" Wow, so those bloated retirement checks are coming home to roost....I often thought that allowing municipal employees to retire after only 20 years would catch up with us someday, and it looks like it's right around the corner. Municipal employees shouldn't get breaks that the rest of society doesn't get. Granting a pension after only 20 years is a criminal act perpetrated on the tax payers. Municipal workers should have to work up until retirement age like everyone else.

Perhaps a justification for firemen and police officers might be appropriate, but not for those who spend a great deal of their time riding around in city owned vehicles. "

" Finally, someone tells it like it is!! I'm proud of you, Brian. This is probably the last audit you'll ever be allowed to do, but what a great last hurrah!

Did Bart Owen happen to mention exactly how it is the firefighters can increase revenue for the city???

Also, did Bart Owen say why it is that police and fire folks retire 10 to 15 years earlier than other folks? Could it be because at 20 years, they qualify for full pension? Hmmm, maybe. "

" Can't Preston Owen get Bart Owen the city specific information they want?

Its good we will be so TIF obligated for the next twenty some years. By then, we won't have this issue. Didn't they eliminate benefits for new employees? Once the family and friends rotate out and get their fifteen years to retire in, it won't be an issue.

Perhaps if pension is the bulk of the expense. Changes focused on reality need to be made. Fully staff police and fire, limiting 12 hr shifts. Raise full pension qualifying retirement to 65 or 72, like most everyone elses is. They increase it while working, and it just draws interest, when they stop. Same for all city pensions. Retiring at 35,45, or 50 for a few years in a city job, is a bit excessive. If the city knew how to grow, and the money was there, pretend we are a huge complex mecca all they want. Reality is property taxes are going to drop. Housing values are down. Less money is going to be comming in now for a while. "

" Well here we go again. Firefighters and police officers retire earlier because of the restrictions put on under the qualifications of these jobs. Do you really want a 60yr old man trying to carry someone out of a burning building and have a heart attack? I would hope not. Experts say, "Approximately 110 firefighters die each year in the U.S. while performing their duty and being a firefighter will subtract about 5 years from your average life expectancy and it will never make you wealthy." If cigarette second hand smoke is bad for you guess how bad, smoke from a fire can be. We have the same "know it alls" on here that have never taken one class, but sit on there butts and tell everyone how it is. We get the same old "they are using public vehicles", so what. The city counci members are the ones screwing up this city not the firefighters and police. In fact, they were the only municipalities that mentioned cuts and trying to help. Didn't see anything from our street department, water department, or council members. Some of our firefighters work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the bills, because they can't afford just there fire salaries. As I have said before, I bet you would not care where they were eating, or how much they made if you needed them to save your butt, and yes they will be there to save it, day or night. Twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. No matter what the weather is like, they will respond to your emergency. You can of course always run for public office, since you have all the "answers". There is however, no reason for other municipalities to have such low retirement ages. "

" The fire department's idea for increasing revenues can only come from one source, ambulance service. And to get the really big revenue they are talking about they would have to get into ambulance service completely. So are we ready to put two private companies, one of which has been here in Mattoon for decades, out of business so the fire department can continue to avoid facing the reality that they cost too much? The Charleston fire department runs the ambulance service in their town and there are no private ambulance services in Charleston. By the way, Charleston has fewer firefighters than Mattoon, even though they run a full ambulance service and cover the big buildings at EIU! "

" Unfortunatley Herb did not report it quite correctly. Brian Daniell didn't mention the "other city retirees." The City only levys property taxes for the Police Pension and Fire Pension. The IMRF (Illinois Municipal Retirement Fund, that covers all other employees) is not levied for. The IMRF pension fund is 92% funded and is in good shape, the Police Pension fund is 56% funded and the Fire Pension fund is 59% funded.

Additionally, in 2005 The Police and Fire Pension funds each hired Tepfer Consulting Group, LTD. An outside indipendent actuary. The pension funds, the City and the unions each have those reports and they are not on statewide averages, but our actual funds. Those reports are public records and are available if anyone wants to see them.

As alwasy, if you have questions my phone number is 258-7932. "

" Did Schilling already forget the actuary results? He was the big pusher behind it last time and was heartbroke when the study came back and said the police/fire pensions were in good shape. Does he think it will actually change that much in two short years? I'm all for the pensions being kept in check, but what is the city supposed to do about it if Prestons comments are correct about the state laws. Seems like Schilling keeps hammering on the police and fire when he should take his argument to Springfield. "

" Myles you do not know what you are talking about. The actuary said the funds were in worst shape than the state says and it concluded the City should be paying more that it is (and more than it can afford to). This problem did not happen in the last two years, it has happened over the last 15 year and nobody is willing to listen to what need to be done to fix it.

