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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:20 PM CDT
LETTER: Social democracy must replace capitalism

STEPHEN DAVIS, Charleston

Maybe I’ve been dreaming. I thought every American wanted the healthiest, fairest and most honorable social system possible, one that would be the inspiration and model for the world.

Capitalism cannot, by its very nature (allowing men to obtain excessive riches without merit, while impoverishing the common worker, and creating an inane, banal and bankrupt commercial culture), create Heaven (metaphorically speaking, at the least) on Earth.

Social democracy can, and it alone. Social democracy, in America, is easily understood. Christianity, in its pure form, and metaphorically speaking, describes Heaven, and how to get it. Essentially, it involves the adopting of integrity and virtue as the national ideals rather than excess profit (which is a capitalist-product, not a Jesus-product) and rampant corruption (a product of Hell, not Heaven).

But the evil empire (a deep and complex mystery power), weaving its web of clever destructiveness, consummate deceitfulness, and powerful distractions and obfuscations, has actually succeeded in convincing Americans that the very thing they need, and deep down want, namely, “social democracy,” is what we have most to fear. Ouch!

Social democracy is the only social/political/economic system that can create Heaven and Heavenly conditions. Yet we continue to stay with capitalism which, again, because of its nature, produces greed, institutions and systems to feed and nurture greed, injustice upon injustice, and corruption from top to bottom.

I don’t know how to interpret such a conundrum — who’s to blame? : 1) the evil puppet masters behind capitalism, or 2) the citizens who vote the political toadies of the evil system into office so that the country can be looted, pillaged and made a place more agreeable to someone like Jabba the Hut than Honest Abe.

Capitalism is the worship of money, power and privilege. It cannot save us. It does not serve us. But it tempts us, all that money, power and privilege, to be the worst that we can be. Capitalism has produced our health-care system, a perverse and horrible monster. (No one should be without access to health care.)

It has produced Wall Street, the stock market, toxic assets, corporate plundering, the loss of national respect, the loss of the middle class (the mainstay and backbone of any society), an educational system scandalously expensive and only superficially educative, and on and on, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

STEPHEN DAVIS

Charleston

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Jim1969 wrote on Apr 16, 2009 3:21 AM:

" Social democracy is just another term for socialism.

History has shown time and again that regardless of the political ideology there are those who seek to corrupt it and gather wealth and power unto themselves because of greed.

Capitalism did not cause the greed. It is not the problem. The real problem is the rampant greed itself and the lack of accountability and responsibility. "

jesus wrote on Apr 16, 2009 7:42 AM:

" Well since it's so bad here in America and you don't care for anything about it maybe you should think about getting out of it and try another country. Maybe Iran,China or something that fits your agenda,what ever that may be. Someone forcing you to stay here? "

ed miller wrote on Apr 16, 2009 7:51 AM:

" Greed will exist in any system. Look at history. Even in communist countries, the ruling elite lived well at the expense of the commoners. When people are working for the government and not for themselves, productivity grinds to a halt. Millions of immigrants came to this county to have the opportunity to provide a better life for themselves and their children and did so with a strong work ethic. They did not come here for free health care and a government handout. "

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2009 10:28 AM:

" great letter.

and jesus, jesus.....don't you have a cross to hang out on? LMAO! "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 16, 2009 10:35 AM:

" Hmmmm, well, I see our time is up, Stephen. Before our session next week, try to spend a little time in the library to sharpen your understanding of how a capitalist society functions.

Oh, and by the way, please leave your payment with the receptionist on your way out. As you know, you have already exceeded your annual policy limit for whining therapy. "

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2009 10:37 AM:

" you're right ed....we need to discontinue social security, medicare, medicaid, farm subsidies, child welfare, child support system, school lunch programs, free flu shots, vaccine programs, public assistnce to unwed mothers, public defenders, food stamps, VA benefits, fema, osha, taxpayer advocate, and most of all the public school system.

all socialist programs we don't need. "

even steven wrote on Apr 16, 2009 10:38 AM:

" What a bunch of rubbish! Capitalism is not perfect, but it is the best economic system to date. People are rewarded for their efforts, creativity, and drive. Some people are poor because they're lazy and or stupid, and that's just a fact. I'm not willing to fork over the money I earn to those who refuse to work or who make idiotic life choices. If my incentive is removed, I'll just do as little as possible. Why work hard if the fruits of my efforts are confiscated and redistributed? I'm self-employed and have taken great risks and suffered my own hardships to get where I am today, and I'm not willing to give up any of it just because someone snivels about life's inherent inquities. "

sapient wrote on Apr 16, 2009 11:14 AM:

" Another letter from a mamber of the entitlement crowd. "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 16, 2009 12:07 PM:

" sapient, I'm wondering if Stephen is an honor student. If so, maybe he would agree to exchange all of his A's and B's with less fortunate students who earned D's and F's.

