" Ms. Bennett you are entitled to your belief BUT you are not entitled to interfere in the medical practice between any other woman and her doctor. Pro-choice is about keeping medical decisions between the parties directly involved, who have a personal stake in the issue. "

" Susan: No one has a larger stake in this issue than the baby and you are not giving him/her a choice. If the baby had a choice I'm sure he/she would choose to live. "

" SH, being prolife is not a *medical decision*. It is a morality issue. The baby's life is not the mother's life.

Where do you, and Barack Obama, draw the line? The story of the battered and broken body of the 7-month old this week illustrates my point well.

Why is the man who caused harm to that baby held to a higher standard of account than a doctor who could have aborted that same soul just 7 months earlier? Why is one punished while the other is praised by the likes of you? "

" I agree with both Shumphreys and Ms. Bennett - every woman has a right to make the decision that she is comfortable with. I often find myself offended by the rhetoric of both sides. Often pro-choice women say that they are speaking for all women who want a choice, and that simply is not true. Neither side is correct, although I prefer that a woman have the right to choose and not be chastised either way. "

" Pregnancy and abortions ARE medical decisions. Pregnancy is still one of the most dangerous times in a womans life. Deciding whether to go through with a pregnancy is totally between a woman and her Doctor. Saving a baby at the expense of the pregnant woman is IMMORAL. Interfering between a woman and her Doctor is IMMORAL.No ifs ands or buts. "

" Oh and one more point. Before you site the Biblical injunction of "thous shalt not kill" remember this: we send soldiers to war and tell them it is OK to kill the enemy, in fact we tell them it is their patriotic duty. If it is OK for them to kill it is hypocritical not to allow abortions. We tell police officers it is OK to kill in their line of duty. Many of the anti-abortion folks support the death peanalty. So lets cut the hypocriscy. Either all killing is wrong or there are some instances where it is allowed and INDIVIDUALS sometimes have to make difficult decisions. "

" Beaches, what about the rights of the father? Does he have no say in the matter at all? Assuming that it isn't a case of rape or incest or that the life of the mother isn't at risk, shouldn't the father have an equal say as to whether his offspring lives or dies? "

" The anti-abortion people are often ignorant of science. There is an interesting issue in the upcoming election in Colorado, an amendment to the state constitution being voted on by the people to the effect that A HUMAN BEING IS CREATED AT THE INSTANT OF CONCEPTION.
The interesting contradiction is that embryologists tell is that this fertilized egg may "twin" up to nearly a week after conception.
HOWS EMBARRASSING. At the instant of conception we have A human being created -- and now a few days later suddenly we have TWO human beings. Where shall we hide the "extra"; how shall we explain under the law how a single human being has suddenly become two human beings -- or perhaps more.
Not surprising that this scientific contradiction was the work of an 18 year old young woman who is ardently pro-life but ignorant of embryology. "

" Shumphreys, what right do you have to come between an unborn baby and life. Babies dont have a choice to be conceived and by your decadent standards they dont have a choice about being killed. You who claim to have enlightened compassion for your fellow human beings have no compassion for one who is as helpless and vulnerable as a human baby. Every woman has before her the choice to let her baby live. Most of you that are so adamantly trying to defend abortions are just trying to make your guilt feelings go away because you have had an abortion and you are seeking justification for your choice. There is no justification for this sin however there is forgiveness from a loving God whos in the business of forgiving even that sin but if you can never confess to Him that you have sinned He wont.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I keep telling you the Bible has the answer and the solution for every problem. "

" The difference is a birth certificate, and the definition of crime. If an unborn child is injured or killed as a result of a crime, it is also often prosecuted.

Roe v Wade was thirty years ago. For three decades pro life has fought it. Clinics bombed, many ugly faces have emerged in what is supposed to be a suport of life. What has pro life done but take issue with the abortion ruling issue, and pick and choose a few other places to legislate life. But only when they see fit and if it doesn't require them to be any further involved in any responsibility, unless they choose to make their view on it law.

If they overturned it, would they get conception certificates implimented?
Would all produced fertilized eggs, have to be born, in fertility clinics? Would options for conception, be legislated along with abortion?

They haven't made unwanted and orphaned children a priority, in all this time. They want it law all conceived children are born, but have done nothing to ensure care, love and support await the ones who already are. Kids are there right now, not unborn children that are currently up to the parents to deal with. From 0 to 18, kids are there to do something for, right here in this country. Social programs, affect children. What has been done for children who are born, by the folks who just want to legislate the womb?

These folks want to legislate one event in time, here and there and not be burdoned with the rest of an unwanted childs life. They put on displays of numbers of lives lost to abortions. The sad reality is courts, prisons and institutions are filled with some of the results of unwanted children who were born and not properly cared for and loved. It takes more than just conception, to become a productive, and capable citizen. Reality is, things are not much better on the whole, for kids who face an uphill battle, once they emerge from the womb.

Its not wrong to be pro life. Pro life, generally goes about it all wrong. Most people are pro life, when you get right down to it. A few chosen issues are battled over, but most place value on life in general.

People who support the right for a woman to choose, are usualy the ones who encourage education, birth control, and social programs, prenatal and post partom care, to make abortion less of an implemented choice. Pro choice has been more pro active, at actual alternatives to abortion than Pro life has. Pro choice provides more options, and support that reduces the numbers of abortions.

Its been thirty years. its bigger than this one issue, it always was. Be proactive in actual benefits to kids, or keep printing flyers, and sticking crosses in the ground, and fighting the ones who are actually making abortion less likely to be the choice.

The choice saved lives. Back alley clinics, and illegal risky procedures by unlicensensed or questionable physicians were the only altenative, when abortion was illegal. That is what got it made legal. Stuck on one aspect of one issue, has done nothing but alienate and divide, and kids are still born into loveless lives, and expected to become productive members of a society so full of its self, some feel it needs to impose laws but not support the consequences those laws lead to.

The more hate that is disseminated, in the name of religion or love, the less likely people facing the reality of the issues, will be as open and educated about the options.

Religion can be one of the most hate filled, begrudging, biased, and individualized idealisms, man ever holds. Its been that way for thousands of years. Its no less divided, than it ever was. Most religions are based on social values, and proport tolerance, and love of fellow man as their basis. People of religious faith, decide to choose who they will tolerate, judge, and condemn. Calling those notions christianity, doesn't originate from the bible I read.

Muslem extremists also selectively interpret and value their religious book. The koran is more of a peace on earth, good will toward men, book than the bible, from what I know of it. It is twisted to mean what the extremists lead followers to believe, and those extreme views are denounced by true scholars of the texts.

Christian extremists, have been in exisence as long as christianity has. Wars and atrocities in the names of various churches, and religions, have been part of religions role in the world, dating back to the beginings of civilization. "

" Mr. Vanatta what right do you have to interfere in a womens medical decisions? You call yourself a Christian and use the Bible to justify harming women. The victim of a rapist is just as innocent as the fertilized egg she just found she is carrying. Many innocents have been sent to death row, all too few have been saved and found innocent. Cut the BS about only a woman who has had an abortion could argue for the right for other women to have one. You used the same argument about homosexuals,you accused me of being one because I support the rights for homosexuals. If you want to stop abortions, then support and fund birth control programs for all women and men of child bearing and procreating age. Support responsible Sex Education classes in public schools not the abstinance only BS that Christian fundamentalists like yourself force on others. Support Planned Parenthood an organization that provides all family planning services at adjusted rates for whoever comes through their doors. When will you grow up and quit putting your own self interests, before the interests of others. That is after all the core of Jesus message, to bad you are too egotistical/self-rightous to pay any attention to it. "

" how about people control themselves and try preventing pregnancy, people want to whine about what to do after they are pregnant, they shoulda thought that out and if they didn't they should have used protection or the pill or the morning after pill etc...we shouldn't have to have abortions, people should just wise up "

" SELF CONTROL "

" I was one who didn't show self-control or think about the future or use the morning after pill. I was 16 and my son is now 39. He wasn't a mass of tissue. He is a grown man who was given a chance at life when I was a child. My grandmother was the product of rape. She wasn't a mass of tissue, but the most wonderful person I have ever known. No doubt about it...abortion stops a beating heart! Choose life. "

" Gringa:

Valid point - the rights of the father should be considered. The ties between father and child are just as strong as mother and child. Everything starts to get murky when people begin not taking procreation seriously and start making children that no one (women included) wants to take responsibility for.

