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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:09 PM CST
OUR VIEW: Newspapers' role still vital in US

By the JG/T-C Editorial Board
editorial@jg-tc.com

The scandal surrounding Gov. Rod Blagojevich helps prove that newspapers’ impact is not fading.

When the incessant hubbub surrounding Blagojevich ends, newspaper journalists should be among those hailed as helping to expose corruption in government.

After all, that’s our job.

Assuming allegations against him are true, the state and nation will be watching Blagojevich’s expected fall from the pedestal of the state’s highest office for weeks and months to come. One spoke in the wheels of justice is the role of newspapers, if, in fact, journalists are doing their work as they should.

At the Chicago Tribune, reporters and editors did their job, and did it well, as part of the breaking Blagojevich scandal this month.

The Tribune’s probe of alleged misconduct by Blagojevich was separate from the U.S. attorney’s criminal investigation, but, as Editor Gerould Kern wrote last week, the newspaper was asked by officials to delay publication of some stories on the matter. U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald of the Department of Justice lauded the Tribune for its cooperation as he announced the charges against Blagojevich on Dec. 9.

“On occasion, prosecutors asked us to delay publication of stories, asserting that disclosure would jeopardize the criminal investigation. In isolated instances, we granted the requests, but other requests were refused,” Kern told readers in a written statement. “The Chicago Tribune’s interest in reporting the news flows from its larger obligation of citizenship in a democracy. In each case, we strive to make the right decision as reporters and as citizens. That’s what we did in this case.”

With these kinds of investigative stories, it can be a tricky balancing act to juggle considerations for the public’s need to know and law enforcement’s need to have time to put together a case against a defendant. News organizations normally do not work with government agencies that they cover in order to avoid compromising their independence.

In this example, the Tribune staff both served the public well and took a road toward the greater good in doing so.

Sure, we’re kind of tooting our own horn.

The Tribune journalists are our brethren and, as such, are under the same kind of pressures that most print journalists face these days. But, obviously, even Blagojevich understands the influence that newspapers still carry, if he wanted members of the Tribune editorial board fired because they’d been critical of him, as the U.S. attorney alleges.

Many so-called “experts” have heralded the end of the newspaper as the Internet continues to become, some say, practically the axis on which the Earth spins. But Internet-born news sources can’t and don’t do what newspapers do. Television, radio and other media can’t do what newspapers do. The in-depth, measured, objective reporting that newspapers have honed for years cannot be matched by infant media sources and those media without the time to delve into issues for longer than a sound bite allows.

Your daily newspaper also has a tradition dating back decades of providing news that local readers simply can’t get anywhere else. With the growth of the Internet, newspapers can bring their daily work to wider audiences without degrading the reliability and thoroughness that readers can and should expect from journalists.

Illinoisans can hope that good things come out of the bad rap that the state has gotten thanks to the latest governor’s latest woes. One of those good things is a reminder that quality newspapers and print journalists continue to play a vital role in gathering, investigating and distributing news to the average person.

In an ever-changing world, that is one role that will not and cannot be diminished.

— JG/T-C Editorial Board

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Raptor wrote on Dec 17, 2008 8:33 AM:

" Hogwash. Newspapers lost their objectivity long ago. They are dinosaurs. And blatantly biased.

The only reason the JG-TC still exists is because it is a monopoly in the marketplace.

When a Blog, Website or discussion board steps up to be the paper of record with community news, the JG-TC will contract even more to the minuscule usefulness it provides.

The ad content is transitioning to the new medium of the internet. And as the newspaper population ages more advertisers will leave. Real Estate advertising is only in the paper out of habit.

Personally I wouldn't line my bird cage with the JG-TC.

The people as individuals are great folks. But the collective culture which try's to shape the communities views has missed the mark. Shucks, it missed the broad side of the barn.

Thanks for this forum though. Isn't America wonderful. "

Becky wrote on Dec 17, 2008 12:58 PM:

" Wow Raptor, tell them how you really feel. If newspapers are so antiquated, why are you bothering with them at all? "

Read all over wrote on Dec 17, 2008 1:59 PM:

" I'm trying to remember when the JG-TC last investigated or uncovered anything. If anyone knows, please share. "

Mike P wrote on Dec 17, 2008 4:21 PM:

" The tribune failed to comply with demands to fire editorial staff, because they ruffled the feathers of politicians. This paper counting this action as a resounding sense of brotherhood to fellow journalists, is beyond laughable. The tribune filed for bankrupsy, just prior to this story breaking. Big papers are dropping daily delivery.

This Our View is quite possibly the most out of touch piece this paper has run in quite some time. Completely ignorant of well known realities is par for this put put course. What have you done for this area lately? When was the last time relavent questions were asked and reported in any submission by this paper? Glorified stenographers, and journalists are not in the same universe. These visions of self importance, fullfillment and place, are sifted through the same sand your heads have long been burried to the shoulders in. If truely inspired by these brave stands representing democracy, channel those emotions to effectively reporting local news, and asking relavent questions. Stop reporting verbatem local leaders released statements, and minutes to board and council meetings, and get involved in representing the people on broad issues that impact them. Journalists are curious story tellers, not parrots and tape recorded one sided information providers. "

Lostit wrote on Dec 17, 2008 5:31 PM:

" @ Read all over
Reynolds tried to make noise about the city council practice room. Guess it worked, the lake paradise hunters made sure of that. "

Lostit wrote on Dec 17, 2008 5:50 PM:

" It's sort of sad from a nostalgic point of view, but the newspaper industry is dead as we know it. There will always be a place for journalism and organization of information, but the medium itself and most of the big companies associated with it are doomed whether they know it or not. This sort of self-agrandizing rhetoric won't change that inevitability. The fact is nobody under the age of 35 gets their news from newspapers that are physically made of paper. If there is demand for the sort of deliberate rumination and writing that this article speaks of, it will be met online. If you don't believe me, try to find a big newspaper that's still expanding readership, or even making money. Now do the same for online news sources. The idea that everything under the sun except newspapers is subject to change is naive at best. "

just wondering wrote on Dec 17, 2008 5:55 PM:

" I wonder who they are trying to convince. Us or themselves. "

Mike P wrote on Dec 17, 2008 6:24 PM:

" Goldenrod had his wings clipped, I mean "retired" shortly after that public exchange. Thanks for thirty plus years, your "Retired". The Decatur office, had a few budget cuts, I mean "retirements" for the new fiscal year as well. "

Rotty wrote on Dec 18, 2008 1:04 AM:

" Newspapers' role still vital in US

.......

Damn straight!
Where else can one catch the comics on a daily basis?
LOL! "

Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 18, 2008 10:01 AM:

" At the Chicago Tribune, reporters and editors did their job, and did it well, as part of the breaking Blagojevich scandal this month.

This was about the only good statement that came out of this article. How many major scandals have been brought to light because of the investigative reporters and editors of some of the major newspapers in this country just in the last 35+ years?

As for newspapers as a print media, Im afraid that due to the internet it is dying a quick painful death. I hate to see this since I have been unable to find anything that cleans my car windows as good as yesterdays paper. "

Rotty wrote on Dec 18, 2008 12:54 PM:

" Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 18, 2008 10:01 AM

"I hate to see this since I have been unable to find anything that cleans my car windows as good as yesterdays paper."

.......

Excellant Post, Charlie!
LOL! "

Raptor wrote on Dec 18, 2008 2:02 PM:

" Hi Becky: I did sort of let loose didn't I. I'm sorry if I offended anybody.

To answer your question why I read the newspaper is for this forum and the community news and views.

My point is that the medium is changing.

Any successful blogger could open a community news and views blog that could cover local issues and take news and advertising business away from an existing newspaper, if that was a business they chose to engage in.

That is way different than the 'ole printing press.

This forum is informative for me because it helps keep a pulse on the local values, likes and dislikes, and views on our different institutions, particularly government.

This is the new coffee shop. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 18, 2008 2:18 PM:

" There is one other aspect/advantage of print media that television,radio and computer media don't offer and that is the "written public record" that is unchangeable. WILL AM had an interesting discussion a week or so ago about the White House web site and how they go in and just update news releases to "better fit" the current state of the situation, or to better present the information they want presented. They delete words, change words to alter meaning, etc. Only if someone takes the initiative to print out a report with a date and time stamp on a regular basis can you see what and when changes were made. I would also miss the comics, it is the best part of my morning routine. "

oldschool wrote on Dec 19, 2008 12:52 PM:

" I always felt that if you are constantly reminding folks of a certain status one holds in life then you are either...#1...insecure...or..#2 not quite the player one thinks they are....or...#3 BOTH "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 19, 2008 8:23 PM:

" OUR VIEW: Newspapers' role still vital in US
-----------
Ah...no it's not. The evidence has be pretty clear on that point and even if print media has been around since Johannes Gutenberg.

When enterprise, any enterprise, faces sustainability issues, their true nature tends to come out. Ya know kinda like "death throes" like with charges of bias in the political arena, and or poor/limited reporting (there's got a be a reason why The National Enquiry gets better scoops than the establishment newspapers now), huge papers (NYT and ChiTrib) facing bankruptcy, and so forth as of late.

Ah, but what does somebody from Hicktown U.S.A. know anyway?

But maybe, just maybe, the editorial board might want to investigate what a guy named Christensen at Harvard has observed concerning the running of businesses and/or technological innovation. Maybe pay careful attention to terms like the S-Curve, value creation, and disruptive and sustaining technological innovation. People in the newspaper business trying to earn a living might also want to pay particular attention to the tactic of "downward market(ing)" or "downward mobility".

And that'll be $250/hr consulting fee. Ah, keep it. It's almost Christmas anyway and I get bored. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:22 AM:

" And that'll be $250/hr consulting fee. Ah, keep it. It's almost Christmas anyway and I get bored. "

Shouldn't that be .25 Neo? lol! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:46 AM:

" (OUR VIEW: Newspapers' role still vital in US)

......says the JG/T-C Editorial Board as they go whistling by the financial grave yard.

And now, the Federal bailout for print media in:

.....3.....2.....1...... "

Raptor wrote on Dec 20, 2008 10:26 AM:

" Howdy Neocon: I do enjoy the concept of disruptive technologies. As you are well aware the internet has been a disruptive technology for the newspaper industry as well as the brick and mortar retail industry.

It is satisfying for me to see the changes. However not so much for the guy who looses their job and is unable to adapt to the change.

Thanks for waiving your consulting fee. May the Holiday's bring you especially good cheer. "

The Question wrote on Dec 20, 2008 10:59 AM:

" When the major newspapers go, the last of responsible American journalism goes with them. The real news on the internet and TV originally comes from newspaper newsrooms, you know. And no, sorry, bloggers in their PJs aren't going to pick up the slack.
Smaller community papers will last longer. Grandma wants little Ashley's baton-twirling photo in the local paper where the community will see it. She could post it on a website, but nobody would bother to look. "

Mike P wrote on Dec 21, 2008 4:18 PM:

" This is the same local paper that made various attempts to make questionable news coverage calls, in the last year and a half. Noting them specificly, won't get past the censors axe. One involved questionable respect and persistence, to get a moving front page shot, being faced with demands to leave. Another, was applying for credentials, and sending a non reporter politician, of another flavor, to an event that wound up being even more historic, than it was at the time it was held. That event could be cited as increasingly historic in the future. This paper covered it as a joke, which has many possible undertones, and again questionable respect or ethics implications.