Commissioner Schilling has been talking about reducing the number of firefights as a way to address this problem and he has been doing so for way longer than the last two years. "

" Preston, Why is it the Council never talks about reducing the Police Department? Their pension is less funded than the firefighters pension, not by much but it is only 56% funded (by your own figures).

Firefighters and Police Officers get a full pension (75% of salary) after 20-years of service. These numbers are set by the State of Illinois. However they can not draw that pension until they are 50-years old. Again conditions set by the State, The fact there are less police officers on pension is mainly due to the fact more police officers quit Mattoon to take other law enforcement jobs long before they have worked for the required 20-years than firefighters.

If the City Council and their advisors (such as the City Attorney) would try to increase the City's revenues rather than to give them away we might not be in quite as bad condition. Maybe the pension funds can apply for a TIF loan?

Harry Potter, As usual the J/G and Preston are only quoting figures that support their argument not the complete figures. IMRF employees can not draw a pension any earlier than "everyone else." However including that information in their statements would not strengthen their goal of laying off personnel.

Mike P, You can rest assured Preston and Bart exchage all sorts of information. LOL

I am willing to bet that even laying off half of the fire and police departments will not solve Mattoon's money problems. It would only give the Council more money to give away or to fix Mr. Wortman's mistakes. No advantage here for the citizens. "

" My bad Preston, thanks for the correction and your hard work. It is just hard to listen to anything Schilling has to say, as it always seems he has an axe to grind with the police/fire pensions.

I will listen to what it would take to fix it.

Also, I did not think that the police/fire could retire after 20 years with 70%, as stated above. Is that correct? "

" I know that commissioner schilling is worried about the City finances and believes we have too many firefighters.

I don't think I could give you my opinion on the full steps necessary to fix the problem in this forum. I would welcome the opportunity to sit down and go over the problem with you. My quick answer is that we eihter have to raise revenues or cut expenses. But as with everything in life, that is much harder than it sounds.

Full retirement is 50% of the final rate of earnings (FRE) after 20 years of service. Maximum is 75% of the FRE after 30 years of service.

For a discussion of the downstate fire and police pensions funds please see the following link.
http://www.iml.org/cnt/docs/FiscalAnalysis.pdf "

" this is happening all over the state. the reason the pensions are only half funded is because the city's are not putting in what they are required to. they have several years to get these pensions fully funded. in the mean time they are pushing to get the state constitution rewritten. they are also trying to make it look like the firefighters fault. so its the municipalities fault. and tell everyone NOT to vote for the Illinois constitution to be rewritten!! "

" Old Grumpy, the Council (during this years budget process) has discussed reducing both fire and police numbers. As a matter of fact the council reduced the number of police officers this year by one. I believe that at one time the Police Department had 54 sworn officers and the Fire Department had 41 firefighters. Today the police department has 41 and the fire department has 38.

But those numbers don't matter, what matters is how many we should have and how much the taxpayers can afford. We can (and do) have one the finest police and fire departments in Illinois, the question is can we financialy support that and what other sacrifices are we making to have those departments. That is a question the counci has to answer.

The IMRF is not an issue our fund is 92% funded and that is because the fund has much less generous benefits and IMRF emplyees must work lnger to get those benefits. One of the problems is that the City has been reducing IMRF employees (public works) and not addressing the other staffing issues.

Believe me Bart and I do not see eye to eye on this issue so we don't discuss it over thanksgiving dinner. "

" Take Ron Scott for instance, a person can work as a plice officer for 20 years in the city of Mattoon, retire at 41, get a pension, be the sherif for awhile, retire from that job and get a pension and then work at the courthouse for good money. Somrthing is not quite right there. "

" Do you really want a 60yr old man trying to carry someone out of a burning building and have a heart attack?

Ever hear of Jack Lelanne "

" Additionally, in 2005 The Police and Fire Pension funds each hired Tepfer Consulting Group, LTD. An outside indipendent actuary.

And how much did that cost and what changes have been made because of it? "

" Preston, thank you for pointing out my mistake. 75% after thirty years makes more sense that after just 20 years.

It still seems the City is blaming the pensions for all of its money problems. It is always easier to blame someone else than to admit the Council has done a very poor job taking care of the taxpayers money. "

" Amen Old Grumpy!!!! Take a closer look at the mangement level in the city. Top heavy there and cut to the bone on employees!!! We have city supervisors that don't live in the city limits, have a vehicle and all the gas they want, don't even show up for work half of the time, while some take care of personal business on city time!!! Some of the clerical workers in the city make more than the men actually out in the elements everyday!!!! We the citizens of this town are paying the wages of these dead beats!!! Bad managment is a big problem here! Where are the commisioners? What are they doing to stop the waste in the city? I agree with Mr. Schilling. For a city the size of Mattoon, we are top heavy in both police and fire departments. Did we really need that fancy new firetruck? I didn't know there were that many high rise buildings in Mattoon!!!
What we really need is a Sarah Palin type of mayor that will oust the good ole' boy system and put growth back in the city of Mattoon!!!! "

" It seems obvious that any occupation offering a 20-year-and-out or 30-year-and-out pension is unrealistic in today's economy. It's simply unaffordable.

