" Steve,

You appear to be saying the politicians spend the tax dollars on themselves - is that what you are saying? If so, you are wrong.

They spend the money on things their district or State requires or needs, like roads, signs, transportation, senior centers, community centers, mowing, snow plowing, etc...

Socialism is when wealth and power are distributed evenly. There is not one candidate offering that this year.

Both presidential candidates want to 'share' the wealth and put it to good use elsewhere.

John McCain:

"I am disappointed that the Senate Finance Committee preferred instead to cut the top tax rate of 39.6% to 36%, thereby granting generous tax relief to the wealthiest individuals of our country at the expense of lower- and middle-income American taxpayers." [McCain Senate floor statement, May 21, 2001]

"But when you look at the percentage of the tax cuts thatas the previous tax cutsthat go to the wealthiest Americans, you will find that the bulk of it, again, goes to wealthiest Americans." [NBCs "Today," Jan. 7, 2003]

He's giving tax cuts to mainly the wealth and corporations. But he's also spending money on health care and energy.

Barack Obama:

Wants to use some of those taxcuts that were given to the wealthiest (putting them back to where they were in the 90s when we had a SURPLUS), oil companies and corporations and use them to build up the middle class, our infrastructure (which will create jobs), help give new incentives for new energy sources that will create new jobs, give small companies incentives for hiring employees and give preventive health care to all -- which in the long run will save us ALL money.

Yes the first couple of years will increase our deficit, but after that, the new jobs will bring in more revenue to help payoff our bills.

Some of that money will come from getting out of Iraq where we are currently spending 10 billion a month at.

You are one of those, it sounds like anyway, that believes people should rely on their church and neighbors for help -- you seem to forget that not everybody has 'connections' or 'family' to get help from. Not everybody had a good job thru out their lives and were able to save money for retirement or disability.

In my view, there's good government use and bad. Yes there is abuse -- for the most part however - that can be controlled with the right leadership.

Just as we have financial consultants, we sometimes need someone to help us put our money to better use. Force us to save for Soc Sec retirement, or force us to cover our children's health care if possible - for example. "

" Ask yourself this: Why are hundreds of borrowed taxpayer billions being given to the wealthiest people in America, the criminals who CAUSED this world finance crisis? What is the upper limit of taxpayer debt that you would permit to be created and forked over to the Republican Partys biggest campaign contributors? How long do you think the Wall Street bailout can provide a Band-Aid on the hemorrhage of an exponentially growing national debt that Bush has already DOUBLED?
Look at George Bush, Hank Paulson and the Republicans for a living definition of kleptocracy, a word that means government by thieves. "

" John McCain is lucky he can spell his own name if you ask me but either way yeah politicians are crooks, If we had any idea of half the corruption going on... "

" Bush and co, lowered taxes on the top four brackets, 3 percent to 4.6 percent, by 2003. It seems the last four years have been a pretty big hay maker for politicians. McCain wants to lower them more. Who benefited from lower taxes? How did the economy fall so far in just the last four years of lower taxes and reduced regulation oversights?

In 2003 taxable income of 100k, wound up owing taxes of 23.7 percent. The limits being pushed up on the brackets, have lowered that percentage even more. Increased deductions, shelters and write offs, knock the taxable income much lower. Poor poor doing quite well people. I don't know how they survived this long. Bush let them keep lots more of thier money, and the economy went in the toilet. Doesn't that completely contradict the republican reaganomics/bushcology/palinomics they are still trying to sell. I got a case of snake oil, from the 30's. Its nostalgic in the bottles, but useless as a remedy for anything. Its likely harmful if not fatal by now. I don't have to try a dose of it every so often to be prety sure it is. Its odd snake oil platforms, are still trying to be sold door to door. Its even odder, some folks having whitnessed the last eight years, just want to keep their party in charge so bad, they don't mind that its built on absolutely nothing substancial.

If the republicans ever rise to prominance again, get out of the markets, and get a fire proof safe. The next time they torpedo this country from the inside, with their trend of more and worse domestice collateral damage left in their wake, its not going to bode well, for recovery potential.

If they come up with 12 trillion dollars, to just cover their national debt footprints, we might think about giving them a shot again. In four years, Rove will have his conservative clan marching in lock step, and seeking a chance at redemption. They will publicly repent for their transgressions, and promise to do the peoples work from now on. Didn't GW have some good ideas, and plans for the future. I don't recall how many of them mad it to fruition. I don't remember the brink of disaster, being one of the promises, but he sure was strong on maintaining that direction, throughout. "

" Hey Coonbug,

Why don't you look at what the rich oil companies got out of the 2005 energy bill that your demigod voted for. "

" www.ashbrook.org

Progressive income taxes, by their very nature, violate this fundamental principle of legitimacy. They represent the very worst sort of tyranny of the majority, for they subject a small portion of citizensthose with the highest incomesto taxes imposed by the consent of other citizens, the majority of voters, who do not pay taxes. Indeed, that was the story of the origin of the Sixteenth Amendment, which empowered Congress to levy taxes on income. When the Amendment was ratified in 1913, it was sold to voters in the western states as a way to soak the luxurious incomes of industrialists in the East. And very few people paid the first income tax, which was only 1% on the first $20,000 of taxable income, with the rate raised to only 7% on income above $500,000. As late as 1939, only 5% of the population filed returns. As journalist David Brinkley has noted, the income tax was voted into law by people who were confident it would punish the rich they despised while they themselves would never have to pay it. Envy and resentment [of wealth] carried the day. Its not surprising, then, that public opinion polls today show little support among voters generally for easing the federal tax burden: a large portion of Americans continue to pay little or no income taxes at all!

