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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Sunday, October 19, 2008 9:13 PM CDT
LETTER: Cal Thomas disturbing

By KEITH WILSON, Charleston

I am deeply disturbed by your publication of Cal Thomas’s column who while arguing against gay marriage and decrying Senator Obama states, “The aim of the gay rights lobby is to destroy all remnants of biblical values and societal norms.” Certainly a group which aims to destroy all of our most cherished values and norms would understandably elicit hate and fear in the community, especially in these troubled times. But I know of no gay rights group which argues that we should hate one another, hate God, kill our neighbors or steal their belongings. Admittedly, they do wish to violate some societal norms regarding sexual behavior with consenting adults, and, although I don’t share the common reaction, I understand why so many people find that truly disturbing. But that is another thing entirely from “destroy all remnants of biblical values and societal norms.” Frankly I am at loss to why our community paper would invite such a man to spew his seeds of hatred into our midst. I will no longer read any column from this man whose behavior so abundantly violates my biblical values. And I question the values of a paper which invites such an agent of hate into our community.

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father bob wrote on Oct 20, 2008 10:03 AM:

" well said mr. wilson.

this is typical fear mongering from the conservatives. mr. thomas is just a mouthpiece of the GOP and neoconservatives who will do ANYTHING and say ANYTHING to get elected.

you'll notice what a swell job they've done for 8 years....i rank cal thomas right along side on sarah palin as two of the most bigoted radical conservatives sucking air. "

cd wrote on Oct 20, 2008 10:47 AM:

" That is the opinion of Cal Thomas. Like you, Keith Wilson, he has the same right/privelege to have his opinions published. If we question the values of a paper that publishes comments/opinions of the citizens that we dislike, we may as well shut down the papers all together for someone is going to question them on your comments.
Maybe people would be less offended if they would quit being nit-picking about comments and look more at the general focus of the comments.
Then their are those who would complain even they were hung with a new rope. "

People are grasping wrote on Oct 20, 2008 11:05 AM:

" Keith--

I totally support gay rights and find it appalling that someone could say fighting for gay rights is an attempt at destroying biblical and societal norms.

I feel gay people/couples should be afforded the exact same rights as the rest of us. It only makes sense.

Some have said that the only time you hear about changing gay rights and abortion laws is during the campaign... I agree. I also agree that applies to MOST talking points from BOTH sides so people who get all wound up about tax cuts etc. are deluded. Gay rights will continue to be recognized and the right to choose will as well. No matter who is President.

On a side note: I have been labeled a conservative by many on these boards despite my assurance that I'm non-partisan and my pro-choice stance. Maybe this post will help... surely no "right-wing", "conservative", "radical Republican" would ever support gay rights. Right? "

cd wrote on Oct 20, 2008 1:30 PM:

" http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=64

Barack Obamas review of William Ayers' book
Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 7:26 pm

On December 21, 1997, Barack Obama wrote a short review of William Ayers book A Kind and Just Parent: The Children of Juvenile Court, which had recently been published by Beacon Press. Heres a photo of how the review appeared in the Chicago Tribune:

Obamas review of Ayers book says, A searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair.

- - -
Just a few weeks before this review was published in the Chicago Tribune, Obama and Ayers appeared together on a panel about juvenile justice organized by Michelle Obama on November 20, 1997:

Children who kill are called super predators, people with no conscience, feral pre-social beings and adults.
- - -
Ayers will be joined by Sen. Barack Obama, Senior Lecturer in the Law School, who is working to combat legislation that would put more juvenile offenders into the adult system; Randolph Stone, Director of the Mandel Legal Aid Clinic; Alex Correa, a reformed juvenile offender who spent seven years in Cook County Temporary Detention Center; Frank Tobin, a former priest and teacher at the Detention Center who helped Correa; and Willy Baldwin, who grew up in public housing and is currently a teacher at the Detention Center.

I find it very hard no, make that impossible to believe that Barack Obama had no idea who William Ayers really was, or that he had a past as a notorious domestic terrorist (as Obamas campaign has claimed) while serving on panels with Ayers and simultaneously praising Ayers book in a major newspaper.

--------------------------------------- "

Becky wrote on Oct 20, 2008 3:06 PM:

" cd: post #1, I agree. post #2: Ayers was a radical FORTY YEARS AGO!!! Get over it. He is now being honored for his work with troubled children. Stop beating a dead horse. "

father bob wrote on Oct 20, 2008 4:07 PM:

" cd wrote on Oct 20, 2008 1:30 PM:
" http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=64

Barack Obamas review of William Ayers' book""""

seems like you guys just can't let go of ayers...your candidate says he's not interested in a "washed up old terrorist" but he, and you keep talking it up about him, and not the economic issues or the war or world affairs...

pure comedy.....the last gasping breath before you go down for the third time? "

dj1956 wrote on Oct 20, 2008 5:51 PM:

" To People are grasping: After reading your letter, I am hard pressed to believe anyone on these blogs would consider you a conservative. Also, I am always puzzled by what liberals call..."the right to choose" when refering to killing babies. Is that the right to choose murder?
Becky said "that was 40 years ago, get over it." when referring to a man who hated his country enough to try to kill people in the process of blowing up buildings! Get over what? He is still stomping on the American flag and has stated he wishes he had done more back in the day..... Grow up Becky. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 20, 2008 7:36 PM:

" DJ1956 do you honestly think that NO ONE can ever pay for their crimes and redeem his/her self?If that is what you think why do we have prisons, why not just kill ALL convicted felons and be done with it? Do you think that the problem with Universal Health Care is that it would tell you what Doctor you can see and what medical procedures you can get? A woman's right to choose is ONLY about a woman's right to decide what happens to her own body and is no one elses business but her Doctors. Any interference by outsiders is IMMORAL. Quite simple really. "

medic57 wrote on Oct 20, 2008 8:40 PM:

" If someone wants to be Gay, I could care less, however, keep it to your selves. When George Takei and his "partner" got married in California, there were pictures on TV and the Internet, why? I didn't see them running any pictures on any Heterosexual marriages that day, why was that?

A woman's right to choose is ONLY about a woman's right to decide what happens to her own body

Does that include an abortion at 8 1/2 months because the woman decides she doesn't want to have the baby? "

ed miller wrote on Oct 20, 2008 9:10 PM:

" Susan,

Ayers avoided prison because the case was thrown out for illegal survelance so he never paid for his crimes. "

red,white,blue wrote on Oct 21, 2008 12:59 AM:

" Ayers case was thrown out on a technicality/illegal procedure or some such foolishness. That and his daddy's money got him off. Pretty ironic when you think about it.

