath but fear IS NOT love! "

shumphreys wrote on May 4, 2009 4:02 PM:

" Dstew66 you have set yourself up for major failure, as in not making it into heaven, if you dare disobey ANY of Gods commandments. How many have you disobeyed since you started typing on these threads? How many do you disobey daily. Lots wife looked back, seems pretty harmless doesn't it compared to say, cheating on taxes, exploiting workers, casting stones (verbal stones that is), lusting with your eyes, have you helped the poor today, did you turn away a stranger, were you short tempered with your parents or wife.....I doubt that anyone will make it considering how many things are considered abominations unto the Lord. "

shumphreys wrote on May 4, 2009 4:05 PM:

" Then Dstew66 there is the wonderful story of poor old Job, he did everything right and still was punished and the only explanation the priests and ministers can come up with is that God works in mysterious ways and it is not for us to question his motives. Being a "True Believer" is no guarantee. Your are da--ed if you do and if you don't! "

name_hidden_to_protect_the_innocent wrote on May 4, 2009 4:50 PM:

" Praise the Lord my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ!

lol @ Rohn Gordon wrote on May 4, 2009 10:46 AM:

" My wife serves and services me. "

I am not a servent to my husband, that's for sure...he is a servent unto me :) lol "

father bob wrote on May 4, 2009 5:28 PM:

" Rohn Gordon wrote on May 4, 2009 10:46 AM:
" My wife serves and services me. """"

i'm sure you must have to pay her...... "

Collatine wrote on May 4, 2009 6:10 PM:

" theproletariat87 - You wrote bible is thraught with violence, chavunism and biggotry. Im not sure what thraught means, but if you mean the bible is a historical record of violence, chauvinism and bigotry, then yes. History is full of it because we live in a sin-cursed world. Jesus Christ provided a worldview explaining that, and also He provides a better way to live than violence, chauvinism and bigotry: unconditional love of family, neighbors (even gay ones) and enemies, hope for a better future, and equality before God.

You also wrote that women must wear dresses and please their husbands. It does? Where? Where does God in the OT or Jesus in the NT tell women to wear dresses and please their husbands? Having grown up in a tradition that taught that, when I looked in the Bible to justify that belief, I discovered its just not there. Those are man-made beliefs used to oppress women; not biblical principles.

In fact, Jesus attitude towards women was revolutionary: he treated them with respect, like equals. That he first appeared to women after his resurrection was something of an embarrassment to the men in the early Church because in that society, women were held in very little esteem: they couldnt even own property or testify in court. Jesus treated women with respect, and ultimately women took leadership positions in the early Church.

And contrary to what some denominations teach, there is no dress code in the Bible. Nowhere does it say you have to wear skirts to your ankles and hair down your back. Jesus fulfilled the OT Law perfectly, so we who could not would not have to (and even in the OT, there isnt a dress code except for the priests).

So why would someone want to become a follower of Christ? Ask the millions of Muslim women who are converting across the globe: because Jesus sets people free from the things that bind them, including man-made dress codes, chauvinism, and bigotry (and man-made religions). "

Jim1969 wrote on May 4, 2009 6:20 PM:

" What I tried to convey was that while the 10 Commandments were spelled out very plainly, many of the other lessons the Bible teaches are not so evident.

IMHO many miss the real lessons because they choose to attempt to dissect every word or every sentence and then want to remove what has been written from everything else that was written with it. In other words they seem to go out of their way to take things out of context. "

shumphreys wrote on May 4, 2009 6:29 PM:

" You know Collatine I never could figure out why Jewish men had to cover their head with a cap and Catholic women had to cover theirs but not the men? TRADITION. There are lots of things that folks think are in there but aren't actually. I also have wondered if Christians have a new covenant with Jesus so that they are no longer bound by the Old Testament law why do some keep insisting that the Ten Commandments be placed in public schools and buildings and if they have been freed of the law why do they keep insisting that others abide by it even those who don't/never accept/ed it in the first place? "

medic57 wrote on May 4, 2009 7:01 PM:

" Funny Susan, I don't see anywhere in Job where it says God works in mysterious ways, however, it does say that God blessed Job with twice as much as he had before if you'll just read a tad farther. Susan must be a Scientologist , like L. Ron Hubbard, she only reads part of the verses. "

dstew66 wrote on May 4, 2009 9:34 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 4, 2009 4:02 PM:
" Dstew66 you have set yourself up for major failure, as in not making it into heaven, if you dare disobey ANY of Gods commandments. How many have you disobeyed since you started typing on these threads? How many do you disobey daily. Lots wife looked back, seems pretty harmless doesn't it compared to say, cheating on taxes, exploiting workers, casting stones (verbal stones that is), lusting with your eyes, have you helped the poor today, did you turn away a stranger, were you short tempered with your parents or wife.....I doubt that anyone will make it considering how many things are considered abominations unto the Lord. "

You make an awful lot of assumptions for someone who doesnt even know me. You assume first of all that I believe that we go to heaven. You assume secondly that I believe you wont be saved if you disobey the commandments. You assume thirdly that I believe that I dont sin.

I would think that a reasonable person might want to gather some facts before they draw conclusions. Then again, maybe I am assuming you are a reasonable person. "

jrhendren wrote on May 4, 2009 11:12 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 7:42 AM:
" And what are those passages citing, gang rape, which is an act of subjugation carried out by heterosexual males, more often than not. They aren't citing relationships between consenting same sex adults. Learn to read both of you. "

I'm sure I know of the Scriptures your are twisting here, but please enlighten us all knowing Bible Scholar. "

jrhendren wrote on May 4, 2009 11:15 PM:

" CrowWoman wrote on May 3, 2009 8:33 AM:
" Malachi 2:16: "For I hate divorce, says the Lord, the God of Israel, and covering one's garment with injustice, says the Lord of hosts...."

Divorce is also detestable in God's sight; why don't Christians discuss how God feels about divorce? Is it because Christians divorce and remarry as frequently as non-Christians do? "

You are correct God hates divorce also, he hates all sin. Not the person has some people believe, (she knows who she is). The thing is just like homosexual acts, divorce is not the unforgivable sin. Also the Bible speaks of when divorce is alright, like in the case of adultery. It never says homosexual acts are alright, no matter how much it is twisted. "

jrhendren wrote on May 4, 2009 11:35 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 9:03 AM:
" One more thing Medic and Mr. Hendron, in order to understand the Bible you need to be like those CSI (Crime Scene Investigators) on TV. Except we will call you BSIs (Bible Scene Investigators). You have to search for clues, follow leads to unexpected places, do a little internet/historical research, compile as many pieces of the puzzle as you can find, then try to fit the pieces together without bias or prejudice (preconceived answers).

As you do. Once again would you like to be the pot or kettle. Using the internet for research is very dangerous, especially when you do not look at who is posting their finds. If you look long enough you can find someone to agree with you on any subject, or you can just make up someone to agree with you. Trying truly speaking to God, for direction and truth and it will be given to you.

Who would have thought that Ezekial would have told you what the sins of Sodom were? But the puzzle goes on. Next you will have to figure out what "things" are considered "abominations unto the Lord". I'll give you a clue, you might check out Proverbs. "

You might also read the Old Testament then cross reference it with the New Testament. Oh wow, there's a thought. Actually taking your own advise and doing some research. Not just taking the verses you like, but the entire Scriptures. Lets look at a little cross referencing:
"There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes,a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers." - Proverbs 6:16-19
Take note of the phrase, "a heart that devises wicked schemes", as we cross reference it with Matthew 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."
Wait a "heart that devises wicked schemes" and "out of the heart comes evil thoughts". Sure sound a lot alike. Then again that does not go along with what you want the Scriptures to say, so we can throw that one out right? "

jrhendren wrote on May 4, 2009 11:46 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 5:19 PM:
" Thankyou Medic for continuing to show where Christianity went BADLY WRONG. "

Yes Medic thank you for showing Christianity went "Badly Wrong" by not agreeing with Ms/Mrs Humphrey's outlandish retranslations of the Bible. On second thought Medic keep up the good fight.

shumphreys wrote on May 3, 2009 5:29 PM:
" CrowWoman the fact that so many ignore certain parts of the "commandments" gives added meaning/understanding to why the phrase (and I paraphrase here) "don't worry about the dust mote in your neighbors eye, tend to the beam in your own eye." is in the Bible! "