He would be doing his part to eliminate academic greed and to create his own brand of Heaven in the classroom. "

oblivious wrote on Apr 16, 2009 1:33 PM:

" I totally disagree with you Steven. Here's why. I can tell by the way you wrote this that you are obviously a very devout man. A Christian man. However, not everyone who lives in America are Christians. Capitalism isn't the worship of money, but rather the reward for hard work. The "American Dream" is based solely upon the idealogy that if a person works hard they can achieve anything. There is already so much corruption in government. If socialism is to take place only the corrupt will have money. I do believe there should be some social programs, but not a blanket social agenda. "

jesus wrote on Apr 16, 2009 4:13 PM:

" and jesus, jesus.....don't you have a cross to hang out on? LMAO! "
------------------------
That's funnier then H_ll. LMAO "

Mike P wrote on Apr 16, 2009 7:14 PM:

" Ever heard of a church or televangelest, being weak to the temptation of all that money, millions of people, including little old ladies, who scrimp and save to send them, or leave them in their wills? Capitalism, needs rules, law, and oversight, to keep it a level playing field, limit monopolies, and keep it honest.

More was done in the last eight years to undo what was working fairly well, so all this trickle down the leg economics could work its magic instead.

Why isn't there any fully self service retail, based completely on the honor system. Just stock the merchandise every night, leave the doors unlocked, cash registers on the honor system, and no one watching. It would be packed up, and the register emptied, before lunch. Probably shelves, fixtures, doors, windows, or walls, might walk off the premisis too.

Why did they suspect doing pretty much the same thing to many government regulations, oversight agencies, and other business and consumer protections would be any different.

You might trust your kids, but you don't say there is no cerfew, rules or limits. I trust you to make responsible decisions. If you do, probably shouldn't be surprized at the results.

Capitalism didn't create this mess. The people charged with babysitting, or minding the store, dozed off, or just quit. For near a decade, the FED tweaked interest rates, just to keep inflating the bubble many knew was building. Capitalism works fine, but its not a stand alone institution, it never will be. "

Bernie wrote on Apr 17, 2009 6:54 AM:

" I'm a free market capitalist entrepreneur, but not every good or service should be a money making venture. Some goods and services should be public and not-for-profit for the Good of the Whole. We don't seem to be able to tell which is which. "

Becky wrote on Apr 17, 2009 8:48 AM:

" "Capitalism is the worship of money, power and privilege."

No Stephen, that's decadence, greed, narcissism. You still have the same problems with socialism. The problems we are now having with capitalism is that it MUST follow it's own rules and laws. In the past few decades, those rules have been ignored and no broken laws are being punished allowing the greed and decadence to break the entire world's financial structure. That is NOT capitalism, that is forms of plutocracy/corporatism which are unsustainable forms of government. None have ever lasted and never will because the elite fight amongst themselves for their "share" of the spoils and destroy each other in the process. To date, no one who has broken these laws are paying for their selfish excuberance with our invested monies. Until this happens and the rule of laws, checks and balances that were removed in 1999 are replaced, our current form of plutocratic government will implode upon itself. We cannot spend money we don't have "fixing" this. Some heads must roll. Laws need enforced. Punishments to those responsible carried out.

Ed Miller makes an excellent point with " When people are working for the government and not for themselves, productivity grinds to a halt. "

Why would I want to work 50 to 60 hours a week so the state can take my paycheck and distribute it amongst all and I get the same as the lazy bum down the street who works 10 to 15 hours a week? I wouldn't and not too many of us would. "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 17, 2009 1:50 PM:

" Bernie, you may have some misconceptions about what it means to be a "not-for-profit" organization.

To illustrate my point, please explain why Sarah Bush (a not-for-profit) doesn't offer its services for at least 20% less than Carle (a for-profit). After all, Sarah Bush is tax exempt. Should't that be reflected in their fee schedule?

Whether an organization is not-for-profit or for-profit, it doesn't seem to make one iota of difference when it comes time to send the bill. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 17, 2009 2:45 PM:

" Bernie has a good point. We often cut off our nose to spite our face, in order to punish those that we: (fill in the blank)_______________ (don't approve of) (aren't of our kind) AND it ends up costing us more in the long run, further on down the road, in ways that we should have forseen but chose to overlook.There need to be some services that are inexpensive or free for the benefit of all. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 17, 2009 2:47 PM:

" Becky I like your point about a Plutocracy. I think that is what our nation has been for a very long time, not Capatalistic or Socialistic. "

The Question wrote on Apr 18, 2009 8:13 AM:

" As a friend of mine said, American workers need debt relief and a raise in wages, not vast, endless bailouts for chiseling fatcat banksters.
Socialism is far, far preferable to fascism, which is what trillion-dollar taxpayer bailouts of rich financial frauds amounts to. "

Danny Boy wrote on Apr 18, 2009 9:10 AM:

" Just Like Jack said in the movie "As Good as it Gets"

"Are you mad because you have it so bad?", or are you mad because everyone else has it so good?". "

Bernie wrote on Apr 18, 2009 10:19 AM:

" Tom, the difference is I said "public AND not-for-profit" and meant by that "publicly owned" (like roads, highways, bridges, libraries, parks, schools, fire police military and child protection, health insurance for everyone over 65, to name a few examples. Sarah Bush Lincoln is a privately owned "not-for-profit" that makes tons of money and does not always return what is left over back to the public. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 18, 2009 1:30 PM:

" Another good word is Oligarchy, watched Bill Moyers Journal last night and he mentioned the word. Look it up. "

Jim1969 wrote on Apr 18, 2009 2:09 PM:

" There is really only about 1/2 an inch difference between socialism and fascism, and it is very easy for the former to transmute into the latter.

Take a look at Germany between WW I and WW II. While you are at it take a good hard look at the similarities of post WW I Germany and the US today.

Instead of lawyers in political leadership positions maybe we need historians who can and will actually heed the lessons. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 18, 2009 8:31 PM:

" "Capitalism cannot, by its very nature (allowing men to obtain excessive riches without merit..)"

For one thing, I really don't think that someone providing a good or service that people are willing to pay money for and amassing a fortune based on their ability to provide that good or service in an efficient and cost-effective way is allowing them to obtain riches "without merit". I think there is a heck of a lot of merit to that. Taking from everyone according to their means to ensure that everyone is provided for in accordance to their needs, or social-democracy, has never worked. The solution has never been to subscribe to a system in which almost nobody can achieve riches because merit has nothing to do with what one is able to achieve. This seems like such a simple concept to me that it baffles me to think anyone can consider themselves and intellectual and really believe socialism could work. There must be a severe lack of understanding in the area of human motivation. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 18, 2009 8:35 PM:

" Also, there are plenty of "social-democracies" available around the globe. If Mr. Davis, or anyone else, really thinks that is Heaven on Earth, let him go live there, but since this is the only truly free-market democracy in the world, I think we should be allowed to keep it so that everyone is afforded a fair choice. Aren't liberals supposed to be pro-choice? They have the choice to live in a socialist society, why shouldn't I be able to choose to live in a free-market society? By turning this into another floundering welfare state, they would take away my right to choose, and that is just wrong by their own standards.

DEFEND CAPITALISM: SUPPORT CONSERVATIVES RIGHT TO CHOOSE! "

InsaneWayne wrote on Apr 19, 2009 10:34 AM:

" Unbridled capitalism has brought this country to its knees twice in 80 years.

Its good to see someone have an opinion that requires a little thinking out of the box.

Most folks in this area are incapable of doing anything but marching to the same old beat. Which, by the way, is what got us here. They dont have the internal fortitude or the capacity to question anything or having an abstract thought.

Take a good look at the local economy, it obvious we used to make thing here now we dont. Both parties have sold us out over the years and now we all sell each other goods made in China.

The communist own us but in reality our leaders are responsible because most of us are still goose-stepping instead of having a single thought of our own.

Even though as of lately the Republicans have become the party of the rural illiterate, very wealthy and the old the Democrats must realize their politicians are also responsible.

Truly there isnt a dimes worth of difference between either.

This little forum is a great outlet, but if you read its always the same old people arguing the same old stale topics with nothing new. What a waste of mental energy and a good little forum.

Come on folks show me some new ideas. Im getting bored reading the same thing form. Everyone feeling there opinion is the only one and then trying to force it down everyone elses throat. "

Cognitus wrote on Apr 19, 2009 1:54 PM:

" even steven:"Capitalism is not perfect, but it is the best economic system to date. People are rewarded for their efforts, creativity, and drive."

Of course steven is talking about the people, as at AIG, who following typical capitalist economic principles, took their companies down into bankruptcy, gave themselves multi-million bonuses and carefully cashed their checks for their "efforts, creativity and drive" -- leaving the rest of us to groan and gnash our teeth when we look at our brokerage accounts.
Yip, "capitalism is the best system"
for those who are in the driver's seat
but not for the 99% who are riding in back without our seat belts.....
Note that steven wrote this toward the end of the month; wonder if he will still feel this way when he looks at his brokerage and mutual fund statements a couple of weeks from now? "

Cognitus wrote on Apr 19, 2009 2:10 PM:

" "Neither shall you covet your neighbours wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbours house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

It seems clear to me that Capitalism is in contradiction to the Holey Bible.....

