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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:11 PM CDT
Christians don't have, the corner on truth

By SUSAN J. HUMPHREYS, Oakland

“If Grace is True, Why God will save every person”, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic and Gnostic. That is the title of a book by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. They point out that many Christians have completely missed the message of the Bible when they insist that “God would be gracious, if I accepted Jesus as my Savior — if I was baptized the right way — if I attended the right church — if I prayed the right prayer — if I obeyed the right set of rules.” I might also add those Christians who believe that Grace won’t be granted to homosexuals, Jews, Buddhists, or anyone that doesn’t believe what they believe have also missed the boat.

The authors quote one woman’s response to this idea, “I’ve worked hard to live a good life, and now you tell me everyone is going to get in.” They say, “I don’t have much sympathy for such a response. Such self-righteousness offended Jesus.” They also add a bit later, “I now realize religion that is primarily motivated by heavenly reward is flawed. It is no more admirable than a man who tells a woman he loves her simply to get her into bed.”

I’m not a Christian, when I was 20 I read Siddhartha, by Herman Hesse and I realized that Christianity did not have the corner on truth. I realized that there were many truths out there and I set out to discover them. My journey has led me to the Sacred Texts of the Hindus and the Buddhists, the writings of American Indian Spiritual Leaders, and Lao Tzu, the philosophies of the world’s greatest thinkers and theologians, and by a different route, I came to the same conclusion that Gulley and Mulholland reached. Grace is granted to everyone (whether you believe it is a gift from God as they do or a natural part of the human condition as I do), that Grace is freedom to overcome fear not control by fear, that Grace is about a way of living in this world not about a final resting place, and that it all hinges on how you treat your fellow man (your everyday actions, not occasional good deeds or great charitable bequests) or as the Bible says, whether you love your neighbor as your brother, whatever their race, ethnicity, sexual preference, gender, religion or lack thereof.

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Jon Vanatta wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:58 AM:

" 2 Timothy 3:7
always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. "

VTucker wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:43 AM:

" Could someone please remove the comma from the title to this letter? It's bugging me. Thank you.

Now, as Rotty might say, INCOMING! "

Illinoisbound wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:23 AM:

" You trying to convince us or yourself? "

The Question wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:14 AM:

" An excellent, thoughtful letter as usual, Susan. "

father bob wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:18 AM:

" great letter!.....nice explanation of grace in the real world. "

sapient wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:05 AM:

" Susan, here I thought that the JG-TC wouldn't print any more of your letters.

When I was young (not necessarily 20) I read Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus (ch.2 v.8-9) which says "God has saved you by His special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:40 AM:

" Gulley and Mulholland have done what many Christians have failed to do: they have honestly faced the Churchs traditional doctrines of salvation and eternal justice.Christianity Today "

tammer65 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 12:02 PM:

" Excellent letter, Susan. It seems particularly timely in light of the shootings at the Unitarian Universalist Church in Tennessee, a church targeted for its liberal teachings. That tragic event is a perfect example of what can happen when some Christian extremists believe they have a corner on Truth. "

HisChild wrote on Jul 30, 2008 1:21 PM:

" God has the corner on truth. God Is Truth.
God is Love. We are created by God. "

father bob wrote on Jul 30, 2008 3:01 PM:

" tammer65 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 12:02 PM:
" Excellent letter, Susan. It seems particularly timely in light of the shootings at the Unitarian Universalist Church in Tennessee, a church targeted for its liberal teachings. That tragic event is a perfect example of what can happen when some Christian extremists believe they have a corner on Truth. """"

being a "liberal" church makes the act less of a crime to the mainstream neocon christians.....just like bombing planned parenthood offices or abortion clinics. too bad someone died, but "those people" aren't doing "god's will".... "

father bob wrote on Jul 30, 2008 3:04 PM:

" HisChild wrote on Jul 30, 2008 1:21 PM:
" God has the corner on truth. God Is Truth.
God is Love. We are created by God. """"

so we're to be happy to walk mindlessly blind through this lifetime with some fake "knowing" smile on our face? "

The Question wrote on Jul 30, 2008 3:12 PM:

" As Voltaire said, doubt is not a pleasant condition,
but certainty is absurd. "

1 cav wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:05 PM:

" Illinoisbound wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:23 AM:
" You trying to convince us or yourself? "
*******************
I believe you have the correct answer!
She does not like what she read in the Bible,so she is searching for a way of her liking and wants company. Kind of like the GREAT DECEIVER. "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:26 PM:

" Thanks, VTucker.
LOL!

.......

Hey Sue!
I'm glad to see your letter finally grace our midst, here & in the printed version, I was in need of something to line my bird cage with, & you did the trick.

Thanks, Online Buddy! "

The Question wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:29 PM:

" When Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning-rod, the clergy, both in England and America, with enthusiastic support of George III, condemned it as an impious attempt to defeat the will of God. "

Hahvahd wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:30 PM:

" Is there no end to the idiocy and intolerance of posters like 1 cav? What will it take before you see that intolerance is the problem, not the answer? What does it hurt YOU, 1 cav, if Susan Humphreys doesn't believe in your Bible? What are you out? Nothing. It doesn't harm your own salvation one iota. But society DOES hurt when narrow-minded people like yourself no longer are satisfied with mere verbal abuse of those who disagree. Then we get madmen like the fellow in Tennessee who try to silence all liberal ideas forever. Ask yourself, 1 cav, "What would Jesus do?" Would He go around making an a55 of Himself like you and sapient and illinoisbound and others, by being hateful and self-righteous and judgmental, He who has the power to judge, or would he be kind and patient and loving and understanding and forgiving? I have a feeling He'd be a lot more likely to accept the Susan Humphreys of the world than He would the likes of you! "

The Question wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:37 PM:

" The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window.
Stephen King "

The Question wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:44 PM:

" It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
- Thomas Jefferson "

Hahvahd wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:50 PM:

" Anyone needing liner for the bird cage or cat box could always print out your many comments, Rotty, and use those. I've yet to read anything of yours worth bothering over, mostly just self-congratulatory messages and conversations with "friends" best suited for private emails. At least Ms. Humphreys is actually capable of THOUGHT and is trying to encourage others to think. Though I can see why someone of your intellectual calibre might have trouble understanding that and would thus use it for the bird cage. "

VTucker wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:00 PM:

" Ask yourself, 1 cav, "What would Jesus do?"

Seeing some of the things people write who argue from the Christian position, I wonder the same thing. I hope that 1 cav, John Vanatta, HisChild, illinoisbound etc. will explain why they feel the need to insult (here and/or on other threads) those who do not believe as they do--Susan in particular bears the brunt of these attacks. According to the Scripture we follow, if we say anything at all to anyone, it's supposed to be out of concern and love. And what we say is supposed to be loving, too. I invite any of those I've mentioned to explain the purpose of insulting those who do not agree with their doctrine--and how this behavior fits in with Christian belief. "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:06 PM:

" The Question wrote on Jul 30, 2008 4:37 PM: " The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window.
Stephen King "
===================
Add the name of Stephen King to the list of those who exaggerate the truth to make a point. Dang! And I thought Stephen King was such a great theologian! "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:11 PM:

" VTucker wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:00 PM: "I invite any of those I've mentioned to explain the purpose of insulting those who do not agree with their doctrine--and how this behavior fits in with Christian belief."

I got $20 that says you'll never get any intelligent responses to THAT one! We on? "

tammer65 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:27 PM:

" VTucker, nicely put! "

HisChild wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:48 PM:

" VTucker wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:00 PM:
" Ask yourself, 1 cav, "What would Jesus do?"

Seeing some of the things people write who argue from the Christian position, I wonder the same thing. I hope that 1 cav, John Vanatta, HisChild, illinoisbound etc. will explain why they feel the need to insult (here and/or on other threads) those who do not believe as they do--Susan in particular bears the brunt of these attacks. According to the Scripture we follow, if we say anything at all to anyone, it's supposed to be out of concern and love. And what we say is supposed to be loving, too. I invite any of those I've mentioned to explain the purpose of insulting those who do not agree with their doctrine--and how this behavior fits in with Christian belief. "

VTucker...What?
I wrote this...
HisChild wrote on Jul 30, 2008 1:21 PM:
" God has the corner on truth. God Is Truth.
God is Love. We are created by God. "

You are calling that AN INSULT?

You and Tammer consistantly defend Shumphreys yet choose to ignore her insults. Are you then being loving by not defending all those she unleashes her insults at? "

CHILL! wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:51 PM:

" Hahvahd is shumphreys.
Tammer 65 and VTucker are also shumphreys.
It is so obvious the way they hover over each other. "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:52 PM:

" Getting your panties in a wad, Hahvahd?

I thought some of your first posts here, on other articles, were quite good, but alas, I was mistaken.

I can see why you might think my intellectual calibre might be troubling to you & your ilk.
With your head stuck so far up other's butts, it becomes a little difficult to be able to have thoughts of your own, & to be able to even understand them.

If you don't like posts about other poster's posts, skip them skippy, otherwise, endure the freedom for fun.
LOL! "

VTucker wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:19 PM:

" HisChild, I was thinking of your July 23 post on the "Living God's Way" thread. I also invite HerChild, CHILL!, Equalizer, arrogant, and Late Bird to come out and explain how insulting other people builds up the kingdom of God.

I'm not defending Susan H., and she is well aware our basic beliefs are quite different--though I think we do agree that people should follow the teachings of Jesus (in how we treat other people). I am only asking some of you to explain your reasons for attacking other people in the name of Jesus.

If other people who are antagonistic to you or your beliefs are insulting, what does it matter? Aren't you claiming to have a better way? If so, make it real. "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:24 PM:

" To His Child what is insulting about saying that all people deserve the same rights, that grace will be granted to everyone, about informing people about a good book by Christian scholars and endorsed by a Christian magazine, the ideas aren't mine they are found in the Bible and in all the other sacred texts of the worlds Great religions. The quotes were from the book and from fellow Christians, so don't blame me if you don't like them. "

tammer65 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:29 PM:

" HisChild, a couple of reasons for the differences in the way I respond to your harsh words vs. Susan's:

1) You claim to be Christian; Susan doesn't, so I respond to the hypocrisy in your harsh attacks. As Christians, we've committed ourselves to turn the other cheek and to love our neighbor.

2) Susan's remarks are usually in self-defense.

3) I support Susan's views on tolerance and believe them to be in keeping with the message of Jesus Christ. I don't find the venomous comments hurled her way to have anything to do with Christ's message. "

Hahvahd wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:35 PM:

" Rotty: "Panties in a wad!" What a witty, witty comeback! How can anyone keep up with your forceful logic and well-reasoned rebuttal. I would say, "I surrender," but I'm sure you're incapable of understanding sarcasm, too. And a bit narcissistic of you to believe that anyone would care whether you thought they made good points or not. Quite frankly, I'd prefer you didn't, because if someone like you is agreeing with me on an issue, it's a sure sign that I missed the mark. "

Cognitus wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:43 PM:

" I'm surprised -- astonished, in fact -- that Conservatives are the ones most likely to be Christians. Through their political life; they preach independence,
self-reliance, and yet on their deathbed
they call on someone else -- their political views constantly change.
For my part, I believe religion is simply the myth of the people which they accept to "explain" something they fear and do not understand.
My religious views are the same as my political views: I believe in independence and self-reliance. In the moment of death, I'm going to dive into the unknown on my own.... I don't really believe in Heaven and Hell; that's just a fiction invented by religions to scare the Heal out of individuals and recruit believers.
My grandparents were of opposite views on these matters, and each said, "Someeday you'll find out". At the moment of her death my grandmother murmured she could "hear the angels singing". Ah well, who knows whether it was true of whether it was simply the physiological trick her brain was playing on her at the moment of death.
Nobody every comes back to tell us. "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:00 PM:

" Thanks for admitting you missed the mark, Hahvahd.
It was a given that you won't understand intellectual calibre of any sort, you already admitted to that.
Thanks for trying though, & remember, I'm always here to offer my online help. "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:09 PM:

" CHILL! wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:51 PM:
" Hahvahd is shumphreys.
Tammer 65 and VTucker are also shumphreys.
It is so obvious the way they hover over each other. "

After seeing the last few posts,
I think you're right CHILL! "

Hahvahd wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:14 PM:

" Rotty, thanks for proving that backwoods, in-bred trolls like yourself are incapable of reading, let alone understanding sarcasm. "

Hahvahd wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:33 PM:

" Hey, CHILL and Equalizer, "Anna-anna-bo-banna-banana-fanna-fo-fanna-fe-fi-mo-manna-Anna!" Let's try "shumphreys. . . ." Nah, it's not even fun in the song. You're starting to sound like pj61938, with all this speculation about who's posting under what name. Why not just accept the fact that there could be more than 1 person in rural Illinois who has a liberal view of religion? It doesn't mean they're all the same person. "

The Truth wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:37 PM:

" Actually, we DO have the corner on the truth. Just because this apostate atheist claims Christianity isn't valid TO HER doesn't make it so. I bet she feels good spouting her demonistic propaganda to the world - too bad it makes her a laughingstock. "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 7:45 PM:

" Hahvahd, thank you for proving your plain & simple ignorance from understanding sarcasm from the very beginning. Guess you're not the great reader you proclaim to be.
Tongue-in-cheek, or is that over your head, too?
LOL! "

Hahvahd wrote on Jul 30, 2008 8:04 PM:

" Rotty, let me speak in language you're perhaps more familiar with, the cliche: Look who can dish it out but can't take it! Our ole pal, Rotty! Look whose "panties are in a wad" now! ROFLMAO @ Rotty. "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 30, 2008 8:07 PM:

" To The Truth, I didn't say anything about Christianity being valid or invalid. Those words don't make any sense when applied to a belief. Why can't you accept that different people hold beliefs different from your own and that your beliefs aren't any truer, more right, then theirs? The book I mention in my letter is a written by Christians and endorsed by a Christian magazine. There are as many different Christian beliefs as there are other religious beliefs. They all contain truths. Actually the genius of the worlds religions is that they all accept the reality that different people are at different stages of their spiritual journey and they make allowances for that, they can meet different spiritual needs. That is reflected in what these authors teach, they have progressed further down their spiritual path and found a truth beyond what you have found. I have also travelled a very different spiritual path then they have and we ended up with very similar conclusions. So we must be on to something "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 30, 2008 8:30 PM:

" shumphreys says
"That is reflected in what these authors teach, they have progressed further down their spiritual path and found a truth beyond what you have found. I have also travelled a very different spiritual path then they have and we ended up with very similar conclusions. So we must be on to something "

Just as you say 'they have found a truth beyond what you have found'....not what we have found...you again place yourself above all, simply put, your ego is too big.

Whenever you have put yourself above all others, it is a 'truth' that most would really not learn about, for it is an untruth when you demean others to make yourself more important, more spiritual, more understanding. This is not called sharing or helping others in their path, it is called patting yourself on the back. We'd rather have nothing to do with it, thanks for your effort though. "

arrogant wrote on Jul 30, 2008 8:49 PM:

" Yes. That's right. shumphreys and I can't accept that different people hold beliefs different from our own different beliefs.

shumphreys and I think that you christians should be able to pick and choose many truths even though jesus christ said he was the only truth.

shumphreys and I see no contradiction in following christ just a little even though christ demands that you follow him completely.

After all, who can forget your christ's famous words, "Yea I say to thee you can follow me only as much as you like. I am but one of many truths. I am but one of many ways. I am but one of many lives. You can remain lukewarm and I will not vomit you from my mouth. Yea, it is all good."

Why won't you idiotic christians let shumphreys and I teach you people the truth about your religion, after all who knows better than us?

shumphreys and I are smarter than your jesus christ so you really should listen to us. "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:01 PM:

" To The Equalizer, spiritual journeys are horizontal journeys not hierarchical. Each person enters this world at different stages on their journey and progress as far as they can down "THEIR" path. Some paths are longer or shorter than other paths. Just cause I have travelled further down my path then you have travelled down yours doesn't make me "BETTER" than you it makes me "DIFFERENT" than you. The reality of grace that the writers I mentioned discovered is that it is granted to all, believer and non-believer, good and bad, progressed and non-progressed. Besides if you don't complete your journey in this life you may get a chance to come back and complete it in the next! "

tammer65 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:08 PM:

" VTucker, I think you just got an answer -- not the one you wanted, but the one you expected, from good buddy arrogant. "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:08 PM:

" Once again I want the legal record to show that the poster who calls him/herself Arrogant does not have my persmission to speak on my behalf. He appears to be unable to make coherent statements of his own and must parody what I say. "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:10 PM:

" Once again I want the legal record to show that the poster who calls him/herself Arrogant does not have my persmission to speak on my behalf. He makes blatant lies about what I have said and appears to be unable to make coherent statements of his own and must parody what I say. "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:16 PM:

" No panties in a wad here - au-natural!
I'm loving every minute of this!
LMAO!!!!