By the way nice paraphrase from Matthew 7:3-5, even though it was not speaking of the commandments but judging others as you do then say we do. Once again Pot of Kettle? The truth is Christians do judge, other Christians as we are to do Scripturaly. Not their salvation, but help hold them accountable for their sin. You on the other hand tend to judge the people, not the sin. You will say someone is wrong and a fool for being a Christian. We say someone is hurting and in pain because they do not know Christ. Let's see, "your a fool" vs. "Let me help you". Yep your right, your way is better. In fairy tale land. "

jrhendren wrote on May 4, 2009 11:49 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 4, 2009 6:29 PM:
" You know Collatine I never could figure out why Jewish men had to cover their head with a cap and Catholic women had to cover theirs but not the men? TRADITION. There are lots of things that folks think are in there but aren't actually. I also have wondered if Christians have a new covenant with Jesus so that they are no longer bound by the Old Testament law why do some keep insisting that the Ten Commandments be placed in public schools and buildings and if they have been freed of the law why do they keep insisting that others abide by it even those who don't/never accept/ed it in the first place? "

Because if you would bother to read the entire Scriptures you would see that all but one of the Ten Commandments were "reinstated" so to speak by Christ, except one. I'll let you figure out which one. Oh wait that would mean cross referencing again. Never mind. "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 7:09 AM:

" Honestly Medic you think you could be "payed off" for being Gods pawn? That story and subsequent ending is pretty sick. How could another child or ten compensate for the loss of the others? I also didn't say that the statement "God works in mysterious ways" appears in Job. You also get lots of exercise jumping to conclusions. "

M wrote on May 5, 2009 7:11 AM:

" Becky stated, "why would I listen to someone who is this vengeful, hateful and downright horrible? I wouldn't praise him out of love, I would ACT like it to escape His wrath but fear is not love"

THE BIBLE SAYS:
Prov 1.7:"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge but fools despise wisdom & instruction".

Prov 14.6: "A scourner seeketh wisdom and findeth it not but knowledge is easy to him that understandeth".

Prov 14.27: "The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life to depart from the snares of death."

1 Cor 2.14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned."

Prov 15.32: "He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding." 33: "The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom and before honour is humility."

God is not horrible, Becky. If you truly want to understand then I sincerely suggest to you that you humble yourself enough to ask God for guidance. To humble yourself before the Lord is not disgraceful at all...IMHO it is to help you come before Him with sincerity and a desire for understanding that can not come to you otherwise. "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 7:12 AM:

" Jim1969 you are right taking a part of a book, a passage out of context is a problem. Many however also forget that the "context" also includes the history of the time in which the passages were written and the meaning of language at the time the passages were written. Many words we use today carry quite different meanings than they did when the Bible was first translated into English. And that doesn't take into account the bias of the translators. "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 7:16 AM:

" Dstew66 I didn't ASSUME anything, I only read what you wrote and made a direct comment. You did say didn't you "That same God also promises blessings for obedience." And as I said you have set yourself up for major failure with that assumption! "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 7:18 AM:

" Oh and Dstew66 I did make one assumption I assume that you are human and just like the rest of us all to fallible. "

Becky wrote on May 5, 2009 7:40 AM:

" For those of you who asks about Job, here's what happened....from a taunt from Satan, God stood back and let Job be tortured, humiliated, lose everything because Satan dared him.

Job 1:7 And YHWH said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the YHWH and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 1:8 Then YHWH said to Satan, "Have you set your heart to My servant Job, that none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" Job 1:9 So Satan answered YHWH and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? Job 1:10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face."

How would you react if someone dared you about one of your children? Would you let someone torture your child for 10 years to prove loyalty? "

Collatine wrote on May 5, 2009 8:47 AM:

" Susan, Yeah, it's interesting and sometimes tragic the traditions people have come up with to introduce religion where God only wants a relationship.

I have no idea why the big deal about the Ten Commandments. (Christians are responsible for raising their children and teaching them how to think, not delegate that to government schools; and I don't know why Christians or anyone for that matter would want teachers who may not share the same ethical foundation teaching their children ethics. Note: I'm not saying Christians have to home or private school. I'm saying some things can't being delegated to gov't schools). Besides, according to Jesus, no one can live up to the Ten Commandments. (Defaming someone is equal to murder in God's eyes; lusting the same as adultery, I'm actually stealing time from my employer right now, etc).

Anyway, Jesus said the bottom line of the commandments is this: Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor like yourself. To me, that is the only civics lesson anyone needs. "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 9:13 AM:

" M "understanding" can come to a person in many ways. For some, Christianity is the way, for others it isn't. There are many paths through the woods and each of us has to seek and follow the path that is right for us. From what I have learned of Becky from her postings, she is a thoughtful person, that seeks knowledge and understanding of the world and how it works. Enlightenment can come to ALL who seek it, the religious or non-religious. "

dstew66 wrote on May 5, 2009 9:14 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 7:18 AM:

" Oh and Dstew66 I did make one assumption I assume that you are human and just like the rest of us all to fallible. "

Did you just admit to being fallible? They say that admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. "

~OpenUnated~ wrote on May 5, 2009 10:29 AM:

" Did anyone read what happens after Lot's wife turned to salt? His daughters got him drunk on wine and had sex with him so they could get pregnant. They felt sorry for him since his wife died and there was no one to carry on the family line. Uh.... Wow - that seems way more WRONG than just about anything...... "

hammbone wrote on May 5, 2009 10:36 AM:

" "solid evidence" Wheres the smoking gun at ? Solid evidence, Just because it is written doesn't mean it's true. People wright all kind of lies down in books and call them fact.Your forgetting this is a book based on the Roman's. There empire was failing and needed to jump on the band wagon and pray to an imaginary god. Solid Evidence,, what a joke! Need Guidance?Get a compass,map,GPS unit. The sky is falling,the sky is falling, Your Good Book ,Is the Greatest STORY ever told, "

dstew66 wrote on May 5, 2009 12:57 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 4, 2009 11:49 PM:
" Because if you would bother to read the entire Scriptures you would see that all but one of the Ten Commandments were "reinstated" so to speak by Christ, except one. I'll let you figure out which one. Oh wait that would mean cross referencing again. Never mind. "

Reinstated? Then I suppose, since you have read the entire Scriptures, that you can point out in those Scriptures by who and when the Ten Commandments were uninstated, so to speak?

The answer is not Jesus, because He said:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have not passed. The Ten Commandments are part of the law. So unless you want to call Jesus a liar, there are still Ten Commandments, and you violate the law of God if you choose to ignore the one that doesnt fit into your lifestyle. "

woodstock wrote on May 5, 2009 1:47 PM:

" Belief is neither evidence nor fact. Those who believe in the Bible have faith in the King James translation of the Word. Evidence does not require faith to be fact. It stands on it own. Your argument is inconclusive. God is neither angry nor destructive; God is. "

Hammbone wrote on May 5, 2009 3:31 PM:

" I'm going to tell you something else. During my third back opperation I died on the opperating table. For over 2 min I was dead, I didnt see a man with a pitch fork, I didnt see St. Peter. I didnt see any devine bright light. I was brought back to life by the good folks at the Hospital. Dont put too much faith in the Good Book that was written by the Roman Empire. Yes I faced death and came back. I dont know why, but one thing I'm shure. There isnt any here after. Ive been there and done that! So until you have an experience like mine or have talked to several folks that have had a death experience like i have, they all say the same thing.NOTHING HAPPENS!!!!!!! "

~OpenUnated~ wrote on May 5, 2009 4:08 PM:

" Hammbone - No why did you have to go and tell us that? What do we have to look forward to? uh...nothing? Sorry, but I was with my dying grandmother, who saw Heaven. My sister saw my mom and her son who died before her, she said they were there to 'take her home'. What? She just making that up to make us feel better? Considering that she hadn't been able to speak and that's the ONLY thing she said? I'm sure she thought "what can I say that will make everyone feel better?" Sorry you didn't have the same experience. It made being with her when she passed a blessing because we knew she was going "Home". "

name_hidden_to_protect_the_innocent wrote on May 5, 2009 4:15 PM:

" Hammbone wrote on May 5, 2009 3:31 PM:
So until you have an experience like mine or have talked to several folks that have had a death experience like i have, they all say the same thing.NOTHING HAPPENS!!!!!!! "

Sorry for your luck Hammbone! I know of three other people that have had better experiences other than what you speak of.

