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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:40 PM CDT
COLUMN: Right-wing Republicans' claim to contrary, they're embracing 'Big Brother'

By HARRY REYNOLDS, Editorial Page Editor
hreynolds@jg-tc.com

“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”

— Benjamin Franklin

Jack Pierce of Charleston, contributor of many “Letters to the Editor” over the years, vigorously opposes “Big Brother” government.

In his latest letter, appearing Wednesday on the JG/T-C Opinions page, Jack even harbors the suspicion Big Brother might be secretly monitoring his “...every move and conversation” when he’s in his car.

I’d be suspicious, too, given the fact his new car has “...nearly 38 computers on board.”

Lucky for me, my mode of transportation is a beat-up 1995 Dakota with duct tape covering one of the rear-side windows, courtesy of some idiot whose main aspiration is to be a fourth century Vandal.

Jack’s wrong, however, when he suggests I might “embrace” his suspicions about his car as “...just another vast right-wing Republican conspiracy.” Quite the opposite, in this I enthusiastically agree with Jack.

But his car isn’t my main concern. Where I part company with the right wing of the Republican Party is its vigorous defense of the Bush administration’s willingness to sacrifice our freedoms on the altar of security.

Traditionally, the Republican Party distrusted centralized government due to its tendency to infringe on the freedoms of Americans, but now that tendency is reality, Republicans embrace infringement.

These days I think government by the people usually isn’t for the people. It’s a crushing clawing bear that bears intense unrelenting scrutiny.

GOP Congressman Ron Paul drew a lot of conservative support in his valiant, but futile effort to win the Republican nomination for president.

So, I offer these comments Paul made in April of 2007 regarding freedom and safety.

“Freedom is not defined by safety. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference. Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional world. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy idea, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. Liberty has meaning only if we still believe in it when terrible things happen and a false government security blanket beckons.”

Paul opposes the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act. He is also a strong Constitutionalist.

Doesn’t sound like a guy who favors letting the government suspend habeas corpus, and freely spy on Americans in the name of security. I doubt Paul supports the violation of human rights at Abu Graib and Guantanamo in the name of security.

In that he is joined by conservative Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., who said Wednesday the Bush administration’s legal view on interrogations and detainees in the wake of 9/11 will “go down in history as some of the most irresponsible and shortsighted legal analysis ever provided to our nation’s military and intelligence communities.”

William Pitt, British prime minister, would probably agree with Paul and Graham. “Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves,” he opined in 1783.

The great American patriot Thomas Paine wrote, “He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates his duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.”

Readers of this column (aside from a few who misread it) know I strongly supported the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq following the Sept. 11 attacks.

What I don’t support is the Bush administration ignoring the Geneva Convention and establishing Guantanamo. They disgrace us in the eyes of many Americans and the world.

I don’t support the stampede to strip Americans of their freedoms in the name of security. I choose freedom over security. Sacrificing the former for the latter is not living, it’s existing.

We’ve never been safe, are not safe and never will be safe. The United States is build on risk. From the Pilgrims to the Founding Fathers and pioneers heading westward, to the men and women who challenged space, America has been a nation bellowing risk.

We should not sell our freedoms to the state in order to be safe. It’s a bad bargain. Overreaching government cannot protect us, but it can kill the spirit that makes us great.

Handing the federal government the keys to the door of the Constitution and Bill of Rights will inevitably result in it locking the people out. Security cannot be found in tyranny.

The Bush administration may mean well in its attempt to prevent another 9/11 by increasing the power of the central government in the name of national security, and trampling over the Constitution.

In doing so, it rejects the argument at the core of the Republican Party’s philosophy, which echoes Jefferson:

“That government is best which governs least.”

Big Government comes with a hefty price tag: individual freedom. It’s a bill conservative Republicans profess to be unwilling to pay.

Thirty-eight computers in a car should be the least of their concerns.

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The Question wrote on Jun 19, 2008 10:07 PM:

" You begin to redeem yourself, Harry. But if one thing is now clear, it is that the Bush administration does not "mean well. "

Early Bird wrote on Jun 20, 2008 5:03 AM:

" While George Bush is scurrying around trying to salvage what's left of his reputation, I think it's the whole issue of his Fascist's tactics that he will be best remembered by.

Funny how people like Lindsey Graham are now coming forward, after having rubber stamped Bush's actions for over 7 years. Being a big McCain backer, I suspect Graham's motivation is more political than any sort of philosophical difference with the Bush regime.

Or it could be another rat jumping ship.

It will take years to undo the mess this man has gotten this country into with his cowboy approach to control to the world and the citizens of this country.

Good editorial, Harry. "

coonbug wrote on Jun 20, 2008 7:55 AM:

" Harry, your words....

Where I part company with the right wing of the Republican Party is its vigorous defense of the Bush administrations willingness to sacrifice our freedoms on the altar of security.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., who said Wednesday the Bush administrations legal view on interrogations and detainees in the wake of 9/11 will go down in history as some of the most irresponsible and shortsighted legal analysis ever provided to our nations military and intelligence communities.

What I dont support is the Bush administration ignoring the Geneva Convention and establishing Guantanamo

I dont support the stampede to strip Americans of their freedoms in the name of security.

Handing the federal government the keys to the door of the Constitution and Bill of Rights will inevitably result in it locking the people out. Security cannot be found in tyranny.

************************************
After ALL those statements admitting the fact that the Bush administration abused our Constitution and Bill of Rights by being irresponsible and shortsighted LEGALLY --- you STILL refuse to admit that this administration should be IMPEACHED? You STILL think its all about revenge and payback don't you?

Harry, exactly what do you consider an impeachable offense? I would really like to know.

Are you like John McCain..."I didn't Really Love America till I had to live without her (in vietnam prison)."

Will it take the Bush admin putting you in Jail without any rights - for being under the suspicion that you are the enemy -- before YOU finally think it's time to Impeach them?

P.S.

Your comments, Readers of this column (aside from a few who misread it) know I strongly supported the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq following the Sept. 11 attacks. Implies that the Iraq war was ALL ABOUT 9/11 and the attacks made against us. I resent those words sir. They are the reasons WHY we are in the mess in Iraq we are now. Tying 9/11 to Saddam was a LIE! "

Michael wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:27 AM:

" True the extremes of both parties scare me a little, but think how close they end up in terms of reduction of liberties. The far-right are content to reduce liberties in small steps while the far left proceed in large jumps. The far-right justifies its strategy by touting protection of the people as does the far-left by dilution of citizens' liberties to massive classes formerly unintitled. Both are wrong-headed and will ultimately result in our overall loss of liberty AND security! "

The Question wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:56 AM:

" The far-right are content to reduce liberties in small steps while the far left proceed in large jumps.
-------
You have that exactly reversed. "

father bob wrote on Jun 20, 2008 11:29 AM:

" great column Harry.... "

ed miller wrote on Jun 20, 2008 12:21 PM:

" It's funny, if the government wants to listen in on phone calls to catch terrorists cells, the liberals all cry about losing their freedoms and privacy. However, they don't seem to mind the government choosing their health care, taking their paychecks, and taking over private businesses just to provide cheaper goods. I guess those freedoms aren't important. "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 20, 2008 12:39 PM:

" Harry, a point you fail to mention in all this is that conservatives, right wing or otherwise, DO NOT support infringement of freedoms and liberty for US CITIZENS. This is war - not a civil/police action! Enemy combatants captured on the fields of war simply do not have rights guaranteed by the US Constitution! You also fail to mention that SOME Libertarian political positions, such as Ron Paul's positions on illegal drugs, border on anarchy. As far as the Geneva Convention is concerned, I may go along with some objections to *torture*, but then we have to define what *torture* is. I mean, weren't we asked to go along with questioning the meaning of what *sex* is a few years back? // But, back to the Constitutional Rights issue, thank God, we're not yet to the point of having a One World Order. Until we arrive at that point, last I heard, the United States is still considered a sovereign nation, with sovereign rights for our own sovereign citizens. "

1 cav wrote on Jun 20, 2008 1:43 PM:

" Bush administration ignoring the Geneva Convention and establishing Guantanamo. They disgrace us in the eyes of many Americans and the world.
Just for starters,Harry what part of the Geneva Convention has been ignored. I feel that by just regurgitating left wing blather and not stating what part was violated,you have no idea what your talking about?? "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 20, 2008 3:53 PM:

" The point Mr. Andres is that enemies captured on a battlefield should have rights and our failure to grant them basic human rights is the greatest failure of this country. "

father bob wrote on Jun 20, 2008 3:58 PM:

" Tom Andres wrote on Jun 20, 2008 12:39 PM:
" Harry, a point you fail to mention in all this is that conservatives, right wing or otherwise, DO NOT support infringement of freedoms and liberty for US CITIZENS. This is war - not a civil/police action! Enemy combatants captured on the fields of war simply do not have rights guaranteed by the US Constitution!

you forget Tommie, this is not about just america, its a world issue. even Eichmann had a fair trial with representation. you and your monger need to rethink what's good for america instead of lining up behind a bunch of thugs and criminals. you guys are pathetic. "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 20, 2008 6:09 PM:

" Ms Humphreys, true, enemy combatants DO have rights, but they DO NOT have the same rights as you and I. "

The Question wrote on Jun 20, 2008 6:29 PM:

" There are no such things as "enemy combatants." That's another legal fiction created by the Bush administration to advance its fascist powers. Many of the people rounded up as "enemy combatants" were not captured on a battlefield, but were turned over for a bounty by warlords or personal enemies. Someday, we may find out just how many innocent people we have imprisoned indefinitely, tortured and murdered to make the ape look good. "

what wrote on Jun 20, 2008 7:41 PM:

" The founding fathers had a vision of a Democratic Republic which guaranteed certain inaliable rights to all, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Bush Adm. has challenged these rights. The platform they launch their attack from is their war on terror, including their insanely ilogical invasion and occupation of Iraq. Fantasy has become reality. For those with that long ago vision, and those who believe yet, a quote from "Black Elk Speaks".."But if the vision were true and mighty, as I know, it is true and mighty yet; for such things are of the spirit, and it is in the darkness of their eyes that men get lost". "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:09 PM:

" The founding fathers had a vision of a Democratic Republic which guaranteed certain inaliable rights to all ... US Citizens. :) Nice try. "

The Question wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:23 PM:

" I'm surprised that a supposed patriot like you would get the founding fathers so wrong, Tommy. They explicitly said rights were self-evidently guaranteed to all mankind, not just citizens of any one country.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."
Shameful, Tommy. Shameful. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:37 PM:

" Question- "...endowed by their Creator"

-------

Golly Herr Question- what's that "Creator" thing they're talking about......? "

ed miller wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:44 PM:

" The Question wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:23 PM:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator ..."

