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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Saturday, December 6, 2008 9:42 PM CST
OUR VIEW: Survey shows disturbing lack of ethics among teens

By the JG/T-C Editorial Board
editorial@jg-tc.com

Some disturbing news was released last week about our nation’s teens: They lie, cheat and steal, and they aren’t afraid to admit it.

A survey of 28,760 students at 100 randomly selected high schools showed that today’s students are less honest than their parents and grandparents were at their age.

The survey results are shocking. Here are a few of the numbers, taken from the Josephson Institute, Los Angeles:

n Sixty-four percent of students cheated on a test in the past year.

n Thirty-six percent said they used the Internet to plagiarize an assignment, up from 33 percent in 2004.

n Forty-two percent said they sometimes lie to save money.

n Thirty percent said they had stolen from a store in the last year; one-fifth said they had stolen from a friend; and 23 percent said they had stolen from a parent or other relative.

But the most surprising statistic is this one: 93 percent said they were satisfied with their personal ethics and character, and 77 percent said they are better than most people they know when it comes to doing the right thing.

These numbers mean that today’s teens don’t feel guilty about lying, cheating or stealing. To them, it’s simply what people do, and they don’t see it has a big deal.

Should this be surprising? Maybe, maybe not.

Some say today’s teens are simply reacting to the world around them. Unethical behavior among today’s politicians and business leaders is everyday news these days.

And let’s not forget the added stress today’s economy is putting on families. Like their parents and caregivers, these students may be worried about where their college money will come from, how they will afford to fill up their gas tank, or whether or not there will be enough money to pay the monthly electric bill.

Perhaps, to them, it’s worth the risk to cheat on tests to get a better grade, and therefore improve their chances at earning scholarships.

Others might argue that today’s technology makes it easier for students to cheat. The World Wide Web is full of easily accessible information to copy for a paper, and it’s possible to send text messages to share answers with friends during a test.

But even though the mechanics of cheating have changed, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s WRONG.

Cheating is WRONG. Stealing is WRONG. Lying is WRONG — and today’s teens should know it.

The ethical standards in this country are slipping, led by the same civic and business leaders that our students should be looking to as role models.

Let’s not forget that today’s teens will be the ones leading our businesses and communities in the years ahead, taking their warped sense of right and wrong along with them.

We all should work together to raise the ethical standards of our kids, before they become adults and continue this disturbing trend.

— JG/T-C Editorial Board

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medic57 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 12:12 AM:

" Some disturbing news was released last week about our nations teens: They lie, cheat and steal, and they arent afraid to admit it.

Hey, Question, shumphries, Father Bob and all you other athiests out there, that's what you get from not having any religious upbringing, NO MORALS.

But the most surprising statistic is this one: 93 percent said they were satisfied with their personal ethics and character, and 77 percent said they are better than most people they know when it comes to doing the right thing.
There's good morals now. "

The Question wrote on Dec 7, 2008 7:24 AM:

" My hope is that the cheating teenagers will eventually find themselves being operated on by a surgeon who decided it would be easier all around to cheat his way through medical school, or in a plane with a pilot who thought he might as well cheat his way through flight training. Should be an object lesson for them. "

The Question wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:01 AM:

" Why do you presume they had no religious upbringing, Meds? Maybe they had the same fundmentalist religious upbringing as Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggert and other such Christian moral paragons.
Let's not forget that Hitler was a Catholic, Meds. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:45 AM:

" Like it or not, the values of children are merely a reflection of their parents values and ethics. Good parents have and tendency of raising good children while those lacking ethics, morals and values will usually raise children that are a reflection of them selves. Of course there are exceptions to this, but after spending a number of years teaching and working with children I am convinced this is usually the norm. "

.Doh wrote on Dec 7, 2008 11:58 AM:

" Probably all future libtards. LOL! "

medic57 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 2:24 PM:

" I have flown 48 times in my life and had 5 operations, and have yet to have had an incompitent doctoy or Pilot. I once flew to Seattle, then entire crew was female, my dad ask me what I thought about that, I told him, didn't matter to me as long as they knew how to fly. "

just the facts wrote on Dec 7, 2008 3:45 PM:

" Today's generation was born between 1981 and 2001 and have been dubbed the "Millennials". Like other generations before them, they often get a bad rap from their predecessors. One might be surprised to learn that some researchers who study generational behaviors liken the Millennials to.....the "G.I. Generation"! Several good books have been and continue to be written about this new generation. Contrary to the singular survey cited above, I believe the Millenials offer hope for the future. See the following site for presentations offering another perspective: http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation-Search/Tag/millennials, or take some time to "google" Millennials, you will be in for some interesting reading. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 7, 2008 4:24 PM:

" You left out old Oral "send me your money or God is taking me home" Roberts and Pat "daddy got me out when the shooting started" Robertson. And how can you omit old Benny "I only preach in warm climates" Hinn. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 7, 2008 5:09 PM:

" Just the facts, they are the future, for better and worse. Don't forget Medic 78.4% of all adults consider themselves Christians. If there is a failure here it is obviously with Christianity. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 7, 2008 5:49 PM:

" " I have flown 48 times in my life....

You must keep a flight log, huh? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 7, 2008 8:14 PM:

" What, shumphreys, there are no dishonest and hypocritical atheists or agnostics? "

The Question wrote on Dec 7, 2008 8:39 PM:

" " What, shumphreys, there are no dishonest and hypocritical atheists or agnostics? "
----
Of course there are, although even they don't have the low morals of Christian evangelists -- you know, the people who scare old ladies into giving them their Social Security checks. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:31 PM:

" (Of course there are, although even they don't have the low morals of Christian evangelists)

Or possibly the high moral standards of a murderous tyrannical Atheists like Stalin, Pol Pot, or Mao Zedong, eh Question? "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 7, 2008 9:47 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:45 AM: " Like it or not, the values of children are merely a reflection of their parents values and ethics. Good parents have and tendency of raising good children while those lacking ethics, morals and values will usually raise children that are a reflection of them selves. Of course there are exceptions to this, but after spending a number of years teaching and working with children I am convinced this is usually the norm. "

Very well said, Mr. Potter. I couldn't agree more. What makes matters worse is that today's parents actually SUPPORT their kids' selfish childish mee first behavior by punching out little league coaches and we could go on and on.

Why do they do so? Because they can and get by with it! "

medic57 wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:15 PM:

" You must keep a flight log, huh?

Nope, hate to fly, that's why I remember all of them.

And, after looking at my last post, I now realize that I might be dyslexic. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:21 PM:

" Hey editorial board, why is this survey so disturbing?

There's been a concerted effort by the left to take God/Judeo-Christian beliefs/Ten Commandments out of the public forum of America, let alone our schools, as long as I can remember, and so there you have it. The results to me sound like a clear reflection of society...moral relativism. If it's wrong today...just give it awhile...some fad will come along...or some judge or court will overturn something ...and then presto... it's all okay!

So who says cheating on a tests, lying to save money, and stealing from a store is wrong, the editorial board of the newspaper? Pleeezzzz...spare us the indignity! "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:31 PM:

" Hey meds57...

The Question, shumphries, Father Bob, and HP's moral compass is rev. Wright, Louie Farrakhan, and the ACLU. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:34 PM:

" Hey BlueDogDemocrat....

And let's not forget the left's very own rev. Wright ("G*d Dxmn America")! "

Cognitus wrote on Dec 7, 2008 10:41 PM:

" medic 57 wrote:"... all you other athiests out there, that's what you get from not having any religious upbringing, NO MORALS.

As some others have pointed out, religion doesn't have a damn thing to do with it.
It depends on the example you set for your children. My children were not raised in a church, but I don't think either has ever cheated on a test.

I'll bet Ted Stevens is a great churchgoer, Tom DeLay, Jack Abramoff, etc. I'll bet they are all sitting on the front seat on Sunday morning.

So far as teenagers are concerned, just think of the example set by our President, who said his "favorite philosopher" was Jesus Christ -- but who lied to us time and time again: WMDs in Iraq, would be greeted as "liberators", .... Ended up with the respect of only about 28% of the people of the US. Why would a teenager feel compelled to be honest when one can lie into the highest office in the land -- TWICE. "

Becky wrote on Dec 8, 2008 7:36 AM:

" Oh, those loving and moral religions:

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the fanatical teachings of not only Christianity, but many of the organized religions who constantly kill in the name of God.

Like I said before, it's not God we have a problem with, it's his fan club that scrares the heck out of us. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:45 AM:

" The tragedy here is that arguing over who is to blame: the Christians for getting hung up on Dogma and law and failing to teach or understand let alone practice the ethical concepts found in the Bible, OR the secularists/humanists/socialists/libertarians/Unitarians/Gnostics etc. etc. THE fact is that not just young people have failed to grasp basic ethical concepts but so have their parents and grandparents and NOTHING is being done to remedy the situation. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:45 AM:

" Like I said before, it's not God we have a problem with, it's his fan club that scares the heck out of us. "

This one has to be the best post of the day. Good one Becky!