People are grasping: I think you were being sarcastic but I actually do know gay Republicans/conservatives. Imagine that?! "

The Question wrote on Oct 21, 2008 6:54 AM:

" If someone wants to be Gay, I could care less, however, keep it to your selves.
---
Meds, just who the devil are you to give people orders about how to live their lives? You don't even know how to spell the word "yourselves." The staggering, astounding arrogance of you right-wingers amazes me. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:17 AM:

" He paid for and continues to pay for his crimes because folks like you Mr. Miller are unable to allow a person to change their lives/turn over a new leaf. People like you were unable to satisfy their thirst for vengence, and feel cheated AND that is a terrible waste of your life. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:20 AM:

" Polling Data

Poll Date Sample MoE Obama (D) McCain (R) Spread

RCP Average 10/13 - 10/20 -- -- 49.8 43.8 Obama +6.0

Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby 10/18 - 10/20 1211 LV 2.9 50 42 Obama +8

CNN/Opinion Research 10/17 - 10/19 764 LV 3.5 51 46 Obama +5

Rasmussen Reports 10/17 - 10/19 3000 LV 2.0 50 46 Obama +4

Hotline/FD 10/17 - 10/19 789 LV 3.5 47 42 Obama +5

Gallup (Traditional)* 10/17 - 10/19 2340 LV 2.0 50 45 Obama +5

Gallup (Expanded)* 10/17 - 10/19 2271 LV 2.0 52 43 Obama +9

ABC News/Wash Post 10/16 - 10/19 1336 LV 2.5 53 44 Obama +9

IBD/TIPP 10/15 - 10/19 1086 LV 3.0 47 41 Obama +6

GWU/Battleground 10/13 - 10/19 1000 LV 3.5 49 45 Obama +4 "

eiualum97 wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:55 AM:

" medic57 I fyou could "care less" aboout gay people, then why should they "keep it to themselves ?" This is not a rhetorical question, I would like to hear your answer on this. Also, there are entire sections in newspapers devoted to heterosexual wedding pictures ! If another celebrity got married the same day as George Takei, I am quite sure that picture would have been published as well. As far as a woman's right to chose, no one is talking about aborting a 8.5 month long pregnancy. the thing I find most amusing about all this is that most staunch Right to Lifers are also PRO death penalty. Explain that. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 21, 2008 10:28 AM:

" So Susan,

I guess if someone molested your child and got off on a technicality, never felt remorse, and moved in next door to you, that would be ok with you. "

injustice85 wrote on Oct 21, 2008 10:39 AM:

" I never read the original letter by Cal Thomas but it sounds over the top, he has right like us to write his opinion but he also has the edge being a column writer, he shouldn't abuse that power by being overly opinionated "

XTownie wrote on Oct 21, 2008 11:34 AM:

" Publishing a column from Cal Thomas is not "free speech". It is a column that is paid for. Yes, it's his opinion...which he gets paid to have in print giving it a much larger platform than just a letter to the editor.

It's disgusting that JG-TC would pay for and publish a Thomas column. "Shutting him down" by discontinuing his column would not suppress his right to free speech at all! Mr. Thomas can submit a letter to the editor like any one else.

dj - If you believe only Liberals are for the "right to choose", you're wrong. Right to choose isn't about "killing babies" or "killing the unborn". It's about keeping the government out of a personal decision. Once you've turned that over the government to say you can't, the government can change it's mind to say you must. Just like China. "

father bob wrote on Oct 21, 2008 11:56 AM:

" eiualum97 wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:55 AM:
" medic57 I fyou could "care less" aboout gay people, then why should they "keep it to themselves ?" This is not a rhetorical question, I would like to hear your answer on this.""""

studies show that people who are MOST "offended" by the gay and lesbian communities have deep concerns about, and are uncomfortable with their own sexuality. they have also found these individuals to have an unexplained "curiosity" about gay/lesbian relationships. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 21, 2008 2:50 PM:

" Honestly Mr. Miller we have been through this before. If a person makes a sincere effort to change his/her ways shouldn't we give them the chance to put the past behind them. Child molestors are a different story, it is very difficult for them to quit, and taking precautions to keep temptation out of their way is reasonable, and as good for them as for society.BUT does that mean that should forever be ostracized, denied jobs, be forced to walk around with a Scarlet Letters CM on their chest? Ayers has changed his ways, he has led an honorable life, so get over it. Quit being so self righteous, Jesus wouldn't approve. "

even steven wrote on Oct 21, 2008 3:48 PM:

" Contrary to what Shumphreys claims about Ayers changing his ways and leading an honorable life, Ayers has been working with Venezuela's Chavez on education "reforms" there. His reforms there are similar to his efforts here in the US... namely, to replace education with indoctrination. Ayers is still a dangerous and un-American terrorist who should be rotting in prison as I type this. There is no apologizing for him, because he's never apologized himself. He's proud of what he did, should be removed from his position at UIC, as he has no business whatsoever meddling with the education of American children. It would be poetic justice of someone bombed his mansion. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 4:57 PM:

" It would be poetic justice of someone bombed his mansion. "

Boy, you right wingers are something else. Is this how the rest of you feel? I'm betting no right winger condemns this comment, by uneven steven. I'll be patiently waiting for the condemnation for this hateful comment.

I have a hunch if old uneven steven was at a Palin rally he would be one of those yelling hateful things too. "

eiualum97 wrote on Oct 21, 2008 5:09 PM:

" Well said father bob. Still waiting for your answer medic !!! "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 6:47 PM:

" This is not a joke. Sara Palin actually told a group of school kids today that the VP is in charge of the Senate, and can make a lot of good changes.

Does any Palin supporter care to support this crazy claim?

This uninformed moron is dangerous. "

Mike P wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:06 PM:

" Several studies point to rage over sexual orienation issues, being more of a level of venting internal conflicts on the matter.

Basicly they are saying if you watched broke back mountain, and got mad at the I can't quit you moments, It was just expression of strain on the hinges and door latch, of individual closet tendencies that were emerging as outrage for lack of understanding them.

Brain scans show homophobes show the same or more arousal at specific stimuli, than verified members of alternative lifesyles do. Scans can differenciate between arousal and rage, but many people evidently can't. This type of personality trait is sometimes referred to as a latent one. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:30 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 6:47 PM:

" This uninformed moron is dangerous."

Don't be so hard on yourself Harry. The VP is the "President" of the Senate per the Constitution. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:09 PM:

" Looks like a little civics lesson is called for for our friend ed miller. The only involvement with the Senate for the VP is to vote if there if there is a tie. That's it, ed, plain and simple. The title is strictly ceremonial. Your gal Palin, seems to think there is more to it, and apparently you do too. Most people learn the VP's duties in the 7th grade, and apparently my comments regarding Palin went over your head, sorry. I'll try to dummy it down for you in the future, ed. Try to keep up, OK? "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:14 PM:

" As of today, 55 percent of America thinks Palin is unqualified for the position of VP. If her negative numbers go any higher, she will be in the same league as George Bush. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:20 PM:

" Under the original code of Senate rules, the presiding officer exercised great power over the conduct of the body's proceedings. Rule XVI provided that "every question of order shall be decided by the President [of the Senate], without debate; but if there be a doubt in his mind, he may call for a sense of the Senate." Thus, contrary to later practice, the presiding officer was the sole judge of proper procedure and his rulings could not be turned aside by the full Senate without his assent.

The first two vice presidents, Adams and Jefferson, did much to shape the nature of the office, setting precedents that were followed by others. During most of the nineteenth century, the degree of influence and the role played within the Senate depended chiefly on the personality and inclinations of the individual involved. Some had great parliamentary skill and presided well, while others found the task boring, were incapable of maintaining order, or chose to spend most of their time away from Washington, leaving the duty to a president pro tempore. Some made an effort to preside fairly, while others used their position to promote the political agenda of the administration.

