" Complete nonsense,
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.
That's what Thomas Jefferson actually believed, in his own words, not your distorted theocratic propaganda. "

" The real Jefferson speaks:
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 "

" Ike forecast to slam Texas as Category 4, with 130 mph winds
---
Clearly, God is punishing Texas for the sin of harboring the Bush family. "

" First of all I'd say we really don't KNOW what Jefferson REALLY believed. We have hints and tidbits, little pieces that give us an idea of his character and thoughts. I THINK that Jefferson was an intelligent, thoughtful, well read man for his times, and that if he were around today his thinking and intellect would have expanded with the great progress in Scientific and Historical discoveries over the past 230 years. In other words he wouldn't be thinking the same things he thought in 1776. He would have grown up unlike Mr. Calhoun. "

" Mr. Calhoun, us unorthodox, spiritual people don't have a problem with anyone practicing their religions. We have a problem with lawmakers forcing laws of THEIR religion down our throats. If you want to live by the 10 commandments, be our guest. They're a pretty good base to live by. But, most religions believe in a Creator and we have no problem with the wording of the Declaration of Independence. Whether it be Jehovah, Alah, Buddha, Ohm, Ra, or the flying spaghetti monster, they are all covered under the word creator. That's what made Thomas Jefferson different from today's lawmakers. If you want to display the 10 commandments publicly, place them in your front yard. Why should the Buddhist next door, or the athiest down the street be forced to pay for something that they don't believe in. Just because YOU DO? So, you wouldn't have a problem with a public display of the Quaran? That your taxes paid to build and display at the court house? Sure you would. You'd be outraged! "

" RE: Clearly, God is punishing Texas for the sin of harboring the Bush family.

TQ: I know you are mocking a certain religious person on the right, but honestly, I find no joy in this. "

" Of all our Founding Fathers, I admire Jefferson the most. I think anyone who knows anything about Jefferson can assume that from my handle name. That said, it doesn't really matter what Jefferson personally believed in regards to religion.

Mind you, Jefferson believed in slavery too. As our civilization has advanced, we have abandoned the practical application of the Founding Fathers in favor of their overall themes. We abandoned the institution of slavery and gave former slaves equal sufferage. Along the way, we even managed to give women the right to vote -- Jefferson was not a proponent of women's sufferage as it was a non-issue that never even crossed his, or any of the other Founding Fathers, mind.

Jefferson, and the other Founding Fathers, were in fact religious. For them religion was an integral part of life. No objection there. What many do not understand is why, if they were so religious, did they not create a Christian Republic. These people founded our nation. It was not like the left-wing media was there, ready to pounce on them if they decided to make one, and there certainly wasn't a very large atheist community in post-colonial America. So why, why did they not just adopt Christianity as our national religion?

For Jefferson, the concern was not keeping religion out of politics, but rather, keeping a specific religion from monopolizing politics. You must understand the impact of the Church of England during the period prior to the American Revolution. While the Anglican Church exerted control in England, it was more-or-less powerless in the American colonies before the period leading up to the Revolution. However, in time, it began to exert it's influence across the Atlantic through a monarchy that was not actively fighting a European War. Hence, people who once had religious freedom were now being subject to a state religion -- and that is what Jefferson feared the most.

Thus, the fact Jefferson went to a Baptist church or even gave monies to a Catholic mission do not support anything as from the fact they were religious -- religion, however, was not the issue. The issue is, and always has been, having one religion superior to every other religion in the country. In Jeffersons time it was which brand of Christianity, so universal icons of Christianity were not as much of an issue. In God We Trust was not an issue because 99% of the population of the nation was of the same orientation when it came to religion.

As American followed the path set forth by Jefferson and the others, we became a melting pot of people. Our population is now diverse, both physically and spiritually. In Jeffersons time the concern was keeping a specific brand of Christianity from monopolizing the system. Now things are slightly different. Now we have a multitude of different religions in our society and the focus of religion in the government broadens to encompass both the speific type and broader type of religion.

To allow Christian ideology to dominate modern government would be akin to allowing only Catholic ideology to dominate the government of Jeffersons time. Would Jefferson had agreed to, in Mother Mary We Trust on our coins? Definately not.

Essentially, Mr. Calhoun, you do not understand why the Founding Fathers did not found a Christian Republic, how our nation as evolved over time, and how the core principles of Jefferson are applicable in modern society.

But, by all means, let's do make this a Christian nation so the religious zealots will be happy -- for all of about 30 minutes.

Then will will hear the very same arguements again, this time deciding which brand of Christianity is to be favored by our government.