And certainly no true capitalist would ever play the role of the Good Samaritan (who was obiously a Silly
Socialist). We see that clearly shown in the majority of comments in this column. "

Beaches wrote on Apr 19, 2009 3:57 PM:

" No true capitalist would ever play good samaritan? Hmmmm, who in great part, bankrolled our public library system? Who currently has a foundation that is spending millions on health and education resources for the entire world? What nation gives as much money as the US when there is a crisis or to help others? Who is paying for that? Working people - and if we all make the same and have less to spend altriustically, well, that is what will happen. Wealthy does not mean evil. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 19, 2009 4:28 PM:

" Beaches you seem to forget that the private fortune that bankrolled our public libraries was made by exploiting workers: low pay, no health benefits,long hours, no overtime pay, toxic working conditions and the company also disposed of toxic waste in ways that the rest of us are still paying for and trying to cleanup. The philanthropy (all too often) came and comes at the end of life when the donor is getting worried about making it into heaven. "

The Question wrote on Apr 19, 2009 7:11 PM:

" Americans are "consumers" in exactly the same sense that overfed cattle are "consumers," and for exactly the same purpose. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 19, 2009 8:18 PM:

" " "Neither shall you covet your neighbours wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbours house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

It seems clear to me that Capitalism is in contradiction to the Holey Bible.....

You seem to be confused, Cognitus. A capitalist would not desire his neighbors house, donkey, etc., he would simply work hard to earn his own. Those who favor social-democracy are the ones who see their neighbor having more and feeling sorry for themselves cry that they deserve it just as much and therefore should have the government grant it to them. The inability to process information by some on this site is truly amazing. The arguments made for socialism wouldn't work on a nineteen year-old philosophy student, yet grown "intellectuals" are trying to convince us that it is the only truth and we are just too unedumacated to understand it. What an elementary tactic. "

Bernie wrote on Apr 20, 2009 8:19 AM:

" Health insurers break the rules (in so many ways) but start with the fact that the fewer goods and services they provide, the more money they take for themselves. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:05 AM:

" You are wrong Just a Soldier those that favor helping those in need (what you and others call social democracy) are those who can put the needs of others above their own greed. Didn't your mother ever teach you to share? "

takeasneededforpain wrote on Apr 20, 2009 11:54 AM:

" Jim1969 wrote:

"There is really only about 1/2 an inch difference between socialism and fascism, and it is very easy for the former to transmute into the latter.

Take a look at Germany between WW I and WW II. While you are at it take a good hard look at the similarities of post WW I Germany and the US today.

Instead of lawyers in political leadership positions maybe we need historians who can and will actually heed the lessons."

You need to revisit your Junior High political science class. Socialism fits into the left end of the political spectrum, between Liberal and Communism. Fascism is the extreme RIGHT. Your Neo-conservatives are far closer to being fascists than anybody else in Washington. What I'm saying here is that Fascism came about in Germany by elevating one figure or party above their constitutional powers (much like Bush's "re-interpretation" of the Executive Branch's duties and powers). Hitler was declared High Chancellor of Germany, riding on the popular dissent of the people living in extreme inflation. He told then what they wanted to hear, and before long, he got what he wanted: absolute power (which, we should remember, "...corrupts absolutely").

I do, however, take issue with the call for changing to a "social democracy".
That's letting the lunatics run the asylum.

I think there should be more controls on the private sector to prevent another debacle with the markets, but that capitalism itself is a sounder approach for this country than social democracy.

The Founding Fathers established this country as a Republic for a reason, after all. "

Rotty wrote on Apr 20, 2009 1:36 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:05 AM:

"You are wrong Just a Soldier those that favor helping those in need (what you and others call social democracy) are those who can put the needs of others above their own greed. Didn't your mother ever teach you to share?"

.......

Uh, shumphreys, I got a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell ya.

ROTFLMAO! "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 20, 2009 1:50 PM:

" No, Susan, you are wrong. I am not opposed to helping people in need. I support charities and plan to do more as my wife and I see our income grow over the years. What I oppose is mandating people to share. Those who want to share will, those who do not will simply find ways around it, which will only increase the burden on the rest of us. Don't kid yourself, even the liberals in the government will make sure there are loopholes to keep their money (didn't you see how many of them had to step away from cabinet appointments due to tax problems). You are naive if you think a social democracy will not deal the final death blow to personal motivation in America. I teach high school and I can tell you that the entitlement mentality is already bad enough. Making this change would sink the ship. I hope it doesn't happen, but you better believe I will be screaming "I told you so" at the top of my lungs when it does. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 20, 2009 4:06 PM:

" Just a Soldier did you not say, "Those who favor social-democracy are the ones who see their neighbor having more and feeling sorry for themselves cry that they deserve it just as much and therefore should have the government grant it to them." That isn't stating that you are opposed to mandating people to share....now is it? Perhaps you should learn to write more precisely. The entitlement mentality is bad enough, but you don't change that mentality by eliminating social programs and throwing people out on the street. If you are a teacher you should realize that. Social democracy won't sink the ship, I hate to tell you this but the ship has already been sunk by the forces of greed and corrupt Capitalism. "

Danny Boy wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:12 PM:

" Capitalism, at it's best, what are you going to do? ....No Insurance.