Because it discriminates against individuals simply because they have higher incomes, a progressive income tax also violates another fundamental principle of our constitutional government: that individuals are equal under the law. The minority of Americans who shoulder the federal income tax burden are denied the equal protection of laws. Moreover, when we consider the full impact of the federal budget, it is clear that the federal income tax is an integral part of a massive redistribution of Americans wealth. Thus, it constitutes class legislationthe type of law that takes property from A. and gives it to B.which, as Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase noted in 1798, violates the great first principles of the social compact.

If we really care about fairness, legitimacy, and equality under the law, we need to abolish progressive taxation and institute a flat-rate tax, preferably applied to consumption rather than income. "

" So, I guess some of you think it's OK to give Oil companies and their investors billions of dollars MORE in tax breaks - Right?

Talk about SPREADING the WEALTH -- Oh I see now, it's capitalism if you spread it among the wealthy and it's socialism if you spread it among everybody - even the poor.

Geez I sure had that wrong.

http://coonsey.wordpress.com/

Go vote and let me know if you've voted Early for President. "

" Yes Coonbug, you do have it wrong.

Sen. Obama voted for the 2005 Energy Bill. Thomas Friedman referred to the bill as the sum of all lobbies. U.S. PIRG noted that the bills heavy tilt toward big oil companies reflects the influence of Exxon Mobil and other oil companies on policy-makers in Washington, DC.

The Washington Post editorialized that the bill was a piata of perks for energy industries. Indeed, the bill contained $6 billion in subsidies to the oil and gas industry and $12 billion to the nuclear power industry.

Although Sen. Obama voted for the legislation, he has spoken as if he opposed it on the campaign trail, criticizing it repeatedly. At a presidential debate he said You can look at how Dick Cheney did his energy policyhe met with oil and gas companies forty times, and thats how they put together our energy policy. Hes attributed the failure of our current energy policy to Congresss failure to stand up to the lobbyists.

Sen. Obamas rhetoric blasting the policies of Vice President Dick Cheney and energy lobbyists can be stirring. But Obamas actions havent matched his words.

Obama is all about his friends with the big cash. Just like Fannie Mae. It's no wonder he lied about accepting public campaign money. He's rolling in cash now. He's sure gonna have a lot of favors to pay back if he gets elected. "

" this whole exercise is a joke.

facts are....we've borrowed almost 10 trillion from china, we've allocated another 800 billion to bail out the financial sector....and that may only be the tip of the iceberg. a war that's costing 3 billion a month, we have bridges collapsing, highways in disrepair..etc, etc, etc...

and just how do you think we'll have to pay for all this? TAXES, and if you say your candidate is not going to raise taxes, you'd best turn off the TV and radio for a while and do some serious thinking.

now who gets taxed more than others is the debate. do you tax corporate america, and the wealthy more because they can afford it, or do you tax the masses who have trouble paying their bills and putting food in the table?

i can guarantee you the AIG executives weren't discussing my mortgage problems while they were on their weekend juntas. they were more than likely discussing their golden parachutes, travel plans, mansions or airplanes. but yet WE have to bail their corporate @sses out.....and the republicans want to give them MORE TAX BREAKS!

and just how many jobs does AIG provide in your city? zero...and that's just one example.

time to take the blinders off and get serious....this is deadly serious....but there are people who want 4 more years of the same. more war endless war in iraq, more tax breaks to the corporations and wealthy america, while strapping the tab on YOUR back to pay.....happy days? not for a long time regardless of who is elected. the only choice is to what degree you are going to be a slave to the national debt. "

" Very good article from Democratic author Orson Scott Card bashing the MSM who spent more time digging up dirt on Joe the Plummer than Obama.

http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/081017light.html "

" Do the American people want more of the same, until the only people left standing are the very rich?

Do the American people want to continue feeding what can only be called greedism, just to avoid any faint scent or whiff of dreaded "socialism"?

Instead, isn't it time to recognize greedism for the despicable, addictive, soul-destroying monster that it is? Shouldn't wealth without compassion be despised, not prized?

We've been living the redistribution of wealth to our country's detriment. Look what it has given us. And yet John McCain and Sarah Palin are trying to set one part of the country against the other -- those with money against those without.

They are crafting a fiction that generosity is bad for all of us because it might require that the wealthiest give up something they've long accused the poor of refusing to relinquish - entitlements.

Americans don't fear socialism because it isn't going to happen. They don't fear the redistribution of wealth but the permanent distribution of poverty at their doorsteps. They fear the demise of fairness.

What happened to all of us carrying some burden so that none of us is deprived? "True Americans" are not the people who wear the right hats, as Sarah Palin has implied. They are people who want for their children and other people's children a fair shake, a leg up when needed, and a shot at the dream. "

" ed miller wrote on Oct 22, 2008 10:43 AM:
" Very good article from Democratic author Orson Scott Card bashing the MSM who spent more time digging up dirt on Joe the Plummer than Obama.

http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/081017light.html """""

WOAH!....now i know why you're SOOOOOO out there in left field. i wondered why you sounded like a neocon rightwing bible thumper. "

" Coonbug said: "They spend the money on things their district or State requires or needs, like roads, signs, transportation, senior centers, community centers, mowing, snow plowing, etc..."

That is true. Some of it gets spent that way, but the vast majority gets spent as pork to get them re-elected to they can continue their large salaries, state of the art health care plan, lavish retirement, etc. and retaining power. The lust for power is overwhelming. "

" FB,

You made some good points in your posts. Both candidates are flat out lying about tax cuts. The tax system is unfair and needs to be scrapped. Both sides are playing class warfare, The right against the poor and the left against the rich when the middle class gets soaked in the end.