Hahvahd, let me give it to you in a language you can understand.

I got my intellectual calibre from the best liberals on this site, even yourself.

Let me even make it easier....

Hail Obama, & to there being no God in this world, & that's enough for me, cause crazy susie said so.

Hahvahd, you're not too bright are you.
It's true, a sucker is born every minute.

Now, go give Susie a hug, I'm sure she could use one by now.

Here, take her an online tissue while you're at it.
LMAO!!!!

By the way, try actually reading some, if you've been around, like you say you have.
You can call me every dirty name in the book, or you can think I'm the best thing since sliced bread, it makes no difference at all, & none of it will bother me one bit.
I'm here to have fun, visit some, stir some hell, talk over what few subjects come along that are even worthy of debating, & generally having a good time.
If that makes you think I'm some inbreded, messed up, goofball, that doesn't know my butt from a hole in the ground, & someone who doesn't know how to get serious over any issues, you go right ahead & think that & all you want, it doesn't bother me one bit.
I love it, enjoy it, & invite it from anyone & everyone.
LMAO!

Have a great evening, I know I have!
LMAO!

Here's ya thread back, Sue. "

arrogant wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:18 PM:

" Once again shumphreys and I want the legal record to show that shumphreys and I do not have permission to speak on behalf of christians and we make blatant distortions of what christ taught. "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:25 PM:

" As I go, here's you an online tissue Sue, just in case Hahvahd doesnt't want to get one for you.

Nightie Night Sweetie Pie!

Let the legal record show I don't give a damn, & I'm hitting the hay!
LMAO!!!! "

arrogant wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:27 PM:

" Mr. Rotty, please send an online tissue to shumphreys.
For some inexplicable reason I seem to have caused considerable panty waddage in the goddess.

Behold the power of my awesome wisdom! "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:36 PM:

" Here is the July 23 post VTucker is talking about. (6:19 pm today)

HisChild wrote on Jul 23, 2008 4:23 PM:
" Oh for Pete's sake, Shumphreys is still terrorizing everyone and claiming that she is rising above her ego? How stupendously childish. She must be bored outta her brain with some of the explanations I am seeing around here.

Rotty, you are right on, and I online love you too! :-)

Arrogant, you have a quite unique style, but I am entertained as you do make a lot of sense too!

FatherBob, I think Chill makes a lot of sense too, in fact, you are a bit more abrasive in what you say, but some of your points are good!

Equalizer, I like you too, and your name suits you well. I think it would be cool to make a meeting place and all meet each other. If we did, I think Equalizer should be the peacemaker and nobody else should reveal whom they are. *LOL!*

I've been falsely accused of many things in the past by shumphreys, that is just what she likes to do, it's a sick game.

It's kind of like hide and seek...then she always says I told you so, or you just proved my point. It doesn't matter if you answer or don't answer, if she disagrees with your views, she twists things so that she can somehow feel superior to all. Attack and then cry wolf. I feel sorry for them if she grew up with any brothers or sisters. They have got to all need help. And I sure hope she has no kids, what a horrible thought! OK, now watch, I will be attacked...or not...(just because I said that) *Laughing!*

God bless everyone,
have fun and laugh.
Don't take life so seriously, if you someone like shumphreys who does, it's up to you what to do, but I would say, stay away from them or play with them, but always remember to pray for them.
And always remember to enjoy life.
God blessed us with the life we have, let's be thankful for it and put it to good use. *LOL!* I step down now,
God bless everyone!

As for not understanding HerChild's name, how funny...who's child are you? "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 23, 2008 4:52 PM:
" Heavens His Child have I ever accused you of being anything that you haven't shown us that you are? "

HisChild wrote on Jul 23, 2008 5:03 PM:
" Oh come on now, you know that you have! *LOL!*
You probably just wanted to see if I'd answer, and I did.
Hello there shumphreys! Have a great day! "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 23, 2008 6:13 PM:
" His Child what I would like to see is for this endless hate, name calling, back biting to stop. I have never been the one to throw the first punch and I can throw it back as good as I get. I know how difficult it is to come across someone who isn't intimidated or afraid. I now see why the Catholics hate the Protestants and vice versa and why it took how many years to find a very unsteady truce. I am willing to forgive you your transgressions if you are willing to forgive me mine. " "

Hahvahd wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:36 PM:

" Hey, Mr. Potter, I think you can add this "Rotty" nutcase to your list. He sounds an awful lot like arrogant and co., and is behaving fairly arrogantly, too, especially for someone who uses "imbreded" as a word and brags about wearing no underwear! Toothless redneck, indeed! "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 30, 2008 9:41 PM:

" Now why would she have a post from July 23rd to pick on instead of just dealing with what is today? Why would she keep defending shumphreys to no end? We are so tired of this childishness.

Our family was around two years ago also when shumphreys was attacking everyone, HisChild responded here in truth. Just because you don't like the answers, doesn't mean you or your online buddy is
being attacked. On the contrary, many of us are sick and tired of being attacked and your saying that it is only shumphreys defending herself. Hogwash.

You & tammer have ignored shumphreys attacks for the last 2 years, so you cannot truthfully defend her when your head is in the sand.
As for shumphreys calling a truce, that is very old. She did that two years ago, and immediately started attacking again right afterwards. Many of us were here and know. That is why it's so funny how you defend her in her beliefs of treating all equally and with respect, she has never ever done that, you sadly choose to ignore that fact about your online buddies and their cruelty.

Equalizer "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:06 PM:

" Oh yeah....

INCOMING!

Hahvahd is our new spelling & grammar cop!

LOOKOUT!
LMAO! "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:14 PM:

" ROTTY!
I knew you didn't go to bed LOL!
It was just a test...
You are so funny!
Is it from lack of sleep? :) "

arrogant wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:17 PM:

" Yes yes yes. It is you christians who should have the burden to turn the other cheek. We enlighten individuals are enlightened enough to follow no such standards.

We, the enlightened, are so enlightened that we have no such restraints. We can attack, insult, accuse, distort, make generalization, and remain completely closed-minded to all who refuse to open their minds to us and still remain completely above reproach and entirely morally superior.

You silly narrow-minded hypocritical christians act as if your christ meant for you to not get along with all other beliefs.

It's not as though christ said, "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law"

You idiots don't know your silly bible as well as shumphreys and I do.

Tell them goddess. Enlighten them. "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:18 PM:

" Hahvahd...I believe Rotty was here long before arrogant showed up.
They are however both humorous and well rounded. (No, not that way, I never met them, they could be...LOL!) "

VTucker wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:27 PM:

" Equalizer, it's not about Susan, you, me or anyone else. It's about behaving as if we are what we claim to be. If you feel you have been attacked and then retaliate in kind, does that help the cause of the Christ you believe in?

I agree with some of Susan's opinions and disagree with others. It doesn't harm me if someone does not believe the same way I do. Sometimes I go into the whys and wherefores of what I believe, but not usually. I believe pretty much the standard Christian stuff, what you find in the Creeds of the church--though I personally believe God is looking to include rather than exclude, and we aren't going to be shut out if we don't have our doctrine exactly right. (As if anyone really could.) It's interesting that, although the Bible is vague when it comes to settling matters of doctrine, it is crystal clear about how we're supposed to treat each other. God IS a God of grace.

But the main thing, to me, is Who I'm supposed to be representing. So I don't see myself as defending this one or that, I'm just asking people to look at what they're saying to others as they try to represent Christianity. That's pretty much it--good night to all. "

The Curious wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:27 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Jul 30, 2008 6:24 PM:
" To His Child what is insulting about saying that all people deserve the same rights, that grace will be granted to everyone, about informing people about a good book by Christian scholars and endorsed by a Christian magazine, the ideas aren't mine they are found in the Bible and in all the other sacred texts of the worlds Great religions. The quotes were from the book and from fellow Christians, so don't blame me if you don't like them. "

shumphreys you just don't get it.

The thing that is insulting about saying that all people deserve the same rights, that grace will be granted to everyone,

is that you say it, and do not live it. That is a hypocrite in all walks of life. You can talk a good story, you however want everyone to believe that you believe that, while your actions toward others show that you yourself do not live it, so therefor you do not believe it.

Do as I say, not as I do, never really was a hit with most of us here.

Share your damn books all you want, but don't tell us that you are on a long enlightened path when it is obvious that you are on a very dark road which leads only to yourself.

Don't blame me if you don't like it.
Instead, change it, it is within your power to do so. "

The Curious wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:28 PM:

" sapient wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:05 AM:
" Susan, here I thought that the JG-TC wouldn't print any more of your letters.

That's what she said...now how much else of what she said does anyone believe? "

Billie Brant wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:31 PM:

" Rotty, Maybe you ought to get one of those "thongs" for men! LOL At least you won't be accused of being a redneck that doesn't wear underwear! LOL! "

arrogant wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:47 PM:

" You fools!

Your jesus may have said that he was the truth, the way, and the life.

But shumphreys and I know that he didn't really mean that!

He just meant that he was SOME of the truth, he was ONE of the ways, and he was one of MANY lives.

Why can't you stupid christians stop being so dad-blamed CHRISTIAN!

Listen to the goddess and me!

For shumphreys and I are the truth, the way, and the life. "

tammer65 wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:48 PM:

" Equalizer, I haven't even been posting on this site for 2 years, probably not even 1 year, but oh well, just lump me in with whomever you wish. "

arrogant wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:05 PM:

" shumphreys and Hahvahd are on their spiritual journey together towards the horizon.

They are in their convertible ala-Thelma and Louise, and I'm riding in the back ala-Brad Pitt.

We are rapidly blowing up dust clouds as we race ahead of all you less enlightened inbred half-wits and it doesn't really matter because we just can't seem to reach that darned horizon for some reason, and besides..... HEY!.....is that a cliff? "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:05 PM:

" If Humphreys is offended or feels convicted by the Bible verse I pasted in that is her pro0blem not mine I didn't write it but just used it in an applicable way to a fitting subject. Jesus also used Scripture when confronted by the devil. vtucker you need to get off that fence and take a stand one way or the other. "

CHILL! wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:08 PM:

" The Curious wrote on Jul 30, 2008 10:28 PM:
" sapient wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:05 AM:" Susan, here I thought that the JG-TC wouldn't print any more of your letters.

That's what she said...now how much else of what she said does anyone believe? "

How funny..I thought the same thing. "

Rotty wrote on Jul 30, 2008 11:13 PM:

" BOO!
LOL!
More testing!
LMAO!
.......
Thanks, Equalizer!
LOL!
Yep, I've been here since day one, since this JG-TC Comment area started, as have Early Bird, Billie, & a couple of others.
.......
Thanks, Billie!
LMAO!
Hey, can all of us here on this comment venue, ya know, all 6 of us, (hahahaha wink wink), come out & go skinny dippin in ya pool, for one last hoorah, before ya move?
LMAO!
.......
Good Night All.
:-) "

Forgiven wrote on Jul 31, 2008 1:00 AM:

" Part 1 of 2:

What an amazing letter. How can someone be so correct about something & so wrong about it's conclusion at the same time?

There are so many issues in this letter that I could write a book on it. If I did, would it make me an expert? If you read my book, & it had some real honest truth in it, does that mean that how and why I used the truth was correct? Has anyone here ever been deceived?

Deception is filled with truth. It's the 1% untruth, or the truth that is left out that causes the problem. In other words the truth is not the only issue. How it is used/presented is just as important if not more so.

Personally I am a Christian. Yes, I make mistakes all the time. Im not perfect yet, but God and I are still working on it. So why is it Christians are labeled as bad or hypocritical when they do something wrong? Is someone a bad atheist if they do something good or nice? Maybe the unbelievers have an unrealistic expectation of what a true Christian is. Maybe its a little to easy to grip and complain against others who are different than you. Trust me Humphreys you will never understand what being a Christian is by reading about it in a book. I do have to admit that Humphreys has some truth about some "Christians". The untruth here is that many of those people who go to church 3 or more times a week, and preach the Bible (truth), ARE NOT Christians. Yes they are very religious, call themselves Christians, & "Truthfully" believe that they are Christians. However, just because I act like a donkey, say I am a donkey, & truly believe I am a donkey, does that make me one? Yet believe it or not, some really educated people seem to think that if they read something written by an "expert", it must be true.

To Be Continued.... "

Forgiven wrote on Jul 31, 2008 1:05 AM:

" Part 2 of 2:

Yes there is truth in each and every religion. Even those religions that openly worship the devil have some truth. Actually, they have a lot of truth. So what is the difference? HOW THEY USE IT & that they add a little extra non-truth for some extra flavor. Why? Because people like it better that way.

God created gravity. No honest, If you don't believe it, just ask me and I'll tell ya:) Regardless of who you believe made the laws of the Universe, they are still there. They also apply to everyone. The same is true for those other laws like treating others as you want to be treated. If you follow the laws of God, you will receive the benefits. If you do not, you get the consequences. Just like gravity, rain,... it applies to the Christians and non-Christian alike. God wants us to follow the laws for our sake not His.

But here is where the whole Truth of Grace comes in. The Truth is, Grace is FREELY offered to everyone. Truth is also that most people will reject it. The truth is that too many people, including the very good & religious church going ones, will go to hell simply because they refused to accept the Free gift of Grace.

God did everything He could do. He even sent His only Son to die in our place, so that it would be free for us. The only thing He has not done is to force people to take His Grace against their free will. Some people are too proud to accept it, so they insist on trying to earn it instead. Some are like Humphreys, and are so damn educated that they cannot accept something simple unless an expert tells them to do so in a book. That makes it official you know. Others are just plan stubborn. Truth is, too many have chosen to go to hell because its just to appealing to take the advice of the worldly experts, and to convenient to blame God for the bad decision. "

Early Bird wrote on Jul 31, 2008 5:53 AM:

" Billie- my daughter recently took a trip to Greece. While there she went to a beach, and reports that all of the men, even those that appeared to be in their 80's were wearing thong style swim wear. She said it wasn't very pretty. I said I understood. "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:40 AM:

" Jesus calls for people to change, to admit their "sins" and try to do better the next time, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive others. I have done that and the postings show that. Confessions, if you believe in the Bible are to be made in private, between you and your God not in public. I will fall back into old habits now and then, it is hard not to when surrounded by hate, and Arrogant. Grace is about granting mercy, being LENIENT towards the sinful. At least I am making an attempt to move on and practice what Jesus and Lao Tzu and Buddha and others teach, what are the rest of you doing? "

Explorer wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:59 AM:

" http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/54959/the_similarities_in_all_major_world.html?cat=9

They all have different faces, but they are all essentially the same. "

VTucker wrote on Jul 31, 2008 8:16 AM:

" To arrogant:

That's right--hard as it is, we're supposed to "turn the other cheek." That's what Jesus said.

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

This is not a command to us, but a statement of what would happen when people converted to Christianity. It happened with the early Christians. You can see it happening in some countries today--for example, when people from a fundamentalist Islamic background convert to Christianity. Families are divided.

The early Christians were not the ones who took up the sword. They were the ones who were thrown to the lions. We have not been commanded to take up the sword, either. "

arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 8:36 AM:

" Let the public and legal record show that shumphreys and I believe that when jesus called people to follow him, it was really a suggestion and not a requirement.

The goddess and I think that j.c. would have been cool with any spiritual path as long as it was peaceful and enlightened.

shumphreys and I are pretty sure that j. christ would have been open to a smorgous board of spiritual beliefs as long as the end result was a peaceful Xanadu of hand holding world harmony.

shumphreys and I believe that j.c. would have said as much had he been more aware of the great spiritual paths that had existed way before his brand of belief system was introduced. We believe that if jesus had attended institutions of advanced learning like we did, that he could have received (lets say a Masters Degree) in maybe psychology and maybe earth-mother studies (for example) and that he would have been more inclusive in his presentation of his theories.

Yes, shumphreys and I are relatively certain that j.c. would have been down with the whole Buddism/ Hindu/ Agnostic/Earth Goddess/Wicca experiences because he could have picked and chosen many truths that he was unaware of and he could have opened his mind to a new age of spiritual inclusiveness.