To add a similar thought, I once heard a preacher say: Lord, save us from the Christians. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 8, 2008 9:50 AM:

" shumphreys, I dont know where you got those statistics but if they are true they fly in the face of what you normally preach that Christians are in the minority and that most writers and intelligent people like yourself are not Christian and have proved the truth of the Bible and Christian values to be worthless and false. This minority of atheists agnostics and gnostics have fought tooth and nail against teenagers receiving any Christian value teaching and have managed to strangle the children of the Christians by removing the Bible from schools, prayer from schools, the Ten Commandments from schools and any public facility. Teenagers cannot be allowed to see the Ten Commandments it might have an influence on their moral values and that cannot be allowed.
The highest attributing factor to the degradation of ethics in teenagers is that they are taught in school biology classes that they are nothing more than the result of billions of years of chance and survival of the fittest. Who are the fittest? Those who trample on everyone else in order to survive themselves. With this kind of a lack of an ethical system why shouldnt they cheat on exams if it helps their score? If evolution is true there is no reason to have ethics. The Ten Commandments say do not lie but they dont see the Ten Commandments and besides they are told they are irrelevant therefore why not lie if it somehow helps their standing? Why not steal if it helps to get more, who is there to say that it is wrong to steal? The ACLU and Humphreys and her cohorts have done their utmost to trash the ethics of young people and have been very successful as this survey reveals.
We must not question evolution, we must not question evolution, we must not question evolution, we must not question evolution, we must not question evolution, it is drilled into the brain of every student in our schools and universities. No other view can be allowed or will be allowed and teachers who allow any other possibility will be fired.
Regardless of whether a person places any spiritual value on the teachings and promises of the Bible and Christianity it still remains as the best ethical guide in existence. And it is the express purpose of these aforementioned people to rid our society of Christianity and all reference to our Creator God. What you see in this survey is the result of the success these charlatans have had. Now tell me Susan Humphrey if 78.4% of all adults are Christians with Christian values how are you able to ram your anti-Christian agenda down everyones throats and cause this downturn in ethical values? It is a downturn because the survey indicates that young people are less honest than their parents and grandparents were at their age.
Thanks a lot Humphreys for ruining the values of our young people. Keep one thing in mind this is just a battle in the war. In the end Christians win. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and at the same time you are bowing you will be trying to explain and make your excuses for why you opposed Jesus Christ and deceived so many others in the work of your life. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:04 AM:

" Some of the best kids I ever saw came from homes where religion is not a big issue, conversely some of the worst came from homes spewing the same type of hateful stuff (I'm a Christian, so I'm better than you) that we see on here daily by the so called religious types, such as Jon V. and others.

Growing up in a home where religion is practiced might be a factor, but not if it's the type of religion spewed on this site. What we see here is the religion of hate, hypocrisy and name calling. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:25 AM:

" You're so busy telling us how bad the Dems, especially Obama, are that you might not have noticed that I always use a Capitol G when talking about God. There's a reason for that. Sorry to dissapoint you, Neo. "

BW wrote on Dec 8, 2008 10:47 AM:

" Careful, Cognitus, you're spewing. Why do you make your assumption about Stevens, DeLay, Abramoff, etc? Do you have some basis for such an assumption or is it just your personal prejudice coming out? Do you know for a fact that neither of your children has ever cheated on a test or is that just another one of your assumptions? I hope you are right about your children but you don't really know. If I were the only influence with which my children ever come in contact, I would gladly take responsibility and credit for their actions. Unfortunately, life is not like that and you know it. Looks to me that you just feel it's time to bash religion a bit and any excuse will do. I looked up "cop out" in the dictionary and there was your picture. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:08 PM:

" (And let's not forget the left's very own rev. Wright ("G*d Dxmn America")!

Excellent point NeoCon. I guess Obama's brand of Christianity is a-okay with the Liberal sheeple in here. It's funny how they never criticize his faith, isn't it? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:12 PM:

" (shumphreys wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:45 AM:)

I agree shumphreys. "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 8, 2008 12:19 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:45 AM:
"THE fact is that not just young people have failed to grasp basic ethical concepts but so have their parents and grandparents and NOTHING is being done to remedy the situation. "

You are absolutely correct. NOTHING HAS been done and nothing IS being done to remedy the situation. But plenty is being done to exacerbate the situation! Read medic57, Harry Potter, NeoCon Academician and Jon Vanatta on this thread alone. We've turned our back on everything moral in this country and wonder why people have no morals.

...and don't make the leap that in my post "morals" means "religion". Heck . . . I'm just talking the Golden Rule here. We've allowed people to get away with abandoning the Golden Rule as their "right" of expression and choice and we're wondering why people don't give a squat about others anymore? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 8, 2008 1:31 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta I have never argued that Christians are a minority nor have I ever argued that only non-religious people are intelligent or wise. Those statements are your perversion of the facts. The statistics come from the Pew Forum on Religions and Public Life. What is more interesting than those that just claim an affiliation is the number of those that consider religion to be very important in their life, 56% of all people reporting a religious affiliation (this includes Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims as well as Christians). Very interesting. "

even steven wrote on Dec 8, 2008 1:32 PM:

" I think I'll start yelling at kids in my yard. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 8, 2008 1:43 PM:

" Now Mr. Vanatta I have said time and time again that the Bible is full of great wisdom for those that care to sort through the dross to find the pearls.I have also said that I think that children should learn about religion, ALL the worlds religions. The problem is that Christianity can just as easily be abused and misused as used as a guide to help others become better people. The problem is that this is a multi-cultural, multi-religious nation, it has been from its founding and continues to become more diverse as time passes. The highest contributing factor to the degradation of ethics is that ETHICS is never taught. Period end of sentence. ETHICS isn't taught at home, in churches or in schools. Science instruction is not about ethics. Get over the fact that evolution is a reality, that humans share 98% of our DNA with Bonabos and Chimps, the earth, our solar system, the universe are BILLIONS of years old. From what you have domonstrated and what you have written in this last posting alone, you have a very mixed up concept of what is ethical behavior and what isn't. The Bible is not the BEST ethical guide in existence. I would vote for the Tao teh Ching or the Sutra of 42 Chapters, or the writings of....well heck if you really want to have an understanding of ETHICS you need to read them all, even those silly Harry Potter books. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 8, 2008 1:51 PM:

" Well Blow Me Over, BBD and Mr. Right agreed with me! See we do have some points of common ground and agreement. The problem with the "no child left behind" legislation is that the tools a person needs to succeed in this world, to keep from being left behind, are not TAUGHT in the schools. There isn't any time to teach concepts of the "Golden Rule" which by the way is common to many of the worlds GREAT religions. Confuscius, the Tao teh Ching, Rabbi Hillel, all presented the concept before Christ appeared on the scene. BUT there is much more to ethical behavior than that one maxim. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:12 PM:

" You left out old Oral "send me your money or God is taking me home.

I'll have you know that I was a member of the ILORD club.

I Let Oral Robers Die.

I like the ACLU's position that prayer no longer exists in schools.

Anyone want to bet $1000 that there was praying in Columbine High School at one time or another. "

medic57 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:15 PM:

" It's funny, the Supreme Court hears all kinds of Separation of Church and State litigation, when the very building the work in is coverd everywhere with Bible Verses, they can disbar a Federal Judge in Alabama for placing The Ten Commandments in the courthouse, all the while displaying the same Ten Commandments in their own courthouse. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:39 PM:

" HP...Let's not misconstrue the difference between living by "social contract" and living by faith.

Kids might not lie, cheat, or steal because they have been taught or understand that they MIGHT suffer public and social consequences if they are caught. Social contracts change, and as I mentioned before, and vary from society to society. This brings moral relativism and that's the problem today and reflected in the survey.

Living by faith means to not lie, cheat, or steal, etc. because it is wrong because a higher power than man (GOD) has said it is wrong and recompense will come for all of one's actions according to him. The laws of faith, like the ten commandments, don't change according to man's whim's. They are God's absolutes, even if man breaks them. There's no relativism there...those are absolutes. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:44 PM:

" BlueDogDemocrat wrote...

Excellent point NeoCon. I guess Obama's brand of Christianity is a-okay with the Liberal sheeple in here. It's funny how they never criticize his faith, isn't it?

And let's not forget rev. Al Sharpton's Tawanda Brawley incident and rev. Jesse Jackson getting bought off by corporate America so he wouldn't protest against them. It's how the Jackson family got the Anheuser-Busch distributorship in Chicago. Oh, oh, oh let's not forget Jesse Jackson's love child either shall we? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:12 PM:

" Now, now, now, NeoCon.

Those are all lies! Liberals are NEVER religious hypocrites!

It's.... it's just impossible!

LOL! "

father bob wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:41 PM:

" NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 8, 2008 2:44 PM:
" BlueDogDemocrat wrote...

