" George Bush is a spawn of a satanical figure,obama just a puppet for more evil distractions.Organized religion has also been twisted around to meet greedy peoples needs.Religion & politics never mix never will.I was tought the basics live,love learn about Jesus,and in the end the only thing that matters is what one did between the dash on your head-stone.As far as recieving any seriousness out of these comment sections forget it everythings a big joke on here mostly dominated by a few who seem to sleep with their laptops.(hmmm streets paved with gold... interesting) "

" In a recent Clergy View editorial/commentary Rev. Steve Mc Cann said of these quote s. In Matthew 10:32-33, Jesus said, Therefore, whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. He also said in John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Those words are not tolerant, nor are they inclusive. Jesus loved, but He was brave and stood for truth. He stood for something. I will too. Will you?

There are two ways to look at Rev.McCanns statement. First the statements say nothing about tolerating those who dont believe what you believe. Tolerating by the way is allowing others to believe what they believe. Second he is right the statements are not inclusive so why I wonder has he chosen to promote these statements rather than the statements in the Bible that are inclusive, tolerant, respectful of others?

And there are plenty: let he who has not sinned cast the first stone; Matthew 25, the least you did for one of these who is my brother you did unto me, the parable of the Good Samaritan, the passage about there being two important commandmentsLove the Lord your God with all your heart.... and the second is just as great, Love thy neighbor as thy brother . "

" Yes, there will always be critics, just as there will always be vapid drivel written by preachers. "

" Thank you Rev. Steve McCann!
From some of the things you've written,
I think I would like to visit your church.
And I haven't been to any church for a long time, but you have some good teachings, thank you and God bless you! "

" LIVING IN FEAR IS NOT LIVING AT ALL "

" Good grief Susan,

His message is about handling criticism, not tolerating everyone's little nuances. Totally different message there. He even STATES that the words were not tolerant. Jesus said if you want to go to heaven, you have to do it his way. He never said to kill everyone who doesn't go along. Sorry if that isn't tolerant enough for you. What kind of value would any religion have, or any organization for that matter, if everyone involved could just do anything they wanted and we all had to like it.
If you weren't so quick just to bash on every hint of Christianity, maybe you could have figured that out and taken something positive out of it. "

" Now look Steve, just look at what you just started. :) "

" shumphreys wrote on Mar 20, 2009 7:28 PM:
There are two ways to look at Rev.McCanns statement. First the statements say nothing about tolerating those who dont believe what you believe. Tolerating by the way is allowing others to believe what they believe. Second he is right the statements are not inclusive so why I wonder has he chosen to promote these statements rather than the statements in the Bible that are inclusive, tolerant, respectful of others?

And there are plenty: let he who has not sinned cast the first stone; Matthew 25, the least you did for one of these who is my brother you did unto me, the parable of the Good Samaritan, the passage about there being two important commandments Love the Lord your God with all your heart.... and the second is just as great, Love thy neighbor as thy brother . "
---------------------------------------

The first statement you refer to is directed at those who dont accept Christ for what he said he was and is very clear in its meaning:
John 14:6, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me..

In other words, the way to God the Father is only Jesus, the savior.

Mat 10:32-33 is telling us that those who chose to confess him here on earth to men (witness- beggars telling other beggars where we found salvation and living water) he will confess to the father and those who dont well, they wont be in heaven, they will have a different fate.

God himself tolerates mankind to accept him or not- thats the gift of free will. He does clearly state what the ultimate price is for not accepting his son. Again, the choice is up to each and every individual.

In fact, the additional quotes you used are perfect examples of how a Christian is to act, in love and kindness to all. Do Christians always show this love- heavens no. Thats why we need Christ throughout all of our time on this earth, because as sinners we also continue to sin.

Please dont confuse the acts of Christians with Christ; he was the one who didnt sin, not us. We always have and will always continue to be sinners, just saved sinners trusting in the perfection of Christ and his payment for us on the cross.

Please also dont confuse religion with Christ. The persons that he showed the most displeasure with and had the strongest condemnation for, was the religious leaders of that day.

God made salvation through Jesus a free gift to all, but to receive it each individual person has to make the decision for themselves and actually accept.

No where in the Word does it say we are to hit people over the head, tie them up and drag them kicking a screaming into his kingdom.