Yep. shumphreys and I are pretty sure of this because we are more advanced in our horizontal spiritual journey than christ was. He was more vertical, with that whole crucifixion thing.

Any way, shumphreys and I have finally figured it all out. Yeah, it came to us as we resided here in Central Illinois one evening over a bowl of herbal goodness. We thought to ourselves, Hey, self, you got an advanced degree in psychobabble-ology-beliefs. If we write a book with all this brilliant insight, we can probably be the first in all of humanity to finally figure it all out, and maybe see our names in print as well! COOL!

So there you all have it. Listen to shumphreys and me. We are on a more advanced horizontal journey and we have college Degrees. What kind of degree did jesus christ ever earn? So you must all listen to us. "

Read all over wrote on Jul 31, 2008 8:37 AM:

" I find it interesting that despite the long history of ominous letters to the JG-TC on the subject of religion -- you're all going to hell, repent before it's too late, and son on -- I don't think I've ever read a single response from someone who was persuaded.

I'd encourage all the "believers" to respect our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and leave the rest of us alone. "

Elbert wrote on Jul 31, 2008 8:40 AM:

" I find it fascinating, and most unfortunate, to read the hate and venom that has spewed forth on this thread. The letter that caused invective, expressed a point of view. I would have hoped, as it turns out in vain, that others would respond to that point of view without name calling. And, the name calling is on both sides since apparently neither side can express their viewpoints without resorting to name calling.
My question to all of you who resort to these antics is whether this behavior is consistent with those beliefs that you hold dear? I find it difficult to believe that those that you believe the teachings of one or more of the following: Jesus, Buddha , the writers of the Old Testament or someone else, would use the tactics of hate and destroy that you use. Moreover, it is difficult to concentrate on the opinions of the writer when the writer is telling the person that THEY ARE DUMB AND STUPID FOR HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION. It is unfortunate, that most, but not all, have chosen hate and invective rather than logic, reason and love. Other than feeling good for the moment for having written some invective, I dont think you are doing anything to advance the cause that you believe in. And, to respond that they called me a name first, seems childish. "

deep thoughts 45 wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:05 AM:

" The problem with Susan's argument is that she decides what part of the Bible to believe and what part to leave out. She wants us to believe that love is everywhere and that God loves everybody and accepts everyone. The problem is that the loving your enemies comes from the Bible. Without the Bible there is no knowledge of God. I did not say that there would be no knowledge of some higher force or power in the universe but no knowledge of the biblical God. Jesus who is God stated that He is the ONLY WAY! Same bible that Susan quotes from but she chooses to believe that it is not true. Homosexuality is a sin and it says so in the bible. So is pre-marital sex and a cast of many others. The problem today is that we don't want to take responsibility for our sins and that we live in a country that is full of Pride! We are all sinners and we need a Saviour. If we don't repent as the bible says then we will all likewise perish as the bible says. The argument ends with the Bible. If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God then that's the end of the argument. If you don't then you will continue to argue with yourself, others and God until you are blue in the face. Jesus is coming back and when the people began to disappear like there's no tomorrow then we will all see that the one's still writting on this page must have been wrong. It is my prayer and hope that we all come to the knowledge of the truth before that day arrives. By the way, it isn't going to matter what you believe on that day. God will always be right! "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:59 AM:

" Finally we are getting somewhere. To The Curious I couldn't agree with you more when you said "Do as I say, not as I do, never really was a hit with most of us here." It isn't a hit with anyone. Until I could maneuver you into saying that and seeing ME practice it, you wouldn't accept it. Vicky, Tammer, M@H and I have been putting out that point from the beginning. The tragedy is that I had to "do unto others as they did unto me" in order to make the point concrete, visible, in your face. That is the only way some people will learn. Unfortunately there will be many here that still refuse to "get it". "

arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:00 AM:

" Yes Yes! VTucker is right! You stupid christians must all turn the other cheek.

Your christ would not want you to respond to the enlightened wisdom of shumphreys and me.

After all, your "apostles" never debated anyone who argued against their beliefs. The "apostles" never made judgemental statements about other peoples beliefs. You'll never read in you "bible" about any "apostle" EVER criticizing the "pagans" like the goddess and me.

You're absolutely right VTucker. Tell these inbred christians to shut up, sit down, and just take!

That's what their christ would want. He would want them to just remain silent. Everyone who knows the bible like we do, knows that. Go ahead. Tell them all Vtucker. "

shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:02 AM:

" Gulley and Mulholland see GRACE as a gift from God. I see GRACE as the gift we give ourselves that keeps on giving. Grace is forgiveness, mercy, and leniency. Grace is the compassion of the Buddha and what Jesus means when he says turn the other cheek.

Grace must first be granted to our selves before we will be able to grant it towards others. When I talk about moving beyond/transcending ones EGO that is what one needs to do in order to be able to extend GRACE towards others. Grace is what the Lords prayer is all about, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

AND yes GRACE is granted to everyone, if it is only granted to a select few than it isnt GRACE at all!

To All, I forgive you your trespasses against me. Are you willing to forgive mine against you? "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:12 AM:

" Forgiven...great posts and you make a lot of sense, thank you.
shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:40 AM:
You have done nothing of the sort shumphreys, you are words and hot air only. Just because you say you did something does not mean that you did.
If you said you died jumping off of a bridge, it may make it so in your mind, but we don't buy it.

In the same sense, asking for forgiveness is a state of mind which you do not know. The words mean nothing without the heart. And to grant forgiveness to those who never did anything to be forgiven for is also a state of mind, which you seem to live in. It's a slap in the face to those who did you no harm however.

You are still trying to show everyone how you are doing the right thing. If you were doing the right thing, you would not have to flaunt it and shove it down people's throats. Certainly you would not have to say many times how you were a good girl and did the right thing. A few thousand visits to a good therapist would do you a world of good, and would be much more enlightening than any books you read. I rest my case. "

Billie Brant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:20 AM:

" I hear ya EB! LOL! "

The Question wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:34 AM:

" The problem with Susan's argument is that she decides what part of the Bible to believe and what part to leave out.
-------
So do you, deep thoughts. So does everyone who claims to follow the Bible. I don't see many of you screaming that eating shrimp is an abomination, the way your infallible, eternal Bible says it is, for example.

Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
- Leviticus 11:12 "

The Question wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:38 AM:

" One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.
Carl Sagan "

father bob wrote on Jul 31, 2008 2:28 PM:

" deep thoughts 45 wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:05 AM:
" The problem with Susan's argument is that she decides what part of the Bible to believe and what part to leave out.""""

kind of like a christian. "

RJM wrote on Jul 31, 2008 2:32 PM:

" "Any way, shumphreys and I have finally figured it all out. Yeah, it came to us as we resided here in Central Illinois one evening over a bowl of herbal goodness. We thought to ourselves, Hey, self, you got an advanced degree in psychobabble-ology-beliefs. If we write a book with all this brilliant insight, we can probably be the first in all of humanity to finally figure it all out, and maybe see our names in print as well! COOL!" /////

Arrogant LMAO! Thanks for making this site fun! "

arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 3:36 PM:

" The Question is right.
You christians and your bible need to be consistent. We atheist demand it.

The Question and I have no such requirements. We can happily know that the universe just magically happened out of nothingness, even though we have never seen an empirical example of that before.

And The Question and I can believe that we atheists have morals genetically inborn in us even though that defies the very nature of differing morals throughout the history of civilization.

That's right. The Question and I can demand absolute consistent perfection from you christians and your fairy-tale book, while our own beliefs remain self-defeating and contradictory.

You tell em Question! "

Rotty wrote on Jul 31, 2008 4:48 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:59 AM:

"Finally we are getting somewhere. To The Curious I couldn't agree with you more when you said "Do as I say, not as I do, never really was a hit with most of us here." It isn't a hit with anyone."

.......

Good post, up to that point.

.......

shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:59 AM:

"Until I could maneuver you into saying that"

.......

You blew it there - back to square one.

.......

shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:59 AM:

"Vicky, Tammer, M@H and I have been putting out that point from the beginning. The tragedy is that I had to "do unto others as they did unto me" in order to make the point concrete, visible, in your face. That is the only way some people will learn."

.......

Now you know how others feel, but....

.......

shumphreys wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:59 AM:

"Unfortunately there will be many here that still refuse to "get it."

.......

Backatcha, toots.

.......

When we "ALL" learn to work together, as a team, & put aside the silliness, the hate, the "EGOS", & barbs of any kind, then maybe, just maybe, we can "ALL" begin to accomplish something.

Until then, it's back to square one, & nothing gets truely accomplished.

Then again, & in the end, I guess that's why there are open forum & comment venues. "

Equalizer wrote on Jul 31, 2008 4:54 PM:

" father bob wrote on Jul 31, 2008 2:28 PM:
" deep thoughts 45 wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:05 AM:
" The problem with Susan's argument is that she decides what part of the Bible to believe and what part to leave out.""""

kind of like a christian. "

Okay bob, did you not even read Forgiven's posts? LOL! "

Explorer wrote on Jul 31, 2008 4:55 PM:

" I CAN'T BELIEVE JG WOULD EVER POST SOMETHING THAT I DISAGREE WITH!

I was taught as a child that I should believe anybody talking with a cross behind him and he taught me that his book is better than every other book ever written. It does not matter that there are multiple versions of that book, or that many things in the second half of the book contradict things originally said in the first half of the book, it is ingrained for me to do and believe everything it says regardless of facts or the human thought and curiosity that God blessed us with ignoring.

You can show me any fossil evidence you've got, I know for a fact that Adam and Eve used to ride dinosaurs until the dinosaurs started engaging in homosexual acts and he sent them all to hell. Furthermore, I don't care what you can see in a telescope, even if it eventually shows evidence of other life, that is not evidence to me. That book told me that we are it. AND ANOTHER THING! Geology is stupid, the book told me a flood covered the entire world, I don't care if geology proves it was just a small portion of the Middle East.

In the future, please fact...I mean Bible check all of your article before posting. I swear, if I hear one more geographical "theory" that Jesus was actually dark skinned, and not white with blue eyes, I'm going to have to smite something!

In summation, ignore any intellectual curiosity you may ever have. It could just send you to hell. "

oblivious wrote on Jul 31, 2008 6:19 PM:

" arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 3:36 PM:

The Question and I have no such requirements. We can happily know that the universe just magically happened out of nothingness, even though we have never seen an empirical example of that before.

I don't think I've EVER seen the word "nothingness" used more times on one website than by Arrogant.

What I find even more funny is that he is scynical to the point that one might not even know which way he's going.

"even though we have never seen an empirical example of that before."

What??? How long has civilization been around? How long is that in the realm of the life of the planet? If you're an intelligent person (which you seem to be) what are the odds that out of an infinite number of planets, and an infinite nubmer of solar systems, that conditions could be perfect to support and create life? Pretty good, I'd say.

Where's the emperical evidence of God? One book. I rest my case. "

arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 6:24 PM:

" Listen up Explorer!

You should have grown out of your silly childhood beliefs! You should have let those innate morals kick in and tell you what is right and wrong.
If you would have listened to those inherited traits, you would have known that a man and a woman can lay with another man and or woman, or even a child, relative, or animal, and its ALL okay. Who is to judge after all? What you say is right is not what I say is right. Its all okay. See how much better things would be without your silly judgmental god?

Now if you had gone to college like The Question and shumphreys and I all did; then you would know that any professor behind a podium is all knowing, all wise and completely open-minded, with no hint of any kind of bias towards you simple-minded inbred christians.

Then you would have learned that the universe just happened out of sheer random nothingness. And that the strongest intangibles that govern all of humanity,
like morals, ethics, conscience and of course love; are all really just complete fairy-tales because there is no empirical evidence of such nonsense.

You would have learned that the gods of science can explain ALL. And that we know ALL there is to know about the universe, right now! And that nothing that we will ever learn from here on out will ever validate any kind of spooks in the sky! If we dont know it already; IT DOESNT EXIST! Unlike those past generations that knew nothing of the simple electron or atom or simple cell, and therefore wouldnt have believed in them because they had no proof. That cannot happen to us because WE KNOW ALL THERE IS TO EVER KNOW!

If you dont believe me then just ask shumphreys or The Question. Theyll straighten your simple closed-mind out. They will enlighten you.

Never believe what you cant see, and never see what you cant believe.

If you have never seen it; it cant possibly exist.
If you cant measure it; it just cant be real. "

arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:21 PM:

" oblivious said I seem to be an intelligent person.

OF COURSE I AM! I AM ENLIGHTENED TO THE NOTHINGNESS!

And your feeble little mind missed my point; the universe contains ALL planets and galaxies, known and unknown. And you and I "believe" that it just spawned from NOTHINGNESS, don't we?

And you speak of "infinity". How can anything be "infinite"?
Can you wrap your mind around "infinity"? How is that possible? How can something have no limits?

Now you're starting to talk as if there is an "infinite" energy source making an endless number of galaxies. How can that nonsense be?

That sounds too much like the work of a "god", you fool!

shumphreys, The Question, and I know there is no god, because we know, ALL there ever IS to know, right here and now.

You have chosen your name appropriately.

For you truly are, OBLIVIOUS! "

Explorer wrote on Jul 31, 2008 7:25 PM:

" I'm sorry arrogant, but I'm just going to have to judge you without acknowledging that someone may have a different opinion than the one a book a few profits wrote told me to have.

I'm going to have to completely hate your idea that love is something that only a man and woman can have. I don't care what you and your genetics have to say. And you are absolutely correct in stating that only Christians have morals, because morality is a gift from God to Christians that Jesus hands to us in our prayers. I know that because of all the atheists are out there killing people in the name of not God and bombing abortion clinics because they feel it was a message from no God. Funny how there are those extremes on both sides though...sorry that was a side note, the important thing is, is that only Christians have morals and I'm glad you realize that you East coast elitist.

And I'm glad you put every person who is not over-zealous like myself into one lump category of people who have no faith in anything. Because you are right. Scientist, doctors, or anyone who simply asks why should be punished for looking at their time on Earth and trying to understand more about themselves and the world they live in, instead of just saying "it's God's way" like I do. Why is never important. That is why I make a point to never look both ways when I cross the street, I don't have to, whatever happens is God's will.

But see, there is one thing that we both seem to agree on (the zealots and the anti-zealots) we both seem to have all the answers proving to both sides that we don't know anything.

But I'll tell you what, I'll take the side of a book over scientific reasoning any day. To me an object in motion will always stay in motion until God says stop. "

1 cav wrote on Jul 31, 2008 9:25 PM:

" VTucker wrote on Jul 30, 2008 5:00 PM:
" Ask yourself, 1 cav, "What would Jesus do?"
**********************
Maybe...Luke 22:35-36 ?
v36.. Then said HE unto them,But NOW, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip and he that hath NO SWORD, let him sell his garment, and buy one. "

Kelly Armor wrote on Jul 31, 2008 9:56 PM:

" For those who are posting that Christians have some kind of corner on morality, truth, and goodness, did you happen to catch this news report about the evangelical preacher in Alabama who killed his wife and stuffed her in the freezer because she found out he was sexually abusing one of their children? Check out CNN.com.

Here are the first few lines of the article: "An evangelical preacher killed his wife several years ago and stuffed her body in a freezer after she caught him abusing their daughter, according to police and court documents.

Anthony Hopkins, 37, was arrested Monday night at the Inspirational Tabernacle Church of God in Christ in Jackson, Alabama, just after he had delivered a sermon to a congregation that included his seven other children, officials said.

He faces charges including murder, rape, sodomy, sexual abuse and incest."

Wow, first the conservative Christian who went on a shooting rampage at a liberal church in Tennessee, and now this. Not such a good week of publicity for those calling themselves Christian, is it? "

tammer65 wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:15 PM:

" VTucker, is 1 cav's post about what you expected? People can always manage to find an isolated scripture, taken out of context, to support some particular view they have, all the while ignoring the larger message of the book. . . . "

arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:39 PM:

" You are confused Explorer.

You hate my idea that love is something that only a man and woman can have? Thats not what I said you silly little moralist.

I said there is no love. I said an insignificant human can LAY with any other insignificant human regardless of gender, age, or heredity. And insignificant humans can lay with animals if they choose.

