JG-TC.com > News > Stolen atheist sign to be replaced in Ill. Capitol

TODAY'S HEADLINES

SPECIAL SECTION

ONLINE POLL

ONLINE EXTRAS

Shop Smart, Shop Local

SITE TOOLS

OTHER LINKS

St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:08 PM CST
Stolen atheist sign to be replaced in Ill. Capitol

By the ASSOCIATED PRESS

UPDATED 6:00 PM SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) — An anti-religion group plans to replace a sign that disappeared from the Illinois Capitol and will add a biblical warning this time: ``Thou Shall Not Steal.''

Annie Laurie Gaylor heads the Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation. She says the sign protesting the display of religious symbols will be replaced Wednesday.

The apparent theft from the Capitol's rotunda overnight Monday was reported to police.

The sign referred to religion as ``myth and superstition'' and stood near a Nativity scene sponsored by a Springfield group.

An identical atheist sign in Washington state was stolen and recovered, and one in Wisconsin was vandalized.

The replacement Illinois sign and the Nativity scene soon will be joined by a Hanukkah menorah to mark the Jewish holiday.

Add your comments

*Member ID:
*Password:
Remember login? (requires cookies)
	Forgot Your Password?

Not already registered?
Then click Here.

Comment policy:

JG-TC.com encourages readers to engage in civil conversation with their neighbors. Comments that are submitted are not posted to the site immediately. They go into a queue to be moderated and may take several hours to be reviewed. Comments posted on Saturday may not be reviewed until Sunday afternoon.

In order to keep the page a set width, long lines (mostly long links) will be chopped. Try putting spaces in your links or consider using tinyurl.com to make a smaller link that you can include.

We will never edit or alter your comments, but we do reserve the right to remove comments that violate our code of conduct.

No comment may contain:

* Potentially libelous statements; such as accusing somebody of a crime, defamation of character, or statements that can harm somebody's reputation.
* Obscene, explicit, or racist language.
* Personal attacks, insults, threats, harassment or inciting violence.
* Commercial product promotions.

If you have any questions, please contact our moderator.

Rotty wrote on Dec 17, 2008 7:30 PM:

" Susan Humphreys, have you been over in Springfield, & up to no-good again? "

61912 wrote on Dec 17, 2008 10:01 PM:

" Oh Rotty....LOL...you crack me up as usual! "

Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 18, 2008 2:18 PM:

" Wait a minute, an anti-religion group, ie "atheist" is now going to start quoting text from the Bible?

Next thing you know, Christians are going to start quoting passages from Harry Potter, I mean the book, not the troublemaker. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 18, 2008 10:17 PM:

" That's a good one, Atheists posting The Ten Comandments, isn't that against the law on state owned property? "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:27 AM:

" Next thing you know, Christians are going to start quoting passages from Harry Potter, I mean the book, not the troublemaker. "

Ouch! lol... "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:40 AM:

" Where's Vanutty on this one? lol! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:46 AM:

" The Nativity display celebrates Christmas, the Hanukkah displsy celebrates the Jewish holidays, the atheist sign just whines about Christmas and Hanukkah. Throw it out! "

Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:06 AM:

" No, let them stay! By stealing their sign they are now adding one of the 10 Commandments to it for display. If we plan our actions right, in a couple of years we might be able to get them to add all 10 on them.

Who's up for the next one? "

The Question wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:47 AM:

" So religious fanatics favor vandalism and theft. Hardly surprising. When people go around proclaiming how "moral" they are all the time, you know they're really scum. "

father bob wrote on Dec 19, 2008 11:20 AM:

" Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:06 AM:
" Who's up for the next one? "

spoken like a true christian....so who ya going to murder? "

RAK wrote on Dec 19, 2008 11:34 AM:

" So what are you going to do to get "Thou shall not commit adultery" displayed? "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 19, 2008 12:26 PM:

" Religion has no place in government and government has no business in religion. "

Rotty wrote on Dec 19, 2008 12:30 PM:

" LOL @ Charlie & HP!
Great posts, gents!

61912, I twies me derndest!
LOL! "

hector19 wrote on Dec 19, 2008 1:14 PM:

" AH jst send moses again he broke all 10 comandments at once lol . "

.Doh wrote on Dec 19, 2008 1:33 PM:

" so who ya going to murder?

Looking to pick up that something extra special for Christmas, bob?

ROTFLMAO! "

Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 19, 2008 2:17 PM:

" Thanks Rotty, unfortunately some people just don't have a sense of humor. I for one have a great sense of humor, if I didn't I would be the first in line to help thin out the herd.

I can tolerate all sides, the religious impaired, the religious need to get a life, and the religious "I would get a life but its easier being an intolerant A__hole".

I for one like to stay with Matthew 6, it keeps me out of trouble.

Now if Matthew only wrote on for politics. "

father bob wrote on Dec 19, 2008 2:40 PM:

" i've seen this play before, just a different cast of characters.

it recurred until someone kidnapped jesus from the nativity. "

Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 19, 2008 3:44 PM:

" Thanks anyway, but I gave up murder for Lent a couple of years ago. I might consider adultery though, anyone particular you have in mind? "

medic57 wrote on Dec 19, 2008 4:03 PM:

" The Question wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:47 AM:

" So religious fanatics favor vandalism and theft. Hardly surprising. When people go around proclaiming how "moral" they are all the time, you know they're really scum. "

I see, it's ok for you to be sarcastic, just no one else. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 19, 2008 4:52 PM:

" Honestly Rotty why would I steal an atheist sign? I would have posted the quote from Chesterton, "Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do." A much more powerful message but one that I suspect is beyond your power to grasp. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 19, 2008 6:46 PM:

" " So religious fanatics favor vandalism and theft. Hardly surprising. When people go around proclaiming how "moral" they are all the time, you know they're really scum. "

I guess you're talking about Jon Vanutty? "

The Question wrote on Dec 19, 2008 6:55 PM:

" "I see, it's ok for you to be sarcastic, just no one else."
---
I wasn't being sarcastic. They are scum. "

Rotty wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:46 PM:

" Shump finally seen this article.
LOL!
Heya BlueDog, shump/shemp....
Hey, it's the other stooge!
Sorry, I was forced, my friends.
LOL!

You mean something like this, Shump?

G. K. Chesterton

I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean.

&

G. K. Chesterton

I owe my success to having listened respectfully to the very best advice, and then going away and doing the exact opposite.

Something like that?
Yup, that kind of sounds like me.
LOL! "

medic57 wrote on Dec 19, 2008 10:39 PM:

" I wasn't being sarcastic. They are scum. "

I haven't seen any Religious Fanatics on this site yet.

So, just because someone believes a certain way, they are Scum, right. "

just wondering wrote on Dec 19, 2008 11:54 PM:

" Leave it to the question to show us that good old liberal tolerance on a daily basis. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:01 AM:

" Yes Rotty but we all can tell that you haven't bathed in a long time. As I said Chesterton is a bit to advanced for you to comprehend. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:04 AM:

" just wondering wrote on Dec 19, 2008 11:54 PM:

" Leave it to the question to show us that good old liberal tolerance on a daily basis. "

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I guess you're saying you prefer the tolerance that we see on here daily from the poster who is currently posting as the BlueDogDemocrat, huh?

Now there's a tolerant person, right?

You gotta love how some folks get bent out of shape over remarks made by those they disagree with politically but seem to ignore any and everything said by those the agree with, regardless of how hateful, intolerant or mean it is.

By the way, just wondering, are you in the earth is only 6000 years old club yet? Word is that old Bluey and Vanutta are looking for new members. lol! "

The Question wrote on Dec 20, 2008 9:05 AM:

" I haven't seen any Religious Fanatics on this site yet.
---
That's funny. I have. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 20, 2008 9:45 AM:

" (Honestly Rotty why would I steal an atheist sign? I would have posted the quote from Chesterton, "Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do." A much more powerful message but one that I suspect is beyond your power to grasp.)

And G.K. Chesterton would have said you were "not right" in placing your sign, shumphreys.
You see ,Susan, your "act" of placing the sign, would have proven the sign's critique, OF YOU.

LOL!

The more you pretend to possess depth and understanding, Susan, the more you reveal your shallowness and pride.

LOL! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 20, 2008 9:49 AM:

" Go back to sleep shumphreys.

The Land of Nod needs your "insights" and "wisdom".

LOL! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 20, 2008 9:52 AM:

" Rotty- (Heya BlueDog, shump/shemp....
Hey, it's the other stooge!
Sorry, I was forced, my friends.
LOL!)

ROFLMAO, ROTTY!!!!!

Shump's power to grasp- "WOOP WOOP WOOP! NYUK NYUK NYUK!"

LOL! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 20, 2008 12:05 PM:

" "The secularists have not wrecked divine things; but the secularists have wrecked secular things, if that is any comfort to them"

G.K.Chesterton "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 20, 2008 12:31 PM:

" Question- (I wasn't being sarcastic. They are scum.)

"There is no bigot like the atheist."

-G.K.Chesterton "

Rotty wrote on Dec 21, 2008 8:37 PM:

" Rotty wrote on Dec 19, 2008 7:46 PM:

"G. K. Chesterton

I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean."