Creator?... This document must have been written by a bunch of fundamentalists, right-wing, nutjobs. Man TQ, I'm surprised you would agree with a bunch of naive idiots that believe in a supreme being. Watch out or they will take your Liberal Card away. "

The Question wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:56 PM:

" "Golly Herr Question- what's that "Creator" thing they're talking about......? "
------
"Creator?... This document must have been written by a bunch of fundamentalists, right-wing, nutjobs."
------
No, it was written by a deist who didn't believe in a personal God or in the divinity of Jesus. Guy named Jefferson. Surprised you guys didn't know that. "

1 cav wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:58 PM:

1 cav wrote on Jun 20, 2008 10:05 PM:

" Read the rights of prisoners in the Geneva Convention,then resume this part of the conservation PLEASE! "

1 cav wrote on Jun 20, 2008 10:11 PM:

" Now what part didn't our troops get after being burned and drug threw the city and hanged from a bridge? Or when their throats were being slit or heads were being held up in front of a camera?
This is what is waiting for all you Infidels when they come for you and your children. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 20, 2008 10:21 PM:

" Herr Question- "No, it was written by a deist who didn't believe in a personal God or in the divinity of Jesus. Guy named Jefferson. Surprised you guys didn't know that."

-------

Gee thanks for the history lesson.....but....you never answered my question-

I asked what it was- not, what it wasn't. "

The Question wrote on Jun 20, 2008 10:23 PM:

" The four Americans burned and hanged from a Euphrates River bridge in 2004 weren't U.S. troops, Cav Man. They were Blackwater mercenaries. Can you think of any reasons why Blackwater mercenaries might not be too popular with the citizens of Iraq? "

The Question wrote on Jun 21, 2008 7:11 AM:

" Fascinating hearings yesterday, weren't they? My, my, my, how the Republican lawmakers spit their cobra venom at Scott McClellan for violating their crime family omert. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 21, 2008 7:30 AM:

" First "created" equal does not imply created by a God. Second Mr. Andres and 1Cav it precisely that some in this country believe that enemies don't hold the same rights as US citizens that causes the nation troubles and causes bodies of our dead to be drug through the streets. If we don't respect human rights why should anyone else. It is precisely this principle that causes this country problems with illegal immigrants and their rights to basic services, with arguments over granting rights to people outside the territorial boundaries of this country (why Cuba was picked for a prison), why a Geneva convention was needed in the first place. There is only one principle that this country needs to abide by in all of it's actions, (gay rights, enemy combatant and non-combatant rights, immirgrant rights...) all men (humans) are created equal and are endowed with certain inalienable rights. "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 21, 2008 9:06 AM:

" The phrase "...that all men are created equal..." does not - I have to give you the point - indicate a creation by a being. But the phrase goes on, "...that they are endowed by their Creator...". The word "Creator" in this case is capitalized indicating that this Creator is a proper noun or a being of some kind.

Believe me, I'm not getting back into the conversation of whether or not the US is or isn't a Christian nation. We regulars on here have been around that tree too many times.

I've seen documented information that says Jefferson was a diest and was just saying he believed in Jesus just to go along with the group. I've seen documented information that the very person who made that statement (Jefferson's biographer) made it after Jefferson's death and made the statement to push his beliefs and make people think Jefferson actually was a diest.

I give up. I don't think anyone has the answer. And if someone does have the definitive answer . . . what difference does it make? True, Jefferson was a major influence and a driving force behind the of the creation and implementation of the Constitution . . . but the document had to be passed by a majority.

Based on what I know about the character of the men involved with the Constitution, I don't think they'd have any qualms about arguing any point they thought they had to. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 21, 2008 10:00 AM:

" Herr Question- "Fascinating hearings yesterday, weren't they? My, my, my, how the Republican lawmakers spit their cobra venom at Scott McClellan for violating their crime family omert."

-------

Really Herr Goebbels- and what did BeamMeUp Scotty reveal? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 21, 2008 10:02 AM:

" shumphreys- "First "created" equal does not imply created by a God."

------

mmmm-hmmmm.....I see.

So what exactly DOES it imply.......? "

1 cav wrote on Jun 21, 2008 10:17 AM:

" shumphreys wrote on Jun 20, 2008 3:53 PM:
" The point Mr. Andres is that enemies captured on a battlefield should have rights and our failure to grant them basic human rights is the greatest failure of this country. "EXPLAIN what basic human rights??
why a Geneva convention was needed in the first place. EXPLAIN!!
I got after Harry for spouting Geneva Convention as a magic word! For your information these terrorist are not qualified as Prisoners of War by the Geneva Convention.
#2 if you put them in American cells you will violate the Geneva Convention if they 'were real' prisoners of war. If you would take the time and read it. Tobacco shall not be denied. "

what? wrote on Jun 21, 2008 1:34 PM:

" From todays Cal Thomas column. "Who should be held accountable for the blood of Americans killed by terrorist who have gained their freedom courtesy of a federal judge, a judge who has usurped the authority and judgment of the executive branch and the military?" And here I thought the judicial branch was supposed to interpret the constitution, not the executive branch and the military. "

The Question wrote on Jun 21, 2008 1:38 PM:

" I have come to the reluctant conclusion, over these last few years, that many Americans long to embrace fascism.
Ugly and small-minded, with a vicious distaste for anyone they perceive as different, they like the idea of people being kidnapped by the government and locked in secret prisons where they can be tortured and murdered in complete legal darkness. They like the idea of private mercenary companies mowing down the unarmed citizenry in countries their nation has invaded and occupied.
They want the government to spy on all Americans at all times, without any legal oversight. They loudly condemn any poor person who steals something, but fashion strange, tortured defenses for corporate CEOs who rob billions from the public.
Anti-individualist to the bone, they demand that everyone else grovel to their deities and their flags. Much of their conversation consists of nothing more than a tedious recitation of their imagined grievances against women, against gay people, against people who have other religious convictions, against black or brown or yellow people.
They enjoy listening to ranting idiots on the radio and television, and think those loudmouth dropouts are intellectuals. They have a long list of people they want to execute, and they delight in telling you how much they would enjoy seeing that done. For all the lip service they may pay the Constitution from time to time, in fact they despise it.
In short, they are nasty pieces of work. They dont like to call themselves fascists, of course, but thats just a PR ploy. What they like, very much, is being fascists. "

what? wrote on Jun 21, 2008 4:59 PM:

" To be born is to be created. It is after this self evident truth that we begin to define ourselves, for better or worse. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 21, 2008 5:03 PM:

" Mr. Lamphier need I explain how the sexual act works for you? And 1Cav it is when the going gets rough that we find out what people are really made of--i.e. whether they have the strength of character to stick to their principles or in some case the principles that they stick to. The essence of Jesus teaching (and by the way the teachings of Buddha, Lao Tzu and many others) is that all humans are equal and that enemies and those who hold different beliefs deserve the same rights that you grant to those that are just like you, and to do otherwise makes you less than human. That sir is why enemy combatants and non-combatants deserve the same rights as American citizens and the failure to honor those rights is Bushes (and his supporters) failure as humans. They show us what they are really made of. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 21, 2008 5:25 PM:

" 1Cav basic human rights, I need to explain what basic human rights are? AND I thought you considered yourself to be a Christian. Freedom from torture, freedom to worship, freedom from unreasonable search and seisure, right to an attorney and to know the charges against you and the right to challenge those charges in a court of law,respect of human dignity (not being stripped naked and forced into humiliating positions), freedom to worship, freedom of speech, freedom to walk down a street without fear, freedom to raise your children and to pass on your values and traditions, freedom to work and earn a decent living, freedom to read a book and go to school, and yes freedom to defend your country from an unjust tyrant or illegal occupation from a foreign power. There are many basic human freedoms, but Jefferson summed it up eloquently with life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. "

Smoke'em If Ya Got'em wrote on Jun 21, 2008 6:19 PM:

" 1 cav wrote on Jun 21, 2008 10:17 AM:

"Tobacco shall not be denied."

++++++++++++++++++++

Nor shall it ever be, right Harry Reynolds?

Keep the health gurus running - Smokefest 2008! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 21, 2008 7:03 PM:

" shumphreys- "Mr. Lamphier need I explain how the sexual act works for you?"
-------
Whoa! You mean to tell me....that Jefferson was talking about "the sexual act" of the "Creator"...?