In their view they jump from band wagon to band wagon, in constant atempts to feign their own relavence. Most of their Our Views don't effectively grasp the issues they momentarily hoist up, and claim to espouse. The role of the newspaper, and the term still vital in US, are not understood, by the collective who felt this is how they fit into another story completely.

This is par for the Our View six hole mini golf course. They rarely get it, and its making news, so lets make portions of it momentarily Our View, filler editorials. Even the Our View, is a misunderstood, and therefore misleading to readers term that gets over used, in completely fly by night band wagon hopping fashions. I translate Our View to mean; our thoughts of momentary passing fancy, about something that made news, and fell prominently to our laps to seem relavent with. This one regular presentation and the focus they place on constant attempts to present themselves as being in touch and relavent, lends to them fully understanding they aren't. They know they have a monopoly on covering this area, and hope simply presenting a collective view, is sufficient to account for actually researching, understanding, reporting, and informing the public. They feel these pieces, absolve them of any further responsibility of informing to any further degree, the public they serve.

True role, and vitality value, often coincide with understanding and adapting to legitamately striving to make a transformation that is goaled to not convince others, of the values, they hold, but to have others come to the conclusion on their own, these folks get it, are doing a service to informing the community effectively, and present unbiased facts, not sides of stories to jade the information in a direction they so desire. "

Dottedline wrote on Dec 21, 2008 5:07 PM:

" Americans are witnessing the demise of a free, open and varied print press. Those who celebrate that or who find it a basis for cynical humor must not recognize what is being lost. The fourth estate is citizens first-line defense against government (or other social) propaganda and malfeasance, at least when the fourth estate is doing its job well. Republican totalitarians, especially over the past 8 years, and their demagogic minions like Limbaugh and Hannity, et al., have been in the forefront of cheering for the eradication of a free press while also using it for their own propagandist or personal PR purposes. Democratic manipulators, like Blagojevich, attempt to use political power to threaten editors and extort false editorial approval. When I was growing up, even households in which people werent particularly formally educated and were not affluent subscribed to a newspaper, sometimes more than one, and everyone read the paper. Today, few people subscribe or buy a newspaper but that doesnt make them reluctant to deride and threaten newspapers or to confuse a papers editorial/opinion positions with their news reporting. The newspapers have been between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, it is true that newspapers have failed in some very important ways reporters who lied and made up stories, facts, etc.; reporters who were functioning as mouthpieces for government representatives; reporters and editors who socialized with the powerful, blurring their journalistic perspective; reporters and editors who used the newspaper to further their own agendas; reporters who are nothing more than stenographers who report news releases or meeting minutes; and, in my opinion, the biggest ways of all not questioning power, not holding feet to the fire, not demanding facts and doing the hard work of corroborating government statements, providing background and context: doing journalistic WORK in a democracy. At the same time, one must recognize that to say the press is to unfairly lump all together. Judith Miller (NYT) gets lumped with Michael Isikoff (WashPo). The Christian Science Monitor gets lumped with the NY Post, and so on. There IS good investigative journalism, or even just good journalism, but these days it doesnt get any more rewarded than does bad, propagandist journalism or lazy, sloppy junk. In an effort not to offend anyone, newspapers get more and more bland, nicer, saccharine, inane, unimportant and finally, unnecessary. Except for one unsettling fact: they ARE necessary to a democracy. They are critical to a democracy. The fact that they have abrogated their important role and the fact that bullying propagandistic demogogues have fomented newspapers demise does not negate the fact that our nation will be on much weaker footing when there is no legitimate press, are no skeptical reporters, no honest writers standing toe to toe with those holding power to get at the truth, to report in full. Although the EIU student paper doesnt honor its own motto, it is still a great motto: Tell the truth and dont be afraid. The further extension of that, however, is what reporters and editors dont do enough of: FIND the truth, work for it, search for it and then, yes, tell it. Readers have the other obligation to support newspapers who are doing that, regardless of whether they like what they read about leaders or not. These points are true for local papers as much as for regional or national papers. To those of you who liked the Chicago Tribunes work re. Blagojevich, did you buy the Tribune often or subscribe to it? How many of you buy this local paper you use to post your comments? How many of you buy any newspaper or magazine that actually does the kind of investigative reporting you claim to admire? How do you think they will survive? You actually do have to put your money where your mouth is. It is happening, folks; newspapers are disappearing. First it was mergers and buy-ups; lay-offs and reduced deliveries; closings and bankruptcies. When there are no more newspapers, where will you turn for the news? Without reporters still doing the real work, there would have been no Watergate; the lies from Bush-Cheney would have gone undisclosed. Almost all reporters say they read Drudge, but paradoxically, Drudge gets his material from combing the news publications of the world! CNN, MSNBC, FOX are almost entirely opinion. Blogging is not the same as reporting. Opinion is not the same as reporting. Even our most sacred document, the Constitution, protects our press. Sadly, the demogogues and ignorant non-readers dont even read that document, let alone newspapers. The loss of a free and open press is one of many ways in which Americas foundations are cracking. Unless you make it a perverse practice to dance on graves, think before you celebrate the deaths of Americas newspapers. The current political-press trend is for politicians to stand before a group of reporters and make a statement, taking no questions. That is further effort to control the news and the extent to which we all tolerate it, democracy is further diminished. Who cares anymore? The spirit of the patriots at Concord and Lexington seems to be long gone from the American populace. "

Mike P wrote on Dec 21, 2008 7:54 PM:

" Sometimes failure is the necessary road to needed change. Their abilities to subsist and ignore making various changes, does little for them actually achieving the prominence any business or public position, should aspire to. Newspapers have long held the keys to deciding their own fates, and failed to grasp, what their role actually is in our society. Voids created by failures, will be filled, by groups that grasp the core values newspapers of many varieties have long ago typically shed.

This paper, as I long have said, has every opportunity to be a local must read. Even in the age of internet, and a shrinking world, this paper monopolizes the local news, information and advertizing coverage market. Only them becoming an openly unbiased public information source, will cause their subscription rates to see the maximum returns in possibilities and opportunities that exist in this market of one. If citizens know they will be informed, and unjaded truth is the source of news and coverage, they will look here first, for first hand information of local importance.

Opportunities to be relavent, have long been right here for the taking. The area this paper encompases, could at any point in time, see circulations gradually triple, advertizing following suit, if not see larger gains, and prominance return.

Supporting failures out of sheer nostalgia, tends to perpetuate them. Until they foster core beliefs, that place the entire public as their audience, which they feel compelled and responsible to represent in open and honest reporting and news coverage, they are completely subject to the fruits of their labors. If they fold, it is completely their lack of understanding of their market, for it happening. The longer they remain less than a must read locally, the more people are left completely on their own, to seek other places to find what they came to depend on local papers for.

I used to read yesterdays Champaign paper, and a hot off the press, 3 am local paper. Much of yesterdays news for some, could be found in todays news provided for this monopolized market.

This papers fate, is and has always been completely in its own hands. Effectively change, adapt, and reform, or place your fate on nostalgia, and hope that is enough to keep a staffed local office, in the business plan of a newspaper conglomerate, based in another state. Bottom lines, drive their decisions, and from the day local presses fell silent, increasing senses of urgency to turning this newspapers realities in another direction, should have taken on various levels of responsibility to determine what those directions are, and what various contributions can make gains on achieving them. When most of what you do, could be duplicated over the phone, or basicly easily done from anywhere in the world, you are effectively leading to eventual cutting of your own positions and jobs even existing locally. Be truely relavent currently, or be relegated to nostalgia, history, and what might have been. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 21, 2008 8:12 PM:

" (The Question- "When the major newspapers go, the last of responsible American journalism goes with them.")

LOL!

oh I sorry...(wiping tears from eyes).....you were serious....

ROFLMAO!!!! "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 22, 2008 7:34 AM:

" " Hogwash. Newspapers lost their objectivity long ago. They are dinosaurs. And blatantly biased.

Just a hunch here, but based on the tone of Raptor, I suspect he/she is someone who watches Fox news 24/7, and probably is a big fan of the "objective" right wing radio commentators too.

And as for the comments about Limbaugh and Hannity, they were right on target. Those two gasbags rant and rave for hours about how biased the main stream media is, all the while twisting everything to fit their agenda. The biggest fibs told by the likes of those two are lies by omission. I guess they're not biased in any way. lol.

However Raptor was correct in his analysis as to the demise of the modern day newspaper. Limbaugh and Hannity's twisted thinking that it's all about left leaning editorials, is flat out wrong, and they know it. It's all about the loss of ad dollars, but that doesn't fit into their agenda very well, so they tell their moronic stories to their lemmings and it works. Magazines are suffering from the same thing, advertising dollar losses. Locally, R R Donnelleys is being effected, thus their latest round of lay offs occurring there.

It is interesting to watch Limbaugh and Hannity try to take credit for the problems the newspapers are having. It's sort of like Limbaugh trying to take credit for Hillary's early success in the primaries with his inane operation chaos, which I might ad went over well with his faithful who actually bought into the idea that he was having a big effect on the election.

Too bad for those two reprobates that America overwhelmingly elected the very person they spent over two years trying to destroy. "

former_reporter wrote on Dec 22, 2008 10:30 AM:

" As a former newspaper reporter, I can tell you that well-researched, fair, balanced, well-written, timely, concise reporting is more difficult than many on this post would have you believe.
It is also a myth that newspapers are struggling because of shoddy journalism and that a sharper product can revitalize the industry.
Lost advertising revenue has everything to do with the industry's problems. Journalistic quality is constantly improving.
It's ok to scoff and disagree with the local editors' assessments of current issues. That's one of a newspaper's functions: to give people food for thought.
Giving people a voice is another function papers serve.
Remember that when they go away. "

Bernie wrote on Dec 22, 2008 1:58 PM:

" If newspapers were doing their job our country wouldn't be in the mess it's in.

What used to be a "Watchdog for the Public" (and boy does the public need a watchdog now more than ever) is now a "Lapdog for the Moneyed Interests". "

Full Boat wrote on Dec 22, 2008 4:32 PM:

" Am I the only one who sees the irony in people posting complaints on this newspapers website about how irrelevant this newspaper is in the Internet age? If its so irrelevant, why are you wasting your time reading this website and commenting on it? Also humorous is griping about how biased this newspaper is even though it posts all of your essays trashing the paper. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 22, 2008 4:50 PM:

" Also humorous is griping about how biased this newspaper is even though it posts all of your essays trashing the paper.