You see, in the end it is a personal choice. "

" Well, Susan must be one of those people who think you should only have to follow the rules that you like. You can't pick and choose what you want to follow in the Bible. You have to use the whole book. Question, you ought to know about drivel with as much that comes out of your mouth all the time. "

" Bps exactly there isn't anything in that statement that tells you to persecute, denigrate, deny legal rights to, to those that Do NOT accept that message. That isn't a message about tolerance of those that are different. "

" So Just Wondering if you have to follow the whole book how do you reconcile Genesis I and Genesis II and Matthew 25 with Matthew 10, to name a few of the conflicting passages. Again the question remains "Why has Rev. McCann chosen to select these two passages from the Bible as the ones to present and promote, rather than the passages I cited?" AND why does he say that they are not tolerant, when neither addresses tolerance? He could select passages that promote the heart of Jesus message which was......? Do any of you even know what it was? I think that Bps understands, read his middle paragraph "examples of how a Christian is supposed to act." It comes down to how you CHOOSE to use your religion, to promote peace or strife, to help you become a better more compassionate person or a worse one. "

" shump- God made us all the same. You are the one who CHOOSES to be different. "

" One last comment, for now, TOLERANCE. What does it mean to each of you? It doesn't mean that you have to BELIEVE what others believe. It just means that you accept their right to believe what they believe as they accept your right to believe what you believe. For everyone not just Christians (since the same message is found in ALL the great religion) it comes down to what do you do next? How do you treat those that are different? Do you show them respect and human dignity, do you fear them and demonize them, do you "do unto them as you would have them do unto you"? FOR ALL the worlds great religions it is ALL about how you treat your fellow man, especially those that are different because of: race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, social status, wealth, education, nationality, religion or lack thereof. "

" Oh shumphreys, you should be so PROUD. I mean the way you promote peace and love and tolerance of others is ...well...I am just speechless. "

" shumphreys wrote on Mar 23, 2009 8:35 AM:
" Why has Rev. McCann chosen to select these two passages from the Bible as the ones to present and promote, rather than the passages I cited?"

Because HE wrote the article, not you. Those passages supported his point about handling criticism. There are over 23,000 verses in the Bible. I'm sure he is deeply sorry, he did not select the ones that you wanted. Please feel free to write another letter to editor and you can pick whichever verses that you choose. After all, you are the self proclaimed expert on religion in Central Illinois. "

" Thats why they call it a living bible,maybe the Rev.should consult with shumpries before he writes another god like thought to make sure she concures with his thoughts. "

" "But my message today is to encourage you to not let critics bother you."

I hate to be a "critic" here (sorry, couldn't help it) , but I have to beg to differ. I've learned many, MANY things from critics. Many critics I've ran accross knew more about what I thought I knew and was rambling on about until they gratiously enlightened me with their knowledge and educated me that I was wrong. Without criticism, how would we expand, enlighten, learn? If no one criticized, nothing would change, grow, get stronger. There's a big difference from criticizing and bullying. "

" Susan

IF you knew anything about Christianity you would know that Christians believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, not by sacrificing a Goat or Pidgeon.
For Christians, The New Testament started when Jesus died to cover our, and your sins in his blood so God could no longer see them. Does the word Passover mean anything to you? Everyones name is in the Judgement Book, some get passed over some don't.

It really wouldn't hurt you to go to Steve's church, at least then, you might understand The Bible. "

" Sorry Her Child we are not all the same as Mohammed says in the Koran, if God wanted all folks to be Muslims he would have made them that way. There is great variety in this world and it is that variety that is our strength. Do you honestly think that God isn't INTELLIGENT enough to realize that different folks progress along their road at different speeds, that "one size does NOT fit all especially when it comes to religion", that whatever you call it--Heaven, Nirvana,the Tao, Peace, it is all the same, in the end. "

" Mr. Miller if someone doesn't want their thoughts commented on they should keep them to themselves. This forum is for open discussion whether you like it or not. I pointed out the error in his argument, the passages are NOT about tolerance. If you want to dispute that statement and prove that the passages are about tolerance than do so. If you want to prove that Jesus message is not about how you treat your fellow man than do so. That is what this forum is for. "

" Yes he should Just Wondering, because this world needs to face the issue of intolerance and what each one of us does to promote it, directly or indirectly. The society that tolerates intolerance will be destroyed by it. I say that ALL religions are valid, good, contain TRUTH, and that each person has to find and follow the path that is right for him or her. What do you say Just Wondering? "

" Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and longing are the motive force behind all human endeavor and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present themselves to us.