I never said that anyone had morals, because morals do NOT exist. How can they? How can morals exist if there is no god? And since there is no god, there is no such thing as your morals.

We atheists arent killing anyone. We have merely determined that inviable globs of insignificant material, that you people call fetuses have no right to live. And they certainly have no soul because that is nonsense as well. And we have saved this meaningless world countless, expense and concern, by slicing, dicing, scraping, and sucking, these insignificant and troublesome masses of maternal growth out of the wombs of countless free and independent meaningless womens bodies. And dont try to hang the countless human atrocities of communism around our shoulders just because communists like Stalin tend to have an inclination towards atheism.

And the gods of science should always be listened too and never questioned. Their theories are always correct until they are proven false. That is why I believe them when they say that this grand universe of meaningless matter just randomly came about from nothingness.

You can have your book. I will take the side of scientific reasoning in this reasonless world any day. I know that the gods of science have answered all the mysteries that need to be answered. I know that there cant be a soul and I know that love cannot be supported by empirical evidence; so it cant be real. You see, the science gods have ALL the answers. They have answered everything, except how this universe was put into motion in the first place. To me an object that was put into motion must have put itself into motion. Isnt that what the science gods have told us?

Why dont you explore that for me Explorer.

And when you find the answer, keep it to yourself. Im more enlightened than you. Therefore, I have nothing to learn from your out-dated beliefs.

I am all knowing because I have told myself so. shumphreys and I will tell you that all wisdom is within. We are all our own little gods. We can pick and choose from all the worlds contradictory beliefs and create our own little inner kingdom, complete with our own set of intangible rules. "

arrogant wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:01 PM:

" Yes Yes Kelly you are right.

christians do have a general tendency to kill their spouses and put them in the freezer.

Especially those black christians like Mr. Hopkins.

I think we can safely assume that christians are bad, and those BLACK christians are REALLY bad.

Did you happen to read about any violence involving non-christians? Or does the media ever report on that?
I certainly hope not. As an atheist, I think I can assume my ilk are all pure as the driven snow. "

HerChild wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:13 PM:

" OMG! Kelly Armor is so wise!
Now I have a question for you Kelly.
Do you call yourself a human? "

The Curious wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:28 PM:

" To shumphreys
I read the dictionary and I agree with all it says and it treats all with equality and respect. I guess my long spiritual path is far longer than yours but let me help you get to where I am. Read the dictionary and then you will begin to understand all that I do. Good luck. "

what? wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:37 PM:

" It gets mighty hot in hell, a regular inferno. Yes, it's behooving of one to reserve a cloud now, with plenty of grapes. Just float around in the stench of those burning below, for eternity. "

Explorer wrote on Jul 31, 2008 11:56 PM:

" Oh Arrogant,

I have explored the Bible and I can't keep it to myself. I'm going to have to try again and push my beliefs on you one way or another.

Let's put love aside then. I can see it is nothing we can ever come to terms with. You need to understand. God can't stand homosexuality because as the Good Book says, man is above woman, so it is a clean system. If there are two men who are married, than who can hit who?

And I'm sorry, you can show me all the evidence that you would like. It's all in God's plan that he made specially for me when my parents original sinned in order to have me. Part of my mapped out life is to reach you Arrogant, and let you know, that God has a plan for you. Ever step you take He is there and when you only see one set of footprints, it is because He is actually lifting you up.

So what I'm saying is that if you don't change your ways, you could wind up going to Hell...despite the fact that God has a plan for you...he knows what you are going to say and do...so make your you make the right...decisions.

Please, for the sake of my stomach please don't use the word fetus. I prefer little miracles. And God has a one size fits all plan for little miracles. He wants those little miracles brought into the world no matter what. It doesn't matter if the mother's life is in jeopardy, if it is a crack baby, if the woman is actually a thirteen year old girl who was raped by a relative, or "parents" who were never given original sin education. (For some reason, none of them seem to listen to don't do it.) At any rate, God has a plan for those little miracles, usually to be raised in a situation that turns their life into a nightmare and they undoubtedly become criminals themselves...all part of God's plan!

I will always protect the little miracles until those little miracles turn gay or rob my house because they don't have money because the mom is using welfare for drugs.

Please Arrogant, turn away from science. It has done nothing for you. Ford didn't create the first mass assembly line, God created Ford and through Ford created the assembly line. God is also responsible for the build up of green house gases. It is one of the signs of Armageddon. I know that because some guy said God told him to tell the people this is going to happen.

I can't wait to be judged so that I can go to Heaven, where everything is perfect and not at all boring because of it's perfection the way God intended.

If I had to choose a meaningless life, I'm going to have to choose the life that says I am a puppet and God is my puppeteer to my ever choice over the one where I have a choice, but of course I didn't just choose that. God did.

Nice try Arrogant, your science hasn't made anything that can brain wash like my religion can. "

Rotty wrote on Aug 1, 2008 12:03 AM:

" Kelly & the Clueless News Network will truely show us all the true path to enlightment.

The brainwashed child sets upon us all her opened mind to true nothingness.

Hey Sue, is Kelly related to you? "

Forgiven wrote on Aug 1, 2008 1:04 AM:

" Ok, one last post and I'm done. Way too much negativity in here for me. People tend to become like those they associate with. When I hang around with those who use foul language, I tend to start using the bad language. When I hang around those who constantly complain, I start to complain as they do. Its human nature. In order for me to grow and act in a positive Christian way, I need to hang around those who act the way I want to act. I need a more encouraging and positive environment. Its called holding myself accountable for my own actions/choices.

One slight disagreement with the statement Humphreys made about Jesus calls for people to change....... Jesus does not call for people to change. When we come to Christ, He accepts us exactly the way we are. If we could do it ourselves we would not need His Grace in the first place, now would we. When we accept Jesus has our personal savior, He changes us from within. Ye shall know them by their fruits, is a result of what Christ does. All we need to do is to accept Him - and THEN GET OUT OF HIS WAY. He will do all the changing. Maybe refusing to get out of his way and trying to do it (earn it) for God, is the first thing we need to admit as our sin. Then because the next time we will be letting Jesus do it through us, He will do it correctly.

Being a Christian is a personal walk. Its also a daily walk (some times even a minute by minute walk). We are to get along with others, give to others, share the good new with others, and to forgive others who sin against us 7 X 70. For something thats not a team sport, thats a lot of group therapy. Its a personal thing because we are all different individuals. God already knows that. Yet the world seems to think that they have a corner on Gods truth, and that its their responsibility to hold the entire group of Christians accountable for any slight variation of this universal standard. If we step out of line even a fraction of an inch, someone is instantly there to slap us in the face. Of course we are then expected to turn the other cheek, so that others can join in the fun and beat us to death. Hey since the world doesnt think Christians are allowed to walk away, do you think that maybe we could be allowed to just move out of the way once in a while? Or is that to much leniency for the world to grant Christians? We are all trying to do better. Some of us just do a better job than others. (Unfortunately some do a better job of acting than others.) Welcome to the human race. Now ask yourself the questions, is what I am doing really better, or is it just better because it is easier to accept than the truth.

Yes, Grace is about granting Mercy. But can good parents teach their children the difference between right and wrong by always granting Mercy? Absolutely. However, sometimes parents need to provide a little bit of firm guidance along with that forgiveness/Mercy. Correct the wrong behavior, while forgiving the child/person. Remember, God is also referred to as our Heavenly Father. (How does that image affect your ego:) Spare the rod, spoil the child. I think we got a lot of spoiled children out there, and most of them are well over 21 years of age. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 1, 2008 1:21 AM:

" Oh Explorer, I'm not about to let you brainwashed god worshipers threaten us non-believers with your beliefs

I'm afraid we non-believers will shout you down every time we even sense that a bible has been opened. We can't let it go. shumphreys, The Question, and myself aren't about to tolerate any of your intolerance. And we're certainly not going to let you express your beliefs with shouting out our own disbeliefs. After all, our non-belief system might just weaken and we might actually, believe. Thats the threat we fear.

I'm glad you put love aside. Because that is the key to all. You see, without love, there is no god, there are no morals, there is no meaning.

And of course, there is no purpose.
And without purpose, there is no reasoning.

And there is no reason to find anything sacred. Especially those little globs of fetal material.

We atheist have found that if we can find one reason to terminate them; then we can always find numerous reasons to terminate them.

And if we can terminate meaningless life at it's beginning; then why not terminate meaningless life towards its end.

And if we can terminate meaningless life at it's beginning and end; then why not terminate it when it's meaninglessness is deemed more meaningless than most.

It's amazing what we can do with no set principles to guide us, isn't it.

See how liberating and enlightening life can be without morals? When it is meaningless?

See how our science can turn all that is not tangible; all that cannot be supported by empirical evidence into nothingness?

See how our science has in fact, become our religion? See how we accept the scientific contradiction that the universe somehow created itself.

See how we claim that the principles of right and wrong known as "morals" are innate to all humanity; when humanity has never been able to agree on its own innate principles? See how there is no innate "morality"?

Nice try Explorer, but nothing can make life as meaningless as my science can. "

Kelly Armor wrote on Aug 1, 2008 6:35 AM:

" To Rotty, why are you bringing up CNN? They aren't even mentioned on this thread. Oh, yeah -- you're referring to postings on the thread that just disappeared, where I mentioned the NBC News report, corroborated on CNN, PBS.com, and a host of other sources, regarding the testimony before Congress on our own soldiers having raped over 2,000 -- 33% -- of our women soldiers, possibly even twice that many, according to doctors involved who suspect massive under-reporting. You'd rather shoot the messenger than open your eyes. So typical.

Anyone wishing to see the fuller details can find my posts in the archives by searching for Janet Bough's letter (I used the Keyword "Henry" to find it), or can find the articles themselves on military rapes on cnn.com, pbs.org, msnbc.com, npr.org, boston.com, washingtonpost.com, or numerous other sources. "

cav wrote on Aug 1, 2008 7:22 AM:

" tammer65 wrote on Jul 31, 2008 10:15 PM:
" VTucker, is 1 cav's post about what you expected? People can always manage to find an isolated scripture, taken out of context, to support some particular view they have, all the while ignoring the larger message of the book. . . . "
********************************
Do you have any idea what Jesus is telling his Disciples,in Luke 22:36 ??
I assume you didn't,but you may not be VTucker. "

cav wrote on Aug 1, 2008 9:07 AM:

" Exodus 33:19
will be Gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Genesis 19:24-25
Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;and he overthrew those cities,and all the plain,and all the INHABITANTS of the cities,and that which grew upon the ground.
**********************
Maybe some here should read the whole Bible,not just the parts they like about love. In the short dispensation of time when God walked among men,some take what they like and ignore the rest. ? "

oblivious wrote on Aug 1, 2008 10:20 AM:

" Nicely said Explorer.

Arrogant, your title fits you very nicely as well.

I think the one thing you miss when it comes to Atheists is that you think we are very close minded when in fact, most of us have at least a little time with the bible if not a lot. I have spent plenty of time studying the bible and considered myself at one time to be a saved Christian.

Given that, I have matured over the years and educated myself on many levels and I believe what I believe based upon the facts that I've gathered over the years. You can believe what you want to believe, I'm not trying to change anyone here. I am very open minded to the thoughts of a God that created everything...Just show me some concrete evidence besides a book that was written some 3000 years ago.

What many Christians fail to realize is that one does not chose his religion...it choses you. You didn't come sliding out of your mother's womb longing for God. You were brought up to believe that, and had you been born in Afghanistan you would have been brought up to believe in Allah and you would've been bashing non-believers there just like you are here. I guess, YOUR god is an "Arrogant" fan and WANTED you to believe in HIM and not Allah so he directed your body to come out your mother's womb and not some poor lady's in the Middle East...some people have all the luck. "

The Question wrote on Aug 1, 2008 10:56 AM:

oblivious wrote on Aug 1, 2008 12:03 PM:

" I think this is my favorite passage in the bible. Your god is such a kind god. Thank "nothingness" that most Christians don't live the bible literally.

Deuteronomy 13 (Contemporary English Version)
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Copyright 1995 by American Bible Society

Deuteronomy 13
Don't Worship Other Gods
Moses said to Israel:
1-2 Someday a prophet [a] may come along who is able to perform miracles or tell what will happen in the future. Then the prophet may say, " Let's start worshiping some new gods--some gods that we know nothing about." 3 If the prophet says this, don't listen! The LORD your God will be watching to find out whether or not you love him with all your heart and soul. 4You must be completely faithful to the LORD. Worship and obey only the LORD and do this with fear and trembling, 5because he rescued you from slavery in Egypt. If a prophet tells you to disobey the LORD your God and to stop worshiping him, then that prophet is evil and must be put to death.
6-10Someone else may say to you, " Let's worship other gods." That person may be your best friend, your brother or sister, your son or daughter, or your own dear wife or husband. But you must not listen to people who say such things. Instead, you must stone them to death. You must be the first to throw the stones, then others from the community will finish the job. Don't show any pity.

The gods worshiped by other nations have never done anything for you or your ancestors. People who ask you to worship other gods are trying to get you to stop worshiping the LORD, who rescued you from slavery in Egypt. So put to death anyone who asks you to worship another god. 11And when the rest of Israel hears about it, they will be afraid, and no one else will ever do such an evil thing again.

12After the LORD your God gives you towns to live in, you may hear a rumor about one of the towns. 13You may hear that some worthless people have talked everyone there into worshiping other gods, even though these gods had never done anything for them. 14You must carefully find out if the rumor is true. Then if the people of that town have actually done such a disgusting thing in your own country, 15you must take your swords and kill every one of them, and their livestock too. 16-17Gather all the possessions of the people who lived there, and pile them up in the marketplace, without keeping anything for yourself. Set the pile and the whole town on fire, and don't ever rebuild the town. The whole town will be a sacrifice to the LORD your God. Then he won't be angry anymore, and he will have mercy on you and make you successful, just as he promised your ancestors. 18That's why you must do what the LORD your God says is right. I am giving you his laws and teachings today, and you must obey them. "

VTucker wrote on Aug 1, 2008 12:32 PM:

" From ANSWERING ISLAM:

"Jesus frequently used physical objects (seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep and so on) to teach nonphysical, universal truths, and the same is true with the two swords in this passage. Though Luke 22:36 is not a parable, Jesus is about to instruct the disciples, using two physical swords, on how not to behave when they go out into the highways preaching the gospel after his Resurrection. They will not need swords when Jesus is arrested, and they will not need them even if they suffer persecution later on. Hence, the physical swords teach this nonphysical and universal truth based on Jesus telling Peter to put away his sword in the Garden during Jesus arrest: no violence should be used to spread the word of the true God. Later tradition supports this interpretation, saying that all of the original apostles but John were martyred as a direct result of persecution (John died from natural causes of old age, but he was imprisoned for his faith on the Island of Patmos), but none of them fought or even tried to fight his way out of his fiery trials with swords. Evidently, the example of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane made an impression on them. To repeat, that is the message of Jesus when he tells Peter in the Garden, "No more of this!" That is, "Never use a sword again!"

As noted, the early history of the church supports this symbolic meaning of swords in Luke 22:36 in its larger context. In the Book of Acts, which records some of the history of the church after the Resurrection, the disciples never swing a sword. Bloody warfare is excluded as they spread the message of the kingdom of God, throughout the larger Mediterranean world by peaceful proclamation alone."

Those who wish to spread Christianity by force have no basis for doing so, based on the model set time and again by Jesus and his followers.

When Jesus' followers tried to convert people, they did not insult or argue with those who did not accept what they had to say. They presented the message, then allowed their listeners to accept or reject it. Often the rejection included persecution. According to the Bible, which I'm assuming you accept, there was no retaliation by those who called themselves followers of Christ. "

CHILL! wrote on Aug 1, 2008 12:49 PM:

" This just burns me up, I gotta go CHILL! "

Just a Soldier wrote on Aug 1, 2008 2:27 PM:

" I don't remember who brought it up, and I don't really feel like skimming back through to find it, but I like the idea of everyone meeting face-to-face. I think it would be interesting to see if the discussions became as heated or if people are capable of being more civil in person. It would also be interesting to see if enough people showed up to dispel some of the multiple personality conspiracies. Though I would suspect that even if people showed up claiming each identity there would be those claiming that it is the same poster who simply brought along friends to cover their tails. Doesn't matter, it will never happen. "

Explorer wrote on Aug 1, 2008 4:34 PM:

" haha..."Truth" be told, The subject doesn't interest me whatsoever. I'm a strong proponent of the Bill of Rights, believe what you'd like (with or without God). I just enjoy getting closed-minded folks to talk around in circles. "

The Cleveland Steamer wrote on Aug 1, 2008 4:41 PM:

" Just a Soldier. Use Control-F. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 1, 2008 4:50 PM:

" Yes my name does fit me well.

oblivious shumphreys said "I am very open minded to the thoughts of a God that created everything...Just show me some concrete evidence besides a book that was written some 3000 years ago."

