" And they (Marx & Lenin) will throw one heck of a party in late January 2009 if Obama gets elected (especially with the senate and house controlled by the Democrat/Socialists). "

" cd wrote on Oct 20, 2008 10:50 AM:
" And they (Marx & Lenin) will throw one heck of a party in late January 2009 if Obama gets elected (especially with the senate and house controlled by the Democrat/Socialists). """"

very wise....comrade. praise be to allah! "

" And all of the retired janitors from EIU will be outside protesting. LOL! "

" Actually, it's Mussolini and Hitler who are smiling. "

" cd: If you are worried about socialism, they why do you back a system that pays corporations 4000 TIMES more money than they do caring for the poor? Do you know what that system's called? Corporatism or Plutocracy! Do you like those words better? How about fascism? We, as a nation, are also leaning toward that type of government too? Both parties signed that stupid (only because I can't swear here) bailout (handout) bill. Both parties are just as guilty of their crimes of greed, corruption, lies and being available to the highest bidder. BOTH parties ignored the millions of calls, letters and town hall meetings from us, we the people, and chose to rob us of our own money to let banks loan it back out to us...and then charge us interest. So, Mr. Zane, putting either party in power is just another way of letting the plutocrats keep running our lives and look down on us as fools who go to work, pay our bills and keep doing the same things over and over, expecting different results. And once again, due to our "free choices" here we are, with only 2 choices for elections. Or, do we have other choices?....YES WE DO! Think, remember, get mad and VOTE! Fire them ALL! Take back our power of the vote. Let them remember who they work for. US and NOT the corporations. "

" yeah god forbid horrible old terrosrist Obma lead the country right? lol what a joke the republicans are, McCain will probably quit politics all together when he loses "

" I looked at the websites of four different socialist/Marxist/leftist parties or organizations and every one of them strenuously OPPOSED the recent bailout/rescue. There is no way that a real socialist would support a bailout of the capitalism system. On the contrary, socialists on these websites strongly argue against this effort to save the capitalist system from its own frailties. "

" FDIC insurance on your bank deposits is socialism. I take it you'd like to get rid of it and let the sticky-fingered banksters' "free market" reign over your life savings?
The bailout wasn't a socialist criminal disaster. The ordinary people of the U.S. won't see a dime of it. The bailout was a FASCIST criminal disaster. "

" Walmart is also smiling. Times like this forces their competition out, and right now they a capitolizing on the effects on china, to increase their proliferations there. Likely investing more heavily in cheap labor produced manufacturing.

Cutting out the middle men, we can count on lower prices to result. When walmart wins, we win, before long we will have low prices, and a smiley face on every sign between walking in and the self check out aisles. Look at all the savings we have already. Those prices are going to drop like crazy, very soon.

The Bush tax cuts, were translated direcly to cuts in prices, by many businesses. Some went diectly to employees wages. Others divided them equally between both. Its unfortunate this well documented fact is left out, and Bush is only getting blame, and no praise for his overall efforts.

McCain just wants to carry the torch a little bit further into the forest, and show us what true unadulterated republican policy in capitolism, can really do.

Rich people are what this country was designed to protect. Poor and middle class, just don't get the big picture of what good republican policy does for the greater good of the country.

Without rich people, who is going to meddle in controlling local govenment, or newspapers, and use a mural for a tax write off donation? Who is going to keep needed competition out, and use public money to build TIF financed development duplicating businesses and existing markets already struggling to be competitive and profitable in the reality that exists?

If not for the rich and connected, all streets in mattoon, would be oil and chip or slag covered. We need to thank our lucky stars for what these individuals have done for this community. So a few streets, parks, sidewalks, and public areas have been victims of budget cuts, if not for these proposed visions of moving to a better future, this town would not be what it is today. Its a small sacrifice to make for the ultimate greater good they are looking to bring to this community.

They know more about this complicated stuff, than citizens do, it's best to let them inact their visions completely before we pass any negative judgements on them. "

" Well, well, well... looks like we have an economic philosopher at hand!

Problem is, Adam Smith advocated the invisible hand of government in the economy -- NOT a blind policy of inaction. Smith never said that government should not have a role to play in economics -- NEVER. Let's look at something Smith actually said:

"the sovereign has only three duties to attend to ... thirdly, the duty of erecting and maintaining certain public works and certain public institutions, which it can never be for the interest of any individual, or small number of individuals, to erect and maintain..."

Banking institution fall under "public instutions, which it can never be for the interest of any individual to maintain."

We have public defense, public police, public education, public fire protection, public water, and public streets. We have wage lages, discrimination laws, workmans compensation, and tariffs. There is a lot of your so-called socialism in our economy. Either we have a lot of socialism or maybe, just maybe, Mr. Zane doesn't understand socialism in the first place?