BTW, I'm not a Morman (not that there's anything wrong with that). I noticed that link was an LDS mag after I posted it. I read the article before and just Googled it for a quick link. I knew that one of you would jump all over that. "

" What is one person's PORK is another's necessity.

Yes there is abuse; but it can be fixed with the right leadership. John McCain has his OWN PORK he fails to mention. He has to be bringing SOMETHING home or his voters in Arizona wouldn't bother voting for him. "

" Ed, do you REALLY want to discuss who's SUPPORTED the oil companies over the past 26 years? Do you?

I highly recommend you do a little research on YOUR guy before going down that path. Thanks for the info tho. "

" "C*nt": McCain Makes Classic Freudian Slip On The Stump "

" No Coonbug, how about discussing the CURRENT candidates.

BTW, I don't have a "guy" yet. "

" How about Obama's "muslim" slip, or was that the truth slipping out? "

" BTW, I don't have a "guy" yet. "

--------------

good one eddie! "

" Arizona gets a nice chunk of fereral dollars per capita.

McCain is a firm fella as far as requesting pork. His claim of zero, is not true. He has requested some sizable federal contributions, to projects in earmarks, but none lately. His pork was obviously turkey bacon, to him, and still is, as he stands completely on his record.

I cited specifics before, but would have to look again to relocate them.

Obama has been on the trail, for more than a year and a half. He faced tougher battles and harsher opponents in the primaries, and before. Palin has seen little harsh questioning, since her pick, and has crumbled at having a basic knowledge on anything. Joe the plumber became news, because McCain outed him as a representative of some specific demographic segments of the population, without anyone in his campaign bothering to do more than look at a clip on utube to vet his background.

Joe was presented prominently to the nation. This made his McCain presented story news for the current cycle. It quickly unraveled, and blew up in the GOP's face. McCain can't even verify partly, a stance he makes a point to make headlines with, prior to bringing it to a national audience.

News groups were on the phone with Joe, before the debate had concluded. they were on his lawn and in his drive, the following morning. He did several interviews, and initialy was quoted as, its surreal, I would rather the debate focused on more issues, more people face then just one I brought up. But I am sure the eventual follow up, would find him regretting even going and standing in the line, and especially posing hypetheticals on camera. Now is a bad time to be out of work, he and his boss plumb without a license, in a county that requires plumbers to have one. It is likely the company will be no ones to buy in short order. "

" Why should McCain need a background check on Joe the Plumber? He was only a hypothetical example of how Obama would tax everyone to death, not just the public personna of a "rich" guy. The actual individual could have been anyone. It should be a non-issue in the campaign. But no, our worthless media won't let it die. As usual, the MSM spent all their energy to discredit this idiot just to shove the whole thing in McCain's face, and for what? It speaks nothing of the issues facing the country. Meanwhile, they have given a free pass to the Liberal Messiah on topics like his association with racists, terrorists, his lack of a past, the worthless two acts of legislation he always brags about, or most importantly, disecting his empty "spread the wealth" promises to the American Liberal Sheep. "

" In many professions, don't ask questions you don't know the answer to, is an unwritten guide of conduct. Political debates and campaigns, usually adhere to this idea.

McCain could have made a completely hypathetical statement, and been largely unscathed. When he cited the interaction with Joe, as his source, he opened the can of worms for Joe to face. I watched the debate, he talked about Joe quite a bit. Press of all flavors, brands and varieties, saw this as a public interest news point to follow up on.

At the very least, McCain should have had someone contact Joe, to get his ok, for using him as the poster child of what effects Obama's tax changes could cause in the way of effect on an individual. If Joe had been all or even close to McCains built up persona, it would have been a mark to chalk up against Obama.

Some folks are going to pay more in taxes. Some consequences are going to come from that. It completely eroded the point, when Joe turned out to be nothing McCain said. Is it going to spell poverty and ruine, having to pay 3 percent more in taxes for income over 250k, some folks think their wealth is just getting by, as I cited before from the couple living in Manhattan, and worried about a tax increase crimping their stretched thin dollars.

Obama is just allowing the top Bush tax cuts to expire. They were set in 1993, and the rest of the 90's were pretty good to the wealthy, and most of the middle class.

Associations were thrashed over months ago. Look at the coverage of the last year and a half, if you long for fodder on these topics. Not many publications thrive on old news. If something new pans out, count on the press to pounce all over it. Headlines sell papers, old news, gets books written on it. Now a campaign on nothing only has old news to keep tossing out, and see how many sharks come to circle their boat. Its baseless accusations, long gone in the news cycle. In a year and a half, out in the fray, this is the most opponents have, to try to raise questions. That says a mouth full. "

" ed miller wrote on Oct 22, 2008 7:58 PM:
" Why should McCain need a background check on Joe the Plumber? He was only a hypothetical example of how Obama would tax everyone to death, not just the public personna of a "rich" guy.""

WOAH there einstein....mccain trumped up this guy and tried to run with the story....and like so many others, it's proven to be nothing more than a fairy tale.....no he's facing the facts and can't worm out of it....just like you ed. "

" typical GOP....just a quick review of a few of their latest statements. don't forget...vote early - vote often!

It's come down to this. Republicans are so afraid of progressive change that they're willing to do anything to get elected. Rep. Bachmann from Minnesota kicked off the hate last week by demanding an investigation of members of Congress to determine, "are they pro-America or anti-America?"

Then other Republicans got into the act. Rep. Hayes of North Carolina claimed that, "Liberals hate real Americans that work and achieve and believe in God." As if this wasn't direct enough, Rep. Kuhl from New York explained that "I firmly believe the Democratic majority wants the American public to suffer and to hurt." "

" Ed Miller says: Both candidates are flat out lying about tax cuts. The tax system is unfair and needs to be scrapped. Both sides are playing class warfare, The right against the poor and the left against the rich when the middle class gets soaked in the end.