You silly silly goddess, you.

The Question and I know that an open mind to a "god" is an empty mind. A brainwashed mind. A simple mind. A narrow mind. An unscientific mind.

There is absolutely no concrete evidence that a "god" created the universe. The Question and I know that the universe just somehow randomly happened out of concrete nothingness.

And we also know that there is no such thing as "morals" or "souls" or "love".
Just show me some concrete evidence if there is.

oblivious shumphreys is oblivious to the enlightenment that The Question and I possess.

Concrete proof is all that I seek. Proof that there is a "god". Proof that there is a "soul". Proof that "morals" are innate. Proof that "love" is real. Proof that this life has meaning. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 1, 2008 6:12 PM:

" To Arrogant I am afraid you have met your match with Explorer. I approve of what he says. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 1, 2008 6:22 PM:

" To Oblivious I am afraid Arrogant has gotten bamboozeled. He says that I said something that I think you said. He is easily confused. For him life has no meaning. But not for those (like me and a few others) who have found their way with or without a God. "

The Question wrote on Aug 1, 2008 6:58 PM:

" There is absolutely no concrete evidence that a "god" created the universe. The Question and I know that the universe just somehow randomly happened out of concrete nothingness.
-----------------
A slight correction, Comrade Arro. There is no evidence that any god created the universe, period, whether the supposed evidence is concrete or made of Jello. Nor is there any evidence for your theories about the universe randomly happening of out nothingness. "

just wondering wrote on Aug 1, 2008 7:56 PM:

" Oblivious, I would think since most of the things you want proof of happened about 3000 years ago, the most reliable source would be something written during that time. I would take more stock in writings while an event happened than one written many years after. The fact that the old writer might have a better memory. Someone also mentioned turning the other cheek. But after you do that once there are no other cheeks to turn, at least not the ones he was talking about. Arrogant, good to see you are on the job trying to help the poor lost souls in here. "

Just a Soldier wrote on Aug 1, 2008 8:34 PM:

" From what I could find, Equalizer brought up the idea of having a meeting place for anyone interested in some other thread, which was referenced in this thread. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 1, 2008 9:13 PM:

" Question, you fool!

You are a pathetic excuse for an atheist. I think your brains are made of jello.

Of course the universe just somehow randomly happened out of concrete nothingness. How else could it have happened? Explain how all of this "something" started.

First you mumble your idiotic nonsense about "innate morals" and now you reject the obvious explanation of our meaningless origins. You are beginning to sound more and more like a pudding brained bible believer. Pathetic!

What's next? Would you like to come over to my exquisite estate and display your precious photos of your off-spring, as you attach some sort of intangible nonsense to their occurrence in your meaningless life; say for instance "love"?

You and I Question, really need to head out to the nursing homes and hospitals, and maybe tag along with the hospice workers, so we can let all those who are suffering and dying know that there is absolutely NO concrete evidence of any so-called "god"!
And once we get their suffering and terminally ill minds right; then maybe they can get on with their business of rapidly dying a meaningless, pointless, and empty death. I think it would help to reinstate your sensible mind back to the empirical realm.

And oblivious humphreys, you are wrong. No namby pamby "christian" can ever get the better of my superior atheistic intellect. For I have the gods of science on my side. And they have granted me the grace of empirical evidence to understand ALL that is truthful. And no little explorer could possible teach me anything that I don't already know. For I am ENLIGHTENED, you cretin.

This attention does please me to no end. Especially from you, oblivious humphreys. Many is the time that you have sworn away from my brilliant posts. And many is the time that you have been compelled to reply. HAHAHA.
You, oh goddess, have truly met more than your match in me.

If you have any hint of wisdom in your tiny cranium, oblivious humphreys; you will sit down, shut up, and learn from my wise, poignant, and impressive insight.

Notice how I can pick your puny brain apart, no matter what title you choose. That is just how brilliant I am.

You two are fools, diverging away from you original enlightenment and inching ever closer to a world of make-believe spooks in the sky and fairy-tale pixie dust. How long must this meaningless nothingness of a random universe suffer you to fools? "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 1, 2008 9:33 PM:

" To Forgiven, actually Jesus calls on people to make radical changes. He tells the rich man to giveaway all his wealth, he tells the fishermen to drop their nets and become fishers of men, he tells the son to leave the dead to bury the dead (in other words to abandon his family obligations and loved ones), and he tells the sinner to go and sin on more. Those are all calls for people to make very radical changes in their lives. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 1, 2008 9:42 PM:

" To Just Wondering, I would also take stock in things written at the time an event occured. None of the Biblical accounts of Jesus were written by anyone who actually witnessed the event first hand. Biblical scholarship and a good teaching Bible, I use the Harper Collins Study Bible, can fairly accurately identify the time frame passages or books were written. Other books, historical accounts, give Jesus very little mention if any. Then you always face the problem of whether a book was written by the winners or losers in a war, accounts and "facts" can be quite varied or whether something was written for political reasons such as propaganda. We know from more recent history that governments sometimes mislead, conceal, twist the truth to suit their purposes. A reader has to be very discriminating, check other sources, and take nothing on face value. "

oblivious wrote on Aug 1, 2008 10:01 PM:

" just wondering wrote on Aug 1, 2008 7:56 PM:

" Oblivious, I would think since most of the things you want proof of happened about 3000 years ago, the most reliable source would be something written during that time. I would take more stock in writings while an event happened than one written many years after. The fact that the old writer might have a better memory. Someone also mentioned turning the other cheek. But after you do that once there are no other cheeks to turn, at least not the ones he was talking about. Arrogant, good to see you are on the job trying to help the poor lost souls in here."

That's great in theory, however, what was written in the bible was written some 80 years or so after the events actually happened. Can you imagine Someone now, even with the technology and intelligence we have today, writing about something that happened in 1930 and writing accurately about it?

Arrogant Wrote:
There is absolutely no concrete evidence that a "god" created the universe. The Question and I know that the universe just somehow randomly happened out of concrete nothingness.

There is pretty solid proof that the earth has been around for billions and billions of years...but to think in the (I'm guessing) 40 or so years that you've been alive, you've figured out that this magical entitity called God, created everything...kudos.
Humans have yet to understand just exactly what has happened in the billions of years before modern mankind started walking this earth. I'm not pretending to tell you I know the process in which humans came to be...I simply don't believe that some entity said, "poof, I give you man." Given that modern science and technology has only been around for about a hundred years, mankind hasn't even begun to crack the mystery of the origin of humans...but when they do, the religous community will be in shock. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 2, 2008 12:03 AM:

" Yes yes, oblivious shumphreys is right.

The gods of science are a 100 years young, but surely, certainly, probably, perhaps, possibly, maybe, hopefully, they will rewrite their own rules and completely refute their own current physical laws and defy all logic and here-to-fore knowledge, and conclude; well yes, the universe did created itself.

I believe you are right, oblivious shumphreys. The Question believes you are right oblivious shumphreys. We all believe, oblivious shumphreys. We all have (dare I say) "faith", oblivious shumphreys; that that will be the case.

But, oblivious shumphreys, if, again I say, IF, that becomes the case;

then every single tenet of modern science that we all currently accept as concrete fact will be completely contradicted and thrown to the wind.

And if THAT is the case, then the present gods of science are currently- WRONG.

I'm afraid that, oblivious shrumpheys, The Question, and I, have just found ourselves stuck in the cognitive quicksand of a "catch 22".

hmmm. This IS a quandary. "

The Question wrote on Aug 2, 2008 10:06 AM:

" The Sumerian Gilgamesh epic is older than the Bible. So by Wondy's standard, that would mean its account of the universal flood story must be more reliable than the later Noah myth in the Bible, wouldn't it? "

injustice85 wrote on Aug 2, 2008 8:16 PM:

" Beautiful letter, we are full of these Sunday goers who feel like that hour they spend out of bed redeems them from the sins and judgements they lay down all week long. Being held high in God's eye is being a good respectful person all the time and feeling true guilt when we make mistakes. A wonderful much needed letter by Susan. "

just wondering wrote on Aug 3, 2008 9:49 AM:

" Well obvious and shumphries, if you can't depend on anything written then, how can you trust anything written after that. Using your own "logic", and with this I use the term loosely, you sure can't trust anything written this long since the occurance. Of course I am sure you will find some way to explain it that makes sense to you. "

HerChild wrote on Aug 3, 2008 1:41 PM:

" Kelly...
That Christian guy only killed his wife, and he froze her instead of leaving her there to slowly rot.

These goddess worhippers stampeded & killed 145 people who were on their way to worhip, and countless got injured in different severities.

"Deadly stampedes are a relatively common occurrence at temples in India, where large crowds sometimes hundreds of thousands of people congregate in small areas lacking facilities to control such big gatherings."

What does this tell you about goddess worshipers who kill each other daily to worship a dead goddess versus Christians? "

HerChild wrote on Aug 3, 2008 1:55 PM:

" http://tinyurl.com/58d5ah "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 3, 2008 7:01 PM:

" To Just Wondering I said readers have to become discriminating readers, looking for proofs in other sources, searching for commonalities--Universal Truths, they need to learn to check their sources, and check their facts. Nothing should ever be taken on face value. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 3, 2008 7:08 PM:

" To Her Child deadly stampedes are also common at Soccer games, people have been trampled to death during the Hajij (sp?), Catholics have smothered people to death trying to get close to the Pope, crowd control at American patriotic events and rock concerts is a major concern,...this is a commentary on human nature not on the "God or Goddess", rock star, soccer team, president or Pope, being worshipped. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 3, 2008 7:11 PM:

" Arrogant wrote, they (as in scientists, I think is his meaning) will rewrite their own rules and completely refute their own current physical laws and defy all logic and here-to-fore knowledge, and conclude; well yes, the universe did create itself.

Believing that a god created the universe defies all logic and here-to-fore knowledge. Faith in a God has nothing to do with logic, or facts. Understanding that at this point in time we dont have all the facts to determine the first cause is logical, in congruence with here-to-fore knowledge, and the laws as we now understand them of how the universe works. The first cause could be that happy accident in a primordial cosmic soup, the result of a collision between a black hole and an asteroid or a space probe from some distant galaxy or our own future as shown in the genesis project in an old Star Trek movie.

In the future when some new understanding leads us to change our perceptions, it wont change the physical laws, gravity will still be gravity, electrons and neutrons will still be what they are, the laws of thermodynamics will still work, the law of relativity will still be as confusing to non-scientists as it is today, what we will come to understand is how all the pieces fit together, how gravity, electricity, thermodynamics and atomic theories join up, the unified theory that Einstein was searching for at his death.

I think a good analogy might be the concept of the jigsaw puzzle where we no longer have the box the puzzle came in so we have no idea if this is a 500 piece puzzle or a 1000 piece puzzle. We know how many pieces we have BUT we dont know how many pieces we are missing, we know how some pieces fit together BUT not quite how they all fit together, we have too many pieces that dont connect to anything, YET.

I dont see this as the cognitive quick sand of a Catch 22. "

Kelly Armor wrote on Aug 3, 2008 7:13 PM:

" HerChild: that "Christian guy," as you call him, was a minister with an active congregation -- he was supposed to be leading his flock to spiritual truth, all the while with his murdered wife in his freezer and his daughter suffering the life-long affects of being abused by her father! He's going around, leading the life of a pious Christian, supposedly leading others to salvation even though he's a murderer and incestuous, child molester! I bet he had plenty to say to his flock about atheists and others who hadn't found salvation yet. Oh, and how good of him to freeze his wife, rather than leaving her to rot, as you pointed out. But it's ever-so-much easier to condemn other religions than to examine the rotten core of Christianity, isn't it! "

The Question wrote on Aug 3, 2008 8:01 PM:

" " Kelly...
That Christian guy only killed his wife, and he froze her instead of leaving her there to slowly rot..."
--------
Gosh, what a ringing defense of Christianity. Must make you proud to be a Christian. They know the proper, moral way to murder their spouses, don't they? "

arrogant wrote on Aug 3, 2008 9:13 PM:

" Yes yes, oblivious shumphreys is right.

The laws of physics will never change!

I couldnt agree more, my sensible goddess.

But, oblivious shumphreys, IF our universe did come about by a happy accident in a primordial cosmic soup, the result of a collision between a black hole and an asteroid or a space probe from some distant galaxy or our own future, then: how did that primordial cosmic soup come about in the first place? How did the black hole come about? How did the asteroid come about? How did the space probe come about? How did the distant galaxy come about? How would our own future come about?

You see oblivious shumphreys, no matter what elements caused the universe to come about; what caused those elements to come about in the first place?

No matter how many steps or events it took; something had to start ALL of it rolling. And that something HAD to be infinite!

The unmovable concrete laws of physics demand that it be so!

Please oblivious shumphreys, you must help me with this.

The atheist in me is beginning to have doubts!

I MUST believe that the universe created itself!

I must believe! I must believe!

I have faith that it did!

Help my faith, oblivious shumphreys. "

oblivious wrote on Aug 3, 2008 9:50 PM:

" arrogant wrote on Aug 3, 2008 9:13 PM:
I MUST believe that the universe created itself!
I must believe! I must believe!
I have faith that it did!
Help my faith, oblivious shumphreys. "

I guess God created himself as well, right? So what does an entity like God need to create all this universe stuff for anyway. He is perfect in every single way so being perfect, why would he feel the need to create everything that he did, AND being omnipotent he would know before creating us that we would sin, right? And, he would also know, I mean, being omnipotent and all, that he would create people who would ultimately spend eternity in hell. Knowing everything that God knows...why in the heck would he create anything in the first place? This loving, all knowing, omnipresent, omnibenevolent God, created all this misery for his own enjoyment? I don't get it. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 3, 2008 11:19 PM:

" I guess God created himself as well, right?

No oblivious shumphreys, and that's the problem here; a "god" would be "infinite".

And the christians claim that their god IS the alpha and the omega = infinite.

And the gods of science tell us (and quite emphatically I might add) THAT;

Energy and matter can NEVER be destroyed. It can only be transformed from one form to another. PERIOD. END OF STORY. CASE CLOSED. FINITO.

And this entire universe (including you and me oblivious shumphreys) is energy/matter.

We obviously CAME from an infinite form of energy didn't we, oblivious shumphreys. The gods of science through their grace of physics have deemed it so.

And our form of energy/matter can be less and incomplete from the original source; but our form can NEVER be GREATER or even equal in quality or quantity to the original source.

And what's more: that infinite energy must have an intellect, oblivious shumphreys; because WE have an intellect.

And that infinite energy must "possess" something called (gulp) "love", oblivious shumphreys; because WE possess some sort of nonsense WE call "love".

And we have the ability to reason; therefore our original source MUST have the ability to reason.

When you add this ALL up, oblivious shumphreys, it leads to only ONE conclusion.

Some ultimate source of infinite energy, that has an intellect, that is capable of "love, that is capable of reasoning;

made us from itself.

And the problem is OUR lesser reasoning is too limited to know the complete- REASONS.

GULP!

I have to go to bed now! My head is spinning!

My atheism is in mortal combat with the gods of science!

The gods of science are screaming "We are PROOF that there IS a God!"

I'm afraid that this cognitive dissonance is more than I can bear right now.

I used to believe:

I think. Therefore I am.