Mike P - very logical, valid arguments. I am pro-choice, which does not mean pro-abortion. I think that would be a terrible decision to have to make, and I'm glad I never found myself in that spot.

Shumphreys: Some of your arguments are good as well, but what gives you the right to force sex education on children whose parents choose to teach abstinence? I often find it fascinating that those who yell the loudest for freedom and less red tape are the quickest to ask others to give that up when they don't agree. I see that you feel passionately about this, but don't you think it is wrong to force your views on those that don't agree? "

" "The interesting contradiction is that embryologists tell is that this fertilized egg may "twin" up to nearly a week after conception."

Cognitus, this isn't really relevant to the argument against abortion; one life or two, what does it matter? Abortions are performed far later in fetal development anyway.

Christians are against abortion because Scripture condemns killing except when it occurs in self-defense or as a result of war. Also, in the Old Testament, capital punishment is permitted when there are at least two witnesses to the offense.

As far as abortion goes, my personal rights end where the body of another person begins--even if that body is temporarily within (and supported by) my own.

That being said, those who oppose abortion need to support social policy that encourages young women to carry their unborn children to term. Adoption laws need to be improved, among other things. Churches need to be involved as well, not condemning but assisting those who need help. "

" Humphreys, harming women is not the issue, brutally killing babies is the issue. Killing babies that are even to the point of living outside the womb is the issue. It has been medically testified that the abhorrent intact D&E (partial birth abortion) does not save a womans life. Actually in very few cases is it because a womans life is in danger that the baby is so brutally killed. Its because the baby is an inconvenience. Planned Parenthood has one priority: abortions. It is not a matter of choice because Planned Parenthood does not give a woman a choice there is just one path to take once a pregnant girl or woman enters a PP clinic because THEY WANT THE MONEY. The federal funding they get is not enough to satisfy this BLOODY non-profit organization. You abortionists love to use your own words when talking about abortion no dismembering, no decapitating, how refreshing and how wonderfully safe and beautiful the whole process is it makes you feel so good about how you are benefiting mankind or I should say womankind. Over 40 million babies have been brutally murdered since 1973 and there was NO CHOICE FOR THEM. The abortionists are concerned now of course they are. The abortion industry is greatly disturbed that its cash cow is in jeopardy. "

" My goodness, the antichrist shumphreys is at it again!

The CORE message of Jesus' preaching was the KINGDOM OF GOD, and how it will solve mankinds problems.

While he did give lessons on how we should treat one another, that was not his "core" teaching.


It is not up to me, or shumphreys, or anybody else to say who should or should not have an abortion. I personally believe that the Bible condemns it; and those who know their Bible know that there are provisions made when a woman was raped on how to handle the situation. I challenge shumphreys to find it. She won't, because she is more interested in what the world thinks rather than what God thinks.

Putting that aside, it boils down to each persons' individual belief on how they would or would not handle the situation. I do, however, find it hard to imagine Jesus promoting Planned Parenthood, or advocating abortion. I doubt he would have advocated sex education in school either. He would have, instead, taught what his father taught; that human life is sacred, from conception, that sex is only for two people who are married, that sex education is to be passed on by the parents, not strangers, and that people are either going to follow his father's words, or they won't.


Again, when this system is brought to an end by Jesus and his angels, people like shumphreys will wish they listened to those who tried to warn them. Good news for true christians, bad news for those who ignore God's word. "

" Ms. Humphreys,

We've already been over the weak analogy of saying someone cannot kill enemies, badguys, prisoners etc.... and be pro-life. The difference in these cases is that an unborn child is completely innocent. That is a claim no adult on earth can share. Why do you think the law is harsher on someone who punches a child over hitting another adult? The law has to help the helpless.

Trying to ride the fence and say you are apposed to abortion, but support a woman's right to choose is akin to Southern sympathizers during the civil war. They were against slavery, but didn't want to ban it in the South. How are those people viewed today?

The point is that most abortions are simply for the "convenience" of the parents. We are extinguishing the life of an innocent human being because some people acted irresponsibly. So, who wants to hear what the baby's "choice" probably is. "

" First sex education is a Public Health issue (not just Aids but other STDs) and a Public Financial issue and a Public Safety issue.The resulting unwanted children can end up as wards of the state costing the taxpayers money. Mothers with unwanted children often end up unable to get a college education and get stuck in deadend low payingjobs dependent on ADC to support their children. AND unwanted children are often subject to child abuse and abused children often, though not always, become abusive adults. Prevention is the BEST policy, and prevention starts with EDUCATION. Parents can still teach abstinance as their BEST solution at home or in their church where such instruction belongs. "

" My goodness, the antichrist shumphreys is at it again!"

Wow, and I thought I had some loony detractors!

When reading some of the comments to Susan's messages I am often reminded of the memorable Jack Nicholson movie line, "You can't handle the truth". "

" When babies can be developed invitro, without the willing or unwilling womb of a woman, than Mr. Vanatta can claim that this issue is ONLY about INNOCENT babies. Pregnancy is a life endangering event for a woman, even with the best of health care, which not all women get, and complications can have lifelong effects. Decisions about pregnancy belong ONLY with a woman and her Doctor. Interference by third parties is IMMORAL. "

" To THE TRUTH and just what do you think God's Kingdom on earth will be about? What will it look like? How will people be treated in this kingdom? Don't you think that this kingdom will be one where the rights of ALL people are respected? Have you completely missed the message that WE can bring about this Kingdom by our actions towards others? That is exactly what Jesus message is about. "

" Mr. Miller if your only justification for outlawing abortion is based on the Biblical injunction "Thou shalt not kill" then the analogy with killing in a time of war, killing innocents in a time of war, killing by policeman, killing for the death penalty is a PERFECTLY strong and effective analogy. AND it is one that you haven't been able to mount a STRONG argument against. "

" AND Mr. Miller saying that a person can't be "pro-life" and "pro-choice" at the same time is ridiculous. You also have the same concept about homosexuality, you can only support homosexual rights if you are a homosexual. You just can't accept the fact that there are many that are more spiritually advanced than you are. Vicky is a Christian. Many women Christian and non support the rights of ALL people and recognize that women sometimes have to make difficult decisions and that true compassion is about helping a woman make those decisions and not judging, condeming, or threatening but supporting with accurate non-biased medical based information and services, and supporting the woman with whatever decision is made. I am not a Christian but as I have shown in the above sentence I understand what TRUE compassion is all about, and that Mr. Miller is taught by Jesus and Buddha and Lao Tzu to name a few. "

" Like I posted earlier, where do we draw the line? If unborn children are not entitled to protection under the law as an individual, when does that entitlement begin? Is it at birth, or day one, day two, the seventh month, age thirteen, twenty one, thirty-nine?

I ask, Susan Humphreys: When do you bestow a Child of God the right to exist? Will your answer be that the right to life begins only when one can be self-supportive? Then what you do with the premature newborn babies who live on life support? Can you and Obama sneak into the nursery unit and kill them too? How about the right to life of the adult who suddenly finds him/herself on life support? Is it OK to kill them too? Do you remove the feeding tube and allow them to starve them to death, or are you allowed to simply puncture their head with a surgical instrument and suck their adult brain out of their skull?