By the way, Ed, you seem to think that the "left" aren't "rich". Better check your stats. The rich are well represented in both parties. For example, does the name Warren Buffet ring a bell?

Ed, the reason the politicians resist all efforts to dump our current tax system is because the status quo provides an unmanagable maze in which there are a million rooms to hide the truth from the public. The Federal Income Tax Code alone is over 66,000 pages long and is full of tax favors granted to certain industries, organizations, companies, even individuals.

Check out Fairtax.org. It's a fair and simple tax proposal where everything is right out in the open - no more hidden taxes! It completely eliminates almost every Federal tax on the books today and replaces it with a straightforward tax on consumption. And the best part of all - the poor don't pay any tax at all, not even Social Security taxes!

The only problem a politician has with The Fair Tax is that it prevents them from hiding favors done for special interest groups and lobbyists.

You want a tax system that favors no one? Support The Fair Tax. "

" Father Bob are you serious about your last post? Surely we aren't heading for another McCarthy witch hunt? Or are we? My father was charged and brought before the House Unamerican Committee, before I was born. He worked as a civilian with the AirForce in Psychology and fraternized with Blacks and enlisted men. How seditious can you get? He was lucky he never suffered lasting job harm from the farce. Unfortunately many weren't so lucky. If Republican's are starting down this path than the US is in trouble. They have become their own worst enemy. "

" The media is trying to make this issue about that stupid wannabe plumber and not that Obama will raise taxes on small business owners. He is trying to convince his gullible flock that he is only going to raise taxes for these mythical rich people, sitting around in their mansions, plotting to steal money from the poor. Well, guess what happens when business owners are taxed more? They have to cut back. They eliminate jobs or send them overseas and hold off investments in their businesses that create even more jobs indirectly. Obama says he wants to spread the wealth around. Well, I don't have much wealth, but what I do have is not his to give away. "

" An oldie but goodie...


Suppose that everyday 10 men go to dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If it was paid the way we pay our taxes, the first four men would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1; the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; the ninth $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.


The 10 men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until the owner threw them a curve. Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20. Now dinner for the 10 only costs $80.


The first four are unaffected. They still eat for free. Can you figure out how to divvy up the $20 savings among the remaining six so that everyone gets his fair share? The men realize that $20 divided by 6 is $3.33, but if they subtract that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being paid to eat their meal.


The restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.


And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of $59. Outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out the $20," declared the sixth man pointing to the tenth, "and he got $7!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me! "That's true," shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks." "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor."


The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important They were $52 short.


And that, boys and girls and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Switzerland and the Caribbean. "

" McCain made the wannabe plumber an issue in a debate televised to millions, world wide. Avoiding this exact thing, is why fact checks are usually done prior. Joe could have been a skin head or much worse than a republican, they out him as their example.

Most higher brackets are going to result in less taxes than they did in clintons administration. Bracket limits have been raised substancially. Higher limits at the lower bracket percentages, give bigger reductions to the wealthy.

The 90's were pretty good to small business. Lower taxes, and the resulting multi level declines and collapses, is not real good for any income level.

The middle class, drives the economy. The better they do, the better every aspect of it does. If it stalls, or fails, every level of the pyramid, feels the effects. Our middle class, is now contributing to the economy of the world. Our buying power, is the sole driving catalyst, for sucess.

Uninforced regulations, and the resulting mismanagements, have undermined these long established foundations and intricate fabrics.

Businesses cutting american workforces are contributing to their own demise. American workers buy their goods. Other businesses depend on the markets driven by workers wages. Every one job cut, is cutting several in other businesses and markets.

Chevy and Chrysler are looking to combine. Neither have been good at the business they are in, for decades. Both have moved production outside our boders, in ever increasing numbers. This combination is going to further doom the both of them. They had better expand their markets elsewhere. They will further shrink their markets here, with the cuts and reductions likely to take place.

Us industry drives our economy. Increasing exports was great, it didn't have to add jobs to the biggest exports list, as a result. Our trade deficit is a moot point. It is pretty high again. Its not even mentioned in politics any more. Many imports are formerly domesticly produced products now. Prices aren't any cheaper, but their poduction costs are. Transportation costs are higher, but wages, benefits, safety, and related costs, offset those increases. How can those circumstances of lower overall cost imput, lead directly to declines in sales and profits? If jobs go, markets for many businesses go with them, or are drasticly reduced.

Business can't fathom that paying a decent wage and benefits, is much more than a one time cost, on the production end of items.

Every factory job, keeps jobs in retail, finance, medical, and countless other markets. Those markets all buy drive and maintain cars or other products. Cutting jobs, cuts markets, and that translates directly to lower sales.

Basic economic principles are ignored to build a bottom line that still has to adhere to fundamental economic dynamics. Few people get the reality of quality jobs = growth and profit potential.

From TIF to extra sales taxes, this areas leaders are just as ignorant of reality as big business and the big three automakers long have been. They are all undermining their own potential. Resulting rippling effects carries it beyond their direct impact, and passes it to many other sectors and aspects. These groups wind up confused, that their plans don't translate to sustainable growth and profit margins. "

" ed miller wrote on Oct 23, 2008 2:57 PM:
" An oldie but goodie..."""

ed the talking head....mr magpie,never has an original thought of his own. i guess maybe with his limited thought process that should be expected. "

" This is what I found to possibly be close on current tax brackets.