.......

shemp-hreys wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:01 AM:

"Yes Rotty but we all can tell that you haven't bathed in a long time."

.......

So Shemp admits I'm a heck of a nice guy.
Thanks, Shemp!
By the way, I think you've been doing too much hemp.
LOL!

.......

shemp-hreys wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:01 AM:

"As I said Chesterton is a bit to advanced for you to comprehend."

.......

And you can truely attest to this, Soapbox Susie?

"And when it rains on your parade, look up rather than down. Without the rain, there would be no rainbow."

-G. K. Chesterton

Here, you can have my flea collar, Shemp - oops, nevermind, I see you have your spiked one on.
LOL!

Need a parasol? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 22, 2008 8:36 AM:

" Gregory S. Paul in the "Journal of Religion and Society", systematically compared seventeen economically developed nations, and reached the devastating conclustion that 'higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early morality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.' "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 22, 2008 8:40 AM:

" Sam Harris, "The End of Faith" "We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them 'religious'; otherwise, they are likely to be called 'mad', 'psychotic' or 'delusional'.....And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are." "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 22, 2008 8:43 AM:

" Gore Vidal "The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three anti-human religions have evolved--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally, patriarchal--God is the Omnipotent Father--hence the loathing of women for 2,000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and he earthly male delegates." "

Charlie Watts wrote on Dec 22, 2008 3:58 PM:

" Sheeez, I said I might consider adultery, now I have to deal with "higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early morality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion". I'm not Santa and can do all this in one night, I need some time if all this needs occomplished.

:-), :-), :-), :-), :-)...... "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 22, 2008 4:15 PM:

" So there is 3 people that agree with you Suzie how about the other 3 billion who don't? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:44 AM:

" And just how many do you think agree with you Mr. Vanatta? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 23, 2008 11:14 AM:

" A whole a bunch agree with me Ms Susie. It would be pretty hard to claim to be a Christian and not be a monotheist. You just said in a recent post that 78.4% of all adults consider themselves Christians. So I would say based upon your estimate about well lets just use it on the US population instead of the world. .784 times 300 million is about 235 million. errrrr thats just in the US, looks like a lot of people agree with me.

Merry Christmas Susie

Immanuel , God with us "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 1:03 AM:

" shumphreys-

Have a Merry Just Another December Day! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 1:19 AM:

" (shumphreys- 'higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early morality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.)

Mmmm Hmmm.

And what did ole Gregory S. Paul conclude about the atheistic nations that Godlessly murdered, tortured, and brutalized humanity by the millions?

Perhaps Greg never heard of Stalin, Mao Zedong or Pol Pot.

Yes indeed, those Atheists certainly are morally superior to those darned believers aren't they Susan. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 24, 2008 8:30 AM:

" Don't forget Mr. Vanatta that Christianity is NOT the dominate religion in other parts of the world. So how many does that make that agree with me? Kind of silly isn't it considering it makes no difference what so ever, what you believe, or whether anyone believes what you believe. Enjoy the Winter Solstice Johnny boy. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 11:12 AM:

" So shumphrey's, you're advocating the moral virtues of every religion in the world EXCEPT Christianity.

Yet over at the New Deal page you are attributing moral hypocrisy to ALL religions.

And what makes your argument even more ridiculous; through all of your glaring double-standards and blatant hypocrisies, you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that, YOUR VERY OWN PIETIES ARE IN FACT A RELIGION. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 24, 2008 12:59 PM:

" Get over it BDD. I have said many, many times, ALL religions have the capacity to help people become better people or worser people! AND I have said that what any individual believes is totally irrelevant, all that matters are everyday actions, how one treats ones fellows. I understand it is a concept beyond your comprehension. But maybe someday you too can "see the light" and get off that high horse of yours and also become a better person rather than the worsen one that you now present yourself as being. "

Rotty wrote on Dec 24, 2008 1:42 PM:

" BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 11:12 AM:

"And what makes your argument even more ridiculous; through all of your glaring double-standards and blatant hypocrisies, you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that, YOUR VERY OWN PIETIES ARE IN FACT A RELIGION."

.......

Excellant!
LMAO! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 24, 2008 3:12 PM:

" OK Susie, and I wish you a merry Christmas. By the way that is such a come down from Mr. Vanatta to Johnny boy, but thats OK because its Christmas. Here is a thought for you this was written about 700 years before Jesus' birth,

"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6) "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 3:28 PM:

" Susan Susan Susan. What are we to make of you?

OVER ON THE "NEW DEAL" THREAD YOU SAID:

"But for good people to do evil things. it takes religion."

BUT NOW YOU ARGUE AGAINST YOUR OWN PREMISE:

"I have said that what any individual believes is totally irrelevant."

Now tell me Susan; am I a "worser" person for pointing out your obnoxious hypocrisies? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 24, 2008 3:30 PM:

" Thank you, Rotty.

Susan writes em.

I just read em!

LOL "

Rotty wrote on Dec 24, 2008 4:04 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 24, 2008 12:59 PM:

"and get off that high horse of yours and also become a better person rather than the worsen one that you now present yourself as being."

.......

So says Soapbox Shemphreys.
What a fargon hypocrite!
How sad.
[sniff sniff]
LMAO! "

Portuguese Breakfast wrote on Dec 25, 2008 12:28 PM:

" Fascinating stuff here. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:28 PM:

" Honestly BDD I haven't undercut my premise at all. Note that I gave credit for the quote, for good people to do evil. I have no problem pointing out the opinions of others and moving enlightenment forward. Whether I buy the premise completely is another issue and fully up for discussion. BUT I understand you don't comprehend what a discussion is all about. Actually I agree full heartedly with both points, for good people to do evil it takes religion AND what you believe is totally and completely irrelevant, all that matters are your everyday actions. There isn't any conflict between those two points since they address different issues! Learn to read. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:33 PM:

" AND Johhny boy what do you think calling me "Susie" is? If you are going to use cutsie names for me then it should be all right for me to use a cutsie/dimminutive name for you. "

The Question wrote on Dec 25, 2008 3:49 PM:

" "ON-ward Christian thieves,
suppressing all free speech..." "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 25, 2008 6:49 PM:

" shumphreys, you're about as enlightened as a 2 watt bulb.

If what any individual believes is totally irrelevant, then why are religious beliefs all of a sudden relevant when the individual does evil?

And to prove that your premise is nonsense, some of the most brutal and inhumane acts of evil the world has ever seen, were perpetrated by Atheist regimes. What were their religious beliefs?

If religion allowed the Christian to do evil; then what motivated the Atheist to do evil?

How do you explain evil acts committed by Atheists?

Are Atheists naturally evil people since there was no religion to lead them astray?

You simply want your ridiculously hypocritical theory to work in only one direction:

Good people + evil things = religion.

BUT, WHAT ABOUT:

Good people + evil things + no religion = what?

Your premise lacks this basic logic, Susan:

If "good" people are using religion to do evil acts, then maybe, just maybe, they weren't "good" people to begin with. And maybe, just maybe, religion wasn't the problem; the people were. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 25, 2008 7:23 PM:

" TQ, One example of Christians suppressing fee speech please. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 25, 2008 8:22 PM:

" Ms. Susan Humphreys I was not offended by you calling me Johnny boy I told you it was OK didn't I? I wish you would spell it right though. I showed you the courtesy of correcting my misspelling of your name from Suzie to Susie but I am more concerned about your inability to comprehend the seriousness of your rebellion against the Creator God of the universe by your rejection of His gift to mankind His son Jesus the Christ. Then there is your disbelief in the truth of the Bible when we are at the point today when a person who is capable of observing the events of the world being centered on Israel, Jerusalem, and all the Middle East and which are the direct fulfillment of Bible prophecies in Ezekiel, Daniel, Matthew, and others writers of the Bible. Knowledge is not the most important thing to have because when there is no wisdom knowledge is worthless. You do not seem to be able to grasp that Christians are not the model for Christianity, Jesus is.
Susie there was no reason for you to have been offended because someone invited you to come to his or her Christian church. If you didnt want to go then you were perfectly within your rights to not go. It was of no benefit to that person whether you went or not. It was no feather in their hat. They didnt get another star on their chain by reaching out to you. If a person is a Christian they tell others and try to get them to come that is the very essence of being a follower of Jesus Christ to do that. It was out of love and concern for you that you were asked. It is for the same reason I keep responding to you on these posts. Many people have asked me, Why do you even waste your time on those people? I dont consider you a waste of time. "

VTucker wrote on Dec 25, 2008 11:23 PM:

" Merry Christmas, everyone. BDD, I can't speak for Susan, but I might have some idea of what she means by "for good people to do evil things it takes religion." I'll talk about Christianity since it is the religion I'm most familiar with.

There are many Christians who make the world a better place--people such as Mother Teresa, Corrie ten Boom, and many, many others who make it part of their faith to love and serve others. Part of their religion is bringing hope and redemption to their part of the world.

However, instead of love, other Christians share bigotry, doctrinal nit-picking and divisiveness, even violence at times--all in the name of religion. They can be perfectly good people until someone disagrees with them or doesn't see things their way. Then, they can murder someone (sometimes literally) and claim that God told them to do it.