Also, ever watched anyone die? Ever witnessed them talking to someone on the "other side"? I have twice so don't go preaching your hammy nonsense.

Do you all realize what is going on here? Just want Susan wants, to be able to argue and try and prove she is right and everyone else is wrong. The best thing that anyone can ever do when she speaks is not respond. She is thriving off this conflict of interest. Probably makes her feel better or something.

By the way, I've also experienced an exorcism first hand so why don't we all dispute that?? "

Collatine wrote on May 5, 2009 4:29 PM:

" Hammbone - of course you didn't see anything after dieing. You were dead, and would remain dead until the final resurrection. Of course, this conflicts with other worldviews - some say (like you) there is only annihilation, others reincarnation. The Judea-Christian worldview says resurrection in the end of time, but until then, people are dead - "resting in peace" (one hopes). "

Collatine wrote on May 5, 2009 4:33 PM:

" dstew - "you violate the law of God..." Of course. We all do; none of us can measure up to God's standard of holiness. That's why Jesus came: he did measure up, and then paid the penalty for us... Doesn't make sense, but that's why we sing --"Amazing love, how could it be, that you my King would die for me... Amazing love, I know it's true, it's my joy to honor you." "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 4:43 PM:

" Heavens Dstew66 I started my "recovery" when I was 20 and first read Siddhartha and realized that Christianity didn't have all the answers. In fact I realized most Christians weren't even asking the right questions, something you have yet (it seems) to realize. "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 4:50 PM:

" Sorry Name Hidden what I "want" is free and open discussion, which we are beginning to get and it is WONDERFUL. As for those with experiences with dying folks, the mind is a marvelous mechanism and plays tricks on us all the time, even as folks are dying. I have no doubt that in their MINDS EYE those folks saw what they saw, just as the children of Lourdes saw what they saw. Does that mean that those things were real, physical things. NO it doesn't. When the Bible speaks of something not being of this earth there is more than one meaning to the phrase. "

shumphreys wrote on May 5, 2009 4:55 PM:

" Collatine I agree with your "civics lesson"! The concept of God means different things to different folks everything from a fatherly being to the life force within all of us. Mr New Standard translation uses the the words Love the Lord, Your God. Not my God, not the God but YOUR God so that fits just about everyone. AND the other is just another version of the Golden rule first put forth by Confucius, "Do not do to others what you would not want done to your self". Good words to live by. "

Kamfong wrote on May 5, 2009 5:16 PM:

" I like the Bush Admin.Policy DO UNTO OTHERS THEN RUN. "

CrowWoman wrote on May 5, 2009 6:05 PM:

" For 60 percent of those who had been through a Near Death Experience, the rapid-eye movement (REM) state of sleep intrudes into their regular consciousness while awake, the study found. Both before and after their traumatic event, these people had experiences that include waking up and not being able to move, sudden muscle weakness in their legs, and hearing sounds that no one else hears upon waking or falling asleep."

Hammbone, your normal sleep pattern may have made a NDE unlikely for you. I'm not saying that what happens during the Near Death experience is unreal, I'm just saying many people are unlikely to remember it. I personally believe in supernatural occurrences. "

dstew66 wrote on May 5, 2009 8:49 PM:

" Collatine wrote on May 5, 2009 4:33 PM:

" dstew - "you violate the law of God..." Of course. We all do; none of us can measure up to God's standard of holiness.

Oh?

Abraham did.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Noah did.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Hum, and I thought grace started in the "New Testament." "

Hammbone wrote on May 5, 2009 8:55 PM:

" Yes I have watched 3 family members die with there hand in mine.
"Living in the sky there is a special man that watches everything you do of every minute of every day.And this invisible man has 10 things tht he doesnt want you to do.And if you do any of these 10 things he has a special place will that is filled with fire and smoke and burning torture and anguish,where he will send you to live and suffer to burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever till the end of time,,BUT HE LOVES YOU " George Carlin "

The Question wrote on May 5, 2009 9:14 PM:

" A friend of mine pointed out that the average 8-year-old today knows more about the world than the most educated person on the planet at the time the Bible was written, but Republican fundamentalists take pride in attempting to be just as ignorant as 2,500-year-old sheep herders. "

Collatine wrote on May 5, 2009 9:37 PM:

" dstew - you thought wrong. Grace is part of God's character, and it's throughout scripture, triggered by faith. But note: the two examples you cite came before the Ten Commandments were given.

Paul explains better what I'm talking about in and around Romans 4. "

Collatine wrote on May 5, 2009 9:52 PM:

" The Question - interesting statement. How does your friend explain how the ancients built pyramids in different civilizations across the globe -many of which we are unable to replicate with all of our "modern" knowledge? How did the dunces of thousands of years ago map out the entire globe with accuracy that was lost from the Greeks until the 19th Century or designed and built analog computers before the time of Christ? There are interesting scriptures in the Bible that say you can't count the stars... yet, clearly, you can. There are about 6000 that are visible to the naked eye, ...but somehow 3000 years ago, astronomers and prophets wrote about an endless universe with countless stars and how earth orbits the sun. What morons!

Have you not studied ancient history? In fact, it appears in many way, the ancients had far more understanding of the ways of the world than we do - or do you not believe our "technologically advanced" society isn't sowing the seeds of global destruction (i.e., climate change)? (Or maybe not - check out the book "Collapse: How societies choose to succeed or fail".)

In other words, don't be so condescending and try reading a little of what the ancients passed down through the millennia. What managed to survive might be worth it. For instance, the works of Homer demonstrate more understanding of human nature centuries before Christ than you have ever demonstrated on these blogs. "

medic57 wrote on May 5, 2009 9:56 PM:

" They walked in tandem, each of the ninety two students filing into the already crowded auditorium. With their rich maroon gowns flowing... and the traditional caps, they looked almost as grown up as they felt.

Dads swallowed hard behind broad smiles, and Moms freely brushed away tears.

This class would NOT pray during the commencements----not by choice, but because of a recent court ruling prohibiting it.

The principal and several students were careful to stay within the guidelines allowed by the ruling. They gave inspirational and challenging speeches, but no one mentioned divine guidance and no one asked for blessings on the graduates or their families.

The speeches were nice, but they were routine.....until the final speech received a standing ovation.

A solitary student walked proudly to the microphone. He stood still and silent for just a moment, and then, it happened.

All 92 students, every single one of them, suddenly SNEEZED!!!!

The student on stage.. simply looked at the audience and said,

'GOD BLESS YOU, each and every one of you!' And he walked off stage...

The audience exploded into applause. This graduating class had found a unique way to invoke God's blessing on their future with or without the courts approval.

This is a true story; it happened at the University of Maryland. "

HisChild wrote on May 5, 2009 10:29 PM:

" :-) BRAVO MEDIC57! :-)
Thank you for sharing this most excellent piece of work!
:-) God Bless Us!
Each and every one of us! :-)
Thank You Lord! "

dstew66 wrote on May 5, 2009 10:40 PM:

" Collatine wrote on May 5, 2009 9:37 PM:

" dstew - you thought wrong. Grace is part of God's character, and it's throughout scripture, triggered by faith. But note: the two examples you cite came before the Ten Commandments were given.

So did the murder of Abel. Does that make Cain guiltless since he killed before God said "Thou shalt not kill." "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 12:24 AM:

" dstew66 wrote on May 5, 2009 12:57 PM:
" jrhendren wrote on May 4, 2009 11:49 PM:
" Because if you would bother to read the entire Scriptures you would see that all but one of the Ten Commandments were "reinstated" so to speak by Christ, except one. I'll let you figure out which one. Oh wait that would mean cross referencing again. Never mind. "

Reinstated? Then I suppose, since you have read the entire Scriptures, that you can point out in those Scriptures by who and when the Ten Commandments were uninstated, so to speak?