I'm recently unemployed, I went to a Doc, for a skin problem $200, they did biopsy, $600, see you on monday with results $200, ...well they are not back yet another $200.

We will call when results are in $45 fee. For Phone notice, And schedule another visit.

Another visit $250

People wonder why Health care costs so much, because the doctors are like the mob, come back again and again for another visit.....What a scam.... "

father bob wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:17 PM:

" you have a group of rightwing radicals yammering about a black president who's going to take away guns, force blatant homosexuality to the streets, demonize christianity, and turn the US into the next cuba.

you have the likes of glen beck and rush limbaugh trying to scare these illiterate gullible, ne're do wells into thinking all is lost after 90 days in office.

i really can't speak for anyone else, but my life continues pretty damn normally. sure i've lost some investment equity, but nothing else has changed. i haven't seen beck's predicted run on banks, or his so called endless souplines, or limbaugh's antichrist surface or his military coup.

but sometime, somewhere another poor soul will succumb to this BS and start shooting innocents in the streets in retaliation for something that only exists on beck and limbaugh's polluted airwaves. "

father bob wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:30 PM:

" Last week in an interview with the Kansas City Star editorial board, Rep. Todd Tiahrt (R-KS) risked alienating thousands of ditto-heads by giving his honest opinion of whether Rush Limbaugh was the de facto leader of the GOP. No, no, hes just an entertainer, Tiahrt said.

According to the Wichita Eagle (via Kansas Jackass), Tiahrts office is now also rushing to apologize:

Asked about the episode and resulting Web buzz, Tiahrt spokesman Sam Sackett said Tiahrt was not speaking negatively about Limbaugh but was trying to defend him against the suggestion that Limbaugh could be blamed for the GOPs woes. The congressman believes Rush is a great leader of the conservative movement in America not a party leader responsible for election losses, Sackett told The Eagle editorial board. Nothing the congressman said diminished the role Rush has played and continues to play in the conservative movement.

As ThinkProgress has noted, other Republicans have made similar courageous statements, only to eventually back down in the face of Limbaughs great power. "

cd wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:39 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Apr 20, 2009 9:05 AM:

" You are wrong Just a Soldier those that favor helping those in need (what you and others call social democracy) are those who can put the needs of others above their own greed. Didn't your mother ever teach you to share? "
---------------
Yes, my mother taught me to share. The operative word being "me". That is entirely different to the government sharing by stealing from me. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 20, 2009 5:45 PM:

" Susan, are you implying that I didn't initially state my opposition to mandating people to share or that the statement you are quoting somehow contradicts my opposition to mandating people to share? I think the only way I could write clearly enough for you to understand is if I did it with crayon on construction paper and avoided letters, instead using less complicated pictures glitter. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 21, 2009 7:15 AM:

" Drawing pictures is always good Just a Soldier if you can draw better than you write. Don't get huffy just because I pointed out a flaw in your first statement and restatement. As I said, this ship called Capitalism has already been sunk by greed and corruption which I might add is what has brought down every (well at least most) great civilizations. We are just realizing that our Democratic ideals are not enough to save us from our own shortcomings. "

The Question wrote on Apr 21, 2009 8:09 AM:

" Heres are just a few of the things that American conservatives have screamingly described as socialism and/or un-American over the years: womens suffrage, the 40-hour work week, the minimum wage, food and drug regulation, Social Security, child labor laws and civil rights, including the very idea of ending slavery.
If American conservatives are ever lost and -- for some unimaginable reason -- you want to find them, just look on the wrong side of history. "

Becky wrote on Apr 21, 2009 9:37 AM:

" Insane says: "Even though as of lately the Republicans have become the party of the rural illiterate, very wealthy and the old the Democrats must realize their politicians are also responsible.

Truly there isnt a dimes worth of difference between either."