Now what are the feelings and needs that have led men to religious thought and belief in the widest sense of the words? A little consideration will suffice to show us that the most varying emotions preside over the birth of religious thought and experience. With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions - fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death.

Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connections is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates illusory beings more or less analogous to itself on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend. Thus one tries to secure the favor of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, according to the tradition handed down from generation to generation, propitiate them or make them well disposed toward a mortal.

In this sense I am speaking of a religion of fear. This, though not created, is in an important degree stabilized by the formation of a special priestly caste which sets itself up as a mediator between the people and the beings they fear, and erects a hegemony on this basis. In many cases a leader or ruler or a privileged class whose position rests on other factors combines priestly functions with its secular authority in order to make the latter more secure; or the political rulers and the priestly caste make common cause in their own interests.

~Albert Einstein~ "

" So is ed playing monitor again? "

" father bob

Yeah, and just look at his hairdo!!! "

" shumphreys wrote on Mar 23, 2009 9:15 AM:

" One last comment, for now, TOLERANCE. What does it mean to each of you? It doesn't mean that you have to BELIEVE what others believe. It just means that you accept their right to believe what they believe as they accept your right to believe what you believe. For everyone not just Christians (since the same message is found in ALL the great religion) it comes down to what do you do next? How do you treat those that are different? Do you show them respect and human dignity, do you fear them and demonize them, do you "do unto them as you would have them do unto you"? FOR ALL the worlds great religions it is ALL about how you treat your fellow man, especially those that are different because of: race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, social status, wealth, education, nationality, religion or lack thereof. "
-------------------
Why do liberals preach 'tolerance' until it comes to gun and religion?
Liberals want to ban all guns, and shove Christianity into some obscure hole.
Liberals will kiss up to athiest, agnostics, heathens, and Islamics, but have no room for Christians. "

" shumphreys wrote on Mar 23, 2009 1:07 PM:
" Mr. Miller if someone doesn't want their thoughts commented on they should keep them to themselves. This forum is for open discussion whether you like it or not. I pointed out the error in his argument, the passages are NOT about tolerance."

Who didn't want their thoughts commented on? I never read that. You did not point out the error in his argument. He SAYS the passages are not tolerant. You are AGREEING WITH HIM. His article was about standing in the face of criticism, NOT TOLERANCE. If you want to get on your soapbox about tolerance, then that is your right. You can't fault the Reverend for not lambasting intolerance because that's not what he was writing about.

Gee Susan, why do hate Christians so much? Did a Nun kick sand in your face at the beach or something? "

" Me thinks she was kicked out of a convent! "

" Truth does not demand belief, Dan Barker said. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it. "

" ed miller wrote on Mar 23, 2009 5:47 PM:

"Gee Susan, why do you hate Christians so much? Did a Nun kick sand in your face at the beach or something?"

.......

ROTFLMAO!!!!
Excellant, Mr. Miller! "

" Liberals will kiss up to athiest, agnostics, heathens, and Islamics, but have no room for Christians. "



Considering that the majority of Christians consider themselves to be liberal, your comment makes no sense, ed.

Not hating everyone different than yourself is not "kissing up". It's called tolerance, something that some conservatives can't relate to very well.

Your ignorant mocking of Barney Frank's name make me wonder if you want to add homosexuals to your list of hated folks? Or are there some issues there?

Speaking of that, I was watching a TV preacher walking around lisping and acting like he had limp wrists and the crowd was roaring their delight. This went on for about 5 minutes. The preacher's name was Jesse Duplantis, and I have to say it was rather disgusting to watch a so called man of God act in such a manner, but as I said his audience was eating it up.