Mercy me!........and uhmmmm.......who was this "Creator" again.........? "

The Question wrote on Jun 21, 2008 10:44 PM:

" U.S. taxpayers are on the hook to the tune of $50 billion a year for Bush's so-called "Homeland Security" Department. And what to they get for their borrowed billions?
---------------
More Members of Congress have had their computers infiltrated by hackers within China than initially suspected, a lawmaker has revealed.
Reps. Frank Wolf (R-Va.), Chris Smith (R-N.J.), and Mark Kirk (R-Ill.) admitted to having data removed from their Capitol Hill computers last week, but Wolf says there are more.
"I'm not at liberty to say who they are, but there are other members," said Wolf, ranking member on the Appropriations Committee's State and Foreign Operations subcommittee.
Computers within the Foreign Affairs Committee, on which Smith serves as a senior Republican, were also infiltrated. Kirk suspects that other committees may have been attacked as well.
---------------
Yer doin' a heckuva job, Skeletor Chertoff! "

The Question wrote on Jun 22, 2008 7:05 AM:

" Army (are) officers making increasingly vocal complaints that the Air Force is not pulling its weight.
...now in Iraq, the Army has quietly decided to try going it alone for the important surveillance mission, organizing an all-Army surveillance unit that represents a new move by the service toward self-sufficiency, and away from joint operations.
....The work of the new aviation battalion was initially kept secret, but Army officials involved in its planning say it has been exceptionally active, using remotely piloted surveillance aircraft to call in Apache helicopter strikes with missiles and heavy machine gun fire that have killed more than 3,000 adversaries in the last year and led to the capture of almost 150 insurgent leaders.
....Civilian casualties are always a risk in air raids, particularly those attacking bomb-placing teams that operate in cities and villages. Army officials declined to say whether they believed the casualties from the new Army raids included innocent civilians.
------
Our beyond-bloated, fantastically greedy military-industrial complex has run out of tricked-up "enemies" in the world to compete with, and has finally had to start competing with itself. Anything to suck another trillion or two out of the dying U.S. economy. Mission accomplished! "

The Question wrote on Jun 22, 2008 2:03 PM:

" The military-industrial complex Pentagon, so obscenely bloated that it cannot even be audited, is a major factor in the national debt. Paying just the interest on that debt is now costing us $1 BILLION A DAY, and is driving inflation and the current economic upheaval in this nation. That debt is $9 trillion and counting, borrowed from the Chinese and others. And the right wingers have the sheer gall to call that process, hilariously enough, "national security."
The Bush-McCain warmonger gasbags are always shooting off their big mouths, threatening other countries, including China. Do you think the Chinese will loan us enough so that we can attack them? "

pj61938 wrote on Jun 22, 2008 4:04 PM:

" As he leaves the White House at the end of his second term, the President has a poll rating of only 23 per cent, and is widely disliked and even despised. His foreign policy has been judged a failure, especially in view of the long, painful, costly war that he declared, which is still not over.

He doesn't get on with his own party's presidential candidate, who is clearly distancing himself, and had lost many of his closest friends and staff to scandals and forced resignations. The New Republic, a hugely influential political magazine, writes that his historical reputation will be as bad as that of President Harding, the disastrous president of the Great Depression.

I am writing, of course, about Harry S Truman, generally regarded today as one of the greatest of all the 43 presidents, and the man who set the United States on the course that ended decades later in the defeat of Communism.

From The Telegraph UK "

Locke wrote on Jun 22, 2008 6:34 PM:

" "This is war - not a civil/police action! Enemy combatants captured on the fields of war simply do not have rights guaranteed by the US Constitution!"

War is a state between two nations.

Congress did not delcare a state of war between the US and another nation. So yes, this is a civil/police action of sorts -- authorized, but not declared, by Congress. Sorry, but it is not a war. We used combat troops in the War on Drugs, but it wasn't really a war (or a police action.) Men fight, men die, but it's not any more or less of a war than Vietnam or Korea.

For sake of arguement, let's say it is a true war, like some have asserted. Ever hear of a prisoner of war? Oh no! It's not really a war-war, it's just a war-of-sorts. It's a war when the term is useful to some, but not a war when it is no longer useful.

I'm not saying the fight ain't worth winning; I'm not saying it is or isn't a real war; I'm not saying anything about torture or the Geneva Conventions. All I am is saying is you can't have your cake and eat it too. "

miltmart wrote on Jun 22, 2008 9:52 PM:

" And Mr. Reynolds, I will once again ask the question I always ask when someone starts spouting about 'losing rights.' Please tell me what rights you or most of your fellow citizens have lost.

AS for the hearings on Friday, the moonbats in Congress holding hearings and questioning Scott McClellan because we know that's the most important thing this country has to worry about. Obviously, they are not listening to the millions who are contacting them out of concern about gas prices and when we are going to start doing something about drilling and finding other forms of powering our cars and heating our homes. Oh, I know, in the words of that great sage, Barack Obama, it won't make any difference for 5 years anyway so why even try to do anything? No, it's more important to find out who, if anybody, in the White House outed a CIA underling. Although I'm not sure how you can 'out' somebody so inconsequential.

But back to the column, Mr. Reynolds did get one thing right. We are not safe and we haven't been safe for a long time. We just didn't know it until 9/11. But it seems that somebody has done a pretty good job of keeping us safe for the last 7 years. "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:47 AM:

pj wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:49 AM:

" Locke said, "All I am is saying is you can't have your cake and eat it too."
****** Of all the armed conflicts that the United States has engaged in, there has only been 5 formal declarations of war: The War of 1812, The Mexican-American War, The Spanish-American War, World War I, and World War II. On 12 different occasions the U.S. has engaged in extended military engagements authorized by Congress: theses include The Vietnam War, The Persian Gulf War 1990, and the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The authority for The Korean War was cited under the authority of United Nations resolutions by President Truman and was not a war authorized by the U.S. Congress. In fact there have been at least different 125 occasions, where the President has acted without prior express military authorization from Congress. And never, during any of these conflicts, have enemy combatants on foreign soil, been granted the same Constitutional Rights as U.S citizens. So yes, we have had our cake and have eaten it too; in fact there has been a well established precedent of this. "

jon vanatta wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:52 AM:

" It is not "created" it is "Creator" that means a Creator God. Thomas Jefferson was not a deist because his writings indicate he believed in Jesus Christ and he proclaimed to be a Christian. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 23, 2008 7:41 AM:

" Thomas Jefferson was not a deist? Huh? Wow, talk about revisionist history.

That's right up there with Donny G's claim that Obama isn't really black and the resident village idiot's claim that Bush didn't lie. "

pj61938 wrote on Jun 23, 2008 7:47 AM:

" Locke's flow of il-logic: If (A) sometimes equals (B), and (B) sometimes equals (C), then (A) always equals (C). I'm afraid you're confusing sometimes and always- of sorts. You might want to educate yourself about U.S. history and maybe re-think your comprehension of logical analysis. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 23, 2008 8:17 AM:

" Mr. Lamphier Jefferson wasn't talking about a "Creator". I think you had better get yourself a good dictionary, your grasp of the English language is lacking. AND Mr. Vanatta, Jefferson was a Diest, he did not believe in a God that interferes in the affairs of men, he did respect Jesus, but I don't think that he believed in the divinity of Jesus. He can most accurately be described as a Humanist. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 23, 2008 9:07 AM:

" shumphreys- "Mr. Lamphier Jefferson wasn't talking about a "Creator". I think you had better get yourself a good dictionary, your grasp of the English language is lacking."
--------
Really shumphreys?

"all men are *created* equal, that they are endowed by their *Creator* with certain unalienable Rights"

hmmmmmmm........?

Where is my "grasp lacking" - shumphreys? "

father bob wrote on Jun 23, 2008 9:43 AM:

" miltmart wrote on Jun 22, 2008 9:52 PM:
" And Mr. Reynolds, I will once again ask the question I always ask when someone starts spouting about 'losing rights.' Please tell me what rights you or most of your fellow citizens have lost.

you sir can be imprisoned at any given moment without charges being filed and held for any duration without representation.....and people like you actually support these criminals. "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 23, 2008 10:10 AM:

" Help me to understand something . . . if Thomas Jefferson wasn't talking about a "Creator" when he used the word "Creator", what was he talking about and how was he able to get around not meaning "Creator" when he used the word "Creator" with all the other honorable and intelligent signers? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 23, 2008 10:42 AM:

" "...if Thomas Jefferson wasn't talking about a "Creator" when he used the word "Creator", what was he talking about and how was he able to get around not meaning "Creator" when he used the word "Creator" with all the other honorable and intelligent signers?"
-----------

Mattooner at Heart, you obviously need to get yourself a good dictionary, your grasp of the English language is somehow lacking....(sarcasm set to max).... "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 10:46 AM:

" Elsewhere in the Declaration, Tooner, Thomas Jefferson refers to "Nature's God," which is the god of deism. That's an impersonal god that sets the universe in motion but does not interfere in human affairs, and does not perform supernatural actions.
Jefferson believed most aspects of this creator could not be known. A rationalist, he rejected revealed religion - and that's the Bible - because revealed religion involves a violation of the laws of nature. For revelation or any miracle to occur, the laws of nature would necessarily be broken. Jefferson did not accept this violation of natural laws or reason.
So no miracles, no theological claptrap. The fact that Jefferson took the trouble to rewrite the gospels solely in order to strip out the miracles shows exactly what Jefferson's beliefs were.
Although we can fairly describe Jefferson as a deist, Jefferson himself did not permit his beliefs to he labeled. Certainly, he was not a Christian in any conventional sense, because he did not believe Jesus was divine.
He said, "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion...or in anything else."
Human rights derive from "Nature's God" because they are a part of our nature as human beings, hence "inalienable." "

miltmart wrote on Jun 23, 2008 10:46 AM:

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 23, 2008 12:06 PM:

" Question: I understand that elsewhere in the declaration he uses the term Nature's God. But that doesn't address his use of "Creator" to mean something other than "Creator" and that - since capitalized, making it a Proper Noun - it refers to a being of some kind.

Nor does that explain how he was able to get that document approved and passed if there were even one person who wasn't a deist or a theocrat or a whateverist and believed in the Christianity as the Bible describes it.

We know there was more than one Christian in the group . . . if Jefferson didn't mean "Creator" when he wrote "Creator", how did he get that past the others?

I believe that if it was by a simple majority vote, that would be recorded somewhere and just because I've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I'd sure like to read the details if they really do exist.

"Creator" didn't mean "Creator". Instead, it meant . . . . . . .