It also seems obvious that the public has a right to expect a high degree of physical fitness from anyone serving the public as an officer of the law or as a firefighter, regardless of age. These are very physically demanding careers, but the age of an officer or firefighter is not the benchmark of an individual's ability to serve. Physical fittness is the benchmark, whether we're talking about a 25 year old or a 65 year old.

We need to change the way we think of age and the ability to serve. "

" What we really need is a Sarah Palin type of mayor that will oust the good ole' boy system and put growth back in the city of Mattoon!!!!


You are aware that Palin left that little burg 22 million dollars in debt aren't you, midwest girl? And just like the good ole' boys are pushing for a convention center, Palin pushed for and got money pit of a sports complex that left that little town in serious debt too.

You might want to rethink that Palin like idea. LOL! "

" Stop the presses, gringa and I actually agree on something!

gringa wrote on Sep 19, 2008 11:06 AM:

" It seems obvious that any occupation offering a 20-year-and-out or 30-year-and-out pension is unrealistic in today's economy. It's simply unaffordable. "

" Preston, those of us who picked a fight with one of the Owen boys during school found out a cold hard fact, the Owen boys stick together. Just like the old saying, "Blood is thicker than water." When the layoffs start rest assured they will be engineered so no Owens are laid off. "

" I think that sometimes that little green eyed monster enters into these blogs. Many private employer pensions require no contribution by the employee so it is hard to compare the pension types. Lets look at the city pensions another way. Lets say you go to work for an employer who has a great 401k program. You contribute 5% of your gross income and your employer matches that amount over twenty or thirty years and the contributions are placed in secure investments which are managed under strict Illinois State Statutes. Why then would you not retire when the return is there? This is kind of how the Water, Street and Sewer workers pension works. The Fire pension has some local control that is not allowed in the rest of the city pensions. Both types of pension benefits are figured partly from the wages of the last few years you work. Lets say you work under the fire pension and in the last few years you get a promotion plus an artificial spike in wages which makes it look like you invested more than you did. Then to compound the problem the employer didn't pay in the 5 percent but only 2 or 3 percent over the years. Your pension plan could become troubled with more money going out and less money coming in. I understand the local rules have been changed to stop this practice. But remember that management did the under funding and allowed the spikes. Don't blame the individual firemen for mismanagement that came from the top.
I don't know how many firemen a town like Mattoon needs but I do know I don't want a second, third or fourth rate fire department when their job is protecting the public. We should make sure we don't find out we have too few firemen when we need them and they are not there. It would be difficult to compare them to a business because they operate at a 100% loss as they are intended to do.
I wonder what this auditor had to say about Mattoon fronting 2 million for the train depot renovation when the State funds are not a sure thing. Or Co-signing a 3.5 million loan for Future Gen when it hinges on a presidential election at best which is polled at 50/50. No bank in it's right mind would lend money to a company who is selling it's assets for liquidity in the first place, let alone under these circumstances. Mattoon's financial problems extend beyond the fire pensions. We need to pay more attention to the man behind the curtain who does the spin doctoring than the auditor he apparently pays to pick which issues to announce to the public. "

" invicta wrote on Sep 19, 2008 4:53 PM:

" I think that sometimes that little green eyed monster enters into these blogs.

Come on now invicta, no one is jealous of the city employees. What people are saying is that it is fundamentally wrong for someone to get to retire with such a high percentage of the last wage after only 20 years. I certainly don't blame the employees who take advantage of this situation.

Private industry is struggling under the weight of the cost of pensions, and I can only imagine what it be like for them if them had to meet the type of pension costs that municipalities are required to do. "

" You are leaving out that firefighters don't pay into social security. Their pensions are all they have after retirement unless they work another job that pays social security. The military also has a 20 and out with a pension that nobody is complaigning about. That fact is, it's the city's fault for not putting the money into the pension fund. "

" Are you seriously trying to compare working on the street or water department with serving in the military for, say 20 years or more? "

" Thing and Harry Potter:
Did you all miss the part I said about employee contributions. Of course pensions and social security are better if you pay into them than private company owned pensions where employees don't contribute. Investment and return? I think Firemen are paid well and are worth every penny. They get rank pay and hazardous duty pay and as "Thing" said, they don't pay into Social Security. That means they get to keep more money for 20 (or more years) than other city employees or private sector employees. If they choose to spend that money instead of investing it, all they will have left is retirement income. It is the old story of the Ant and the Cricket. I don't envy them because they get more while working and I don't pity them if they dance until the frost comes and don't have as much to fall back on. And just for everyone's information, the sewer department job is the most dangerous occupation due to engulfment (ick) and asphyxiation (Whew!). ;o) "