Somehow, evil seems worse when it is done in the name of God. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:16 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta what you don't grasp is that my name is NOT Susie or Suzie, using that name is a sign of disrespect. You can call me Ms. Humphreys or Susan. If you persist than I will happily call you Johnny boy. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:31 AM:

" Finally you are getting around to a serious discussion of the issues. First lets look at your statement, "inability to comprehend the seriousness of your rebellion against the Creator God of the universe by your rejection of His gift to mankind His son Jesus the Christ."
I am concerned of YOUR inability to comprehend that different people hold different religious and non-religious beliefs. These differences of opinion have NOTHING to do with whether they will be SAVED or NOT SAVED since as I have already pointed out if there is ANY TRUTH to the Christian concept of GRACE (which is about being saved and forgiven) then GRACE will be granted to EVERYONE, no mattter whether they believe in God or DO NOT believe in God, whether they accept Jesus as the One and ONLY son of God or whether they accept Jesus as just one of many, wise men, no different from the Buddha, Lao Tzu or you or me. Consequently what YOU believe, what I believe, what anybody believes is totally irrelevant. What then are we left with? Why have religion at all if as has been shown on these pages, and around the world, it ONLY leads to hatreds and ethnic cleansings, fear and war? As I have said many times, I agree with what the Dalai Lama has said, "I believe that all the major world religions have the potential to serve humanity and develop GOOD human beings. By 'good' I mean that they have a good and more compassionate heart." Within ALL of the worlds Sacred Texts and the writings of some of our greatest thinkers you will SEE a common thread that unites them ALL, that concept is that it doesn't matter what religion you follow or whether you follow any ALL that matters are your day to day actions, how you treat your fellow man, especially those that are different from you. AND that is what will help you develop that more compassionate heart. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:39 AM:

" Now as to the Bible. We know that the Bible is a great mix of myth and metaphor, poetry and prose, historical fact and fiction. IT is NOT absolute TRUTH. IT is NOT the infallible Word of God. The Bible was written by men with an agenda. Pretending, denying the TRUTH of the Bible is futile, it is what it is, nothing more nor nothing less. IT is however, still a great book and well worth reading. There is still great wisdom contained within its pages for those that read it thoughtfully and seriously. BUT it is not the ONLY great book, and I have listed many over these last two years but I will do so again: The Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, the Sutra of 42 Chapters, Black Elk Speaks, Siddhartha, Walden and Civil Discourse, Zen for Americans, and for younger folks the stories of our childhood Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, The Tales of King Arthur, the wonderful Harry Potter Books,....there are lots of wonderful books that can help you understand the world, the human condition and what is needed to become a more compassionate, productive, happy, responsible child of the Universe. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 9:54 AM:

" Now to the next point I agree with you 100% that Christians, especially many who post on this site, are as you said, "not the model for Christianity." That is a point I have been making from the beginning that you don't seem to grasp. BUT there is a great deal of disagreement as to what Jesus actually taught versus what others said that he said, and what position a person should take on various topics (homosexuality, abortion, stemcell research, proselytizing,showing respect towards those who hold beliefs different from your own.....) if they want to do what Jesus would have done. To answer these questions the Bible isn't a great deal of help since it often offers conflicting adivce (an eye for an eye or turn the other cheeck is but one example). A person has to read the Bible thoughtfully, read the writings of Biblical scholars to help understand the times and the places and the common and conflicting meanings/interpretations of various passages. AND a person MUST expand his knowledge of the natural world by studying science, he MUST learn about history and psychology, AND he MUST learn about ALL the worlds religions since for Better and Worse they will continue to play a major part in the affairs of man.Only then can people begin to separate out church Dogma (the dross) and find the Pearls (gems of wisdom), the "meat" of Jesus message. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 10:00 AM:

" BDD talk about a "dim bulb" you do have difficulty comprehending simple statements. Your favorite tactic when you realize you are loosing an argument is to obfuscate. First their beliefs are still irrelevant, but irrelevancy has nothing to do with spurring people to action. Remember this nation was taken to war on the premise of WMD's where we all know there weren't any, but we are still in a war based on a false assumption. Actually the more irrelevant a person feels, the stronger his/her passions, which I suspect is part of your problem. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 10:14 AM:

" One last thing BDD I suggest you teach yourself a little bit about logic and making sound arguments. The premise good people will do good, evil people will do evil, but it takes religion to get good to do evil, doesNOT equate to your concept of logic "good +evil=religion and good people + evil things + no religion = what? The logic of the premise more correctly stated would be "good people + religion CAN lead to evil. You try to put absolutes (=) where there are none. Your grasp of logic is sorely lacking. The second premise of logic more correctly stated would be "good people will tend to do good even when confronted with evil options whether they are religious or not." So go back to the drawing board and try to make a coherent, thoughtful argument next time. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 10:19 AM:

" (VTucker- "Somehow, evil seems worse when it is done in the name of God")

Then how do you explain the unparalleled evil committed by Atheist regimes? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 11:18 AM:

" (Shemphreys wrote- "Your favorite tactic when you realize you are loosing an argument is to obfuscate.")

Once again we see Susan falsely accusing her rival of the very tactic that she is about to employ.

(Shemphreys - First their beliefs are still irrelevant, but irrelevancy has nothing to do with spurring people to action.)

That statement is a complete nonsensical obfuscation on Shemphreys part.

First Susan states that religion is relevant to peoples actions, and NOW she states that relevancy is not what's relevant?

COMPLETE ILLOGICAL NONSENSICAL OBFUSCATION.

Tell us Susan:

If peoples beliefs are IRRELEVANT

then WHY blame people's evil actions on RELIGION (which IS a set of beliefs)?

Here's Susan's aurgument:

("for good people to do evil it takes (a set of beliefs) AND what you believe is totally and completely irrelevant, all that matters are your everyday actions.")

BUT if any old set of beliefs will do-
then why aren't you blaming Atheistic beliefs as well? Have horrendously evil acts not been performed by Atheistic regimes?

And MORE importantly, how can people be truly "good" if they are using any old set of beliefs to do evil actions?

Again, if the set of beliefs are truly irrelevant; then the "good" people who do evil are basically evil people, are they not?

And that includes people of all religious beliefs as well as people of no religious beliefs i.e. Atheists.

So why do you turn a blind eye on the evil of secular regimes, and only single out evil performed in the name of religion? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 12:16 PM:

" There's isn't the evil of a lie. "

injustice85 wrote on Dec 26, 2008 12:28 PM:

" we can't display religious symbols but we can display an anti-religion sign? how about neither, or perhaps all of it...all or none, thats how it should be "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 1:32 PM:

" (we can't display religious symbols but we can display an anti-religion sign? how about neither, or perhaps all of it...all or none, thats how it should be)

Very true injustice85.

(The secularists have not wrecked divine things; but the secularists have wrecked secular things, if that is any comfort to them

-G.K.Chesterton "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 2:09 PM:

" BDD you are having difficulty aren't you. But I am patient and will go over the concepts as many times as needed. That is what good teachers do and it helps me get my agenda in front of the public. Relevancy is about the relationship of one idea to another idea. Religious beliefs are used and have been used as an excuse for, justification for bad/evil behavior. As I have pointed out religious beliefs are irrelevant in the final scheme of things. Which means to put it bluntly they are no excuse for good people to do evil things.Which is what Vicky also pointed out. Back to the original quote good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things but it takes religion to get good people to do evil. To reiterate one more time since religious beliefs are irrelevant they are no excuse for committing evil acts, BUT that doesn't mean that people won't continue to do evil things because of their beliefs. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 26, 2008 2:12 PM:

" Right on Injustice85, ALL or none. Personally I'd vote for none in public spaces. Which takes us back to an earlier concept, just because people have the right to do something, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 26, 2008 3:27 PM:

" Ms. Humphreys, since you do not have the ability or the proclivity to extend grace to anyone your concept of grace is meaningless. If a person desires to receive Gods grace he or she is obliged to accept it upon the terms that God establishes. God is able ready and willing to extend His grace and has offered it to everyone. That different people hold different religious and non-religious beliefs is irrelevant. If a person does not desire Gods grace that person can have an attitude like yours.
You said, Now as to the Bible. We know that the Bible is a great mix of myth and metaphor. Who are we? Who are you speaking for? We do not know that and we do not accept that. Gnosticism is based on myth not the Bible and only a few people accept Gnosticism while many people accept the Bible as absolute Truth. The Truth of the Bible is being revealed more and more everyday while nothing about mythological Gnosticism is being confirmed.
Again you have established your inability to comprehend the Bible in your eye for an eye turn the other check diatribe. God gave rules for the Israelites to abide by while wandering in the desert. Jesus brought a new covenant and He began to explain it in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus calls us to a higher level than the Law, not to execute personal revenge and He modeled that higher level in His personal life and ministry. Put your faith and your trust in Jesus Christ Ms. Humphreys and then you will begin to attain wisdom and understanding of the Bible but until you do you are looking foolish trying to explain it to Christians
Ms. Humphreys to Jesus education and academia meant nothing. He specifically chose His twelve from the common uneducated people. Then these people full of the wisdom they received from the Holy Spirit turned the world upside down. No other religion faith or belief has turned the world upside down or has had the effect on history that Christianity has or offers hope for the world like Christianity does. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 7:48 PM:

" You're not patient Susan; you're simply suffering from overt stubbornness borne out of your blind arrogance.