. . . . . . I'm waiting. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 23, 2008 12:15 PM:

" Question- "Thomas Jefferson refers to "Nature's God," which is the god of deism. That's an impersonal god that sets the universe in motion but does not interfere in human affairs, and does not perform supernatural actions."
--------
Ah, I see. So Jefferson believed in the Great Mystical ClockMaker in the sky. Sounds kind of far-fetched- doesn't it Question?

So, one wonders if Jefferson would have seen the as-of-then-unknown concepts of electronics, nuclear science, microbiology, quantum-physics, the relevance of time to a body in motion, as a violation of natures laws- as he understood them, or as merely claptrap. Or did Jefferson believe that his god was more than his (Jefferson's) current understanding of natures laws?

And if Jefferson's "god" was impersonal and did not "interfere" in human affairs- then what was the point of his god? Why did his god set the world in motion in the first place- and then just walk away?
--------
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" - WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 12:42 PM:

" Well maybe some of you have something to be guilty about or some reason to fear your own government. As for me, I have absolutely no reason to think anybody is ever going to care about anything I or the vast majority of my fellow citizens do. But I know that just makes me stupid, right?
-------
Lucky for you that people have never been framed, blackmailed, harassed and mistakenly imprisoned by the U.S. government, isn't it?
You might want to check out the history of the FBI, Uncle Milty. I'll help you get started.
* DICK GREGORY: In 1968, the activist/comedian publicly denounced the Mafia for importing heroin into the inner city. Did the FBI welcome the anti-drug, anti-mob message? No. Head G-man J. Edgar Hoover responded by proposing that the Bureau try to provoke the mob to retaliate against Gregory as part of an FBI "counter intelligence operation" to "neutralize" the comedian. Hoover wrote: "Alert La Cosa Nostra (LCN) to Gregory's attack on LCN."
* FREEDOM RIDERS: In 1961, black and white civil rights workers boarded interstate buses in the North and headed south in an effort to desegregate buses nationwide. The FBI learned that when the freedom riders reached bus depots in Alabama, the state police were going to give the Ku Klux Klan "15 uninterrupted minutes" to beat activists with baseball bats, clubs and chains. The Bureau allowed the violence to occur; activist Walter Bergman spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair, partially paralyzed.
* VIOLA LIUZZO: The white civil rights volunteer from Detroit-a mother of five-joined Martin Luther King's 1965 Selma (Ala.) campaign aimed at securing the right to vote for blacks. She was shot and killed after being chased 20 miles at high speed by a carload of four Klansmen. In the car was Gary David Rowe, a well-paid FBI informant inside the Klan; the violence-prone Rowe had played a big role in the beatings of freedom riders years earlier. "He couldn't be an angel and be a good informant," commented one of his FBI handlers.
* FRANK WILKINSON: A lifelong civil libertarian who led the campaign to abolish the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities, his FBI surveillance file spans 30 years and 132,000 pages. Estimated cost to us taxpayers: $17 million. Wilkinson never advocated or committed violence, but the file shows that the Bureau burglarized his offices and encouraged beatings of him. The FBI once heard of a right-wing scheme to assassinate Wilkinson-but took no action to inform him or protect him.
* MARTIN LUTHER KING: For years, the FBI used spying and infiltration in a relentless campaign to destroy King- to wreck his marriage, undermine his mental stability and encourage him to commit suicide. The Bureau created dissension among King's associates, disrupted fundraising efforts and recruited his bookkeeper as a paid agent after learning the employee was embezzling.
The FBI utilized "media assets" to plant smear stories in the press - some insinuating that King was a Soviet agent. One FBI media asset against King in the early 1960s was Patrick Buchanan, then an editorial writer in St. Louis. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 23, 2008 1:08 PM:

" On a much more serious note, I want to go back to Cindy Mccain's theft problems.

First she steals a husband from a woman confined to a wheel chair.(documented)

Then she steals drugs from a charity that were meant to go to poor people.(documented)

Now we find that she steals cookie recipes, not once but twice. (documented)

No wonder McSame has a pet name for her. (that can't be used on this site)

This begs the question, is she fit for the White House?

If her husband gets elected, will hash brownies become the official dessert for all state dinners?

I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for more drug related desserts for poor Cindy, so she won't have to keep stealing recipes. This could prove to be quite an embarrassment to the country.

Rotty, you usually good for an idea or two. What do you think?

Hey, this is serious stuff. "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 1:12 PM:

" The Army is trying to clean up its corruption, but Bush will have none of it.
---------------
The Army's march to overhaul its tarnished contracting system has been slowed by an unlikely foe: the White House.
The Office of Management and Budget, President Bush's administrative arm, has shot down a service plan to add five active-duty generals who would oversee purchasing and monitor contractor performance.
The boost in brass was a key recommendation from a blue-ribbon panel that last fall criticized the Army for contracting failures that undermined the war effort in Iraq and Afghanistan, wasted U.S. tax dollars, and sparked dozens of procurement fraud investigations.
As the Army's contracting budget ballooned _ from $46 billion in 2002 to $112 billion in 2007 _ it had too few experienced people negotiating and buying equipment and supplies, according to the panel. Worse still, there wasn't a single Army general in a job with contracting responsibilities. That meant the profession had little clout at a critical time. "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 2:41 PM:

" Clean up corrupt, no-bid Pentagon contracts? Outrageous! Why, that would go against everything Bush, McCain and the Republican Party stand for! "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 2:46 PM:

" Guess who's hoping for a nice terrorist attack on the U.S. prior to the election?
---------------
Fortune Magazine is running a profile on John McCain titled, "The evolution of John McCain." McCain's chief advisor, Charlie Black, is interviewed in the piece. Below is a choice quote from Black on why he thinks another terrorist attack on U.S. soil would help McCain win the presidency.
"On national security McCain wins. We saw how that might play out early in the campaign, when one good scare, one timely reminder of the chaos lurking in the world, probably saved McCain in New Hampshire, a state he had to win to save his candidacy - this according to McCain's chief strategist, Charlie Black. The assassination of Benazir Bhutto in December was an "unfortunate event," says Black. "But his knowledge and ability to talk about it reemphasized that this is the guy who's ready to be Commander-in-Chief. And it helped us." As would, Black concedes with startling candor after we raise the issue, another terrorist attack on U.S. soil. "Certainly it would be a big advantage to him," says Black."
---------------
Just keep your fingers crossed and close your eyes tight and wish real hard, little McBush, and maybe the Terror Fairy will give you a big surprise. "

father bob wrote on Jun 23, 2008 2:47 PM:

" Uppity-Watch, vol. 1

Karl Rove's latest to Republicans about how to message on Obama ...

"Even if you never met him, you know this guy. He's the guy at the country club with the beautiful date, holding a martini and a cigarette that stands against the wall and makes snide comments about everyone who passes by."

--Josh Marshall "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 23, 2008 3:31 PM:

" The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 2:46 PM: "Guess who's hoping for a nice terrorist attack on the U.S. prior to the election?" and then goes on to cite an article that states he got a boost from a foreign assassination.

Let's say every word of that article were absolute fact and that this was the most accurate quote ever cited in the history of the English language, how in the world does the fact that McCain got a boost from an assassination translate into McCain actually "hoping" there is a terrorist attack prior to the election?

How can one read those words and then be able to draw that conclusion from them? How can one read those words and then be able to read McCain's mind to the extent that one knows what McCain is "hoping" for?

I've heard of reading between the lines but this is totally amazing!!! Kreskin's got nothing on this!!! "

what? wrote on Jun 23, 2008 3:37 PM:

" Their are as many creators as versions of creation, which, throughout history, have been myriad. The bible offers one of them. I suspect the founding fathers were clear headed enough to have written god, if that's what they intended. In their wisdom they chose creator, which would include all mankind, omitting none. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 23, 2008 3:49 PM:

" what?- "In their wisdom they chose creator, which would include all mankind, omitting none."
--------
They kind of spit in the eye of atheism there- don't ya think?
Could it be said that they kind of injected their Deist principles and beliefs into the DoI? "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 4:50 PM:

" McCain's chief advisor says a terrorist attack on the U.S. "would be a big advantage" to McCain, Tooner. That is, at minimum, astoundingly tasteless and tone-deaf, akin to Obama's advisor saying what an advantage it would be if McCain were to keel over in the street dead of a heart attack. I can imagine how innocently you would construe a remark like that.
And any other meaning Black's remark might have is inescapably evil. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 23, 2008 5:04 PM:

" Thank you What? that is what I was trying to get at although I didn't explain myself clearly. Jefferson was not referring to a "Christian Creator God". He was clever enough with the English language to word things in a way that would be acceptable to many and inoffensive to many. I remember hearing somewhere that he would have left any reference to a God out of the document but others insisted that some reference be put in. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 23, 2008 5:55 PM:

" News flash. George Bush does not lie. This has been confirmed by the resident village idio...I mean the village expert on everything.... Do...I mean Bryant L. I have decided to agree with Do...I mean Bryant on everything from here on out. You tell 'em Do..I mean Bryant. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:07 PM:

" Harry Potter- "News flash. George Bush does not lie."
--------
Come now Harry, everybody lies at one time or another- I just don't see any evidence that the War in Iraq was based on lies. Now, go pour yourself a nice glass of lemonade and calm down. "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:09 PM:

" Questioned about Black's comments during a news conference, McCain said, "I cannot imagine why he would say it; it's not true. I've worked tirelessly since 9/11 to prevent another attack on the United States of America. My record is very clear."
Citing his work to establish a commission to investigate the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the United States, as well as his membership on the Senate Armed Services Committee, McCain added: "I cannot imagine it, and so, if he said that and I don't know the context I strenuously disagree."
In a statement, Obama spokesman Bill Burton said, "The fact that John McCain's top adviser says that a terrorist attack on American soil would be a 'big advantage' for their political campaign is a complete disgrace, and is exactly the kind of politics that needs to change."
Black, interviewed by reporters as he stood outside McCain's fundraiser, said: "I deeply regret the comments. They were inappropriate. I recognize that John McCain has devoted his entire adult life to protecting his country and placing its security before every other consideration." "

Rotty wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:14 PM:

" You're right, HP.
We'll have to keep a close eye on Cindy Lou.