------------

Most of the trashing come from BlueDogDemocrat and he whines about everything anyway. He's having a hard time accepting the election results too. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 22, 2008 7:48 PM:

" Ignore Harry Larry Potter, folks. He's a wittle gwumpy-wumpy today.

You see, he challenged me to a little question-and-answer tete-a-tete on the New Deal thread, and well........it wasn't pretty.

Poor ole Harry Larry Potter folded like a cheap suit after the very first question. LOL

I'm sooooooo embarrassed for him. *snicker*

ROFLMAO! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 22, 2008 7:55 PM:

" OH NO!

LIBERAL HEART-ACHE!

The favorite fake "news" source for all the moonbat Left-loon wackos in here is in trouble!

*** The Huffington Post Slammed for Content Theft ***

This is going to make the three Liberal Stooges; Harry, Question, and Fat-headBob very sad.

LOL "

oldschool wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:11 AM:

" "NEWS-FLASH".....TO " "

oldschool wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:42 AM:

" "NEWS-FLASH".....TO "Harry Potter"...
With Limbaugh and Hannity, they have NEVER claimed to be unbiased in their conservative views....period. Any listener of these shows know exactly what they are going to hear going into the program. The difference between them and the "main stream media" is this...The "main stream media" trys to portray it's self as unbiased....lol....but it is not. Left or right they carry an agenda that is not objective or truthfull to their so called purpose and profession. Limbaugh and Hannity are true to their purpose, profession and views and are not pertinent to you rants....they have nothing to hide and don't try to hide...the "mainstream media" does and is failing miserably in conceiling it's bias. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:50 AM:

" I hate to tell you this BDD BUT if you have to explain to people that and why you won, you have actually lost. "

ed miller wrote on Dec 23, 2008 9:23 AM:

" Hey Potter, Hannity and Limbaugh are COMMENTATORS not reporters. They are supposed to have an agenda. There are just as many on the liberal side. If you don't like them, don't tune in. It's that easy. Stop whining about it in every post. Not everyone in the world is gonna share your views. Thank God. "

Raptor wrote on Dec 23, 2008 9:39 AM:

" Harry Potter: You are quite correct in that I watch Fox News and listen to Limbaugh. I'm not a Koolaid drinker though.

I have more in common with the values they espouse. Individual freedom, personal responsibility, personal relationships, less government and lower taxes to name a few.

I try to avoid personal attacks on people and try to consider their ideas from their point of view, it is important for me to not criticize, condemn or complain and therefore not cloud my judgment. Although we all have human tendencies.

I look forward to the opportunities the new administration will present. There is a much greater likelyhood of FutureGen now than would have been had McCain been elected. And the much needed road construction projects should put money in the pockets of local folks too.

I don't understand how we can afford those things though. If we print money we get inflation and the value of the dollar declines. If we borrow the money from China we incur more debt and the dollar declines.

Collectivism and socialism are not systems that bring out the best in people in my opinion. Capitalism seems to get more people fired up.

And I do enjoy the irony of this discussion taking place on a forum which I criticized as biased and obsolete. Human foibles. "

jrfan wrote on Dec 23, 2008 1:04 PM:

" And now, the Federal bailout for print media in:

.....3.....2.....1...... "

Actually this has already began. Queb World, the worlds 3rd largest printer received a $1 billion bail out, back when bail outs weren't cool. 6 months ago. "

The Question wrote on Dec 23, 2008 1:12 PM:

" Here's the kind of insight you get from Fox News.
Brit Hume prediction from a 1995 interview: "The Internet is an interesting phenomenon. My sense of it is that in 10 years, or 15 perhaps, we'll all be saying, 'Hey, you remember the Internet?' And we'll all laugh about it.'" "

The Question wrote on Dec 23, 2008 1:15 PM:

" Ode to Sean Hannity
by John Cleese

Aping urbanity
Oozing with vanity
Plump as a manatee
Faking humanity
Journalistic calamity
Intellectual inanity
Fox Noise insanity
Youre a profanity
Hannity. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 23, 2008 1:17 PM:

" Raptor wrote....

"As you are well aware the internet has been a disruptive technology for the newspaper industry as well as the brick and mortar retail industry."

"It has been for the brick and mortar retail industry, really? Since when? I wasn't aware of that (being facetious).

Ohhhhh, you mean since Kresge's changed into the discount retailer K-mart and then almost disappeared, being supplanted by Wal-mart? Or do you mean maybe Woolworth's, and Montgomery Ward, and Lord & Taylor disappearing before the internet was in/barely in existence?

Why did Wal-mart just about do in K-Mart? K-mart was a discount retailer too ya know. Wal-mart CREATED VALUE by not only buying in bulk but by developing one of the best distribution "open-bay systems a value network in retailing. K-mart's shriveled up.

As for the local newspaper, advertising as "the former_reporter" pointed out, or the internt has never has been the problem. As Alfred P. Sloan from GM knew back in the '20's, dealing with technological innovation like interchangeable parts and mass production, innovation is always occurring; the problem occurs when your business model doesn't change.

With your business model you either create value or parish...kind of like with Ford, Chrysler, and GM. Oh, but I forgot though. The govt's gonna keep them around on our dime so they can still produce vehicles that nobody wants to buy/drive! Silly me.

As for what the local newspaper, or any other news paper for that matters should do, that'll be $250/hr.

By the way "former_reporter", you wrote "Journalistic quality is constantly improving".

Prove it. Give me at least three metrics that reaffirm your assertion.

I won't hold my breath. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 23, 2008 2:53 PM:

" Dottedline wrote...

"When there are no more newspapers, where will you turn for the news? "

Hummm...let's think. As Winnie the Pooh would say...think-think-think...

(as 2 seconds has elapsed) I'll turn to Deutsche Welle, Asia Online, Wall Street Journal On-line, BBC, Youtube, Google, Newsmax, The American Conservative, Congressional Quarterly, NRA.org, various numerous sources through the Drudge Reports, UK Guardian, C-Span, UPI, CBN, CNN, CNET TV, Forbes, AP, Reuters, WorldNet Daily, ScienCENTRAL, The Christian Science Monitor, Bloomberg, AlterNet, LinkTV, Barron's, Sky News, and all available online or through various streaming-online links like wwitv.com, tvchannelsfree.com, wfitv.com, and beelinetv.com, just to name a few from hundreds.

Do I need to list more or do you need to re-think your question, Dottedline?

So why is it we need to read the liberally biased LA Times, Sun Times and New York Times again? "

father bob wrote on Dec 23, 2008 3:21 PM:

" NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 23, 2008 2:53 PM:
"So why is it we need to read the liberally biased LA Times, Sun Times and New York Times again? """""

um.....maybe you might be a liberal who likes to read...you know, as in print material, newspapers, books...that sort of thing that requires thought and effort. "

Mike P wrote on Dec 23, 2008 3:47 PM:

" Whats ironic, is the local newspaper having a public comments forum, when it only likes certain issues to face open public comments. This format, is possibly the best, I have encountered. It is just a disclaimer, and teather loosing away, from being a real public service to this area. Comments posted here, are not the responsibility of this newspaper.

It is an open public forum. It needs counters, openly tracking the number of times an article is viewed. Online advertizing, is usually a counter driven mechanism. Once an article is up, add to it, correct and update, but leave it an intact thread. Note changes, and note them properly. Not that this is purlitzer stuff, but someone may refference what has been placed online as public record, and sometimes they may be citing something that gets completely deleted.

Perhaps some online 101, needs a team building class presented on it. Basic online ethics, and forum hosting, need to be studied.

Strive to do it right, or shut it all down. Pull the plug. If it isn't an open public comments forum, it is wasting someones time, to approve or censor every post. Perhaps they could outsource those tasks to Iran, where they belong. If it is subject to comment opinion approval, it isn't a free exchange of thoughts and ideas.

They prohibit an open free exchange of comments on local issues and topics, but manage to see the Newspapers' role still vital in US. Thats a pretty big irony. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 23, 2008 5:39 PM:

" Advertisements contain the only truths to be relied on in a newspaper.

-Thomas Jefferson "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 23, 2008 6:56 PM:

" (fat-headbob - "um.....maybe you might be a liberal who likes to read...you know, as in print material, newspapers, books...that sort of thing that requires thought and effort)

I'm afraid, dear fat-headbob, that Liberals require nothing more than emotion.

Far removed from thought and effort; emotion-fueled Liberals assume their natural role of mindless drones as they devour the over-simplified dumbed-downed platitudes of corrupt inexperienced cult-of-personalities.

"Hope and Change!"

"Yes We Can!"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.

-Adolf Hitler "

injustice85 wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:11 PM:

" newspapers or tv news doesn't matter when it all comes from the same place, local news is about the only upside because all the national news just plagues the mind "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 23, 2008 9:10 PM:

" Father Bob wrote...

um.....maybe you might be a liberal who likes to read...you know, as in print material, newspapers, books...that sort of thing that requires thought and effort. "

-------

Newspapers are written at grade school reading levels. So, Father Bob, are you saying that liberals like to read at a grade school reading levels?

I dunno...I'm thinking that's what your saying....

ROFLMAO! "

The Question wrote on Dec 23, 2008 9:16 PM:

" Which "news" channel pundit laughed with delight at the idea of Obama being assassinated? Can you guess? "

medic57 wrote on Dec 23, 2008 9:29 PM:

" The Question

Just remember, in 1975 Bill Gates and his friend got kicked out of their garage apartment because they couldn't make rent.

Anyone here remember Unix and Gopher? "

The Question wrote on Dec 23, 2008 10:58 PM:

" Meds, by 1995 it was quite clear that the internet was going to change the world forever -- to everybody except that Fox News creep Brit Hume. Good thing they retired that nasty fossil. "

Full Boat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 2:41 AM:

" Mike P, are you saying you have actually been censored on this website before? Do they even censor comments? I find that hard to believe. I do not know how their archives work, but I bet you could go through the on line archives and find enough of your tirades to fill a book. I am sure reporters and columnists have space limits, but you seem to have as much room to rant and rave as you could possibly want, without having to go to all the trouble of building an audience from scratch by starting your own website. You have been given a pulpit and full congregation but all you do is whine about how no one listens to you and how corrupt this paper is. All this while still being anonymous. Sounds like a pretty cushy setup to me. Even if they do censor comments, I am sure it is because of liable reasons.

By the way I do not disagree that this paper could do more investigative stuff. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 24, 2008 8:25 AM:

" " Which "news" channel pundit laughed with delight at the idea of Obama being assassinated? Can you guess? "

----------------

Who cares? Get a life. "

Raptor wrote on Dec 24, 2008 9:16 AM:

" Perhaps what we need is the Fairness Doctrine. Is one side getting more "press" than the other? Is the market place correcting the problem itself?

While we're at it let's get Card Check.

But I digress.