I'd really like to know, Susan, who you and Obama have a right to kill with no consequences, and at what age does your right to kill end? Just wondering? "

" Ed Miller said:"The difference in these cases is that an unborn child is completely innocent."

And how many people have been excecuted by the states that later have been found compeletly innocent? "

" Gringa the point is that I do not have the right, the moral authority to make that distinction and neither do you. The decision to abort a pregnancy is ONLY between a woman and her Doctor. Just as the decision for any other medical care should be between a person and his/her Doctor. OR in the case of a comatose patient, between the legal next of kin and the Doctor. In this world we are forced all the time to make uncomfortable decisions between the rights of one human being and the rights of others. It is IMMORAL for third parties to intervene in medical decisions between a patient and his/her Doctor, whether that involves abortion, pregnancy, surgery, life support, or life termination. Compassion is understanding the difficult decisions people have to make and supporting them with the unbiased medical information they need, services they need, and mental support they need to make and live with whatever decision they make. "

" Ms. Humphreys,

You are twisting my words somewhat, or maybe I was not clear. Abortion should not be used as "birth control". Yes, birth can be dangerous, but if the mother was so concerned about the risk she should not engage in the act of conception. If you could find the statistics, I would bet that over 95% of abortions have nothing to do with rape, incest, or health issues. The parents simply acted irresponsibly and now don't want to deal with the result.

The point I am also trying to make is that the law is not protecting the unborn child. We are all given the right to live unless a court decides that we are a danger to society. That is not about the Bible or a moral issue, it is the law. However, an unborn child is not granted the same protection under the law and that is not right. Why can someone be charged for murder for killing an unborn child, but a doctor can do it legally. When is an unborn child granted the same rights as everyone else?

Ironically, the right to an abortion was lumped in with the 14th amendment, which was used to give equal rights to freed slaves. This amendment, meant to provide equal protection under the law for ALL citizens, is used to strip the rights of an unborn child. I really can't see how the justices found the the right to have an abortion written into the amendment. It is just another example of the court legislating from the bench. If Congress passes a law allowing abortion, I still won't like it, but at least that is how our system is supposed to work.

BTW, it's nice to have a debate on here without childish name-calling. Thanks for not stooping to the level of some. "

" Gringa makes very good points when asking when a person's rights begin but Humphreys even more important when do you think life begins? And if that question is above your pay grade then why are you even writing about this? "

" I disagree with Palin's extremist statement that even in cases of rape and incest, that abortion is not an option. I think it would be awful to look at your child and see the very person that attacked you. It would be better to adopt than to deal with that- at least you wouldn't know, and that is still a child without a home. The thing is, many Repubs voted for Bush because of his stance on abortion, however, Bush didn't change anything about it...do we really want another Bush in office? If people pick McCain Palin, we may be in for a neverending war. Is abortion really the key issue in this election? "

" The issue Mr. Vanatta isn't about when life begins. Mr. Miller is at least getting close. The issue is about "When do the rights of one living entity trump the rights of another." AND "how in a civil society do we make such decisions." Who do we let decide, politicians, preachers, lawyers, Doctors? I say that we let the Doctor and the individual involved decide any other choice is IMMORAL. If Mr. Miller objects to abortions being used for birth control then I suggest he support family planning programs that provide FREE birth control to all of child bearing and child procreating age AND that he support free morning after pills for rape victims and careless adults and impetuous teens. Teen pregnancies are up for the first time since 1991 by the way. Abstinance only programs don't work. Education and FREE birth control are the key to stopping (or at least slowing down/limiting) abortions. "

" The reason the argument over when life starts is NOT the issue is this. Medical advances are making it possible to "save" premature babies at younger and younger gestation periods. BUT you never here the statistics about the life long health and mental problems many of those babies face or the cost of their medical care. Unplesant realities that sooner or later humans will have to address. It won't be long before a fertilized egg can be removed from a uterus and implanted in a mechanical uterus, after all modern incubators in premie wards are just about to that point. Talk about "test tube" babies. The argument over "when life begins" is no longer relavant. "

" a friend's wife was brutally beaten and raped in a mall parking lot some years ago. she became pregnant as a result.

she wanted and got an abortion, and is very happy today after several years of recovery. i have asked her since about the choice she made. "the seed of a satanic beast" is how she referred to it.

choice is a woman's, and it's between her, her doctor, and whatever god she thinks she believes in....not for jon vanatta or gringa or elmer fudd to decide.

i hope it never happens to your wife, daughter or close friend. you'll have to eat your words. "

" for those people championing teaching abstinence only in schools....why? it's all fine and dandy that you want your kids to wait to have sex until they're married. that's GREAT! what about all the kids that don't have a strong religious faith to depend on when the temptation gets to be too much? they should learn how to avoid pregnancy and STD's. and for those kids who are going the abstinence only route...don't they need that information too? they may not be planning on having sex but knowledge is power. "

" if you think that they're going to go have sex just because they learned about it in sex ed, then you must have no confidence in your arenting skills. "

" *sigh* Parenting skills

(god forbid the typing police come after me) "

" To Ed Miller, Vanatta, gringa, and others: if men were the ones who had to give birth to unplanned babies, abortion would not only be held as a sacred right, but would be readily available in every town and covered by health insurance!

It takes 2 people to make a child after all, so why are you excusing the men from their responsibilities? I'd be willing to bet that if more men were willing to step up to the plate and provide for their offspring, fewer women would make the difficult choice to abort. "

" You did notice I said "parents". "

" I wonder how many parents who stress abstinence are the parents of sons. Are you really telling your boys to wait to have sex until they're 25 or 30 and settle down to marry, or is that advice only intended for your daughters?

I think too many men have a cavalier attitude about sex. The one-night stand is socially acceptable for them, and they aren't close enough to the woman they slept with to even know if pregnancy resulted or if the woman who pleasured them is left wrestling with a difficult decision.

Too many on the pro-life side are perfectly willing to live by a double-standard in which an unmarried man can "sow his wild oats," but a woman is expected to remain chaste, never lose physical control or cross a line, and if she somehow does, she's scum of the earth if she aborts the child she can't afford to feed, or should be forced go through the public humiliation of a pregnancy and giving the child up for adoption. "She should have thought of that before she chose to have sex," they moralize. What about the men who have sex with these women? Where are their obligations??

And BTW, not all abortions happen because the woman was careless. No birth control, not even the pill, is 100% effective -- not even for married people. Are people supposed to practice abstinence for life?? "

" humphreys, you continue to refer to abortions as "medical care" or "medical decisions" - as if an unborn is the same as a cancer.

You're on the wrong wave length. Wise up. "

" gringa, Let's see. An abortion is provided by a medical doctor in a medical setting using medical implements. Sounds like medical care to me.

You're the one who needs to "wise up" and get on the right "wave length." The majority of Americans, even if personally opposed to abortion, support keeping it safe and legal. Not everyone shares your narrow, hypocritical, moralizing view of the world -- thank GOD!!! "

" Amen, Hahvahd. "

" When the abortionist throws the mutilated lifeless little body of a baby on the table or on the floor that is a lifeless body because the abortionist has just killed him or her. If it had not been a living baby the abortionist would not have had to plunge the scissors into the base of the babys skull and then suck its brain out to kill it. So this baby had life. The abortionists took it and that is murder just as assuredly as if this had been a one year old baby or a two year old or ten or a fifty year old adult. WHEN LIFE BEGINS IS THE CENTRAL ISSUE. If life had not begun this would not be murder. When anyone gives their consent or aid in this procedure they are an accessory to murder. Just because a man made law in 1973 says this is legal does not change the immorality of this atrocity. The law was changed in 1973 and it will be changed again. The truth of Gods laws never change. "

" Va-nut-ta wrote, "WHEN LIFE BEGINS IS THE CENTRAL ISSUE. If life had not begun this would not be murder."