And gee ed, did some liberal kick sand in your face at the beach or something? "

" Mickey it wouldn't hurt you to read the Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, the Buddhist Sutras or the Bible. Or at least get yourself a general book about the Worlds great Religions and learn about them. They aren't sacrificing goats or pigeons, by the way. "

" NO Mr. Miller I am saying the passages have nothing to do with tolerance or intolerance. NOT that the passages are not tolerant. THERE is a VERY BIG difference. Think about it. You by the way told me that I had no business commenting on his letter, so to speak. "

" Mr. Miller saying that ALL religions are equal is not an attack on Christianity or Christians. Christians are just as bad as any other group, Capitalists, Communists, Pro-lifers.... They are also just as good as they choose to make themselves and that is shown by how they treat their fellow man, ALL of them, especially those that are different from them. "

" religion is a warm fuzzy feel good thing that amounts to nothing more than a social club for those involved. "

" not my quote, Harry.

Yes, I made fun of Bawney's lisp. Shoot me. Like you have never made fun of any political figures on here, and No, it wasn't due to his gayness. "

" shumphreys wrote on Mar 24, 2009 8:26 AM:

" NO Mr. Miller I am saying the passages have nothing to do with tolerance or intolerance"

One more time....They are supposed to be about standing up to criticism, of course they have nothing to do with tolerance.

Anyone else understand what I am getting at? "

" By reading down through these posts it is clear the pastor's point was made. "

" Illinoisbound wrote on Mar 24, 2009 10:14 AM:
" By reading down through these posts it is clear the pastor's point was made. """"

the pastor has a point???? "

" Mr. Miller why did the Rev. say "those words are not tolerant" if he didn't mean it think that they were not tolerant? Those words are also not about standing up for your beliefs or standing up to criticism. There are passages that address standing up to criticism directly. One that comes to mind is "turn the other cheek". Those passages can not be used to justify the persecution of those who do not accept those passages as the gospel. "

" The penalty for objectively analizing and rejecting the rigamarole and threats of the Abrahamic religions is to burn in hell. Woe is me and poor Albert. "

" Sir, I would first like to apologize for a lot of the garbage that has been posted. Even if I have a difference of opinion with you, you did not state anything derogatory, inflammatory, or offensive. You delivered an opinion with a point. As a Christian, I show I am a Christian my spreading my love. I have a bad temper, and know that I must pray to be forgiven for my outbursts and rudeness, but you did nothing but give your peace of mind in a very polite way. Bless you, and may you find peace in your everyday life. "

" Bishop John D'Arcy of the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend said Tuesday that Obama's recent decision to federally fund embryonic stem-cell research brought the U.S. government for the first time "into supporting direct destruction of innocent human life.""""""


pssssssssstt.....hey bishop.....by supporting fertility clinics YOU are also supporting the "direct distruction of innocent human life"....those embryos usually get flushed down the sewer. just more lip service. kind of like the "degrees of abomination" and the homosexuality issues the old creeps are so anxious to harp on all the time. "

" Without critics we would be lost. If nothing was ever criticized, then nothing would be made better, A critic of something can make someone see there is a better way for that thing to be made or work. "

" funny how the christian creeps always have their panties in a twist over someone making a social statement or making an arguement, when the same creeps are first ones to tell millions how they should be living....hmmmm kind of like.....a social statement???? "

" Remember when the Christian fanatics at Focus On The Family, in a stunning display of their vaunted goodness and mercy, ran a web ad calling for people to ask God to rain out Barack Obama's DNC address at Denver's Invesco Field? Remember what happened?
But why were they satisfied with half-measures? Why didn't they just ask God to appear with a thunderclap right over the stadium and endorse the Republicans in a booming Charlton Heston voice? Maybe hurl a couple of lightning bolts for effect?
What was the problem, gang? Not enough "faith" to pull off the job? "

" With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions

The problem with primitive man is, there is no proof of any kind, that primitive man existed.

father bob wrote on Mar 24, 2009 5:10 PM:

" funny how the christian creeps always have their panties in a twist over someone making a social statement or making an arguement, when the same creeps are first ones to tell millions how they should be living

Now there's a tolerant statement.

I like Steve's 2nd paragraph:

Even after this article is posted online, several people will post and begin to tear it apart.

:) "

" Good heavens Medic what planet have you been living on? Have you not read anything about Cro Magnon, Lucy, Austalopithicus (sp) or do you just think they weren't human? "

" Ok Susan, I give up.

I feel sorry for anyone that says, "God bless you" when you sneeze. "

" funny how the christian creeps always have their panties in a twist over someone making a social statement or making an arguement, when the same creeps are first ones to tell millions how they should be living...