0 to 8,025 10%
8,025 to 32,550 15%
32,550 to 78,850 25%
78,850 to 164,550 28%
164,550 to 357,700 33%
357,000 and up 35%


Every dollar earned is taxed at each inclusive bracket rate. The first 8,025 earned is ten percent, and so on.

In 2003 bracket limits were much lower. Someone with exactly 100k in taxable income, owed 23.7 percent in taxes. Today, since just bracket levels have climbed considerably. They now owe just over 18.5 percent in taxes. That is 5.2 percent less, because the lower brackets now see more money taxed at lower rates. The more brackets encountered, the more reductions in overall taxes.

People earning 100k, could get hit with a 3 percent increase, and they would still be paying only 19.16% in taxes now. That is still more than 4.5 percent less than 2003. Its not as drastic as some doom sayers only using part of the story, tell this as being. More deductions and write offs are available, so even if their income is set at 100k taxable in 2003, that figure is likely even less taxable now, giving even more of a reduction for the same earnings . "

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 12:51 PM:
" Father Bob are you serious about your last post? Surely we aren't heading for another McCarthy witch hunt? Or are we? """"

what has the rhetoric from the mccain camp and the RNC been the past few weeks?

and what about the increasingly agitated crowds at the mccain palin events? now they're attacking and assaulting obama backers, minorities including muslim and hispanics...

the hate and rhetoric are increasingly escalating.

if for some catastrophic reason mccain were to be elected, i can see a witch hunt very similar to the mccarthy led UC prosecutions. my wife and updated our passports about 6 months ago, glad we did. there could be great civil unrest. "

" I'm starting to worry about ed miller. I think he might need professional help. "

" Ed: Good analogy. The leftists can't seem to understand even with their vast intelligence that it is people with money that drives the economy. They are the ones who provide the jobs. Taking money from those who have earned it and giving it to those who haven't earned it or paid it in taxes will lead to great unemployment. "

" Remember the childrens story, The House That Jack Built.

Where does income, that contributes to earnings, that result in profits that build wealth, come from?

United Arab Emerates has no taxes. Every wealthy American in the top 5 percent, could relocate there. We would notice little effect, they would see quite a difference.

The middle class funded the wealth accumulation, it would replace the defectors in short order, voids would be quickly filled, and perhaps the resulting wealthy would respect the true forces that allow them to thrive or fail, and if that truely were to happen trickle down economics might actually transpire.

Americas middle class provides the markets for wealth and profits to be built from. If rich people pull out of this market, they cut their income off. If they could survive on just interest from their wealth, they would be just fine. How many rich people invest their money to maintain, and seek no further gains?

Wealth is driven by the middle class. To state any notion of any concept that wealth fuels our economy, is beyond out of touch.

If business and industry expanded jobs here, it would build the markets here. They want their cake and to eat it to. Rules regulations, and protections do have a price. It's not near the price that fleeing them, has dealt to the companies that opted to, and many unrelated companies and business, that depend on middle class jobs and wages, buying and investing to support their profits and costs.

Our economy is like a river. Many little creeks and streams, contribute to maintaining it flowing. If a majority of the creeks dry up, the river flow drops dramaticly. If five percent of the larger tributaries, see a decline, there is little overall effect. If the little creeks increase flow substancially, the river is running out of the banks very soon. Even the bigger tributaries depend on little creeks and streams, to keep them flowing. Fill in the bed of a tributary, the little creeks and streams, cut out a new one. Dam one off, it fills up and eventually flow down stream is back to a normal rate. "

" Ed, thanks for printing that oldie. You're right, it's been around for awhile - but just as enlightening as the first time I read it. Too bad some of the tax and spenders don't get it, and never will. I don't know whether their dense-ness is due to brain atrophy or plain ol denial - doesn't matter, they just don't seem to get it. A great post. Thanks again. "

" From author Patrick J. Buchanan...more media bias.


Perhaps the only institution in America whose approval rating is beneath that of Congress is the media.

Both have won their reputations the hard way. They earned them.

Consider the fawning indulgence shown insider Joe Biden with the dripping contempt visited on outsider Sarah Palin.

Twice last weekend, Biden grimly warned at closed-door meetings that a great crisis is coming early in the term of President Obama:

"Mark my words. It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. ... Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy."

A "generated crisis"? By whom? Moscow? Beijing? Teheran?

This is an astonishing statement from a chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee who has access to the same intelligence as George Bush. Joe was warning of a crisis like the Berlin Wall of July 1961, where JFK called for a tripling of the draft and ordered a call-up of reserves, or the missile crisis where U.S. pilots like John McCain were minutes away from bombing nuclear missile sites in Cuba and killing the Russians manning them.

Is Russia about to move on the Crimea? Is Israel about to launch air strikes on Iran''s nuclear sites? What is Joe talking about?

If one assumes Joe is a serious man, we have a right to know.

Instead, what we got was Obama's airy dismissal of Joe's words as a "rhetorical flourish" and a mediarather than demanding that Joe hold a press conferenceacting as Obama surrogates parroting the talking points that Joe was just saying that new presidents always face tests.

Had John McCain made that hair-raising statement, he would have been accused of fear mongering about a new 9/11. The media would have run with the story rather than have smothered it.

Contrasting McCain with his hero, Joe declared a few weeks back, "When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and ... said, 'Look, here's what happened.'"

Nice historical reference. Except when the market crashed in 1929, Hoover was president, and there was no television.

Can one imagine what the press would have done to Sarah Palin had she exhibited such ignorance of history. Or Dan Quayle?

Joe gets a pass because everybody likes Joe.

Fine. But Joe also has a record of 36 years in the Senate.