I do want to thank Bill Lair for the article. And I appreciate all the posters who share their ideas. We are lucky to have this forum. Even if we trash the JG-TC, we should make a point to support the advertisers. "

The Question wrote on Dec 24, 2008 11:45 AM:

" "Who cares? Get a life."
---
Struck a nerve, eh, Neo? As you know, it was Liz Trotta on Fox News who laughed with delight at her own suggestion that Obama be assassinated.
Is that what you think your favorite "news channel's" mission is? Sounds more like filthy fascist propaganda than news, doesn't it? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 12:22 PM:

" The problem with the JG-TC, is the fact that, other than Bill Lair, what other reporter/editor/columnist/pundit/novelist/writer/whatever on the paper's staff, is anything OTHER than Left to Far-Left in their political views?

Where's the balance?

Where's the "spirit" of the Fairness Doctrine? (big eye-roll)

Don't even bother to answer. The truth is self-evident. "

The Question wrote on Dec 24, 2008 12:57 PM:

" This just in. The "Fox Business Channel" says "some people" are even "questioning whether we're in a recession," because one online store is having a banner year.
That's just the kind of insightful, honest reporting you can expect from anything named Fox. Fox does not inform the members of its moron audience of anything. It manipulates them, deliberately and crudely. "

The Question wrote on Dec 24, 2008 1:10 PM:

" Bush and the Republicans have waged a long campaign against journalism denouncing it, infiltrating it, faking it, extorting it, distorting it, planting prostitutes in it and telling every manner of lie about it.
Spring-boarding off right-wing radio ranting, in 1996 a propaganda TV news channel, Fox News, became the Pravda of the Bush White House.
Even Bush Press Secretary Scott McClellan admitted that corporate media reporters had willingly rolled over for the Bush lies that caused war.
The "rescue" of Private Jessica, the "enemy attack" slaying of Pat Tillman, the fall of Saddams statue, the WDMs all were lies planted in the news by the Bush administration.
To fake news, they added fake journalists. They bribed columnists. Local TV stations aired propaganda generated by Bush PR hacks that the stations pretended had been prepared by real reporters.
The $200-an-hour male prostitute named "Jeff Gannon," a/k/a James Guckert, was able to get daily access to the White House press briefings for two years while working for a hack right-wing "news service."
"You couldn't find a more revealing measure of the state of the dominant media today than the continuing ubiquitous presence - on the air and in print - of the very pundits and experts, self-selected message multipliers of a disastrous foreign policy, who got it all wrong in the first place," Bill Moyers said. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 24, 2008 3:07 PM:

" Neocon

Please point me to the article that shows anyone laughing at the idea of anyone being assasinated. Even Mike Huckabee has told Republicans that they should pray for Obama as they would any other president. He will be president after all, that will not change, he needs all the help he can get to right this country. Although I am not really a Democrat, I hope he does a good job as President. "

mickeygarlock wrote on Dec 24, 2008 3:10 PM:

" I'm trying to remember when the JG-TC last investigated or uncovered anything. If anyone knows, please share. "

Probably the boat accident I was involved in on Lake Mattoon in 1975. Harry Reynolds blamed it squarely on us, although it was just an accident, no ones fault, just an accident. "

The Question wrote on Dec 24, 2008 6:28 PM:

" Here are the details, Meds. During a live interview on May 25, Fox News contributor Liz Trotta "jokingly" wished for the assassination of Sen. Barack Obama.
She was asked her opinion of some controversial comments made by Sen. Hillary Clinton about Robert F. Kennedys June 1968 assassination, which Trotta described by saying that, "some are reading [it] as a suggestion that somebody knock off Osama."
Anchor Bill Hemmer quickly corrected Trotta, having noticed that she had said "Osama" when she meant "Obama." At this point, Trotta said, "Obama. Well... both if we could!" Trotta then laughed delightedly.
She later gave an evasive, half-hearted apology for her disgusting comment, and is still employed by Fox News. "

The Question wrote on Dec 24, 2008 6:31 PM:

" You think this is a LEFTIST newspaper, Doggy Doh? A newspaper that provided a non-journalist, a local Republican Party agent, with press credentials and sent him to the Democratic National Convention to write worthless attack pieces? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 24, 2008 9:24 PM:

" Struck a nerve, eh, Neo?

----

Ah nope. Who cares? Get a life. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 24, 2008 10:16 PM:

" "Please point me to the article that shows anyone laughing at the idea of anyone being assasinated. Even Mike Huckabee has told Republicans that they should pray for Obama as they would any other president."
----------------------------
I don't recall any, but then there again I don't care either. Besides I don't categorize Huckabee as a conservative either. Ya know you need to get out of this holy than now attitude if you're a republican. The left said lies like we're intentionally bombing women and children, taking away civil liberties, and telling everyone how bad the economy was, and now their "messiah" is gonna be in the Whitehouse. So wise up.
---------------------------
And point out to me the article where the liberal press condemned the hanging of Sarah Palin in effigy.
--------------------
"I hope he does a good job as President. "
------------------
I don't. Let him figure it out on his own or fall on his face. He won't of course figure it out and that's fine by me. Maybe Obama's financial guru Franklin Raines will figure it out for him...he's the one that's brought the economy to where it is today.

Remember that in 2001 GW Bush wanted to reform Freddie and Fannie and Democrats blocked it.

In 2003/2004 republican Chris Shays brought up the discrepancies with the mortgage/lending industry. Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, Chris Dodd, and Greg Meeks lauded Franklin Raines (Obama's chief financial advisor) for doubling the profit Freddie and Fannie made and of course you see what's happened with his economic guidance.

And we've been hearing for 8 years how bad the economy is from the liberals/democrats even though we've had full employment and positive growth GDP until this past year. It's only tanked recently because of the mortgage crisis because of the democrats. So bring on the depression!

Merry Christmas! "

medic57 wrote on Dec 25, 2008 8:42 AM:

" Question

As much as I enjoy, (yes, enjoy) watching Fox News, she should have been fired that night. She's lucky the Secret Service and FBI didn't come calling as they don't take lightly jokes about killing a president. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 25, 2008 10:34 AM:

" (Question Moe wrote - You think this is a LEFTIST newspaper?)

Uhm....yeah,Moe. Most sane people can see that it is. But hey, name the "journalists" at this rag who aren't Left-leaning.

(A newspaper that provided a non-journalist.....)

OH NO! *GASP* A NON-JOURNALIST! *shudder* LOL!

Journalist = Self important Liberal Hack.

Non-Journalist = All others. LOL!

The mainstream media (whose "journalists" are predominantly registered Democrats and Left-leaning hacks) write attack pieces that are pawned off as legitimate unbiased news reports on a daily basis. So stop your whining, Moe. LOL!

Oh and, your Messiah's incoming administration (The Chicago Way) promises to be one of the most corrupt teams to ever take the office, Moe. So corrupt, in fact, that even your highly esteemed Left-loon "journalists" are having a difficult time ignoring the stench. (Oh my! The smell of Blago-Rahma just won't go away!) LOL!

You had better toughen-up girly-Moe cause you ain't seen nuttin' yet!

LMAO! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 25, 2008 10:43 AM:

" Oh and Question Moe,

Have yourself a Merry, Just-Another-Non-Descriptive-Cold-Atheistic-Non-Believing-December-Day!

And A-Depression-Era-SoupKitchen-BreadLine-Miserable-Liberal-New Year!

Or as you say: "BAH! HUMBUG!"

LOL! "

The Question wrote on Dec 25, 2008 11:58 AM:

" You're right, Meds. And if Obama had been a Republican, she would have been fired instantly, and the Secret Service would have come calling.
But then, no one ever jokes about killing Republicans on Fox News, do they? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:46 PM:

" Honestly BDD Dec. 25 is a great day, the day the days start getting perceptibly longer after the winter solstice Dec. 21. The day traditionally celebrated since ancient times. Spring is just around the corner.You know if you would knock that chip off your shoulder you might learn to appreciate this great world of ours and enjoy life a little. "

The Question wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:47 PM:

" You're the one who claims that the reporters at this newspaper are all leftists, Doggy Doh. Why don't you cite some evidence beyond the usual meaningless hot gas that you spray forth? I have cited the paper's unprofessional sponsorship of a Republican hack job on the Democratic National Convention. Now where is your evidence? "

The Question wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:58 PM:

" Here's an interesting idea for an article. The ever-incompetent Bush just reversed a pardon he had granted. That should be a fascinated legal precedent. It would mean that Obama could also reverse any pardons granted by Bush, wouldn't it? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 25, 2008 6:22 PM:

" Au contraire, Question Moe. I asked you to name the "journalists" at this rag who are NOT Left-leaning.

My evidence? Cite the negative coverage this rag ran on Obama during the campaign. Or for that matter- ever.

During the campaign I recall, HUGE photos and large articles expounding the Messiah while McCain's coverage consisted of tiny pictures and minimal coverage.

Where was the coverage of Obama's ACORN voter registration fraud? In nearby Indianapolis alone, after ACORN's efforts, 105% OF IT'S POPULATION WAS REGISTERED TO VOTE. And that was hardly an isolated case. Did you happen to see that mentioned in the JG-TC?

And where, oh where, are the editorials that explain the Democrats key involvement in the financial collapse?

The Community Reinvestment Act. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Franklin Raines. Bawney Fwank. Chris Dodd. Maxine Waters. Greg Meeks. Their obstructionism, and their lobbying efforts to block any regulation on these corrupt housing institutions?

Where's the editorial critiques of Obama's blatant lie that his team NEVER HAD ANY COMMUNICATION WITH BLAGO ABOUT THE VACANT SENATE SEAT?

Where's the editorial critiques on the rest of Obama's broken promises and out-right lies?

And again- name the editors at the JG-TC who are NOT Left-leaning? "

gringa wrote on Dec 25, 2008 6:46 PM:

" That really is a first, Question, but when you consider the reason for the reversal, it makes sense. The WH didn't know that the guy's dad had contributed almost $30,000 to the Republican Party just weeks prior to the request for the pardon being submitted. When news of the political contribution was brought to the attention of the WH, the pardon was reversed. Embarrassing, but what else could Bush do under the circumstances?

As to Obama reversing pardons granted by Bush, I doubt if that's possible under law. Bush was only able to reverse it because the *formal pardoning process* hadn't yet been completed. Besides that, Obama is going to have his hands full from Day One. Let's all hope he moves forward. He's not going to have time to look back. "

Rotty wrote on Dec 25, 2008 7:12 PM:

" soapbox shemphreys wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:46 PM:

"You know if you would knock that chip off your shoulder you might learn to appreciate this great world of ours and enjoy life a little."

.......

Pssst.... HYPOCRITE!
LOL!

Take a dose of your own medicine, toots.
Merry Blessed Christmas, Shemp!
LOL! "

medic57 wrote on Dec 25, 2008 7:21 PM:

" Neocon wrote:

--------------------
"I hope he does a good job as President. "
------------------
I don't. Let him figure it out on his own or fall on his face.