We may not share the same view on a lot of religious issues, fb, but you hit the nail on the head with that one, my friend.

Too many "Christians" seem to think it's their duty to tell others how to act, think and live. That attitude is manifested every time a religious based thread comes up on this site.

And look at how they attack anyone, such as shumphries, who comes along and challenges them from an intellectual viewpoint. For the most part, they don't take up her challenges, but merely respond by attacking her with their usual bile and hatred. "

" The problem with primitive man is, there is no proof of any kind, that primitive man existed.


What?

This one should get an award. Perhaps it should win for dumbest post of the day. "

" just wondering wrote on Mar 22, 2009 9:48 PM:

" Well, Susan must be one of those people who think you should only have to follow the rules that you like. You can't pick and choose what you want to follow in the Bible. You have to use the whole book. Question, you ought to know about drivel with as much that comes out of your mouth all the time. "


...do you follow every word of the Bible lol, the Bible says men own women and they can't speak in church and blah blah blah, i take it you don't follow any of the Bible then, me neither really lol "

" Rotty wrote on Mar 23, 2009 9:25 PM:

" ed miller wrote on Mar 23, 2009 5:47 PM:

"Gee Susan, why do you hate Christians so much? Did a Nun kick sand in your face at the beach or something?"

.......

ROTFLMAO!!!!
Excellant, Mr. Miller! "



...perhaps it is because the majority consists of the same type of hypocrits that run the country "

" medic57 wrote on Mar 24, 2009 8:56 PM:

" With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions

The problem with primitive man is, there is no proof of any kind, that primitive man existed.

father bob wrote on Mar 24, 2009 5:10 PM:

" funny how the christian creeps always have their panties in a twist over someone making a social statement or making an arguement, when the same creeps are first ones to tell millions how they should be living

Now there's a tolerant statement


...i think you mean a true statment lol "

" Good heavens Medic what planet have you been living on? Have you not read anything about Cro Magnon, Lucy, Austalopithicus (sp) or do you just think they weren't human?

Yet they still have no incontrovertible evidence that these people existed when they did. I notice when they explain these (people) (and I use that term word) they ALWAYS use words like maybe, if, likely, possibly.

Now those are scietific assurances. "

" medic57 wrote on Mar 24, 2009 8:56 PM:
"Now there's a tolerant statement.

I like Steve's 2nd paragraph:

Even after this article is posted online, several people will post and begin to tear it apart.""""""



i was continuing my statement regarding bishop john d'arcy.....sorry you got disjointed. "

" I say geseundheit (sp) Mr. Miller, whatever that means. Or My that was a good one. Or allergies bothering you today. OR.... I no longer think that someone could blow out their soul with a sneeze, which is where the God bless you came from in the first place. "

" They may not have the dates down to the actual year and time of death, but they know the "people" existed, and the dates, though not exact, are quite close, they know what sort of tools are found, whether signs of fire are found, whether domesticated crops and animals are found, whether they were building complex structures, whether.... There is actually quite alot known about our earliest ancestors. "

" God bless you Susan! :) "

" HerChild wrote on Mar 25, 2009 2:06 PM:
" God bless you Susan! :) """"


the "holy roller" has spoken...LMAO! "

" And may you find your Peace Her Child. "

" Golly, Shumphreys, you know everything there possibly is to know and I admire you so much. "

" geseundheit

German for, Spirits be gone.

Nuf said about you Susan. "

" I think I have finally figured out why the thumpers despise Susan so much. She obviously knows more about their religion than they do. lol! "

" I don't despise anyone, all that does is cause headaches. No one is worth hating. "

" Sorry medic, I really didn't have you in mind when I posted that. I was thinking of the mean spirited Bible thumpers that take over the religious threads, and spend the bulk of the time talking about how bad Susan is.

Take an aspirin and go to bed, my friend. lol! "

" I have gathered quite a list here---
let's see---shumphries, harry potter, father bob,jrussell,the question, Rohn gordon and what?----I have put you on my prayer list. It sounds like you all are very miserable, intolerant people, especially when it comes to Jehovah God our creatorand his family. I will be praying for you,"that the eyes of your understanding will be enlightened so you may know what is the hope of your calling in Christ Jesus". shumphrises you could really use a good size dose of humility. "