" The Senate bill was introduced more than 18 months ago.

Abortions are legal in all 50 states. This doesn't change that, and I doubt anything will.

This proposal merely limits states in their efforts to place limits on when women can have an abortion. Limitations could still exist, but they'd be federal limitations.

Essentially, it's a states rights issue. The proponents of the bill are suggesting that having an abortion is a legal right that should not be limited by individual states.

It's an interesting topic for discussion. Is abortion a right? Well, it is if you go by federal law. But it's a legislated right. If the federal law was to change to a ban on abortion, would this mean states could not allow an abortion? "

" Mf Fowler:
thank you for the information even though as HeinekenMan states, the bill was introduced eighteen months ago. I shall certainly write to members of Congress about the legislation. But, I suspect, you may not like what I write. Again, thank you "

" send donations to Planned parenthood. they are tax deductible.

thanks "

" As I wrote earlier, I said I thanked Mr. Fowler for his information and that I would write members of congress. Here is what I wrote.

According to a letter appearing in the Charleston Times Courier H.R. 1964 and Senate Bill S.1173 have been introduced and contain language advocating the termination of a pregnancy without government interference and the term privacy which according to the writer are words that we are not used to associating with the heavy hand of government.

I support the concept of privacy enunciated in Griswold v Connecticut (1965) and while I recognize that such scholars as Robert Bork conclude that there is no right to privacy in the Constitution, I believe he is incorrect. My belief is based on the argument advanced by Justice Douglas regarding the penumbra of rights that exist.

Thus, I support any law reduces governmental interference, whether federal, state or local.

Consequently, I shall hope that you will support the respective laws when they come up for a vote. "

" H man is right it is an interesting question, is abortion a right? There are many "rights" not spelled out in the constitution. Right to a "free" public education for example. Consequently I don't think one can argue that since abortion isn't spelled out as a right it isn't one. We all claim that we have a right to competent health care, which also isn't spelled out. Abortion is a health care issue, a decision between a woman and her doctor and no one has a "right" to interfere in such a decision. "

" FB: Why would you promote PP. They have been shown to target the black community. "

" Susan, if it is not a right spelled out in the constitution where does this right come from? God? "

" Sappy, as a former teacher I'm surprised you're not more familiar with the Constitution. Didn't you have to pass a test on it to receive your teacher's certificate?

The rights that others have referred to on this thread came from the framers of the Constitution themselves. Are you familiar with a little thing called the Bill of Rights? Do the 9th and 10th Amendments included in the Bill of Rights ring a bell?

9th Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage other [rights] retained by the people." In other words, just because it isn't listed specifically by name doesn't mean that a right fails to exist.

10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." In short: power to the people!!!!

That's where our rights come from. The framers had the good sense to realize that there would be changes in the future and issues that would arise that weren't spelled out specifically by this great document. In no uncertain terms, they made it clear that people would have other rights not listed in the pages of the Constitution! "

" sapient wrote on Nov 20, 2008 3:49 PM:
" FB: Why would you promote PP. They have been shown to target the black community. """
__________

exactly...the ones who need sex education, birth control and choice the most.

oh...but you aren't one of those people who complain about welfare costs are you.....nevermind "

" I would challenge anyone who believes women should have a right to choose abortion to look at the pictures on this website and honestly say that the victims in those pictures are not living human beings who have been viciously murdered:

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html

Repulsive and morally repugnant. "

" Thank you to Just a Soldier. I am among many people who feel that a woman should have NO right whatsoever to murder their unborn children.
Those who believe otherwise have the repulsive & repugnant morals of an animal. "

" sapient wrote on Nov 20, 2008 3:54 PM:

" Susan, if it is not a right spelled out in the constitution where does this right come from? God? "

The framers didn't spell out the right of women to vote. Since it wasn't "spelled out" where do women get the right to vote?

At the time they were writing the Constitution, men could legally demand their wives, and their slaves, to have abortions. The anti-abortion movement did not start as a right-to-life issue...unless you consider that abortion was medically dangerous and women were dying from it. It wasn't until women were able to garner support from doctors (who were looking to serve their own interests) that the anti-abortion laws begin to pass in states. Those laws were passed in deference to the women and their rights not to be forced into a dangerous medical procedure that could jeopardize their lives.

Government did not allow the choice by the woman then. The anti-abortion crowd only seeks to take away that choice again and put it in the hands of the government.

Every "pro-life" person must understand that turning over reproduction (to have or not to have), must remain with the woman, her physician, and her family. If they continue to fail in understanding this, it will be their wives, daughters, and sisters who will die OR will be forced to abort against their will. There will be no "choice" just as there is none in China. "

" Just a soldier: I agree

I think if abortion is a right or a medical decision then the information about abortion should be taught in our schools right along with sex education.I mean show pictures of the aftermath. If all could see the little bodies that have been sliced apart and pulled out in pieces or burned alive in the womb with a salt solution or had their brains sucked out maybe they'd think twice about how to avoid having to make the choice to kill. Oh you think this is too graphic for our kids...well what about the violent games or movies these kids are allowed to see. At least those are fiction...abortion is real. People need to get their priorities in line. "

" Just a soldier, if abortions were banned, I could produce a long photo exhibit of women who died as a result of their pregnancies. I could provide photos of starving and abused babies.

You simplify it far too much. There are lots of things that aren't pretty. For example, the hundreds of children that were killed in Iraq over the past decade. Like war, however, abortion is a fact of life. Whether it's legal or illegal, it's an option that some women want.

Is abortion moral? Well, that's really not up to me or you. "

" Just a Soldier a fetus can't survive out of the womb earlier than a gestation date of 24 weeks, so no that mess of tissue is not a living human being. If you think that it is and choose not to have an abortion that is your "right". But don't push your twisted and perverted sense of morality on others. "

" Limitations could still exist, but they'd be federal limitations.

After reading that new law, I don't see any limitations.

Susan

I ask you this question once before and got no answer, see if you dissapear this time too.

If an abortion is only a decision between herself and her doctor, would it be ok, (in your opinion) for a woman to abort a healthy pregnancy at 8 1/2 months? "

" Why is it that the very same people who oppose this kind of bill also oppose the prevention of pregnancy in the first place?

They oppose teaching of contraception and disease prevention, and want to prohibit abortion even when the mother's life is endangered, and in cases of rape/incest.

I am not pro-abortion; I'm pro-keep your nose out of my womb.


Just a Soldier wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:27 PM:
" I would challenge anyone who believes women should have a right to choose abortion to look at the pictures on this website and honestly say that the victims in those pictures are not living human beings who have been viciously murdered:

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html

Repulsive and morally repugnant. "

You should go watch the Sarah Palin turkey-pardon video before you sit down for that turkey dinner. "

" How many of you out there think that if you illegalize abortion, abortions will stop? Anyone?

Now, how many of you out there think that because of illegal abortions, back alley abortions kill and mame women by the MILLIONS a year? All of you?

Thank you. Nuff said. "

" As my grandma used to say when she didn't approve of something, "I'm a-gin it" Abortion in this case. "

" " send donations to Planned parenthood. they are tax deductible.

thanks " "

" Hahvahd: My bad. I get it now. If I want to call something a right I can except the right to bear arms which IS spelled out in the constitution and you libs want to take away. "

" Every "pro-life" person must understand that turning over reproduction (to have or not to have), must remain with the woman, her physician, and her family. If they continue to fail in understanding this, it will be their wives, daughters, and sisters who will die OR will be forced to abort against their will. There will be no "choice" just as there is none in China. """
_______________

well said X "

" "Government did not allow the choice by the woman then. The anti-abortion crowd only seeks to take away that choice again and put it in the hands of the government."

No, XTownie, the anti-abortion crowd only seeks to keep people from murdering helpless unborn children. "

" Medic I have answered you but you choose not to listen. I nor you nor anyone else have a right to "second guess" a decision that is between a woman and her doctor. Period. "

" Just a Soldier and TigerRose, the fact that you are against abortion is irrelevant. It doesn't really matter what you think, or what I think, or what pro-choice people think. Abortion is legal and is likely to remain that way.

People have been squaring off and debating this issue for decades now. Derogatory and judgmental remarks, pro-life rhetoric and shocking photos do not change people's minds.