So, you want the next president to fail and the country to suffer. Talk about a hypocritical idiot, you want the US to fail, you think this is such a bad country, then read my next post. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 25, 2008 7:53 PM:

" Why don't you cite some evidence beyond the usual meaningless hot gas that you spray forth?
---------------
You're so obtuse it's not even funny here.

How about the surveys that say somewhere around ~80 of "journalists" identify themselves as being leftys or democrats? These 80% are the ones that get to "filter" what gets put into the print news media and the television news media. EEWWW, except for that evil Fox news, yuck, and maybe Forbes and Wall Street Journal.

How many times do you have to open up a New York Times, LA Times, or Newsweek, and watch Keith Uberdumb or(nice hair cut) Rachel MadCow and so forth, to not see the bias?

Less than ~30 years ago most news came via AP and Reuters through pre-internet listservs. The "professional" media got to filter the news through these listservs. And don't forget that there will only 3 television news networks all with democrat/liberal leaning news anchors (Wallace, Rather, Cronkite, Gibson, Couric, Bradley, Cooper, Carole Simpson, Max Robinson, John Chancellor, Frank McGee, David Brinkley, Harry Reasoner, Howard K. Smith, Jennings, Brian Williams, Koppel, Walters, and on, and on, all identified as left leaning/democrats) (Do I need to list the print media hacks too, starting with Paul Krugman) that got/get to filter the news and ultimately manipulate public opinion.

And if you don't think the media manipulates the public maybe you need a history lesson on "Yellow journalism" and "The Gulf of Tonkin", no less.

But Oops, there goes the liberal news "filter" now since the internet's come along. Maybe that's why media folks are so sensitive "to the newspapers vital role" in the US.

Becuase of the internet people are seeing the manpulation, and this is the reason why you leftys are getting all bent out of shape now. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry Potter with a cellphone camera can record events as they happen, without "the (liberal)filter", and upload the recorded events to the internet for all to see, and for all to make their own decisions.

By the way what does it take to be a professional journalist now? The ability to write at the third grade level? I guess 72% of graduating HS seniors (what a pathetic statistic, congrats demo-union teachers!) that graduate fit that bill now don't they?

Or is it the ability not to interject your own bias into the news...well..we already know the answer to that question now don't we? Witness Chris Matthew's and Gwen Ifill's performance during the election cycle.

Finally I'm all for a free and open press, but how about a little fairness? Maybe the Fairness Doctrine's not a bad idea, eh?

Oh...but alas...let's not forget who and why the "fairness doctrine" came about, becuase liberals/democrats couldn't compete in the talk radio arena. As if controllong the print and television media wasn't enough for them toward manipulation of public opinion! "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 25, 2008 7:57 PM:

" " Here's an interesting idea for an article. The ever-incompetent Obama didn't talk with Blago but his people talked with Blago.

AND

" Here's an interesting idea for an article. The ever-incompetent Bill Clinton didn't have sex with that women and then did have sex with that woman. That should be a fascinated legal precedent. It means that sitting Presidents can get away with perjury in front of federal judges. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 25, 2008 8:17 PM:

" It means that sitting Presidents can get away with perjury in front of federal judges. "

You mean like Bush, Cheney and Libby outing a CIA Spook because they didn't like what her husband found out in Africa, the fack that Saddam was NOT trying to buy Uranium, so they fired him and outed her. That was a Treasonous act and should have been prosecuted as such.

By the way, say it again,

Do you want the next President to fail? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 25, 2008 10:29 PM:

" Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist

UCLA Newsroom (12/14/2005) While the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal is conservative, the newspaper's news pages are liberal, even more liberal than The New York Times. The Drudge Report may have a right-wing reputation, but it leans left. Coverage by public television and radio is conservative compared to the rest of the mainstream media. Meanwhile, almost all major media outlets tilt to the left.

These are just a few of the surprising findings from a UCLA-led study, which is believed to be the first successful attempt at objectively quantifying bias in a range of media outlets and ranking them accordingly.

"I suspected that many media outlets would tilt to the left because surveys have shown that reporters tend to vote more Democrat than Republican," said Tim Groseclose, a UCLA political scientist and the study's lead author. "But I was surprised at just how pronounced the distinctions are."

"Overall, the major media outlets are quite moderate compared to members of Congress, but even so, there is a quantifiable and significant bias in that nearly all of them lean to the left," said co‑author Jeffrey Milyo, University of Missouri economist and public policy scholar.

Read the rest here:
http://tinyurl.com/2l87yw "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 25, 2008 11:05 PM:

" You mean like Bush, Cheney and Libby outing a CIA Spook because they didn't like what her husband found out in Africa, the fack that Saddam was NOT trying to buy Uranium, so they fired him and outed her. That was a Treasonous act and should have been prosecuted as such.
----------------------
Yeah, whatever. As always...mindless, baseless, unfounded frivilous hyperbole. Ya got all the answers, but can't solve any problems. Typical.

If indeed all these allegations have merit, contact Durbin and some other corrupt Illinois politician or national (socialist) democrat politician to pursue the allegations, otherwise, get over it. Your messiah's gonna be in office.

-------------------
"By the way, say it again,
Do you want the next President to fail? "
______________________________

What part didn't you understand the first time?

I'm loving it. Low gas prices, everything's on sale. Trying to figure out what European country I wanna go to next year for vacation! Heck I can't wait. Bring on the depression! Enjoy your government cheese and bread lines!

And as a matter of fact, when he's in office, maybe I'll just quit standing at attention when the national anthem's played, like our soon to be president's done. Shoot I'll probably just turn my back in honor of Obama's demonstrated "patriotism".

Maybe I'll burn a flag too..you know kinda like when Obama wouldn't wear a US flag pin 'cause he's been ashamed of the country.

And I think I might just start calling our troops "baby-killers"(paraphrasing Obama) like our soon to be president's done.

How's that for an answer?

Or was Obama's saying/doing all that stuff during the election cycle okay...'cuz boy it got all you nitwits to vote for him, didn't it...huh...hypocrite? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 25, 2008 11:41 PM:

" (the fack that Saddam was NOT trying to buy Uranium)

Wrong on all counts Meds.

-The Intel that stated Saddam was trying to buy uranium came from the British.

And they still stand by it.

From the British Governments 6 month investigation compiled in The Butler Report:

"By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bushs State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that 'The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa' was well-founded."

-And here's what Joe Wilson said in his letter to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee:

"I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa."

-And Valerie Plame was hardly covert.

On March 12, 2006 The Chicago Tribune ran a story with this headline:

Plame's identity, if truly a secret, was thinly veiled.

In the report we find this:

"When the Tribune searched for Plame on an Internet service that sells public information about private individuals to its subscribers, it got a report of more than 7,600 words. Included was the fact that in the early 1990s her address was "AMERICAN EMBASSY ATHENS ST, APO NEW YORK NY 09255."

A former senior American diplomat in Athens, who remembers Plame as "pleasant, very well-read, bright," said he had been aware that Plame, who was posing as a junior consular officer, really worked for the CIA."

Now that's HARDLY COVERT by any stretch of the imagination.

-And the so called "damage" of her "outing" was negligible at best:

On October 27 2005 Bob Woodward addressed that point on Larry King:

WOODWARD: "... They did a damage assessment within the CIA, looking at what this did that Joe Wilson's wife was outed. And turned out it was quite minimal damage. They did not have to pull anyone out undercover abroad. They didn't have to resettle anyone. There was no physical danger to anyone and there was just some embarrassment.

So people have kind of compared -- somebody was saying this was Aldridge James or Bob Hanson, big spies. This didn't cause damage."

-And most importantly, Fitzgerald KNEW that Richard Armitage was the leaker early on in the investigation, and yet Fitzgerald never said a word about it. And what's even more outragous, Armitage was never indicted.

See how that steady diet of Liberal Media propaganda completely distorted the facts in this case, Meds? "

The Question wrote on Dec 26, 2008 6:03 AM:

" What would you say about the reliability of a "news channel" that suggests we may not be having a recession after all? Fox News would prefer that you disbelieve your lying eyes (which see home foreclosures, decimated 401ks, rampant lay-offs, dead sales) and take it on faith that the Chimpanzee in Chief's economic policies are just great.
After Jan. 20, that Fox News viewpoint will change instantly and radically. Suddenly Fox News will see massive problems in the economy and all of them will be Barack Obama's fault.
I'll remind you when that happens. "

Bernie wrote on Dec 26, 2008 8:04 AM:

" One area regarding lack of any real reporting that stands out was the lack of reporting on the graft and corruption rampant on our county board during the purchase of a $300,000 (at most) bank for $600,000....then tearing it down.

More recently, only one side of the Future Gen story is being repoted. (Believe me, THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE.) of course we all want more jobs created, but Future Gen is exactly the kind of business we DO NOT WANT NO MATTER WHAT. When I travel and tell other people (conservatives and liberals alike) that we may be their new home, the response I get is, "Are the people where you live STUPID?"

IF we aren't our newspapaer is, and we deserve more than one choice of papers. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 26, 2008 10:26 AM:

" Chimpanzee in Chief's , huh?
-----------------------------

I guess that means I can wear a Curious George T-shirt with Obama's head on it starting January 21st, eh? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 26, 2008 10:28 AM:

" Suddenly Fox News will see massive problems in the economy and all of them will be Barack Obama's fault.
----------------------------

Yep, you're right, and all because of Obama's Franklin Raines, Obama's financial guru. "

Raptor wrote on Dec 26, 2008 10:31 AM:

" None of us want the President to fail.

Those of us whose views are more conservative will cut the Prez less slack than those who share "progressive" views.

I hope everybody had a terrific Christmas holiday. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:20 AM:

" (NeoCon - "I guess that means I can wear a Curious George T-shirt with Obama's head on it starting January 21st, eh?")

PING!

That's a keeper!

LMAO!!! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:28 AM:

" (I hope everybody had a terrific Christmas holiday.)

We did.

All of us that is, except Question Moe.

He had a dreary; any-ole-December-there-is-no-God-and-this-country-sux-I-really-hate-Bush-but-Obama-will-save-us-from-the-soup-kitchens-and-bread-lines- kinda day.

And I understand that he's going to have a Whiny New Year. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:30 AM:

" (Suddenly Fox News will see massive problems in the economy and all of them will be Barack Obama's fault.)

Oh golly gee Question Moe, I thought everything was The President's fault? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 26, 2008 1:14 PM:

" " None of us want the President to fail.

Those of us whose views are more conservative will cut the Prez less slack than those who share "progressive" views.
-------------------------------------

Speak for yourself, Raptor.

Do I have to remind you of Hillary Clinton holding up the New York Times newspaper just after 9/11 with the heading "BUSH KNEW"? Boy they really rallied around GWB then didn't they?

Besides what are you, a RINO (republican in name only)? We got plenty of those walking around now, WITHOUT A JOB in government.

It's the RINO's that have allowed/allow the liberals to get away with the stuff they get away with. The libs spew their untruths over and over again so much that it becomes the current zeitgeist. And ya'll let 'em get away with it.