You give yourself far too much credit.

Your fallacy is simple:

You claim evil people do evil things UNLESS they use religion to justify their actions.

Then VIOLA. You automatically assume that they are naturally good people who were somehow the victims of religion.

And here is my original question that you have been avoiding like the plague:

What do you blame for the horrendous evil perpetrated by Atheist regimes? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 26, 2008 8:58 PM:

" (just because people have the right to do something, doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do)

Like putting an Atheist sign up in the first place, right Shemphreys? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 27, 2008 8:47 AM:

" Sorry BDD you are wrong again. I assume nothing.I don't even assume that you are not as smart as you pretend not to be! How's that for a circular statement? I don't claim that "evil people do evil things UNLESS they use religion to justify their actionts." That is your twisted perversion of quotes and statments I have presented. I have also answered your question several times. First there have never been "Atheist regimes" (your statement). There have been secular regimes, no particular religion. There is a difference between the two concepts although I am sure you will not be able to grasp it. BUT there are others out there reading these posts who will take the time to THINK seriously about those two statements. There have been atheists who were dictators and are dictators, and pseudo-religious dictators (those that claim to be religious but whether they actually are is up for debate).I don't presume to know the full extent of the motives behind their evil. BUT I have already pointed out several possible motives, greed, power, oil, money, pleasure.... "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 27, 2008 8:52 AM:

" Wrong again BDD. Once someone puts up a religious symbol in a public place, writes a Letter to the Editor promoting one religious belief or denigrates other beliefs, or otherwise promotes their particular religion in a public forum not set up for that purpose OTHER groups have the right AND RESPONSIBILITY to speak up. To not speak up and show that there are other options would be the WRONG thing to do. Silence is complicity. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 27, 2008 12:27 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta the concept of Grace isnt my idea. IF it is true it will be granted to everyone, one doesnt have to desire it, perform deeds to receive it. If one did, than it wouldnt be GRACE it would be bribery, coercion , a quid pro quo (believe in me and I will save you from eternal He.) Again read for yourself If Grace is True, Why God Will Save Every Person by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland.

Sorry Mr. Vanatta WE do know that the Bible is not absolute TRUTH. You only have to read Genesis 1 and 2 to find the first contradictions. Both statements cant be true. Either one is true and the other false, or both are false or both are allegorical and the concept of true and false doesnt apply to allegorical statements. There are many other factual errors, mathematical errors, and more contradictions all within the wonderful pages of that great book. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 27, 2008 12:29 PM:

" Rather than address your other points, which I have already addressed in previous posts, I would like to address your final comment, No other religion faith or belief has turned the world upside down or has had the effect on history that Christianity has or offers hope for the world like Christianity does. Your ignorance or is it just American self righteousness, is appalling. Hinduism and Buddhism have had as great an effect on history as Christianity. It was the teachings of Ghandi (a Hindu) that Martin Luther King followed and that brought about the change in Civil Rights laws in this country. It was the humanist teachings of the great philosophers and Budhism that shaped the thinking of our founding fathers. Why even the Golden Rule, Do unto others was promoted by Confuscius and then Rabbi Hillell long before Jesus appeared. Even the concept of Monotheism appeared before Judaism.

BUT most importantly the HOPE for the world WILL NOT be found in Christianity, or in Hinduism, Islam, or Buddhism (although Buddhism is the most accepting/tolerant of religions). The Future of this world depends on moving away from the religious strife brought on by people like you, people that think that their way is the ONLY way and are willing to do whatever it takes to make THEIR way the ONLY way. Whether you like it or not this is a multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic world and the hope for our future lies within that great and wonderful diversity, and our full acceptance and understanding of ALL it has to offer. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 27, 2008 10:39 PM:

" (Shumphreys- "First there have never been "Atheist regimes")

Oh really, Susan?

Soviet Russia was officially an atheist regime. The State was all powerful, and organized religion was forbidden.

They were afraid that religion would incite freedom and liberty, you know.

Now you can put a friendly PC face on that evil and call it secular, but here's the difference- The Soviets didn't separate the Church and State; The Church was persecuted BY THE STATE.

The Soviets required their citizens highest allegiance to belong to Communism (The State).

Is that brand of evil your definition of a secular state, Susan? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 27, 2008 11:45 PM:

" If as you stated Susan:

good people + religion CAN lead to evil.

Then it is ALSO true that:

good people + atheism CAN lead to evil.

That is assuming in both cases, that good people can perform evil acts and truly be good people to begin with. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 12:08 AM:

" (shumphreys- OTHER groups have the right AND RESPONSIBILITY to speak up.)

Really Susan?

And if those groups put up a sign stating the 8th commandment

"Thou Shall Not Steal."

That's okay with you? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:21 AM:

" BDD your are being silly. I have already said goood people do good and evil people do evil. So if an atheist does something evil it obviously follows that the person is an evil person doing evil. Remember logic, this is logic not the garbage you put forth earlier. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:24 AM:

" I already said that it was BDD. I also said that that if it was me I would have put up a sign that just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. I also said to Injustice85 that I agreed with him, the best option was to not put any religious symbol in the public space of the capital. So try again BDD. You can't make an argument about something that has already been presented. As I said anyone can read back through this forum to see who said what and when. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:31 AM:

" BDD an Atheist state could be a state that promotes Deism, or Polytheism or Panentheism, or Pantheism. So calling Communist Russia an Atheistic state is misleading. Calling it a secular state, which by the way means worldly, non religious, is a more precise and accurate term. Wherever possible one should try to use those BIG words that more accurately fit the situation or the point being made. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 4:09 PM:

" (I have already said good people do good and evil people do evil. So if an atheist does something evil it obviously follows that the person is an evil person doing evil. Remember logic, this is logic not the garbage you put forth earlier.)

Ah yes, LOGIC, my dear Susan.

So if evil people do evil

THEN

good people doing evil under the guise of religion are really just evil people. No?

BECAUSE AS YOU JUST SAID

evil people do evil

True Susan? And please....don't be silly. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 4:10 PM:

" (shumphreys- "I already said that it was BDD.")

Ah I see, Susan.

So you would put up a religious sign (The 8th Commandment) to protest the display of a religious symbol?

In other words; you would engage in the very act, that you were protesting against.

And this makes sense in your world, Susan? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 4:12 PM:

" (sumphreys- "So calling Communist Russia an Atheistic state is misleading.)

Uhm.....no Susan, no it's not.

The only "ism" the Soviets were promoting, was Communism.

The Soviets were calling for loyalty to the State first and foremost.

They were antagonistic towards any form of Deism or any form of theism.

They were not just passively "non religious" they were actively anti-Religious. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 4:20 PM:

" (shumphreys - "Wherever possible one should try to use those BIG words that more accurately fit the situation or the point being made.")

Oh uhm.....Susan, does that include those BIG words that you make up, like "sensical"? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 28, 2008 4:22 PM:

" Outstanding quote from the famous Suzie Humphreys,
It was the humanist teachings of the great philosophers and Budhism that shaped the thinking of our founding fathers

Suzie Q, do you really think there is anyone who believes this garbage?
If you want respect you are going to have to earn it and you sure wont get any respect writing trash like that.
It is the easiest thing in the world to prove what our founding fathers used as the foundation for their shaping of the United States of America.

Have you ever been to Washington DC?
You might want to go there some time and just wander through the Capitol rotunda, Jefferson Memorial, Lincoln Memorial, Supreme Court building, National Archives. I have and I do not recall seeing any of the lifeless soulless worthless potbellied ugly little Buddhas anywhere. Instead I saw artwork of George Washington kneeling in prayer to the Almighty God of the Christian Bible.
In the Archives you can find the words of President Thomas Jefferson, No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.

George Washingtons Prayer for the United States of America. He wrote: Almighty God; We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy Holy protection; that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to the Government, and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Buddhism shaped America??? You have now fully proved that you are demented and incapable of beneficial civil debate and I relegate you to the status of the question. Hence the Q on Suzie. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 28, 2008 6:55 PM:

" Bluey and Vanutty hang onto the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old.

To that I say:

You two have now fully proved that you are demented and incapable of beneficial civil debate and I relegate you to the status of ...... "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:09 PM:

" When did I say the earth was 6000 years old, Harry Larry Potter? "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:20 PM:

" I've been reading your posts, BDD and Susan, but I might have jumped in too late to understand what's being discussed.

BDD, it seems like you've been missing Susan's point. Good people can do a lot of evil in the name of God. (They can also do a lot of good, of course, as I mentioned a couple of days ago.)

BDD, if you're trying to point out that evil people can do evil as well, who would disagree with that? Who would claim that Stalin's regime was a good one? Still, ideology can grab at people just as religion does and function as such in their lives.