Has anyone ever asked Joe about his own and his party's role in cutting off aid to South Vietnam, leading to the greatest strategic defeat in U.S. history and the Cambodian holocaust? Has anyone ever asked Joe about the role he and his party played in working to block Reagan's deployment of Pershing missiles in Europe, and SDI, which Gorbachev concedes broke the Soviets and won the Cold War?

In the most crucial vote he ever castto give Bush a blank check for war in IraqJoe concedes he got it wrong.

Is Joe's record of having been wrong on Vietnam, wrong in the Cold War, wrong on the Iraq War, less important than whether Sarah Palin tried to get fired a rogue-cop brother-in-law who Tasered her 10-year old nephew to "teach him a lesson"?

"I've forgotten more about foreign policy than most of my colleagues know," says Joe humbly. Given his record, it is understandable Joe has forgotten so much of it.

Saturday, the New York Times did a takeout on Cindy McCain that delved back into her problem with prescription pills. Yet when Hillary's campaign manager, Mark Penn, brought up Obama's cocaine use on "Hardball," he was savaged by folks for whom the Times is the gold standard.

The people apparently had a "right to know" of Bush's old DUI arrest a week before the 2000 election, but no right to know about how and when Obama was engaged in the criminal use of cocaine.

The media cannot get enough of the "Saturday Night Live" impersonations of Palin as a bubblehead. News shows pick up the Tina Fey clips and run them and run them to the merriment of all.

Can one imagine "Saturday Night Live" doing weekly send-ups of Michelle Obama and her "I've never been proud" of my country, this "just downright mean" America, using a black comedienne to mimic and mock her voice and accent?

"Saturday Night Live" would be facing hate crime charges.

How do we know? When the New Yorker ran a cartoon of Michelle in an Angela-Davis afro with an AK-47 slung over her shoulder, New Yorker editors had to go on national television to swear they were not mocking Michelle, but the conservatives who have so caricatured Michelle and The Messiah.

Is there a media double standard? You betcha. "

" and what world do you suppose he lives in?

Bush: People Will 'Look Back' At 'This Moment In Economic History' And Say 'Tax Cuts Work' "

" Here's what you get when the Bush administration pays a private contractor $21 million just to count Iraqi troops.
---
On any given day in Iraq, about 140,000 Iraqi soldiers are on duty. But some 1,000 are in jail, 2,000 are in the hospital or recuperating from injuries, and around 1,000 are absent without leave -- though all are counted as part of the standing Iraqi army that is supposed to one day replace U.S. soldiers on the battlefield.
Nobody, in fact, is exactly sure how many Iraqis are actually on duty -- partly due to problems with a government contract designed to count the soldiers, according to a recent audit.
As a result, five years into the war, the U.S. still doesn't know how many Iraqis stand ready to defend their country. "

" Oopsy. Police reveal that the "mutiliated McCain worker" who was "attacked" by that "tall, black man" who carved a B on her face is just a stinking liar after all. Just like her idols McCain and Palin.
Don't any of these disgusting lies ever embarrass you right wingers? Are you completely beyond moral feeling for what your vicious campaign against Obama has done? "

" Its been long held that any change in administration, faces risk of limits being challenged. Its that way for countries, and businesses, among other hierarchies. Internal and outside factions, test the new leadership. From herding animals, to step parents, to leaders of nations, its pretty prevalent on all levels of established group structures. Another article, hit the wires the same time as Bidens comments, Stating any sucessful candidates could face being tested during the transition phase especially.

I would be more concerned about the feeble scatter brained elderly maverick, and his pageant contestant but makeover show nominee. Weaknesses like that, would have every predator and nut in the world, heading to shake things up, or look ta her pretty get up, up close.

We can't be so busy watching our back from around the world, we forget to keep one eye on our front at home. This financial crisis, is going to raise a lot of tensions. Iraq invading Kuwait, tested our tolerance. Its not new reality, its more fear mongering. Hopefully the days of most americans buying that kind of sales pitch, are behind us by four years.

I would worry more about getting those shelters dug out back. Fear of everything kind of makes it hard to chase the darn kids and animals off your lawns, any more doesn't it? "

" Pat Buchanan? Now there's an objective voice of reason. LOL!

Isn't he the same one who said Palin was qualified to step into the White house if necessary?

Is that Nixon era nut case the best you can come up with, eddie?

Oh well, at least Tommy will be impressed. "

" The Question wrote on Oct 24, 2008 1:49 PM:

Don't any of these disgusting lies ever embarrass you right wingers? Are you completely beyond moral feeling for what your vicious campaign against Obama has done? "
__________

i guess you can't blame some of them since for 10 years they've heard nothing but hate, contempt and lies coming from the mouths of the likes of karl rove, donald rumsfeld, dick cheney and george bush. it's become the accepted norm with rightwing neoconservatives to think that these tenets and "god's" will are all they require or need. for some younger voters, this is all they've ever heard or experienced coming from the mouths of their leaders.....

it's WAY past time for a change. "

" The B was backwards. Something that tends to happen if writing on something while viewed in a mirror.