So either join the conservatives or just go be a socialist, ah, I mean democrat...... "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 2:32 PM:

" My, my Neocon you have lost it. Do you honestly think that if someone isn't as far right as you are they can't still be a Republican, they are as you put it a RINO? It is that attitude that is sinking the Republican party. If you stick to it you will find yourself going down with the ship! "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 26, 2008 3:01 PM:

" Will they ever tire of sounding like whiny, backbiting old ladies, I wonder?

I hope not, TQ. They make for some pretty cheap entertainment. Especially the biggest huckster of them all, Bluey. lol... "

The Question wrote on Dec 26, 2008 3:13 PM:

" That's right, Neo. Purge more of the faithless "RINOs" from your Republican Party. Your simian savior Bush is leaving office with a 27 percent approval rating, one of the lowest in history. That's means everyone but mindless GOP zombies have finally seen what Bush and Cheney and the neocons really are.
Keep it up. Yer doin' a heckuva job, Neo! "

medic57 wrote on Dec 26, 2008 3:18 PM:

" The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa' was well-founded."

They found it all too, right? How about the trailer that Colin Powell said was a Chemical Weapons Lab?

That's what happens whe the 3 leaders of the country are named Bush, Colin and Dick. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 8:53 PM:

" Medic-(They found it all too, right?)

Found what? The British only said Saddam was trying to acquire it.

(How about the trailer that Colin Powell said was a Chemical Weapons Lab?)

It was bad Intel.

And last time I checked Powell was a big Obama fan. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:05 PM:

" Hmmmmmmmm

After disappearing for a couple of days;

Harry Larry Potter and Fat-headBob BOTH show up today at about the same time.

AMAZING! LOL

Now then, accusations of paranoia from Harry Larry Potter/Fat-headbob in ......3......2........1 "

The Question wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:52 PM:

" And of course, Obama spending Christmas vacation in his home state must have sinister, subversive undertones. Just what is he REALLY doing there? Anybody who isn't a commie liberal socialwhatsis or a treacherous RINO can see how dangerous that situation is!!! "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:39 PM:

" "My, my Neocon you have lost it. Do you honestly think that if someone isn't as far right as you are they can't still be a Republican, they are as you put it a RINO? It is that attitude that is sinking the Republican party. If you stick to it you will find yourself going down with the ship! "
----------------
No, no, no shumphreys, I haven't lost it. I'm in my prime, just hitting my stride, with great things yet to come.

No, my attitudes not the attitude sinking the republican party.

The attitude that is sinking the republican party is republicans trying to be a "light" version of the jack@ss party. Following the party of no new ideas.

But that's okay, cuz you know what?

The best thing for the republican party now is a dumocrat party in power in the house, the senate, and the Whitehouse.

Pass the popcorn as I can't wait to watch y'all "eat your own young", like you all always do, and have done as of late in California, Michigan, and dare I say...Illinois?

LMAO! "

Tom Andres wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:41 PM:

" "...his home state..." I could have sworn he was from Illinois. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:44 PM:

" It was bad Intel.

Since 2003 there's been nothing but bad intel. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:53 PM:

" Geez... The Question...first you're agreeing with me then your complimenting me. Stop it...I'm blushing.
-------------
But alas.... my work is never done.... correcting the prevarications and lies of the evil godless socialists, as you wrote, "Your simian savior Bush is leaving office with a 27 percent approval rating, one of the lowest in history.

Well, well, well.... what curious factiod do we have here from the WSJ?....."President Jimmy Carter posted the worst-ever presidential Harris Poll approval ratings in July 1980, when they struck 22%."

See:http://tinyurl.com/8zcpyx

And I wonder what Curious George Odrama's approval rating will be once he's sucked us into economic oblivion, maybe lower than Blago's 4%?

Using a classic retort by BDD, "have a dreary, any-ole-December-there-is-no-God-and-this-country-sux-I-really-hate-Bush-but-Obama-will-save-us-from-the-soup-kitchens-and-bread-lines- kinda day". "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:57 PM:

" "And last time I checked Powell was a big Obama fan. "

Powell is the worst kind of RINO, using is ties for political gain, just like what the socialists, ah, I mean the democrats, do in Chicago. The political birth place of President Curious George. "

The Question wrote on Dec 27, 2008 6:06 AM:

" "After disappearing for a couple of days; Harry Larry Potter and Fat-headBob BOTH show up today at about the same time."
---
A holiday called "Christmas" intervened, and kept people who actually have families and friends busy, Doggy Doh. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:04 AM:

" (Medic- "Since 2003 there's been nothing but bad intel.")

Oh really Medic?

Because the Intel in 2003 is remarkably similar to the Intel pre-2003, going all the way back to it's origins in the mid 1990's.

Tell me Med's, who was the President during the mid '90s?

Why did THAT President say that Saddam STILL HAD STOCKPILES OF WMD WHEN THAT PRESIDENT LEFT OFFICE?

And why did THAT President's wife confirm that the 2003 Intel was consistent with the Intel from her husbands Administration?

Tell us Meds, who is that President?

Who is that President's wife? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:10 AM:

" (Question- "A holiday called "Christmas" intervened, and kept people who actually have families and friends busy")

You mean that Christian Holiday, Question Moe?

And since you were posting here on Christmas; we can deduce by you're own rationale that:

A) Question Moe has no family

B) Question Moe has no friends

c) That's a real shocker, given your winning personality.

LOL "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:17 AM:

" Oh BTW Question Moe,

Thanks for sticking up for your fellow Stooges, Harry Larry Potter and Fat-HeadBob.

You three certainly are thick as thieves, aren't ya?

It's almost as if you're three into one.

Hey! Maybe I should rename you Three Liberal Stooges, The Liberal Stooge Trinity!

LST!

Rhymes with LSD.

Say, this has numerous possibilities..... LOL "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:42 AM:

" Yer doin' a heckuva job, Neo! "

Now that was funny.... "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:46 AM:

" (Question Moe- "Just what is he REALLY doing there?")

What's Barry Hussein doing there, Moe?

Well for starters he's removed himself from the growing BlagoBama stench.

And secondly Question Moe, he's probably figuring out how he can break even MORE campaign promises without turning any more of you little witless votaries against him.

But I think your doltish discipleship isn't in any danger.

You'll believe any and every lie he tells, won't ya Question Moe? "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 27, 2008 9:52 AM:

" It looks like poor Bluey was so lonesome he had to spend Christmas day pounding away with his inane comments all day trying to get some attention. Did you run your family off too? Poor little Bluey, perhaps it's time for a name change, buddy. lol! "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 27, 2008 12:59 PM:

" Bluey and Neo seem to have formed a mutual admiration society. Can it be true love for those two? lol! "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 27, 2008 1:04 PM:

" The real test will be if Bluey can convince Neo the earth is only 6000 year old. Knowing what a big Palin fan Neo is, I'm sure he believes Sarah's bit about man and dinosaurs living at the same time. lol! How about it Neo, are you buying into Blueys time line ideas? "

medic57 wrote on Dec 27, 2008 7:23 PM:

" Tell us BDD

Who was President when the world trade centers were brought down? Who was president when gas his $4.25 a gallon? Who was president when the economy tanked. Oh, I'm sorry, the economy is really ok, right? "

The Question wrote on Dec 28, 2008 5:28 AM:

" Here's how well Fox News will keep you informed once newspapers die.
On Sept. 10, when economist and author Robert Kuttner said the economy was in crisis, Sean Hannity cut him off. "Oh, stop it. Oh, stop it. This is garbage youre spewing here," the college dropout Hannity ranted. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:14 AM:

" THE LIBERAL STOOGE HARRY LARRY POTTER'S BIG BOUNCY LIST OF EMBARRASSING ADMISSIONS:

Harry Larry's steadfast denial to answer these questions obviously indicates his reluctance to admit that they are all true:

Is Obama going to keep troops in Iraq?

Is Obama not going to tax the windfall profits on Big Oil?

Does Obama support warrant less wire tapping?

Does Obama now admit that Iran is a serious nuclear threat?

Did Obama lie during the campaign when he said Iran DID NOT present a threat?

Did Obama just make hypocrites and fools out of his little anti-war lemming followers by announcing he would nuke Iran if they nuked Israel?

Did Obama go back on his word of "Outside Washington Politics" and "Hope and Change" when he filled the majority of his Admin with former Clintonites?

Looks like Harry Potter's answer to all of these damaging questions about Obama is a resounding YES!

Therefore let us tout The Liberal Stooge Harry Larry's hypocritical admissions FAR AND WIDE!

woop woop woop! nyuk nyuk nyuk!

LMAO "

Raptor wrote on Dec 28, 2008 12:28 PM:

" Neo, I would be most closely associated with Libertarianism. I got a chuckle out of the implication that I am a RINO. I could not support McCain any more than I could support Obama. I do believe that Obama will do more for the State of Illinois than McCain would have.

The problem with the Republican Party is that it has moved to far to the Left. Both sides have been spending fools. At least the Dems know they are Socialists. The Repubs lost site of their values.

It is the conservative values that I most closely relate to. And those values are why I said nobody wants our President to fail. We are Americans and Patriots first. It is my values which help me rise above political sniping.

Personal attacks don't change minds or solve problems. They only cause tensions to escalate.

What is important to me are personal freedom, personal responsibility, lower taxes and less government to name a few of my values.

Involvement in my community is the only way that I know to have an effect on the America that I believe in. Isn't all politics is local? If we want change then we must change it ourselves. Didn't Ghandi say that?

If we want to create jobs shouldn't we create businesses that produce goods and services that people want and need?

No government handouts, just plain old contribution to GDP. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 28, 2008 4:48 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Dec 27, 2008 1:04 PM:
" The real test will be if Bluey can convince Neo the earth is only 6000 year old. Knowing what a big Palin fan Neo is, I'm sure he believes Sarah's bit about man and dinosaurs living at the same time. lol! How about it Neo, are you buying into Blueys time line ideas? "
---------------------------------
OOkkkkaaayyyy...you asked... so here's my answer...

With all due respect to BDD, or whomever, BDD's understanding of the creation versus my understanding of the creation is simply a matter of faith, no more no less, just as it is mine or anyone else.

Where their hominids several hundred thousand years ago? Yeah, God put clues on earth for us to find and we found them.

Where there "big" dinosaurs around then? No.

Where these hominids "man"? No, they did not have the high-order cognitive skills we have today.

Do I think "Mitochondrial Eve" and "Y-Chromosome Adam" who burst onto the scene about 150K years ago and ~60K to ~70K years ago are the biblical Adam and Eve? No.

My bet is with biblical "Adam and Eve" showing up after Cro-Magnon first appeared some ~40,000 years ago. Originating from the same Haplo-group, we, in essence, are Cro-magnon descendants. I'd put bible Adam and bible Eve at about 10,000 B.C plus/minus 5000 years. I could go into detail concerning this estimate but suffice to say that archeologists trace cognitive development through tool usage and evidence of self-expression like cave drawings, wearing shells and beads, and so forth let along through language and writing.