If Memory Lapse McCain gets in, & Cindy Lou gives him any shuck & jive, & he tells her to "go bake some cookies", or possibly some "bionic brownies", we very well could be looking at an outbreak of epic proportions.

We sure as heck don't want that happening, especially when Coles county is already full of real winners.

I think ole Memory Lapse better keep Muffy under-wraps.
LOL! "

The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:18 PM:

" More of that "good Bush progress" in Iraq.
---------------
A member of an Iraqi city council shot at U.S. forces Monday outside Baghdad, killing at least three soldiers, two Iraqi Interior Ministry officials said.
Iraqi soldiers stand guard at a checkpoint Monday in Amara, where an offensive is under way against militants.
But the U.S. military said one coalition soldier and an "enemy" were killed and five others were wounded. The military said it is investigating.
The Iraqi official fired an AK-47 at U.S. troops after they entered the City Council building in al-Madaen, about 25 miles (40 kilometers) southeast of Baghdad, according to one Interior Ministry official. The councilman killed at least three people and wounded four, a ministry official said.
U.S. forces returned fire, killing the councilman, according to two Interior Ministry officials.
---------------
Don't worry, you won't be hearing anything about it on American broadcast news. The corporate news shows have been instructed to play down stories on the violence in Iraq for the next few months. Such news doesn't help get the Republican candidate elected, you see. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:23 PM:

" shumphreys- "Jefferson was not referring to a "Christian Creator God"
-------
Sooooo....you're saying that Jefferson was referring to every other god *except* a "Christian Creator God"?

But it could readily be understood to be the god of Deism?

So now- why did the others insist that some reference to a Creator be put into the document at all?

I mean- why did they bring the Almighty into the birth of their new nation in the first place? "

Locke wrote on Jun 23, 2008 7:07 PM:

" What?

If it's a war then we have prisoners of war. If it's not a war then we don't have prisoners of war. It's that simple.

Don't call it a war only when it suits your needs.

No flawed logic there. Just stating my logic is flawed doesn't make it so, neither doesn't the A, B, and C stuff.

Is it a war, or is it not a war? "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 23, 2008 7:34 PM:

" Oh, Question - there's no doubt that the statement was highly inappropriate and unforgivabley stupid as well as astoundingly tasteless and . . . well . . . freaking STUPID! No problem with me there.

But still - it was Black that said it and not McCain and even at that, it's not an indication that McCain would want another terrorist attack on the US before the election. That's all I'm saying. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 23, 2008 10:23 PM:

" Mr. Lamphier Jefferson was trying to be broad minded,and inclusive. He was writing a document for a new nation that he hoped would stand for a long time, he was aware of the pitfalls of theocracies, and he chose his words and crafted his sentences carefully.From the beginning men have tried to turn this nation into a Christian theocracy and it takes wise and vigilant citizens to keep that from happening.As to why some felt that God and specifically the Christian concept of God should be included, I can only speculate--they were superstitious, not well educated, narrow minded,misguided, self-righteous, fools, frightened, ... Why are some people believers and others not? Why are some people wiser, more far sighted, more respectful of the rights of others and some are not? "

Early Bird wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:40 AM:

" Holy Cow! I can just imagine the uproar from Fox news if one of Obama's top advisers had made such a statement, such as the one made by McCain's guy. I seriously doubt this story even made a blip on their fair and balanced radar screen. LOL! I wonder if McCain is saying "thank God for Fox news", Tom. Actually this has the smell of Karl Rove all over it.

I am surprised that this sites non-stop blathering war monger hasn't posted some convoluted message claiming it really didn't happen, or that it was somehow the fault of Obama or some other Democrat. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:49 AM:

" If a major terrorist attack occurred in the U.S. prior to the election, that would mean that, despite his unsustainable trillion-dollar military spending, the Republican president George W. Bush had failed to protect the American people from terrorists for the THIRD time in his tenure. The clear message would be that Republican presidents cannot be trusted to protect the nation, wouldn't it?
Perhaps it should be Obama's advisors who talk about how advantageous a terrorist attack would be for their candidate. i can just imagine how well-received that line of talk would be among the right wingers. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:24 AM:

" It seems that the Republican party is determined to send in it's second string. First Bush now McCain. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:27 AM:

" Thank you for the response shumphreys. The fact, as you stated, that Jefferson chose his words and crafted his sentences carefully, gives even more weight to the inclusion of a Creator in this document. Your biases towards Christianity are apparent when you state that a Christian concept of God is based in superstition, a lack of education, narrow mindedness, fear etc.... Would you deem it acceptable to attribute those same characteristics to other belief systems?

I have a different theory about the inclusion of a Creator in this founding document. And it is certainly more applicable for a Judeo-Christian God than it is for a Deist god; and that is the concept of- freewill.

Unlike the Deist version of a god who creates the world for no apparent reason, and then simply walks away; the Judeo-Christian God grants us freewill to choose our own way, and hopefully, ultimately, chose Him. Because that is the only way that we can give Him what he most desires- our love.

And it is this concept of a divinely given freewill that is specifically noted: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

And it is the Judeo-Christian God whose motive for freewill is love, including love for Him towards one another- a great moral basis for any civilization. And what higher rational and authority could the Founding Fathers have possibly cited as a valid justification to revolt against the all encompassing power and rule of an earthly king- than The Heavenly King.

The Heavenly King- whose ultimate desire is our love. And that is the one thing that we can only give to Him, when we are first free of will to do so. Hence- it was His divine intention for all of us to be created equal and free. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:33 AM:

" Well, what do you know? The ape is all out of ideas again for the disastrous war of aggression in which he has mired this nation.
---------------
The administration lacks an updated and a comprehensive Iraq strategy to move beyond the "surge" of combat troops President Bush launched in January 2007 as an 18-month effort to curtail violence and build Iraqi democracy, government investigators said yesterday.
While agreeing with the administration that violence has decreased sharply, a report released yesterday by the Government Accountability Office concluded that many other goals Bush outlined a year and a half ago in the "New Way Forward" strategy remain unmet.
---------------
Well. what can you expect of an ape, after all? "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:37 AM:

" Question . . . you may very well be right on what you wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:49 AM. That is not in debate. I've even surrendered the point that it was a terribly stupid thing to say.

But that doesn't address the question I have about even though Sen. McCain may benefit from some kind of attack (and I'd rather have Mickey Mouse in office than to have another attack), how one could conclude that Sen. McCain would actually HOPE for an attack.

How does one make that jump . . . that's all I want to understand. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 10:08 AM:

" Mr. Lamphier since Buddhists, Hindus, and atheists and all others also have "free will", don't believe in the Judaeo Christian concept of God you have put yourself into a dilemma. Was free will "granted" by God to them (non Christians) as well, in which case he must be just as satisfied with their choices of religion or no religion (he hasn't anihilated them), and even according to the Christian Bible their chances of gaining heaven are just as good as any one elses--admittance being granted according to their actions, how they treated their fellow man. OR could "free will" be just the natural part of the human condition, just as the lion and the lamb, the birds and the fish, also have "free will"? I happen to believe that "free will" is just a natural part of LIFE--It comes as part of a package deal. How we choose to use it is the klinker (or spanner in the works)! "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 24, 2008 10:21 AM:

" To shumphreys etal . . .

Please bear with me while I attempt to make a point . . . . . .

The St. Louis Cardinals are my favorite baseball team. That doesn't preclude them from being YOUR favorite team, or Q's or fb's or Harry Potter's or anyone else's. They can be OUR favorite team together and we can all be fans. Were someone to ask me, however, I would say, "My favorite team is the Cardinals" and not "My favorite team and shumphrey's and Q's and fb's and Harry Potter's favorite team is the Cardinals." I wouldn't include any of you in my response. Why? Because the fact that YOU are fans has no bearing on ME being a fan.

And so it is with statements like "The United States was founded on Christian principles." Some of those same principles upon which this country was founded may very well belong to Jews, Muslims, Taoists, atheists and agnostics as well, but that does not preclude them from being "Christian principles."

I don't know as much about the other faiths as I do Christianity although I have read about them and I continue to read about them (like your book for example). I still know more about Christianity than I do the other faiths. I do not know if ALL of the principles upon which this country was founded are shared by all faiths or not. I DO know, however that they are common to the Christian faith and hence the statement about the country founded on Christian principles.

That statement is not to the exclusion of the other faiths at all. Nor is an attempt to make Christianity the state religion - that's not what the founders wanted and that's not what we have. Christianity is not the only religion that believes "all men are created equal - it's just ONE of them that do. Christianity doesn't hold title to the concept of "ife, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" it's just ONE of the religions that believe in that concept.

We've known each other long enough that you know EXACTLY where my faith lies and from what standpoint I view circumstances and events. I know you well enough to know that you understand several religions and faiths better than I. I believe the US was at one time a nation of Christians, but I don't believe it was founded to be a Christian nation. However, I DO believe that it was founded on Christian principles - but not necessarily to the exclusion of any other faith.