The question is, are you personally doing anything to make abortion less frequent? Since disparaging those who disagree with you is not especially constructive, what are you actually doing to help solve the problem? "

" sapient wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:21 AM:
" the anti-abortion crowd only seeks to keep people from murdering helpless unborn children. """"
___________

i hope your daughter or grand daughter never have to seek a back alley abortion. "

" VTucker wrote on Nov 21, 2008 12:12 PM:
" what are you actually doing to help solve the problem? """"


teaching abstinence.....ROFLMAO!!! "

" Sapient are you saying that you think that it is not just alright but morally right to murder a woman to save a fetus? Do you think that it is all right and morally right to harass and condemn a woman for making a difficult choice when you have no idea what the circumstances are that lead up to that choice? "

" So far, the argument for keeping abortions legal is:

...that people will do it illegally no matter what.

Well then, let us make underage drinking, drugs, and a dozen other things legal so that people don't have to break the law to do it.

...that until an unborn baby can sustain life on its own outside of the womb it is just a mass of tissue.

Wow! Liberals are so compasionate. Again, go look at the pictures of a 24 week old victim of abortion. Sure as heck looks like a murdered infant to me. Can I stab an aging relative to death because they can't sustain life on their own without the help of oxygen machines or other medical equipment. Does that somehow negate their humanity?

...that mother's lives can be saved because of an abortion.

In this case, I do not have a problem as long as it is only as a last resort to save the mother.

...that babies are starving.

Oh, well, then lets kill all babies until there are no more starving babies. We need to slow down population growth until we can feed the babies we have.

...that abortion is just a fact of life.

In a word...tragic.

...the decision to reproduce or not should be with the woman.

I agree. She should make the decision to be sexually responsible. A drunken fling does not give one the right to murder.

...that it is not up to us to decide what is moral.

Well then explain to me why murder, robbery, rape, etc. are illegal. Seems to me that they are all an effort to enforce moral standards on society.

I cannot imagine having a heart so cold that I could not see an aborted child and see murder. Period. "

" Even though we would not choose abortion....

Pro Choice all the way, baby!
Women should have the right to choose!

.......

father bob wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:21 AM:

"send donations to Planned parenthood. they are tax deductible.

thanks"

.......

Excellant Post!
Education, etc., my friends! "

" Did I say that? Gee, I don't remember saying that. "

" Medic I have answered you but you choose not to listen. I nor you nor anyone else have a right to "second guess" a decision that is between a woman and her doctor. Period.

Susan, so it's ok to abort a pregnancy at 8 1/2 months.

By the way, I am not against abortion, I think it's ok in instances of Rape, Incest, or if the mothers life is in danger, but only up until 5 months. I do not believe in it for birth control or just because the woman doesn't want the baby, if she didn't want a baby, there is a really good way not to have one, and I believe you know what I mean. "

" sapient wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:42 PM:

" Did I say that? Gee, I don't remember saying that. "............



you sound like a republican...i'm selling ticket to Peru. "

" Soldier, I agree that women need to make wise choices and behave responsibly, especially when it comes to sexual behavior. I just wonder, though, if you extend that same advice to men. Your post took on the tone of "blame the woman" for the unplanned pregnancy, and obviously it takes two to create that life. So unmarried women should remain celibate to avoid pregnancy (no other form of birth control is 100% effective at preventing pregnancy, after all). Do you also advocate celibacy for unmarried men? How about for married couples who do not want children?

VTucker, as always your post makes a lot of sense. Whether we support or oppose abortion rights is really irrelevant. I can't imagine anyone thinking abortion is such a wonderful thing that they'd call themselves pro-abortion. What is each of us doing to help reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in our community? To help those facing unplanned pregnancy to be able to support their child or to have the courage to place their child for adoption? Unless we're doing something besides talking about our views on abortion, we're not doing much to protect the unborn, or women, whether Roe v. Wade is overturned or stays in place. "

" Only a moron would base a decision on some photos on a Web site. If we start allowing emotion to drive our decision-making, we're doomed. I use something I like to call common sense. It's this new technique where you use actual information to make informed opinions.

For example, you could blast into little bits this silly notion that drug use might as well be legal if abortions are legal. I believe someone made that suggested. But they use the lame argument that people are going to do it anyway.

Obviously, it's an invalid argument. Legal abortions are favorable to back-alley abortions because there's less chance of a mother dying.

Legalizing drug use, though, doesn't change the risks of that. A person isn't more likely to die from heroine use simply because it's illegal. "

" Do you think that it is all right and morally right to harass and condemn a woman for making a difficult choice when you have no idea what the circumstances are that lead up to that choice? "


Susan

You know as well as I do that some women get an abortion simply because they don't want to have a baby, but they wanted to have fun with no protection. Hey, I don't want anything to interfere with my pleasure, I can always kill the baby later. "

" I have stated several times each of the many, many times this issue has come up that I despise abortions. I would like to see them come to an end.

Does this mean that I would not ever have had an abortion? I cannot possibly answer that. Thankfully, I have never been placed in a situation where that decision was one that I could have been forced (by circumstances) to make. I therefore don't truly know what I would have done when faced with such seemingly unsurmountable problems. Despite your rhetoric, non of the rest of you do, either. You simply are hoping that God notices what good little boys and girls you are, while overlooking the fact that you actually aren't doing anything about it. And expecting people not to notice that you help to increase the incidence of abortion by also speaking out against cheaper birth control, better education, and public support for offspring born into desperate situations. All under the excuse of morality.

In an abortion issue there are many lives to consider besides the infants. There are the babies siblings, fathers, aunts, uncles, and grandparents. And most of all there are the mothers, most of whom do not considered ending the lives of their children as lightly as many of you sound like you think that they do. They are simply desperate people with limited resources trying to find solutions to problems that effect every member of their families. And having to face the problems alone.

We cannot compare abortion with the murder of a post-birth human being. The laws of this land make accommodations which allow an individual to end the life of another without prosecution or conviction. And everybody says AMEN. On the home front we call it self defense. In the broader term we call it war. And for those of you who may argue that a fetus is innocent of blame while the others are not, let me remind you of the term collateral damage. Innocents die every day.

Until the antiabortionists come up with a valid plan that takes every effected human being and the circumstances they find themselves in into consideration, expect to find me continuing to speak out against you. I will vote against government control in the area of reproductive rights until that control is expanded to include all of the issues, not just the rights of the infant. I will stand between you and those who find themselves facing such a horrendous decision while offering assistance and viable alternatives.

You are the pharasees crying out in the temple. We know what Jesus had to say about them. "

" I'd rather sound like a conservative than as a republican. I'm a little ticked at many of them. "

" That is exactly what we need, God Is, "a valid plan that takes every effected human being and the circumstances they find themselves in into consideration."

How can this happen? How can people drop the right-fighting and labeling--and simply work together to make abortion as rare as possible?

Ideas, anybody? I'm still waiting for input from Just a Soldier, sapient, and TigerRose. How about you, Vanatta--you usually post on the abortion threads. "

" fb you are always wanting people to leave the United States, Well guess what!!! I have a ticket for you that will deliver you to Africa and no return ticket will be issued to you. Bye Bye and have a nice trip!!!!! "

" Medic as Tammer said it takes two to Tango, men have as much responsibility in preventing unwanted pregnancies as women. We also know that teenagers are often impetuous and will take foolish risks. We know that women and young girls are raped and find themselves pregnant. We also know that accidents happen, birth control isn't 100% effective, even if directions are followed precisely, which they often aren't. In the end the choice is a difficult one and is between a woman and her Doctor. "

" In an abortion issue there are many lives to consider besides the infants

Not according to Susan, according to her, it's ok to abort a baby at 8 1/2 months, or even at 9 months if the woman so desires. "

" sapient

I would guess that about 95% of the population is Republican and don't know it. "

" Medic public policy should be based on sound reason not idle speculation or raw emotion. Religious doctrines must be left out since this is a multi-cultural, multi-religious nation. Since you are so find of idle speculation I will bet that 99.9% of women that have an abortion at 8 1/2 months do so after making agonizingly difficult choices and that the baby is not viable. No woman would go through a pregnancy that long and then up and decide one day, "I have had enough, cut this thing out of me". BUT it isn't up to me or anyone else to second guess the motives, or demand an explanation from, a woman or her doctor who make that difficult choice. In fact it is immoral to do so. "

" when do we justify murder...stop the abortions republicans but send them to die at 18...or if they mess up we can slap the death penalty on them, maybe we've been playing God too much "

" I must go on record as a conservative of being PRO-ABORTION under two circumstances . . .

1) With the consent of the aborted

2) If we make abortion retroactive and I can decide who we abort!