Exactly! We've been sold down the river to lobbyists and political influence by BOTH parties. They are just a 2 headed monster that is feeding on us and our complacency. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 21, 2009 11:24 AM:

" Two things, Susan: first, I was not huffy that you pointed out a flaw, I was asking what flaw you see. I made two statements consistent with my opposition to mandated sharing. I am asking you to explain what flaw you see. Secondly, it has just occured to me that I have won this exchange. You see, from what I have seen of your posts, you will actually debate until you run out of ammunition and then just begin trying to pick holes in the way in which your opposition has stated their case. I really didn't think I would destroy you this quickly though. You must be losing as step. "

even steven wrote on Apr 21, 2009 11:44 AM:

" I see some of the members of the socialist non-workers party took exception to my support of capitalism. I fully expected that. Capitalism is not the problem. Corruption is the problem, and I've been aware of market manipulation and collusion by our own government for a long time. I sill maintain that nobody is "entitled" to a portion of my income. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 21, 2009 12:13 PM:

" CD if it is done by the rule of law it isn't stealing now is it? But why are people screaming about giving to those who are suffering and in need when the problem seems to be with those who are neither suffering nor are in need exploiting those in the middle (you and I and the rest of the schmucks)? "

Rotty wrote on Apr 21, 2009 1:09 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Apr 21, 2009 7:15 AM:

"this ship called Capitalism has already been sunk by greed and corruption"

.......

Alright! When it settles, it'll set right next to your ship, that's been there for ages.

.......

shumphreys wrote on Apr 21, 2009 7:15 AM:

"We are just realizing that our Democratic ideals are not enough to save us from our own shortcomings."

.......

I agree! Your hypocritical soapbox stands will still not be enough to save us from the political twits now in office, either.

By the way, it took you long enough to come to that realization, slowpoke.

Ahoy there! "

Becky wrote on Apr 21, 2009 3:05 PM:

" Common sense needs to replace this lunacy we call a government!!! Fire them ALL!!! Take away their power, people!! FIRE THE LIARS! "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 21, 2009 4:26 PM:

" I really didn't think I would destroy you this quickly though.

Wow! Is our friend Cybil back? That sounds like one of his pompous remarks. lol!

Don't blow a gasket JAS, I was just kidding... "

father bob wrote on Apr 21, 2009 5:04 PM:

" http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2009/04/21/tomo/ "

father bob wrote on Apr 21, 2009 5:34 PM:

" yep good old capitalism at it's finest.

great to know even in this economically trying time you can STILL buy off anyone:

TALLAHASSEE Buyers of yachts and private airplanes in Florida would be spared from paying the full 6 percent sales tax on their purchases. But magazine subscribers would now start paying taxes.

Those were among the decisions the House Finance and Tax Council made Monday as it weighed revisions to Florida's tax system in a wide-ranging bill that creates two sales tax holidays for shoppers and leaves the budget $25 million in the red.

House Republicans who pushed through the tax breaks said it was a balancing act between promoting jobs and raising revenue. They were confident they would find the needed money by the end of the legislative session on May 1.

"We're going to get there," promised Rep. Ellyn Bogdanoff, the Fort Lauderdale Republican who heads the Finance and Tax Council.

Some of decisions in the tax bill were motivated by equity: Because a magazine that arrives in the mail is tax-free but the same magazine is taxed when sold at a convenience store, they argued the tax should apply to both.

Others were motivated by tax avoidance: Florida residents too often skip paying sales taxes on purchases of high-end planes and boats by keeping them out of state for six months. By capping the tax, legislators argued, buyers may keep their boats and planes in Florida.

And sometimes they just couldn't agree, in which case the Republican majority won. A Democratic proposal to require the sales tax be imposed on bottled water in containers one gallon or less was defeated in a party line vote.

In the end, the bill was approved unanimously as both Republicans and Democrats admitted the final version was not perfect.

The measure was intended to eliminate several sales tax exemptions to finance the two $29 million sales tax holidays one for three tax-free days in June for hurricane supplies and another for three tax-free days in August for back-to-school supplies.

But a series of amendments whittled those exemptions and added new ones. The end result is that the bill will cost the state about $25 million more than it will produce in new revenue.

Mary Ellen Klas can be reached at meklas@MiamiHerald.com. "

Jim1969 wrote on Apr 21, 2009 6:11 PM:

" Once the first full step is taken to transform the USA from a Democratic Republic into a Social Democracy there really is only a 1/2 a step remaining to transform it into either a fascist or communist society.