An interesting note, not too long ago DNA analysis was done on Cro-mag bones found in southern England. Researchers traced the Cro-mags DNA directly to a modern Y-descendant living just a few miles from the dig site the bones were found. That's kinda cool.

But I will say this toward both sides of the argument, NO one was around when God said to Adam, "I am" and "you are".

And it's at this profound instance of discernment, God revealing himself to Adam, Adam UNDERSTANDING, and then Adam acknowledging God's status, that matter's most from a basis of faith. So what's the point of arguing the point?

Lastly, I will say this though, Harry. Mankind has walked with dinosaurs, and still does, for a long time. What do you think lizards of various sorts and birds are? "Leftovers" of the dinosaurs. But there again what's the point of arguing the point?

There's more important things to ponder like who will be the conservative nominee for president in 2012!

Romney/Jindahl in 2012!!! "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 28, 2008 5:08 PM:

" Raptor ...

I'm in agreement with 90%.

You also said though..."Personal attacks don't change minds or solve problems. They only cause tensions to escalate."

Yeah, agreed...but once some lines of demarcation have been crossed... there's no going back. And that line was crossing started at 9/11 with all the personal attacks, hatred and lies spewed from the left at GWB, and the hatred and lies that become the zeitgeist for our era.

I personally did not like Clinton's politics but I did not want him to fail nor did I hate him. But after all the things that have been said and done by the left the last few years, personally, let Obama's presidency "crash". "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 5:14 PM:

" (Harry Larry Potter - "The real test will be if Bluey can convince Neo the earth is only 6000 year old.")

I've never said the earth is 6000 years old, Harry Larry.

Now when are you going to convince Shumphreys that she's not a goddess, Harry Larry Potter? "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:04 PM:

" Romney/Jindahl in 2012!!!

I thought Romney might be too much of a flip flopper for you, Neo.

What? And I thought you were a big Palin fan. Are you now ready to admit she was a lightweight in over her head? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:10 PM:

" Tell me Harry Larry Potter, are you ready to admit that Obama's a liar? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:57 PM:

" " Romney/Jindahl in 2012!!!

I thought Romney might be too much of a flip flopper for you, Neo.

What? And I thought you were a big Palin fan. Are you now ready to admit she was a lightweight in over her head? "
--------------------------------

Harry, I never liked McCain, I just tolerated him. Sarah Palin, a good conservative, made the ticket palatable.

Do I think Palin is dumb or a light weight like y'all of the left made her out to be? No. But I do think the "McCainiacs" portion of the campaign staff ran her through the coals. We'll see what happens with her in 4 years.

I like Romney and voted for him in the primary. He has his "issues", like being from the left suck-hole state (kinda like Illinois) Massachusetts, but he was probably the single most accomplished candidate from either side. Bobby Jindahl's solid, not to mention a Rhodes Scholar, and smarter that Bill Clinton. And you know I'm not overly impressed with Barry Hussein's creds...he's a suave talking used car salesman.

Barry, along with most lefties are clueless as to what this country needs right now. If you all think an infrastructure plan is gonna "enlighten" the economy, y'all's smokin' some of the local meth products. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:17 PM:

" I may regret asking this question when I get a long winded answer, but what the heck. I am curious Neocon, since everyone else is "clueless" about what should be done, what do YOU think should be done? "

Raptor wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:13 PM:

" Susan: That is a great question and I look forward to hearing Neo's response.

Neo: I could have supported Romney, and Palin did revive the ticket. It is amazing the way the media and SNL trashed her. To me, she is the epitome of what the woman's movement was all about. I guess I may never understand the liberal mind. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:17 PM:

" You know Raptor your comment "she was the epitome of what the woman's movement was all about" caught my attention. Because in some ways she was. BUT she was also an example of where the womans movement (one of the places anyway) went wrong. It was the failure of the Republican party to see that, that sank the ticket (or one reason anyway). "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 29, 2008 12:30 AM:

" I am curious Neocon, since everyone else is "clueless" about what should be done, what do YOU think should be done?
---------------------------------

See...this is what happens when I check this before going to bed.

Here we go.

Rewind back to the 1950's. The rest of the world was decimated by WW2.

American's economy was not only one left intact and charged with rebuilding the world (Marshall Plan kinda thing). Democracy works well that way. Our GDP was something akin to 50-70% of the world's GDP, much of that sold to overseas markets through credits toward things like having military bases, and access to stuff like...oil fields.

We had no need for govt. health-care then because it was provided by American company's fighting over American workers, and generously given as a benefit to keep them.

American workers were arguably the best and the brightest in the world. Not only our secondary schools, but our universities were pumping out a quality workforce.

But by the 60's because we were the best though, we got arrogant and lazy, poor management and unionism reared it's ugly head just like now, and we pushed people-in-the know like deming, juran, and shewhart to overseas countries. As America focused on R& D and marketing to sell crappy products the foreigners were stealing our market-share, laughing there butts-off all the way to the bank making and selling ever better stuff.

By the 70's America's economy was in shambles. Our goods and services were crap. We were distracted by Vietnam and "the Great Society" which did nothing more than to enslave people to the American welfare system. Carter was a joke. Our HS's started to suck. Our universities took overseas students to maintain a high level of academic endeavor which is good 'cuz many stayed unlike now where they are going back home with the knowledge we've given them (Now, as America pumps out 63,000 engineers (many from overseas but now going back home) a year, China and India are producing 1,200,000+ each, both those countries now have more honor students at the HS level than we have students). And hopefully you know the rest of the story from the 80's 'til now.

So to answer your question, 2/3's of our GDP now is based upon consumer consumption, not on making stuff and selling it to the rest of the world. That's got to stop. Even before 9/11 and the mortgage debacle America's real wealth was declining because of this.

A country prospers by MAKING STUFF, goading free enterprise to seek and develop new markets, and by providing little govt. intervention. You may not like this but this is how GB built it's wealth during the 1st industrial revolution, and America built it's wealth with the 2nd industrial revolution. Japan did it in the 60's and 70's and now India and China are doing it. Create an environment where American companies buy stock in each others companies. This can be done outside of/not in conflict with outside trade agreements. It improves the supply chain and forces each others quality to improve. When we get the best companies again, fighting for he best people we won't need government health-care they'll provide it. And unions are a thing of the past, based upon manual LABOR contracts that changed little in nature since the 1920's. According the US Labor Department something akin to 75% OF OUR WORKFORCE performs knowledge work...not manual labor. Knowledge professionals work under professional contracts not manual labor based contracts. This is more personal information than I care to divulge, but many of the companies I have done work for have moved away from hiring union employees. They hire company employees, educate them in their way of doing business, promote by merit through combo peer/facilitator/boss review and they virtual have a job for life.

Our labor costs have to come closer in line with other labor around the world. It's happening anyway, and most don't realize it, but the sooner we deal with it in a constructive manner the better off we'll be. AND IT ALL STARTS with the workforce as it did in Great Britain in 1750, US in 1900, and so forth.

SO TO DO THIS OUR HIGH SCHOOL SYSTEM MUST BE REFORMED NOW! Our 72% HS graduation rate nationally is a NATIONAL FAILURE. Embrace "lean" and world class organization techniques at the secondary level. Graduate kids after their sophomore year and either put here butts in the service or community colleges. Either way they get a useful skill and they are employable when they get done. Then we won't have kids on the "6 year plan" like is the average now or bumbling HS grads no one wants to employ. Tuition costs will go down and the "teacher" labor shortage will go down. Get rid of the teachers unions and make them work for professional contracts like all other professionals. Get rid of teacher administrators and bring in retired business professionals to run the show.

Obama's infrastructure plan won't kick in til 3 or 4 years down the road, and that's provided we have the people for the projects. Let the auto companies go chapter 11. Let the UAW form itself as it's own company to make them improve efficiency and cut costs. they'd work a whole lot better if they didn;t rely on GM/Ford/Chyrsler to offset their benefits/retirement costs. And some folks will lose their jobs but they'll be retrained for other needed jobs (healthcare, HVAC, maintenance are biggests needs according to US Labor Dept), before any of the infrastructure plans get going anyway.

If ya wanna jump start the economy now release some of the military research/stuff to the private sector. I saw research somewhere that said military stuff that's gone quickly commercial has had a phenomenal $$$$ success and huge payback from the ball point pen, to the microwave, to the hummer, to carbon fiber composite items. Doing this gets rid of govt overruns and entices venture capital to build companies in the US. We could literally flood foreign markets through the "first mover advantage" and be set for decades to come making the new products.

I got other thoughts but I gotta go to bed...besides this outta give you something to chew on. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 29, 2008 12:32 AM:

" shumphreys wrote....

It was the failure of the Republican party to see that, that sank the ticket (or one reason anyway). "
-----
Yup. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 29, 2008 8:16 AM:

" ........not to mention a Rhodes Scholar, and smarter that Bill Clinton. And you know I'm not overly impressed with Barry Hussein's creds...he's a suave talking used car salesman.

Suave talking used car salesman? You sure you're not thinking of Ronald Reagan?

And I'm sue you're right about Obama's creds, most people who graduate at the top of the class at Harvard Law school are usually dullards, and fail to achieve much in life. Most top law firm seem to shy away from hiring those types too.

And hey, did you have Clinton and Jindahl tested to determine who was the smartest, or was that just another one of your brilliant (as often described by you) observations? lol...

By the way, I did thank you for responding to Blueys ignorant ideas about the earth only being 6000 years old, but it failed to make it past the monitor.

I really don't know why Bluey insists the earth is only 6000 years old. He seems to be of at least average intellignce, but for some reason he stubbornly clings to his uninformed view of the earth's history.

I just hope Bluey doesn't pout too long. It seems the only one left in agreement with him on this issure is his buddy, Vanutta.

I also suspect both of them are members of the flat earth society.

Now about my observations on those flip flopping habits of Romney, that you ignored....lol! "

The Question wrote on Dec 29, 2008 9:15 AM:

" The problem is that Sarah Palin, like George W. Bush, is an arrogant moron who is virtually incapable of completing an English sentence.
She was unable to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads, and here's her view on the history of the Supreme Court: "Well, let's see. There's ― of course in the great history of America there have been rulings that there's never going to be absolute consensus by every American, and there are those issues, again, like Roe v. Wade, where I believe are best held on a state level and addressed there. So, you know, going through the history of America, there would be others but..."
And here's her view of the First Amendment. You will note that she gets it exactly backward, claiming that the media may not criticize her attacks: "If [the media] convince enough voters that that is negative campaigning, for me to call Barack Obama out on his associations then I don't know what the future of our country would be in terms of First Amendment rights and our ability to ask questions without fear of attacks by the mainstream media."
And her view of geography is certainly odd: "They are also building schools for the Afghan children so that there is hope and opportunity in our neighboring country of Afghanistan."
She also believes we are at war with Iran: "We realize that more and more Americans are starting to see the light there and understand the contrast. And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win these wars?"
But I guess it's too much to ask that a Republican candidate in line for the presidency trouble herself to know what countries we are at war with. She was too busy grabbing up hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of designer clothes on somebody else's dime. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 29, 2008 9:48 AM:

" You all are missing the boat on who's fault all the problems of the world really is.