It is not strictly ceremonial. The no-vote thing was to appease some who would not sign for fear it violated separation of powers. The VP is in fact the President of the Senate and technically, in charge. "

Mike P wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:21 PM:

" Soon after Palin was tapped as running mate, she had no clue what the vice president did. More recently she was impressed with the increased capability the constitution gives the office.

The vice president is president of the senate, and can vote to break ties. The office may be assigned additional duties by the president but, as the Constitution assigns no executive powers to the vice president, in performing such duties he or she acts only as an agent of the president.

This seems contradictory to the powers Cheyney has reportedly placed on his office. But if he did it with GW's encouragement and blessing, he is within his limits it seems. Executive priviledge seems to cloud the waters that would clarify his powers and appointed duties directed from the president.

Hopefully future administrations will more clearly define limits of both positions, and reform to reduce chance of there being a repeat performance, without requiring an act of congress to allow such misuse of elected office powers. "

Mike P wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:37 PM:

" The VP also presides over and certifies the official vote count of the US electoral college.

Something to keep in mind, with the upcomming election cycle rapidly approaching the end. I am not sure Cheyney can be trusted to effectively preside over any important decisions. "

doulos wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:43 PM:

" Keith Wilson is an intelligent man and a Professor of Psychology at EIU with a Ph.D. from Georgia State University. I am surprised that he is so deeply disturbed by a Cal Thomas commentary. If any of the writers on this thread have not read the Cal Thomas commentary Dr. Wilson finds so disturbing please go to www.calthomas.com and read the October 13th column "The End of We the People". Bob Beckel, a respected liberal political strategist and the former head of the Democratic National Committee is a good friend of Cal Thomas. Cal is a respected conservative commentator. Beckel and Thomas have co-authored a book titled "Common Ground How to Stop the Partisan War that is Destroying America". This thread is proof of the need for all of us to read this book and let it's message begin to inform our words and behavior. If Bob Beckel can find common ground with Cal Thomas then Keith Wilson can also. Beckel and Thomas are intelligent men who like each other and respect each other. They have found a way to have rational discussions about volatile topics. The commentary Cal Thomas wrote did not spew hate and Cal Thomas is no agent of hate. I agree with Bob Beckel and believe Cal Thomas is a good man expressing his opinion. "

Mike P wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:47 PM:

" The VP also presides over and certifies the official vote count of the US electoral college.

Something to keep in mind, with the current election cycle rapidly approaching the end. I am not sure Cheyney can be trusted to effectively preside over any important decisions. We will see if tricky dicky has any antics left to pull over on us, I guess. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 21, 2008 9:40 PM:

" Good Post Doulos,

I frequently read Cal and Bob in the USA Today. It would be nice if people could have civil discussions on here without all of the name calling that is supposed to be banned. I hate to think how many people have been turned off from posting here, by the venomous diatrides and bullying on this forum on all sides. "

Early Bird wrote on Oct 22, 2008 5:40 AM:

" CNN.com

Palin's kids travel on Alaska's dime
Gov. Sarah Palin charged the state for her children to travel with her, including to events where they were not invited, and later amended expense reports to specify that they were on official business.
........................

As one pundit said: another stink bomb from the McCain camp.

Now there's a story that won't show up on Fox for a while. After Roger Ailes has a little time to figure out how he wants his fair and balanced folks to spin it, it may get covered, but unless it grows legs, forget about hearing about it from Fox.

It looks like our friend Sara is just a typical politician when it comes to using the tax payers money, doesn't it?

Or could this be one of those core beliefs that one letter writer praised her for a while back?

When the history of this years election is written, I'm starting to get a pretty good idea of what they will say caused McCain's defeat, and that is his selection of this scheming opportunist as his VP choice. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 22, 2008 7:44 AM:

" But Wait Until You See the Solid Gold Parka
October 21, 2008 8:25 PM

Politico's Jeanne Cummings is reporting that the Republican National Committee "appears to have spent more than $150,000 to clothe and accessorize vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin and her family since her surprise pick by John McCain in late August. According to financial disclosure records, the accessorizing began in early September and included bills from Saks Fifth Avenue in St. Louis and New York for a combined $49,425.74. The records also document a couple of big-time shopping trips to Neiman Marcus in Minneapolis, including one $75,062.63 spree in early September."

The McCain-Palin campaign didn't comment, but if campaign officials change their minds we shall be happy to update.

-- jpt

------------------------------

What no mention of the electrolysis costs? As one blogger noted, she probably needed all of those Neiman Marcus outfits to get all maverickie.

And it seems the Repugs also shelled out big bucks to outfit the first dud too.

I have to say that Sara is getting the most out of her 15 minutes.

Next stop: The Jerry Springer show. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 22, 2008 7:54 AM:

" I hate to tell you this Even Steven but our education system is Indoctrination and has been since it started and has gotten worse with "NO Child Left Behind" where teachers have to spend more time "teaching" students to pass tests than "teaching" students how to think, about geography and social studies. Isn't it terrible that Ayers is willing to help the people of Venezuela with their education system? What an awful man. "

Illinoisbound wrote on Oct 22, 2008 8:32 AM:

" Give me liberty...give me Fox... McCain/Palin and NOBAMA!!!!! Yep...there are people like us out here. "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2008 10:59 AM:

" Did Levi get some Saks Bling too? "

sapient wrote on Oct 22, 2008 12:26 PM:

" William Ayers helping people with their educational system? What a scary thought. That is akin to Dr. Kavorkian giving medical advice to hospital patients. If Ayers' help is positive I guess that would make his terrorist activities OK? Like Charles Manson is a good guy because he had a pet kitty once and was nice to it. Your reasoning is so skewed it is hard to respond to. "

sapient wrote on Oct 22, 2008 12:30 PM:

" How do we know that Wm. Ayers turned his life around? The last I heard he made some statement to the effect that he is not sorry for his bombings and wish that he could do more. And Susan, how can you of all people tell us what Jesus would or would not approve of. "

VTucker wrote on Oct 22, 2008 12:31 PM:

" Illinoisbound, why do you favor the McCain/Palin ticket? I am asking this question with all sincerity. From what you've posted in the past, you sound like an ordinary, average citizen. It is the ordinary, average citizens who have suffered under the current administration. To use the "redistribution of wealth" phrase, since the year 2000 wealth has been redistributed away from the middle and lower classes to the upper class. In what ways do you expect Republican economic and social policy to be of benefit to you? "

even steven wrote on Oct 22, 2008 1:08 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 4:57 PM:

" It would be poetic justice of someone bombed his mansion. "

Boy, you right wingers are something else. Is this how the rest of you feel? I'm betting no right winger condemns this comment, by uneven steven. I'll be patiently waiting for the condemnation for this hateful comment.

I have a hunch if old uneven steven was at a Palin rally he would be one of those yelling hateful things too. "

poetic justice
n. The rewarding of virtue and the punishment of vice, often in an especially appropriate or ironic manner.