Did that make sense????? "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 10:22 AM:

" And here's the kind of thing that, after five years, the gung ho warmonger Bush administration still has no idea how to deal with.
---------------
Six Iraqis, two American soldiers and two US civilians have been killed in a bomb attack at a local council office in eastern Baghdad.
One of the US civilians was an official with the state department and the other worked for the defence department, US embassy officials said.
Ten people were wounded including three members of the Sadr City council.
The US military has blamed the attack on what it calls "special groups", or rogue members of Shia Muslim militias.
Iraqi police said the attack was carried out by a suicide bomber, but investigations by the US military suggested a bomb had been planted in the building.
---------------
Don't worry. You won't be hearing about this on American broadcast news, so it hasn't happened. Everything is just peachy in Iraq. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:02 AM:

" Exodus 32:27-29 (King James Version)
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
----------
And would that be the Judeo-Christian God whose motive for freewill is love, including love for Him towards one another that youre talking about there, BL?
Yes, thats quite a moral basis for civilization, isnt it? "

BW wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:20 AM:

" So, Shump, you are saying that the founding fathers were "superstitious, not well educated, narrow minded, misguided, self-righteous, fools, frightened...". Gee, what does that then make you, for you are surely no match for them? I "remember hearing somewhere" that you don't have a clue. "

ed miller wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:28 AM:

" The Question wrote on Jun 23, 2008 6:18 PM:
" The corporate news shows have been instructed to play down stories on the violence in Iraq for the next few months. Such news doesn't help get the Republican candidate elected, you see. "

You guys are sounding more ridiculous every day with your stupid conspiracy theories. Are these the same news shows that filmed the moon landing in a studio in Hollywood? Besides, I thought only Fox and Rush were slanting the news in favor of the right wingers. Please tell us Mr. Question, where do YOU get your factual, unbiased news so that we can all be as informed as you. "

ed miller wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:39 AM:

" The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:49 AM:
" If a major terrorist attack occurred in the U.S. prior to the election, that would mean that...George W. Bush had failed to protect the American people from terrorists for the THIRD time in his tenure"

So Bush is responsible for all the administrations before him starting with CARTER (with the exception of Reagan) who failed to retaliate against terrorists.

Oh, don't worry yourself. The terrorists won't attack soon. They are betting on their man, Obama to get elected so he will pull out the troops and give them a chance to regroup and rearm. Heck, now they can even fund his campaign since he flip-flopped on his promise to use public campaign financing. How convenient. "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:39 AM:

" Actually, EB, FNC was wall-to-wall with the Charlie Black story - and they panned him over and over again for saying something truthful that could be so easily misconstrued and used against McCain. Obviously, IF there were another attack on our soil, McCain would benefit, because another attack would raise the level of consciousness terrorism brings to the USA. McCain is equipped to handle that as a CIC. Obama is simply not equipped to handle that. That's the truth part, but when Black's statements are twisted to imply that that's what the GOP WANTS to happen, well, that's the stupid part of what Black said. LOL, EB, do you define *war monger* as anyone who believes in defending the free world from terrorists? Better go tell that to the NG troops who just deployed from the Effingham unit - just so they know that you *support the troops*. I'll bet they'd be just as proud of you as you are proud of them, and their mission! "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:46 AM:

" I thought only Fox and Rush were slanting the news in favor of the right wingers. Please tell us Mr. Question, where do YOU get your factual, unbiased news so that we can all be as informed as you.
-----
From a variety of sources, of course, including the New York Times, which had a recent article about the corporate news media's refusal to cover Iraq.
According to data compiled by Andrew Tyndall, a television consultant who monitors the three network evening newscasts, coverage of Iraq has been "massively scaled back this year." Almost halfway into 2008, the three newscasts have shown 181 weekday minutes of Iraq coverage, compared with 1,157 minutes for all of 2007. The "CBS Evening News" has devoted the fewest minutes to Iraq, 51, versus 55 minutes on ABC's "World News" and 74 minutes on "NBC Nightly News." (The average evening newscast is 22 minutes long.)
 Tyndall's numbers mean Americans are getting about two minutes of Iraq coverage, per network, per week.
Fox News and Rush Limbaugh aren't the only Republican-slanted broadcast media, by the way. They are merely the most brazen right-wing propagandists. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:06 PM:

" To M@H when you (or anyone else) says that something is a "Christian principle" that does imply that it ONLY a Christian principle. When I say that the principles are "human principles" or "Universal principles" I am being inclusive. There is a VERY BIG difference in perception. You may not intend to be exclusive but your words say otherwise. Just like a Christian saying that they love me but hope I burn in you no where for not believing in what they believe. In human relations, perceptions, are very important. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:10 PM:

" Mr. Lamphier you asked for reasons why some of the founding fathers insisted that God be included in the Declaration and I gave you a variety of possibilities. There could also be more possibilities that I didn't mention. What any one individuals motive was, I can not say (I haven't a clue) and they are not here to speak for themselves. We can only speculate. Why are you a believer? "

even steven wrote on Jun 24, 2008 1:39 PM:

" At one time, I thought the Republicans wanted to take away all my rights, and the Democrats wanted to take away all my money. Now I can't tell the difference. Both parties are a sick joke.

Our votes aren't being represented very well at all. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 2:05 PM:

" According to the GAO, the percentage of Iraqi units "capable of performing operations without U.S. assistance" remains roughly 10 percent. Thus, while the number of forces has risen by more than 150,000, the actual assistance that American troops are receiving is far more negligible. Adding salt to the wound, the GAO notes: "Since 2003, the United States has provided more than $20 billion to develop Iraqi security forces."
-----
Good Bush progress, baby! "

ed miller wrote on Jun 24, 2008 2:33 PM:

" The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 11:46 AM:.
According to data compiled by Andrew Tyndall, a television consultant who monitors the three network evening newscasts, coverage of Iraq has been "massively scaled back this year"."

DUH,...It's an ELECTION year. Ya think maybe they might have had a lot of other stuff to report on? It doesn't take a television consultant to state the obvious. Sorry to poke holes in your right wing conspiracy theories. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:05 PM:

" TQ- "And would that be the Judeo-Christian God whose motive for freewill is love, including love for Him towards one another that youre talking about there, BL?
---------
Nope- not at all, TQ. I think the stories in the Old Testament of a homicidal and even genocidal God are a product of the authors hyperbole rooted in the tribal culture of the times. It was this Old Testament "understanding" of the coming Messiah as a warrior-king, that confused the Jews and that made a peaceful and passive carpenter from Nazareth hard to except. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:08 PM:

" shumphreys- "Mr. Lamphier since Buddhists, Hindus, and atheists and all others also have "free will", don't believe in the Judaeo Christian concept of God you have put yourself into a dilemma."
------
All people have free will, shumphreys- the question the Founding Fathers were trying to answer was- by whose authority. Their answer- The Creator. My theory- What Creator better fits that definition than- the Judeo-Christian God.
And to assume that God is happy with how we use our free will simply because he hasn't annihilated us is contradictory to the concept of free-will- isn't it?
And the Bible doesn't say that admittance to heaven is granted solely on actions- but by faith and actions.
And yes- freewill is a natural part of life. And God is life. That's exactly what the Founding Fathers were saying. "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:24 PM:

" I didn't really think that "when you (or anyone else) says that something is a "Christian principle" that does imply that it ONLY a Christian principle." but I guess I was wrong.

That means when I say I'm from Mattoon, that implies that nobody else can make that claim. I guess that means when I say I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan it implies that nobody else can be.

That also means when I say I'm extremely handsome, intelligent and witty, that means . . . oh wait . . . I AM the only one on that one.
:)M@H "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:27 PM:

" shumphreys- "We can only speculate."

That is true.
------

shumphreys- "Why are you a believer?"

That's probably the toughest question I have ever had on this site.

I'll keep it simple- I've seen several people in my life from various backgrounds, (one on their deathbed) whose lives were completely transformed by Christ. As for myself- I've experienced a peace and serenity in Christ that is hard to describe- but is very real. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:33 PM:

" "Nope- not at all, TQ. I think the stories in the Old Testament of a homicidal and even genocidal God are a product of the authors hyperbole rooted in the tribal culture of the times. "
-------
Well, whatever you think, I'm afraid that IS the "Judeo" part of the "Judeo-Christian God" you're talking about. You can't reject that part of the Bible but cite other parts as divine authority and expect to retain any credibility. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:35 PM:

" So Bush is responsible for all the administrations before him starting with CARTER (with the exception of Reagan) who failed to retaliate against terrorists.
-----
No. Bush is responsible for failing to prevent the two terrorist attacks that occurred while he was allegedly serving as president. "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 24, 2008 3:52 PM:

" Bryant . . . . you're on a roll there but I think I have to interject something. Mr. Question's scriptural citations come exclusively from the first five books of the Old Testament which are known as the history of the Jewish people. We can also note three additional points from these five books: 1) the kingdoms, countries and people against whom God directed his wrath were all people who turned their backs on God, rejected him and worshipped other gods. 2) God also directed His wrath onto the Jews when THEY turned their backs on God, and 3) there is nowhere in the Pentateuch where God says, "Go thou and do likewise."

God enacted His wrath several times throughout history, but always because people denied Him, turned their backs on Him and worshipped other gods. He does not enact His wrath on people any more. He has given us another way to reconcile ourselves with Him other than experience His wrath. That's not to say we WON'T experience His wrath one of these days, but we dont HAVE to.

Outside of that small point, Mr. Lamphier, we are in tandem. (Now watch somebody try to turn "tandem" into "lockstep".) "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:00 PM:

" Rep. Tom Cole (R-Okla.), chair of the National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC), said Tuesday that Barack Obama's decision to break a pledge and forgo public financing for the general election was "Nixonian to the core."
---------------
So Obama is Nixon, now, eh? LOL.
I guess Republican candidates have decided to run against the Republican Party this time out. Smart move. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:11 PM:

" TQ- "You can't reject that part of the Bible but cite other parts as divine authority and expect to retain any credibility."
---------
Divine authority means divinely inspired- not necessarily divinely literal. The context of any given passage is very important. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:14 PM:

" M@H- "Outside of that small point, Mr. Lamphier, we are in tandem. (Now watch somebody try to turn "tandem" into "lockstep".)"
--------
It's ok to differ on that point M@H.
No problem. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:30 PM:

" Divine authority means divinely inspired- not necessarily divinely literal. The context of any given passage is very important.
-----
So you're admitting that parts of the Bible are false, BL. Glad to hear it. FYI, the remainder of the Bible is also false. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:48 PM:

" TQ- "So you're admitting that parts of the Bible are false, BL."
-------
Not at all, TQ. Metaphorical and symbolic, but with a divinely inspired message that is hardley false. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:49 PM:

" TQ- "FYI, the remainder of the Bible is also false."
-----

Really? How do you know? "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:52 PM:

" Q: I'm surprised at you! After all we've been through, for you to claim ANY part of the Bible is false is just a slap in the face. I'm crushed!