Excellent point NeoCon. I guess Obama's brand of Christianity is a-okay with the Liberal sheeple in here. It's funny how they never criticize his faith, isn't it?""""

he's a christian, i would think you'd be ecstatic about that. "

father bob wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:44 PM:

" .Doh wrote on Dec 7, 2008 11:58 AM:
" Probably all future libtards. LOL! """

wrong, Dot....probably cheating repukes. since lieing and crime is all they can remember coming from the presidential example for the past 8 years. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 8, 2008 4:48 PM:

" Ms Humphres how do you know what is dross and what is pearls in God's Word? By whose standards do you make that judgment? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 8, 2008 5:02 PM:

" Ms Humphreys, you said, What is more interesting than those that just claim an affiliation is the number of those that consider religion to be very important in their life
Are you saying you dont consider your faith based religion of evolutionism important in your life? Or gnosticism is that not important in your life? What is so interesting about people who find their religion inportant? If those things are not important in your life why do you have them? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 8, 2008 5:31 PM:

" (he's a christian, i would think you'd be ecstatic about that)

On the contrary bob, Obama's a christian, I would think you'd be berating him about that.

So why aren't you, bob? "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:18 PM:

" Fb....

"he's a christian, i would think you'd be ecstatic about that. "

Obama's been really good with words and I've not seen any substantial actions from him through his entire "career"...I've only seen "positioning" with him with what he's done.

Actions speak louder than words, especially if you're a christian, and so does character. "

Dancer21490 wrote on Dec 8, 2008 8:48 PM:

" Ok, So the first comment medic57 wrote aggrivated me to the point of no end. Let's just get this out of the way, I'm 18 and yes everyone is going to say your a child you dont know what your talking about blah blah blah. I was brought up in a home where there was no religous upbringing, i am an atheist, i dont really care who knows it either. I have ethic's and morals and i didn't get them from going to church and saying PRAISE GOD every sunday either. So anyone who thinks that going to church and having God in your life makes you a better person or better then anyone else who doesn't, is sadly mistaken. My Mother was the one who pushed good ethics and morals in my life, Not God, Not Jesus, Not the Virgin Mary. I'm not saying that I'm Perfect, I'm not saying i haven't stole, lied, or cheated. But who hasn't? For those who call themselves christians how many times a day do you do things that "God" would see as unworthy? You go home and pray for forgiveness, and everything is all good. Well just because some of us don't pray for forgiveness doesn't mean that we don't have morals and ethics, and you accusing us of that, in my opinion, is very unchristian like. "

caringmom wrote on Dec 8, 2008 11:26 PM:

" I don't think it has anything to do with your religious upbringing. I believe it has everything to do with parenting. Children learn what they see and hear, simple as that. "

dirktastical wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:30 AM:

" Let me start by building my credibility. I am a 20 year old male currently attending Eastern Illinois University. I was born at Sarah Bush, and lived in Windsor, IL until 1st grade. I have been a Charleston resident ever since, having graduated from CHS in 2006. I am currently a proud member and President of my fraternity here at EIU.
I must say that I am absolutely appalled at the behavior of some of my fellow citizens posting on this website. I have been a silent reader of both articles and comments alike for a few years now, and I often find myself shaking my head in shame at the ignorance and hate conjured up and derived from the pride of grown adults from the Charleston (or surrounding) community. Did I vote for Obama? Yes, and Im proud of it, although I do not always agree with every policy he presents. Am I a Christian, Atheist, Muslim, etc? I honestly do not know. That is a debate which I have been trying to figure out my entire life, and will probably do so for the remainder of my days here. Already, I can feel myself being judged. I only ask why? There are so many good people in this world, and yet millions of these people turn their attention and faith to another religion, philosophy, or even look inward to themselves solely for guidance. Granted, evil exists, and always has, but these two basic moral concepts, good and evil, have and always will continue to exist in the hearts of man, religion nonwithstanding. Such is the way of the world. For those of you out there who make daily comments on this website, I cant say I understand the hobby, but good for you. Debate, criticize, examine things; SPREAD and GAIN knowledge. But remember, there is always more to be learned, so keep an open mind. In the book of knowledge, the Christian Bible, the Torah, the Koran, and all other religious texts are only individual chapters. There is so much to be learned of not only all the unique peoples and cultures of the world, but of the world itself. Why shut your eyes in ignorance to another persons thoughts and feelings when you can learn, understand, and sometimes even change the mind of another? I dont know if all of you out there are cranky old men, long-winded former housewives, middle-aged fathers, successful businesswomen, or young adults like myself. But I can say that the vast majority of posters out there sound to me like absolute children; the ignorant, childish, and perhaps cruelest of all. "

The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 2:17 AM:

" The assumption that religion is the basis of morality is a strenuously spread bit of theological propaganda. It is spread so strenuously because people are always in danger of finding out that it isnt true.
Fundamentalist Christians dont obey God because they think he is good. They tremble before him because they think he is omnipotent. They do not call themselves God-inspired Christians, do they? They call themselves God-fearing Christians.
No moral philosophy at work there. You wouldnt call the cowering subjects of a tyrant moral, would you?
In the Book of Joshua, to take one example, God orders the Hebrews to slaughter every man, woman and child in the land of Canaan. What a moral inspiration that God is, eh?
Far from having any exclusive claim to morality, Judeo-Christian religion often has nothing to do with morality or even works against it, as during the Spanish Inquisition an the Crusades.
Humans have values not because their values are divine, but only because of their natures as thinking mortal beings beings who live or die, together with their fellows, based on the rationality or irrationality of their choices. That is the basis of human morality, and it arises not from any ancient book of myths but from empathy, from the childs recognition that other people can be hurt the way he can be hurt. From that beginning, weve filled whole libraries with thoughtful, philosophical explorations of how humans should live. "

The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 8:51 AM:

" Those who do right only out of fear of punishment, a category that sadly includes many Christians, have the moral development of children. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:12 AM:

" Neocon I am amazed, you know there are no absolutes, God'd or otherwise. Even the Old and New Testament are in disagreement over what is right and wrong, do you take an eye for an eye or do you turn the other cheek. If one depends on the Bible as ones guide one will be a very confused person and unable to live in this brave new century. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:16 AM:

" Well written dirktastical. Keep on speaking up. Knowledge is what IT is all about. If you haven't read Siddhartha yet I suggest you do. I first read it when I was 20. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:27 AM:

" Your question Mr. Vanatta is a good one, How does on know what is right, what is wrong, what should be done in any specific instance? You read and you learn-- you read about ALL the worlds religions, you read their Sacred Texts, you read the writings of our GREAT philosophers and theologians, the wordsmiths of our own era, you study science, history, art, civics, psychology, AND you begin to UNDERSTAND how the world works, how people work, you begin to make connections, discover similarities and commonalities, AND YOU make the decisions. Not because you are afraid of unknown Gods, or public humiliation, or ridicule. You make the decision because YOU have learned what is right and what isn't. One last thing, the Bible is not the word of God, it is written by MEN who claim that it is the word of God. There is a BIG difference. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:29 AM:

" Caring Mom I agree with you 100%. It is amazing to me that the single, MOST important job in our and any society requires no education, no special training, no licensing or certification. What's the job? It is the job of a parent. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:36 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta you know Science is not a religion. It isn't "faith" based, nor does it bow down at any alter or worship any GOD. You also know that Gnosticism is not a religion. AND you also know that I was talking about the Pew research poll, referring to the results that show.....well folks should check the results for themselves. This was a very detailed study lots of VERY INTERESTING information about the condition of religion in the US. Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. What is MOST IMPORTANT to me Mr. Vanatta is LEARNING, KNOWLEDGE, and I dare say I find it all VERY INTERESTING. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:39 AM:

" You also wrote well Dancer21490. Keep speaking up. This is the point I have been pushing for two years now. It isn't what we profess to believe in, it is our everyday actions, how we treat our fellow man...that is all that matters in the end. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:44 AM:

" Oh Dancer2149 thank you so much for posting on here you are just the perfect example of what I have been writing about and what Susan Humphreys loves so much relativism. You admit you have lied stole and cheated and yet you say you are ethical and moral really! You are a perfect confirmation of the truth of the results of the Josephson Institute survey. You lie steal cheat and yet you say you are better than most people. And you are bragging about it, that too is amazing. What was your mothers standards for good ethics and morals were they just hers? Were you ever disciplined for lying stealing cheating at home? Nearly all criminals think they are justified in what they done. Just as you think you are justified in lying cheating and stealing. You have the idea that what you do is OK just because you think it is. You have a lot to learn (only 18 just a teenager and your blah blah blah sounds more like a 5 year old) the sad thing is you are not going to learn anything to help your ethical morality deficiencies at school. So what do you mean we are accusing you of that? You have admitted it? Take a look at your product Susan.
I am a Christian and I know I am not perfect. I also know that the lying cheating and stealing I have done is wrong by Gods standards and I need forgiveness for it because my sins have been against God. That is Gods specialty He forgives sin. Dancer just because you claim to be an atheist does not get rid of God, He is still there on His throne and in control, He will judge you by His standards and He has a right to. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 9:59 AM:

" Dancer 2149, you say you are an atheist and you dont care who knows it. You indicate by that statement that you know it is wrong but you dont care. You dont care Dancer? Is there anything you really care about? Dancer if you have never been to church, never studied the Bible, your mother never taught you about the Bible or Christianity, then how do you know what is unchristianlike? "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:23 AM:

" Survey shows disturbing lack of ethics among teens

BREAKING NEWS REPORTS SHOW DISTURBING LACK OF ETHICS AMONG ILLINOIS DEMOCRATS! "

ed miller wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:34 AM:

" Up late last night TQ?