But now I'm beginning to wonder if:

God is. Therefore I think. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 6:47 AM:

" To Arrogant we can go round and round for ever about what caused what first. If God created the earth, Where did God come from? I can answer that question, God was created in man's image, from man's imagination, hopes, fears, and dreams. Either you believe in a God/s or you don't. That is purely a matter of faith and has nothing to do with reality, facts, logic, a book, or reasoning. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 7:29 AM:

" To Her Child I just read the news article about the stampede at the Hindu Temple. Your comments "what does this tell you about goddess worshipers who kill each other daily to worship a dead goddess versus Christians?" is as RACIST a comment as Jack Pierces letter. It shows us a great deal about the type of "Christian" that you are, and I put "Christian" in quotes because I don't want to insult those that are "TRUE" Christians. Christianity is about love for others, love is about compassion, concern for others who are hurting or have been caught up in a terrible tragedy. IF you are a Christian you are one in name only. "

father bob wrote on Aug 4, 2008 9:33 AM:

" it's all the fault of homosexuals "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 11:08 AM:

" shumphreys, here you are again taking things out of context in your comment to Her Child. I see exactly where Her Child is coming from, but not you, no.
Because you choose to ignore the posts that Kelly Armor wrote earlier...the ones that Her Child is responding to.
This is exactly what you do all the time.
Ignore the poster who posts to your benefit, and tear apart the responding poster. "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 11:14 AM:

" Kelly Armor wrote on Jul 31, 2008 9:56 PM:
" For those who are posting that Christians have some kind of corner on morality, truth, and goodness, did you happen to catch this news report about the evangelical preacher in Alabama who killed his wife and stuffed her in the freezer because she found out he was sexually abusing one of their children? Check out CNN.com.

Here are the first few lines of the article: "An evangelical preacher killed his wife several years ago and stuffed her body in a freezer after she caught him abusing their daughter, according to police and court documents.

Anthony Hopkins, 37, was arrested Monday night at the Inspirational Tabernacle Church of God in Christ in Jackson, Alabama, just after he had delivered a sermon to a congregation that included his seven other children, officials said.

He faces charges including murder, rape, sodomy, sexual abuse and incest."

Wow, first the conservative Christian who went on a shooting rampage at a liberal church in Tennessee, and now this. Not such a good week of publicity for those calling themselves Christian, is it? " "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 11:15 AM:

" Kelly Armor wrote on Aug 3, 2008 7:13 PM:
" HerChild: that "Christian guy," as you call him, was a minister with an active congregation -- he was supposed to be leading his flock to spiritual truth, all the while with his murdered wife in his freezer and his daughter suffering the life-long affects of being abused by her father! He's going around, leading the life of a pious Christian, supposedly leading others to salvation even though he's a murderer and incestuous, child molester! I bet he had plenty to say to his flock about atheists and others who hadn't found salvation yet. Oh, and how good of him to freeze his wife, rather than leaving her to rot, as you pointed out. But it's ever-so-much easier to condemn other religions than to examine the rotten core of Christianity, isn't it! " "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 11:19 AM:

" shumphreys, with that said,
you completely ignored Forgiven's first two posts, I guess they were too long for you to even read. Or do you KNOW that Forgiven is quite educated in these matters and so anything you answer would only prove how really uneducated you are? "

oblivious wrote on Aug 4, 2008 11:24 AM:

" Genius, pure genius. I just think it's incredible how arrogant humans are to think they we have been chosen to be created. That out of the billions and billions of stars, planets, moons, etc...that everything revolves around Earth and humans, and this God fellow. Proof isn't you reasoning that all these things happened so there MUST be a God. Fact is, you believe what you feel is the truth, and honestly nobody knows for sure how everthing was created or how we came to be. I have the balls to admit that.

If God wants everyone to believe in him and worship him then have him come out and say it. Instead he "created" the human mind to think logically, and all the inputs that our bodies receive everyday...what we see, feel, smell, taste, and hear, go against the human mind believing in an imaginary entity that is in control. Why didn't he create the mind with that 6th sense so everyone would simply know to believe.

Again, I ask if God is perfect then he has no wants or needs. Why create the Earth, people, etc... knowing that there would be untold misery and suffering. If he did in fact, create this Earth, one could liken him to a kid with a magnifying glass and a bunch of ants.

I don't look down on someone who believes there's a god. I used to be there myself. I simply believe that as a very young spiecies (compared to the life of this planet) we can't possibly have all the answers. You, arrogant, obviously have all the answers. "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 11:28 AM:

" shumphreys,

HerChild wrote on Aug 3, 2008 1:41 PM:
" Kelly...
That Christian guy only killed his wife, and he froze her instead of leaving her there to slowly rot.

These goddess worhippers stampeded & killed 145 people who were on their way to worhip, and countless got injured in different severities.

"Deadly stampedes are a relatively common occurrence at temples in India, where large crowds sometimes hundreds of thousands of people congregate in small areas lacking facilities to control such big gatherings."

What does this tell you about goddess worshipers who kill each other daily to worship a dead goddess versus Christians? "

HerChild wrote on Aug 3, 2008 1:55 PM:
" http://tinyurl.com/58d5ah "

shumphreys,
I believe that Her Child's above response to Kelly's two posts above it is a good one due to blatant attack on Christianity because of one person who called himself a Christian. Point taken.

Perhaps a little acceptance of others' opinions, equality, and respect on your part would equally be good, since that is what you claim you hold, yet you do not. Your intolerance to others is quite overwhelming. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 12:15 PM:

" To Arrogant, to address a couple of your points,1. energy, that energy source might just be that "black hole" in space, and look nothing like a white haired gentleman in a flowing robe that is all knowing, all seeing and all powerful.From what I understand of black holes they are nothing but highly compressed, probably absolute zero, energy 2. intelligence, appears to also have evolved along with the evolution of our species. So if we were created in Gods image just what would that image be? An amoeba, a virus, the primate type ancestor that we have evolved from. 3. because we have an intellect, can reason, can love, feel emotions, doessn't lead to ONE conclusion, or at least to the conclusion you have drawn. My dogs have an intellect, they can reason, they can love and they show emotions, therefore is GOD a dog? 4. finally even if God existed at one time there isn't any reason to believe that he/she still exists, God could have given his all, blown himself up in the explosion that set off the Big Bang. As I said, there is no proof that God exists, or once existed, if you or anyone wants to believe in a God that is your choice and purely a matter of faith. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 12:37 PM:

" No, oblivious shumphreys, we cannot go round and round for ever about what caused what first.

You apparently have not grasped what the gods of science teach.

Energy/matter is INFINITE.

The energy that this universe came from, IS INFINITE.

Infinity, by it's very definition has NO BEGINNING AND NO END.

You seem to be unable to comprehend this very basic principle of physics, oblivious shumphreys.

This is not a matter of speculation, opinion, or faith.

This is a matter of FACT, my dear goddess.

You seem to be lacking a very fundamental aspect of scientific logic and reasoning in your "horizontal" spiritual journey.

Your "horizontal" trajectory seems to be based on speculative "faith", and in complete defiance of all known natural laws.

Perhaps you should inject the "vertical" aspect of "intelligence" into your journey, oblivious shumphreys.

We OBVIOUSLY come from an infinite, thinking, loving, reasoning, energy.

If THAT is not the definition of a "god"- then just what IS the definition of a "god? "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 1:04 PM:

" There are probably as many concepts of what God "is" as there are people thinking about the issue. There are Theists, Diests, Pantheists, Panentheists, Polytheists, Goddess worshippers and God worshippers, Atheists, Agnostics and Gnostics like me. No one way is more right, more TRUE,than any other way. Each person has to find the way, the path, that is right for him/her.They all have the potential of helping us become better people or worsen! Many people have passed through more than one of these ways/paths/stages before finding the path/level of spiritual development that is right for them. "

oblivious wrote on Aug 4, 2008 2:56 PM:

" Arrogant wrote:
And the problem is OUR lesser reasoning is too limited to know the complete- REASONS.

That may be the most intelligent thing I've seen you place on this board.

So you don't have a reason why this entity created this planet, the stars, people, mostitoes? Or just why this entity choses to NEVER show itself except by these "miracles" that can all be explained by similar but opposite tragedies. Everytime someone survives something that should've killed them, it's a miracle. However, what about the million other times that someone should've lived and died?

Seems to me that a perfect entity that demands "his" people worship him is, in fact, not perfect and therefore contradicts his very being. Jealousy and vengance are sinful traits of humans, but are innate in YOUR God. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 3:06 PM:

" oblivious shumphreys:

1) A black hole has to be comprised of matter/energy. Everything in the universe is composed of matter/energy.
The science god Albert Einstein's theories tell us that black holes are made of pure gravitational energy.

So where did your black hole come from?

2) Intelligence, reasoning, love, emotions etc. Whether by evolution or direct creation; HAVE to come from our original source of life. Our original energy source.

It is physically IMPOSSIBLE to be MORE than the energy that we came from.

3) "God" "The Original Energy Source" could not cease to exist because energy cannot be DESTROYED.

4) The fact that the universe EXISTS, that WE exist; is PROOF in and of itself, and ourselves, that an intelligent and infinite energy source DOES EXIST. The laws of science demand that it be so.

Your rejection of the physical laws of science, oblivious shumphreys, makes YOUR rejection of a "god", a matter of blind faith. And completely unfounded by fact. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 3:13 PM:

" Why oh why, oblivious, does Gods existence HAVE to be validated ONLY by our understanding of his existence?

Why does his reason for existence, ONLY gain credibility if WE can reason it?

You and I, oblivious, cannot fully comprehend and truly fathom the concept of "infinity"-

BUT, does that make the concept any LESS of an accepted scientific FACT? "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 3:57 PM:

" So Arrogant what does this "infinite" energy source look like--an old man with white hair, flowing robes, long beard? What does "energy" look like? Nothing I have said is in violation of natural laws. Could this infinite energy source be self-perpetuating such as the infinite cycle of birth and rebirth of the Hindus, the energy flowing into a black hole until the hole is full, can't hold any more and bursts open once again creating the next Universe. Could the Universe be circular, imagine a wooden ball on a ring, the path for the ball is infinite, no beginning and no end, and until the ball is removed from the ring the ball will go round and round forever. Could this energy source be the thought from the Buddha,and now sustained by the mass cosmic consciousness of all those who have gone before. There is absolutely no argument to prove that this energy source is a Theists concept of God, an old man with flowing beard, that is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, that intervenes in the affairs of man when he feels like it. At this point in time we don't know what this energy is, whether it had a beginning or will have an end. We can only speculate or have faith. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:09 PM:

" To Equalizer so you are now angry at me because I didn't respond to Forgiven's first two posts? I agreed with him/her when he said "just because I act like a donkey, does that make me one?" he was referring to people who call themselves Christians and don't act like Christians. 100 percent agreement, no need for me to respond. The second post also didn't call for a response, he was primarily expressing his viewpoint, I did take exception to being called "damned" educated, but hey everyone can make their comments. It was actually a compliment, though in reverse. It is those that take complex issues simply that have troubles, not the other way around. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:13 PM:

" Equalizer if I am not understanding where "Her Child" is coming from, if she isn't being racist in repeating untruths (Goddess worshippers who kill each other daily?), why don't you explain to all of us just what she meant, where she is coming from. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:17 PM:

" First oblivious shumphreys said,

"Nothing I have said is in violation of natural laws."

And then oblivious shumphreys goes on to VIOLATE ALL NATURAL LAWS BY STATING:

"At this point in time we don't know what this energy is, WHETHER IT HAD A BEGINNING OR WILL HAVE AN END."

It cannot have a beginning or an end.
Energy IS INFINITE.

How many times will it take your brain to grasp this basic concept, oh dim-witted goddess?

Are you really this slow, or are you being intentionally obstinate? "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:22 PM:

" Arrogant notice I said God could have "given his all, blown himself up" into little bits, transformed himself from one form of energy into the energy we see today. The infant comes from a sperm and an egg, the creation of the embryo destroys the sperm and egg, they are no longer separate identities but one complex organism.You can't separate the sperm from the egg at that point after conception, they are no more. Where there were two now there is one unless there are twins or triplets or other multiple embryos. In either case nothing is lost, just transformed into something totally different.If there ever was a theistic type of God there isn't any proof that there still is. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:35 PM:

" Energy/matter are all around you shumphreys. What does it look like?

But there IS another factor to consider here.

Regular matter/energy only accounts for 4% of the Universe. The other 96% consists of dark matter and dark energy, and is a total mystery- so the gods of science tell us.

So tell me, oblivious shumphreys,

are you OKAY with this vast scientific mystery? Do you understand it? Do you accept it on faith as a matter of fact? "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 5:02 PM:

" To Arrogant,yes I am okay with the fact that there are things that we don't understand at this point in time. I have no problem with reality. What part of the concept of energy being transformed from one form to another do you not understand? That is what the law is all about, nothing is lost or gained, it just changes form. The energy flowing into a black hole would be unrecognizable once it gets into that hole and quite different when or if it eventually gets blown out of that hole. If the Universe collapses into itself, will it form a black hole? The end of one form is the beginning of another form but that doesn't mean either of those forms looks like a Theistic God. Now to throw another wrench into the works. In The Bible God says I am the alpha and the omega, translated the beginning AND the end. That sounds to me as though God knows that there was a beginning and will be an end. OR at least a beginning and an end to life as we know it. But even our energy will eventually be recycled and maybe we can come back and try again. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 5:48 PM:

" oblivious shumphreys said, "God could have "given his all, blown himself up" into little bits, transformed himself from one form of energy into the energy we see today."

BUT oblivious shumphreys- what about the energy/matter that we DON'T SEE TODAY?

And, oblivious shumphreys, the embryo comes from the MOTHER AND FATHER.

The sperm and the egg (please pardon this hilarious pun) are the elements used in "The Big Bang" that created the infant.

But ALAS! The Parents LIVE ON!

And you are wrong about the transformation of energy. There is no pure transformation. Some of the energy gets transformed (lost if you will) into other forms other than the intended secondary "creation". Therefore our entire essence MUST be less than that of our creator.

And there is NO reason why the original Energy has to be fully spent in this creation process.

Is does NOT have to be all or nothing.

What about this do you not understand. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 5:53 PM:

" If you are truly "OKAY" with the things that you do NOT understand at this point and time, oblivious shumphreys; then why do you DEMAND absolute answers from the bible, and from christians? "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 6:01 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:09 PM:
" To Equalizer so you are now angry at me because I didn't respond to Forgiven's first two posts?

No shumphreys, I am not angry with you, should I be? I really feel sorry for you because you inject your opinions into other people's posts as facts as a ritualistic way of giving yourself kudos. Only you are wrong and and don't like it when people actually tell you so. I am not angry with anyone, sounds like you are though. "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 6:05 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 4:13 PM:
" Equalizer if I am not understanding where "Her Child" is coming from, if she isn't being racist in repeating untruths (Goddess worshippers who kill each other daily?), why don't you explain to all of us just what she meant, where she is coming from. "

I already did so in the rest of that post...Her Child was only responding to what was already said the opposite way. You are not reading the whole content. You again are reading just one line and condemning what you read in one line taken out of context again. You didn't read the whole post. Again. "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 6:06 PM:

" You also still assume that Her Child is a she. It is rather funny some of the things you KNOW...that you don't know. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 7:05 PM:

" First of all Arrogant, I don't demand any answers from the Bible or from Christians. I have pointed out before arguing origins, doctrines,who is right, who is wrong,beliefs is sort of futile. It doesn't matter one way or another what you think or what I think. What does matter is whether we use our beliefs to justify the discrimination and hate of others that are different from us, in other words ALL that matters is how we treat our fellow man. BECAUSE one way or another we all have to learn how to share this planet, live together in some sort of peace and harmony so that each of us can pursue our dreams, raise our families, develop our selves physically, mentally, intellectually, and spiritually. Calling other religious beliefs LIES (only your belief is the TRUTH), is not the way to go about learning how to live together. Jesus fills the Bible with suggestions on just how to do that. Those same suggestions, or at least very similar suggestions, are found in ALL of the other world Religions and in the philosophies of our great thinkers and even in many of our favorite books from our childhood, and adulthood. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 7:09 PM:

" To Equalizer it doesn't matter if Her Child is a he, she or it. The posts sound effeminate to me, so I call Her Child, she. If "she" wishes to set the record straight, "she" can. Second I understand fully that "Her Child" was responding to another post. Her post was still racist and showed a complete lack of compassion/love for those who have suffered a major tragedy. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 7:54 PM:

" oblivious shumphreys, if you are going to use jesus christ as an example of acceptance, then I would suggest that you look for another example.

christ was very specific; he said he was the ONLY TRUTH. He said he was the ONLY WAY. He said he was the ONLY LIFE.

The problem with your philosophical approach is that you are trying to make diametrically opposite religious believes somehow fit together by picking out their similarities.

For your philosophical standard to work; christianity as well as other faiths would have to bastardize themselves just to mess together for the sake of unity.

The end result would be a faith so watered down and abstract from its original precepts, that it might as well be faithless. Or in other words, atheism. Which is really what you are selling; whether you're intelligent enough to realize it or not, my goddess.