Perhaps I should have used the word "ironic", since you obviously have a limited vocabulary and didn't know the definition of "poetic justice".

There's no need to thank me. I'm always happy help out folks like you with limited intelligence and inferior educations. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 22, 2008 1:34 PM:

" Sapient it is easy for me to tell what Jesus would think, I am in tune with "the man". Now about your other comments. Well I will pass, sappy comments need to comment. "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2008 2:17 PM:

" sapient wrote on Oct 22, 2008 12:26 PM:
" William Ayers helping people with their educational system?""""

another moron weighs in. "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2008 2:19 PM:

" sapient wrote on Oct 22, 2008 12:30 PM:
" How do we know that Wm. Ayers turned his life around? The last I heard he made some statement to the effect that he is not sorry for his bombings and wish that he could do more. And Susan, how can you of all people tell us what Jesus would or would not approve of. """"

and how can you say ayers hasn't turned his life around? "

father bob wrote on Oct 22, 2008 3:56 PM:

" sapient....can you give us a little background info on Oleg Deripaska and his connection to mccain, george bush and the airbus contracts? oh....and can you tell us what the $500,000 donation to mccain was for????...

thanks... "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 22, 2008 6:11 PM:

" Perhaps I should have used the word "ironic", since you obviously have a limited vocabulary and didn't know the definition of "poetic justice".
-----------------------

Typical right winger, gets caught and tries to weasel out of it. Uneven steven questioning some one's intelligence, vocabulary or education is on a par with Karl Rove bemoaning dirty politics from the left. Absolutely hilarious. Karl's making an a$$ out of himself is on YouTube, check it out.

If you need a little help getting to YouTube, let me know stevie. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 22, 2008 6:24 PM:

" Absolute best right wing quote of the day: Sara Palin is on an intellectual level with Margaret Thatcher. I really heard this on the radio today. "

The Question wrote on Oct 22, 2008 6:26 PM:

" Geezer/Dingbat 2008 "

sapient wrote on Oct 22, 2008 7:40 PM:

" FB: Will you explain to me the connection between Grting Newjuxton and Obama? You make up so much fertilizer it should be banned by the greenies. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 22, 2008 8:14 PM:

" When it comes to lining your own pocket, Sara Palin brings Spiro Agnew to mind. She seems to excel at money grubbing. "

cd wrote on Oct 22, 2008 8:32 PM:

" Bill Ayers 9/11 Piece: We Didnt Do Enough
From a worshipful New York Times:

No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen
By DINITIA SMITH
Published: September 11, 2001

I dont regret setting bombs, Bill Ayers said. I feel we didnt do enough. Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970s as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago. The long curly locks in his Wanted poster are shorn, though he wears earrings. He still has tattooed on his neck the rainbow-and-lightning Weathermen logo that appeared on letters taking responsibility for bombings. And he still has the ebullient, ingratiating manner, the apparently intense interest in other people, that made him a charismatic figure in the radical student movement.
--------------------
Explain the new math that gets 40 years from 2001 to 2008.
If he says he/they should have done more, then his 1970s activities are good as 2001. "

Locke wrote on Oct 22, 2008 8:41 PM:

" dj1956 wrote: "Also, I am always puzzled by what liberals call..."the right to choose" when refering to killing babies. Is that the right to choose murder?"

Here is the problem with the abortion issue.

1). Babies exist outside the womb. Therefore, abortion is not "killing babies."

2). Abortion is not "murder." Murder is an illegal killing. Executing a criminal, shooting an armed enemy, and killing someone in self-defense are not considered murder.

Even if we do consider life at conception, it is still not murder -- only a sanctioned form of killing. In Hebrew, Exodus is translated to "Thou shalt not murder." And finally, the Bible allows legal forms of killing -- or even genocide as in Samuel. In fact the Bible sactions abortions by priests, as in Numbers. Moreover, the Bible doesn't even count the unborn in the census, and therefor they aren't considered to be people with full rights -- as found in Exodus.

Just wanted to say that your own religion doesn't support what you are told to think. "

Mike P wrote on Oct 22, 2008 9:19 PM:

" Weather underground was a militant anti war group, in the early seventies. They hoped to disrupt capitalism,and inspire communism.

Ayers statement is not clear what he hoped they could have donemore in.

Ayers is more of a non issue than Obamas preacher was. There is no substance linking Obama to eithers ideology, present or past.

If Ayers were in prison for life, like he possibly should have been, this would be a complete non issue. Ayers is dispicable, and I defend his actions in no possible way. He is a free citizen, and Obama crossed his path, slightly, long after he was active in his various misdeeds.

Rezco is a political leach. He sought involvement in many politicians, on many levels, in any party, to seek personal gain, and political influence. No impropriety on Obamas part, has been unearthed, in his dealing with a prominent politicly connected business man.

Prosecuting people for their casual and less aquaintences, is something few people could be completly free from. Raising the initial questions is more than prudent in discovering the truth. Running with inuendo and baseless acusations, for extended periods of time, is just petty grasping at straws to try to distract from the truth. If new information, sheds different versions of determined fact, by all means whip the nag to the finish line. There is nothing there. Furthering divisions over nothing, is what desperate campaigns sink to.

In two weeks we have to suport the nominee, and Cheyney presides over the certification of the electoral college vote. We might see Nominee Liberman, or some scenario of another four yers of Bush Cheyney, in that scenario. There are bigger issues than washed up domestic terrorists, and beligerant preachers.

Ayers should be questioned and places he is associated with, outed for their associations. Former terrorists on boards, and faculty, reflects on the institutions, not mild aquaintences. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 22, 2008 9:32 PM:

" I someone kills an unborn child they can be charged with murder. A women can choose to kill her unborn child legally, but not one that is already born. Sounds like a double standard to me. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 23, 2008 12:56 AM:

" Mike P wrote on Oct 22, 2008 9:19 PM:
"Ayers is more of a non issue than Obamas preacher was. There is no substance linking Obama to eithers ideology, present or past."

He claims Ayers in only an "acquaintance" and he knew nothing of his past. I call B.S. Ayers hosted his "coming out" party at his home. If I am a self-proclaimed anti-government anarchist/terrorist, I would only have such parties for someone who shared my views. He served with Ayers and has to know his radical views. He still believes them. It's not like he has reformed. Doesn't the wolf in sheep's clothing analogy seem to fit here? Likewise, he expects us to believe he attended services at Rev. Wright's church for 20 yrs and was a close personal friend yet he never heard his radical, racist rants prior to the campaign? Give me a break! If the media weren't so enamored with this phony, they would be tearing him to shreds. Imagine if McCain was chummy with Tim McVey, Ted Kaczinski (sp?), or David Duke. The media would have destroyed him so bad he wouldn't have made it out of the primaries. Yes, there are bigger issues than these guys, but the fact remains that Obama will not admit he did anything wrong. If I want to be president, I am not going to hang out with a guy who wanted to blow up federal buildings or with a guy who hates people for their skin color. If he would have just said that those guys were idiots and he chalked it up to youthful indiscretion, I would let it go. However, he won't even admit he was wrong about the surge. He claimed it would make things worse and it didn't. It was practically the only meaningful piece of foreign policy legislation that he actually voted yes or no on and he was wrong. I'm sorry, Obama has been all about getting himself into the White House ever since he came on to the scene and I think he will do anything to make that happen.