The answer is not Jesus, because He said:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have not passed. The Ten Commandments are part of the law. So unless you want to call Jesus a liar, there are still Ten Commandments, and you violate the law of God if you choose to ignore the one that doesnt fit into your lifestyle. "

You do know what was being spoken of by "fulfilled" I hope. Christ came to fulfill the Law. Which he did by his death and resurrection. Part of Christ's last words were, "It is Finished", or "Fulfilled." The Law had been fulfilled, the ultimate sacrifice had been given. If not then blood sacrifices would still be needed. Just unclean food is mentioned in the Law, God speaks to Peter about unclean and clean, as does Paul with Timothy. Christ reiterated all the Ten Commandments except keeping the Sabbath, I will do ahead and give you the answer. (Refer to Matthew 12) Now we are no longer under the Law, or Old Covenant, ever since the day of Pentecost. That is when the New Covenant was put in place. The Spirit, or Counselor was sent as promised by Christ. Then we can also get into the fact that the Law was for the Jew, not the Gentile as most of us are. So we would not be under the Law, anyways, but again Jesus spoke, and even in some cases extended the meanings of the Law. (See Matthew 5:1-7:29). Then we have the Apostle Paul, the preacher to the Gentiles who said, "No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." - Romans 2:29. Then he later goes on to say, "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." - Romans 6:14 and "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." - Romans 7:5-6. There I have shown you, Scripturally, that the Law has been fulfilled, and that we are no longer under the Law. There are more passages if you would like them. "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 12:28 AM:

" The Question wrote on May 5, 2009 9:14 PM:
" A friend of mine pointed out that the average 8-year-old today knows more about the world than the most educated person on the planet at the time the Bible was written, but Republican fundamentalists take pride in attempting to be just as ignorant as 2,500-year-old sheep herders. "

Yep its only Republicans that believe in God. Get a new line already and quit trying to blame everything on politics. "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 12:30 AM:

" Kamfong wrote on May 5, 2009 5:16 PM:
" I like the Bush Admin.Policy DO UNTO OTHERS THEN RUN. "

That would be the French policy. We are still there in Iraq and Afghanistan. How is that running? Try making sense next time. "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 12:33 AM:

" Hammbone wrote on May 5, 2009 3:31 PM:
" I'm going to tell you something else. During my third back opperation I died on the opperating table. For over 2 min I was dead, I didnt see a man with a pitch fork, I didnt see St. Peter. I didnt see any devine bright light. I was brought back to life by the good folks at the Hospital. Dont put too much faith in the Good Book that was written by the Roman Empire. Yes I faced death and came back. I dont know why, but one thing I'm shure. There isnt any here after. Ive been there and done that! So until you have an experience like mine or have talked to several folks that have had a death experience like i have, they all say the same thing.NOTHING HAPPENS!!!!!!! "

So because you did not see a light, then all those who have are wrong. Oh and it was not the Roman Empire who wrote the Scriptures, after all they were not even around in the Old Testament times. Next time unfortunately, you'll know for sure if their is or is not. "

ZeroCool wrote on May 6, 2009 1:38 AM:

" Well, God did make him roam the Earth restlessly. "

The Question wrote on May 6, 2009 4:54 AM:

" Somehow 3000 years ago, astronomers and prophets wrote about an endless universe with countless stars and how earth orbits the sun.
----
Too bad somebody didn't tell your church about it, then, isn't it, Collatine? Might have spared them the trouble of prosecuting Galileo in 1633 for his horrible crime of showing that the Earth revolves around the sun. "

M wrote on May 6, 2009 5:19 AM:

" shumphreys:I wasn't saying that Becky is not a decent person. I was just trying to encourage her. I have seen that you quote scriptures and whatever but do you actually believe it? Because with all that enlightenment stuff I can't tell. New Age Religions are not biblical so if all that enlightenment talk is what I think it is why would you entertain it (if you believe the word of God)? "

CrowWoman wrote on May 6, 2009 6:26 AM:

" For the true story about the sneeze, click here:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/sneeze.asp "

shumphreys wrote on May 6, 2009 7:19 AM:

" M the Bible is a good book full of great wisdom for those willing to plumb its depths. But it isn't the only good book, the Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, Black Elk Speaks, Siddhartha..to name a few, they are all "the words of God", all holy, all full of great TRUTHS. It is also an important part of world history. One can't really understand where the world is today if they don't understand the worlds great religions. "

shumphreys wrote on May 6, 2009 7:22 AM:

" Mr. Hendren Hambone did make sense with his Bush policy, "do unto others than run". Quite clever actually. Bush is no longer in the White House, no longer responsible for cleaning up the mess he created, economic, fiscal, political, social..... "

dstew66 wrote on May 6, 2009 8:13 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 12:24 AM:
You do know what was being spoken of by "fulfilled" I hope. Christ came to fulfill the Law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

So if I understand your explanation, you claim that the word fulfill means to put an end to or it is no longer valid or binding.

If the word fulfill means to put an end to, then how do we interpret the word destroy, since you have already used the definition of destroy to define the word fulfill? "

Locke wrote on May 6, 2009 8:31 AM:

" God doesn't exist, so who cares about this imaginary entity's opinion of homosexuals? The fact is, some people are using religion as a justification to discriminate against American citizens -- the same people who glory in the supposition they are being persecuted by society, if only to ease their own guilt. This isn't the Middle Ages, this isn't a theocracy, so sit down and shut up. "

dstew66 wrote on May 6, 2009 8:43 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 12:24 AM:
Then we have the Apostle Paul, the preacher to the Gentiles who said,

So if I understand what you are telling me, you are telling me that Jesus of Nazareth, by His death and resurrection, did away with the laws of Moses, they were fulfilled. By His death and resurrection He changed the requirements of Gods people.

What else did the Apostle Paul say:

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Act 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Act 6:11 Then they SUBORNED MEN (This means they induced them to give false testimony), which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
Act 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Act 6:13 AND SET UP FALSE WITNESSES, which said, THIS MAN CEASETH NOT TO SPEAK BLASPHEMOUS WORDS AGAINST THIS HOLY PLACE, AND THE LAW:
Act 6:14 FOR WE HAVE HEARD HIM SAY, THAT THIS JESUS OF NAZARETH SHALL DESTROY THIS PLACE, AND SHALL CHANGE THE CUSTOMS WHICH MOSES DELIVERED TO US.

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.

So in this passage we have the Apostle Paul, the same Apostle Paul that you say teaches the law was fulfilled (done away with by your definition), admitting by his own hand that he was a party and consented to hiring false witnesses to testify against Stephen the very things that you are trying to tell me are the truth. Acts 6:13 clearly says these were false witnesses and Acts 6:14 clearly says the false testimony was that Jesus shall change the customs (laws) of Moses.

So who am I supposed to believe here? Do I believe what the Apostle Paul says, that it is false witness to say the customs of Moses are changed? Or do I believe the teachings of the church that teaches as the truth exactly what Paul clearly says is false witness?

Is Paul wrong here? "

Hammbone wrote on May 6, 2009 10:07 AM:

" All of you hypocrits and your hollier than now attitudes are just appalling.You speak as if you have a direct line to "JC" himself.and are blinded,You cant be told anything that isnt in your point of view.You cant see God with your "JC Glasses on".You Hollier and now folks make me want to VOMIT.Weak Minded Folks I guess have to have something to believe in or you would all go NUTZ. You want guidence, Get a map,compass,or a GPS unit. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on May 6, 2009 10:10 AM:

" Attention Susan! You are not God and you will never be God! You will however get to meet God and he will inform you of the truth that you could have known if you would have only opened up your heart to the Good News of Jesus Christ while you had the chance on earth.

As for all of these other religious folks they need to learn that it's all about the blood of Jesus! We don't have to go back to the old written code and try to live by it. We have been set free to be free and to follow after Christ's example in the New Testament. By the way, Susan that does mean preaching against sin. The error many Christians make is that they want to label sin when it was actual the sin condition that we were set free from! The old is passed away and behold all things have become new!