I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot.

So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 7:56 PM:

" Maybe through your eyes only shumphreys,
but then we all know you only read random sentences with your eyes. You never go deeper and use your heart to further see what someone is trying to say or accomplish.

What Kelly said was cruelty to the max, you ignored it. What Her Child said was in response to Kelly's cruelty, and that you chose to attack. "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 7:58 PM:

" shumphreys,
I'd sure like to meet you in person....
after you're drunk! "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 8:11 PM:

" My God, Equalizer!

You mean oblivious shumphreys can't blame her current lack of comprehension and reasoning on intoxication!? "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 8:47 PM:

" By the way, oblivious shumphreys;

you said "My dogs have an intellect, they can reason, they can love and they show emotions, therefore is GOD a dog?"

Most theologians as well as scientists would state that your dogs DO NOT have an intellect, nor can they reason, love, or have emotions.

I on the other hand, would agree with you. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 9:03 PM:

" First of all Arrogant, I am not the only one that says that Christians that insist that their TRUTH is the only TRUTH have missed the boat. I have given you many references, Gulley and Mulholland, Marcus Borg was suggested by Vicky,than there is Gregory Boyd and his book "The Myth of a Christian Nation", all current Christians, current writers and deep thinkers. Their views of what Christianity is, are quite different from yours. I have also pointed out passages from the Bible that are contrary to the ones you point out and they are passages mentioned by these same writers. Is one way more TRUE, more RIGHT, than any of the others? If so who decides what interpretation of the Bible is the RIGHT interpretation? OR is it possible that there are as many interpretations as there are readers, different people looking for different answers and finding what they need within it's pages. If you are going to continue to argue that your Christianity is the only TRUE Christianity than I will continue to say that you are wrong, there are other interpretations of what a TRUE Christian is or should be and many of those interpretations have full respect for those that practice other religions, and for those that practice no religion. It is that understanding of what Christianity is that will help us make this world a better place for ALL people and it is contained within the same Bible that you read. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 4, 2008 9:04 PM:

" Sorry Equalizer I rarely drink alcohol, it clouds the mind. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 9:18 PM:

" But, oblivious shumphreys,

it wasn't christians who said that christ was THE TRUTH, THE WAY, and THE LIFE

it was christ himself. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 9:28 PM:

" "Gulley and Mulholland, Marcus Borg was suggested by Vicky,than there is Gregory Boyd "

Would you like me to counter their authority, their biblical knowledge, their philosophical dexterity on this issue with, say;

St Matthew,St Mark,St Luke,St John,St Paul, St Thomas Aquinas ,St. Ignatius, St Jerome, St Augustine, St Dominic, St Francis of Assisi, St Anthony of Padua? "

Equalizer wrote on Aug 4, 2008 9:47 PM:

" Hmmm...so if it's not alcohol... "

God Is wrote on Aug 4, 2008 10:04 PM:

" Many of us agree that the Bible provides us with certain truths. Unfortunately, it didn't come with a guide book, leaving us to interpret its many messages as best we can. Quite often these interpretations are based upon our experiences, or on the interpretations of those we have come to believe have some sort of direct line to the Allmighty. The problem we are experiencing is when individuals come to believe that they alone have stumbled upon the correct interpretations, and expect everyone else to fall in line right behind them. The problem becomes compounded when they attempt to use the law to force everyone else to comply reguardless of their own personal beliefs. As far as the name calling, I have always felt that those who have no logical point of discussion with those having opposing views, resort to such an un-christian activity from lack of having anything better to say.

It is just easier to think that those who do not hold the same beliefs are anti-christian satan supporters. Being able to tell them so only adds to the I am better than you are rush.

Every man, woman, and child on this planet are God's children whether they believe it or not. This makes every human on this planet your brothers and sisters. Your Earth parents did not allow you to verbally debase each other while you were growing up. What ever makes you believe that using such language toward others in the name of God has his approval. And it sounds too much like judgement. Now, what was that admonition? Let he who is without sin....

When you add that concept to other verses beginning For all have sinned...., and Vengence is mine...., it becomes obvious that it is time to put down the stones and tend to ourselves. God will tend to everything else when he is ready. Quit trying to force his hand. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 4, 2008 10:05 PM:

" And what exactly, oblivious shumphreys, makes YOUR way TRUER, more RIGHT, than any of the others?

The fact that you have noble intentions of world harmony at the expense of a bastardized non-christian non-deity non-anything- non-faith, in absolutely nothing in particular?

You think your way is right simply because it is the most democratic way of ambivalence in nothing in particular.

Your belief system has little to do with faith, enlightenment, or theology. It is more of a political compromise for all the worlds religious differences. Everyone must give up key aspects of their faith in order to not offend anyone.

Not offend anyone that is except Christians. And it is from the Christians that you demand that the MOST be given up.

Not only is your way no more "right" or more "true" than the traditional Christian denominations; it's much worse and contains watered-down truths which have then become distortions, or falsehoods.

YOUR way, is in short, a passive-aggressive anti-Christian way. And as long as you disguise your anti-Christian biases behind altruistic intentions, you can then claim the moral high ground. Even though morals are completely up for individual interpretation and are thus meaningless in your non-belief system.

There-

I just wrote the cliff-note version of your entire vacuous book. "

father bob wrote on Aug 5, 2008 9:33 AM:

" Susan....i see you and the "real christians" are still at it.

what a tiresome thread....you would think they'd be out picketing and protesting Red Lobster. after all it's an abomination to eat shellfish. funny how these people pick and choose what abominations or parts of the bible to take up and flaunt in the name of "god"....or how they are empowered to condemn others for their very thoughts and being.

that "i will spit you out of my mouth" remark was vintage "christian" hate. obviously the poster being of superior intelligence and moral fiber than others......in his own small cell of a world, is impressed with is very omnipotence.

pretty pathetic....have a good day. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 5, 2008 10:01 AM:

" Arrogant I have told you before I have nothing against Christians I do have something against those who use their beliefs (whether Christian or other, and I have stressed this many times), to promote fear and hate of those that are different,and to justify laws that affect all people. AND what I call for is in reality a VERY Christian ideal, as well as a Buddhist, Taoist, and Hindu ideal, respect for ALL people and that includes respect for their religion. What makes my interpretation TRUTH you ask? It isn't the TRUTH, the only TRUTH, it is one of many TRUTHS. AND as I have said many many times, each person has to follow the path that is right for him/her. You should listen to the poster "God Is" that person appears to have a very GOOD understanding of life, religion and God. If you won't listen to me, listen to him/her. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 5, 2008 10:03 AM:

" Father Bob as long as people keep asking questions I will keep giving them answers. I have nothing to loose and the world has a whole lot to gain. I have no delusions that I am getting through to Arrogant or Equalizer. As I have said before, they aren't the ones that I am writing for. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 5, 2008 10:10 AM:

" Actually fatherbob, that "i will spit you out of my mouth" remark was not vintage "christian" hate, it was a direct quote from Revelations.

Not hate, just rejection; the very same tactic from the very same book that oblivious shumphreys uses.

I would think you would be out at the nearest convalescence center, fatherbob.
Shouldn't you be beating those silly "god" beliefs out of those terminally ill patients and filling their last days with utter hopelessness and despair?

Have a hopeless day! "

injustice85 wrote on Aug 5, 2008 10:22 AM:

" I think it's sad that no one gets susans point. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 5, 2008 10:39 AM:

" oblivious shumphreys said, "It isn't the TRUTH, the only TRUTH, it is one of many TRUTHS."

And therein lies your problem, my goddess; Jesus, The Christ, said there was but only ONE TRUTH. HIM.

And injustice85, I think it's sad that you believe susan has a valid point to begin with; and even more sad that you actually "get" it. "

CHILL! wrote on Aug 5, 2008 10:43 AM:

" I think it's wonderful that many who get susan's point are already past it and actually living their lives happily. "

The Question wrote on Aug 5, 2008 10:55 AM:

" Why have freethinkers been pushing back with books challenging religious dogma in recent years? Norman Levitt has a theory.
"It seems obvious that politics has a lot to do with this, specifically the cultivation of the religious right as a phalanx of conservative storm troopers who are rewarded by conservative politicians by having their singular dogmas incorporated, as much as possible, into public policy. The increasing pressure on womens reproductive rights, the suppression of stem cell research, and, most egregiously, the fresh intrusion of creationism into public schools are primary instances of this. Beyond these concrete horrors, there is no escaping the fact that the miasma of compulsory religiosity has thickened and diffused throughout society. For instance, one notes, rather queasily, the success of the Evangelicals in turning the Air Force Academy into a virtual fundamentalist seminary where cadets from all sorts of backgrounds are relentlessly pressured by officers and upperclassmen into declaring for the Born-Agains.
"Atheists, who, despite polls, have never been all that rare, have come to mistrust the notion that they can believe as they will, undisturbed, provided they remain discreet about it. The mood fostered by the religious right seems to tend toward the inquisitorial. Scientists, in particular, representing the one vocation in which non-belief is the norm, rather than the outlier, have sensibly concluded that the culture in which they have quietly lived is being attacked at its foundations. Its one thing to send your kids to a public school where under god is formulaically recited as part of the daily Pledge of Allegiance. Its quite another to have your kids elementary biology class interrupted by harangues against Darwinism, or to see the Bible, taught as literal truth, surreptitiously introduced into the curriculum. When matters have come to that pass, scientists, among others, see little point in not fighting back openly. Thus one now sees a torrent of books, largely by scientists and sympathetic philosophers, striking back, not only at the enemies of stem-cell research and the proponents of Intelligent Design Theory, but at the very roots of the cultural tic that provides these miscreants such fertile ground: supernatural religion predicated upon a supreme being." "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 5, 2008 5:01 PM:

" to injustice85, I think the reason they don't get my points is that they are afraid--afraid of what they don't understand, afraid to learn so that they might understand, afraid that if the Bible isn't 100% literally true than what else might not be true, if parts of the Bible (genesis for example) are metaphors than what else might be a metaphor, they see everything in terms of black and white, right/wrong, good/evil, TRUTH/lies, there are no concepts of multiple TRUTHS, multiple ways of understanding the world and the human condition, multiple ways to salvation let alone multiple meanings of salvation, ....I could go on and on.... "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 5, 2008 5:03 PM:

" to The Question, right on and write on! "

tammer65 wrote on Aug 5, 2008 6:13 PM:

" God Is, I enjoyed your post. In particular I was struck by your comment toward the name-calling on this site, in which you wrote "What ever makes you believe that using such language toward others in the name of God has his approval. And it sounds too much like judgement. Now, what was that admonition? Let he who is without sin...."

The problem is, I think there are a good number of the Christians on this site who see themselves as beyond being judged. Their answer to "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," apparently is, "so I chucked that 'mother' right at their atheist heads!" "

what wrote on Aug 5, 2008 7:53 PM:

" Mixing politics with religion works. Bush learned that in Texas. Saddam learned it in Kirkuk and Baghdad. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 5, 2008 9:00 PM:

" Unfortunately What is absolutely right. AND it has been for centuries even before the Romans adopted Christianity as the state religion. Marx commented that he felt that religion was important, if only to keep the masses happy and under control. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 6, 2008 4:22 PM:

" Tammer, I am amazed, "I chucked that mother...." I have printed that out and saved it. I rewrote the golden rule as "scre_ unto others before they s_rew unto you." At least it seems that is how many practice it. "

CHILL! wrote on Aug 6, 2008 9:43 PM:

" shumphreys wrote on Aug 6, 2008 4:22 PM:
" Tammer, I am amazed, "I chucked that mother...." I have printed that out and saved it. I rewrote the golden rule as "scre_ unto others before they s_rew unto you."

SHUMPHREYS...THAT IS WHAT YOU LIVE!
AND SO PROUD OF YOURSELF FOR DOING SO TOO! "

God Is wrote on Aug 7, 2008 4:19 AM:

" My dear Susan. I am a Christian. So let me be maybe the first one to say that I found nothing objectionable about what your article said. You merely put into writing the one question each of us has asked ourselves during our growing up period. That question is "Is there a God?"

I have no intention of telling you that your conclusions are wrong, and it is not my place to threaten you with dire consequences if you follow the wrong path. You are young yet, and have many experiences that are yet to be, and that will remold your opinions over and over again as you age. But let me surprise you. The truth is that you do believe in God. You are just using another name.

If one were to assume that God does exist, then one could also accept the fact that he created the universe and everything in it. That includes us. So since He made everything, don't you think that He knows how it works? For example, there are those who would argue that it was a volcano, and not God, who caused the plagues in Egypt. But wouldn't God, who made the world, know that he could achieve the desired effect by setting off that volcano? Does he have to appear waving a majic wand in order to be?

You stated that Grace does not come from God, but from within. But if God created humans, then the Grace you speak of was placed there by him. He knows what makes us tick. And he built into us such survival techniques as Grace to give us something to draw upon when we need help. So you can call it nature if you wish, because nature is of God, and is God. Even God himself stated that he has many names.

Reguardless of the fact that you currently believe that nature is separate from God and responsible for all, I have managed to see in between the lines. You have still managed to follow a good path. It is not how you tell others that they should live, it is how you live your own life that is important. We need to lead by example, not by admonition. Judge not lest ye be judged.

For those out there who believe that God is served with derogatory words and even violence, it's time for a little more introspection. You are like the Pharisees in the temple declaring for all to see how Godly you are. You make me feel sad for you and those who end up in your path. You have done more to turn people away from the path than any earthly pleasure ever did. There are few who respond well to such outbursts, and to tell yourselves that you do it for God is the lie you tell in order to justify your behavior. You just seem to enjoy yelling at people.

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Do good to them that hurt you. If you have two robes and your neighbor has none, then give one to your neighbor. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.....Somebody please tell me where in these statements does it say "as long as your neighbor believes in God and lives the way you believe he should? Otherwise it is open season."

Open your minds and your hearts. Provide a gentle guidance to those seeking answers. Allow them to use their minds and hearts to reach their own conclusions. Understand that we are simply human without the ability to understand more than a speck inside the mind of God and that none of us will ever get it exactly right. And that, no matter how we may feel, the final say-so on who gets into heaven lies with God alone. God's greatest gift was giving us the ability to think and make conclusions on our own. We should share our views, not try to shove them down everyone's throats. Live by example to let others see the Grace and Peace our own paths have brought us. Maybe the way we walk will look good enough for some to decide to walk with us. Life could turn out to be a great journey. "

oblivious wrote on Aug 7, 2008 9:14 AM:

" God is,

Those words are very nice and kind. I have many family members, and friends who think and believe as you do. I also have adopted many of the same ethics and values that "Christians" have. I help people when I can. I give to my fellow man when he is in need. My problem with the bible and religion in general is that people sculpt it to fit their lives. If the bible in its intirety IS the truth as so many say here, then this is not the way it was meant to be interpreted.

I go back to my previous post of chapter Deuteronomy 13
Don't Worship Other Gods
This passage not only condones violence, it demands it. It's not the only verse like this but it's a good example of one. This passage is no different than passages in the Koran that tell their followers to kill all infidels. Modern society just tells us that this is wrong and people know they would go to prison for the rest of their lives if they followed this.

However, if you're following the bible as the truth and the WHOLE TRUTH, then you are not able to judge which passages are to be followed to the letter and which ones can be ignored.

Churches typically ignore passages like this one. From all my Sundays at church I never remember my pastor starting out a sermon with Deuteronomy 13.