Do you even realize if Obama is elected President, it would probably be the longest full-time government job he has ever had? Doesn't that scare you? "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 23, 2008 7:15 AM:

" Poor old John McCain. First he picks a political novice, who turns out to be an amoral, vindictive, scheming money grubber, as his VP choice, and then he tries to base his campaign on the story of a tax dodging union scab. These two things alone are enough to turn most people off to the idea of actually having him in the White House. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 23, 2008 7:32 AM:

" Doesn't that scare you? "

----------------------

I'll tell you what scares me, eddie, having Sara Pain a heartbeat away from the presidency! Looking at the poll numbers of late, apparently, with the exception of Fox news of course, I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

And by the way ed, did you see where a spokesman for the McCain camp said they plan to give that 150 grand wardrobe for Sara to charity? After watching how old Sara sticks her personal bills off onto the tax payers of Alaska, I would say good luck to them in getting their hands on those Nieman Marcus and Fredericks of Hollywood outfits. Look for Sara to show up on the Jerry Springer show wearing one of those red leather outfits soon. Remember, eddie, you heard it here first.... "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 7:55 AM:

" Mr. Miller we have been over your point before about the inconsistency between legality of abortion and illegality of harming a pregnant woman and her unborn child. That law was passed by Anti Abortion Folks who thought it was a back door way to get abortions banned. It didn't work so get over it. Blame the Right to Lifers for their inconsistancy, since they are in many ways inconsistant--supporting death penalty, think it is okay to murder abortion providers and bomb abortion/family planning clinics, object to government interference in their personal health care decisions but want to inforce their "morality" on the health care decisions of women. Yes there are lots of inconsistencies from the anti Abortion folks. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 8:00 AM:

" Mr. Miller get over Ayers. Obama did nothing wrong so there is nothing for him to admit to. I serve with many Christians on Boards and as you know I am not a Christian. Some of those folks are quite fundamental in their thinking and you know what I think of fundamentalists. Such an association in no way indicates my support for their beliefs. It indicates that I can tell when and where to draw the line. Obama by the way is in the same position. That is what Jesus tried to teach, you should listen to his message. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:20 AM:

" He did no wrong only because it was Obama, and Obama can do no wrong.

If the Pope had his "coming out" party at Larry Flynt's house that would show poor judgment on his part and make you wonder if you really knew the guy or not.

Obama knew he was a terrorist. When you are running for office, you make it your business to know where everybody stands. Obama just knew he could help him get elected and that is all that matters to Obama. "

father bob wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:29 AM:

" sapient wrote on Oct 22, 2008 7:40 PM:
" FB: Will you explain to me the connection between Grting Newjuxton and Obama? You make up so much fertilizer it should be banned by the greenies. """"

sorry dude....you started it, now we're waiting for your explaination...or do you wish to sidestep some more?? "

even steven wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:44 AM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Oct 22, 2008 6:11 PM:

Typical right winger, gets caught and tries to weasel out of it. Uneven steven questioning some one's intelligence, vocabulary or education is on a par with Karl Rove bemoaning dirty politics from the left. Absolutely hilarious. Karl's making an a$$ out of himself is on YouTube, check it out.

If you need a little help getting to YouTube, let me know stevie. "

Hmmm... name-calling, an inability to comprehend simple words and phrases, the parroting of talking points. I understand now. You're eleven years old. When you grow up and finish your education, you'll be better prepared to discuss things with adults. I admire your efforts, though. Be patient, little man... you're eventually get there, even if you don't quite have as much gray matter as some of your peers. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:44 AM:

" Actually Mr. Miller the fact that Obama has done other things with his life, held other jobs, and NOT been a government worker his whole career is to his advantage. We need someone who has more experience, is more in touch with the real world than McCain is. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:46 AM:

" Oops I should have sad has "broader, more varied experience" instead of just more experience. You will try to argue that McCain has more experience since he has been around longer. It is they variety of experience that counts. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on Oct 23, 2008 11:48 AM:

" The bible is very clear on Homosexuality being a sin. All you have to do is read Romans chapter 1 and that is in the New Testament. Also the woman's right to choose would be okay if the right to choose had to do with her own body. It of course does not but it also includes someone else's body. So the baby suffers death while the mother has her right to choose. If we would just call abortion what it is then there would be no argument. It is murder! Women don't want to consider it murder of course because they have the law that says that it is not. How convenient. It all goes back to whether you believe the Bible is the Word of God or not? When you believe that it is then there is no argument no matter what your government has to say on the matter. In the words of the apostles "we must obey God rather than man." "

The Question wrote on Oct 23, 2008 1:56 PM:

" The Bible is also very clear that eating shellfish is an abomination, Shallow Thoughts. Why don't you go picket Red Lobster? "

ed miller wrote on Oct 23, 2008 2:07 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:46 AM:
" ...It is they variety of experience that counts. "

Nice attempt to make something out of nothing. I guess McCain is unqualified as he has never been a "community organizer". Or now maybe we could argue that Gov Palin is more qualified than Sen. Biden, since she has been a mayor and a Governor and he has only been a senator. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 23, 2008 2:20 PM:

" My goodness, uneven, you seem to be obsessed with intelligence, education, an now size, as I see your Napoleon complex is now coming into play too. Could most of this be a classic case of transference on your part. Normally people who are well balanced and secure in themselves don't feel a need to make such outrageous claims against their fellow posters. Your last few messages spoke volumes about what are obviously some serious anxiety issues, or at the very least some personality disorders on your part.

Professional help is available, that is unless you are a Republican, and if that's the case you have my sincerest sympathy. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 23, 2008 2:42 PM:

" More about the man i am supposed to forget about....

I asked, "well what is going to happen to those people we can't reeducate, that are diehard capitalists?" and the reply was that they'd have to be eliminated.

And when I pursued this further, they estimated they would have to eliminate 25 million people in these reeducation centers.

And when I say "eliminate," I mean "kill."

Twenty-five million people.

I want you to imagine sitting in a room with 25 people, most of which have graduate degrees, from Columbia and other well-known educational centers, and hear them figuring out the logistics for the elimination of 25 million people.

And they were dead serious.

This was the testimony of FBI informant Larry Grathwohl in the 1982 documentary, "No Place to Hide".

The 25 people plotting the extermination of the 25 million Americans who would bitterly cling to the American way of life?

The Weather Underground, led by Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn.

Oh, but he was only an "acquaintance"...

- Ayers and Obama worked together for years on a school reform program called the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.
- Ayers and Obama also served together on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a separate charity organization.
- Obama had his political coming-out party in William Ayers' home.
- Ayers mentions Obama by name in a book he wrote in 1997, and mentions that the two are very close neighbors.
- Obama gave a short glowing review of that same Ayers book for the Chicago Tribune.
- Obama and Ayers were both presenters together on a panel about juvenile justice (organized by Michelle Obama).
- Both Obama and Ayers were close friends with the same person, Rashid Kalidi.
There are also several unverified rumors swirling around that have not been documented: That Ayers may have helped to write part (or all) of Obama's autobiography; that Obama and Ayers shared an office space together for three years, on the same floor of the same building in Chicago; and that Ayers and Obama may have known each other as far back as 1981.