Salvation is a miracle of transforming lives that were once controlled by the sinful nature. Now we walk in the Spirit and are led by God. No that does not mean that we don't sin it means that we have been delivered from the original sin and walk in newness of life! "

shumphreys wrote on May 6, 2009 10:44 AM:

" Heavens DeepThoughts are you sure, absolutely positive that I am NOT God? Just what do you think God or Jesus would look like in this day and age, if he/she didn't want to stand out like a sore thumb? AND just what do you think he/she would be telling the folks of this earth to do? Perhaps stop the quibbling over the "law" which is manmade, treat ALL others with respect whatever their religious belief, live a goodly life and try to be a goodly person, that ALL are equal unto MY eyes. "

Kamfong wrote on May 6, 2009 10:55 AM:

" jr hendren you're not in iraq an neither is bush or any of his thugs,as far as I'm concerned HIM & his DADDY ripped people off knowing it would start a war.Try going to, Oh say mexico, mess with those people's lively hood and see what happens,Oh I forgot it's already happening. "

STINKY wrote on May 6, 2009 12:40 PM:

" Charlie, I'm sure that you know how to read, but I question your comprehension and critical thinking skills. Your argument might be good if "god" actually existed. "

STINKY wrote on May 6, 2009 12:41 PM:

" Amen, Hammbone. "

Harry Potter wrote on May 6, 2009 7:01 PM:

" Thanks CrowWoman, don't you just love snopes? It seems that a lot of folks pass on exaggerated or distorted Internet stories in their posts on here. A lot of the malicious lies that were told about Obama by the right wing kooks during the campaign were disproved by places like factcheck.com and snopes. I also remember that when this happened the kooks ranted about those sites not being legitimate because, according to them, they were run by left wing radicals. "

ItsJustDave wrote on May 6, 2009 10:38 PM:

" Chuck:
God also let his only son be tortured and killed.
A real sweetheart, huh?
Nuns are raped.
Innocent children die of starvation.
Dude gets credit, he also gets blame.
He doesn't only wipe out homos, he wipes out the righteous.
Get it right or shut up. "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:22 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 6, 2009 7:22 AM:
" Mr. Hendren Hambone did make sense with his Bush policy, "do unto others than run". Quite clever actually. Bush is no longer in the White House, no longer responsible for cleaning up the mess he created, economic, fiscal, political, social..... "

Do then I guess Clinton ran regarding the initial problems with Al Qaida when his term was over too. Not sure how you can no longer be president because you have served 8 years is running. Please explain, you must leave as running away. "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:29 PM:

" dstew66 wrote on May 6, 2009 8:13 AM:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

So if I understand your explanation, you claim that the word fulfill means to put an end to or it is no longer valid or binding.

If the word fulfill means to put an end to, then how do we interpret the word destroy, since you have already used the definition of destroy to define the word fulfill? "

Fulfilled:
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.)
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time
5. to develop the full potential of

Wait what is that in definition 4, "to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time". That sure sounds like what I said. There you go the definition as I used it from the Dictionary. I do hope that helps you understand how Christ came and "fulfilled" the Law. "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:39 PM:

" So in this passage we have the Apostle Paul, the same Apostle Paul that you say teaches the law was fulfilled (done away with by your definition), admitting by his own hand that he was a party and consented to hiring false witnesses to testify against Stephen the very things that you are trying to tell me are the truth. Acts 6:13 clearly says these were false witnesses and Acts 6:14 clearly says the false testimony was that Jesus shall change the customs (laws) of Moses.

So who am I supposed to believe here? Do I believe what the Apostle Paul says, that it is false witness to say the customs of Moses are changed? Or do I believe the teachings of the church that teaches as the truth exactly what Paul clearly says is false witness?

Is Paul wrong here? "

You do realize you are speaking of Saul in regarding Chapter 6, which is the name Paul went by before his conversion. He was a member of the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee. He was one who did not believe in Christ as the Messiah. Then on the road to Damascus he saw the light, literally. He became a follower of the Way, of Christ. It was at this time he wrote his epistles. He is also the one who tells us why we even have the Law. That it was given to us for the purpose of knowing what sin was. Without it we did not know what sin was. Context my friend, use all of what Paul said, especially after his conversion, and not before. That would be if you stopped reading after Peter denied Jesus, and said he never believed he was the Christ. We know, from reading on, later that Peter was one of the greatest preachers for Christ. I can not say it enough. Context Context Context!!! "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:40 PM:

" Hammbone wrote on May 6, 2009 10:07 AM:
" All of you hypocrits and your hollier than now attitudes are just appalling.You speak as if you have a direct line to "JC" himself.and are blinded,You cant be told anything that isnt in your point of view.You cant see God with your "JC Glasses on".You Hollier and now folks make me want to VOMIT.Weak Minded Folks I guess have to have something to believe in or you would all go NUTZ. You want guidence, Get a map,compass,or a GPS unit. "

We do have a direct line its called prayer, and the Word of God. "

jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:44 PM:

" Kamfong wrote on May 6, 2009 10:55 AM:
" jr hendren you're not in iraq an neither is bush or any of his thugs,as far as I'm concerned HIM & his DADDY ripped people off knowing it would start a war.Try going to, Oh say mexico, mess with those people's lively hood and see what happens,Oh I forgot it's already happening. "

No I am not, but have had friends there. They have seen the things that have gone on there. The hospitals being built, the clean running water, the sewer systems, the schools being built, and the women being treated as equals. You know the things the media does not report on because its not considered news worthy. As for Mexico, remember free trade, and the millions given to Mexico. Oh wait, those are good things lets forget about them right. "

shumphreys wrote on May 7, 2009 7:14 AM:

" Metaphorically speaking yes it is Mr. Hendren, jokingly speaking yes it is Mr. Hendren. BUT I forget you don't comprehend jokes or metaphors, or allegories you read the Bible literally and it seems extend that to all other areas. BUT Bush also ran in other senses of the concept, as in he abdicated his duties while still president, didn't act when he should have, acted without due thought or consideration when he should have thought long and hard about what he was doing. Yes in many ways Hammbones statement was right on target. "

Kamfong wrote on May 7, 2009 7:58 AM:

" jrhendren, I have no problem with the US genuinely helping another country.I do have a problem with the govt that represents where i live,going to another country and telling them we have a herion problem here and if they would eradicate the source it would stop the flow and strain of the drug into our country.This govt promised to pay them x amount of dollars to destroy their poppy fields and this govt bought up the shacks full of surplus laying around,Guess where it ended up? Our streets,cut,packaged sold and the price went up.Hmm how'd that happen? Then the govt failed to make good on the drug deal leaving that countries livelyhood destroyed.Back in the day I saw a person beat up in the MHS parking lot by a 2 bit nickel dime pot dealer because that person failed to pay for his pot.What do you think a whole country would do if someone did that to them?What do you think is supporting the towel heads? Grant money?I'm sure there are more issues also such as greed,oil,territory,power and control.News agencies can't report the truth,if they did this country would finally come unglued and possibly revolt,in wich i firmly believe is coming.Don't forget the ollie north contra scandal.Its also pretty bad that our brave troops are losing their lives by weapons partialy supplied by this country. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on May 7, 2009 9:36 AM:

" Susan, what God would say to you is to look into his word for the truth not so that you can find things that you agree with. You can't use the word of God to just agree with you, you have to agree with it! Remember he is God! "

shumphreys wrote on May 7, 2009 11:52 AM:

" Deep Thoughts the TRUTH is all around me, in the plants and the animals, in my body and how it works,in the scientific principles (geometric theorems, thermodynamic principles, gravity, measurements of the speed of light, evolution.....) in the writings of our great thinkers (the Tao teh Ching, Old Man and the Sea, even those delightful Harry Potter books). There are many many TRUTHS and they are NOT contained or found in ONE book. "

The Question wrote on May 7, 2009 2:15 PM:

" Religion has some meaning on the psychological and symbolic level. But on the literal and factual level, religion is simply BS. That is why religious fundamentalists everywhere are always wrong about everything. "

dstew66 wrote on May 7, 2009 4:32 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:29 PM:

" dstew66 wrote on May 6, 2009 8:13 AM:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

So if I understand your explanation, you claim that the word fulfill means to put an end to or it is no longer valid or binding.

If the word fulfill means to put an end to, then how do we interpret the word destroy, since you have already used the definition of destroy to define the word fulfill? "

Fulfilled:
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.)
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time
5. to develop the full potential of

Wait what is that in definition 4, "to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time". That sure sounds like what I said. There you go the definition as I used it from the Dictionary. I do hope that helps you understand how Christ came and "fulfilled" the Law. "

Destroy:
1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. to defeat completely.

