" Guess we can kiss Lender's goodbye soon as well if this goes through. Hopefully they learn from Trailmobile and Blaw Knox debacles. "

" You can add Boge in Paris to the list of plants closed because of unions. "

" Yea, Yong Radiator was the best paying Factory in the county and Mattoon has kind of gone the way of the Young Radiator property since they left.

A good union will give workers a better wage and in turn they spend that better wage in their communities.

We should hope that the city doesnt have to lay off any union workers because if the do it will create a ripple effect through the community.

And quite frankly, we cant afford to lose anymore decent paying jobs in this community. The reason being there is very little left here for young people now but poverty. "

" You know, when a business allows a new vendor to become involved with the business, the question *What do you bring to the table?* always comes up. For example, before a business changes a major supplier of a critical production component, the new supplier would have to be capable of providing a better product, usually at a lower cost per unit of production.

My question is: What does United Food and Commercial Workers Local 881 bring to the Lender table? A better-trained worker, a more reliable worker, a worker capable of producing a better product with a lower cost? Or, could it be that this union brings absolutely nothing to the table except higher product costs and a whole list of other management headaches? "

" It sounds as if your grasp of labor unions is about on par with your understanding of politics, gringa.

The only reason these people voted union is because of the conditions they were forced to work under. Don't blame the workers for getting sick and tired of being abused, blame the management who exploited them for too long. Have you really talked to anyone who worked there or are you just spouting off with your anti union blather? "

" Some business, takes hard looks at the whole deal brought to the table, when negotiating.

Many like government simply take the lowest bidder. Defense contracts went to an 18 year old kids business, to supply ammunition, and military supplies. He used cheap chinese and other foreign manufactured goods, and had several contracts, before someone looked close enough because of complaints from the end users, Foreign fighters we were arming.

Motive for the union is a valid point. Trailmobile was largely driven out by the union. Blawknox was a close second, but Their demands were moot, once Ingersol Rand bought the name out front, it was uniformly certain Mattoon would be shuddered. They could have been the epitome of good unions, it likely would not have saved the plant.

Any demands, and increases have to be countered with increased benefit to the company, or it will never get off the ground and stay aloft.

The idea of Unions is not what makes them beneficial. People make or break any union, long before a company will get the chance to. If a new focus and dedication to the job isn't part of the move, by all employees, with the union ensuring slackers won't be retained, it will never work.

Union workers can benefit the company as well as themselves. Only if they make it their priority to invest more in performing their jobs, will they benefit more than they did without it. To get more, you gotta give more. It swings both ways, but greed at the onset, could jade any future negotiations, if they keep the same name long enouogh to get that far. "

" HP, when you say *It sounds as if your grasp of labor unions is about on par with your understanding of politics, gringa.*, I have no idea what your point is - and I'm betting 90% of the posters on here don't get it either.

I'm confident I know a lot more about unions than you do, my friend. Several years ago, I had a razor-sharp knife held to my throat when I attempted to cross a picket line and made the mistake of rolling down my window to talk to some of the strikers. In that same strike, I had the union president fall against the front fender of my truck while I was leaving the plant with a load of product bound for customers who were ready to buy elsewhere if we didn't deliver. The State Police were there, observed and filmed the whole incident, and eventually arrrested the guy for filing a false police report. In that same 3-month strike, I had to move my family 1,200 hundred miles out of state for the last two months of the strike because some goons were parked in my driveway 24/7 for two days, tracking every move my wife and two kids made. I know all about unions.

When the strike finally settled, the workers came back to work for less than the offer that we had on the table before they took the strike vote. The company lost millions in sales and profits, and so did the sheep who walked the line for 13 weeks!

By the next contract date, that Teamsters local was history, and everyone celebrated - labor and management.

So, HP, what first-hand knowledge do you have about management and labor negotiations? Do you actually know anyone at Lender's who has been, as you say, abused? Talk is cheap. How about some facts? "

" Ruh Roh "

" Just as I suspected, you were a scab. LOL! Why am I not surprised.

That's it? Your extensive knowledge of labor unions is your scab story? Pathetic! Being a scab doesn't seem to qualify you as an expert on labor negotiations, union memebership or anything else. You really showed your ignorance with that one.

Regardless of what I have to say about my involvement with unions and contract negotiations you would claim I was lying. I've had these types of conversations with you in the past, and you're a little quick to start calling people a liar, under your various posting names, so I don't really see a need to go there. But thanks for owning up to the scab label.

Actually, that idiotic story sounded like a bunch of hogwash. I have been both a member of the Teamsters, and have been in management positions dealing with the Teamsters, from negotiating labor contracts, to dealing with grievances, and never heard of the Teamsters going after one miserable scab before. Nice try though. What a load of horse manure that one was, Doh. LOL!

Oh, and yes I have two co workers who have spouses who work at Lender's, so I get a lot of information as to how they and their families feel about the treatment of the employees at that place. I would say that I have a pretty good idea of what is happening there. What do you know, other that what you read in the paper? That and your made up little tale about your scab days. LOL! "

" Dedicated to the scabs of the world:

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a cork-screw soul, a water-logged brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of Hell to keep him out.

No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab has not.

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern strikebreaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children and his fellow men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust or corporation.

Esau was a traitor to himself: Judas Iscariot was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a strikebreaker is a traitor to his God, his country, his wife, his family and his class. "

" Well, as usual, Potter, you have it wrong. A scab is a union worker who crosses the line. I was not a member of the Teamsters. I was a loyal member of management who was trying to keep the place going so that all the non-union employees working under me could continue to earn a living and put food on the table. The sheep out on the picket line were receiving subsidy cash from a Teamster strike fund. By the way, the local officers were paid twice as much from that strike fund as their so-called brothers (which didn't set too well with the rank and file once that little secret came out).