I beg to differ. You seem to make the argument that religion has nothing to do with morals. Pretty much from the beginning of recorded history, man has had some sort of organized religion. Most of those religions have taught negative repercussions for transgressions against fellow man. I believe our current morals have a lot to do with the religions of our ancient ancestors. Ancient man was taught that killing, stealing etc. would bring punishment from some ethereal being. I believe these religious beliefs laid the groundwork for civilized societies. The actual existence of God, The Devil, or evolution is irrelevant here, but I think the world was probably better off with religion than without. Yes, there has been evil committed in the name of religion but throughout time, no one has done more to help the downtrodden than the churches. Even today, when many people think religions are a superstition, imagine life without organizations such as The Salvation Army, The YMCA, and Habitat for Humanity. You can criticize organized religions, but most of the faults are with people who use it to their advantage, not with religion itself. "

The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:38 AM:

" Here, by the way, are just a few of the Christian terrorist groups that serve as moral beacons for you:

Aryan Nations
Army of God
Christian Patriots
Ku Klux Klan
Lambs of Christ
National Liberation Front of Tripura
Nagaland Rebels
Guardians of the Cedars
Phalangist Militia
Russian National Unity
Russian National Socialists
Tsar Lazar Guard
White Eagles
God's Army, Burma
Sons of Freedom, Canada
The Lord's Resistance Army, Uganda
Iron Guard
Provisional Irish Republican Army.
Official IRA
Irish National Liberation Army (also known as the Catholic Reaction Force)
Irish People's Liberation Organisation
Continuity IRA
Real IRA
Ulster Volunteer Force
Ulster Defence Association
Loyalist Volunteer Force
Red Hand Commandos
Ulster Resistance "

dj1956 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:44 AM:

" When H.Potter and S.Humphrey's and Question are all busy putting down the television evangelists...they totally ignore the fact that there are thousands and thousands of wonderful, pastors in this country, trying to do the work of God for His people, and trying against great odds to help more people "know" Him.
We "did" to take God out of schools..
and we "are" paying the price for a lack of any moral upbringing in children of the last couple of decades...in school, and apparently in a lot of homes.
I would say that, along with the outrageous programs on television and movies, as well as the other stuff out there, these kids are just desensitized to the point that they see no wrong in lying, cheating, and anything else they might venture to do that is wrong. "

Explorer wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:44 AM:

" Religion really doesn't play a role in it. Just look at our leaders and the media. Both sides of the isle are as corrupt as can be and the media turns it into a press parade. We need to keep making examples of people like Blago (I'd say Spitzer as well, but then the media made the prostitute a star). If we show our kids that to lie, cheat, and steal doen't get you ahead in this world anymore, I think that will begin to solve the problem. "

The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:46 AM:

" Ed, good people do good things and bad people do bad things. But to make good people do bad things, you need religion. "

The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 10:51 AM:

" "Up late last night TQ?"
---
That's right, EM. I got thinking about how dangerous religious fanatics are, and couldn't sleep. "

ed miller wrote on Dec 9, 2008 11:03 AM:

" Hey TQ, make a list of all of the non-christian evil people and see which list is longer.

BTW, just because a group claims to be Christian, it doesn't mean they are. I forgot you voted for Obama and might be susceptible to believe claims with no action to back them up. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 11:33 AM:

" dirktastical, thank you for posting also it is good to hear from the younger people. It is good to hear you voted so many young people do not.
I must say that I am absolutely appalled at the behavior of some of the fraternities in Charleston, so bad that bands quit coming to the homecoming parades. I hope yours is not one that behaves that way.
I too shake my head at the hate displayed in these posts. Much of it by ones who are ashamed to attach their name to it so they feel free to become as hateful as possible with childish petty name calling mostly by the ones who claim a high level of education and yet resort to that childishness. Have you noticed that most of the hatred is directed towards Christians and Christianity? That seems to be the intent of many people today even to the point of trying to criminalize the same faith of the majority of our founding fathers.
One thing that you are debating and you can settle in your mind is the question of if you are a Christian. If you are a Christian you can be sure you would know it.
I didnt understand your statement, There are so many good people in this world, and yet millions of these people turn their attention and faith to another religion, philosophy, or even look inward to themselves solely for guidance. What do you mean another religion or .? Another as opposed to what?
You do seem to understand the concept that there is good and evil in this world but I would have to ask you that aside from the God of the Bibles standard for good and evil how do you judge what is good and what is evil? Everyone seems to have their own standard and really no one except the Creator God of the world has the ability the authority or the right to set those standards. It is the determined goal of most higher educational institutions to establish it as fact that a Creator God does not exist and they have been able to do that without any credible evidence to prove evolution by controlling the education of young people by not allowing any dissenting opinion to the hypothesis of evolution. Evolution is as much a faith based theory as any religion. If evolution were true there would be an abundance of transitional fossil forms to prove it or at least a few would be found but as it is despite enormous taxpayer funded research not one legitimate transitional fossil has been found. If as much taxpayer money was spent to try to prove the Bible true as has been spent trying to prove it not true there would be few unbelievers. PBS, NASA, federal grants to universities fund anti Biblical research.
You have exhorted us to keep an open mind and that would be a good recommendation for yourself as you listen to all the biased one-sided unfounded claims against Christianity and the Bible.
Your last sentence seems to be incomplete, and perhaps cruelest of all which one is cruelest of all? "

The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 11:37 AM:

" "BTW, just because a group claims to be Christian, it doesn't mean they are."
----
Tell me, EM, were the Crusaders Christians? How about the witch burners? Was the Spanish Inquisition Catholic? And don't forget how Jesus guaranteed your riches in the Omega scam.
As soon as organized Christian crimes and atrocities are exposed, you define them as "non-Christian." How convenient, as Church Lady would say. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 11:47 AM:

" Looks like Obama's Illinois political machine is giving Christians a bad name today.

Oh those evil corrupt Obama Illinois Democrats! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:28 PM:

" Hey Ed you got to remember that TQ even thinks Barack Hussein Obama is a Christian. So why isn't he on that list? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:29 PM:

" First of all DJ1956 if God is omnipresent than how could anyone take him out of schools? Wise men took the teaching about the Christian God/Christianity/all Gods out of schools because this is a very diverse country and good Christians couldn't or wouldn't allow students to learn about ALL the worlds religions, they only wanted to promote their own. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:32 PM:

" Second DJ we are paying the price for the lack of any moral/ethical instruction, which has been pointed out. Again we can blame Christians for refusing to allow secular teachings of ethics, they only wanted their religious views taught. OR we can quit this blame game and start addressing the issue, what needs to be done to remedy the situation. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:39 PM:

" You bet I am proud to see young people speak up Mr. Vanatta. Now I can't claim any responsibility for teaching them to have a broad understanding and respect for others, that obviously has come from their parents and shows in what they have written. In this day and age you can learn the basic teaching of Christianity and what is un-Christian from a variety of sources, and these online comments are a prime example of one of those sources--which is why I have set out to "stir the pot" and bring all the hate, fear, and misinformation out into the open. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:47 PM:

" I agree with you Mr. Miller, religion does have something to do with morality and ethics--it is just that it isn't always a positive influence on those topics. From the beginning of time religion has served four purposes. One of those purposes has been to provide rules to govern a groups behavior so the members can live in some sort of harmony and prosper. All of the worlds religions have such rules, from dietary laws, to concepts about sexual behavior, lying, cheating, murder....and there are many similarities between their rules. The issue becomes one of deciding what rules written 2000 years ago in the case of Christianity or much longer in the case of the other great religions are still valid and EFFECTIVE in this modern era and which rules need to be modernized and updated to better meet the needs of people today. AND I must add what rules can most people agree on, that are good for the Jew and Gentile, the Buddhist and Atheist, the Muslim and the Methodist! "

ed miller wrote on Dec 9, 2008 2:44 PM:

" TQ,

The people behind most of those events were motivated by greed and power. Some of the participants might have thought they were doing the work of God, when in fact that was not the case. This has happened throughout history. The same people who want to label all Christians with a few nut cases are the same ones who cry about labeling all Muslim's as terrorists.

As long as we are making generalizations, let me try...

All Chicago Area Politicians are lying crooks.