If this book IS the TRUTH and the way to heaven, it's not a book I'm prepared to follow and I guess this "lost soul" will simply do my best to be the best person I can while here on this rock we call Earth. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 7, 2008 10:54 AM:

" to God Is, your words are wise. I don't know how "young" you think I am, I hope that I will always see my self as forever young. We are often how we see ourselves. I am neither a Theist, Deist, Panentheist (Vicky I just finished reading Marcus Borgs book, "The God We Never Knew", very interesting), nor am I Pantheist, Polytheist,Atheist, or Agnostic. I am a Gnostic Taoist, a searcher of Understanding and of balance and harmony. I see "God" as being entirely within each individual (the force of life), not without--not a separate force or identity. For that reason I do not use the word "God" because it carries different conotations for many.This is more in line with Eastern religious traditions. Wisdom doesn't necessarily come with age, it comes with a willingness to learn, to explore ideas, different religious traditions, a willingness to ask and to THINK about difficult questions. To some it comes much earlier than others and to some I don't think they ever find it. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 7, 2008 12:32 PM:

" To Oblivious, I have come to see the Bible as a "good" book but not the only good book. It is full of great wisdom but so are many other great books. I have just started reading another of Marcus Borg's books, "Reading The Bible Again for the First Time." He takes what he calls a historical-metaphorical approach to reading the Bible. the first part I have just finished offers his reasoning for why this approach is important. He says "there is no such thing as a noninterpretive reading of the Bible..." and he sees the Bible not as the Word of God but as a human product "as the response of these two ancient communities (ancient Hebrew and early Christian) to their experience of God." But it is still just one of the worlds sacred texts. I happen to find the Upanishads and the Tao teh Ching particularly enlightening. "

God Is wrote on Aug 7, 2008 2:09 PM:

" For Oblivious: You make the same mistake many, including Christians, have made before you. The Bible is first and foremost a book of history. And most specifically a history of the Jewish people. The violent acts supported by the Old Testament reflected the violent times in which they occurred. It is a background to exhibit why the appearance of Jesus and the teachings he began were necessary. When Jesus came, he changed everything. He talked of justice, mercy, and understanding. He urged us to put away the sword and to become good neighbors. He said that it would be the meek, not the strong, that would inherit. And he died for it. Because violent people preferred violent reactions. But the seed was planted.

Anyone who quotes the Old Testament to excuse poor behavior or to tear down what it really means to be Christian is in error. Ministers do not leave those passages out because they are embarrassed to include them. They leave them out because Jesus gave us all a better way. We are no longer supposed to follow them.

I enjoy the Old Testament for its history, for its poetry, and for the stories of individuals who managed to remain true to God despite the times that they lived in. I receive the instructions for living my life from the New Testament. The one that says that swords will be beaten down into plows and the lion will lay down with the lamb. The one that says that things are going to get bad first, but just hang in there because in the end its going to be wonderful.

"Long lay the world in sin and error, pining, til he appeared and the soul felt its worth". Now you know what my favorite Christmas carol is.

Do you know what a Christian is? It is a person who believes in Jesus. All the rest are just humans trying to tell each other what to do, and claiming everything they say came straight from God. As far as the other religions, if they repeat Jesus' message of peace, hope, and faith, then read away. Intelligent people deserve to be quoted.

God provides inspiration from many sources besides the bible. One of the most loved hymns of all time is based upon a poem written by a sea captain named John Newton. He was a vile man, the captain of a slave ship who helped to enslave hundreds of Africans and made harder the lives of thousands of their descendants. No one knows what happened to him on his last voyage. The only clue was that poem, but Captain Newton walked off his ship forever, and spent the rest of his life trying to free the very people he helped to enslave. I believe that he discovered what a Christian truly is.

Sixty years later someone else added the music. And we now have one of the most powerful hymns of hope and redemption coming from a man most of us would have condemned forever.

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind, but now I see." "

VTucker wrote on Aug 7, 2008 2:48 PM:

" The violent acts supported by the Old Testament reflected the violent times in which they occurred."

Great point, God Is. I enjoy reading your comments, particularly those about the Old Testament. I believe the Old Testament, especially in the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, show us how patient (and passionate) God really is. If you read the OT a little deeper than is usually done, you get beyond all the murder and mayhem, the slash and gore characteristic of life back then. Even then, however, God was calling people to be something more than what they were. Then as now, not all that many people understood his call. The Old Testament records it all, graphically, honestly, and passionately. "

God Is wrote on Aug 8, 2008 6:59 AM:

" On Aug. 5 Tammer65 made the following comment:

"The problem is, I think there are a good number of the Christians on this site who see themselves a beyond being judged."

I am sorry Tammer, but I disagree. You recognized that there was a problem, but then you slid off into an old, old trap: Find someone specific to blame for the problem, in this case the Christians, and then set about to eradicate them. If you truly believe that Christians have the market cornered on intolerance, then may I suggest that you go back and read the postings. There were a lot of stones being hurled, and many of them were coming from those who declared themselves above the evil Christian attitudes. They had found the better path, so s---w you and the horse you rode in on.

Adolph Hitler used this trap as a means to gain power in Europe. We ended up fighting World War II. "Us" against "Them" is a powerful tool. Six million Jews died, along with I don't know how many of the physically and mentally handicapped, homosexuals, and dark-skinned people from other ethnic groups.

So, a church minister was arrested for murdering his wife and molesting his children. Abortion doctors were targeted for assasination and their clinics for bombing. Individuals claiming to be Christian showed up at military funerals in order to protest against the honored soldier. There are more items that could be added to this list, and they would all be bad. But why blame the group as a whole for the actions of those who use Christianity as an excuse rather than a personal support? Could we not just offer a little compassion and understanding for those suffering the pain and embarassment of finding these individuals in their midst?

Come on and admit it at least to yourselves. When you heard about the gunman storming into the church meeting and opening fire, how quickly did you think "well, they got what they deserved".

Many years ago there was a comic strip called "Pogo" which left behind the leagacy of one statement that many of you may know even if you don't understand the source:

"I have seen the enemy...and they are us." "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 8, 2008 7:42 AM:

" To God Is I think you are also sliding into traps you set for your self. Tammer wasn't blaming all Christians by any stretch of the imagination. AND I am quite sure that she didn't think "they got what they deserved" when she heard about the Unitarian church shooting. There is plenty of "ill will" on all sides, but Tammer has been one of the few voices calling for tolerance and keeping a civil tongue. She just happens to be very advanced in her understanding of the world and religion and human nature, which is difficult for many to grasp. "

God Is wrote on Aug 8, 2008 7:49 AM:

" My apologies to Walt Kelly. I just looked it up again, and the actual quote is "I have met the enemy, and he is Us." "

VTucker wrote on Aug 8, 2008 7:54 AM:

" Good gravy, God Is, I think you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! Or perhaps you have developed an alternate personality since yesterday? "Find someone specific to blame for the problem, in this case the Christians, and then set about to eradicate them." Eradicate them? How could you possibly have drawn that conclusion from tammer65's post?

I can't imagine anyone who posts on here thinking, "They got what they deserved" when that gunman stormed the church and opened fire. (Except maybe for The Truth, who is always saying that someone somewhere is going to get theirs.)

Being fearful of differences, intolerant, and judgmental are part of the human condition; Christians and non-Christians exhibit these characteristics. The problem is that a number of Christians exhbit them while claiming to represent something (actually Someone) higher. "

arrogant wrote on Aug 8, 2008 10:29 AM:

" Yes Yes. Amazing! Now VTucker and shumphreys are channeling the very mind and thoughts of tammer65! Astounding how they know exactly and quite specifically the very detailed thoughts of tammer! "

God Is wrote on Aug 8, 2008 10:41 AM:

" Whether or not they call it God, everyone involved here is claiming to be standing on the higher ground. I simply decided to stir up the kettle a little and see what happens when I used the same tactic that I saw represented in these postings to see what would happen. Curiosity solved. How quickly attitudes change when someone begins saying things that aren't agreed upon.

Do I think people were thinking that the church members got what they deserved? No. At least, I hope not. Was the use of the word eradicate extreme? Most definitely. How did the response compare with what I had predicted to myself? As expected. When faced with the challenge of an alternate view, the natural human response is to attack.

At least no one blamed the Christian churches this time for my erroneous claims. And that has been my point all along. Disagree with the individual, not the group he or she claims to be a part of. Accept that there are those who will disagree with you, and that this disagreement is okay. Twenty years from now you may not even agree with you. A personal attack is not an acceptable form of debate, and it will only please those who enjoy the attack.

Now I have finally made my way back around to where I began. Stop the name calling and the finger pointing. We are responsible. We are responsible for everything. Until we are willing to accept that responsibility within ourselves, we are lost. If we continue to look for some ephemeral other to blame, then we have no reason to attempt to make things better. And the world will be lost.

There are these three things: Faith, Hope, and Love. But the greatest of these is Love.

Not a bad concept.

Let me close with apologies to Tammer for making use of his/her comments. In reality, the "chucked it right at their atheist heads" comment gave me quite a chuckle for the rest of the day. I thought it was succinct and to the point. Five stars for a fine debate point. I may not have agreed with mentioning only the Christians, but I know how to extrapolate. Besides, I understand that the stones come from a Christian source, and therefore mentioning only the Christians could be considered appropriate. Everyone else should just add their names to the list. I already added mine. Because I am responsible. For everything. "

The Question wrote on Aug 8, 2008 11:08 AM:

" Just for the record, the alleged anthrax terrorist was a white, Republican right-wing Christian. He was a particularly devout Catholic.
And the Unitarians weren't murdered for being Christian. They were murdered for being liberal. "

VTucker wrote on Aug 8, 2008 12:11 PM:

" Great minds think alike, arrogant!

Question, the alleged anthrax terrorist was also mentally ill. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 8, 2008 12:12 PM:

" God Is I hope you also discovered that two people on these pages responded in a civil fashion. We didn't call you names, or say that you would be going straight to you know where for daring to make such an outrageous and unjustified statement against Tammer. One of those people is a Christian and one is a Gnostic Taoist. Civil discourse has nothing to do with your religious beliefs.It is all about how you treat your fellow man, a universal human concept. "

RavenH4 wrote on Aug 8, 2008 2:45 PM:

" Yeah Question, and as RushBaby pointed out to you, the anthrax terrorist was also a staunch Democrat.
So I guess we can deduce from that, that Christian Democrats have a propensity for homicidal insanity.
Hey, isn't Barrack Obama a Christian Democrat? He already supports the most radical use of abortion, so we know he's homicidal. Hmmmmm. "

The Question wrote on Aug 8, 2008 3:42 PM:

" So religion is relevant if the terrorist is Muslim, but not if the terrorist is a devout Christian. That how it works? And why dont the news articles on this man call him a terrorist? "

RavenH4 wrote on Aug 8, 2008 4:15 PM:

" Allow me to demonstrate a little deductive reasoning, Question.

If a single Muslim (on a rare occasion) is terrorizing society and committing murder in the name of Allah, then no his/her religion is probably not relevant.

IF however, large groups of Muslims are waging Jihad on the entire free world; then YES, their religion IS relevant, based on the sheer size of the homicidal movement.

I'm not aware that Bruce Ivins committed his acts of terrorism and murder in the name of Christ.
And even if he did; he would be a rare exception (an anomaly if you will) in the modern world of the Roman Catholic faith.

I thought you Liberals where supposed to be able to discern nuance and omit making rash generalization even to the point of reckless peril, Question? "

The Question wrote on Aug 8, 2008 4:30 PM:

" IF however, large groups of Muslims are waging Jihad on the entire free world; then YES, their religion IS relevant, based on the sheer size of the homicidal movement.
----------
And IF, however, large groups of Christians invade and occupy Muslim nations, is their Christian religion relevant then, based on the sheer size of their imperialist invasions? "

RavenH4 wrote on Aug 8, 2008 4:39 PM:

" Oh, I almost forgot, Question, the reason the news media is NOT labeling Bruce Ivins a terrorist, is the very same reason they have not been forthcoming about his political affiliation; Ivins (like the majority of the Liberal media) was a Democrat! "

RavenH4 wrote on Aug 8, 2008 4:53 PM:

" IF large groups of Christians invade and occupy Muslim nations, is their Christian religion relevant then, based on the sheer size of their imperialist invasions?

Only if it was done AS a religious movement in the name of Christ.

Of course the invasion was NOT done in the name of any religious doctrine, nor were the invading forces entirely comprised of Christians.

See how that works, Question. "

The Question wrote on Aug 8, 2008 5:05 PM:

" "Oh, I almost forgot, Question, the reason the news media is NOT labeling Bruce Ivins a terrorist, is the very same reason they have not been forthcoming about his political affiliation; Ivins (like the majority of the Liberal media) was a Democrat! "
---------
Wrong again, as usual. Ivins is not being called a terrorist by the news media because the Bush administration is not calling him a terrorist, and the Bush administration is not calling him a terrorist because he is a white, male, Christian American who was working in a Pentagon biological weapons lab.
Among others things, the Bush administration is naturally reluctant to underline the fact that their beloved military-industrial complex provided weapons of mass destruction to a terrorist lunatic. So much for keeping Americans safe at a cost of untold borrowed trillions in taxpayer money, eh? "

RavenH4 wrote on Aug 8, 2008 7:30 PM:

" No, Question, I'm afraid you're wrong, again, as I have proven through this entire conversation.
Need I remind you that you MISTAKENLY claimed that Ivins was a Democrat at the beginning of our little tete-a-tete?
The crux of your half-baked conspiracy theory is that the media is in the tank for the Bush Administration and is for some inexplicable reason, taking marching orders from the White House.
That would hardly seem the case, since the media has done nothing but lambaste this Administration over the Iraq War and the War on Terror in general. And they have shown no reluctance to sensationalize criminal activities of the so-called "military-industrial complex".
I might add; you're sounding more and more cut from the cloth of Noam Chomsky. "

Mama says wrote on Aug 9, 2008 4:34 AM:

" Having two surgeries I died on table and what I saw opened my eyes to a lot of Heaven/Hell issues, religious beliefs. I was amazed I made it, as was always told had to believe this/that/and I MADE IT. I also saw my animals and lots animals waiting for owners from Earth, and my Dad was happy with his childhood dog Shep, and greeted me. I saw a lot of different races, religions, and I asked HOW CAN THIS BE, and a mighty voice answered I HAVE MANY NAMES. When awoke I wasn't as happy as didnt want leave there but was told I had to come back for sons sake and to tell others all I saw.

I told hospital the medication was really good and what took place.
I don't make judgements on religions,
too bad more people cannot experience this during surgeries, it was the most wonderful feeling in the world.

I tell my good friends tho when I left the great hallway they needed more chalk for their sins on the blackboards (just a joke). hehe. "

The Question wrote on Aug 9, 2008 4:49 PM:

" Well, it turns out that Ivins' religion may in fact be relevant to his alleged terrorism.
A practising Catholic, he wrote letters to a local newspaper that were hostile to Muslims, that called Jews God's "chosen people" and that promoted Christian nationalism in the U.S. You can read them here:
http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78274
The WMD-laced letters sent to Democratic U.S. Senate Majority leader Tom Daschle, Democratic U.S. Senator Pat Leahy and NBC News included crude notes that read Death to America, Death to Israel, Allah is Great.
If it was in fact Ivins who sent them, then clearly he was a right-wing, Zionist Christian who was attempting to frame what he regarded as the enemies of Israel. "

VTucker wrote on Aug 9, 2008 5:25 PM:

" Ivins' beliefs seem contradictory to me. I did pick up on possible Zionist leanings, from that first letter. However, two of the other letters suggest he's open to the possibility of homosexuality having a genetic basis, and receptive to female clergy in the Catholic church--rather liberal views. He apparently was not a racist, either. It would be interesting to know the motivation behind those letters. "

RavenH4 wrote on Aug 9, 2008 7:27 PM:

" As I said before Question, if Ivins committed these terrorist acts based on his distorted religious beliefs, then he would be a rare exception (an anomaly if you will) in the modern world of the Roman Catholic faith.

And he is still a registered Democrat who voted predominantly along party lines.

And how would his personal religious beliefs in any way be indicative of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church? You are merely attempting to condemn an entire Church and doctrine based on the actions of an individual who was clearly mentally ill and quite possibly psychotic.

In the reverse analysis of your logic; Barrack Obama should be held accountable for the very same hate-filled racist prejudices as that of the church he attended for twenty some years. And given the fact that those vile sentiments came flying off the most reverend tongue of the church's very own minister; it would be only practical to assume that those values reflected his churchs official doctrine.

Or, Question, do your blanket biases only apply to white Conservative Christians of the Republican affiliation? "

The Question wrote on Aug 10, 2008 10:34 AM:

" I agree, VTucker. This a strange mystery. I am not convinced that Ivins was any more responsible for the anthrax terrorism than Hatfill was. And Hatfill just got a $5.8 million settlement from the feds for having his reputation destroyed. "

shumphreys wrote on Aug 10, 2008 12:09 PM:

" Unfortunately Vicky with Ivins death, we will never know the "rest of the story". I almost said "the Truth" but that word seems to stir up a lot of discord! "

injustice85 wrote on Aug 15, 2008 2:56 AM:

" Sorry Susan apparently your not allowed to have a point, Christians know everything they're talking about and hey ya know as long as we make it to church on sunday we're good to go anyways so lets all be catholic "