Outside of that . . . . "

" I will bet that 99.9% of women that have an abortion at 8 1/2 months do so after making agonizingly difficult choices and that the baby is not viable. No woman would go through a pregnancy that long and then up and decide one day, "I have had enough, cut this thing out of me"

Why not, isn't that why 3rd trimester abortions are legal? At 5 or 6 months you can have enough tests done to tell if there is anything wrong. Sorry, every baby is viable after 5 months, after that, it's just plain murder. (a C section can be done at this time to save the mothers life) Leaving religeon out of it, (and emotions) just look at a baby that has been aborted at 8 months and then tell me it's not murder. What I believe you'll see is a human being, a body, 2 legs, 2 arms, 10 fingers, 10 toes, hair (usually) and a head, either crushed or with a big hole in it. Now you look at that and then tell me it's acceptable. "

" injustice85 wrote on Nov 24, 2008 5:52 PM:

" when do we justify murder...stop the abortions republicans but send them to die at 18...or if they mess up we can slap the death penalty on them, maybe we've been playing God too much "


No one going to war was sent just to die. Most are sent to take care of a troubled spot somewhere else in the world, unfortunate, but true. As far as the death penalty goes, remember that kid out in DC a couple of years back, him and his friend were killing people at random on the interstate (maybe it was Columbus) just for fun. What is wron with him getting the chair?

Medic as Tammer said it takes two to Tango, men have as much responsibility in preventing unwanted pregnancies as women

Absolutely, but nothing justifies aborting a viable human being just because it's legal. "

" Why is it that the very same people who oppose this kind of bill also oppose the prevention of pregnancy in the first place?

They oppose teaching of contraception and disease prevention, and want to prohibit abortion even when the mother's life is endangered, and in cases of rape/incest.

AnnaNiemaus

I agree with that statement completely. Sex ed should start at home (but it never does) so, it should be taught in schools, starting at about 6th grade and ending when you graduate.

Susan

Absolutely, making babies is just as much a mans fault as it is a womans. Still, it simply doesn't justify abortion outside of saving a mothers life, incest or rape, and then only until a certain point. You know as well as I do that some women simply don't have any problem with an abortion at any point, sad, but true. "

" Medic did that baby have a fully functioning heart, lungs, other organs, tumors, genetic disorder? You can't tell by looking at a mass of tissue. WE don't know. As I have said before it is not for me to judge, to demand a litmus test, to demand explanations. A baby is viable after 24 weeks, but will probably have lifelong health, developmental, and/or mental problems. Who picks up the expense for extensive, very specialized care for this premature baby? Who picks up the expense for life long care, special education, medical bills, for this child? Who will provide permanant loving homes for this disabled child if the mother gives the baby up? OR will the infant end up being institutionalized? Unpleasant issues that need to be addressed. It isn't just about abortion. If YOU want to stop abortions you MUST address these issues as well as the issue of sex-education in schools. AND you must also address the cost of birth control. Birth control pills are expensive and require annual checkups for the woman. Are you willing to see that a Universal Health Care bill (with free birth control provision) is passed to cover a womans expenses. Issuing condoms is cheaper but not as affective. Are you willing to address the issue of what to do about accidental pregnancies when condoms were used? I can hear the interrogation now. The issue isn't just about abortion. "

" shumphreys wrote on Nov 26, 2008 8:05 AM: " Medic did that baby have a fully functioning heart, lungs, other organs, tumors, genetic disorder? You can't tell by looking at a mass of tissue. WE don't know." What the heck does it matter? It's DEAD now!

Then goes on to write "A baby is viable after 24 weeks, but will probably have lifelong health, developmental, and/or mental problems. Who picks up the expense for extensive, very specialized care for this premature baby?" Which, of course means it doesn't DESERVE to live.

And "Who picks up the expense for life long care, special education, medical bills, for this child?" The same person that does today - me and you. I might add that this was a strange question for an Obama supporter to ask.

"It isn't just about abortion." Are you kidding me? It's EXACTLY about abortion - the willful taking of a baby's life for the convenience of the mother. Regardless of the difficulty of the remaining issues, we're talking about killing a baby here!

Going on . . . "If YOU want to stop abortions you MUST address these issues as well as the issue of sex-education in schools." There is no tie . . . ZERO . . . between sex education and abortion. Abortion has NOTHING to do with sex - educated or uneducated - abortion has to do with killing.

Then "...you must also address the cost of birth control. Birth control pills are expensive and require annual checkups for the woman." Birth control has NOTHING to do with abortion. Abortion is NOT a contraceptive. Any woman using abortion as a form of birth control isn't smart enough to be allowed to have sex!

He/she asks, "Are you willing to see that a Universal Health Care bill (with free birth control provision) is passed to cover a womans expenses." No, I'm not. To cover a woman's expenses for WHAT?



Issuing condoms is cheaper but not as affective. Are you willing to address the issue of what to do about accidental pregnancies when condoms were used? I can hear the interrogation now. The issue isn't just about abortion. " "

" Here's something I find very interesting . . .

shumphreys wrote on Nov 22, 2008 12:24 PM: "Medic as Tammer said it takes two to Tango, men have as much responsibility in preventing unwanted pregnancies as women."

And then FOUR LINES later, he/she writes "In the end the choice is a difficult one and is between a woman and her Doctor. " What happened to the two that tangoed? Isn't the co-tangoer involved in the decision as well?

If you need more proof that pro-abortion is a FEMINIST agenda thing - at least for ONE poster - you aren't paying attention. "

" it isn't our job to give anyone the chair (the easy way out) medic57, why should we justify murder with murder, as for war what the heck else is being accomplished over there, people were sent there to kill there or die there "

" Mr.Right you are quite wrong. First it makes a BIG difference whether a baby has a functioning heart, brain and other organs. What an amazingly callous and ignorant statement. Second I am not passing judgment on whether a fetus "deserves" to live or die, that isn't within my jurisdiction, nor is it within yours. Third,you are very wrong about who currently picks up the expense for severely disabled children and for the catastrophic medical expenses involved. Several families have lost everything, trying to pay the expenses, they loose jobs and health insurance, they are forced into bankruptcy all before the "public" gets stuck with the rest of the tab. Sorry abortion has everything to do with sex education, and free birth control (which can help prevent unwanted pregnancies) and care for disabled babies and their mothers (some of those healthy mothers you see at food banks). Your compassion and grasp of the issues overwhelms me. Finally when men are able to carry babies in artificial wombs they can have the final say in whether a fetus is aborted, til then, it is a womans body and only she and her doctor are qualified to make a decision about medical procedures. Your comments and attitudes are simply immoral, no ifs ands or buts. "

" shumphreys: You didn't write "A baby" . . . you wrote "THAT baby" referring to a specific baby. Big difference there. You wrote about the specific, I replied to the specific, you rebutted the general. My, how I twist your words!

And it isn't a callous statement. You were writing about a baby that had been aborted and then started asking the "what ifs". All I wrote was that it was too late to ask the "what ifs" - the baby had been aborted.

"Sorry abortion has everything to do with sex education, " No, abortion does NOT have anything to do with sex education. It has to do with SEX since you can't have an abortion without having SEX, but it doesn't have anything to do with sex education. There's a difference between sex and sex education. That's why I'm not arrested for reading a sex education book in public. I'm READING not having sex!

"and free birth control (which can help prevent unwanted pregnancies)" Free birth control???? Are you really - and think about this - are you really going on record stating that abortion is a form of birth control? Are you going on record stating there is any tie between abortion and birth control other than if one doesn't do one, they can always do another?

Yes, you have seen many families go completely broke due to medical expenses. Please . . . . don't argue the exception . . . argue the rule.

"Your compassion and grasp of the issues overwhelms me." My compassion may be in question here since judging compassion is relative - that is unless you've cornered the definition of "compassion" like you've cornered the definition of "clap trap".

But my grasp of the issues isn't. If there's anything causing my grasp of the issues to be in question, it's because you keep squirming around them, changing the rules of engagement and backpedaling in a fury!

"Finally when men are able to carry babies in artificial wombs they can have the final say in whether a fetus is aborted..." Of course! The guy is equally responsible for creating a child but doesn't share in the responsibility of what becomes of that child. There's your "equal opportunity for all" for you.