Seems definition 2 for destroy means the same thing. So if we write the scripture by your definition it reads like this:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to end the law, or the prophets: I am not come to end, but to end.

That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

What if we look at some of the other definitions for fulfill.

Fulfilled:
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to end the law, or the prophets: I am not come to end, but to perform.

I am not come to end, but to obey.

I am not come to end, but to follow.

The Aramaic English New Testament translates the meaning correctly. It says establish.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets, I am not come to destroy, but to establish.

That is exactly what He did. He lived the law to the letter as an example to His followers.

Your definition makes no sense. "

dstew66 wrote on May 7, 2009 4:44 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:39 PM:
" You do realize you are speaking of Saul in regarding Chapter 6, which is the name Paul went by before his conversion. He was a member of the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee. He was one who did not believe in Christ as the Messiah. Then on the road to Damascus he saw the light, literally. He became a follower of the Way, of Christ. It was at this time he wrote his epistles. He is also the one who tells us why we even have the Law. That it was given to us for the purpose of knowing what sin was. Without it we did not know what sin was. Context my friend, use all of what Paul said, especially after his conversion, and not before. That would be if you stopped reading after Peter denied Jesus, and said he never believed he was the Christ. We know, from reading on, later that Peter was one of the greatest preachers for Christ. I can not say it enough. Context Context Context!!! "

Context? Context has nothing to do with whether or not this statement is a lie? Nothing! It doesnt matter whether it was Saul, The Apostle Paul, you or me, the statement is what is at issue, not who said it. If I tell a lie, and you come along and repeat it, the lie doesnt magically become the truth simply because a different person tells the lie. If the whole world believed a lie does it then become the truth? That is exactly what has happened.

Paul is telling us that these false witnesses were paid to bring false testimony against Stephen. The false testimony was that he was preaching that Jesus of Nazareth changed the customs of Moses. The false statement is that the law was changed. Paul is telling us that it was false testimony and that he was involved in the falsehood, as Saul. It is still a lie. I dont understand why it is so hard to comprehend that. "

Collatine wrote on May 7, 2009 5:36 PM:

" The Question - (from like, halfway up the thread) - you perfectly illustrate the problem with integrating man's fallible ideas with the God's inspired message. For centuries, the Church embraced Aristotle's view of the universe, and tried to fit it into the Bible.

Also, contrary to myth, the Galileo and the Copernicus-system were well-regarded by the church leaders. Galileo though was a victim of his own arrogance and papal politics. Kind of reminds me of you. ;-) JUST KIDDING "

The Question wrote on May 7, 2009 5:46 PM:

" Oh, the Catholic church welcomed Galileo's heliocentric views, did it, Collatine? "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on May 7, 2009 7:08 PM:

" Again Susan it comes down to you not having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! You cannot understand the Word of God without having a relationship with the author. There are a lot of great thinkers but there is only one God! Jesus himself said of himself that he is the Only Way to God! Thinking is great but all the thinking in the world will not transform a life and get you eternal life! "

jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:46 PM:

" Context? Context has nothing to do with whether or not this statement is a lie? Nothing! It doesnt matter whether it was Saul, The Apostle Paul, you or me, the statement is what is at issue, not who said it. If I tell a lie, and you come along and repeat it, the lie doesnt magically become the truth simply because a different person tells the lie. If the whole world believed a lie does it then become the truth? That is exactly what has happened.

Context does not matter. Well at least you have shown your true self. The fact that you will admit you take things out of context to make a point does surprises me.

Paul is telling us that these false witnesses were paid to bring false testimony against Stephen. The false testimony was that he was preaching that Jesus of Nazareth changed the customs of Moses. The false statement is that the law was changed. Paul is telling us that it was false testimony and that he was involved in the falsehood, as Saul. It is still a lie. I dont understand why it is so hard to comprehend that. "

The Law was changed by Christ. He fulfilled the Law or Old Covenant and we now have a New Covenant. It really is not that hard of concept. Saul believed in the Law, did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. After his conversion, he preached the Good News, of the New Covenant. Read Acts of the Apostles, Romans, and the other Pauline Epistles in context and you will see for yourself. Oh wait, forgot context does not matter, just make it say what you want. "

jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:48 PM:

" deep thoughts 45 wrote on May 7, 2009 7:08 PM:
" Again Susan it comes down to you not having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! You cannot understand the Word of God without having a relationship with the author. There are a lot of great thinkers but there is only one God! Jesus himself said of himself that he is the Only Way to God! Thinking is great but all the thinking in the world will not transform a life and get you eternal life! "

AMEN! I could not have said it any better. God Bless you my brother/sister. "

shumphreys wrote on May 8, 2009 6:20 AM:

" Interesting analysis Dstew66, a good way to look at the passage, that ADDS understanding, doesn't confuse like Mr. Hendrens.I'm going to save it for future reference. "

shumphreys wrote on May 8, 2009 6:25 AM:

" Deep Thoughts if you believe that God created the world than having a personal relationship with the world is having a personal relationship with the man himself, only better, because the world is real, the concept of God as being/man is not real, a fantasy of mans wishes, and fears. Your trouble is that you hide from reality. "

shumphreys wrote on May 8, 2009 6:27 AM:

" Oh and Deepthoughts, nothing will give you eternal life. We are all mere mortals. So make the most of this life that you have, however long or short, be good to your neighbor, handle your business dealings with honesty and integrity, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. "

dstew66 wrote on May 8, 2009 9:28 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:46 PM:

"The Law was changed by Christ. "

Mal 3:6 For I am Yahweh, I change not;

Now if Christ was indeed God in the flesh, this presents yet another problem for you to explain. The law of God was changed by God, yet God himself says He does not change.

So did God lie in this scripture? Or has Christianitys doctrine changed it themselves?

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie;

jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:46 PM:

"Oh wait, forgot context does not matter, just make it say what you want."

You are the one that makes it say what you want. "

Interested Observer wrote on May 8, 2009 9:31 AM:

" The Constitution, not the Bible, is the law of the land, Mr. Albin. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on May 8, 2009 10:09 AM:

" Susan, please stop quoting the bible that you do not believe in. You are the one who is denying the reality! I hope that it does not take the end of the road for you to find out that there's an encore coming up. In your case it will not be a pleasant one. In the world that we live in today, to deny that there is a God is pretty ignorant! The body itself proves that there is a God not to mention how this vast universe just set itself in the right places. And I am the one denying the reality of life. O please! "

dstew66 wrote on May 8, 2009 11:01 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 8, 2009 6:27 AM:
"Oh and Deepthoughts, nothing will give you eternal life. We are all mere mortals. So make the most of this life that you have, however long or short, be good to your neighbor, handle your business dealings with honesty and integrity, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. "

Susan, Im not sure how to take you. You say nothing will give you eternal life. That is true. Nothing we do of ourselves will. However, the Creator will give it to those who believe on and accept His son.

Now before you go on another narrative how you dont believe the Bible and you dont believe God exists, I want to know why you quote and obey parts of the Bible when you dont believe in its authorship?

I am referring to the part of you comment where you state: be good to your neighbor, handle your business dealings with honesty and integrity, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What you are quoting is portions of the Torah, or first 5 books of the Bible in which Yahweh reveals himself and gives His children instructions for righteous living. If you actually believe and live by what you wrote, then by your actions you believe in and are at least partially obedient to the Creator.

Now, before you say the Bible was written by men, yes, the words were put down by man, but the inspiration for those words comes from the Creator.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The biggest problem we have with the Bible is the fact that man is fallible, a statement I know you agree with. Man is fallible in that he tends to change things to suit what he wants as opposed to doing what the words actually say. In that sense, you are no different than the Harlot Church and her Christian daughters. They read the scriptures to fit their doctrine as opposed to basing their doctrines on what the scriptures say. That is what you do also, and just like them, you deny that you do it. It is interesting to watch you all go back and forth at each other over the fence, not even realizing that you are yelling at each other from the same side of the fence.