Richard Daley
George Ryan
Rod Blagojevich
Barak Obama???? "

ed miller wrote on Dec 9, 2008 2:56 PM:

" Ms Humphreys,

I think the core values of many mainstream religions are similar. It's a slippery slope when people try to "modernize" religions. Many people try to interpret religions as to be more convenient for them and their lifestyles. I don't think that is right. Obviously, the ten commandments didn't mention internet p0rn, but just because something isn't mentioned or may seem antiquated, it doesn't change the fact that we all know the difference between right and wrong. "

Becky wrote on Dec 9, 2008 3:03 PM:

" Did anyone think that maybe the study turned out this way because our children are finally telling us the truth? That maybe they are more honest than the youth of the past? I remember there were many children who wanted to cheat on their tests when I was young. I remember lying to get away with something or not get caught. I remember bullies beating up younger children in school. I remember kids stealing, lying, cheating and being just mean when I was young. I don't think our youth are any different. Just more honest about it...which is a good thing. "

Becky wrote on Dec 9, 2008 3:09 PM:

" "the Bible and Christianity it still remains as the best ethical guide in existence"

WOW! Have you ever really read the Bible Jon? There's murder, incest, bigotry, war, adultry, taking bribes, fornication, slavery and all this is on demand by Jehovah. Not to mention torture, killing babies, jealousy, anger, hostility. You name it, God did it. And yet, it's the best ethical guide in existance? How? "

dj1956 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 3:32 PM:

" SHumphreys: There is just no need to try to explain these things to you....and so I won't. It would be a waste of my time. "

dj1956 wrote on Dec 9, 2008 3:51 PM:

" SHumphreys: After reading the last sentence of your post, as far out as it sounds, for once I agree with you. We do need to forget the blame game and do something to help the kids..the future of the country. "

Rotty wrote on Dec 9, 2008 4:11 PM:

" Soapbox Sue, have you been sterilized yet?
I bet you even play with an ouija board, don't ya?
Survey says, doo doo doo doo....!
LOL!

Ruh Roh, INCOMING!!!!
LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 9, 2008 4:21 PM:

" Another thread hijacked by the gasbag thumpers. "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 9, 2008 4:37 PM:

" Every day it is all I can do to muster the strength NOT to play into shumphreys' hand by quoting a line from a 1970 vintage SNL Weekend Update with Chevy Chase and Jane Curtin.

Get thee behind me . . . . "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 9, 2008 4:38 PM:

" Mr. Miller I hate to tell you this but people have been "modernizing", changing, religion from the beginning. The Christianity of today is not the Christianity of James, he should have had a good idea of what Jesus had in mind since he was a desciple and Jesus brother. The Christianity of today is not the Christianity of Paul, he never even met Jesus. The Christianity of Pretestantism is not the same as Caholicism or Eastern Orthodox or Mormanism or..... There are hardly two people on these pages that will agree on what is right and what is wrong. For example is it right to spread lies and misinformation about a political candidate in order to get your candidate elected? There are many here who think so and do just that. Is it right or wrong for a president to lie to the American public? What if the lie is about an illicit sexual affair or a case of national security or justification for taking a nation to war. Nixon is quoted as saying, "if the president does it it is legal". There are many here who would disagree. Is it right for a student to "tattle" on a friend? What if that friend is threatening to commit suicide or take a gun to school? Is it right to break the "code of silence" so valued by police forces, the military, the mafia, street gangs and childhood buddies? What if you boss is cooking the books or illegally dumping toxic waste or abusing prisoners at Guantanamo Bay? Right and wrong aren't simple concepts. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 5:10 PM:

" Speaking of hijacking and a lack of ethics:

I was deeply sadden to see Harry's vicious response to my truce offer over on (of all places) the thread about the death of a 13-month-old girl.

I'm very disappointed that he would stoop to such a callous display in a most inappropriate forum.

Obviously, Harry has some underlying issues he is grappling with today.

Take a little time off and get a hold of yourself Harry. You're much better than all of this. I have faith in you.

Your friend- BDD ;-) "

The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 5:49 PM:

" A transparent and ludicrous ploy, Doggy Doh. Harry is 10 times the person you will ever be. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 9, 2008 5:53 PM:

" Doh the blog hog is afraid someone might miss his stupid response to me, so I guess he's going to spread his usual manure infested crap on here too. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:08 PM:

" I was deeply sadden to see Harry's vicious response to my truce offer over on (of all places) the thread about the death of a 13-month-old girl.

---------------

I think it might be a tad late for you to be trolling for sympathy, Doh. Most people on here are very much aware of your on going vicious attacks on anyone disagreeing with your idiotic ideas. You can step down from your disingenuous high horse anytime. Oh wait, I forgot, you can't do that can't do that, you're being a broken record and all. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:30 PM:

" Harry, I'm not sure if your reply was directed towards me, but it probably was (based on your past accusations) and in that case I'm afraid your madness is worse than I originally suspected.

And I'm at a lose to explain Questions timely echo of the identical neurosis.

Could I be so bold as to suggest to you, a bit of personal research involving a publication entitled DSM-IV-TR.

It might help you to understand your paranoid and (might I say) conspiratorial tendencies.

Oh and.... please do share it with Question. Okay Harry?

Your Friend BDD :-) "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:32 PM:

" Folks-

I would like to apologize for Harry's inexplicable meltdown in here tonight.

Is there a doctor in the house? "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:54 PM:

" Looks like Doh is going to go back to his inane attempts at analyzing his fellow posters. I remember him doing that a while back, and it was fun watching him make a fool of himself. Go for it blue smurf. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 6:57 PM:

" shumphreys, You said, Paul, he never even met Jesus Oh contrare Susan Humphres Paul did personally meet Jesus the resurrected Jesus and learned under His direct teaching and it changed his life from a persecutor of Christians to the Christian Apostle to the Gentiles. It is a requirement for an Apostle of Jesus Christ that they had to be called personally and directly by Jesus Christ. The Christianity of today is the same as the Christianity of that day it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If it is not the same it is not Christianity which is where you are so confused and why Mormonism is not Christianity. You have once again revealed you do not understand the Bible or Christianity so why dont you just quit trying to explain it to everyone.
You did make a good point though, There are hardly two people on these pages that will agree on what is right and what is wrong. That is because when it is left up to people everyone has a different idea of right and wrong and people will never agree. There is only one reliable source of right and wrong the Bible and it has never changed. You have just proved that point very well thank you Suzie. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:02 PM:

" I wish someone would do a survey showing the disturbing lack of ethics among posters. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:25 PM:

" Please Harry, for the sake of your own well being-

get some help.

You'll be in my prayers big guy. ;-) "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:26 PM:

" (I wish someone would do a survey showing the disturbing lack of ethics among posters.)

Yep. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:38 PM:

" BTW Harry,

Please limit your attacks on me to threads OTHER than the one dealing with the death of 13-month-old girl.

I see you posted yet another attack on me in that thread.

Please follow my lead, Harry, and leave our petty difference out of such a poignant and heart-wrenching thread.

There is plenty of room in here for your spurless assaults and accusations.

What do you say, Harry?

Is it a deal? "

ed miller wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:56 PM:

" The Question wrote on Dec 9, 2008 5:49 PM:
" Harry is 10 times the person you will ever be. "

Harry got some props from his lap dog. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 9, 2008 8:55 PM:

" (Harry got some props from his lap dog)

I always viewed there relationship in the reverse:

Question is Scut Farkus

And Harry is Grover Dill

I occasionally, am thrust into the roll of Ralphie Parker as I regrettably am forced to administer a beat down on the both of them.

Ah....such is life.

Sooner or later, we'll all shoot our eye out. "

dirktastical wrote on Dec 9, 2008 11:49 PM:

" I can say with complete honesty that a vast majority of posters on here are an embarrassment to our community.
I'm 20, and I'm telling you to grow up.
Maybe you won't agree with someone else on something; be it politics, religion, or any other matter. But that does not mean you should attack another with pathetic sarcasm and embarrassing attempts at humor that probably were not funny when you graduated back in '79. Do something constructive with your time. At the very least, research your opinions and promote facts, with sources cited. There's something this unethical youth has managed to learn. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 7:43 AM:

" Then why don't you give it up Mr. Right and address the topics at hand. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 7:44 AM:

" Grow up Rotty, I had my tubes tied when I turned 40. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 7:53 AM:

" Sorry Mr. Vanatta if the Christianity of today were the same as the Gospel of Jesus the Jewish law would have been followed to a T. Jesus was a devout and practicing Jew and expected others to follow that tradition. As to Paul, my comment remains, he never met Jesus, claiming to have met the risen Jesus doesn't make it so, he could have seen the Devil in disguise, which some of his opponents assumed that he had. The first schism in the "church" was over the issue of following James as the successor of Jesus teachings or Paul who wasn't. Once again Mr. Vanatta you have demonstrated very little knowledge about the religion you profess to believe in. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 10, 2008 8:08 AM:

" hey dirktastical-

stop attacking people with your pathetic sarcasm .

lol "

father bob wrote on Dec 10, 2008 9:33 AM:

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 7:02 PM:
" I wish someone would do a survey showing the disturbing lack of ethics among posters. """"

you'd rank right up there johnny "

Rotty wrote on Dec 10, 2008 10:42 AM:

" dirktastical the magnificent has spoken!
Shouldn't that be dorktastic?
LOL!

I'd truely take to heart the contradictions of a moniker that sounds like a character from Dragon's Lair.
LOL!

Soapbox, Thank God you can't reproduce any longer, I'll sleep better at nights, knowing this.
Thank You!
LOL!