I was a member of the Pipe Fitters in my younger years. After a five year apprentice program, I was a very well-trained worker. The fitter's union provides a better worker for the trade and for the companies involved in that trade. I ask you again, what does the United Food and Commercial Workers Local 881 bring to the table for Lender's - other than demands for higher wages and management headaches?

When a union brings nothing to the company except threats of disruption and higher production costs, the company has a right to defend itself. The Lender folks can make bagels in Mexico, or anywhere else, and they probably will do just that. This union isn't going to do anything for the people, except take some of their hard earned money and put it into the pocket of the union bosses. Wake up, boy; that's just the way it is! "

" They did not file anything because they wer concentrating on more of

" Where are we going to move the business to ? " "

" Sorry for the misunderstanding, gringa. You failed to mention that your were a part of management in your little tale, so I'm sure that you can understand my mistake. Besides, after reading your others posts, I just sort of figured you were the type to cross a picket line.

In reality, I suspect it wasn't a closed shop and you were one of those weasel types who failed to join but were happy to take the benefits the union bargained for. If so, that's about as bad as being a scab.

That imagenitive bit about having to move your family 1200 miles to get away from the union thugs was a bit much though. That's quite an imagination you have. "

" HP: That imagenitive bit about having to move your family 1200 miles to get away from the union thugs was a bit much though. That's quite an imagination you have. "

Well, believe what you want, Harry. I've never made up anything when posting on this site. The strike I'm referring to was indeed a violent one. One of the reasons for that was the frustration the rank and file had with the local's leadership. The plant I worked in was one of 19 in that same division with locations all over the US. The real issue in that strike wasn't about low wages or working conditions within my plant. It was about the Teamster's much larger campaign back then to take over representation from the United Paperworkers International Union. The Teamsters had a lot a stake and had chosen our plant as the first of many expansion targets. Eventually, as I said, the Teamsters lost out. The local was decertified a few years after that strike.

The state police said they couldn't provide the 24/7 surveilance my family needed, and the cost of private surveilance outweighed the cost of airfare and accomodations out of state, plus the latter was obviously a safer plan for my family. Like I said, believe what you want. It's a true story. By the way, the Steelworkers, not the Teamsters, eventually took over the Paperworkers Union.

Back to Lenders. If the union brings nothing to the company except demands that result in higher production costs, the company has no choice but to look elsewhere for a more friendly business environment. If you owned the company yourself, you'd do the same thing. Lenders has no obligation to stay in Mattoon. If they shutter the place and move south, that decision will be based on financial analysis - nothing less and nothing more. That's just the way it is. "

" Actually, that idiotic story sounded like a bunch of hogwash

HP, tell that to the innocent people who didn't work at Trailmobile who just happened to drive by the plant and got jackrocks in their tires for driviving on public roads. "

" A scab is a worker who refuses to join a Union, according to websters. They are usually only referred to, as scabs when they cross union picket lines.

Plants use illegals, and temps in union or non union shops. Because it is the cheapest they can get the jobs done for. Its no different then taking the lowest bid to do government work. Ultimately you get what you pay for. Or eventually the end consumers do. Management is often worse than scabs. They often have only one focus, quick easy money.

Thousands of temps do the same jobs a fulltime help around here, for less money no benefits, and no job security. Illinois is a no non union job security state. No cause has to be given, for any termination. Only when the idiots in management give a cause, is it even quesionable as being wrongful termination.

Union is one remedy to give themselves any job security. Many companies make it clear they will shut down, to keep unions out. Sometimes it comes down to if they won't do things right, stands have to be taken. Even if it means they close the doors for it. It sends the message, to all the other plants here. Put peoples lives a little higher on the priorities, or stop doing business here, at the expense of people.

Many companies see employees as a one is as good as the next, commodity. If one warm body leaves, we can just get another one to do the same job for less. Skill and atention to detail, can't be simply inspired through training and a handout. If companies utilized its workers, instead of exploiting them like some disposable paper cups at a water cooler, to be gone through one after the other, they would be much more profitable. They don't get it.

Fear fades when hope does. Inspiring workers with genuine incentives, will drive them to go beyond anywhere they can. A union is the opportunity for workers to drive the inspiration to perform, and benefit the company with production increases, and possible cost of production cuts.

Mixed shops, Union and non union limit the tools. Having non commited folks thrown in with the commited ones will dilute the chances for as broad a change as an all union shop could bring. Why is the person not tied to the union going to give 100 percent, to do their job if it isn't going to get any more benefit than just showing up for work does? Same with Temps, if someone doing the same job, has benefits and a few more dollars an hour, whats the long term incentive for them to begin or keep giving 100 percent to their job.

Companies don't get it. As long as they don't, they are restraining themselves from being as profitable. Its not the workers. Its not if some are union or not. Greed and ignorance, is the problem.

If the union can lead more, on curing some of the ignorance, and not be greedy in the process, it could ultimately save the company expenses and make it more profitable. It can be a win win. Its now up to the union to thoughtfully plan needed actions, instead of simple reactions to continuing problems.

A union shares shouldering the success of the company, when it forms. It is a statement we like what we do, and want to make it the best we possibly can for every aspect of the business, that we affect or affects us. If that is not the ultimate goal of the union, its best if they don't follow through with starting one. Its not just about days off, or raises. It has to be commitment to the industry, and true desire to take any steps necessary to make it beter. "

" Know what happens to a scab when you pickett?

It bleeds. "

" I think scabs are brave. "

" So GRINGA, you acknowledge that it is not ALWAYS the unions as a whole which may cause conflict, but the TYPE of union? "