Precisely, Jon, which is why most people don't think of abortion as murder. Most rational people don't consider it a BABY yet until it can live outside its mother's womb.

Most abortions occur within the first 8 weeks of pregnancy and do not involve the abortionist sucking out the baby's brain or puncturing its skull with scissors -- that's sensationalistic propaganda from right-to-lifers. If you saw the mass of tissue in the tray, you wouldn't even be able to identify it as related to humans, let alone a baby. Between 20 - 30% of all pregnancies end at this early stage spontaneously. As sad as that is, it's called a miscarriage, not stillbirth or infant death for a reason -- it's not a life yet. Try filing a life insurance claim for a miscarried fetus and see how far that gets. . . .

Interesting, Jon, that you completely ignored all the comments about the role men play in the prevalence of abortion and instead chose to focus on the details of a rarely-performed type of abortion. Why is that? Were you intentionally trying to distract from the question?

Men could do a lot to reduce the number of abortions if they really wanted there to be fewer abortions performed. They could remain virgins till married; they could make sure their partner knows that they will provide not only financial support for any child they father but also the physically- and emotionally-demanding, time-consuming work of raising a child; they could refrain from sex even within marriage unless they are prepared for the fact that a child could result because no birth control method short of abstinence is 100% effective; or they could take the easy way out and continue to live by a double-standard while publicly decrying abortion. "

" And where do you get the idea, Mr. Vanatta, that the doctor throws the aborted fetus on the floor? Give me a break -- this is simply more sensationalism to try to rally the opponents of abortion. Doctors don't throw medical waste of any kind on the floor, whether that's an aborted fetus, a miscarried fetus, a cancer that has been removed, a clogged artery, etc. -- the goal is to keep the rooms where medical procedures are performed as sanitary as possible. "

" Alphabet and humphreys: allow me to paraphrase your intent. *The majority of Americans, even if personally opposed to slavery, support keeping it safe and legal.* Is that what you meant? Something like that? Did I get it pretty close? "

" gringa, no, as always, you didn't get it even close at all. You're comparing apples and oranges. Slavery and abortion aren't equivalent. Embryos and fetuses aren't babies, however much you conservatives would like it to be. Selling living human beings and sentencing them to a life of servitude, beatings, etc., is not the same as terminating a pregnancy.

Please don't try to turn my words into yours. You're incapable of grasping logical, reasoned argument. It's beyond you, gringa; you should quit trying. You just don't get the point. "

" On another thread, das wrote: "The question I always have for people who are pro-life is, 'if the fetus you fought so hard to save turns out to be gay, will you still fight for its rights?' And most commonly the answer is 'no.' Such hypocrisy. Makes no sense, they fight for the fetus to be born, yet when its genetics turn out that it is homosexual, they disown them... Interesting huh? "

Excellent post. What about it? If 10% of the population is gay, that would make 4 million gay people that have been aborted. Would you welcome their ranks to our population?

Many abortions are also performed for people who are too poor to afford the children. Would you smilingly pay more money in taxes to support those children? Many were unwanted. Would you pay more taxes for foster care and child abuse prevention? An argument that is often made is that those aborted children could have been allowed to be born and placed for adoption. But are there more than 40 million homes? Would you be willing to pay for orphanages to care for the ones not placed for adoption? Abortion rates in the African-American community outpace the birth rate -- between 60 and 70 percent of pregnancies among African Americans end in abortion. We already have minority children languishing in foster care, aching for a permanent home and adoptive parents. How many more children would flood the system if abortion were made illegal?

I don't like abortion. No one I know does. But making it illegal won't stop abortions. Those who can afford it will travel to other countries where abortion is still legal to have it performed. Those who can't afford it will either have children they cannot support or will resort to back-alley butchers. Many women died there; others lost their ability to have future children -- in effect "aborting" more than just this 1 child.

Fewer abortions were performed during Bill Clinton's presidency than under George W. Bush's, despite Clinton being pro-choice and Bush being rabidly pro-life. Why is that? Because if you give people hope -- if you give them economic prosperity and a means to support their children, assistance with child care expenses to help them be able to afford working and parenting, if you put comprehensive sex education before our young people and make birth control more readily available, more people CHOOSE not to abort.

Perhaps the one thing pro-choicers and pro-lifers have in common is that they don't want abortions to happen. The means used to accomplish this goal differ drastically, though. Pro-lifers just don't get it. "

" shumphreys wrote on Sep 20, 2008 8:30 AM:
" Ms. Bennett you are entitled to your belief BUT you are not entitled to interfere in the medical practice between any other woman and her doctor. Pro-choice is about keeping medical decisions between the parties directly involved, who have a personal stake in the issue. "
"The parties directly involved, who have a personal stake in the issue" what a lie. The father, whom makes up half of the child's DNA, has no choice in the matter.

shumphreys wrote on Sep 20, 2008 5:02 PM:
" Oh and one more point. Before you site the Biblical injunction of "thous shalt not kill" remember this: we send soldiers to war and tell them it is OK to kill the enemy, in fact we tell them it is their patriotic duty. If it is OK for them to kill it is hypocritical not to allow abortions. We tell police officers it is OK to kill in their line of duty. Many of the anti-abortion folks support the death peanalty. So lets cut the hypocriscy. Either all killing is wrong or there are some instances where it is allowed and INDIVIDUALS sometimes have to make difficult decisions. "

The correct translation is "murder" not "kill" so in an abortion it is murder.

shumphreys wrote on Sep 21, 2008 8:15 AM:
not the abstinance only BS that Christian fundamentalists like yourself force on others.

100% no pregnancy rate, 100% no disease rate, pretty good results.

Please get your lies, I mean facts straight before blurting them out. Thank you "

" To jrhendron you should never call someone else a liar without getting your facts straight first. Abstinance only does not work. Teen pregnancies have risen for the first time since 1991. That is since the Abstinance only programs went into affect. Check your definition, murder can be defined as to kill a human intentionally, so kill or murder there is no difference whether a policeman does the job or a soldier or the legal system. That is if you insist on the absolute TRUTH/authority of the Bible as your justification for doing these things. The facts are human beings often have to make difficult decisions. The compassion that Jesus talks about and Buddha and Lao Tzu, the Kingdom of God, is about helping women in their time of crises with factual not biased information, services and support whatever choice they make. "

" 48% of all abortions occur after the 9th week of pregnancy; 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

Even at 8 weeks, the fetus is much more than a "mass of tissue in the tray." At this time, the unborn child has fingers and toes--though very small, it is obviously human. Using a dehumanizing term such as "medical waste" in referring to the aborted human being is no more appropriate than using that label for a six-year-old child who has died after a surgical procedure.

Small size and an early developmental stage do not make the fetus any less human. "

" No one has responded to my points about men's behavior as it affects abortion. Wonder why that is. . . .

Also, jrhendren, yes abstinence is 100% effective in preventing pregnancy (not really STD's, though, because many taking abstinence pledges still engage in oral sex, which does transmit disease). But eventually people will have sex -- even within the confines of marriage. Married people face unplanned/unwanted pregnancies too; abortion isn't just an issue of the unmarried. What do you do if you are married, your birth control fails leading to an unplanned pregancy, and you can't keep food on the table as it is, let alone with another mouth to feed? I don't see many married people in a situation like this placing the child for adoption. Many turn to abortion as the most moral thing they can do, to keep the rest of their children from starving. "

" jrhendren you are absolutely right when you say that abstinence has 100% no pregnancy rate and 100% no STD rate.

HOWEVER...if you honestly think that teens aren't going to be tempted you're dumb. keep the abstinence idea in the churches and the FACTS in the schools. you want to teach your kids that sex should be saved for marriage...GREAT!! what harm is there in them learning about the different kinds of STDs and in the effectiveness of condoms?