"Your comments and attitudes are simply immoral, no ifs ands or buts. " I really hadn't thought my attitudes were immoral since there is no morality or it's relative or it's individual or whatever new twist liberals have put on their lack of morality this week! But if YOU say so . . . . . . . . . "

" You think about this Mr. Right. Don't read into my statements your own perverted thoughts. Abortion is a medical issue between a woman and her Doctor period. You, nor I nor anyone else have a right to interfere with such decisions and we absolutely do not have a right to judge a woman who makes such difficult decisions, nor judge a man or woman who has SEX. We do have an obligation as compassionate human beings to do what we can to help people in need, in their time of crises, to help prevent unwanted pregnancies by promoting full and responsible sex education programs, free birth control for people of child bearing age, medical insurance and help caring for babies for people that choose not to abort a baby with birth defects and infants that are born prematurely, etc. etc. etc. AND to show compassion for a woman for whatever choice she decides, to do otherwise is un-Christian, in-human and immoral. Afterall the Bible tells us to "judge not that we be not judged", it tells us to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us". Good words to live by. BUT they are also the same concepts taught by Buddhists and Taoists and others that put Compassion first. "

" shumphreys
"Don't read into my statements your own perverted thoughts." I'm not reading anything into your statements. I'm QUOTING you verbatim. BTW - "perverted" is a word used to judge - something you warn everyone else about doing.

"Abortion is a medical issue between a woman and her Doctor period." An abortion IS a medical issue between a woman and her doctor UNTIL someone decides that I should have a role in paying that doctor for killing that child. Then it's not only a MEDICAL issue but a SOCIAL issue as well. Being part of society, I have the right to my opinion and I don't want my free society's money to be used to kill babies.

"You, nor I nor anyone else have a right to interfere with such decisions" I'm not trying to interfere with a woman's decision to kill her unborn child. I'm trying to interfere with a woman's decision to kill her unborn child AND me pay for it!

"...and we absolutely do not have a right to judge a woman who makes such difficult decisions..." But we DO have the right to judge someone's thoughts as "perverted" - see above.

"...nor judge a man or woman who has SEX." I would NEVER judge a man or woman who has sex. If they want to have sex - let 'em go at it! I WILL however judge someone who has sex with no thought of the responsibility thereof, becomes pregnant - or impregnates someone - and decides to let me worry about it and pay for it. I'll judge them and I'll call it "irresponsibility".

"...We do have an obligation as compassionate human beings to do what we can to help people in need, in their time of crises..." Agreed. But their time of need or crisis is NOT when they want to kill their child. It's a time of GREED of the parent and crisis for the child but that's the extent of it.

"...to help prevent unwanted pregnancies by promoting full and responsible sex education programs..." Okay - I'm going to give you this one and solve it all in one paragraph. Please pass this word around. If you do not want to have children and you have no way of guaranteeing that by your actions you WON'T have children - DON'T HAVE SEX!!! There's the best, least expensive and most effective sex education program you can get anywhere! I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE that if a couple does NOT have sex, they will NOT risk the chance of an unwanted pregnancy, thereby "causing" them to go somewhere to have an abortion.

"...free birth control for people of child bearing age..." Outside of my last paragraph, you're kidding, right? Past the free birth control advice of "DON'T HAVE SEX", you CAN'T be talking about anything else, can you? FREE BIRTH CONTROL FOR PEOPLE OF CHILD BEARING AGE???? You mean me paying for "Here - go have a good time and don't worry about being responsible - it's on us!" Are you kidding?????

"...medical insurance..." Free medical insurance? Where are you going to get the money for this? Taxing the rich because you can and giving it to the government to decide which poor get the benefit from it? Yeah, the government does so well with driver's licenses, social security and the highways - heck, let's give 'em medicine, too!

I'd go on with quoting you but it justs gets boring doing the same thing over and over.

But then I read "...to show compassion for a woman for whatever choice she decides..." Compassion, yes. Fund her options, no.

Here's my favorite . . . "...to do otherwise is un-Christian, in-human and immoral. Afterall the Bible tells us to "judge not that we be not judged", it tells us to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us" Did you just quote the Bible? The book written by men that mislead people into thinking they can actually GO to heaven?

Make up your mind. Either the Bible is good enough to quote or it's not. Take a freaking stand on something instead of arguing the exception and picking the fly 5hit out of the pepper!!!! "

" So Mr. Right would you keep a woman, (or a private donor agency) from paying for her own abortion? No tax dollars involved? You have a right to your beliefs and if you don't want to have an abortion don't have one. BUT you do not have the right to tell someone else what to do when it comes to a medical decision involving someone elses body.You can no more keep people from having SEX than you can keep the sun from rising each morning. So cut the crap and face reality. NOR do you have the right to deny people the pleasures of sex. Again if you want to not have sex that is your choice. I prefer to face reality, to be compassionate, to prevent abortions the practical way through sex education, free birth control, and when accidents happen plenty of information and options so a woman can make the choice that is best for her AND if that choice involves an abortion helping her deal with whatever issues (if any) she may have.You are right it gets boring talking compassion to someone who has nothing but self-righteousness. "

" AND Mr. Right I have stated many, many times that the Bible is full of great wisdom, well worth reading even if it isn't the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I quote from the Bible because it is a book many on these pages claim to be well versed/comfortable with. BUT it is not the only book worth reading. You might try: The Upanishads, Tao teh Ching, Siddhartha, Buddhist Sutras, Locke, Hume, Nietsche (I can never spell his name right)Harry Potter Books, even the Chronicles of Narnia, all full of great wisdom. "

" Susan

I have a friend, he and his wife were expecting, the doctors told them that the baby's brain was severely damaged and the doctors told them that they should abort the pregnancy or the baby would be severely handicapped, would never walk or talk and later on they were told he wouldn't live over 2 or 3 weeks. They would not abort.

He is in college now. "

" He/she asks, "Are you willing to see that a Universal Health Care bill (with free birth control provision) is passed to cover a womans expenses

Absolutely not, no one pays for my Diabetes, Blood Pressure and Seizure medicines.

people were sent there to kill there or die there

injustice85

I believe in all my life, that is about the most stupid statement I have ever heard. So, we are over there for no other reason than to killed or be killed.

How did you come to this brillent conclusion? "

" Medic honestly 60 Minues has been chronicling the story of a savant, a baby born with severe birth defects, his parents were told he would never walk, talk, read, AND he is a musical genius that still can't put on his own shoes. He requires and will continue to require assistance his entire life. As I said it is not for me to judge the mother who chooses to carry her child to term or the one who doesn't. "

" shumphreys . . . slow down and really really read what I'm writing before you spend so much time and energy rebutting me only to reiterate my points.

"So Mr. Right would you keep a woman, (or a private donor agency) from paying for her own abortion? No tax dollars involved?" No. If a woman wants to pay for her own abortion - I have no problem with it. If she wants to hire a hit person to kill her child, that's fine. It's still murder, but at least I didn't have to PAY for her to commit the crime.

"BUT you do not have the right to tell someone else what to do when it comes to a medical decision involving someone elses body." No. I do not have the right to tell someone what to do. But I DO have the right to call what someone does what it is. If we were talking about an apendectomy here it would be one thing. This is not removing a body part. This is removing a BODY. Killing is killing. I may not have the right to tell someone what to do but I DO have the right to tell them what they did.

"You can no more keep people from having SEX than you can keep the sun from rising each morning." I don't WANT to keep people from having sex, for God's sake! (Oh, just to use some of your own logic on you, the sun doesn't actually rise . . . you see the curvature of the earth as it spins . . .") How does that feel?

"I prefer to face reality, to be compassionate, to prevent abortions the practical way through sex education" You still haven't anwered the question I've asked three times and here comes the fourth . . . do you really think there is any tie between sex and abortion outside of you can't have one until you've had another? Do you really think that abortion is a viable birth control method? It's a simple question. Why do you continue to ignore the question?

"...free birth control..." No. Not free birth control. Why? Why free birth control? So someone can enjoy the pleasure of sex without the need to be responsible and then ask society around them to pay for it? Sex is NOT a life or death issue. One CAN live without sex! Sex itself is not a right! If you drive a car and have an accident, you have to pay for it yourself. If you have sex and have an accident, you can have the American taxpayer wipe it out by paying to kill the result of the accident? Horsepucky!

When you start paying for my auto insurance in case I have an accident, I'll start paying for your condoms in case YOU have an accident doing something you WANT to do but don't have to do.

"...and when accidents happen plenty of information and options so a woman can make the choice that is best for her..." Yes. What's best for HER. Who gives a squat about the kid she created . . . certainly not YOU!