Lets hope this shattered mind, finds the help it needs. This is how failure affects some of the brianwashed. Doesn't Obama's plan call for increased mental health coverage provided by normal insurance. We may need to invest in some long term care facilities as well. Gated communities if you like. "

" It turns out that John McCain's Pennsylvania communications director was pushing the "mutiliation" lie for all it was worth -- and even told reporters outright that the "B" carved into the victim's cheek stood for "Barack."
This shows you the kind of fascist swine that McCain is employing. "

" While I don't always agree with Pat Buchanan, he hits the nail on the head with this article. Unfortunately, just like the media, the leftists on these blogs will refuse to see the truth of his statements because they don't want to. "

" Here's what your hero Pat Buchanan said on Fox News on Aug. 30, 2006, Reddy.
"What I would like is, I'd like the country I grew up in. It was a good country. I lived in Washington, D.C., 400,000 black folks, 400,000 white folks in a country 89 or 90 percent white. I like that country. We didn't vote to change it."
Do you agree with the "truth of that statement?" Should the U.S. be 90 percent white? "

" A mildly progressive tax system can help create a stable and prosperous middle class and working class, as it did during the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s in the U.S.
What the Republicans have headed toward is a society of a few mega-rich corporate rulers and their vast numbers of subsistence slaves -- the world redesigned as a big, nasty company town. It's a fascist plan that will create, and has created, an unjust, unstable society headed ultimately for civil bloodshed. "

" One week to go, and the Republican are swooning from a massive attack of the vapors
They have nothing left but the mantra of:
FEAR! FEAR! FEAR! THE BIG, BAD, BLACK, MUSLIM, SOCIALIST BOOGEYMEN ARE COMING!
Quite amusing, guys. "

" Republicans seem to portray Sarah Palin and her family as extremely patriotic -- as people who truly love the United States of America. However, her husband was a member of a radical political party that supported the secession of Alaska from the union (in other words secession from the United States of America.) Sarah claims she wasn't involved with the party, but she spoke (via video) to a party meeting at least once. The absolute ultimate in being unpatriotic is supporting the secession of the state in which you live from the United States of America. There are few things that could be more unpatriotic than that. When you support secession you are saying: "I'm not just letting off steam about my complaints concerning my country. I want out of it and I want out of it for good!" Yes, the Palin family is certainly filled with true patriots. "

" I think we've finally found a low:

A copy of the e-mail, provided by Democratic officials, says it was "Paid for by the Republican Federal Committee of PA Victory 2008."

It warns "Fellow Jewish Voters" of the danger of a second Holocaust due to the threats to Israel from its neighbors and touts Republican presidential candidate John McCain's qualifications over those of Obama.

-----------------

And just when you think some Republicans couldn't stoop any lower. Talk about gutter tricks. Karl Rove should would be proud of his legacy. "

" Sarah Palin insists the race isn't over, despite every indication that that it is. I guess Sara can't hear the fat lady singing in the background. "

" I know this is futile but I have to ask you question, how on earth you got out of my post that Pat Buchanan was my hero? Ridiculous the way you twist things that are posted. Are you sure you're not a politician yourself? No, my guess is some self-satisfied, smug, know-it-all college professor.

MattToon you need to stay off those lefty blogs. "

" The latest mantra from the GOP is that electing Obama would be akin to going socialist. After seeing what the Bush/ Cheney regime has done to this county, our economy and our standing in the world, I'll gladly return to some of that Clinton era socialism. I like many others, have had my fill of Republican style government, so McCain and his rookie governor can take a hike. "

" The party that has been screaming "elitist!" for a solid year suddenly declares that how many hundreds of thousands of campaign dollars a candidate spends on her clothes is just none of anyone else's darn business.
Hypocrisy, thy name is GOP. "

" The Question wrote on Oct 27, 2008 8:18 AM:
" The party that has been screaming "elitist!" for a solid year suddenly declares that how many hundreds of thousands of campaign dollars a candidate spends on her clothes is just none of anyone else's darn business.
Hypocrisy, thy name is GOP. """"

isn't $150,000 for outfits kind of....er.....elitist? "

" The Question wrote on Oct 26, 2008 8:41 AM:
" Here's what your hero Pat Buchanan said on Fox News on Aug. 30, 2006, Reddy.
"What I would like is, I'd like the country I grew up in. It was a good country. I lived in Washington, D.C., 400,000 black folks, 400,000 white folks in a country 89 or 90 percent white. I like that country. We didn't vote to change it."
Do you agree with the "truth of that statement?" Should the U.S. be 90 percent white? """"
____________

as long as they're not irish white, or jewish white, or polish white, or italian white, or french white, slovic white or any other kind of inferior white....they need to be american white. born and bred american white. gun toting, bible thumping christian white...godlike white. "

" Are you sure you're not a politician yourself? No, my guess is some self-satisfied, smug, know-it-all college professor.
---
"Self-satisfied?" Perhaps. But I'm certainly less than satisfied with you, Reddy Kilowatt. "

" you can put lipstick on a bigot..... "

" is sara palin literally dangerous?? think not?....spend some time here it's an important thread:

http://tinyurl.com/5zjr53 "

" How would you like to be Mitt Romney, and have to watch the embarrassing display being put on by the backwoods ignoramus, Palin. Poor old Mitt has to be shaking his head in wonderment as to why McCain picked this painted up doofus over him.

Mitt could have afforded his own clothes too. "

" Conservatives lambast Obama because of his comment -- something to the effect that we should spread the wealth around. This supposedly means that Obama is a Commie. These conservatives should realize that ALL taxation spreads the wealth around. Just one little example: state taxes provide for the government to own and operate state parks. Tax monies also pay the salaries of all the many employees of those parks. This is just one small example of the ways that governments at the local, state and federal levels spread the wealth through expenditures for a host of varied programs.
Taxes should (and do) come from people who can afford to pay those taxes. If all these things are Communist then we have had Communism in the U.S. for a very long time. "