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. if you taught your kids right at home, they aren't going to run out and have sex just because they took a sex-ed class at school. the parents who are afraid of their children learning such things at school must not have any faith in their parenting ability. "

" Hahvahd wrote on Sep 22, 2008 7:12 PM:
" gringa, Let's see. An abortion is provided by a medical doctor in a medical setting using medical implements. Sounds like medical care to me."

So is assisted suicide. Didn't Kevorkian do like 8yrs for helping someone kill themselves. That person wanted to die. The unborn children probably do not. But, then again, they don't get to choose. "

" JUST A QUICK QUESTION: then i'll stay out of the fray.

why aren't the "christians" picketing, boycotting, firebombing fertility clinics?

you all seem to agree that life begins at conception....but you say nothing about the unused embryos that are flushed down the sewers..????

you are all as hypocritical as george bush and cronies. "we can't support a woman's right to choose, that would be condoning murder" "you can't use those embryos for research, that would be destroying human life"......but oh you can flush them down the sewer, THAT'S different.

carry on... "

" VTucker, you must be looking at pro-life propoganda photos, because in all of the pictures I've seen, at 8 weeks the embryo (not called a fetus until after 8 weeks) looks like a cross between an alien, a dinosaur, and a fish. Not human-looking. I've seen some sketches on right-to-life sites that try to make the embryo look like a shrunken-down baby-doll, but they're not accurate.

Also, what is the source of your statistics? The most recent data I've found from the American Medical Association indicates that since the approval of the so-called "abortion-pill," 64% of all willful termination of pregnancy occurs at or before 8 weeks, when the developing human is still labeled an embryo, not a fetus. At this stage, the embryo is 1/6 of an inch long or smaller. Hard to see those fingers and toes at this stage.

You are right that it was insensitive to label an embryo or fetus as "medical waste," but my point was that Vanatta's claim that abortionists go around throwing fetuses on the floor is quite ridiculous. The rooms in which medical procedures are performed are kept meticulously clean. Doctors wouldn't throw something as benign as an amputated limb on the floor, let alone a human embryo or fetus. "

" One other unpleasant realty is that a fetus can survive outside the womb at a gestation of 24 weeks. BUT the baby if it survives, will suffer medical and mental problems for life. There has been a report of a baby surviving at 21 weeks but there is some question about the measurement of the gestation period and it may have actually been 23 weeks. All of this is at this point in time, medical advances are made daily. BUT who is looking or willing to address the consequences. Also some other unpleasant facts. There are 46 million abortions world wide. Our world can't support that many additional human beings. "

" Alphabet says (referring to a married couple murdering an unborn) *Many turn to abortion as the most moral thing they can do, to keep the rest of their children from starving*.

Holy Cow, Alphabet, ever hear of carrying to term and then putting the newborn up for adoption? That doesn't sound like starving the rest of their children to me. It sounds like the most moral thing they can do. :) "

" gringa, first of all my screen name is Hahvahd, not "alphabet." I don't even know how you arrived at that little bastardization of my name in your attempt to be cute or funny.

Second, "Holy cow" gringa, do you know how to read? I addressed the adoption issue at length in an earlier post, if you had bothered to read it. I think Susan's comment about over-population is relevant, too -- in addition to there not being enough homes for all those unwanted, aborted fetuses if they had been carried to term, our planet cannot sustain the extra population of another 46 million people per year (worldwide) and all the offspring they would in turn produce. "

" gringa, how about the "morality" of bringing children into the world that you can't afford to provide for?

My fundamentalist nut-case of a relative and his wife believe that birth control is immoral. They came to this conclusion via some sort of religious revelation 3 years ago. They have 2 teenage children from her previous marriage. She is about to give birth to her 2nd baby in 2 years. She's in her 40's. They are both unemployed and uninsured; she quit her job to be a stay-at-home mom after the first one was born 2 years ago. Not only are the taxpayers of Illinois footing the bill for the delivery of this second child, but there is also the risk of mental retardation of the baby and all the inherent extra expenses (special education, etc.) that the tax-payers will foot if that turns out to be the case. Their 2-year-old still doesn't speak, so I think there may be developmental problems there, too.

They sincerely believe that they are doing God's will, that God only creates life when He intends it to be so. They see nothing wrong with continuing to use the "rhythm" method of birth control, which is even harder to do with a woman in her 40's whose cycle starts to become irregular. In fact, they see themselves as morally superior to those who are defying God's will by using birth control. They will continue to engage in unprotected sex and will willingly accept any additional babies God chooses to bless them with, even though they can't adequately provide for these 2 and their 2 older children. They would never in a million years give up any of these children or place them for adoption.

Tell me again about morality and procreation????? "

" Hope I don't shock you, Alphabet, but I seldom read your posts, or humphreys, or ... well, let's put it this way - if one of my conservative buds posts it, I'll read it, but I find most of the lefty posts on here not worth my time. Hope you're not offended.

I can hardly believe my eyes as you and humphreys claim that the 46 million abortions per year are good for keeping world population down. Holy Cow!!!!!!!

And, hey, sorry about your sister and her so-called problems, but again, hey, snot my problem. Know what I mean? "

" gringa, again, you are reading-challenged. I never said it was my sister, and it isn't; I said a relative, not that it's your business, but it's my nephew and his wife. Remember that old adage about what happens when you assume. "

" And actually, gringa, when moral lunatics reject birth control because it is against God's will and breed children they can't afford, it IS your problem, and every other tax payer. "

" And at last we know why you make some of your assinine comments, gringa. You admit that you don't read posts unless they're from one of your fellow conservatives. If you don't have the decency to fully read the posts, then you shouldn't respond to them with criticism.

That's kind of like ol' Jack a few years ago attacking a movie he had never seen. "

" Hey alphabet,

I wouldn't have a problem with my tax dollars having your sister "fixed". Then she wouldn't have to worry about more babies she can't pay for, or birth control either. "

" Alphabet, I was just having some fun with you. Yes, I know you didn't say you were talking about your sister. My post was meant to provoke, and it certainly worked, didn't it? Of course, it's none of my business, or anyone else's, but now everyone knows you were talking about your nephew. You can call me reading-challenged all you want, but I think you know the truth. Perhaps you should learn the art of reading between the lines.

And, hey, better find a way to resolve that anger you seem to have over your sister. What's with that? "

" Gringa your racist comments (Alphabet) are pretty sick and you consider yourself a Christian? I don't think Jesus or God herself would approve. "

" Now Mr. Miller is talking about involuntary sterilization. My oh my how Christian can he get? You are a real "gem" Mr. Miller. "

" ed miller/gringa, if you could only read, you'd see that it's not my sister, but my nephew's wife, that I'm talking about.

I agree with you ed, that sterilization would be wise -- that's my whole point. But they see anything that interferes with "God's plan" as an abomination -- if they think birth control is blasphemy, why do you think they'd accept permanent birth control, or sterilization??? They believe that she'll only get pregnant if the Lord intends it, and they also believe that
God commanded all creatures to "be fruitful and multiply," so they see nothing wrong with bringing children into the world that they can't support; it's "God's will."

My question is this: how is such behavior any less immoral than having an abortion? If anything, I think that it is more immoral. But there are many on the Christian right who would agree with them and who would applaud such behavior. "

" sterilization is a whole other can of worms but i can see it's usefulness in some cases....i know 2 "women" who have 4 kids each and they're all under the age of 7. both girls are under the age of 23. i have a problem with the fact that i have to support these kids. maybe if the girls had been through a sex-ed course that taught something other than anstinence only they would have learned where babies came from. "

" OK, idiot, I'll bite. Why am I a racist? Come on, you can tell me. "

" crazy sue wrote on Sep 23, 2008 8:16 PM:

"Gringa your racist comments (Alphabet) are pretty sick and you consider yourself a Christian? I don't think Jesus or God herself would approve."