It's like I've never shown you that there's NO part of the Bible that is false.

It hurts me deep. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:55 PM:

" Honestly M@H, sometimes you are so dense. Saying that "I am not a Cardinals fan" is not saying that all people are not Cardinals fans. When I say that the principles this nation were founded on ARE NOT Christian principles why do Christians get their dander up?I only meant that they are Universal principles not JUST Christian principles? If you say, "I am a Christian" does that mean that noone else can be a Christian? Use your own sentences with different words to see how foolish your statement is. Words are VERY important, both in where and how you use them. Isn't it better to be inclusive then exclusive? The problem with "Truth" and "Amomoftwo" are the implications of their words go far beyond what their words actually say. "

The Question wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:56 PM:

" Not at all, TQ. Metaphorical and symbolic, but with a divinely inspired message that is hardley false. "
------
I see. So it's false, but you don't want to admit it's false. Tell me, did your "Judeo-Christian God" order the slaying of the women and children and the enslavement of the virgins, as it says in Numbers, or did he not?
If he did, he's a monster. If he did not, the Bible is false. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:24 PM:

" Mr. Lamphier first, the Declaration says "THEIR" creator not "THE" creator, not "God". THEIR implies whoever they think their creator may be. Your theory that the Christian God is the best fit is ONLY YOUR theory, YOUR Belief. Second, actually there is a passage in the Bible that states that admittance is by actions alone, my favorite statement, I have mentioned it several times, the Judgment of the Gentiles, Matthew 25:31. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:43 PM:

" TQ- "Tell me, did your "Judeo-Christian God" order the slaying of the women and children and the enslavement of the virgins, as it says in Numbers, or did he not?"
------
The Bible says that he did- because God reached a point when the sins of a nation or people had become so outrageous, that He judged them to be beyond redemption. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 5:59 PM:

" shumphreys- "Your theory that the Christian God is the best fit is ONLY YOUR theory, YOUR Belief."
-------
Yeah- shumphreys, I clearly stated that when I said- "I have a different theory about the inclusion of a Creator in this founding document."

------
Matthew 25:31 talks about the importantce of works- but in no way negates faith.

In fact the Bible says that one needs other.

James 2:24 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:08 PM:

" Mr. Lamphier you didn't ask but since you answered my question I will explain why I am not a Christian since it has bearing on this thread of the conversation. When I was 20 I read Siddhartha by Herman Hesses and I realized that Christianity did not have the corner on TRUTH, there were other TRUTHS out there and I set out to find them. Along the way I discovered that there is one commonality held by all the worlds great religions, a common thread that appears in their holy scriptures, a common thread discovered by the worlds great philosophers and theologians, a common thread that ran through the books of my childhood and can be found today in Tolkiens Ring Trilogy and even dare I mention it the Harry Potter books. That common thread is expressed in different terms but the end meaning is the same, and it is that what matters the most, not what church you follow or whether you follow any BUT how you treat your fellow man. AND that is what you find in the passage from Matthew I mentioned earlier. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:16 PM:

" TQ, How do you know that the remainder of the Bible is also false? "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:25 PM:

" shumphreys: The "dense" thing hurt me deeply. I'll stop the bleeding and sniffling long enough to try to answer "When I say that the principles this nation were founded on ARE NOT Christian principles why do Christians get their dander up?"

I believe you that when you say the US was not founded on Christian principles that you mean they are not exclusive to Christianity but they are universal principles and not property of Christianity only. I believe you with all my heart. I've read your posts. I've read your book. I get it.

If I were to state the US was founded on principles common ONLY to Christianity, that would not be true. But that's not what anyone is saying.

They're Christian principles. They can also be Jewish principles. They can also be Muslim principles. They can also be Taoist princples. They can also be athiest principles or agnostic principles. Nobody has a sole claim to them.

But to say they are NOT Christian principles is simply incorrect.

A very wise friend of mine once said, "Words are VERY important, both in where and how you use them."

You KNOW I'll agree with you when you say, "It's MUCH better to be inclusive as opposed to exclusive" but not everyone speaks or understands that which is implied.

To say the principles are Christian is to be inclusive. Period. It implies only what it says. However, to say they are NOT Christian is to be EXclusive since it omits instead of includes.

Often, Christians are very similar to non-Christians in this respect: They'll jump on ANYTHING a non-Christian will say to have the opportunity to tell you you're going to he11 - just like a non-Christian will jump on anything a Christian says that's clearly FREAKING STUPID!

I'd bet you a hot fudge sundae that if you were to state the US was not founded on princples exclusive only to Christianity, absolutely nobody would dare argue with you. After all . . . I think that's what you really mean. If someone can't read that into what you write - is it really THEIR fault?

With respect - M@H "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:41 PM:

" shumphreys- "and it is that what matters the most, not what church you follow or whether you follow any BUT how you treat your fellow man."
--------
I can respect that- shumphreys.

But.....does that also include how you treat your fellow Christians who are "superstitious, not well educated, narrow minded,misguided, self-righteous, fools, and are frightened."
--------

And thank you for sharing your story- I appreciated it. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 6:51 PM:

" So shumphreys- what about the after-life? Is there any life after death for you? Is there a supreme being in your beliefs? "

Rotty wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:14 PM:

" "they're embracing 'Big Brother'"

.......

One question....
Who's embracing Big Sister?

.......

Ya know, I think I'm still hearing the Twilight Zone music revuberating in my head.
LOL!
:-P

[sings]
Gloria.... Was it something he said.... All the voices in your head.... Calling Gloria.... "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:37 PM:

" To M@H you may think that saying the principles are "Christian principles" is all inclusive but it isn't. The implication for many is that you are saying ONLY Christians hold these principles. I am trying to get the point across that it is better, less confusion, inclusive not exclusive to say that the principles this nation is founded on are UNIVERSAL principles, or HUMAN principles. As many have shown us on these pages in the past, there is a belief among many Christians in this area especially, that Buddhists, Atheists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc. etc. etc. do not hold the same principles, value the same things, act as responsibly as citizens of their communities, hold the same moral values as Christians hold, believe in baseball, applepie, etc, etc, etc. I have been struggling to get the message across that these principles are UNIVERSAL held by people all over this world, without regard to race, creed, national origin, sexual preference, gender, religion or lack thereof. Saying these principles are "Christian principles" says otherwise, whether that is your intent or not. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 24, 2008 7:54 PM:

" First of all Mr. Lamphier I never said that all Christians are superstitious, not well educated, narrow minded, misguided, self-righteous, fools, and are frightened. At the time you had asked me why our founding fathers insisted on putting God into the Declaration and I have you a whole list of possible explanations and later I said that there could be other explanations but we will never know since they are dead and gone.

Now to your other questions, if you mean a Supreme Being as a fatherly figure that created the world and interferes in the affairs of men when he feels like it. NO. I think that God has been created in Mans image not vice versa.As to life after death, NO. We will all return to that primordial stew pot/cosmic stew from whence we all came. If you would like to know more I will send you a copy of my book just as I sent M@H a copy. All I ask is that you promise to read it, not trash it, pass it on to someone else or back to me if you don't want to keep it.If you would like it send me your address, my address is in the phone book. "

what? wrote on Jun 24, 2008 8:04 PM:

" Any religion that requires one to no longer ask, because they have the only answer, seems an ilogical proposition to me. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 24, 2008 9:29 PM:

" shumphreys- "if you mean a Supreme Being as a fatherly figure that created the world and interferes in the affairs of men when he feels like it. NO."
------

So do you believe in a being who set the world in motion- then walked away?

And could you elaborate on: "I think that God has been created in Mans image not vice versa." "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 5:21 AM:

" "The Bible says that he did- because God reached a point when the sins of a nation or people had become so outrageous, that He judged them to be beyond redemption. "
--------
You are careful to state "The Bible says that he did." But do you believe that he did, BL?
And if so, do you think ordering the slaughter of children and the enslavement of young virgins is just? Or does it sound more like the action of just another vicious, primitive tribal deity? "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 5:25 AM:

" Here's more of that "good Bush progress" for you.
---------------
A roadside bomb killed three American soldiers and an interpreter north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said Wednesday, and Iraqi police reported 14 Shiite gunmen were arrested after fighting south of the capital.
In Baghdad, meanwhile, American soldiers using specially trained dogs sifted through the wreckage Wednesday of an office in Sadr City where a bomb killed 10 people, including four Americans working to restore local government in the former Shiite militia stronghold. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 7:43 AM:

" TQ- "You are careful to state "The Bible says that he did." But do you believe that he did, BL?"
----
Yes, I believe it is possible he did.

TQ- "And if so, do you think ordering the slaughter of children and the enslavement of young virgins is just?"
-----
No, but then I can't begin to read the mind of God in an event that happened thousands of years ago.

TQ- "Or does it sound more like the action of just another vicious, primitive tribal deity? "
------
Actually yes- yes it does. Especially by Christ's standards. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 7:47 AM:

" You seem to be avoiding my question, TQ:

How do you know the Bible is entirely false?

And while we're at it; How do you know that there is no God? "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:36 AM:

" Bryant Lamphier: Take shumphreys up on her offer to send you her book. Even if you don't agree with everything that's in it, it's a very interesting read. It offers alternative viewpoints to various topics that gives the reader insight into thought process of those with an opinion other that those we Christians tend to hang with.