I motion Branch Davidian (they were Christians), anyone care to second the motion? "

" Jefferson, like many of the founders and Enlightenment thinkers, was a deist, not a Christian. Deism is the theistic belief that a God exists and created the physical universe, but does not intervene in its operation. Jefferson therefore did not believe Jesus was divine.
How do I know that? Because Thomas Jefferson REWROTE the New Testament specifically to strip out all of Jesus' supernatural powers and miracles. He called the resulting work "The Jefferson Bible, or The Life And Morals of Jesus of Nazareth." "

" " RE: Clearly, God is punishing Texas for the sin of harboring the Bush family.
TQ: I know you are mocking a certain religious person on the right, but honestly, I find no joy in this. "
---
Really? I do. It makes exactly as much sense as any fundamentalist religious theory or manifestation, wouldn't you say? "

" Gee, Mr. didn't Mr. Calhoun include this quote?
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813. "

" Or this quote:
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 "

" Or this quote:
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814 "

" Or this quote:
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 "

" You know, what Jefferson's true personal beliefs were are not the important ones in the freedom of religion issue. The truth is the majority of the voters of the constitution were in favor leaving this issue out entirely, except for one thorn in their sides: Pennsylvania.

When William Penn and his companions migrated to the Americas, they did so to obtain their own freedom of religion. Yes, I know, so did the Pilgrims, but they were only interested in freedom of their own religion. They dealt harshly with whomever disagreed or strayed from their annointed paths. But William Penn felt that the freedom to practice his own beliefs was so wonderful that he believed that this should be something available to everyone, no matter their religion. This attitude was even extended to furthering ones's knowledge in other areas besides theology. This became the law of their colony.

As a result Pennsylvania, and more specifically, Philadelphia, became the hot bed for religious growth and progressive thinking. It teemed with churches, mosques, and temples. Schools were rampant, libraries were started, and newspapers and books were published. The Continental Congress met there. And the new American government was set smack down in the center of it all. In a city called "the City of Brotherly Love." And since several of the "movers and shakers" of the time came from Pennsylvania, the constitution was written to include freedom of religion rather than to anger the colony by outlawing what they had always practiced.

I have every respect for the framers of our country. But just like today, the roster of those responsible included individuals with their own beliefs and concepts of how things should progress. What each individual stood for personally is unimportant. It is their collective, hard developed, work that stands out. The Declaration of Independence and The United States Constitution are still two of the greatest documents ever conceived and written. They were the result of countless hours of discussion (and argument) between disparate people bringing their own ideas and beliefs to the table, and compromising on favorite issues for the good of the whole. They created masterpieces.

It is a shame that we do not continue to live up to their example. It is also a shame that more credit isn't given to William Penn, a man who, in my opinion, is probably the greatest religious leader of the American era. We owe our freedom of religion to him. The framers of the Constitution just went along for the ride. "

" I know The Question was joking but I would like to ask you all to pray for me as I have to evacuate from IKE. I am not so worried about the wind damage but I live a block off of Galveston Bay and so the storm surge is more than likely going to destroy my home. So please pray for me and my friends and family as we weather these next days!

Thanks,
Texas T (Tina) "

" Consider it done, Texas T (Tina).
Good Luck, Take Care, & Hurry Back!
:-) "

" ..."The prayer that I tell myself every night is a fairly simple one: I ask in the name of Jesus Christ that my sins are forgiven, that my family is protected and that I am an instrument of God's will. I'm constantly trying to align myself to what I think he calls on me to do. And sometimes you hear it strongly and sometimes that voice is more muted."

- Senator Barrack Obama
(who apparently hears the voice of God)

Will you be voting for this RELIGIOUS NUT, Question? "

" As usual, Bill, you're confused. God only talks directly to Pat Robertson and George Bush. "

" For my friend, TQ. I think I've figured out why Doh has to change names every other week or so, I suspect as confused as he seems to be, he just keeps forgetting his password. "

" (As usual, Bill, you're confused. God only talks directly to Pat Robertson and George Bush.)

That's not how Barrack hears it,Harry. LOL "

" Well Harry, since your friend The Question is too afraid to answer, I'll ask you:

Are you going to vote for the RELIGIOUS NUT WHO HEARS GOD'S VOICE- Barrack Obama? "

" Can you imagine what the media would do to someone as liberal as Jefferson today? "

" The quote ("I have sworn...")from Thomas Jefferson is often cited as evidence that this country was based on Christian values by the founding fathers (taking for granted that he was a Christian which he was not). Ironically, if you actually read the whole letter, this comment is taken WAY out of context and is aimed AGAINST the tyranny of the church and the churchs' attempts to infuse religion into the government.
Also, in a letter to Thomas Cooper, Thomas Jefferson explains in pretty erudite terms that common law is not based on the ten commandments...
Read them yourself and see what you think! "