They call you a hypocrite. You call them a hypocrite. He said, she said. It would be amusing if it wasnt so serious. "

dstew66 wrote on May 8, 2009 11:02 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 8, 2009 6:20 AM:
"Interesting analysis Dstew66, a good way to look at the passage, that ADDS understanding, doesn't confuse like Mr. Hendrens. I'm going to save it for future reference."

What would be your reason for saving it for future reference? If you were a believer and wanted to use it for correction of someone in error, I would understand. If you want to use it to shove in someones face, then you need not bother. The scriptures are given to the believers, not the non believers. Non believers will not understand it anyway.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If you understood what I said, I commend you. If you understood it, it is because God allowed you to understand it. He allowed you to understand it for His purposes, not mine or yours. However, the knowledge that you now have needs to be used from your heart and not from your flesh. I can assure you of this. However you do use the knowledge, whether it be for good or evil, you will use it in accordance with how God has planned for you to use it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. "

dstew66 wrote on May 8, 2009 11:04 AM:

" Interested Observer wrote on May 8, 2009 9:31 AM:

" The Constitution, not the Bible, is the law of the land, Mr. Albin. "

ROFL

Well, interested observer, man doesn't pay any attention to that document anymore either! "

The Question wrote on May 8, 2009 11:15 AM:

" Susan, please stop quoting the bible that you do not believe in.
---
So you have to "believe in" books now to be allowed to quote them? What are they, fairy magic? "

shumphreys wrote on May 8, 2009 12:01 PM:

" Heavens Deepthoughts the Bible belongs to me as much as anyone else. I have as much right to read it and plumb its depths as you have to skim its surface. I have already awakened, that is what enlightenment is, no possibiity of a "rude awakening some time in the future for me." I have moved beyond the confines of Christianity to union with the Tao. It is quite satisfying and as folks like you keep demonstrating, my way leads to a compassionate understanding of and respect for the world and ALL people, yours doesn't. "

dstew66 wrote on May 8, 2009 3:11 PM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:46 PM:
"Context does not matter. Well at least you have shown your true self. The fact that you will admit you take things out of context to make a point does surprises me.

I admit no such thing and I did no such thing. The context that you were referring to is irrelevant to the issue. The issue was not whether it was the Apostle Paul or the Pharisee Saul saying it. The issue was what was said. As I said, a lie is a lie is a lie no matter what context it is told in or who tells it. "

jrhendren wrote on May 8, 2009 11:11 PM:

" dstew66 wrote on May 8, 2009 9:28 AM:
" jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:46 PM:

"The Law was changed by Christ. "

Mal 3:6 For I am Yahweh, I change not;

Now if Christ was indeed God in the flesh, this presents yet another problem for you to explain. The law of God was changed by God, yet God himself says He does not change.
So did God lie in this scripture? Or has Christianitys doctrine changed it themselves?

Again luckily context does not matter so you can make the Scriptures say as you wish. If you kept Malachi in context you would see God is speaking of the fact that he will always let those who do not follow him return to him. He also is promising that their will be judgment. As for God changing his mind. He told Abraham all he had to do is find 10 righteous people in Sodom and he would save them. When the people of Nineveh repented he spared the city. I am sorry but context does matter.

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie;

jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:46 PM:

"Oh wait, forgot context does not matter, just make it say what you want."

You are the one that makes it say what you want. "

I am stated what the Scriptures say. That would be you that takes them out of context thereby making them say as you wish. "

jrhendren wrote on May 8, 2009 11:22 PM:

" dstew66 wrote on May 8, 2009 3:11 PM:
" jrhendren wrote on May 7, 2009 11:46 PM:
"Context does not matter. Well at least you have shown your true self. The fact that you will admit you take things out of context to make a point does surprises me.

I admit no such thing and I did no such thing. The context that you were referring to is irrelevant to the issue. The issue was not whether it was the Apostle Paul or the Pharisee Saul saying it. The issue was what was said. As I said, a lie is a lie is a lie no matter what context it is told in or who tells it. "

It has everything to do with it. You are using where Saul/Paul was still a Pharisee, and not a convert to Christianity. He later admits that he was wrong in what he did. You asked, "So who am I supposed to believe here? Do I believe what the Apostle Paul says, that it is false witness to say the customs of Moses are changed? Or do I believe the teachings of the church that teaches as the truth exactly what Paul clearly says is false witness?" The answer which I gave you is Paul, not Saul. As Saul he believed that the customs of Moses had not changed, later as a convert he learned the truth. That Jesus fulfilled the Law. As Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17 This just happens to be the area you left out in your earlier post, again to take out of context. "

jrhendren wrote on May 9, 2009 12:09 AM:

" Kamfong wrote on May 7, 2009 7:58 AM:
" jrhendren, I have no problem with the US genuinely helping another country.I do have a problem with the govt that represents where i live,going to another country and telling them we have a herion problem here and if they would eradicate the source it would stop the flow and strain of the drug into our country.This govt promised to pay them x amount of dollars to destroy their poppy fields and this govt bought up the shacks full of surplus laying around,Guess where it ended up? Our streets,cut,packaged sold and the price went up.Hmm how'd that happen? Then the govt failed to make good on the drug deal leaving that countries livelyhood destroyed.Back in the day I saw a person beat up in the MHS parking lot by a 2 bit nickel dime pot dealer because that person failed to pay for his pot.What do you think a whole country would do if someone did that to them?What do you think is supporting the towel heads? Grant money?I'm sure there are more issues also such as greed,oil,territory,power and control.News agencies can't report the truth,if they did this country would finally come unglued and possibly revolt,in wich i firmly believe is coming.Don't forget the ollie north contra scandal.Its also pretty bad that our brave troops are losing their lives by weapons partialy supplied by this country. "

Someone is full of hate and "the government is out to get us" syndrome.
Is your favorite movie "Conspiracy Theory" with Mel Gibson? Our government stole the drugs to sell them themselves, is that what you are saying? Yep, saw one of out Senators out yesterday, hustling on the streets. Walked past him and he said, "What some heroin, oh and vote for me." Why did you call, I guess Middle-Eastern people, "towel heads"? Susan this is the person you are defending. You say you speak for the "little guy", then support someone who refers to people as "towel heads". Someone needs to turn off the radio from talk radio, and I mean from both the left and right. WOW! "

Harry Potter wrote on May 9, 2009 6:40 AM:

" Why did you call, I guess Middle-Eastern people, "towel heads"?

The answer to that one is pretty simple, it's called bigotry. It comes in all shapes and sizes, and as you know shows up on this site on a regular basis. I would imagine our friend has pet names for others such as Blacks, Jews, Asians, Hispanics and others.

In fairness to Susan, I doubt that she would condone the use of negative terms for anyone, let alone those from the Mideast. You may have a lot of disagreement with her on some issues, as many on here do, but hateful name calling doesn't seem to be her style. "

The Truth wrote on May 9, 2009 7:58 AM:

" Oh dear God, humphreys must be having a field day with this one - have fun people! "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on May 9, 2009 9:37 AM:

" The point that you still don't get Susan is that it is the very Words of God! All scripture was inspired by God! The books that you believe in were written from man's own feeble thoughts and idea's trying to prove themselves to be gods.

The point I want to make is that I don't have to wonder if there is a God or not as you say there isn't, I know that there is a God! I know that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is alive and well! I have served him for almost 40 years! He talks to me everyday and I talk to him just as I would my best friend! He has given me wonderful joy and peace that no one on this earth can give anyone! He has healed me many times when I was sick or other issues in my body came up that most people would have ran to a doctor for. Jesus Christ is real for sure and there is no doubt about it! "

dstew66 wrote on May 9, 2009 10:47 AM:

" jrhendren wrote on May 8, 2009 11:22 PM: That Jesus fulfilled the Law. As Jesus says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17 This just happens to be the area you left out in your earlier post, again to take out of context. "

Actually, I addressed Matthew 5:17 in an earlier post. You must have missed it:

dstew66 wrote on May 7, 2009 4:32 PM:
" jrhendren wrote on May 6, 2009 11:29 PM:

" dstew66 wrote on May 6, 2009 8:13 AM:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

So if I understand your explanation, you claim that the word fulfill means to put an end to or it is no longer valid or binding.