Try to find a copy of the book "Prairie Fire", the communist manifesto authored by Ayers and Dohrn as they bombed their way across America.

You'll be stunned at the depth of the seething hatred of the United States and our way of life contained in these pages, and wonder how the protg of these traitors ever became the Democratic nominee for President of the nation they hate. "

father bob wrote on Oct 23, 2008 3:52 PM:

" ed miller wrote on Oct 23, 2008 2:42 PM:
" More about the man i am supposed to forget about....""""

if you believe all that bunk, you are a complete and total imbecile.

i'll bet your basement is full of canned goods, face masks, ammo, guns and cash waiting of the muslims to invade and start eating our babies from their bayonets.

what a whacko freak... "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 4:47 PM:

" Actually Deep Thoughts there are two things wrong with Romans. The Bible doesn't say one way or another whether homosexuality is wrong. Romans One states "God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men." What is natural for the heterosexual is not natural for the homosexual. This passage is about exchanging natural for unnatural. Also note it says that "God gave them up". Now what does that funny set of words mean? It doesn't mean condemned or found unlawful or sinful or an abomination. It sounds to me that when God gives up on a person, throws his hands up in disgust and says I quit, this is what happens. AND just what was it that God was angry with the people for doing? It wasn't for their sexual behavior. It was....... (drum roll please) " desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions." A message I think you should listen to, otherwise God just might give up on you. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 23, 2008 4:52 PM:

" Get over it Mr. Miller. The Weatherman Underground has disappeared, it can no longer hurt you. The youth that participated are now old and settled, with children and mortgages and credit card debt. Times have changed too bad you haven't been able to keep up. To paraphrase your poster boy, "Obama is not Ayers or a member of any subversive organizations." "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 23, 2008 4:56 PM:

" It used to be the commies that got people like our paranoid friend ed all worked up, fb. They've been trying to turn every Democrat that comes down the pike into a socialist or a communist for years now. It looks like the people are finally starting to wake up to that, at least the polls are looking that way. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 23, 2008 5:02 PM:

" Sara Palin has become a mere pawn for the late night talk show hosts. Along with George Bush and Dick Cheney, Sara and Joe (the scab) plumber will soon be just a bad memory. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 23, 2008 8:00 PM:

" Regarding the election, after it's over, I think all the school children should ding Ding Dong the Witch is Dead. And for our dullard friend, steven, that would be done metaphorically. "

Mike P wrote on Oct 23, 2008 10:31 PM:

" Scuttle butt is there is talk of Palin running in 2012, for the top slot. LOL

Her differing with McCain on the trail is so she can distance herself post loss, and build on the momentum she brought to the ticket, to get the next top nomination from the GOP.

Her and Hot Rod B are of the same cloth. Perhaps they can run to reform washington together, just like they have been so successful at in their current full time jobs. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 24, 2008 7:17 AM:

" I read where she is being courted by Roger Ailes at Fixed news. She would fit right in with that bunch. They always seem to find a place on their network for failed and disgraced Republicans like Palin. Thanks to those who contributed to the GOP, she already has the wardrobe for a TV job.

I read this AM that the RNC also paid for outfitting all of Sara's brood with designer duds including her daughters impregnating boyfriend. I wonder how old Martha feels about that?

At least the only ones getting stuck with her bills are her fellow Republicans, unlike how she sticks the entire state of Alaska for her personal bills, such as the travel costs for her entire tribe, for non-government affairs. I have to wonder if she is conferring with Dick Cheney on some of these issues, as he seems to be the expert on milking the federal government for personal gain. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on Oct 24, 2008 10:53 AM:

" What an interesting comment by you Susan who proclaims to not be a Christian but you've got the market on Biblical explanation. The bottom line in Romans Chapter 1 is as clear as the nose on my face. It's when people who want to make excuses for their sin then they come up with responses like yours. The problem that you face Susan is coming to grips with the fact that yes God is love but also there are rules that you must follow in order to experience Heaven. You cannot live your life any old way you want and then expect God to put his approval on it. Neither can You decide what God puts his approval on. When you use the words give over and define it like you do then you are putting your own definition to it. God is giving them over to satan because they chose to serve satan just like the man who was having sexual relations in Corinth with his mother. The word Reprobate means castaway or rejected. When God casts you away then it is open season for satan to do what he wants to do with your life. The homosexual lifestyle is the reason why we have AIDS and have lost millions of lives to this horrible disease. If homosexuality was normal and people were born that way the result would not be death for just living normal lives. The bible is clear that this type of lifestyle is an abomination unto God. As far as Questions comment, please understand the bible before making ignorant statements. We are New Testament believers now and we do not or should not be following the Old Covenant rules and regulations. The purpose of the Cross is so that we could be set free from the old way of life and walk in newness of life through the blood of Jesus Christ that he shed on the Cross for our sins. "

124 wrote on Oct 24, 2008 12:19 PM:

" It seems as if few of the posters have actually read Keith Wilson's letter.

Mr. Thomas discussed homosexual behavior. Homosexual behavior makes many people very, very disturbed. Then he says these people who are deeply disturbing you want to destroy all remnants of biblical values. Mr. Wilson says that encourages hate. He then takes Mr. Thomas and the editorial board to task.

Anybody want to talk about that? "

sapient wrote on Oct 24, 2008 1:28 PM:

" TQ: Rom. 1:22
'Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools'

Your quoting the Bible out of context only exposes your bigotry and ignorance. "

sapient wrote on Oct 24, 2008 1:33 PM:

" Good post, Deep Thoughts. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2008 2:08 PM:

" DeepThoughts your thoughts are anything but deep. First of all the explanation of Romans isn't from me it is from Westar Institute an organization that is concerned about correcting mis-readings of Biblical passages. There reading is literal which is how you generally prefer to read the Bible. OR are you now reading literally only those parts that fit your bias and hate and "interpreting" those parts that don't agree with you in some other fashion? I used the direct quotes from the Bible ao intelligent folks can decide for themselves or check their Bibles to check for the accuracy of my words. Second all folks are saved, if Grace is a TRUE concept. No way around it, that means homosexuals, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus and even me and though I hate to admit it, even you. Third Aides didn't result from homosexuality. It came from people in Africa living in close contact with animals and consuming infected animals enabling the disease common in monkeys to mutate (evolve) into a disease that affects humans. The Bible doesn't say anthing about homosexuality being sinful or not. There is however alot in the Bible about the sin of judging others. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2008 2:12 PM:

" Oh and about your reasoning "if heterosexuality was normal than those folks wouldn't suffer from such horrible diseases as syphllis and gonorhea, genital herpes, cervical cancer, prostrate cancer". Ever heard of those horrible diseases. Some were the scourge of mankind before modern antibiotics. Disease isn't punishment for sin. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2008 2:15 PM:

" Sapient get a dictionary before you use such big words. A bigot is an intolerant, prejudiced person. You and Deep Thoughts are bigots. Now if you would like to call me a heretic that would be appropriate and I would be honored. "

The Question wrote on Oct 24, 2008 2:52 PM:

" I know the Bible is false because the only evidence of its truth is tautological, Sappy. "I believe the Bible to be the Word of God," believers say. And why? "Because the Bible says so," they reply.
The Bible contains some metaphoric truth, but it is literally false. Jesus' insights, for example, may be true, but the entire context in which they are presented is false -- he was a human being, not a god, and human beings do not rise from the dead.
And how do I know that? I give the problem a close shave with Occam's Razor.
The world is full of claptrap religions making fantastic, supernatural claims that no credible witness ever sees. What's the simplest answer? Is it more likely that all those fantastic, unseen miracles have happened, and that, for example, the universe actually does rest on the shell of a cosmic turtle, or that the people who make those claims are delusional and/or lying?
The answer is obvious. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2008 3:29 PM:

" To 124 it appears that the topic is tabu. The topic I am talking about and Mr. Wilson was talking about is hate mongering. I tried to bring people back to that topic on the other letter thread "Thomas gets a vote for his conservative views." I think the topic is tabu because many people here are hate mongerers (is that a word?)but don't like to admit it and too many people prefer to look the other way. Or perhaps they are just so obsessed with this election they can't think of anything else, one track minds. "

The Truth wrote on Oct 24, 2008 4:35 PM:

" The Bible doesn't say that homosexuality is wrong? Humphreys is laughable AGAIN. It means what is means. When the Bible was written, homosexuality was disgusting to God, as it is today. 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 CLEARLY shows God's standard. It is WRONG and disgusting. If you believe the Bible, you believe it THE WAY IT WAS WRITTEN, not the way you THINK it was written. Keep us laughing humphries, you are good at it. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 24, 2008 8:17 PM:

" It is funny that people can claim the Bible is way out there, yet they are ok with the fact that the universe and everything in it just popped out of no where and that sentient beings evolved from spooge in the sea. That sounds just as far-fetched as any Bible story. It seems more plausible that a diety created the universe than to say it created itself. "

what? wrote on Oct 24, 2008 8:54 PM:

" At the current rate of meltdown Palin will be a puddle of wax by election day, I feel sorry for her in a way. I doubt she will turn to the bible for insight or solace. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2008 9:05 PM:

" Sorry Truth you are wrong again. Corinthians has two problems. First the wording is "Fornicators, idolators, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers--none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. No one "sin" in this list is singled out as being worse, more sinful than any other thing in this list. Notice homosexual is not mentioned. The two words that might be considered are male prostitutes. BUT it clearly says prostitutes. Prostitutes sell their sexual favors. This says nothing about a voluntary relationship between two men and definitely doesn't say anything about women. The next word is sodomites. Now that can refer to a particular variety of sexual activity between male and female as well as between same sex couples. It is not specifically about homosexuals. BUT there is still a further problem because both the Greek words that were translated as "male prostitutes" and "sodomites" were mistranslated. The "male prostitute" word actually refers to soft, unmanly. Which could refer to a homosexual but it also refers to effeminite, non brutish, peace loving, passive men. The word translated as sodomites actually is about sexual exploitation. So a consensual relationship between same sex couples is not implied by this word. Don't take my word for this, check out www.westarinstitute.org and read the full paper for yourself. Ain't modern Biblical scholarship grand! "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 24, 2008 9:07 PM:

" Oh and Truth I agree I think the Bible should be read as it was written, not as you wish it would be. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 24, 2008 11:15 PM:

" The Bible says that we are ALL sinners and fall short of the glory of God. It does not matter what the "sin" is. If one does not repent and accept God, those are the ones who will not inherit the Kingdom of God. It is ok to tell people that they are sinners, since we all are, but it is unnecessary and counterproductive to recite a laundry list of their specific sins as you see it. I think that anyone who CHOOSES homosexuality is sinning. Many say it is not a choice, but they were born that way. I cannot say for sure either way. Anyway, only God knows their hearts. It is not for us to judge anyone. "

what wrote on Oct 24, 2008 11:29 PM:

" I suspect the bible to be a convoluted perverted version of the history of a small percentage of mankind. Torah, Koran, King James Version, same god. Some find comfort, all endure the evil. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 25, 2008 8:18 AM:

" "It seems more plausible to say that a diety created the earth than that the earth created itself." Only if you are afraid to accept the world as it is, on its terms. The more you learn about Science Mr. Miller, the less frightening this great big Universe is. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on Oct 25, 2008 10:54 AM:

" Susan you continue to show your ingnorance by ignoring the words written on the page and then telling me that I'm the one that can't see them clear enough. The New Testament was written in the Greek language. The information that I mentioned in my last statement was taken from the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance of the Holy Bible. It is the most accurate information that you will find on the bible. How can you be so blind not to read clearly that homosexuality is spelled out right in front of you. Are you going to say that because the word itself is not there that the act is not described? Good grief, how sad it is today that people choose to believe the words of man over the words of God. The reason the Bible is true Mr Question is because it has the power to change people's lives no matter what sin they are involved in. If you believe what the bible says and what the bible says that you can have as a believer in Christ you will see that it will work for you! God is in the business of showing himself to those who will ask him to do it. Now back to Susan's comments about the normal life. I made that statement because when you have sexual relations male to male it is so unnatural that disease becomes apparent just as it does when you have sex with many partners. Where did this great bit of knowledge come from? The Word of God! God has laid it all out for us to see if we just lay down our pride and see it. And I am so sick of Susan's hate blaming. I do not have a bit of hate in my life. I love everyone just as God does but I hate their sin just as God does. God set the rules for sin and sinners, if we choose to disobey them then we will pay the consequences for our sin whether we believe it or not! Just remember you're only cool and a smart illect until you die. "

ed miller wrote on Oct 25, 2008 12:26 PM:

" There is no scientific PROOF of either the big-bang or that we evolved from spooge. They are THEORIES. "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 25, 2008 2:12 PM:

" It is not for us to judge anyone. So says ed miller.

Funny but I could swear old eddie has been judging Obama for months on here. Must be another ed miller, huh?