I see you didn't deny playing with an ouija board.
Perhaps a visit or scheduling an appointment, with certain family members of yours, is in order.

This deriding dog will be rooting for your expedient recovery, all the way.
LOL! "

sapient wrote on Dec 10, 2008 11:01 AM:

" Susan: Your claim that Paul never met Jesus is, in my humble opinion, improbable.. Paul and Jesus lived at the same time, were in the same city , most likely at the same time (Jerusalem), Paul (Saul) was an eyewitness at the stoning of Stephen shortly after Christ's ascension. Since Paul was a pharisee (Acts 23:6) he spent much time at the temple where Jesus also spent time when He was in Jerusalem, so I would guess that circumstances would indicate that it is highly probable that Paul and Jesus were familiar with each other. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 10, 2008 11:16 AM:

" (" Grow up Rotty, I had my tubes tied when I turned 40. ")

I.....did.....not.....need.....to......know.......that.

*urp* "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 10, 2008 11:32 AM:

" ( dirktastical the magnificent has spoken!
Shouldn't that be dorktastic?
LOL!)

ROFLMAO!

Rotty's da man! "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 10, 2008 1:04 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 7:43 AM: " Then why don't you give it up Mr. Right and address the topics at hand. "

Alright, you're on, sweetie! Give me your pet topic. "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 10, 2008 1:06 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 7:43 AM: " Then why don't you give it up Mr. Right and address the topics at hand. "

That is total crap and you know it. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 10, 2008 2:00 PM:

" you'd rank right up there johnny "

---------

I agree, but he's still not a bad as Doggy Doh. LOL! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 10, 2008 2:14 PM:

" 2 Peter 3(NKJV)
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvationas also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 10, 2008 2:24 PM:

" So Susan you are saying that you can believe in and accept the supernatural power and existence of the devil but you cannot Jesus the Son of God.
Even the devil disagrees with you on that. "

The Question wrote on Dec 10, 2008 3:26 PM:

" "Even the devil disagrees with you on that."
---
So you talk to the devil now, too, eh, Vanatta? My, you do get around. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 3:38 PM:

" Sorry Sapient "Paul did not know Jesus, and unlike the Gospels, he did not show any great concern about what Jesus may have said or done. We get no information about Jesus from Paul. " "The Jesus Papers" Michael Baigent published 2006. That is just one source of information about Paul there are many others. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 3:44 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta I haven't said anything about believing in or accepting supranatural powers of the Devil or anyone else for that matter. You get some very strange ideas. I DO ACCEPT completely the reality that man has a tremendous power to self-deceive (and to deceive others) if that is what he chooses to do. That power is fully self-inflicted. "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 10, 2008 5:50 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 3:38 PM: ""The Jesus Papers" Michael Baigent published 2006. That is just one source of information about Paul there are many others. "

Yes, let's quote Michael Baigent as an authority on religion. Let's look at those "Jesus Papers" ol' Mike wrote . . .

1) Hershel Shanks, reviewing The Jesus Papers for Biblical Archaeology Review, commented on the "foolishness of its central thesis", noting how Baigent had seen papyri written in Aramaic, a language that he did not understand, yet was able to say that what he saw dated from "about A.D. 34"

2)Kevin McClure, reviewing the book for Fortean Times commented how the author was unable to obtain photographs of the said papyri, adding that "Baigent records no further effort to investigate these supposedly amazing documents, and appears not to have approached any academic body or community for help".

3)Baigent also appeared on the Today Show in an interview with Lester Holt, in which he claimed that he had seen the papers referred to in the title. Baigent says the papers themselves prove that Jesus existed after his crucifixion, and therefore he could not have been put to death. This completely negates a resurrection, an event that Baigent once supported.

What a freaking authority!!!!! "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 10, 2008 5:56 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 10, 2008 3:38 PM: " Sorry Sapient "Paul did not know Jesus, and unlike the Gospels, he did not show any great concern about what Jesus may have said or done. We get no information about Jesus from Paul. "

What? Are you saying this with a straight face? Are you reading the same bible that the Christians read? We get nothing BUT information about Jesus from Paul - that is if we're reading the same book.

C'mon . . . stop joking around with all of us . . . I'm expecting Alan Funt to jump out of my computer screen and tell me I'm on Candid Camera.

Your "reasoning" and "authorities" and "thinking" and "logic" are so convuluted that NOBODY could make this stuff up! Have you thought about writing fiction?????? "

Rotty wrote on Dec 10, 2008 6:24 PM:

" Thanks BDD!
LOL!

You're not doing too bad yourself.
Keep up the great work!
Knock'em Dead!
LOL! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 10, 2008 6:50 PM:

" Susan Humphreys, you just stated at 3:44 PM,I haven't said anything about believing in or accepting supranatural powers of the Devil or anyone else for that matter when just this morning at 7:53 AM you said, he could have seen the Devil in disguise. Now how could you believe the devil could disguise himself as a light to blind Paul and appear to Paul unless you believe the devil has supernatural powers? You believe he does and so do I. You just said he does.
Susan would the devil appear to Paul and use his supernatural powers to change him into the most dynamic evangelist for the gospel of Jesus Christ ever? Would the Devil inspire Paul to write the 13 epistles of the New Testament? Would the devil have empowered Paul to establish the churches of believers in Jesus Christ all over Asia Galatia and Macedonia?
Susan would the devil empower Paul to stop persecuting and killing Christians and become an Apostle of Jesus Christ?
The Pharisees made the same accusation you are making they said of Jesus, He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons. Jesus answered, How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Susan you were not saying self-deceiving by the power of man you were saying deceiving by the power of the devil. It is on the record. "

thirtysomething wrote on Dec 10, 2008 8:50 PM:

" do they really lie, cheat and steal more than past generation or are they admitting more than past generations. I am a nurse in long term care. I would have never thought my grandparnts and people there age were capable of doing "bad things". The stories they tell would shock you. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 11, 2008 1:25 PM:

" Hey Vanatta, don't look now, but your hero Bush just announced that he doesn't take the bible literally. I guess that now that he doesn't need the thumpers any longer, he's free to speak about his thoughts honestly.

Looks like Bush took the loony zealots for a ride after all. Perhaps the holy roller tongue speaking Palin will come through for them in a few years.

Think of how embarrassing it would be to have a president that was so stupid she thought the earth was only a few thousand years old.

And how old do you think the earth is, Jon? Just curious. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 11, 2008 2:40 PM:

" Hey Harry don't look now but Barry Obama said he hears the voice of God.

Do you think it sounds like Rev Wright?

"America's chickensssssss.....are coming hoooooome.......to roosssssssssst!" "

injustice85 wrote on Dec 11, 2008 3:41 PM:

" they act out on a society that doesn't know how to communicate with them and school systems that don't accomodate their changing minds and needs for independence "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 11, 2008 8:24 PM:

" Hey Potter, Im glad you asked me that I didnt think you cared. Now Harry you already know that unlike Bush and Newsweek I literally believe the Bible. If you add up all the generations in the Bible it comes out to rounding it off about 6,000 years. Now there are a lot of us who think that is true. However just us thinking it or believing it does not make it true. The real test is that the evidence we observe goes along with 6,000 years a whole lot better than the figures the old age earth people come up with. There are other things to take into consideration here not to overlook the colossal and well-known record of the old earth people to prevaricate and manipulate evidence to the point of being fraudulent and they change their minds every day. Another thing that tells me old age evolutionists are wrong is their fear. Their fear of anyone hearing any other theory than theirs and then they continually try to state theirs as fact when we all know it is a theory based on faith. In other words their fear tells me they know they are wrong. So Harry you and Susan have no legitimate evidence to support your theory so why dont you both just keep telling me about your ever changing faith and I will tell you about my never changing faith. Mine is in Jesus Christ and the Truth of the Bible and it is proving to be true more and more every day.
Harry I dont think you know what you are talking about when you say Sarah Palin speaks in tongues. I understand she has distanced herself from a church she was involved in that tried to speak tongues. Do you know what speaking in tongues means Harry? I doubt it. It is a real thing but I doubt very much if there is anyone today who does it correctly. Apparently they werent doing it correctly at the church in Corinth either because Paul told them how they should be doing it. Speaking in tongues is certainly not a requirement for a Christian and obviously Sarah Palin knows that too.
Harry not all Christians are wackos like you think and also not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian Jesus said that. Hey you got wackos among people like you too how about ole Blago? "

Techno-less wrote on Dec 12, 2008 5:59 AM:

" I do agree with Mr. Vanatta that removing the Christian ethic processes from the schools and visible society has had a finger in the continuing decline of the ethics of our nation. Unfortunately this has made bringing children up in a Christian lifestyle more difficult since these children are also exposed to the voices screaming that there is no god, and that Christians are what is wrong with the world. Add to that the fact that, from what I have read, many in these comments sections seem to have predetermined ideas of how Christians are supposed to behave which are based upon little but their own biased opinions, and then critisize them for not matching up. And I have often been amused to read that they use Christian writings such as the bible to argue their biases, demonstrating that they clearly do not understand that which they are arguing with. This would be like Hitler arguing that killing six million jews was justified because they weren't living up to the teachings of the Talmud as he interpreted it.