Socialism, and yes even communism, look really nice on paper, but like a good book that is made into movie something often gets lost in the translation. "

Beaches wrote on Apr 21, 2009 10:37 PM:

" shumphreys: Where is this utopia that you want to live in? I too think it is important to help others, in fact I work in a helping profession. We donate to charities and do what we can to better the lives of those around us. But guess what - I'm also interested in bettering my life, and in being able to save so that we can support our children and not depend on the charity of others to help us educate them. I'm tired of being considered greedy by people who think it's "evil" to want to do better for ourselves, and to not want to make things easier for those who choose not to work. Some people legitimately can't work, and I am happy to help them, but I know far too many people who tell me that the deserve the luxuries I have even though they aren't working multiple jobs to have them. Both my spouse and I work more than 1 job to maintain a lifestyle that allows us the extras. I resent the government taking more of my money to give to people who aren't willing to put forth that type of effort. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 22, 2009 7:59 AM:

" Just a soldier I didn't imply, I stated that your statements were not consistant with each other. I will let others go back and read and decide for themselves. None of these exchanges are about "winning or losing" they are about putting forth valid points that hold water. You made a sweeping statement about those who support "social democracy" and I pointed out the error of your thinking. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 22, 2009 8:07 AM:

" Beaches, this "utopia" that I envision is a FANTASY, it will never happen. BUT there are many things that we as a society can do and should do to make the world a better place for ALL (that includes making it better for ME). First you seem to have the same paranoid complex that many Christians on these threads have, "they" (whoever they are) are out to get ME (take my money to help the lazy). Many of the posters have been talking about the rich paying more, distributing the wealth, and it doesn't sound to me as though you are one of those. One of the genius maneuvers of those in power (republicans) is this fear tactic, making the average schmuck feel that HE is the one who will lose the little he has so that the wealthy in power can continue with business as usual. It is amazing to me how folks like you will cut off their nose to spite their face, which is exactly what folks like you do time and time again. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 22, 2009 2:11 PM:

" Susan, where in the world did Christianity become part of the equation? You can't just lump all of your little gripes and rants into one ball. Further, by their own admission, the Obama administration has already planned to raise taxes on people making as little as $250,000 a year. Granted, that is more than I will ever make, but I would hardly call that the greedy super-rich. The fact of the matter is that raising taxes on the rich, or as I like to call them "employers", only helps the little guy on paper. In reality, boosting those taxes makes expansion and the creation of new jobs less desirable, and in many cases makes downsizing a necessity. Now this tax hike on the "super-wealthy" is only to pay for the tiny chunk of stuff they are trying to get done now, so I ask, where will the line be drawn if they get the universal healthcare they want? Do you have any idea how expensive that will be to undertake? History has shown that this type of government is brought in on the shoulders of naive people like you who believe that by looking out for everyone we will all find prosperity, but the reality is that eventually nobody finds prosperity except for those in power. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 23, 2009 8:15 AM:

" Just a Soldier are you so blind that you don't realize how expensive our inefficient, wasteful, healthcare system is right now! Universal health care will save a bundle over the long haul: eliminating lost productivity of workers, eliminating expensive emergency room visits for things which if treated earlier could have been less costly, ..... You are so hung up on your self that you can't see how helping others helps you in the long run. Raising taxes on those who earn $250,000 or more a year is a nice step, but it would be better in my opinion to eliminate some of the loop holes and deductions that the super wealthy can take advantage of and those less fortunate can't. It is people like you who only look after their own self interests that keep this nation from advancing. "

Beaches wrote on Apr 23, 2009 4:15 PM:

" Shumphreys - I appreciate the attack on my faith, as it seems to be the way of the world these days. I'm fairly confident that I didn't attack anyone's faith or ethnicity, perhaps you would like to do that next? I mentioned, I believe in helping others, I'm not paranoid about me me me, (perhaps you are projecting on that issue), but I am concerned when I hear that people in the area are asking to be laid off because they are making almost the same money and their medical benefits are actually improved. Or when I hear people tell me that they are laid off but not really looking because they prefer to take unemployment to working. My spouse and I both work more than one job to provide well for our family, and it is a bit frustrating for the government to take a bigger bite out of our money to help people who aren't trying to help themselves. I realize not everyone falls into that category, but many do. "

father bob wrote on Apr 23, 2009 5:13 PM:

" working two jobs, you need to be sure you're having enough withheld so you won't owe taxes.

working people will have had their withholding reduced actually giving them a few more dollars per paycheck. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 23, 2009 9:02 PM:

" Susan, you would be right if you weren't so darn wrong. If there was an example of a universal healthcare system that actually provides competent healthcare, I would be on board, but you seem blind to the fact that every country currently using a plan like the one you are advocating provides inferior service to our "inefficient" one. If you doubt me, get ahold of someone in Canada or the UK and ask them. It shouldn't be too hard to track them down since so many of them pay out of pocket to come here and get the treatments their government says are not worth the money. Instead of scrapping our current system, which outperforms any other system in the world, we should just be looking for ways to make it better without trying to reinvent it. "

1cav wrote on Apr 23, 2009 9:10 PM:

" Is Davis trying for a Czar appoint by Obama ? "

Early Bird wrote on Apr 24, 2009 5:52 AM:

" If the Canadian health care system is so bad, why do most reports show their citizens and just as satisfied with their health care as are Americans with theirs? It seems the biggest critics of the Canadian system are Americans. I also have to wonder about those that come to this country, probably a minute number, could it be one of those the grass is always green situation for the most part? I have a friend who always returns to Canada for any serious health care concerns, and as an employee of EIU has excellent health care coverage.