Some one needs to write a letter to the editor about some religious topic so the thumpers and gay bashers, like ed miller, will leave the political threads alone. LOL! "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 25, 2008 3:12 PM:

" Deep Thoughts you read into words a meaning that is not there and was never intended to be there. You also say that you condemn the sin but not the sinner yet your actions show that to be a lie. Discriminating against homosexuals, denying them the same rights as heterosexuals, is condemning/punishing/trying and pronouncing a sentence on the sinner. What I explained to you is that the words in the passages (in our English Bibles) have many meanings. Insisting that the words in the passages have only one meaning is WRONG. I also explained how the two words in Corinthians have been mistranslated. If you want to truly understand "the word of God" as you put it than you have to accept the reality that the Bible you know has been mistranslated and is the word of man NOT the "word of God". There is also the problem that the Bible is NOT nor ever has been the "word of God". It is only what men CLAIM is the word of God. Nothing more. There are many things in this life that have the power to change people for better and worse. The Tao teh Ching, The Upanishads, the writings of Nietsche, of J.K. Rowling. That doesn't make and of them TRUE, it just means that they are all GOOD books and well worth reading. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on Oct 27, 2008 12:07 PM:

" So you would believe in those books that you listed written by man but won't believe in the word of God. It's okay Susan because the one thing that you have to have in order to please God is Faith! The reason you have such a problem with it and need to defend yourself against it is because you don't have faith. You are a very judgemental person and therefore cannot see clearly when the person trying to show you the truth is not being judgemental or critical. Stop trying to tell others what they believe and try to figure out for yourself what you actually do believe. You are in a search for the truth but in your search you are refusing to consider the Truth. There is only one Truth and that Truth is Jesus Christ! The struggle comes because you have to humble yourself under his mighty hand and you have to have Faith in Christ Jesus! There is no other way that it works with God. And by the way he set the rules in the book that you have no faith in. And therein lies the problem. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2008 1:17 PM:

" To Deep Thouights I have not only found the TRUTH but I have also been freed from fear and superstition. Unlike you I fully appreciate and admire the wonders of nature and have no need to make them something other than what they are. Man doesn't have to "humble" himself before anyone. Man doesn't have to "fear" anyone. The one great thing about humans is that unlike our animal brethren we alone can rise above, transcend our pure animal instincts, to make this life we live however long or short, difficult or easy, something that is joyous, fulfilling, creative, stimulating, enlightening. We can become more than what our genetics dictate. BUT only if we are willing to fully develop and use this marvelous plastic brain that we are endowed with. Try using yours sometime, you might just surprise yourself. "

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2008 2:26 PM:

" ed miller wrote on Oct 25, 2008 12:26 PM:
" There is no scientific PROOF of either the big-bang or that we evolved from spooge. They are THEORIES. """

maybe theories, but more believable than a fairy tale about it being created in 7 days 4000 years ago. "

father bob wrote on Oct 27, 2008 2:36 PM:

" deep thoughts 45 wrote on Oct 27, 2008 12:07 PM:
There is no other way that it works with God. And by the way he set the rules in the book that you have no faith in. And therein lies the problem. """"
______________

lets hear it for the 613 comandments/laws set forth in the fairy tale book known as the old testament!! woohoo!

it was written to make people fearful. fearful people are easier to control. not much of it can be proven as true or factual. most of it was written to control the lives of people at the time.

no big mystery, no big secret. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 27, 2008 3:11 PM:

" Oh and Deep Thoughts since there is no "God" how could he have ever written or dictated anything? "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on Oct 28, 2008 1:00 AM:

" Now Susan you state that there is no God. So when you quote from the bible and use Jesus' own words then you must be hallucinating or something. The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Guess where that leaves you? By the way Father Bob you are stuck in a rut. Move on and get out of the OT long enough to see the glorious liberty that is found in the NT through the blood of Jesus Christ! The OT is a reminder of what we have been set free from. It is very sad that the church even struggles with that truth at times. Again Susan, stop being so critical. Just state what you believe and leave it at that. I not only know that there is a God but I have a personal relationship with Him! And yes that means that I hear his voice and I feel his presence. He is a real God and he is a powerful God! There is nothing Impossible with God! "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2008 8:02 AM:

" Deep Thoughts you will just have to accept the reality that there are people that don't believe what you believe and that any argument you present to support your beliefs can be knocked down. You will have to accept the reality that many of these people that don't believe as you believe are more caring, compassionate, considerate, and conscientious citizens than you and many or those who believe like you are. Since if Grace is true all will be saved all that matters in this world is how you treat your fellow man, ALL of them, homosexual and heterosexual, Jew and Gentile, Muslim and Catholic, Buddhist and Wiccan. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2008 8:04 AM:

" Oh and Deep Thoughts I have told you many times that the Bible is a good book and well worth reading. There is great wisdom in its pages that if people like you could understand it better would help make this world a better place. BUT it is not the only good book. There are many great books that can inspire us and help us to lead more fulfilling and compassionate lives. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on Oct 28, 2008 10:41 AM:

" Susan I do agree with you that there are many good books that inspire and encourage but there is none that is more popular or been around longer than the word of God! Heaven and earth will pass away but my words shall not pass away. I take offense that you don't believe that I am compassionate and caring. Anyone that knows me personally would tell you different. Just because I believe what the Almighty God has to say about life and eternal issues does not make me uncompassionate or uncaring. That again shows your shallowness. Sin is sin and those who do not repent of their sin and receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour will not go to Heaven. Grace is God's unmerited favor which means that we cannot earn it! That doesn't mean that it is given to everyone. Jesus paid the price for our sin on Calvary with the shedding of his own blood. If we follow his instructions in the bible and repent and confess that He is Lord and that he was raised from the dead we shall be saved. If we don't then we shall be damned! Again it isn't a matter of whether you believe it or not, it's a matter of reality that all will experience when we leave this earth. Remember that God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. There are your deep thoughts. "

father bob wrote on Oct 28, 2008 12:23 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2008 8:04 AM:
" There are many great books that can inspire us and help us to lead more fulfilling and compassionate lives. "

susan, have you known many conservatives who read much or care about intellectually enlightening information?.....i really doubt it. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2008 4:25 PM:

" Deep Thoughts the Upanishads and the Tao teh Ching are older than the Bible. Since you have never read them, how do you know that they aren't the "word of God" (in the same way that the Bible is, inspired by mans concept of God)? As you said "Grace is God's unmerited favor" and thus it has to be granted to everyone otherwise it won't be Grace. It would be bribery, or extortion, quid pro quo. Do you think that Homosexuals are entitled to the same rights as Heterosexuals? Do you think that your concept of what is right/wrong, sin/virtue should be the standard that laws that affect everyone should be based upon? Do you honor the sacred texts of other religions? Do you think that people who don't believe as you do are or can be good, honest, productive citizens? Do you think that those less fortunate deserve government services (spreading the wealth around, so to speak)? Do you support the death penalty? Do you think that a woman should have the right to decide what happens to her own body, make her own medical decisions? You claim to be compassionate but you haven't shown any compassion for those that are different from you in your words on these pages. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2008 4:26 PM:

" Compassion is all about how you treat your fellow man, especially those that are different from you. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2008 4:29 PM:

" Father Bob I have said before that I don't write for folks like Deep Thoughts, I write for those that are still searching, still open to knowledge, those that haven't been corrupted or polluted by the misguided fear and hate preached by their elders. "

cd wrote on Oct 28, 2008 7:19 PM:

" shumphreys=Bernadine Dhorn ? "

Harry Potter wrote on Oct 28, 2008 7:45 PM:

" cd=Joe the plumber's helper. "

shumphreys wrote on Oct 28, 2008 9:04 PM:

" Grow up CD. "

father bob wrote on Oct 29, 2008 4:23 PM:

" cd wrote on Oct 28, 2008 7:19 PM:
" shumphreys=Bernadine Dhorn ? "

________

cd you mean Bernadine Dohrn?....and did you even know who bernadine was before you saw something about william ayers on False News?? i doubt it...so don't try to act intelligent, we all know better. "