This isn't socialism -- it's a bailout of capitalist systems that have failed. Is it a good idea? I really don't know. Not many people like the bailout, but every serious economist has warned that without it we're going to be even worse off than we are now.

Do we want a melt-down of our economy because the engines that fuel the flow of capital, labor, and goods -- or do we want to pretend we know the different between capitalism and socialism and decry any action on the part of government as morally wrong?

Before we jump on the capitalist for capitalism's sake bandwagon, let's remember that Adam Smith outlined the capitalist system as the world was changing from a nationalist system of merchantilism to a nationalist system of capitalism. We are no longer in a nationalist, capitalist system but rather a global capitalist system. Therein lies the difference between Free-Trade and Fair-Trade. Therein lies the new role for government -- replacing the formerly assumed role of national loyalty in the capitalist system to a define role of promoting nationalist goals through a capitalist system. "

" I get a kick out of conservative talk show hosts, columnists and politicians who claim that Barack Obama is a "socialist," a "Marxist," or a "Communist." Many of these right-wingers are the same people who claim that just about every social program is "socialist." Things like Social Security, food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, the minimum wage and unemployment compensation are all called "socialist" by these same people. "

" Becky, it's really none of my business, but I can't help wondering what percentage of your income you gave to the poor or other charitable causes for that matter (ACLU dues not acceptable)in the past year. Liberals are so anxious to give money to the poor, other people's money that is, but polls show that they are reluctant to give their oun money to the poor or other charities for that matter. "

" Matt Toon wrote on Oct 22, 2008 12:14 PM:
" I get a kick out of conservative talk show hosts, columnists and politicians who claim that Barack Obama is a "socialist," a "Marxist," or a "Communist." Many of these right-wingers are the same people who claim that just about every social program is "socialist." Things like Social Security, food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, the minimum wage and unemployment compensation are all called "socialist" by these same people."""""


you forgot to mention farm subsidies.....you never want to leave out the farmer's welfare checks. "

" Oddly enough, after years of a drawn out war, improving veterans benefits, and the GI bill, is entitlements McCain wants nothing to do with. Give too much up front, they won't be required to become career soldiers, to earn a decent wage andbenefit package, and will serve one enlistment and get out.

Most soldiers I have known, signed up for another or several tours, if it fit them, not if it would be good career, or benefit management. I haven't known any admirals sons, to know what their motivations and mind set is. I know many soldiers. I don't agree with all of them,on everything but respect their service, and appreciate their sacrifice. I don't think more incentive, and benefits for defending this nation is out of line.

The last seven years have seen our troop levels stretched precariously thin. Moral is always an issue, and lives at risk, injured and lost, are increasingly trying factors on it. Most people who go military are not multi tour candidates. It takes a special breed of person to sign up again, more fully knowing what is involved. This is no admonishment of one term soldiers. The best case scenario, is not sighning back up because it is not the fit people need, rather than extended tours, and calling back on options, and them never comming home, or getting the chance to decide. We have a volunteer military. Increasing enlistments for the first tour, reduces strains, limitations, over extensions, and the likelyhood some more will opt to stay in for multiples.

How does a career soldier not get it and act so out of touch? "

" TERM LIMITS--Good enough for the POTUS, then it is darn sure good enough for Congress. "

" And while we are at it, why should congress receive full benefits no matter how long they serve. I cannot work at my job for four years and be voted out, basically fired, and retire with the same benefits, pension, and health insurance as people who worked for many years. "

" Matt toon do you even know what the Socialism, Communism, Marxism doctrines/definitions are? Perhaps you should check your dictionary before you use such big words. "

" Mr. Miller the answer to your question is they have a poweful lobby, with lots of Congressmen in their pockets. "

" Congress with their gold plated parachutes and benefits, should be good at rooting out corupt businesses who do it, at inoportune times. Any business accepting bailout tax dollars, is going to have to restructure its executive compensation plans.

I do think hey have to serve 7 years, to get full benefits vested. Its still not long enough, in an institution, where if you pulled some of this stuff in the private sector, 6 to 10 or 20 to life would be the ultimate compensation packages earned. "

" I think congress and big business, needs to be taken skydiving with their golden parachutes. If a few of them see the aftermath of chute deployment up close and personal, I think they might be shaken to a better sense of responsiblity.

The more details that emerge on this crisis, now including Greenspans shock it was so big and far reaching, Enron keeps comming to mind. Enron got so brazen they had to start flick power grids on and off, to inflate prices and markets, before they evebtually got caught. This equates to Capone being nabbed for taxes. It did little to quell organized crime, except for them to be more sure the front business taxes were in order.

Business figured out, as long as they weren't playing with the light switches, or their individual market controls, they could top Enron, in playing the same games. Unless flags went up, alarms whaled, or someone got sloppy, this administration was not worried about regulations, it just wanted people to make as much money as they coule, and everyone would be hunky dory.