Actually, I think we need to look at individuals rather than regimes, and what happens to religious faith when it is wedded to power.

Back in the 1970s, I had the "privilege" of witnessing the Culture War's first major battle--the Kanawha County Textbook Controversy. I was a high school junior when the school board adopted what one member termed "godless, anti-American" textbooks. Her divisive, inflammatory rhetoric--along with that of several local ministers--led to weeks of violence throughout the county (bombings, sniper fire, beatings, etc.). Ministers were praying that those schoolboard members who voted in favor of adopting the controversial textbooks would die. Apparently, someone planned to help them along, as several sticks of dynamite were found near the gas meter of the building where the school board was to meet one night....

The point is, it was their faith in Christ that motivated these people, who were ordinary ministers and church-goers before the controversy occurred. They felt that what they were doing was good, and for the glory of God. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:37 PM:

" BDD I already explained (twice)the reasoning for supporting the "right" of the atheist group to post their sign next to the creche. I also explained what I would have posted if it would have been up to me, which it wasn't. AND I always explained that I agreed with Injustice85 that it would have been best for the creche never to have been put up in the first place. The fact remains that if one group is going to use a public forum to push/promote their particular religious agenda, other religious groups have a right and in my opinion a responsibility, to let the world know that there are other options out there. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:41 PM:

" BDD whether the Communists were active or passive has nothing to do with the issue we have been discussing, whether they were/are an Atheistic nation. I explained several times why that is not a good use of the term atheism and why the use of Secular was more fitting. If you don't agree with that statement than address that statement directly. It doesn't do any good to throw in non-related comments and try to pretend they are the topic at hand. As I have said, people can scroll back through and follow the issues, check the facts. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:46 PM:

" Nonsensical is a word BDD, check a real dictionary.I do also play with words sometimes, like when I use the word worsen, as in religion can help make peoplee better or worsen, we can see what choice you have made. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:50 PM:

" Sorry Johnny Vanatta, Jefferson was a very curious man and was knowledgeable about other world religions and their basic principles. It was his copy of the Koran that the Muslim Senator or was it Representative used to sweat on for his oath of office.I suggest you learn about Buddhism. Try reading Siddhartha, a fictional story, but a wonderful introduction to Buddhist teaching. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:53 PM:

" Oh and Mr. Vanatta my parents lived in Washington, well actually Potomac, for two years while I was in college. AND my oldest brother lived in Arlington for many years and now lives on the Eastern shore. I suspect I KNOW more about Washington than you do.Also one of my multi-great grandmothers was a Harrison. You know the Harrisons, one was a signer of the Declaration of Independence and two others were Presidents. AND another great something grandmother was a Buchanan. You also know the Buchanans, another president. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 7:58 PM:

" Vicky I am sure BDD got the message, his comments have been all around the issue because he is....? I don't know how can I put this politely, too chicken to address the point directly. Perhaps because he knows the comment was right on target and your explanation was, I am sure for you at the time, unplesant example of the main point, as Blaise Pascal worded it, "Men never do evil so completely and cheefully as when they do it from religious conviction." "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:00 PM:

" Now Mr. Vanatta, I have a question for you. Why are you against the reality that if Grace is true, grace will be granted to everyone with no strings attached? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:12 PM:

" (Vtucker- "Actually, I think we need to look at individuals rather than regimes, and what happens to religious faith when it is wedded to power.")

You are only half right, but clearly you're on the right path, tucker.

This has been my point since the beginning of this debate:

Individuals who are evil will use religion OR Atheism OR anything in between the two ends of that spectrum to promote an evil agenda.

If people use religion to commit evil- THEN BY DEFINITION THESE PEOPLE ARE EVIL.

BUT

If you are going to examine the religious or philosophical (reasons,excuses,belief systems etc.) used to perpetrate acts of great evil; then for the sake of rectitude and intellectual consistency, you would be disingenuous if you did not consider the belief system behind the horrendous unprecedented evil orchestrated by Atheistic regimes. "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:24 PM:

" "Men never do evil so completely and cheefully as when they do it from religious conviction."

Now, it would be difficult indeed for
BDD (or Vanatta) to disagree with the deeply Christian Pascal! Actually, he was a remarkable person. I read that, as he lay dying (and in pain), he noticed from his room "the plight of the poor in the streets, having to trudge long distances while the rich comfortably rode. One of his last great ideas was the bus...public transportation."

During the presidential campaign, it was a frightening to how Sarah Palin used the power she had to attract and energize crowds of people. She could whip her audience into a frenzy of distrust, fear, and hatred. She reminded me so much of the woman who stirred things up in Kanawha County--only with more exposure and more influence.

Susan, I don't remember many specifics about that time. I remember ordinary people being afraid, however, and kids wondering if they should go to school or not. It seems like a nearby restaurant was bombed, and I couldn't understand what that had to do with the textbooks. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:33 PM:

" (Shumphreys - "BDD I already explained (twice)the reasoning for supporting the "right" of the atheist group to post their sign next to the creche.")

Why would engage in the very act, that you were protesting against.

That's hypocritical.

And by what legal right does an Atheist have to display their message in a public arena? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:34 PM:

" (shumphreys- "BDD whether the Communists were active or passive has nothing to do with the issue we have been discussing, whether they were/are an Atheistic nation.")

Oh yes it does.

You tried to label the Soviets as a secular state based on your WRONG assumption that they were passively NON-RELIGIOUS.

As I pointed out, they were ACTIVELY ANTI-RELIGIOUS.

I'm sorry you missed your own point. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:35 PM:

" (shumphreys- Nonsensical is a word BDD, check a real dictionary.)

Yes Susan, but uhm.....sensical isn't.

And your ridiculous obfuscation just proves that you are well versed in "nonsensical".

LOL "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:36 PM:

" (shumphreys- Oh and Mr. Vanatta my parents lived in Washington, well actually Potomac, for two years while I was in college. AND my oldest brother lived in Arlington for many years and now lives on the Eastern shore. I suspect I KNOW more about Washington than you do.Also one of my multi-great grandmothers was a Harrison. You know the Harrisons, one was a signer of the Declaration of Independence and two others were Presidents. AND another great something grandmother was a Buchanan. You also know the Buchanans, another president.)

PFFFFTTTT!

LMAO!

Good Lord SusieQ!

How you DO go on!

Why stop there Susan?

Why not just claim Jefferson was your great-great-great-great-great-grandaddy?

ROFLMAO! "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:37 PM:

" BDD, I don't get what you're driving at. I don't think there is anything wrong with Christianity, which should be obvious by now. The problem is with some (alas, often many) of the people who represent it!

I don't know what Stalin's beliefs were (or weren't). Probably some combination of ideology and ego, ego, and ego. Hitler's, I believe, were some distortion of Christianity along with ego, ego, and ego. I'm not sure why you're talking about regimes, since we don't have a Christian regime anywhere around. We could go back to when church and state were more closely joined, I guess. When that happened, things weren't very pretty.

With respect to individuals who commit evil in Christ's name...in other situations they are not evil at all. For whatever reason, they are convinced that what they're doing is right. The folks I mentioned were defending the public schools from "godless, anti-American" textbooks. If property had to be destroyed and a few people had to die for that to happen (as they apparently thought), then so be it. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:42 PM:

" psssst, hey Vtucker or Susan Humphreys, or whatever name your using at the moment;

Blaise Pascal lived in the 17th century.

He never witnessed, nor could he have conceived of the horrendous evil committed by the Atheistic regimes of the 20th century. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 8:51 PM:

" (Vtucker- "I don't think there is anything wrong with Christianity")

Then don't single it out by name. Stick to individuals.

(I don't know what Stalin's beliefs were)

He was an Atheist.

(I'm not sure why you're talking about regimes,)

I'm referring to the greatest amount of evil committed by a belief system.

(since we don't have a Christian regime anywhere around)

Yeah, funny that. Now why do you think that is?

(in other situations they are not evil at all)

Was Stalin not evil if he thought the evil he was committing was "right"? "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:12 PM:

" BDD, I thank God we do not have a Christian regime. We don't Christian Ayatollahs, nor do we need evil that occurs when religion and the state are one.

The fact that Christians in this country USUALLY do not commit violence in Christ's name is not so much due to their Christianity as it is the United States' history of separation of church and state. Our founders were mighty smart. "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:33 PM:

" "Then don't single it out by name. Stick to individuals."

Why would I do that? The evil these individuals are doing, they are doing for the Christian cause! "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:37 PM:

" The same legal right BDD that a Christian group, Jewish group, conservation group, home health care advocate group, humane society group, any group has. Our state capital rotunda area has been set aside as a place for people to set up public information displays that adhere to certain guidelines. But again just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:37 PM:

" (Vtucker- "BDD, I thank God we do not have a Christian regime. We don't Christian Ayatollahs, nor do we need evil that occurs when religion and the state are one.")

And you never will have one.

You were right when you said our founders were mighty smart.

They were smart. And they recognized that Christianity was the perfect moral, spiritual, and philisophical basis to build a Republic upon.

Because they knew that Christianity required first and foremost- FREEDOM.