.......

Alphabet is racist?
Herself?
Give me a break!
LOL!
Bet "your" God wouldn't approve of your sappy soapbox pushy preaching, but then again....
LOL!

I know, I know.... goodness & togetherness....

One word - guise.
RALPH!
LOL! "

" Examples are everywhere where some people, should have to get a permit to reproduce. It is not cruel to anyone but the children, to be brought into bad situations, and competing with 3 or 6 + other tax deductions.

Repeat child abusers and unfit mothers, are now legaly determined not to have any more kids. Chemical sterilization, is a punishment for some male sex offenders. I don't know where the two sides are on these issues, but I agree with them. "

" Gringa since we don't know the origin of Hahvahd's name (I am sure I have misspelled it out of carelessness a few times but not intentionally) the name could be Middle Eastern, Jewish, madeup acronym, it is unwise to "make fun" of the name. Racists often "make fun" of the complicated spellings of Middle Eastern or far Eastern names as a substitute for direct racial slurs. It isn't any different than calling a muslim or arab "rag head" as has been done on these online blogs. Anyway you look at it it certainly isn't a "Christian" thing to do. Or is it, is this truly the real face of Christianity that we see with you and Mr. Miller. "

" Okay, I'll word it this way: By the end of the 8th week, the fetus is much more than a "mass of tissue in the tray." It's been about 25 years since I had a course in embryology. Anyway, my stats came from the Alan Guttmacher Institute data published in 2005--definitely no pro-life bias there. There may be later info from AGI but I couldn't find it.

Also (for whoever was discussing teaching birth control vs. abstinence) from AGI, statistics that are rather discouraging about birth control--54 percent of women who had abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use.

The information about birth control IS out there and has been for a long time. It just isn't working all that well. "

" One of the biggest contributors to abortion that no one has pointed out yet is the economy, which is one of the best reasons to vote for Obama. Many women who normally would not get abortions are incredibly broke and cannot pay for their children, so they may have gotten them for this reason. Not only that, many women cannot afford birth control pills, which are quite expensive and the males do not want to pay for them, either. If the govt. could find a way to have less expensive birth control, it would greatly reduce the number of abortions. A study just came out, stating that most of the women that have abortions are very poor. This is in direct coorelation with our economy, which used to have a large middle class, but no longer does. Also, the headline of this article, which was published on Sept. 23, 2008 is: U.S. Abortion Rate at 30-year low. "

" I have commented that birth control should be provided FREE to all people of child bearing and procreating age. Vicky your comment about failure rates shows how important EDUCATION is. You do have to use a product correctly if you want the best chance for it to work correctly. Also I have been wondering if there is any information about how many abortions any single woman gets? Is it a one time thing or do some women go back for another and another? If that is the case than Mr. Miller would be right that women do use abortion for standard birth control. If not than it would seem that abortion is used for crises situations. Which puts a different spin on the issue. I couldn't find any information in my feeble attempts to research the subject on the internet. "

" I think racist is a stretch, because I have no idea what race any of you are from, and I don't believe we can determine that from someone's logon. I understand SHumphreys that you don't agree with gringa, but going out on a limb and calling him racist because he is baiting someone is extreme. Juvenile, could fit, but racist you have no basis for. I think you are very annoyed with him and just looking for ways to prove your superiority. "

" Susan, I saw that statistic (repeat abortions) but can't remember what it is. I'll try to find it. It seems like repeat abortions happen, but the statistic isn't huge. I don't think many women would intentionally use it as birth control. I have talked with women who had abortions at clinics--it was painful and traumatic for them. Plus, it cost money they did not have. I believe women nearly always choose abortion when they feel trapped, when they feel there's no other way out. Someone compared it to an animal caught in a trap that chews off her own leg to get out. The ideal is to make abortion alternatives such as adoption workable, I believe, and as someone else commented to make it more economically feasible if a girl/woman wishes to keep her baby. "

" Actually, Susan, I was wrong about repeat abortions--according to the Guttmacher Institute, nearly half of women having abortions in the U.S. have had a previous one. Still, they didn't seem to be using abortion as birth control, since half of these women said they were using contraceptives when they became pregnant.

In many cases, women who have had multiple abortions seem unable to take hold of their own destiny, make choices which are truly beneficial to them, and break a cycle of self-abuse. Poverty is often associated with repeat abortion, also.

I do not believe abortion will ever be banned, though I would like to see it gradually phased out--perhaps by impposing hefty fines on the doctors who perform it. Meanwhile, exploring the problems that cause women to choose abortion and addressing these issues hopefully would make it less and less likely to be chosen as a solution. "

" Vicky T got the name reference right away, one of the first times I discovered this forum and started posting, when she made reference to attending "Dyuke." The name refers to Harvard University and the way some Massachusetts natives (I am one) say the name, as in "Pahk the cah at Hahvahd yahd." So no racism on gringa's part, just produces bewilderment -- why refer to "Hahvahd" as "Alphabet"? He/She is attempting to be cute or funny, but I just don't get it. "

" AllYouNeedIsLove, actually, I DID bring up the economic factors in an earlier post (a couple of them, in fact). Why do you think there were fewer abortions performed during Clinton's 8 years than during Bush's 8? The economy was much stronger.

Vicky, actually I didn't mean to play this as antagonistically as I have; some of the others had me pretty riled up, but I shouldn't have come across so nasty anyway.

I think the answer really IS in addressing the causative factors, rather than outlawing abortion. Places like the Crisis Pregnancy Center (if only they didn't try to brainwash against abortion) are great -- provide the helping hand women in dire straights need and which their families can't or won't provide. Let them know there is a place to help them get diapers, clothing, baby food (and don't stop at infancy). Help women get their education, so they can break the cycle of poverty and actually afford their children. Encourage more men to step up to the plate -- not just through state-enforced child support, but actual hands-on support in caring for their offspring. Encourage young men to give up the double standard and strive for abstinence, too, until they are married, or at the very least in a stable, long-term relationship. Encourage adoption (though I'm afraid we don't have the 1+ million homes we'd need every year to welcome all the unwanted babies).

We simply must reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies in this country -- that's something we can all agree on and work together for, whether we are pro-choice or pro-life. Abortion is NOT a good thing -- I don't know of any pro-choicers who go around saying, "Woo-hoo! Another woman had an abortion!" Vicky's analogy about the trapped animal amputating its own leg is an apt one, I believe. The woman who has an abortion loses a vital part of herself. As does the woman who places a child for adoption. As does the woman who gives birth to and keeps an unplanned child. We have to break the cycle, as best we can, of unplanned pregnancy, for all who are concerned.

I'd just like to see men take a more pro-active role in this, though, beyond just advocating for abortion to be banned. They share half the responsibility for unintended pregnancies, so I'd like to see them share the burdensome decisions involved instead of it all falling on the shoulders of the woman. "

" Soapbox Sue's superiority strikes again!

ahahahahahahaha
LMAO!

Good post, Beaches! "

" I think part of the problem of abortion comes from our instant-gratification society. And not just as it relates to babies being conceived because people wouldn't delay their sexual gratification. I think that some women choose abortion because it seems like the less complicated solution, only to discover that it wasn't an easy answer, either.

Personal responsibility is also an issue, though as I've said earlier, I think our society is wrong to place a disproportionate amount of that responsibility on the shoulders of the pregnant woman. Both men and women need to behave with greater honor; both have to be ready to make choices that require sacrifice. We need to be willing to sacrifice for our loved ones, too -- are you willing to take in your unmarried daughter or sister or cousin or niece if she is pregnant? Are you willing to help her provide shelter, food, clothing, and above all patience and love for her baby, and the toddler and child and adolescent and teenager he or she will grow to become? If not, you shouldn't condemn her for having an abortion.