"...AND if that choice involves an abortion helping her deal with whatever issues (if any) she may have." Read this slowly . . . I . . .have . . . no . . . problem . . . with . . . helping . . . someone . . . with . . . their . . . problems . . . . I . . . have . . . a . . . problem . . . being . . . forced . . . to . . . pay . . . for . . . it . . . , being . . . required . . . to . . . provide . . . it . . . and . . . being . . . judged . . . if . . . I . . . don't . . . show . . . compassion . . . the . . . way . . . liberals . . . have . . . decided . . . I . . . should . . . show . . . it. In . . . other . . . words . . . being . . . judged . . . by . . . those . . . whose . . . very . . . battle . . . cry . . . is . . . "dont' . . . judge . . . others". Did I type that slow enough for you to understand, this umpteenth time I've triend to tell you??????

And self-righteousness? Of course. If you say so. I'm self-righteous . . . you're just right no matter what everyone else thinks and have no problem telling us.

The people who agree with you are of like mind. Those who agree with me are in lockstep.

Those who agree with you are of the same kindred spirit. Those who agree with me are of the same "ilk". "

" shumphreys . . .

"...Harry Potter Books, even the Chronicles of Narnia, all full of great wisdom."

You're serious, aren't you? Harry Potter (the book not the poster on this site)? WWHD? What would Harry Do? Don't you even THINK about what you're typing???? "

" medic57 wrote on Nov 27, 2008 8:17 PM:

" He/she asks, "Are you willing to see that a Universal Health Care bill (with free birth control provision) is passed to cover a womans expenses

Absolutely not, no one pays for my Diabetes, Blood Pressure and Seizure medicines.

people were sent there to kill there or die there

injustice85

I believe in all my life, that is about the most stupid statement I have ever heard. So, we are over there for no other reason than to killed or be killed.

How did you come to this brillent conclusion? "

You name me a good reason we are there medic...you believe in all life but are fine with the death penalty? this "war" is as illogical as your logic "

" shumphreys . . . "...I prefer to face reality, to be compassionate, to PREVENT ABORTIONS the practical way through sex education."

I'm curious why you would care to prevent abortions in the first place if it's just a matter of tearing out a little of useless inconvenient tissue.

Now, you're going on record as "preferring to prevent" something that is - IN YOUR WORDS . . .

"...a decision between a woman and her doctor and no one has a "right" to interfere in such a decision..."

When doing so is "...push(ing) your twisted and perverted sense of morality on others. "

When it's "...a decision that is between a woman and her doctor. Period. "

You are on record as trying to prevent a CHOICE!!! "...In the end the choice is a difficult one and is between a woman and her Doctor. "

You are on record of wanting to prevent an abortion when "...it isn't up to me or anyone else to second guess the motives, or demand an explanation from, a woman or her doctor who make that difficult choice. In fact it is immoral to do so."

Now you want to prevent something involving "...a womans body and only she and her doctor are qualified to make a decision about medical procedures..."

Make up your mind. Is abortion a woman's right to choose? If it is, you are on record of being against a woman's choice while at the same time condemning ME for the same thing.

Make up your mind. Are you FOR a woman's right to kill her child or not?

And if it's only a choice, why are you on record of trying to prevent a choice?

Time to fish or cut bait. "

" Mr. Right we all have the "right" to be mean spirited, to be judgmental, to be nasty, ill tempered, foul mouthed, etc. etc. That isn't the issue here. The issue is whether it is the "right", compassionate, stance to take? "

" You bet I think the Harry Potter books and Chronicles of Narnia, and Snow White, and Beauty and the Beast, and the Tales of King Arthur and Robin Hood, can all teach us great lessons. Different books are aimed at diffeent age levels, and at people at different stages of their personal spiritual or life journey. Some books are going to be beyond your comprehension just as some are beyond mine. But at least I keep on reading and exploring ideas and information. I keep on growing. It would seem to me, that you have stopped growing. "

" Mr. Right to pursue the issue further take a look at what someone might learn from the Harry Potter books: even house elfs deserve to be treated with "human" dignity, friends sometimes find it hard to be friends, growing up and changing can present its own difficulties and challenges, and doing what is "right" may be difficult, it may put you at odds with your friends, it may be dangerous but there are some things that are worth fighting for. AND the Harry Potter books show what those "things" are, freedom from tyrany, friends, ..... Yes lots of great lessons for all people in those silly Harry Potter books. "

" I have answered you Mr. Right, it is not for me to judge the reason a woman uses abortion to stop an unwanted pregnancy. It is none of my business whether it was rape, incest, unfortunate accident, failure of birth control, carelessness, birth defect of the fetus, health concern of the mother. BUT I can help women and men prevent unwanted pregnancies by supporting full and complete, honest and accuract sex education programs in public schools, doctors offices, books, magazines, where ever such information can be distributed. I can also support programs that provide FREE birth control, pills, condoms, sterilization, to those that want it. AND I can push for Universal Health Care to help cover the cost of birth control, medical exams, prenatal care, post natal care, care for premature infants and infants with birth defects, mothers with health problems resulting from their pregnancies. It is all about COMPASSION, facing reality head on and putting the needs of others before ones own. "

" I am interested in preventing the need for abortions for many reasons: an abortion can be hazardous to a womans health but not necessarily more hazardous than pregnancy itself. AND back room abortions can really be hazardous to a womans health. I am interested in preventing the need for abortions because of sexually transmitted diseases. Sex-education ALSO teaches about sexually transmitted diseases and promoting condom usage can "kill two brids with one stone" (so to speak) help prevent the spread of STDS and help prevent unwanted pregnancies. "

" Only your twisted mind would read my words as "preventing choice". No where have I ever stated that I think ALL people should be FORCED to use birth control, rather than abstinance, nor that women should be FORCED to have an abortion against their wishes. Personally, when I rule the world, all people will be sterilized at puberty and only when they reach the age of their majority (we can negotiate whether that is 18 or 21 or 24 or 30) upon completion of Parenting Classes and proof of financial stability, will the sterilization be reversed. "

" shumphreys . . .

"we all have the "right" to be mean spirited, to be judgmental, to be nasty, ill tempered, foul mouthed, etc. etc. That isn't the issue here. The issue is whether it is the "right", compassionate, stance to take?"

The right stance to take is up to the individual. I have chosen the right stance to take on the abortion issue, and that is to define abortion as killing an infant regardless of the infants condition in the womb. I have chosen the right stance to take is to insist someone accepts the responsibility of ones actions and to face the consequences of their actions. I have chosen the right stance to take is not to ask (like anyone is EVER asked) society as a whole to pay for anothers choice when the choice could have been made by the individual long before it got to the abortion point.

One certainly has the right to be mean spirited, judgmental, nasty, ill-tempered, etc. as in Only your twisted mind and It would seem to me, that you have stopped growing., all examples of the rights youve said one has.


I am interested in preventing the need for abortions

Outside of the rape, incest, etc. argument (which encompasses less than 2% of the reasons a woman gives for abortion the exception and not the rule), I hardly see abortion as a need. I hear its a choice. I also have continued to grow by reading that over 70% of the reason a woman gives for abortion falls under the category of inconvenience (making it the rule rather than the exception) for whatever the secondary reason is. Im not sure one has the right NOT to be inconvenienced. We can all come up with exceptions to rules to why someone might believe having an abortion is right but over 70% does not qualify as an exception. So if you are interested in preventing the NEED for abortions, your work is complete.

Outside of under 2% of the reasons a woman gives for having an abortion, the NEED for abortion can be prevented. IF ONE CANNOT HANDLE THE CONSEQUENCES OF HAVING SEX, DO NOT HAVE SEX. There. Problem solved! Let's move on to another social problem.


it is not for me to judge the reason a woman uses abortion to stop an unwanted pregnancy

Are you saying that any reason to stop an UNWANTED pregnancy is okay that the fact that you dont WANT a child is adequate reason to kill it and not be judged for your actions? Have we not as a society already judged murder to be at least undesirable behavior?


Sex-education ALSO teaches about sexually transmitted diseases and promoting condom usage can "kill two brids with one stone" (so to speak) help prevent the spread of STDS and help prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Correct. Sex-education teaches about hazards of having sex and I can support a tax-based incentive to teach sex education for an abundance of reasons. I would agree that sex education should point out contraceptive methods available. But to promote condom usage? Or promote birth control pills, or to promote any kind of birth control? I dont think so. ADVISE but not PROMOTE. To use taxpayer funds to pay to promote birth control is the same as using taxpayer funds to pay for a manger scene on the courthouse square. I'll be interested in reading the difference you suggest there might be between "using taxpayer funds to pay for . . . " and "using taxpayer funds to pay for . . . " Seems like the same phrase to me.