Freedom to choose right from wrong. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:39 PM:

" (Vtucker- "Why would I do that? The evil these individuals are doing, they are doing for the Christian cause!")

Then be consistent and single out the Atheistic regimes that commit evil for the Atheist cause. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:40 PM:

" Wrong again BDD I didn't use the words passive or active, again you are jumping to conclusions and making assumptions that are not supported by the facts. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:44 PM:

" Wrong again BDD, as I suggested on the other thread you can google sensical, it is there, actually under several entries. Amazing what you can find on the internet. AND I used nonsensical as an allusion to the quality of your arguments. You can google that word as well if you need to. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:45 PM:

" Sorry BDD no relation to Jefferson only Harrison and Buchanan. I do love to go on when it puts your knickers in a knot! "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:52 PM:

" The regimes we've talked about did not commit evil for the cause of atheism, BDD. Ideology can be embraced as fanatically as any religion and functions as such.

I won't say it's never happened, but I don't know of a single instance where someone bombed people or property because he/she did not believe in God, for the stated cause of not believing in God.

The regimes we've discussed that promoted atheism were driven not by atheism, but an ideology (such as Communism) that incorporated it. In essence, Communism was their religion--competing faiths had to be eliminated. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 9:55 PM:

" BDD what you refuse to accept is that there is no such thing as an ATHEIST REGIME with some sort of EVIL Atheistic agenda. There are Evil people that do Evil things. AND there are plenty of Good people doing Good things (and some of them are Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists) AND there are good people doing EVIL things in the name of their religion and out of religious conviction. The tragedy that Vicky and I recognize and that both Weinberg and Pascal recognized is that these GOOD people don't realize how EVIL their actions are. Or as Christ is reported to have said on the cross, "Forgive them Lord for they KNOW NOT what they do." Powerful words to THINK about. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:00 PM:

" Well said Vicky. Have you ever watched any of Hitlers rallies? You'd think you were in one of the BIG Mega Churches. He used the same techniques used by preachers. Shoot he was a MASTER preacher. Dim lights, song, temperature, costumes,slogans, music...he used it all...to manipulate people to do HIS WILL. It's just that HIS WILL wasn't His Will, if you know what I mean! "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:07 PM:

" I see I never got around to commenting on what the original letter was about. My personal opinion is that the sign protesting the display of religious symbols should not have been placed. Historically, religious symbols have been placed in public buildings to honor the December holidays--it seems curmudgeonly to protest it and to attack the religions being symbolized.

That being said, it seems much more powerful for Christians to honor Christ by placing crosses, nativity scenes, etc. on private property. The message is much stronger in that context. "

VTucker wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:22 PM:

" Good point, Susan, about Hitler and his "preaching." It's disturbing when you think about how easy it is to manipulate people. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:24 PM:

" Good comment Vicky. Stealing the sign was also "tacky". Just another example of how hate and distrust escalate over such trivial things. I think Injustice85 was right, it would be better to leave religious symbols out of public places. All or nothing is another good piece of advice for ALL to follow.Good night. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:46 PM:

" (Vtucker- The regimes we've talked about did not commit evil for the cause of atheism, BDD.)

On the contrary, their Atheistic beliefs not only allowed them to be aggressively anti-religious, it also promoted their evil without any moral or reservations or spiritual reprisals.

(Ideology can be embraced as fanatically as any religion and functions as such.)

Uhm...thanks for making my original point.

(In essence, Communism was their religion--competing faiths had to be eliminated.)

Mmm hmmm. Kinda sounds like you Neo-Atheists doesn't it. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 10:50 PM:

" (shumphreys- Have you ever watched any of Hitlers rallies? You'd think you were in one of the BIG Mega Churches. He used the same techniques used by preachers. Shoot he was a MASTER preacher. Dim lights, song, temperature, costumes,slogans, music...he used it all...to manipulate people to do HIS WILL. It's just that HIS WILL wasn't His Will, if you know what I mean!)

Yeah, just like those Obama rallies!

LOL

YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN! "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 28, 2008 11:42 PM:

" (shumphreys- BDD what you refuse to accept is that there is no such thing as an ATHEIST REGIME with some sort of EVIL Atheistic agenda.)

That's complete nonsense shumphreys.

Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic. They did their bloody deeds by claiming to be establishing a "new man" and a religion-free utopia. Their ideology could not tolerate religion. They are perfect examples of the moral void that is created when the belief in God is extinguished. You cannot separate their moral philosophies and their belief systems from their actions.

It would only be natural that regimes that have no need for religion, would have no tolerance for religion. Communism was their surrogate religion ONLY because they HAD no religion. And by direct extension they had no tolerance for religion. "

VTucker wrote on Dec 29, 2008 6:12 AM:

" No, the sign should not have been stolen. From the beginning, many people have had a hard time with "My kingdom is not of this world." Too often, folks want to take matters into their own hands and establish their vision of the Kingdom--by force if necessary.

Enjoyed your letter this morning--I'm predicting a barrage of comments for that one! "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 29, 2008 8:37 AM:

" BDD I read the letter from the Times that you suggested. I wonder what you understood about the message. First what the writer noted is the success of "grass root" organizations. Noting that change (of a society not just individuals) starts at the bottom not from Government (top) down. ALL of those things you have denigrated/ridiculed Obama for doing. Second what is it about the Christian message being spread that has "empowered" the people? Be careful about answering this question because there are hints in the article but the answer lies in understanding the most fundamental part of the Christian message not the superficial aspects of the message. I might also point out that if you are aware of other successful programs in India and Africa you will discover they carry a similar message. A good example to look at are the micro-lending programs. Another place to look for an answer is in found in the psychology of those Hitler and Palin and yes Obama rallies and rock concerts. ONLY if you and others can understand the WHY will you and others be able to avoid the pitfalls that can be spawned by the spreading of the Christian or any religious messsage. "

The Question wrote on Dec 29, 2008 1:51 PM:

" I'm afraid atheists have no monopoly on atrocities, Doggy. Fervent "moral" Christians have been slaughtering themselves and each other for centuries. The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition spring to mind.
Twain said man is "the only animal that has the True Religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven." "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 29, 2008 5:52 PM:

" (Question Moe- "I'm afraid atheists have no monopoly on atrocities)

I never said they did, Question Moe.

I never said Christians were innocent of evil atrocities. My point all along is that evil crimes were never exclusive to Christianity or religion in general.

On the other hand, the Godless Atheist regimes of these last two centuries have more than competed with Christianity.

And Twain was never around to witness that. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 29, 2008 7:08 PM:

" I think you all are missing the main point. The nativity scene is a celebration of the birth of Jesus but the atheist's sign is nothing more than a diatribe of the nativity scene. The atheists sign has nothing to celebrate. What part of winter solstice are they celebrating they dont say? it is only a rant. Im not saying it was right to steal the sign Im saying the sign was out of place to begin with and should not have been allowed. They should have been told if you have a symbol representing what you are celebrating then put it up but not just a sign of criticizing religion.

I thought it was interesting that Annie Laurie Gaylor of the Freedom From Religion Foundation said, Atheists never engage in vandalism. We dont go around stealing the Baby Jesus." However it seems the record proves to be quite different. Here is a news release from the Catholic League who have been tracking nativity scenes that have been vandalized this year here in the United States.
http://www.persecutionblog.com/2008/12/nativity-scenes-vandalized-nationwide.html "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 29, 2008 8:30 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta the article you mentioned does not say what the motive for vandalizing religious scenes or home decorations. To assume the vandals were atheists is stretching it, they could have been protestants vandalizing catholic scenes and homes or catholic kids having a bit of home. There is no way of knowing from the article the motive of the vandals.It is jumping to conlusions like you have done that have kept Catholics and Protestants at each others throats in Ireland for centuries. "

VTucker wrote on Dec 30, 2008 6:47 AM:

" I'm thinking people who vandalize Nativity scenes are not acting out against Christianity per se, but against society in general. Who knows what motivates them? You have people vandalizing cemeteries, drawing swastikas on churches or synagogues, etc. Religion may factor into it, but I doubt that atheism feeds the deep-seated anger that motivates this type of vandalism.

Then again, it might not be anger at all. This type of vandalism might be some kid's idea of goofing off. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 9:01 AM:

" Ms. Humphres, what was the motive for stealing the atheist sign in the Illinois Capitol? "

father bob wrote on Dec 30, 2008 11:30 AM:

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 9:01 AM:
" Ms. Humphres, what was the motive for stealing the atheist sign in the Illinois Capitol? """"

christain hatred...as usual.

but alas, poor phony jon vendetta doesn't have the faculties to comprehend the existence of other points of view in this world. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 30, 2008 11:42 AM:

" I don't KNOW Mr. Vanatta. It was tacky whoever did it. I also pointed out Mr. Vanatta that I would have put up something different if it had been me. I also pointed out that the group that put up the sign had just as much right as the other group had to put a display in the rotunda. I also pointed out that I felt NOTHING religious should have been posted in that space because doing so doesn't promote your religion it promotes hate. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 12:25 PM:

" Ok Vicky I'm think I'm starting to get it now thanks for explaining it so here it is: If it was atheists who vandalized all these nativity scenes they had nothing against Christians they were just acting out against society in general but if it was a Christian that stole the atheist sign it was because of Christian hate of atheists because Christians have the deep-seated anger that motivates this type of vandalism and that is a deep-seated anger atheists do not have.