If the word fulfill means to put an end to, then how do we interpret the word destroy, since you have already used the definition of destroy to define the word fulfill? "

Fulfilled:
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.)
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time
5. to develop the full potential of

Wait what is that in definition 4, "to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time". That sure sounds like what I said. There you go the definition as I used it from the Dictionary. I do hope that helps you understand how Christ came and "fulfilled" the Law. "

Destroy:
1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. to defeat completely.

Seems definition 2 for destroy means the same thing. So if we write the scripture by your definition it reads like this:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to end the law, or the prophets: I am not come to end, but to end.

That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

What if we look at some of the other definitions for fulfill.

Fulfilled:
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to end the law, or the prophets: I am not come to end, but to perform.

I am not come to end, but to obey.

I am not come to end, but to follow.

The Aramaic English New Testament translates the meaning correctly. It says establish.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets, I am not come to destroy, but to establish.

That is exactly what He did. He lived the law to the letter as an example to His followers.

Your definition makes no sense. " "

shumphreys wrote on May 9, 2009 2:51 PM:

" The point that you don't get Deep Thoughts, is that they are ALL the words of God, they are ALL inspired by God, they are ALL TRUTHS. And by they I mean all the great works of literature all the sacred texts of the worlds great religions. None are more holy than any others. They are ALL full of great wisdom for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. You however don't appear to be one of those, your eyes are clamped shut and your ears are plugged. "

shumphreys wrote on May 9, 2009 2:54 PM:

" Now as to whether God and Jesus are "REAL" to you, whether they "help" you that is nice, I have no doubt that you are sincere. BUT your way, your beliefs are not for everyone, they are no more RIGHT, TRUTH for others than their beliefs are RIGHT or TRUE for you. There are many TRUTHS, many paths through the woods and each one of us has to follow the path that is right for us and respect others for the path that they choose to take, even if it is quite different from our own. There is "no one size fits all" when it comes to religion, which is a VERY, VERY good and great thing! "

The Question wrote on May 10, 2009 6:55 AM:

" I'll believe in your Jesus magic faith healing, Deepy, when you can show me a faith dentist. "Regrow teeth, in Jay-ee-sus-sus-sus name!!!" "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on May 11, 2009 9:30 AM:

" Well Question, if he can make the withered hand grow out and take leprosy away in a flash I don't think the teeth thing would be too much of a problem. He has healed many people from incurable cancers and yes these are documented medical miracles. The problem with you doubters is that you wouldn't even believe it if it happened to you! Jesus is the great physician and there is so much power in that name that you make light of that it could heal any disease. But like everything with God he requires that we have Faith! Don't forget also that He has exalted His Word above His Name! "

shumphreys wrote on May 12, 2009 4:11 PM:

" "If" says it all Deep Thoughts. If God can do this or do that and if he can't, if it is all a fantasy, if it is metaphorical not literal, if it all never happened, if, if, if, if, if...... "

jrhendren wrote on May 13, 2009 1:26 AM:

" dstew66 wrote on May 9, 2009 10:47 AM:
Your definition makes no sense. "

To the contrary my definition makes perfect sense, and goes along with Scripture. Paul states we are no longer under the Law, and Christ says he fulfilled the Law, with the word used in the definition I gave. "

jrhendren wrote on May 13, 2009 1:32 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 9, 2009 2:51 PM:
" The point that you don't get Deep Thoughts, is that they are ALL the words of God, they are ALL inspired by God, they are ALL TRUTHS. And by they I mean all the great works of literature all the sacred texts of the worlds great religions. None are more holy than any others. They are ALL full of great wisdom for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. You however don't appear to be one of those, your eyes are clamped shut and your ears are plugged. "

Your statement, though you do not agree are untrue. Do to the fact that their is only one true God. "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me." - Genesis 20:2-3
Maybe you should open your eyes and ears. How can the Bible be "ALL inspired by God, they are ALL TRUTHS" like other books, but God say he is the only God. When other books speak of different gods. "

shumphreys wrote on May 13, 2009 3:59 PM:

" Because Mr. Hendren other religions believe that their God is the one true God. So if there is really only ONE, than it is obvious that SHE goes by many names, appears in many forms/disguises, is something different to different people, has been written about in many different books, has been inspiration to many different peoples, has been worshipped/honored and dishonored in many different ways. In other words God is a figmant of each persons imagination, we create God in our image, not the other way around. "

jrhendren wrote on May 14, 2009 2:42 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 13, 2009 3:59 PM:
" Because Mr. Hendren other religions believe that their God is the one true God. So if there is really only ONE, than it is obvious that SHE goes by many names, appears in many forms/disguises, is something different to different people, has been written about in many different books, has been inspiration to many different peoples, has been worshipped/honored and dishonored in many different ways. In other words God is a figmant of each persons imagination, we create God in our image, not the other way around. "

Then why do you care so much about God? Why do you quote HIM so much? There is only one true God of the universe and some day everyone will see him and bow down, but for some it will be to late. He has taken on many forms, as the Scriptures state, the form of a dove, a wheel with in a wheel, the wind, and fiery tongues to name a few. "

shumphreys wrote on May 14, 2009 7:14 AM:

" Mr. Hendren as I point out on the other thread and have said many, many times, for better and worse religion has and will continue to play a major part in world affairs. If we want to figure out where we are going we need to have a basic understanding of ALL the worlds religions and their concepts of God/s. AND the Bible eventhough it is NOT the inerrant word of God it is still full of great wisdom about the human condition. My "soul" purpose is to get people to start THINKING and to open their eyes and ears. There are many different translations and interpretations of those translations of the Bible, many different religions, and ALL of us have to find and follow the path that is right for us, no one religion, no one sacred text has ALL the answers, has the corner on TRUTH, they are ALL TRUE and all full of great wisdom. "

jrhendren wrote on May 14, 2009 11:12 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 14, 2009 7:14 AM:
" Mr. Hendren as I point out on the other thread and have said many, many times, for better and worse religion has and will continue to play a major part in world affairs. If we want to figure out where we are going we need to have a basic understanding of ALL the worlds religions and their concepts of God/s. AND the Bible eventhough it is NOT the inerrant word of God it is still full of great wisdom about the human condition. My "soul" purpose is to get people to start THINKING and to open their eyes and ears. There are many different translations and interpretations of those translations of the Bible, many different religions, and ALL of us have to find and follow the path that is right for us, no one religion, no one sacred text has ALL the answers, has the corner on TRUTH, they are ALL TRUE and all full of great wisdom. "

I disagree with you, but luckily we live in a country, and have a God, that allows that. I can believe as I want and you can as you want. The problem arises when you say you are allowed to voice and work legislatively toward your opinion, but others can't and should not be allowed. When you say we should not be allowed to disagree with homosexual marriage you are trying to take the very freedom you say you are fighting for away. That is the main thing I am wanting you to see. "

shumphreys wrote on May 15, 2009 3:31 PM:

" No Mr. Hendren I am just pointing out that the Bible doesn't justify the abuse and persecution of homosexuals. If you are going to insist that it does than I can show that it doesn't. If you want to use the Bible to support your opinions on public policy I can use the Bible to support my opinions on public policy. It goes both ways Mr. Hendren. I can't help it if you can't make responsible arguments to support your beliefs. "

jrhendren wrote on May 18, 2009 2:47 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on May 15, 2009 3:31 PM:
" No Mr. Hendren I am just pointing out that the Bible doesn't justify the abuse and persecution of homosexuals. If you are going to insist that it does than I can show that it doesn't. If you want to use the Bible to support your opinions on public policy I can use the Bible to support my opinions on public policy. It goes both ways Mr. Hendren. I can't help it if you can't make responsible arguments to support your beliefs. "

First I am not calling nor supporting the abuse or persecution of homosexuals. I have made that quite clear. You are the one trying to make those in danger into a broader group, by your own definition, and explanation. The abuse or persecution of anyone unjustly is wrong. To believe it is is not biblical and immoral. The Bible does not encourage abuse or persecution of homosexuals, it does however say that those practicing in the act of homosexual activities, just as all that sin without having Christ, are in danger of the fires of Hell.
Secondly, it is not proper for you to use the Bible to support your opinion, when you lie. You lie in that you do not even believe in the Scriptures you use. You also lie by using Scriptures out of context, leaving out entire sections to make verses say as you want, and using Scripture to lead people in to believe falsehoods. "