People make mistakes, and when they do, they need compassion and forgiveness and sometimes they need help from us in order to do the "right" thing. If we aren't willing to put up, we should shut up about this issue.

It greatly distresses me that some (not all) of the same people who scream the most loudly against abortion are the ones who also scream the most loudly about things like food stamps, subsidized housing, assistance with child care costs, etc. If we are only willing to stand up for that child while it's still in the womb, we aren't taking much of a stand. Maybe if more women felt like they weren't alone, that they had places to turn to once their babies are born, they would choose life for their unborn children. "

" Hahvahd - I liked your last post - I agree that abortion should never be a birth control method - and people need to be responsible for their actions. If only it were that easy. "

" vtucker says...The information about birth control IS out there and has been for a long time. It just isn't working all that well.

since it's not working, lets try something new. lets teach abstinence only. lets make premarital sex a crime, and abortion illegal. on top of all that, lets chemically sterilize (temporarily of course) everyone at birth. THEN when people get married, we'll make them take parenting classes and apply for a reproduction license from the government. if the government decides you will make fit parents they will allow you to be "unsterilized" for a month so you can become pregnant. after that, you're right back on the program and if you wish to add to your family you have to go through the process all over again to ensure that you can support your (hopefully) growing family.

problem solved. no more teenage parents...no more people on welfare...no more abortions. "

" I had a friend in the military with a complicated name. We all called him alphabet because no one could pronounce it. He didn't think it was racist and it wasn't meant that way. I don't know if this Hahvhad is a name or made up crap and I don't care. Quit taking offense at everything. Oh, I forgot, you are a liberal and it's ingrained in your being. "

" Hahvahd, my husband (whom I met at "Dyuke") is from Connecticut. His family has a dialect that is similar to that of people from Massachusetts. We lived in the Northeast (between Albany and Catskill, NY) for 11 years....Many trips along the Mass Pike to and from Connecticut. I wouldn't mind being back in the Northeast for the next few weeks as the foliage changes--as long as I get out before the snow starts flying.

When it comes to the abortion problem, I also believe personal responsibility is a huge issue. But how do you teach something in school that needs to be learned early on in the home?

You've brought up the role of the man several times. This reminds me of discussions I've had with Susan about violence in society. I can get a glimpse of how deeply seated and enmeshed our social problems are but have no idea how to go about "fixing" them. What I know is there has to be some way of having life for both mother and her unborn--one ought not be pit against the other.

I know you, Susan, and others are against the abstinence curricula, but I saw one that was once used in the Charleston and appreciated its emphasis on personal value and self esteem. Even when I went to school, girls would sacrifice not only their interests but in essence who they were just to keep a boy. Times have not changed. I recently witnessed a girl as she stood quietly while her boyfriend called her demeaning names. She started to walk away but returned when the boy told her, If you walk away, we're through. She returned to him, and they kissed.

This, I'm thinking, is a self-esteem issue. Education in the mechanics of birth control is not going to address it. I believe kids in high school do learn about birth control; I'll have to ask my daughter about that once she takes her Health class. But learning about it is not going to cause them to develop the responsibility to use birth control.

pj1983, I don't think I'd like to live under the type of government you're describing! "

" First Beaches "Gringa" is feminine in gender. Gringo is a Spanish term for white person. Mr. Miller name calling whether intentionally racist, or to be "cute", or to be racist without appearing racist, is childish, and can get someone in serious trouble down the road. It is always prudent to err on the side of caution.It is still "unChristian" for those of you who consider your selves Christians. "

" Susan,

"Gringa" is actually an offensive slang word used for white women visiting a Hispanic country. On here, it is a screen name. That's all. I figured "Hahvahd" was a play on the pronunciation of "Harvard", but I picked up on Gringa's use of "alphabet" for a confusing name as I mentioned in my earlier post. Quit trying to make something out of nothing. "

" I read an interesting editorial in my hometown newspaper about John McCain's plan for healthcare:

http://www.wvgazette.com/Opinion/Editorials/200809230677

If McCain wins this election and his plans become reality, I suspect abortions will increase. One fact that seemed clear from the Guttmacher Institute data was that poorer women are more likely to seek abortions. With a McCain administration, there are going to be more people who simply cannot afford the healthcare they need and who will feel they have no other choice than to abort their pregnancies.

How ironic that McCain is viewed as the "pro-life candidate." Once, when I told someone I could not vote for McCain, this individual questioned my Christian commitment. It is unfortunate that people have created these "pro-life" and "pro-choice" labels--this labeling results in people polarizing and focusing upon their differences. They also allow people to be exploited by politicians. I know people who would never have voted Republican but did so because of an "I'm pro-life" carrot dangled in front of them.

Time, energy, and money are spent by pro-life and pro-choice groups fighting each other--these could better be spent solving the problems of unwanted pregnancy and abortions. "

" vtucker, i think you've hit the nail on the head. the best tool for keeping kids from having unprotected, pre-marital sex isn't abstinence training or even sex-ed classes. it's self esteem.

i'm 25 (not too far removed from teen today so i still remember what it was like) our sex ed at school was in 3 stages. in 5th grade it focused on the body's changes (puberty) in 7th it focused more around condoms and diseases and such then in 10th grade it focused on self-esteem and self-worth. (personally i think those last two steps were backward) but by the time i hit high school, the school didn't have the money for the program anymore and it had been taken over by volunteers from the local churches.

i'm not sure if one program works better than the other. personally i think the BEST form of sex-ed should come from the home. i had an open and honest relationship with my mother. our "sex talks" started when i was about 8. it started with how my body was going to change and progressed to sex and the consequences and most importantly that it was a personal choice that i shouldn't make under pressure or for anyone but myself. there wasn't anything i was afraid to ask my mom. i was also raised in the catholic church and i knew their stance on the subject as well. my parent's position on the subject was to wait until it was with someone special. i knew they wouldn't look down on me if i chose to have sex before marriage. it wasn't their choice, but i knew they would support me (we're talking if i'd done it at 17 or 18, not 15)

the most important part of my sex "education", though was the relationship with my mom. i knew that i could ask her anything and i would get an honest answer. kids shouldn't feel like their parents are looking down on them and kids shouldn't be afraid to go to their parents for help. if those 16 and 17 year olds out there that are getting pregnant knew they could go to someone for help beforeit's too late there probably wouldn't be as many of them getting pregnant. "

" Vicky so often the tactics people choose are counter productive, actually harming/keeping them from reaching their goals. Thanks for checking on those figures about number of abortions per woman. Poverty, or near poverty, is an endless cycle at the root of many problems. Poverty is caused by poor Educational opportunities and poverty keeps people from getting an Education. Poverty affects diet which affects birth weight of babies and maternal health which in turn affects..... I get dizzy thinking about it. "

" VTucker, this time of year, I really get homesick for the foliage and a huge steaming bowl of "real" chowdah, the kind you can't get within 1000 miles of here. . . .

You're so right about the polarization and its counterproductive effects. So many people have such a "no compromise" stance on this issue that they fail to realize there IS common ground to be found -- reducing the number of abortions. We can do that through legislation, but still better would be to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies.

Self esteem is a huge key to this. So many young girls (and not-so-young ones, too), are so desperate to feel loved that they jump into bed right away, even if they want/need something different from a partner who may be only after casual sex.

I'm with you in that I don't know how to solve these deeply-seated social problems. They're easy to analyze, but tough to solve.