Our health care sysem, while not broke leaves a lot to be desired. When insurance clerks make the decisions on medicines and tests, something is wrong. Too much of the money we spend goes to the insurance companies. It may not be necessary to scrap our system, but it's certainly time to overhaul it. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 24, 2009 8:17 AM:

" Beaches I haven't attacked Christianity on this thread or others. I have pointed out inconsistencies in Christian arguments and errors in Biblical "interpretations". I used the example here because the same folks that are screaming that the "sky is falling", over taxes are the same ones that scream "the sky is falling" over gay marriage issues, religious tolerance,....they have been fed such a line of fear and hate, someone is going to get my share/take the little I have/rob me to pay paul...they are cutting off their nose to spite their face. Stop and look at the BIGGER picture, whether universal health care, social programs to help those in need, even the bailout of the fat cats in the financial system. It is the abuses of the systems, the greed and outright fraud that are the problems and let's do something productive about stopping the abuses, all this whining/complaining is getting this country nowhere. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 24, 2009 8:23 AM:

" Just a Soldier you are so darned WRONG about such an important issue, Universal Health Care. Seeing that ALL have minimal coverage is what the effort is about. There is NOTHING that would keep someone like you from purchasing suplemental insurance to cover more.That is in fact being done today, supplemental insurancee policies to medicare, supplemental policies to cover dental care, supplemental policies for catastrophic care,.... Universal Health Care is about minimal coverage for ALL. "

Rotty wrote on Apr 24, 2009 6:51 PM:

" The (screaming that the "sky is falling") shoe was on the other foot, not all that long ago.

It's funny how throughout time & changes in venues will do that.

The "nose-less" knows no bounds....

....& neither does hypocritical talk. "

The Question wrote on Apr 24, 2009 7:27 PM:

" The (screaming that the "sky is falling") shoe was on the other foot, not all that long ago.
---
The use of torture as official American policy, permanent secret imprisonment without trial, the invasion and occupation of a nation based entirely on lies, the drowning of a city, unlimited police state spying on Americans and the biggest world economic crisis in at least 80 years, driven entirely by high-level corporate fraud.
You should look up once in a while, Rotty, and pay attention. The sky did fall. "

Rotty wrote on Apr 24, 2009 11:47 PM:

" And....

All the king's horses,
And all the king's men,
Couldn't put Humpty together again. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 25, 2009 8:17 AM:

" I have had relatives retired and living in Canada who retained their American citizenship and had health benefits from their American employers who had to come to the US for their medical care, their benefit plans weren't accepted in Canada. I have also known of some folks along the border who came to the US because a US hospital was closer than the nearest Canadian hospital. So there are many reasons why folks from Canada come here. Don't assumer they come because they dislike the Canadian system. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 27, 2009 9:27 AM:

" The problem with the argument FOR universal healthcare is that there is no proof that it will be an improvement. The fact is that we have the best medical treatments available on Earth as it stands right now. Could progress me made to make it more efficient and affordable? Sure, but scrapping the whole thing in exchange for a system that has been proven to be substandard by comparison in order to make us all "feel good" is reckless at best. "

shumphreys wrote on Apr 27, 2009 11:28 AM:

" You miss the point entirely Just a Soldier, some people and I will stress that again SOME people in the US have the best health care in the world, IF they have insurance to cover the cost or are quite wealthy. No one is talking about scrapping our enitre health care system so you don't need to get your knickers in a knot spreading misinformation and fear! "

Just a Soldier wrote on Apr 27, 2009 11:34 PM:

" I have good healthcare, always have, and I am FAR from wealthy, so who is spreading misinformation? You are spitting the same class-warfare the left has been using for decades. The simple fact is that healthcare is available for those willing to work for it. I just don't want to try raising my kids in a society that provides everything but incentives. How can I teach them to work hard and provide for themselves if the entire system is setup to take from them in order to provide for the kids down the street who are unwilling to work? You say that is not what social democracy is about, but that is exactly where it will end up. The social programs that we already have in place are constantly abused by people who don't need it, and while I understand and agree that some people do need it, I simply don't see how financing even more comprehensive social programs is going to do anything other than compound the problem. When the incentive to not produce becomes more appealing that the incentive to produce, disaster is inevitable. "