It was The Beatles Fault. Everyone knows that. "

The Question wrote on Dec 29, 2008 9:51 AM:

" Sarah Palin's answers all read like a book report written by a fifth grader who hasn't read the book. "

Raptor wrote on Dec 29, 2008 11:56 AM:

" Neo: Thanks for the midnight economics primer. Being an academic you must find it very frustrating to see the problem as one of the education system.

You are correct in that we must return to producing something rather than basking in the joys of the service sector.

Further I agree that our education system is a mess. Unions, bureaucracy and fear have taken priority over real education.

Fortunately the internet provides the info necessary to be informed and educated in our society.

Unfortunately the stigma of not having a college degree will weigh heavily for some time. But most degrees are useless.

I do think the Obama fixes for infrastructure will take affect more quickly than 3-4 years. What will be seen as a result in the 3-4 year timetable will be the devaluation of the dollar.

The fix is in. We just don't know what that means yet. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 29, 2008 4:52 PM:

" Hey Question

How do you think Caroline Kennedy would do with her experience? "

The Question wrote on Dec 29, 2008 5:24 PM:

" " Hey Question
How do you think Caroline Kennedy would do with her experience? "
---
I don't know. I don't know enough about her. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 29, 2008 8:08 PM:

" HP wrote.....

Suave talking used car salesman? You sure you're not thinking of Ronald Reagan?
---------

Ah no, Reagan was a CLASSIC transformative leader. He had vision, communicated his vision well, and had the trust of the American people except for in the last couple of years of his presidency. His vision ran astray of his beliefs.

Obama's positioned himself as a local leader, from Chicago, to get himself where he's at now. But we'll see if that transfers to the national stage. He communicates well obviously, but has no vision...other than to say he doesn't like America in it's current state. And he's not yet earned the public's trust. As I said before, being "birthed" from the corrupt democrat machine in Chicago is not a good way to start off. He's trying to surround himself with in-the-know people, but if you as a leader have no idea of the end-game, you'll be pulled every which way, and that's how everything will go...every which way. His lack of vision will be his downfall, mark my words.
-----------------------

And I'm sure you're right about Obama's creds, most people who graduate at the top of the class at Harvard Law school are usually dullards, and fail to achieve much in life. Most top law firm seem to shy away from hiring those types too.

--------

OOhhhhh yeah....
----------------------

And hey, did you have Clinton and Jindahl tested to determine who was the smartest, or was that just another one of your brilliant (as often described by you) observations? lol...
__________

Clinton's pragmatic and a smart man that used people well. His obvious downfall was his "moral lapses". As character always matter, like who you surround yourself with and are associated with, smart people don't have "moral lapses" when they're in high positions. It wrecks morale, vision and direction.

I've not seen any moral lapses with Jindahl. He had a plan hitting the floor running when he took over as governor.
-------------------
By the way, I did thank you for responding to Blueys ignorant ideas about the earth only being 6000 years old, but it failed to make it past the monitor.
------------------

I would not say his ideas are ignorant...his perception is a matter of faith. And as I said before, I would personally place Biblical Adam and Eve pretty close to his estimate.

------------------------
I also suspect both of them are members of the flat earth society.
----------------------

"Flat" is a matter of perspective, Harry.
--------------------
Now about my observations on those flip flopping habits of Romney, that you ignored....lol! "
----------

I did say that I had some issues with Mitt....... "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 29, 2008 11:01 PM:

" Raptor........
-------------
"Fortunately the internet provides the info necessary to be informed and educated in our society."
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The internet provides instance access to info, that is true, but information without insight or perspective makes for folly. It is exactly this folly that I see wrong in society today. Lots of people know lots of stuff but that does not give them insight nor the ability to problem solve. Today, people take "one kernel" of instance and automatically make value judgments off of that "one kernel", not realizing the entire scope or breadth of the problem. I see our democrat leaning comrades doing that a lot. Republicans are starting to do that too, as they've lost their principles.
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"Unfortunately the stigma of not having a college degree will weigh heavily for some time. But most degrees are useless."
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The stigma of not having a degree never really seemed to deter Bill Gates or Albert Einstein. Paraphrasing Albert Einstein when asked if he felt bad about not having a PhD, he said no because there were none equal or greater that could rightly bestow the degree upon him. That says a lot. But with that said it's my observation that obtaining a degree especially advanced degrees is an indication of intestinal fortitude and the ability to learn. And with that said...ah yeah...quite a few degrees are rather useless toward what is requred today in a high-tech society.

Ah but that's okay. We'll just become "a nation of shop keepers" like noted to Adam Smith in "The Wealth of Nations", of moderate wealth, subject to the wimps of international markets. If American's now what to become a second rate country, so be it, I guess.
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I do think the Obama fixes for infrastructure will take affect more quickly than 3-4 years. What will be seen as a result in the 3-4 year timetable will be the devaluation of the dollar.
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I don't but I respect your opinion. As for devaluation, GWB's unspoken policy has been toward a de-valued dollar since he took office in order to make our goods attractive overseas. It's kept American workers employed but it has caused foreign investors to look toward the Euro and Pound for safety. It would have been great, except they forgot to stop spending our $$$$$. I will still argue that part of our economic problem today though was caused by Bernanke lowering interest rates on the "fear" of inflation. To me he showed he's an academic not in full grasp of the "real world" market parameters. He should have raised interest rates when he came on board. If he'd have raised rates then, banks would have had capital on-hand and the current economic situation would not have been as "uncomfortable" as it is now. Ah but what do I care? Democrats like it this way so they can put more voters on the dole.

And what do I know living in Hicktown USA? "

father bob wrote on Dec 30, 2008 11:44 AM:

" well Q....i'm certain you're just as excited as i am to see footage of the new illegitimate Palin kid. i've heard he was born in a manger and a star in the sky marked the place of his birth.

someone said they named it Crip. "

father bob wrote on Dec 30, 2008 12:31 PM:

" "In an interview with Vanity Fair for its upcoming issue on the Bush White House, Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, ripped President Bush, saying that after the 2000 election, Bushs knowledge of foreign affairs was as poor as that of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R):

We had this confluence of charactersand I use that term very carefullythat included people like Powell, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, and so forth, which allowed one perception to be the dream team. It allowed everybody to believe that this Sarah Palinlike presidentbecause, lets face it, thats what he waswas going to be protected by this national- security elite, tested in the cauldrons of fire.

Bush famously was unable to name the leaders of Pakistan, Chechnya, and India when running for President in 1999. In a recent interview, he reflected on his early days as President, stating, I think I was unprepared for war. Similarly, in 2004, Bush said he was not on point prior to 9/11. I didnt feel that sense of urgency, and my blood was not nearly as boiling." "

medic57 wrote on Dec 30, 2008 10:32 PM:

" Question

There's nothing to know, her only claim to fame is her father was president when she was 3 years old. "

The Question wrote on Dec 31, 2008 7:13 AM:

" Well, Meds, at least Kennedy is a lawyer, and not a five-college beauty pageant moron like the Temptress of the Tundra, who can't name a single magazine or newspaper she reads and thinks Afghanistan is "our neighboring country." "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 31, 2008 7:43 PM:

" Thank you Neo. I just wish the gutless Bluey would follow your example. lol! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jan 1, 2009 9:06 AM:

" About Sara(h) Palin:

As has been confirmed by our local political expert, Neo, she was very qualified to be be VP.

But for some reason, Neo has dumped her for another choice for VP the next go around, Jindahl. Neo even points our that Jindahl was a Rhodes scholar.

Wasn't Palin some sort of scholar?

I heard her field of expertise was world geography. Or was it economics? I remember now, McCin said she had a lot of expertise in energy. Sort of like Cheney, I guess.

Does anyone think the RNC will be providing diaper service for the latest member of the Palin tribe?

Rumor has it they have offered up to 150 thousand in diaper service for Grip, Crip, Slip or whatever nutty name those two lovable kids came up with. "

The Question wrote on Jan 1, 2009 12:19 PM:

" News from the north - Palin's high school dropout daughter and her high school dropout boyfriend are just too darned busy parenting their child to get married. What inspiring Republican heroes. You betcha! "

The Question wrote on Jan 2, 2009 9:35 AM:

" Fox News and Rush Limbaugh have never encountered a Republican crime they did not excuse, a Democratic accomplishment they did not belittle, or a Republican scandal they did not blame on the Democrats. "

The Question wrote on Jan 2, 2009 10:59 AM:

" On July 1, 2008, Fox News "financial expert" Gary B. Smith predicted that the Dow would "be above 13,000 by the end the year." Fox News was oooh-aaahing over that great Republican-Bush economy in advance of the election, hoping to fool the rubes one more time. In fact, at the end of the year, the Dow closed at 8,776.39.
Fox News is as predictable as a yawn. That's one reason why its effectiveness as a fascist propaganda engine continues to slip, even as it redoubles its insane efforts.
Even regular Fox viewers, who are remarkably stupid, can probably remember that Fox was claiming that a certain senator was a lunatic a couple of months before he got the GOP nomination and became St. John the McCain.
Shameless hypocrisy doesn't quite cover it. Fox News is a two-dollar strumpet for the GOP.
By the way, when any "news organization" predicts the future, that's one sure way you can tell it's not a news organization. "

Rob Stroud wrote on Jan 5, 2009 9:52 AM:

" I am going to be working on stories in the coming days and beyond about the prospects of the city of Charleston seeking home rule status. As part of this, I would like to get the perspectives of Charleston residents pro, con or anywhere in between regarding home rule. If you would like to speak with me on the record for these stories or know someone who would, I can be contacted at rstroud@jg-tc.com or 348-5734. "

The Question wrote on Jan 5, 2009 12:11 PM:

" Having watched their right wingers for decades, Ive learned that what theyre really opposed to isnt bias. Its journalism itself.
One type of right-winger believes that accurate information should be secretly hoarded so he can make piles of money off of it usually at someone elses expense or use it under the table in some illicit power grab. These are the sort of people who regard criminal laws against corporate theft and fraud as excessive government regulation, and they CAUSED the global economic meltdown.
The information they want the public to see is propaganda, designed to manipulate the unwashed into serving their interests interests so shady and so antithetical to the public good that they never dare state them openly.
Case in point: These are the kind of people who were behind the various financial Ponzi schemes, and the flipping of Initial Public Offerings on worthless Internet stocks. After hyping the stock, they sold it within hours, once it had doubled or tripled in price, leaving the dupes who bought it holding the bag. The idea of sharing accurate news with the public is laughable to them. "