Why not promote the only fool-proof, 100% effective method of avoiding unwanted pregnancies if youre going to promote anything? That does not take away anyones freedom of choice. They can CHOOSE not to use anything. But when they CHOOSE incorrectly, dont ask me to approve of it or fund it!

What about those who cant make the correct choices? The same thing should happen to them as happens to you and me when we make the wrong choices. We face the consequences. To refuse to allow someone to face the consequences of their actions cannot be called compassionate. To stand between them and the results of their actions teaches them what? That one can do what they want to do without any consequences or ramifications? That doesnt sound like compassion. Teaching people that they have no responsibility for their actions and dont have to face consequences is what has gotten us to the instant-gratification situation were in now. Hows that working for us?

Finally, I rebutted your statement ...I prefer to face reality, to be compassionate, to PREVENT ABORTIONS the practical way Unless prevent has taken on a new definition like is and claptrap have, and abortion is "...a decision between a woman and her doctor and no one has a "right" to interfere in such a decision...", you have stated that you are trying to prevent an action that is a private decision. You may not have meant those exact words but you DID write those exact words. And its those exact words I cited. Asking someone to take responsibility for what they said or wrote is not mean-spirited, judgmental, nasty or anything like that unless the left has re-defined THOSE words, too. "

" Mr. Right, you're "shoulding" all over yourself. And maybe you are right--women should take responsibility for their actions, and they should accept responsibility for consequences of their actions. Your other views, posted earlier, may also be right.

Pro-lifers have been mounting their high horses and "shoulding around" for decades now. But how many abortions have been prevented by all this rhetoric? What is the point? "

" You are judging Mr. Right, everything about your posts is judgmental. The "RIGHT" stance is Compassion Mr. Right. Compassion comes from facing reality and doing something productive that helps people become better people. SEX is as natural as the need for food and warmth and shelter and self-preservation. I'd like to see that all babies are WANTED, not begrudgingly accepted as unhappy and unplanned accidents. I'd like to see young people learn to accept and embrace their sexuality and handle it wisely rather than use it as a tool for exploitation and denegration. I'd like to put an end to STD's (and other disease for that mattter). I accept the reality of the problems caused by Over Population, a world bursting at the seems with too many people, more than this planet can safely and sustainably handle. I accept the reality that abortion will be needed for all kinds of reasons and that Education and FREE birth control can help people avoid unwanted pregnancies and the health and mental issues that go with such. AND I assert that it is not for me to judge, demand explanations, criticize or condemn a choice a woman makes in consultation with her Doctor. "

" Oh and Mr. Right preventing the need for abortions includes encouraging genetic tests and screening, prenatal care for women that carry their pregnancies to term, better/safer/more fale safe forms of birth control. This all means encouraging scientists and medical developments with public funding, research dollars. It is all about Compassion Mr. Right and common sense. "

" Your tax deductible to Planned Parenthood are greatly appreciated!....thanks again. "

" VTucker wrote on Nov 30, 2008 7:46 AM:
"Mr. Right, you're "shoulding" all over yourself. And maybe you are right--women should take responsibility for their actions, and they should accept responsibility for consequences of their actions. Your other views, posted earlier, may also be right."

So I don't know if your usage of "shoulding" is in support or in opposition to what I'm writing. It LOOKS like it is in support. Am I correct?

"Pro-lifers have been mounting their high horses and "shoulding around" for decades now. But how many abortions have been prevented by all this rhetoric? What is the point?"

Similar to the "your people are committed to a goal" and my people are "in lockstep", YOUR people are "spreading their message" while MY people are "high-horsing".

If we're in agreement on what SHOULD be (according to our own motivations - whatever they be), we can agree that what SHOULD be still SHOULD be regardless of whether it IS or isn't. Am I right? "

" "You are judging Mr. Right, everything about your posts is judgmental." If you mean that I am judging someone as being good or bad, you couldn't be wronger! If you mean that I am applying criteria to their BEHAVIOR, then I AM judging their behavior. How else does one form an opinion of something outside of "judging". And there's a big difference between judging someone's behavior and being "judgemental".


"The "RIGHT" stance is Compassion Mr. Right." I wouldn't disagree with you but you are determining what is "right" versus "wrong" and condemning me for the same thing!

"Compassion comes from facing reality and doing something productive that helps people become better people." Better people? In whose estimation? Isn't that judging PEOPLE and not their behavior?

"SEX is as natural as the need for food and warmth and shelter and self-preservation." No, it isn't. Sex is not a basic need. It never has been and it isn't today.

I can agree with the biggest part of what you would like to see happen. Those points with which I would disagree are really not important to this particular exchange so I won't go into them.

But while we agree with what we'd like to see - for the most part - I don't see where or how abortion is integral to the accomplishment of your goals.

"I accept the reality that abortion will be needed for all kinds of reasons..." No, abortion is not needed for anything!

"...and that Education and FREE birth control can help people avoid unwanted pregnancies and the health and mental issues that go with such." Education and birth control I can agree with. FREE birth control however is out of the question. There is not valid reason to provide someone with birth control at my expense.

"...AND I assert that it is not for me to judge, demand explanations, criticize or condemn a choice a woman makes in consultation with her Doctor. " It may not be FOR YOU TO JUDGE but you HAVE judged.

"Oh and Mr. Right preventing the need for abortions includes...[et.al.]" Stop right there. Regardless of what you listed after that statement is completely negated by use of the word "need". Sex, birth control and abortions are NOT now, never have been, and will NEVER be "needs".

"This all means ... with public funding..." No. Not public funding to fund the killing of children! No!

"It is all about Compassion Mr. Right and common sense." Common Sense? COMMON SENSE? Evidently sense isn't all that common. "

" Mr. Right Abortion is needed and always will be needed as long as there are unwanted pregnancies and life and health issues for fetus and the woman. "

" There are 6,739,151,622 reasons why FREE birth control for everyone of child bearing age is in your BEST interest--clean air, water, safe food and drug supplies, disease, crime and ethnic and religious hatreds, all exacerbated by a population that is out of control and beyond what this planet can sustainably carry. "

" Sometimes Mr. Right there are two kinds of judging. One kind is evaluative and constructive, looking for what needs to be changed and improved and takes a stand to bring about change. The other kind is self-righteous, self-centered and destructive. "

" Oh and Mr. Right you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for SEX. SEX is a need, as primal as our need for food, clothing, shelter, and self-preservation, even for those that choose never to have babies. "

" Common sense is always there Mr. Right, it is just that some are too blind to see it and too stubborn to use it. "

" Mr. Right, I've been re-reading your posts, trying to see where you're coming from. At first, you seem to be opposed to abortion in general. Later, though, you seem to be against it if your tax monies have to pay for it.

About the tax issue--our country does not give us the right to designate where our tax monies go. To follow your line of thinking, I've been forced to support a number of things that I feel are wrong (including the war in Iraq).

Back to your 1:33 post from yesterday: What I was saying is that it doesn't matter whether people are doing what they should do. Focusing on "shoulds and oughts" does nothing to stop abortion. People are going to continue having unprotected sex and making babies, no matter what.

Telling them they should not do it--or, being "right"--has not stopped a single abortion, has it?

This is my third attempt to engage those of you who talk about being against abortion--to get you to go beyond the mindset of "I'm against abortion, they shouldn't do it" to "What can I do to help solve the problem of abortion?" So far, I haven't heard anything beyond the moralizing. "

" Vicky trying to get folks to "shift consciousness", "see the light", "move beyond their egos", "see the BIGGER picture" isn't easy. It isn't a task for sissies. BUT then Jesus, Buddha and a whole host of others had the same difficulties, so we are in good company. Remember that they persevered and didn't give up. There are even comments in the Bible where Jesus appears to get frustrated at the density of some of his disciples. "

" BUT then Jesus, Buddha and a whole host of others had the same difficulties, so we are in good company."

Don't say that, Susan! I might get struck by lightning or something! :) "

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:22 AM: " Mr. Right Abortion is needed and always will be needed as long as there are unwanted pregnancies and life and health issues for fetus and the woman. " Choice does not constitute a need. I choose to be wealthy. When can I expect your check???? Life and health issues for the baby and the woman constitute less than 6% of abortions. Most are performed to alleviate an inconvenience. It is THOSE that are not needed. I cannot rid myself of the things that inconvenience me nor can you or Id be up in a puff of smoke.