Retaining greenspan, was a mistake of multiple administrations. Its not all his fault, but he is not free of complicity in the root causes either. "

" Susan: I was quite surprised by your post. In what ways do you disagree with me? Do you believe that Obama is, in fact, a socialist. (I sort of imply that he isn't.) I also point out that radical right-wingers call such programs as Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid "socialist." Surely you aren't disagreeing with that. If you are, you don't pay much attention to the right-wing talk shows or the columnists. The most radical of these people believe that nearly all these federal programs are unconstitutional as well as socialistic. We don't know for sure, but many people speculate that Sarah Palin is so extreme that she actually agrees with these people. "

" Well Sapient, not that it's any of your business, but I only make $23,000 a year, am a single widow, don't get any social security from late husband due to changes in the law, and have a 19 year old daughter who is going to school, working part time. However, I do manage to donate food to the food pantry, shampoo, soap, deodorant and the like to PADS and I help some elderly friends in the area when they need rides to and from doctors visits and the grocery store. You see sapient, while money is unfortunately a necessity in our times, it's not the only way we can help each other. "

" Socialism a system of social organization by which the means of production and distribution are owned, managed, or controlled by the government or by associations of workers or as in my Electric Coop owned by the workers and users.Many government programs are socialistic. Communism a system by which the means of production and distribution are owned and managed by the government, and the goods produced are shared by all citizens. Marxism, theories of Karl Marx, who was an advocate of socialism.Those are the simplest definitions found in an average high school dictionary. Many on the far right on these pages cry that Obama will bring the country to Socialism without realizing we are already there. "

" Matt Toon, you make an excellent point. Social security, Medicare, etc. are considered "socialistic" by many on the political right. Those who are supporting McCain need to study a little history, to see what this country was like before these and other "socialist" programs were introduced.

When Social Security was first introduced, it was argued (then as now) that the nation's charities should help its elderly citizens. However, charities were not able to help even then--certainly, in this day and age, their assistance would be minimal.

Some people get what McCain is all about, and what he's about isn't that different from what Bush has been about. After all, McCain is running as a Republican candidate.

People around here have a mistaken idea of the Democratic voter. What they don't understand is that many who vote Democratic this year will be older white men who would never have expected to vote for a black candidate. These men once had factory jobs that paid them good wages. Many of them lost jobs and pensions as their employers relocated overseas. Some were laid off and later found work with non-union campanies that paid much less and had questionable safety records.

These men know what is at stake. They know what it is like when corporations are allowed to make their own rules and pursue profit as the bottom line. They know what their pensions would be if they were left up to the companies employing them. They know what type of health and life insurance they would have.

Likewise, they know how safe their working conditions would be. They know that the chemical disaster that occurred in Bhopal, India, in 1984--which killed thousands and is still killing--is something that could have happened here (without those annoying governmental regulations).

I only hope that enough people have become aware. These are religious people who have, in the past, been seduced by the Republican ploy of dragging out abortion and gay rights issues during election campaigns. Things may have changed this year--I certainly hope so. "

" Susan: In general I agree with your post of today. Far rightwingers have claimed ever since the 1930s that "evil" liberals have brought full-blown socialism to America. Then, in almost the next breath, they warn that Obama will take us into socialism. I would ask the far rightwingers: If we have had socialism since the 1930s how could Obama lead us into socialism? We have been there for 75 years. "

" Susan: In general I agree with your post of today. Far rightwingers have claimed ever since the 1930s that "evil" liberals have brought full-blown socialism to America. Then, in almost the next breath, they warn that Obama will take us into socialism. I would ask the far rightwingers: If we have had socialism since the 1930s how could Obama lead us into socialism? We have been there for 75 years. "

" Becky: You should be commended for what you give and contributing what you can. I we all did that there would be no need for government welfare which is what Obama's plan is- the taking from one group to give to another group. The point is that according to the polls liberals give far less of their own money to charity than do conservatives, but want to give other people's money away. And, of course, those who will receive this largesse will approve. As George Bernard Shaw put it, " A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." "

" If we have had socialism since the 1930s how could Obama lead us into socialism? We have been there for 75 years. "

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Allow me to jump in here Matt. They can't. The right wingers use this, along with abortion as red meat to throw out to their rabid base every election year. This is especially effective with the non thinkers, you know the ones who let Fixed news think for them, and it gets them all worked up into a frenzy. You see the results of this on here every day, and our own ed miller is the classic example of the phenomenon. "

" To Matt Toon I apologize for coming down a bit harshly on you. The double speak from both extremes is really quite amazing. I doubt that many ever pay attention to their own arguments to note how nonsensical their statements are. "