For those screamers I say congratulations. It must be nice to be in posession of such a scapegoat. That way you can keep lying to yourselves and say that none of it is your fault. It is their fault. Finding someone to blame and trying to force public sentiment to your side was an old Nazi tactic. I would assume that you also have the cattle cars standing by, and have selected the properties you plan on picking up. It might amaze you to note that your attitudes and behaviors are falling right in line with the prophecies contained in the very book that you you use to villify its believers. It states clearly that, just before the end of days the world will turn on Christians, and the progroms and roundups will begin again. I am awstruck with the idea that even pagans, atheists, and gnostics follow the will of God whether they believe it or not. You can disbelieve, but you cannot escape. In order for the prophecies to come true, someone has to be the anti-christians. Looks like you elected yourselves for the role. Unfortunately it comes with a steep drop at the end. Enjoy the time you have left.

However, Mr. Vanatta is not quite on the money with his claim of survival of the fittest. It is a common mistake. Mention the word fittest and everybody thinks of Mr. Universe and the ability to pound everyone into the ground. In actuality it is the force of the environment that determines what is most fitting. Sometimes that means strength and cunning. And sometimes that means that you can run faster or hide better than others. It can mean that your fur is just the right shade or that you simply have certain chemicals that make you taste really bad. Fittest is whatever it is that gives you the edge so that you can mature and reproduce. God created a big, wide, wonderful world, and the intelligence of the physical laws that operate it are a wonder to behold. There are many who believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and that part of the processes used by him we clumsily try to describe in theories known as evolution. These two concepts are not exclusive of each other.

When I was younger I accepted the strait 24/7 creation week, and was impressed with the idea that so much could be accomplished in such a short time. Now that I am older, I am still impressed, but my focus has changed. The idea that God took a billion years to do something and call it a day...now that is truly amazing. How could I ever have imagined an eternal being confined by time constraints? A day was whatever God chose to call it. We are the ones constrained by time.

As a final note, some questions:

Whatever made any of you think that the concept of turning the other cheek means that Christians have to put up with anything that you might want to dish out? Total nonsense and just another part of the its not my fault concept. In other words, you aren't responsible for your behavior, because Christians have to put up with you anyway. So childish.

Whatever made you think that the activities of those hiding themselves in the Christian ethic while misbehaving means that the entire group is faulty. When politicians misuse their position and power, you blame them. When criminals abuse the laws and activities of the judicial system, you blame them. When a teacher crosses the line and abuses students, you don't condemn all teachers. When individuals calling themselves Christian behave in a manner opposing the ethics of the group, you blame the group as an whole. And you call yourselves more fair?

Is the group faulty, or is it just a basic attempt to remove the comparison that, deep down inside, you know you fail to live up to? Just knock them down to your level so you don't end up looking so bad. Or better yet, eliminate them completely so that you can end up looking like the best kid on the block. It has been many years since the anti-Christian battle began. I find it interesting to note how much more degenerate society has become since its onset. And how much worse things will become without it. You must be very proud of yourselves to be a part of the degenerative process. Enjoy the world you are helping to develop. And if I may borrow your tactic, I will now say, it is all your fault. "

Early Bird wrote on Dec 12, 2008 6:24 AM:

" This is the best site in the world. We learn all sort of things from the local experts such as Jon V. Today's lesson tells us that the earth is only about 6000 years old. Wow! And what do all those so called experts who actually have an education that consists of more than one book know?

And Jon, you need to do your research on Palins religious background. She only switched to a more liberal brand of church after she decided to go political. Jon, now days with the Internet, information is at your fingertips, so perhaps you shouldn't assume that your fellow posters are ignorant about anything. That goes for the tenants of any religious denomination such as the Pentecostal church too.

And I suppose that you go along with her theory that our troops are doing God's work in Iraq too.

How about it, are we doing God's work in Iraq? "

Techno-less wrote on Dec 12, 2008 6:59 AM:

" Sooner or later people arguing against Christianity get around to the Spanish Inquisition. You really are not playing fair since you automatically leave out the other half of the story. And that half is the Reformation.

The corruption and cruelty that had invaded the Catholic Church, which was basically the only Christian religion available at the time, is well documented. The church was the government, and its politicians knew how to abuse their power. And, shades of modern issues, priesthoods could be purchased, pre-school children were appointed church leaders, and money and position changed hands frequently. Anyone complaining was labeled a heretic against God. The situation became so bad that the masses revolted, the church went through a cleansing process, and Protestantism was initiated by those who removed themselves from the group they found offensive, quite often at the expense of their lives. Hence the modern day conflict between Catholics and Protestants. As the addage says, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Plus we now have our modern day attitude that church and state should be separate entities, not to prevent religious displays in public, but to prevent cruel individuals from making use of a judicial system to impose a state religion to their advantage. Not to mention our concepts of cruel and unusual punishment, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and many other basic human rights identified as a result of the abuses exemplified by the Spanish Inquisition. Our Christian forefathers did not pull those concepts out of a hat. They had history to guide them.

Now you use the example of the inquisition to condemn the descendants of those who successfully struggled against it to begin with. I suppose next you will blame the WWll allies for the damages made to Europe by the axis members. Or better yet, how about we argue that the holocost was actually the fault of the Jews.

You will just have to excuse me as I find fault with your revisionist history as argument. It does fit in quite well with your revisionist views of Christianity. So much for open mindedness. "

Techno-less wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:18 AM:

" Mr Right ...have you thought about wrting fiction?

I seem to remember reading something about a book she was plugging somewhere on this web site recently. I think maybe she already did. "

Techno-less wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:27 AM:

" Paul didn't know Jesus nor did he show any concern about what he might have said or done????

Even as inept as I can be in understanding Bible scriptures, I was able to notice that Paul, or Saul in his previous life, spent quite a bit of energy trying to obliterate the teachings of Jesus and the followers who carried on with them. He managed to bring down quite a few before he reached his personal state of "enlightenment."

That would seem to indicate that he both knew of Jesus, and cared quite a bit about him.

You are tripping over your tongue again, dear. Kinda makes the rest of your arguments suspect, doesn't it? "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 12, 2008 9:16 AM:

" Techno-less wrote on Dec 12, 2008 7:18 AM: " Mr Right ...have you thought about wrting fiction?

I seem to remember reading something about a book she was plugging somewhere on this web site recently. I think maybe she already did. "

I'm not sure I understsand what you mean by "writing fiction"? Would you be kind enough to explain? Thank you. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 12, 2008 9:55 AM:

" (How about it, are we doing God's work in Iraq?)

We must be Early Blurb. Barry Hussein Obama (who hears the voice of God) isn't going to remove American troops anytime soon....or maybe....ever.

Oh, and, Barry's committing the U.S. to launch a nuclear attack on Iran if they launch on Israel. Any problems with that Early? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 12, 2008 10:26 AM:

" Early Bird asked, How about it, are we doing God's work in Iraq?

that is a very good question, are you asking it because you sincerely wonder if we are or do just think the question is a clever trap? That is what I would like to know.

There is one thing I know for sure, Gods will shall be done. The question we need to ask is are we working within His will or are we working against His will. One good indicator is to listen to the comments and reports of those who have been there and who are there. In my humble opinion we have far too many people that are more concerned with opposing God than trying to understand how to work within His will.

Another thing I know is that God many times uses corrupt leaders and nations to accomplish His will and continue His big plan. Lets just look at the historical facts God used Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greeks (Alexander), the Romans and when they had served His purpose they fell into the dustbowls of history. Where are we in Gods will? God made one thing very clear those who help and support Israel will be blessed and those who oppose and persecute Israel will suffer greatly even to destruction. All these things I have just mentioned were told ahead of time in the Bible and are historically verified. When a nation threatens Israel with annihilation and makes moves to carry out that threat then whose side should we be on? Take a look at history it pretty well answers the question. God will bless those that bless Israel and I believe I prefer Gods blessings over His judgment.