What are we teaching people when we actually condone KILLING as a way to rid someone of an inconvenience? No wonder were where we are as a society. If its inconvenient KILL IT. Who cares? Now THERES a responsible position to take and teach!

shumphreys wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:26 AM: " There are 6,739,151,622 reasons why FREE birth control for everyone of child bearing age is in your BEST interest--clean air, water, safe food and drug supplies, disease, crime and ethnic and religious hatreds, all exacerbated by a population that is out of control and beyond what this planet can sustainably carry. " Responsibility is the answer. Relying on yourself to be responsible for your actions is the answer not relying on the public for rescuing you from the lack of responsibility. I'd be curious to know what the statistics are regarding the reason given for abortion being "because I'm sooooo concerned with overpopulation that I don't want to contribute to it!" Give me a break!

shumphreys wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:30 AM: " Sometimes Mr. Right there are two kinds of judging. One kind is evaluative and constructive, looking for what needs to be changed and improved and takes a stand to bring about change. The other kind is self-righteous, self-centered and destructive. " There are indeed two kinds of judging. The difference is YOUR side JUDGES MY side, on the other hand, is JUDGMENTAL. Theres the difference. YOU associate with "people of like minds" and I am "in lockstep" with my "ilk". I could go on and on.

shumphreys wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:33 AM: " Oh and Mr. Right you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for SEX. SEX is a need, as primal as our need for food, clothing, shelter, and self-preservation, even for those that choose never to have babies. " You are correct. I wouldnt be here if it wasnt (sic) for SEX. That has nothing to do with a need to which one is ENTITLED. If sex is a need that one must have to exist, where does one go to satisfy that need? If sex is a need and my needs arent being fulfilled to my satisfaction, where do I go? If I need food I can go to food shelves. If I need clothing, there are plenty of places I can go to get clothing. If I need shelter, there are places for that as well. All three of those are FREE! (Dont even insult my intelligence by going off on the those places need funding, too jag. You may be right but that still doesnt deny their existence.) If I NEED sex, where do I go to get THAT free????? Sex is not a need regardless of why you, me or anyone else is or isnt here. I didnt say I was AGAINST sex - in fact let me go on record as being PRO sex! I just said it wasnt a NEED. And it ISNT. And abortion is not a contraceptive device or practice! Please don't tell me you equate abortion with condoms as a viable form of birth control.

shumphreys wrote on Dec 2, 2008 7:34 AM: " Common sense is always there Mr. Right, it is just that some are too blind to see it and too stubborn to use it. " Common means either available to all and Id agree with you that it is AVAILABLE or it means present in everyone. You might say I lack common sense since you dont see it present in me which would mean that you have made a judgment that is evaluative and constructive. I might say YOU lack common sense since I dont see it present in YOU which would of course mean I am self-righteous, self-centered and destructive. Once again a matter either of judgment or being judgmental depending upon which side youre on.

shumphreys wrote on Dec 2, 2008 10:34 AM: " Vicky trying to get folks to "shift consciousness", "see the light", "move beyond their egos", "see the BIGGER picture" isn't easy. It isn't a task for sissies. I couldnt agree more.

BUT then Jesus, Buddha and a whole host of others had the same difficulties, so we are in good company. I must be in good company as well because Im having difficulty getting folks to see the light and move beyond their egos.

There are even comments in the Bible where Jesus appears to get frustrated at the density of some of his disciples." Did you ever wonder WHY Jesus got frustrated with his disciples? Was it their density or was it their inability to comprehend what He was saying. One is a comment on the person and another is a comment on their ability or inability. You just defined the difference between judging and being judgmental. Now go back and see who is judging a persons behavior (abortion) and who is being judgmental by labeling someone for what the believe.

The result SHOULD cause you some degree of embarrassment but Id be $1 it wont "

" Honestly Mr. Right we aren't teaching or condoning killing. We are saying put your money where your mouth is, do something constructive that will actually make a difference, AND show some compassion for those that find themselves in a difficult situation. It isn't your job or mine to decide when it is "killing" and when it isn't. It is hypocritical for a nation or an individual to approve of killing in some situations and diasapprove in others, such as the death penalty, war, police, self-defense. If "killing" is the issue then ALL killing is wrong and should be treated equally. "

" Don't be silly Mr. Right you are firmly stuck on your ego you can't see or feel for anyone other than your self. "

" You are grasping at straws Mr. Right. "One is a comment on a person one is a comment on their ability or disability." You need to learn to make clearer arguments. Density is a description of the ability of a person to grasp a concept. AND I already explained to you the two uses of judgment, one is used in the evaluative sense to help produce constructive improvements the other is used in the self-righteous, condemnation sense with no redeeming purpose or value. Believe it or not I am trying to help you become a better person by pointing out the error of your ways/thinking. One more difference between us, I am speaking up for the rights of all people, you are only concerned about yours. "

" I totally agree with Mr Right......
I had four kids... 3 were accidents and i loved every little accident. As for people being killed that are elctrocuted ...they have spilled innocent blood and that my friend in murder (who ever uses the argument that elctocition is murder.) "

" Looking at this issue purely from a logical point of view, if abortion is murder, then any type of execution is also murder. Putting it simply, murder is murder, whether it's down with a gun by a crazed gun nut or by the state in a nice sanitary death chamber.

The same goes for those that want to make exceptions for abortions such as rape, incest, or the mothers life is in danger. Again using the logic, abortion in those cases would also be murder.

Some of the staunchest supporters of the death penalty and also anti abortion. This seems contradictory to me.

The problem is that we seldom look at things logically, and in most case our emotions sway of views. This is especially true when it comes to abortions issues. "

" shumphreys: I have repeatedly said "I believe this", "I believe that", "I believe this is right and this is wrong", etc.

You have said, "You ARE this", "You ARE that" and the topper, "Who are we to judge."

Yes, I am the judgmental one, aren't I?


"You need to learn to make clearer arguments." I need? I NEED? I'll determine my own needs, thank you - especially since if you think sex is a NEED, I can only imagine what other luxuries you think are "needs". And I'm not sure I need to make clearer arguments, I think the arguments are clear. I think it's the fog over the receptive device that is the hinderance.

"AND I already explained to you the two uses of judgment..." Yes you have. And you are blatantly incorrect by the very definition of the words.

"Believe it or not I am trying to help you become a better person by pointing out the error of your ways/thinking." No, I believe you are trying to help me be a better person. That's the problem. You are judging me as a person and not by what I do or say. and you have decided what is necessary to make me a "better person". Thanks, but with help like that, I don't need any more hinderances. But I keep forgetting you're the one with the Gold Standard by which to compare.

"One more difference between us, I am speaking up for the rights of all people, you are only concerned about yours. " Does "all people" include the children who are killed due to being an inconvenience? No, I don't believe it does. Therefore, you are speaking up for the rights of SOME people - those for whom you have chosen to speak up. They can speak for themselves . . . they don't need you. What about those inconveniences that CAN'T speak for themselves. Oops . . . you forgot about them. But after all . . . what an inconvenience. "

" shumphreys: You have overlooked one teeny tiny minor point . . . EVERY ONE OF MY QUESTIONS THAT YOU CANNOT OR WILL NOT ANSWER!

Other than that, you're right on the mark! "

" (Looking at this issue purely from a logical point of view, if abortion is murder, then any type of execution is also murder. Putting it simply, murder is murder, whether it's down with a gun by a crazed gun nut or by the state in a nice sanitary death chamber.)

Absolutely true.

(The same goes for those that want to make exceptions for abortions such as rape, incest, or the mothers life is in danger. Again using the logic, abortion in those cases would also be murder.)

Almost true. With the exception of the mothers life being endangered. "

" First, having some respect for the various musings and salient points from Mr. Potter, I will be a little more civil in this response than I am toward shumphreys insidious babble. (Just for clarification, that was a comment about what she SAYS and not WHO she IS.) With that,

Harry Potter wrote on Dec 3, 2008 11:10 AM: " Looking at this issue purely from a logical point of view, if abortion is murder, then any type of execution is also murder. Putting it simply, murder is murder, whether it's down with a gun by a crazed gun nut or by the state in a nice sanitary death chamber.

I respectfully disagree. People are executed because they committed a crime and according to the laws, a crime includes intent explicit or implied. This means people are executed because of their behavior, i.e. something they have done. Children are executed because they are an inconvenience to their mother (over 70% of the time). This means children are executed for who they ARE and they havent even had a chance to show ANYONE who they ARE.



The same goes for those that want to make exceptions for abortions such as rape, incest, or the mothers life is in danger. Again using the logic, abortion in those cases would also be murder.