" Harry Potter, Public Works employees must work 35 years to recieve a full pension. You are wrong as usual! "

" harry potter, yes i am. there are many jobs in the military that can be compaired to cilivan jobs. as far as being a infantary solider, no, no compairson,I was one. however, the military has clerks, cooks, police, lawers, doctors just like the cilivan world. "

" Who said anything about a FULL pension? Learn to read! "

" I wasn't aware that the Mattoon city workers spent time overseas, were put in the line of fire, separated from their families for months at a time, and had to pack up and move every few years. Thanks for clearing that up.

And for our friend, invicta, I'm sure sewer gas compares to land mines, enemy fire, running into a building to rescue a child or facing down an armed perpitrator. Come on now.

And the fable of the ant and the cricket? That might have been a bit of a stretch, even for you.

I don't think your winning many converts to your side on the bloated pension program argument, and perhaps you should stick to where you have some support, such as the mowing at the old lake. Heck, even I agree with you on that one. LOL! "

" Harry,
We all agree that infantry are in a separate category. Fire and police are not. If you want to know how dangerous different jobs are, call Judy Winn at City Hall and ask her for the rates the city pays for workers compensation insurance for various job categories. You will find that street, water, and sewer workers cost more to insure because those jobs are statistically proven to be more dangerous than both fire and police. "

" Hey Question, You obviously do not know that Public Works comprise the Water, Sewer and Street Departments.Their pension is totally different than Police and Fire pensions.Public Works employees do NOT get, and I quote "such a high percentage of their last wage" after 20 years. Get your facts straight before you pretend to be an authority! "

" I think fables fit pretty well. There are a lot of grasshoppers watching the ants gather grain. Aesop left out that the grasshopper got to draw more money sooner than even the ants who use a simple IRA can.

Nurses work at the hospital for thirty years, and only have social security and medicare to retire on. A nurse not having retirement insurance, is one more grasshopper story. Perpetuated by a local benefactor grasshopper. Philanthropy has many faces, some give back a little, while prospering because of hundreds of others, maintaining mostly monopolized services, and offering healthcare in retirement in return for years of service, is not a focus they see profitable.

Government allows a chosen few to make the public be responsible for for the rest of their lives, for doing a job they applied for, or ran for office in, for a set number of years. If the city was capable of doing their job, it would not be a big deal, as long as the bills get paid with money in hand, they can be pretty fivolous with it, and little fuss or consequense will come of it.

Mattoon is broke, and hawking or leveling, every possible asset, in a time when assets will be tied to credit more closely from now on. Charleston spent 400k, and tif checked another, to face lift city hall. Between the two of them it is safe to say focus is extremely lacking on the taxpayers interests.

It is not a sudden revelation, but one the papers interest wanes in and out on, when local news is slow or is forced to break. Its been going on for years. We even get Our Views, tooting the horns of our cities leaders magnificence, between public outrages.

Today they jumped on the Depot band wagon, heralding its virtues. Personally I would hold that thought, for actual progress to begin in deed, rather than now the possibility of progress is closer, than before they got off their duffs. Since the question, why suddeny now, hasn't been addressed, I will pose it. Is it simply a distraction to take parks roads, sidewalks, ponds, grass, and digging questionable drainage, while trying to sneek in a meat processing plant, off the minds of the few folks who can only focus on one thought a day, twice a week. All they did was allow bids to do the work, to finally begin. Government money to do it has been there, what was the hold up, and why is it now in motion when the only thing keeping it from moving was the city. Perhaps they had to wait for the eventual bid winner to free its calender and commitments to do the work. Its quite possible with the lot we have at the helm, and their steering committee of philanthropists. Its strange how money in hand is so hard to complete projects on, but if it is tif, or other imaginary money, it gets moving before it gets started.

These folks took three times estimated cost bid for work at the city shooting gallery. Only one bid was submitted. Garage doors, could have been eliminated. If they want an indoor range, use one of the old buildings that keep getting life /safety nixed by the schools.

Its quite evident four or five can't do the job, of doing city business. That isn't implying that we need six or ten to now do it, it means we need the same ammount of different ideas from completely different capable people in the chairs. With the exception of hiring an attourney, and an accountant, to keep legal issues focused on, and financial issues focused on, and where the two converge, on the up and up, according to two professionals, not just one long family friend of the city.

One of three more chairs and name plates at the two council open meeting tables, is not the difference in fixing lacking focus. One more head on this hydra, under yet another hired title, would only add to the problems trying to do anything the right way faces here. "