Vicky have you now become an enlightened one?

I was just wondering though, why couldnt it have been an atheist that stole the atheists sign because the atheist was acting out against society in general? "

VTucker wrote on Dec 30, 2008 2:42 PM:

" Good grief, Mr. Vanatta, I don't think I commented at all on who might have stolen the atheists' sign! I have absolutely no idea as to who might have taken it. It could have been an atheist; it could have been a believer breaking the "Thou shalt not steal" commandment, since some do feel that the ends justifies the means; it could have been a bold kid doing something stupid; it could have been somebody who just wanted attention. Who knows?

I rather doubt it was an atheist, though. The (very) few atheists I've known have not been at all interested in activism. They enjoyed intellectual debate but would never have done anything antisocial. "

father bob wrote on Dec 30, 2008 4:39 PM:

" VTucker wrote on Dec 30, 2008 2:42 PM:
"They enjoyed intellectual debate but would never have done anything antisocial. """""

i think you lost him on the "intellectual debate" part. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 30, 2008 5:05 PM:

" Well look at that,

Fat-HeadBob slimes out of the peanut gallery to ascertain intellectual debate.

LOL

Fat-HeadBobby appears and the collective I.Q. of the entire site drops 50 points.

As if that were possible after shrumphreys philosophical brain spasms. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 8:07 PM:

" Vicky and Susan,
I just love atheists they are so cuddly, innocent, changeable, caring, honest, and always right. (_) "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 8:26 PM:

" Oh I forgot, atheists are not interested in activism, that should have been included in my list. God love em! He sure does! "

VTucker wrote on Dec 30, 2008 9:08 PM:

" Who are all these atheists, Jon? You and BDD are going on and on about atheists--what atheists??

The atheists are coming, the atheists are coming! :)) "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 30, 2008 10:34 PM:

" There are no Atheists, tucker?

There are no Atheists posting on these pages?

There are no Atheist authors?

There is no Atheist movement?

There are no Atheist web sites?

There have been no Atheist lawsuits?

There have been no Atheist court rulings?

There was no Atheist sign in the Ill capitol?

Really, tucker?

Is this blind drooling-mouth ignorance on your part, or just blatant dishonesty? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 10:35 PM:

" Hey father bob you know that remark you made about me,"i think you lost him on the "intellectual debate" part"?
Thats OK I'm not offended at all. You see Vicky Tucker explained it all to me. It's not really me you are attacking. You are just acting out againsr society in general I just didn't understand. You poor fellow. I can't imagine how bad it must be for you. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 30, 2008 10:52 PM:

" Hey VTucker

Here's those Atheists that you can't seem to locate:

Atheist Group Files Lawsuit Against Prayer at Presidential Inauguration

The head of an atheist group that has filed a lawsuit against prayer at Barack Obama's presidential inauguration says the government is picking a winner between "believers" and "those who don't believe" and subjecting atheists and agnostics to someone else's religious beliefs. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 11:20 PM:

" O OH, I just had another thought I forgot another attribute of atheists on that list, misunderstood thats right misunderstood thats what they are and that why its OK for them to act out against society in general. I just dont know how I missed that the first time. Now arent you starting to feel a lot better father bob? Now you just go ahead a vent your frustrations on me cause I understand now. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 11:41 PM:

" O, heres another thought just came they are coming like wildfire now that Vicky has opened my eyes. I think it is very possible an atheist did steal that sign. He may have been walking by and read it and saw where it said, no god no angels no heaven and then he must have surmised THAT MEANS NO HOPE EITHER no hope for me when I die Im nothing but worm food and all is lost, Im really just worm food even now, is that what it means, and then he made a decision, I better get that sign out of there before someone reads that and believes it. Yep I think maybe an atheist did steal that sign. Father bob it wasnt you was it? Shame on you! Didnt you know atheists dont steal things? Oh Im sorry I understand you were just acting out against society in general. Sooooojust let it go bobby dont beat yourself up over it because we understand. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 30, 2008 11:48 PM:

" Oh I'm sorry Vicky I guess I got mixed up I was thinking the title of the letter at the top of this said something about atheists. What! what atheists? Aint no atheists around here on these posts.
Wait a minute it said something about An identical atheist sign in Washington state was stolen, it can't be this is not about atheists. LOL "

VTucker wrote on Dec 31, 2008 7:43 AM:

" The atheists are coming, the atheists are coming!

Ah, c'mon guys, we're changing the subject a lot around here! First there's talk about atheists committing atrocities . . . then we have atheists committing acts of vandalism . . . now we're discussing atheists filing lawsuits.

Seriously, I don't know any atheists personally (or agnostics for that matter). I am sure there are authors who are atheists and websites written with an atheistic point of view, and lawsuits filed by atheists. I don't read atheistic authors, generally, nor do I visit their websites. BDD, you don't have to, either.

Why does it disturb you that some people do not believe in God? (Assuming that you are not confusing atheistic with secular....) BDD, do you feel that there shouldn't be any atheists? This is the United States of America, after all, where all are free to believe--or not to believe. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 31, 2008 8:58 AM:

" God if there is a God DOES love EVERYBODY Mr. Vanatta, even you haven't you ever read the Bible? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 31, 2008 9:02 AM:

" Honestly BDD you know Vicky was talking about this ARMY of atheists that are a threat to the very foundations of our society. ALL of those people who believe that ALL religions are of equal value and have an equal piece of the TRUTH and that all have the potential to help people become better people not just worse ones. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 31, 2008 9:10 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta I asked you a question a while back that you ignored. Since the hate fest you have put out is going nowehere why don't we address that question again, since it is related to what you have just spewed out. Why are you against the concept that GRACE if it is TRUE will be granted to every single person, no strings attached? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 31, 2008 11:09 AM:

" Susan why are you trying to change the subject again? I answered that question you just didn't like the answer. Just like when you didnt like the answer when I defined for you what makes a Christian even though I gave you the verse from the Christian Bible. You would never like the answer unless it agreed with your concept of grace and I have told you that you have no authority to establish what grace is but God does. He can give it you cant. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 31, 2008 2:37 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta I haven't asked you what your concept of Grace is I asked you why you object to the concept that if Grace is true it will be granted to ALL? Also Mr. Vanatta I never objected to your concept of what a Christian is I just pointed out that others have different concepts and the problems/inconsistencies of your statement. "

VTucker wrote on Dec 31, 2008 10:51 PM:

" Happy New Year, Vanatta and Blue Dog--you Christian militants, you. And Happy New Year to the atheistic hordes as well, not to mention the gnostics, pagans, Jehovah's witnesses, etc., etc. who comment here. A peaceful and prosperous 2009 to all.... "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 31, 2008 11:26 PM:

" Susan Humphreys, it is not my concept of grace it is Gods that I give you. I object to your concept of grace because it is contrary to Gods. There are no inconsistencies in my statements I have always said the same thing. This verse is very straight forward it is not that you dont understand it is that you are in rebellion against God.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Now Susan if you got a problem with this your problem is not with me it is with God take it up with Him. You are going to have to deal with Him now or later.

In Jesus name, happy New Year! "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 1, 2009 12:20 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta you have overlooked James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Or Matthew 25:34-45 too long to copy here. Or Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Or that according to John Calvin, you do know who he was don't you, salvation is pre-determined; we cannot influence our own salvation "God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation...." or Episcopal Bishop John s. Spong "The idea that Jesus is the only way to God or that only those who have been washed in the blood of Christ are ver to be listed among the saved, has become anathema and even dangerous in our shrinking world." So Mr. Vanatta who is preaching Gods word and who isn't? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 1, 2009 7:04 PM:

" Susan if you read Calvin he clearly believes Jesus is the only way. I am not a Calvinist but I respect their beliefs and will be in heaven with them because we believe Jesus when He said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but through me." John Calvin understood James much better than you do and one thing for certain you are not preaching God's Word. "

Rotty wrote on Jan 1, 2009 7:11 PM:

" Hey Soapbox Shemphreys, how come there's nothing on your comment page, at your site - nobody with you on your hypocritical quest?
LOL! "

CrowWoman wrote on Jan 1, 2009 7:38 PM:

" Speaking of actions mattering more than religious beliefs--I had a pastor once who was Calvinist. He told a close friend of mine, whose young child had died, that she shouldn't count on meeting him in heaven. He may not have been predestined to go there....