I cannot disagree with this point, however the rape, incest argument is the first argument raised by those who are in favor of the indiscriminate killing of children. Given that less than 2% of the reason for all abortions as given by those actually getting an abortion is because of rape or incest, the argument does nothing to answer any questions, but goes miles toward dodging the issue. If memory serves me correctly, someone on another thread here very recently made a statement about people dodging issues. One might want to search for that statement to see what was said . . . . . .

With regard to the mothers life being in danger, this is also another quick retort by those who would favor wiping out that which inconveniences. Im not charging Mr. Potter with a knee-jerk reaction here since he posed this point as more of a question of logic than a retort. The life of the mother reason, however is less than 6% of the reasons given for having an abortion. So those anti-inconvenience proponents use less than 8% of the reasoning to apply to 100% of the situations.


Again I want to be clear that I am not misreading what Mr. Potter wrote and the context in which he wrote it, and this is not directed toward him, but having said that . . .

Using the exception to argue the rule is a first-line tactic used by those who would cloud the issues to gain their agenda. It reminds me of the Saturday Night Live skit of the guys in Chicago sitting around a table in a bar asking Hurricane or Mike Ditka. Who is tougher? The next guy says, The Hurricane. So the first one says, Yeah, but what if the hurricane were named Hurricane Ditka? There they are adding qualification upon qualification to cloud the issue to make their point by diverting you from the REAL point.

I like to call them the yabbuts. Yeah, but this. and Yeah, but that. Anything to dodge the issue that children are mercilessly killed on a daily basis by people who find them to be an inconvenience in their own lives. What makes the whole thing worse is that those who favor such a stance are applauded for their boldness toward freedom of choice. To me, its more cowardice toward facing the dilemma of trying to justify the trading one innocent person's life for the freedom of another to choose one-to-one.

Some of the staunchest supporters of the death penalty and also anti abortion. This seems contradictory to me. I wouldnt call myself a staunch supporter of the death penalty (and I'm not implying Mr. Potter did), but Im certainly not completely against the death penalty and Im pretty sure anyone who has read thus far knows my stance on abortion. Killing as punishment for a persons behavior is I believe different from killing to avoid an inconvenience coming from someone who has done nothing at all. "

" Thanks for the civil response, Mr Right.

Various musings and salient points?

That's not how some people refer to my posts. LOL!

If you continue to post on this site you will see that strong opinions often illicit strong reactions.

Not complaining, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Putting that aside, allow me to explain my rationale for opposing the death penalty.

It seems to me that the death penalty is too kind. Putting some low life scumbag out of his misery is doing him or her a favor. I think putting them in a cage for the rest of their life, with no possibility of release is a more fitting form of punishment. As they rot away they would have a long time to live with what the did.

Granted if someone committed a heinous crime against one of my of family members I might not feel this way, but at this point in my life that's the way I see it.

As you no doubt noticed, I didn't actually give my opinion on abortion.

That's another topic for another day. "

" Where have you been hiding Mr. Right, people are sent to death row who are innocent, they have not committed any crime other than being black, being poor,being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The fact is that killing is killing whatever "excuse we make to justify" the action. As I have said again and again whether you like reality or not, SEX is a need, accidents happen, and abortions will always be needed for a wide variety of reasons and the compassionate person does not judge, second guess, demand explanations BUT does what can be done to see that adequate SEX education is provided, that FREE birth control is provided, and that full and complete health care services are provided whether a woman chooses to go through with a pregnancy or not. "

" The problem with your argument Mr. Right is that you are insisting that a human life starts at conception. That is an argument you will never win. Lets see is conception when sperm meets egg, or is it when fertilized egg is implanted in the womb, or is it when that fertilized egg becomes something more than just a mass of tissue, or when it becomes viable at 24 weeks gestation, BUT then you are ignoring the uncomfortable reality that fetuses/babies at that stage often though not always, have lifelong learning and health issues that are a great expense and someone has to foot the bill, (neonatal units are very expensive not to mention the costs of special education teachers, etc. etc.) BUT then you also have to take into consideration cases of rape and incest, health issues of fetus and mother. The entire abortion issue is NOT about the innocent lives of cute little babies. That emotional appeal is made by men like you who are incapable of facing reality, are unable to see beyond their own self interests and have the compassion of a rock for the needs of others. "

" shumphreys wrote on Dec 4, 2008 8:47 AM: "Where have you been hiding Mr. Right, people are sent to death row who are innocent, they have not committed any crime other than being black, being poor,being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The fact is that killing is killing whatever "excuse we make to justify" the action."

Please re-read my response to Mr. Potter's post where I explicitly stated "I wouldn't call myself a staunch supporter of the death penalty" so I don't see your comment about mine to be relevant to this issue. Another case of "Ready, Fire, Aim!"



"As I have said again and again whether you like reality or not, SEX is a need..."

Okay, just for the sake of argument, I'll temporarily agree that sex is a need. I have that need. Evidently it is incumbent upon someone to fulfill that need. Where do I go to fulfill that need? Oh, and I insist that it be free since I'm not able to pay for it myself.


I have responded to almost each of your questions and comments throughout your entire thread. You have been dodging my questions the whole time. Until you decide to respond to at least 10% of the questions I've asked of you, the remainder of your posts on this topic will sound like Charlie Brown's teacher. I'm tired of responding and point out your lapses in consistency only to read how you dodge the questions. Have a nice day. I'll debunk your "logic" on another topic soon. "

" Sorry . . . I didn't see THIS post at the time I read the previous one, so . . .

shumphreys wrote on Dec 4, 2008 9:01 AM: "The problem with your argument Mr. Right is that you are insisting that a human life starts at conception."

The problem with YOUR argument is that it has nothing to do with the fact that most abortions are a matter of getting rid of an inconvenience. Address the "inconvenience" point as it was stated and kindly stop sidestepping it.



"Lets see is conception when sperm meets egg, or is it when fertilized egg is implanted in the womb, or is it when that fertilized egg becomes something more than just a mass of tissue..."

It's NEVER just a mass of tissue. It's a BABY. When was the last time you were invited to a "Fetus Shower"? Do you remember Amy Grant's first crossover hit, "Tissue mass, Tissue mass"? Or who can forget the old classic winter tune, "Fetus, It's Cold Outside"? Ever seen a woman wearing a TShirt with an arrow pointing down with the words "Tissue Mass On Board"? It's a BABY.



"BUT then you are ignoring the uncomfortable reality that fetuses/babies at that stage often though not always, have lifelong learning and health issues that are a great expense and someone has to foot the bill..."

No, I'm not ignoring any reality. So the baby has a lifelong learning or health issue. Which means . . . . .? Shall we indiscriminately kill those children who have them but have happened to have escaped the womb before someone took advantage of "choice"? I'll agree that it's expensive. If that's a viable argument - which it's not - let's wait until Sen. Obama takes office and we get free medical care! Will that stop abortions because raising a child with health issues will no longer be an expensive proposition? If you think it will, you're smoking something.



"BUT then you also have to take into consideration cases of rape and incest..."

Ahh . . . here we go . . . the 2% escape clause to cover 100% of inconveniences. If you'd like to talk about a tired and overworn cliche, let's pick THAT one to discuss! I'm not sweating it because YOU won't answer it.

"That emotional appeal is made by men like you who are incapable of facing reality..." Yes, it's me that refuses to see that it's perfecly okay to kill someone if they inconvenience you.

"...are unable to see beyond their own self interests..." Please explain to me how a man MY age who has never had and never WILL have an abortion and who is past child-creating age has ANY self-interenst at stake in the abortion issue? Here's yet ANOTHER question, you won't address!

"...and have the compassion of a rock for the needs of others..." I covered the "needs of others" argument in a previous post. You haven't answered that one and you never will.

You have not answered one question I've posed to you throughout this entire exchange on this thread. Not ONE! I have rebutted almost ALL of the nonsensical diverting of the issue you have submitted as reason. Until you can answer a direct question or respond to a direct point with counter logic and intelligence, I'm done with you for this thread. Ball's squarely in your court. "

" Please don't forget....your contributions to Planned Parenthood are tax deductible. "

" father bob wrote on Dec 4, 2008 11:36 AM: " Please don't forget....your contributions to Planned Parenthood are tax deductible. "

Just like they are to ANY religious organization. "

" There is no contradiction Harry. If you, with malice, take someones life from them, you in turn forfeit your right to life. The unborn, however, has no say in whether they live or die, thus the need for protection. This is the very basis of the Conservative position. "