" In a little over a week the election will be over. Some will vote or change because of the economy while not having the slightest clue as to why the economy is bad. Many will vote for Obama because he promises to take from the rich and give to the poor, redistribution of wealth is the term he uses. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is the original form of the saying by Karl Marx, father of communism. Many of these people will like this idea because they believe that they will be the recipient of this government largesse, or giveaway. After all, it is easier to let the government take from Peter to pay Paul if you are Paul than to work hard to get it and be Peter. The left has discovered that if you keep a group of people dependent on the governments welfare programs they are prone to keep the politicians in office, therefore perpetuating class envy has been the tool to keep their ship afloat. Staying in office is more important than helping the poor. If helping the poor was the objective there are ways of doing that without bringing other classes of people down.
There are ten sayings that some attribute to Abraham Lincoln although there is some doubt as to whether or not they originated with him, however, they are worth paying attention to:
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer
You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income
You cannot further brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred
You cannot establish security on borrowed money
You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do themselves
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift

The left violates all of these. "

" When the right-wing media was panting for the "McCain worker mutilation" story, John Moody, executive vice president at Fox News, said, "If the incident turns out to be a hoax, Senator McCain's quest for the presidency is over, forever linked to race-baiting."
Fox News was all over the story when they could use it bash Obama. And now that it's been proven to be a hoax? They have scrubbed all references to it from their web site.
That's just how dishonest Fox News is. "

" as long as they're not irish white, or jewish white, or polish white, or italian white, or french white, slovic white or any other kind of inferior white....they need to be american white. born and bred american white. gun toting, bible thumping christian white...godlike white."
---
Duly noted, FB. Racists are so darned particular, aren't they?
Gonna be a lot of dead mockingbirds on the ground when this GOP campaign is finished. "

" Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens, guilty on all counts.
How many corrupt Republicans? How high the moon? "

" Sapient the right also violates those "commandments". Or to be fully honest the extremes on both ends. "

" "You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income."
---
Tell that to your $10 trillion-national debt, drunken-spending Republican president, Sappy.. "

" Since 2003, taxes at the top have been cut, extreme reagonomics have been put in place. Where has any of those republican fostered economic policies benefited anyone?

Sure the top five percent kept 3 to 4.6 percent more of their taxable incomes. In the last five years has that translated to any trickling down? Bush has managed to prove republicn economic policy, is completely misguided, and is even detrimental to the groups that see minimal short term relief in their taxes.

If the middle class, were to form an investment group, that excluded anyone with income over 250k from participating, they could take greater control of their own destinies. If the middle class, divested any involvement in the upper class, it would wither and die. Middle class spending and investment, is the only reason there is an upperclass. Bill Gates, and the Walton family owe their fortunes to middle class people buying and using their business involvements. Every aspect of wealth in this country, has direct links to middle class dollars.

The only step to boost the middle class, has been focusing on raising the minimum wage. This has been a failure to understand the dynamics they are ignoring, in thier own place in the financial food chains.

Our farmers feed the world, and they legislated to subsidise food crops to be used as fuel. Any bio mas fuel, grown in food crop fields, will have the same or worse impact this one decision has had on the world. Waste and byproducts of food and crop processing, could easily be used, for the same end result without impacting markets or subsidising them.

Locally, they usually go to landfills, by the semi load. Food manufacturers, and crop processors, could segregate their bio waste, and possibly even process it to fuel or additives on site. Byproducts, have greater potential, at creating a cost favorable, and overall impact. Focus on alternatives, has been in the wrong directions. Maximizing potential uses of various unutilized waste, should have been the starting point. Instead they jumped to using food for fuel. This one government subsidised miscalculation, has led to higher fuel prices, and food costs, with reduced efficiency in both markets, creating increased demand and further raising the prices of both. This one policy, has impacted the middle class, and the world food and fuel markets. It is just one of the many. "

" Sapient, you have summed it up exactly right. However, those on the left are not honest enough to admit it. And that quote isn't Lincoln's although I used to think so too. At one time, I knew who said that but don't have it right now. Will try to find out. Doesn't matter who said it, it sums up the left's philosophy to a 't.' "

" I hope that none of the people on these blogs believes that Abraham Lincoln was a conservative. The truth is that he was far to the political left (at least by the standards of the 1860s.) This is most obviously true in respect to the issue of slavery. However, there are many other issues that could be cited, such as starting the land grant colleges -- something that was quite liberal for its time. The best example, however, is that Lincoln, in order to fund the Civil War, instituted an income tax. (This was at a time when the income tax wasn't even constitutional, as the Supreme Court later ruled.) Furthermore, his income tax was a progressive tax, with only wealthy, high income people paying such tax. That action was far out to the left for its time. "

" Matt Toon your point about Lincoln is well made. I suspect that many on these blogs do consider him a conservative. He was quite radical for his time. "

" TQ: You might find this hard to believe, but I don't approve of Ted Stevens violating the law and he should pay, and I don't approve of the Republicans spending like a bunch of drunken Democrats either and have expressed my opinion to them. I was cheering the loudest when former Gov. Ryan got sent up the river. That being said, if we eliminated a whole party because of a few shysters your party and mine would both be a thing of the past and we would have to start over with new parties which would probably be as bad as the old ones. "

" The old crook Ted Stevens should end his life staring at prison bars. That's also true of William Jefferson or any other lawmaker on the Democratic side, once convicted, as well as of our own George Ryan.
In a democratic republic, those who violate the public trust by abusing the power they have been given should be dealt with in the severest possible terms. Their actions undermine and endanger the whole system.
The fact that Stevens refuses to admit his criminality is yet another strike against him. "

" sapient: William Boetcker "

" We agree for once, Sappy. Let's not hear anybody defending proven corruption, or trying to excuse it because "everybody does it," supposedly. Down that path lies the complete rot of American society. "

" Iraq is now demanding that the U.S. forces leave its soil by 2011. So I guess it turns out the government of Iraq, like the rest of the world and most of America, agrees with Barack Obama and not George W. "Massive Failure" Bush or John "Permanent War" McCain. "