It's nice to have civil discourse, though. My Irish temper gets the better of me WAY too often, and I say some ugly things sometimes just to get a rise out of others. Hope I didn't offend too much. "

" Hahvahd says...Self esteem is a huge key to this. So many young girls (and not-so-young ones, too), are so desperate to feel loved that they jump into bed right away, even if they want/need something different from a partner who may be only after casual sex.

why are we all focusing on young GIRLS? lets assume for a minute that girls are jumping into beds left and right because of their need to feel loved and accepted...someone is making them feel that need, right? so who has convinced the boys that having sex make them men?

we don't need to forget about the guys, teenage girls aren't getting themselves pregnant "

" pj, I mentioned males needing to take greater responsibility for pregancy/abortion in at least 4 different posts on this thread. . . . "

" pj, actually I mentioned boys/men's role in this on 6 different post. Nobody else was commenting on it, so I went another direction. . . . "

" i realize that yankee, i (unlike some people) actually do read the posts before i post a comment. you, however were referring to the males stepping up AFTER conception. i was talking about before. "

" Pj83 Self-Esteem is at the root of many of our human problems and failures--
1.Addictive behaviors, drug and alcohol abuse, shopping and credit card abuse (buying more and more things, having more than your friends, having the latest neatest coolest things)
2. Health behaviors, health and weight problems, lack of exercise, diet,
3. Abusive behaviors, bullying, mental and physical abuse of others, name calling as a bullying tactic, self-inflicted abuse
The problem with self-esteem is that few understand what it is or how to get it and consequently spend a life time looking for it in all the wrong places (which is often why teens have sex). Self-esteem doesn't come from receiving Gold stars on report cards it comes from EARNING the Gold star on the report card. Self-esteem doesn't come from pep-rallys, pep-talks, it comes from DOING the hard work needed to win games and succeed in projects at work. Self-esteem is often confused with self-Love which is the extreme form, abusive form called Narcisscism. Self-esteem is really about SELF-RESPECT. When you learn to respect your self you can than have respect/compassion for others. You can respect other people's religious choices without feeling that your own choice is threatened. You can have empathy and compassion for those that are suffering because you understand where that suffering comes from, you don't need to pass judgment, be accusatory, or fix blame. Self-esteem is the key to a happy, healthy life, if it is actually self-respect and not self-love. "

" pj, what would you call the comments I made about encouraging abstinence in our sons, not just our daughters? What would you call my comments about men not rushing into sex, but being in a long-term, committed relationship, if not encouraging male responsibility BEFORE conception. Call me Yankee all you want, but for someone who just bragged that she actually reads the posts before commenting, you missed the boat on this one. "

" Hahvahd, I know my husband misses his seafood. His family has lived in North Stonington, CT and a number of places in Rhode Island. We used to enjoy taking the New London ferry to Fishers Island and spending vacation time there with colleagues of his. But what's with those r's? You all drop them from words that have them and insert them into words that don't, like "Drawr me a picture." Husband couldn't explain....

The little research I've done on abortion statistics suggests to me that all of our social issues mesh together. Poverty is at the root of so many problems, as Susan commented. With poverty comes hopelessness, and hopelessness perpetuates poverty.

In my home state of WV, the suicide rate among young adults is nearly twice the national average. This is predominantly a rural problem, where you have poverty, substance abuse, violence, and few opportunities.

Having educational opportunity is important, but I believe that having hope for change is even more important. Hopelessness causes people to think nothing can ever change, so why bother going to school, staying away from drugs, etc. Why put off relationships, making babies, making a quick (illegal) buck, etc. if nothing is ever going to change?

I think that intervention needs to occur in this area before social change (beyond the cosmetic) can take place. In my opinion, this is where people of faith can intervene. They can show how faith has given them hope, motivation and strength to move beyond their circumstances and break free from the cycle of poverty. Not preaching and Bible-thumping, but involvement, teaching, and leadership. This, in addition to improving education and social service programs, could make a real difference. "

" i'm sorry yankee, your posts are so long that it's hard for me to pick out the one sentence where you actually mention boy's self esteem and abstinence. i wasn't talking about ALL your previous posts, i was talking about your ONE specific post (you know, the one i quoted?)(and i only call you yankee because it pains me to intentionally mistype harvard) "

" Folks this is where a substantive discussion can lead, to the root of a problem, when you get away from the judgmental, self-rightous posturing of a few fundamentalists. Vicky I agree religious groups can be a part of the solution,but only one part. I also firmly believe that people should be able to get help without having to listen to a religious message which is why I object to Bush's faith based initiatives program. Self-esteem issues and encouragement (hopefulness) can come through non-religious programs as well as religious ones. "

" pj, call this 1 sentence on abstinence and the responsibility of males if you want to. Whatever. As I said, I tried to get a conversation going regarding sex and its consequences as the responsibility of both genders. No one bit.

I posted on 9/22 at 6:19 p.m. "I wonder how many parents who stress abstinence are the parents of sons. Are you really telling your boys to wait to have sex until they're 25 or 30 and settle down to marry, or is that advice only intended for your daughters?

I think too many men have a cavalier attitude about sex. The one-night stand is socially acceptable for them, and they aren't close enough to the woman they slept with to even know if pregnancy resulted or if the woman who pleasured them is left wrestling with a difficult decision.

Too many on the pro-life side are perfectly willing to live by a double-standard in which an unmarried man can "sow his wild oats," but a woman is expected to remain chaste, never lose physical control or cross a line, and if she somehow does, she's scum of the earth if she aborts the child she can't afford to feed, or should be forced go through the public humiliation of a pregnancy and giving the child up for adoption. "She should have thought of that before she chose to have sex," they moralize. What about the men who have sex with these women? Where are their obligations??"

and this on 9/22 at 8:54 p.m.: "Men could do a lot to reduce the number of abortions if they really wanted there to be fewer abortions performed. They could remain virgins till married; they could make sure their partner knows that they will provide not only financial support for any child they father but also the physically- and emotionally-demanding, time-consuming work of raising a child; they could refrain from sex even within marriage unless they are prepared for the fact that a child could result because no birth control method short of abstinence is 100% effective; or they could take the easy way out and continue to live by a double-standard while publicly decrying abortion. " "

" Vicky, I don't know why northeasterners say things the way we do; we just do.

Ralph Waldo Emerson's wife was named Lydia. He got so tired of hearing folks around Boston call her Lydiar that he added an n to her name and people stared calling her Lydian. (No one knows for sure what she thought about it, but she went along with it so must have approved.)

It's like JFK adding the R to Cuba -- I wonder if it annoyed Castro so much it helped lead to the Cubar Missile Crisis. . . .

I think you're on the money when it comes to tackling the root issues. Until we do, we're just rearranging deck furniture on the Titanic. "

" Vicky, BTW, I'm from the North Shore (that's Nahth Shah in New-England-speak), the fishing town of Gloucester. "

" Vanatta:"I keep telling you the Bible has the answer and the solution for every problem. "

So please quote for us the way out of
our present financial situation, book,
chapter and verse please "

" Ann was age 45 and she had three medical men tell her to abort, the children probably have downs syndrome and other problems. ANN never listed.
THE baby was normal, has been normal, not in law problems, A student in high school and college, and has night job.
He has worked three years in same job.
He helps his mother on bills. His father a career criminal and not been in his life nor helped his mother nor him. He used his father as example how not to be. The mother told him of good things about his father and as he grewup he knew his Dad was a deadbeat.
The son knows how to treat the girls he dates and is a gentleman to the retired.
They are a family and his mom on social security and with his job they pay for college. I look at them and wonder HOW MANY SUCH CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ABORTED?
I don't side with either issue. But I wonder just the same. I do not JUDGE NO ONE,,,,,that be up to the ALMIGHTY. "

" Interference by third parties is IMMORAL. "

Is the baby a third party?

At less than 2 weeks, I heard my sons heartbeat, which means he had a heart, which means he had a body, which means he had a brain. Not a human being yet? I think not. "

" Mama says wrote on Sep 27, 2008 12:46 AM:

I don't side with either issue.""""


you just did. "