Another thing I know is that God has used people who have attained their position by deceit. If our president elect has been deceiving us and he gets by until he is inaugurated without being required to produce the evidence that he is constitutionally qualified and then it comes later that he is not it will be a judgment upon our nation that God has allowed and that as a nation we will deserve for allowing it to happen. If he has any respect for our nation and our Constitution he will show us he is qualified. He seems to want to show everyone that he is an elitist and does not have to follow the rules or the Constitution and that no one can make him do it and that he can do whatever he wants Constitution or not. I hope he can produce a legitimate certificate proving that he is indeed a natural born citizen as our Constitution requires. So why doesnt he do it? He has called those who question him garbage. If he gets by with this and turns out he is not qualified it will be because it was Gods will then when God is done using him where will our nation be in history? Will we end up like Assyria, Persia, Alexander the Great, Rome, Nazi Germany? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 12, 2008 6:50 PM:

" Techno-less wrote on Dec 12, 2008 5-59 AM:

Nice post kinda long though
Actually it is 6 24-hour days that God created the world in. You dont want to compromise that because then there are all kinds of things you will have to compromise on. For each day of creation it says ONE evening and ONE morning for each day. How many evenings and mornings are there in billions of years? Big problem! Then there is the Hebrew word yom it means one day (24 hours). God used it in Genesis 1 for each day. In the Ten Commandments it says in Exodus 20, six days (the same Hebrew word yom) shall you labor and do all your work. Well if yom means billions of years thats gonna be a long time to work isnt it. But then youd get a billion years off. Big problem! Dont try to compromise the Scriptures you get in trouble. I dont like compromises just to appease the evolutionists, let them do the compromising they change their theory from day to day anyway and compromising is no problem for them and that just shows they dont have anything. They do have hope though. They hope there is no God. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:34 AM:

" Mr. Right you can also Google Saint Paul and discover lots of interesting information from a great variety of sources. You can also read Galatians, Pauls own account of his experience. Baching Christians on the head is not the same as meeting "the man" in real life. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:44 AM:

" Mr. Vanatta no wonder you can't understand the Bible you can't read or understand common English. It is possible for people to explain another persons rationality for doing something without personally accepting/believing in that rationality. Wisdom Mr. Vanatta comes from learning to see things from other peoples points of you, not from your own. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:46 AM:

" Mr. Right Baigents books are a great deal of fun. AND just like the Bible there is wisdom within the pages even if part of the book is a work of fiction. One has to learn to read critically, check multiple sources, and use common sense if one wants to gain an understanding of this world, our selves and how it all fits together. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 13, 2008 10:24 AM:

" shumphreys, whoose rationality are you trying to explain here Pauls or the Devils? "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 13, 2008 12:24 PM:

" Mr. Vanatta I will try to explain this as simply as I can, Paul claimed that he had a vision of the risen Christ and some of Pauls opponents said that he had a vision of the Devil, Doctors have speculated that he had sunstroke. Since neither of us was there, one explanation is just as possible as another and one is more likely. As I said I fully accept the reality that people have a tremendous capacity to self-deceive and to deceive others if that is what they choose to do. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 13, 2008 1:39 PM:

" 6000 years old? Surely you're joking, Jon. "

Mr. Right wrote on Dec 13, 2008 2:20 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:46 AM:

" Mr. Right Baigents books are a great deal of fun. AND just like the Bible there is wisdom within the pages even if part of the book is a work of fiction. One has to learn to read critically, check multiple sources, and use common sense if one wants to gain an understanding of this world, our selves and how it all fits together. "

I was just getting ready to pen a lengthy response regarding this and other of your posts. After thinking about what you've written, your position on other topics and what I've read about your thought process, the only thing I can come up with is

"Yeah, whatever." "

I Care wrote on Dec 13, 2008 8:35 PM:

" They are taught that crap in SCHOOL. "Your parents can NOT spank your fanny when needed tell us or call the cops" The kids look at that as they no longer have to listen to the parents" Lets see I can NOT physiclly restrain my child when throwing a temper tantrum ohhhh but they can at TLC school. You ever wonder why kids run over you at places like walmart?? Cause parents are to scared to do anything about it. But I bet NONE of mine will because here they have learnt they will get tanned if they need it. And now as a Grandfather I see my children teaching their kids the same way do as your supossed to or else. And again you can take it to the bank the next time your in somewhere and a kid throws something or runs into you that that kid is NOT my grandchild. Parents need to take back the control over their kids. Yes I think that our children are extentions of us. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 14, 2008 7:57 AM:

" There are no laws that say a parent can't spank their child.

They do not use corporal punishment at the TLC program. TLC is a public school and follows the law that bans spankings in schools.

Teachers, by law, have to report their suspicions of abuse, a spanking is not abuse, I Care.

A quick phone call to DCFS would clear up your misconceptions. "

ed miller wrote on Dec 14, 2008 1:46 PM:

" At TLC they can physically restrain students when they are unruly. That is not quite the same as paddling or swats. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 14, 2008 3:49 PM:

" At TLC they can physically restrain students when they are unruly. That is not quite the same as paddling or swats.

Mark your calendar ed, we agree on this one. lol! "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 15, 2008 1:27 PM:

" shumphreys, that wasn't simple enough yet I don't understand how Paul's opponets could have been there to see the bright light or not see it or whatever. Did Paul's opponets travel to Damascus with him? See this is just to complicated for me to understand. Maybe you better call in for some more "enlightenment" so you can explain it better. "

I Care wrote on Dec 15, 2008 2:23 PM:

" I did not say TLC could swat. And when they removed swats from schools did you notice how much kids started getting into trouble at school. And now that has esculated to where we are now. The kids lost ALL respect for those in command. My children went to school for the last 18 years, I have seen the change. If most of us older people would stop and think what would have happened to You if you told your Father or Mother NO I will NOT do that, after you was told to do something?? Now be fair dont say well I would'nt have said no answer WHY you wouldnt have said no. I cant wait for all of the RESPECT answers as I am sure I am NOT the only one that was spanked when I was small. Oh and yes you can be arrested for spanking or slapping your child. "

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 15, 2008 5:48 PM:

" The kids lost ALL respect for those in command.

Kids learn from their parents. Judging from some of your earlier comments, I would say the apple didn't fall far from the tree. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 17, 2008 9:32 AM:

" Sorry Mr. Vanatta I can't explain it more simply, claiming that God or Jesus speaks to you is not the same as having God or Jesus speak to you and how would anyone know if it was God and not Satan himself? When you read the Bible it looks more like Satan speaking through the writers than God. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 17, 2008 5:18 PM:

" If it is Satan writing I wonder why Satan comdemns Satan to the lake of fire. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 18, 2008 10:19 AM:

" To confuse you Mr. Vanatta. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 18, 2008 3:09 PM:

" It looks like satan has done a much better job of confusing you Susan however he didn't use the Bible to do it he used the upanishads. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 18, 2008 7:14 PM:

" Good comeback Mr. Vanatta. Answer one question, how do you know if it is God or the Devil whispering in your ear? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 18, 2008 7:27 PM:

" Neither God nor the devil whispers in my ear Susie God speaks to me through His written Word. "

BlueDogDemocrat wrote on Dec 18, 2008 7:44 PM:

" (Good comeback Mr. Vanatta. Answer one question, how do you know if it is God or the Devil whispering in your ear?)

Probably the same way Barry knows it's God's voice and not the devil, Susan:

"The prayer that I tell myself every night is a fairly simple one: I ask in the name of Jesus Christ that my sins are forgiven, that my family is protected and that I am an instrument of God's will. I'm constantly trying to align myself to what I think he calls on me to do. And sometimes you hear it strongly and sometimes that voice is more muted."

- Senator Barrack Obama
(who apparently hears the voice of God) "

CDB88 wrote on Dec 18, 2008 9:53 PM:

" People have always cheated... people have always lied... I am 20 years old and its hard for me to read your comments because you people do not know what it is like to grow up during this time. I agree, cheating and such is wrong... but dont judge us. This is a different world from the one you all grew up in... different world = different people. "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 19, 2008 4:01 PM:

" "I know its wrong, but don't judge us,but I will judge you people" Well whatever then! "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 19, 2008 4:40 PM:

" AND how do you know what he wrote Mr. Vanatta? Was it the Bible the Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, ... or perhaps all? "

Mama says wrote on Dec 19, 2008 9:44 PM:

" Giving teens some responsibilities and let kids know are loved goes a long way. Son age 19 taking care of me after surgery at home, has job and attends college, keeps him out of trouble.
We talk, plan meals, and he was born when I was 45. He tells others he knows he is loved and a wanted child. I am sure this helps kids growing up to realize it. We are not overly zealous religious but we believe. He treats senior citizens with dignity offering to help them. It is nice knowing in this society there are some good young people. "

shumphreys wrote on Dec 20, 2008 8:18 AM:

" To CDB88 the Times have changed. People however are still the same, have the same hopes and fears and needs as our great great grandparents had. They are still driven by the same passions and desires. Judge not that ye be not judged is a good maxim. BUT those that are unable to examine, to question, to evaluate, (to judge) in a constructive positive way will be doomed to repeat the errors of their great great grandparents. Judging isn't what is wrong, it is the purpose behind judging, how the judgment is used--to condemn and control or to honestly and fairly evaluate a situation as the first step to implementing actions that will actually improve the situation not make it worse. "

injustice85 wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:22 PM:

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Dec 9, 2008 12:28 PM:

" Hey Ed you got to remember that TQ even thinks Barack Hussein Obama is a Christian. So why isn't he on that list? "

What are you 3? You going to teach your children disrespect too? All you are doing is showing a lack of respect for a man that hasn't even had a chance yet, does that make you feel cool Mr. Vanatta? Go back to grade school "

injustice85 wrote on Dec 23, 2008 8:25 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Dec 15, 2008 5:48 PM:

" The kids lost ALL respect for those in command.

Kids learn from their parents. Judging from some of your earlier comments, I would say the apple didn't fall far from the tree. "

Here's an overlooked thought! School systems don't try anymore on top of that not to mention the fact that this town doesn't accomadate to the youth "