The God of Calvinism is an Ogre-God. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 1, 2009 8:07 PM:

" CrowWoman, that is a distressing case, there is an extreme form of Calvinism I have a problem with too. The best answer I have for the elect is they are the whosoever wills. Little children that die will be in heaven. I am sorry about the experience your friend had. "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 2, 2009 9:07 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta you just contradicted yourself in your response to me and to Vicky. Get your arguments straight, otherwise you look foolish. As to Calvin, as Vicky pointed out only the elect are saved, even those that believe in Jesus but are not part of the elect won't make it. The WHOLE point is that there are MANY different Christian beliefs and interpretations of the Bible. AND who is to say which set of beliefs is the Truth and nothing but the Truth. Quite frankly you have demonstrated that you are not qualified to make that judgment. AND as I have pointed out I don't care who is right or wrong because I think that there is a BIT of truth in all of them BUT no one and I stress NO ONE has the corner on TRUTH. No single religion or person or sacred text has the corner on TRUTH, they ALL contain TRUTHS, pieces of the puzzle. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 2, 2009 10:15 AM:

" Susan if texts are not truth then they are not sacred texts. Only Gods Word the Bible is sacred text. As far as you trying to define who is saved forget it and I dont believe Vicky pointed out that only the elect are saved. I believe she just mentioned Calvinists. I realize that this is too deep to penetrate your mind but I just pointed out that the elect are the whosoever wills. Ill explain it on a level you might be able to grasp but I doubt it. Have you ever read John 3:16? Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life Whosoever Susan, whosoever believes in him, is that coming through to you at all.

The elect are the whosoever wills they have elected to put their faith in Jesus Christ. "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 2, 2009 7:11 PM:

" Have you forgotten Matthew 25, God separates the nations not by their religious affiliation but by their works, their good deeds, how they treated their fellows that were in need. If you insist on reading the Bible literally you have to take that passage the same way. I am not the one that decides who is saved and who isn't. I have just pointed out the reality of the concept of Grace, if it is TRUE it will be granted freely, no strings attached to everyone otherwise it will not be Grace. It will be a quid pro quo, coercion or bribery. Surely a just and honorable God would never stoop to such a low tactic. I have more respect for God than it seems you do. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 2, 2009 11:22 PM:

" Susan Humphreys, I have told you before when the Son of Man comes in His glory and sits on the throne of His glory the age of grace is past gone. Matthew 25:31. It is after the age of grace and after the great tribulation. Jesus has just described the Great Tribulation in chapter 24. Jesus judges the nations on how they treated His brethren during the Great Tribulation. Susan you are not capable of understanding this it is over your head so don't try to explain it.
You just need to be concerned about your own soul now while it is the age of grace.
Think about it. "

Rotty wrote on Jan 3, 2009 1:23 AM:

" soapbox shemphreys wrote on Jan 2, 2009 7:11 PM:

"I have more respect for God than it seems you do."

Yup, you sure do.... Pinocchio.
LOL! "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 3, 2009 9:55 AM:

" This IS the time of the "Great Tribulation" Mr. Vanatta and as you say "Jesus judges the nations on how they treated His brethren during the Great Tribulation" ALL of his brethren, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, people of other races and ethnicities, Homosexuals,Scientists, Academics, Atheists....... "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 3, 2009 9:56 AM:

" I should have added to the previous entry "and guess what YOU have been left behind". "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 4, 2009 1:14 PM:

" Inconsistencies how can you use Jesus setting on the throne of His glory to try to make your point when you dont believe Jesus will sit on His throne of glory? How can you claim I have been left behind when you dont believe Jesus is coming to take His church to be where He is? Dont try to tell me this is inconsistencies in the Bible, it consistently reveals these truths.

Im praying for you Susan that the Holy Spirit will so strongly convict you that you will repent and accept Jesus Christ. Now you only want to use Him but you do not believe in Him. Only then will the Holy Spirit will give you the understanding that you desperately need. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 4, 2009 1:46 PM:

" Susan, Did you see the report on Fox News Sat. night titled Escape from Hamas? It is about Mosab Hassan who was a leader of the radical Islamic Youth Movement, fought Israeli tanks and troops in the streets, celebrated suicide bombings and recruited young men to the cause.
But that all changed when Mossab says he realized the true nature of Hamas and radical Islam, during a stint in an Israeli prison. He converted to Christianity and now -- despite an Al Qaeda death sentence hanging over him -- he speaks out for the first time about Hamas, an organization he says betrays the Palestinian cause, tortures its own members and will never honor any ceasefire with Israel.

Its on again today 1:30-2:30 "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 4, 2009 4:20 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta what I personally believe doesn't matter, it is of no consequence, in the greater scheme of things. Neither are your particular beliefs. What matters are your day to day actions BECAUSE. ANYONE and I do mean anyone can say that they BELIEVE. BUT our actions SHOW/PROVE, that we don't pretend to believe BUT that we actually "Got IT". Do you really THINK that God is so dumb that he can't see thru you? That she can't tell that when you say over and over and over again, I believe, I beg forgiveness, I am sorry, I promise I won't do it again, that you are lying through your teeth. BUT when you demonstrate time and time again by your everyday actions, how you treat your fellow man, especially those that are different from you, that God KNOWS that you REALLY mean it THIS time. "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 4, 2009 4:30 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta there are many paths thru the woods, they all have twists and turns and dead ends BUT if we are persistant when we eventually emerge from the woods/reach the other side we discover that they all lead to the same place. That place is an understanding of what life, the human condition, and our purpose in this life is ALL about. Some call that place Heaven, for some it is Nirvana, for some it is The Tao, for some it is a unity with that unknown something that is bigger than us. Whatever you call IT. Each and everyone of us start our journey on lifes road at different stages and we ALL progress as far as we can in this life AND we all must follow the path that was laid out for us and for us alone. I have made my way to the edge of the wood and turned back to help others avoid the dead ends that BLIND obedience to a Book, or a Religion, to Dogma or Doctrine, fear and hate of "the other" can lead. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 4, 2009 8:20 PM:

" Susan I don't live in that fantasy land of paths through the woods like you do. And where do you get the idea that every night I have to beg for forgiveness and then go right back and do the same again? How do you know what my everday actions are. Susan if you do not want God to be gender specific why do you keep refering to Him as she? And are you so arrogant as to think that God doesn't see whats in your heart? You have made your way through the woods? How arrogant. You have made it all on your own. You are the self made woman aren't you? And you don't need forgiveness. This blatant arrogance really turns all people off! Even if you had something to offer to anyone who would want it when they see what it made you. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 5, 2009 9:58 AM:

" Suzie, that place you say whatever it is that all these paths lead to called heaven nirvana or whatever then you say evolved from something or nothing or what or did you create it into whatever you wanted it to be and what did the paths evolve from?

I believe I'll just stick with The Almighty Creator God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob it makes a lot more sense and everything I see supports His Truth. Your truth seems pretty shaky and nothing with any reliability to support it. The words of a schizophrenic dont impress me when compared to the Word of God.

Gods Word makes it very clear there is only one way to come to Him and that is through the redeeming blood and sacrifice of His one and only Son Jesus Christ.

That path is very narrow, but broad is the path that leads to destruction and it is those many paths you are rambling about. "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 5, 2009 10:35 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta honestly, you really can't tell the difference between a metaphorical statement and a fantasy. The path thru the wood is a metaphor for life's journey.The Bible is full of wonderful metaphors, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Now where on earth do I get my idea that you are constantly begging for forgiveness, because of what you write on these pages every day. Notice that I interchangeable use him and her when referring to God, I am anything but consistant. Since I don't believe in your concept of God how could he/she what is in my heart? Only you need to worry about that. Yes I am a self made woman who has had lots of help along the way from thoughtful individuals from those who have written great books, from those who write commentaries for our newspapers and magazines. AND no I do NOT need forgiveness because I have forgiven myself and that Mr. Vanatta is the very first step in moving on, in moving past the fear and hate and doubts that your religious beliefs have spawned. People Mr. Vanatta, hate those that have what they don't have and the tragedy is they too can have IT, but they are too afraid to reach for, go after, work for IT. They are too afraid to LEARN so that they too might understand. "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 5, 2009 4:05 PM:

" Sorry Mr. Vanatta the Bible is anything but clear about the way for people to find their way to God. Romans 3:28 salvation is by faith only. James 2:24 salvation is by works and faith Matthew 25: 34-45 salvation is by works only. Then there is Revelations, time and time again "I know your works". In the essay on the Religious Tolerance website that CrowWoman told us about, the paper "Salvation from a Christian perspective. Introduction" they close by saying "One might argue that different groups are all equally correct. What they have done is to concentrate on some salvation passages in the Bible, interpreting them as true. They they either ignore other passages, interpret them symbolically, or attribute unusual meanings to them. And so, diverse faith groups end up with entirely different criteria for salvation". Salvation by the way is about forgiveness of sins in order to find ones way to God. The passage one selects to follow tells the world a great deal about the character of that person. I choose to accept the passages that ALL will be saved whatever their religion or lack therof. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jan 5, 2009 7:48 PM:

" Sorry Susan you haven't come back with anything even worth my time to respond to. "

shumphreys wrote on Jan 6, 2009 8:14 AM:

" What you can't be bothered with the Bible? Actually I am not surprised. You can't maintain your absolutist stance and admit that the Bible contains conflicting messages about Salvation, which to you is the WHOLE central point of Christianity. Unfortunately it doesn't work Mr. Vanatta, the Bible is what it is, denying it is to bear false witness against it, which if I remember correctly is one of those Commandments you think should be posted in school rooms and public places. "