The book may make you mad at times but it WILL make you think - which I think is her ultimate goal. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:44 AM:

" Mr. Lamphier at this point in time no one knows what set the world in motion, the chances that it was a space probe from some distant galaxy like the genesis project on an old Star Trek film are just as likely as the happy accident in that primordial cosmic soup as likely as a thought from the Buddha or...... we humans don't know at this point in time but that doesn't mean that we won't know at some future point or that because we don't know it must have been done by a God. As to your next question, it is simple, God is a figment of mans imagination. I simply tried to word it more gently the first time! Every argument I have ever heard for why there is a God is full of holes and I have pretty much read and heard every one. As I offered read my book and you will learn more about my thoughts. There isn't enough space here to go into more detail. "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:52 AM:

" I know there's no God in the same way you know there's no Zeus, BL. We're both atheists. I just believe in one less god than you do. "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:58 AM:

" DUH,...It's an ELECTION year. Ya think maybe they might have had a lot of other stuff to report on? It doesn't take a television consultant to state the obvious. Sorry to poke holes in your right wing conspiracy theories.
------------
Thats right, Eddie. CNN has room for stories about melon-head whales, cardiology tips, in-flight email, a town that wants to ban sofas, a plagiarizing professor, Cuban surfers, bewildering spa moments, violence in Israel, violence in Pakistan and violence in Harare, but little or no room for stories about violence in the sixth year of Bush Iraq war quagmire. CNN didnt even bother to report the new GAO finding that the surge has failed.
Thats why Iraq coverage has been massively scaled back this year on the broadcast corporate media. No one needs to hear about the troops and citizens slain in occupied Iraq until they get all their bewildering spa moments straightened out for them. "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 10:48 AM:

" Oh, by the way, I know the Bible is false because the only evidence of its truth is tautological, BL. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. And why? Because the Bible says so.
The Bible contains metaphoric truth, BL, but it is literally false. Jesus' insights, for example, may be true, but the entire context in which they are presented is false - he was a human being, not a god, and human beings do not rise from the dead.
And how do I know that? I give the problem a shave with Occam's Razor. The world is full of claptrap religions making fantastic, supernatural claims that no credible witness ever sees. What's the simplest answer? Is it more likely that all those fantastic, unseen miracles have happened, and that for example the universe actually does rest on the shell of a cosmic turtle, or that the people who make those claims are delusional and/or lying? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 11:00 AM:

" TQ- "I know there's no God in the same way you know there's no Zeus, BL."
-------
I don't "know" there's no Zeus- TQ
I "believe" there's no Zeus.

TQ- "We're both atheists. I just believe in one less god than you do."
-------
Ah....so you "believe" there is no God.
So you have "faith" that there is no God.

Well how about that, TQ- we both have "faith". I just have faith in a more logical belief than you do. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 11:07 AM:

" humphreys- "Every argument I have ever heard for why there is a God is full of holes and I have pretty much read and heard every one."
--------
I see shumphreys.
Maybe you could explain to me what "energy" created the universe-
since energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

And how exactly did that original "energy" come into being.......if by it's very nature....it is.....infinite? "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 11:43 AM:

" McCain Last Night: World War III Would Justify A Draft
---------------
McCain In 2006: We're In The Early Stages Of World War III
---------------
Clunk! There's the sound of the other jackboot dropping. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:39 PM:

" Thanks for the plug M@H, my whole purpose is to get people to think.Too many have been encouraged to never question, to never think. I think it was Marx that said that religion was necessary to keep the masses happy and compliant. Many Christians have been told to "just believe", "don't question". Because of that they have become easy targets and easily manipulated by charlatans,politicians, con men,and those who don't have their best interests at heart. "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 1:32 PM:

" Here's what conservative columnist Andrew Sullivan has to say about Iraq: "This obviously isn't about Iraq, as we are fast discovering. It's about an ever-greater American entanglement in the Middle East in part to secure oil supplies we need to wean ourselves off and in part a foolish attempt to protect Israel."
"...The truth is: We didn't need this war, we now se., and neither did the Israelis; and a war that was originally about our existential security should not be morphed into a permanent US occupation of a region that chews up outsiders and spits them out with alarming economy and frequency." "

miltmart wrote on Jun 25, 2008 2:16 PM:

" Maybe I've missed it in all the ramblings on this site but there's a simple reason there is less news out of Iraq. The news is good, things are improving. We're winning this war. Let's face it, Bush haters don't want to hear that. "

miltmart wrote on Jun 25, 2008 2:17 PM:

" and I should have added....and the media obliges. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 2:37 PM:

" M@H- "The book may make you mad at times but it WILL make you think - which I think is her ultimate goal."
-----
Physics makes me think, M@H.

It makes me think that there is a God.

Perhaps shumphreys ultimate goal should involve thinking about Physics. "

father bob wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:02 PM:

" The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:58 AM:Thats why Iraq coverage has been massively scaled back this year on the broadcast corporate media. No one needs to hear about the troops and citizens slain in occupied Iraq until they get all their bewildering spa moments straightened out for them. """

why no pictures of the wounded? why no pictures of the coffins being transported or off loaded? why a president that has never attended a soldier's funeral? why a president who will not subject himself to news conferences? as long as it can run in the background where people don't see it, it's like it's happening in a different world much detached from ours....and as long as that's done, we can be lied to about things such as the economy and how good we really have it. "

father bob wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:04 PM:

" George WTF Bush is no better than the despot he had hanged.....we can only hoe he comes to the same end. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:33 PM:

" I have already explained that Mr. Lamphier. We don't know at this time if the first cause was from an outer space probe from a distant planet, a thought from the Buddha, or the happy cosmic accident. But I repeat there is absolutely no reason to believe that a God created the earth. There are many reasons why one should believe that a God didn't create the earth. There is no reason to believe that we come to know what the first cause was. The biblical account is fictional/allegorical/mythological, there is plenty of proof of that. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:46 PM:

" Tell me TQ- If energy cannot be created nor destroyed- then what infinite energy created the universe?

Give that a little shave with Occam's Razor and tell me what you come up with-TQ. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:53 PM:

" shumphreys- "But I repeat there is absolutely no reason to believe that a God created the earth."
-------
Of course there is shumphreys, what infinite energy created the universe? "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 3:57 PM:

" I have thought about physics Mr. Lamphier and there isn't a single law that proves that there is a God. Have you ever thought that your "beliefs" just might be wrong? It doesn't matter. Because what "you believe" is irrelevant. Your beliefs matter only to you and if they help you to be a better person than that is great. If they help you to be a "worser" person well that is something different.Too many have shown us on this sight and in the paper that there beliefs have helped them to become worse people, their beliefs have been used to justify and promote fear and hate of all of those that are different from them. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 4:30 PM:

" shumphreys- "I have thought about physics Mr. Lamphier and there isn't a single law that proves that there is a God."
-------
Really? The fact that an infinite energy obviously created the universe- doesn't give you pause?

Have you ever thought that your "beliefs" just might be wrong- shumphreys?

I have. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 4:44 PM:

" TQ- "I know the Bible is false because the only evidence of its truth is tautological, BL. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. And why? Because the Bible says so."
------
Isn't that true of most written history- TQ? "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 4:49 PM:

" First of all Mr. Lamphier you don't know that an "infinite" energy created the universe nor where such a source might have come from. The source could have been finite. i.e. the space probe that set off the Big Bang was destroyed in the process OR God destroyed him/herself in the process of creation (shot his wad so to speak). Once set in motion the universe is cyclical the end or collapse of a universe unto itself is the impetus that sets off the next Big Bang.What if I am right and you are wrong? Then what Mr. Lamphier? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 5:09 PM:

" shumphreys- "First of all Mr. Lamphier you don't know that an "infinite" energy created the universe nor where such a source might have come from."
------
You don't understand, shumphreys- it is an established scientific fact- a basic rule of physics that: Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. That by it's very definition is infinity. That is also indicative that energy (infinite energy) had to have created the universe.
-------
shumphreys- "the space probe that set off the Big Bang was destroyed..."

Who created the space probe? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 6:12 PM:

" shumphreys- "Too many have shown us on this sight and in the paper that there beliefs have helped them to become worse people, their beliefs have been used to justify and promote fear and hate of all of those that are different from them."
--------
You do realize of course- that you have just described the majority of Atheists and anti-Christians on this site- don't you shumphreys? "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 6:55 PM:

" My statement no more describes the "majority" of atheists and non-Christians than it describes the "majority" of Christians. There are good and not so good Christians, and good and not so good non-Christians. Individuals from both groups can choose to use their knowledge or beliefs to make this world a better place for ALL people or they can choose otherwise. I have chosen to take the stand in support of ALL people. What way have you chosen Mr. Lamphier? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 7:14 PM:

" shumphreys- "There are good and not so good Christians, and good and not so good non-Christians."
-----
Thank you for the clarification- shumphreys.

shumphreys- What way have you chosen Mr. Lamphier?
------
Christ's way- shumphreys
But I have a loooooong way to go still. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 7:25 PM:

" No kidding! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:24 PM:

" Now now now- shumphreys. Remember your Truth. "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:34 PM:

" ------
Isn't that true of most written history- TQ? "
------
No. Most of written history does not claim to be evidence for, and inspired by, an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving, all-punishing author of the universe. Most of written history refers to sources other than itself. The Bible begs the question. "

The Question wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:40 PM:

" -------
I don't "know" there's no Zeus- TQ
I "believe" there's no Zeus.
-------
I see. By the same token then, you don't know there's no Santa Claus, or Tooth Fairy, or Peter Pan, or Harvey the Invisible Six-Foot Rabbit. That would make you awfully credulous, wouldn't it?
I know those things don't exist, along with Zeus and God, because I have no evidence for them whatsoever and no reason whatsoever to even consider the possibility of their literal existence. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 25, 2008 8:44 PM:

" I told the truth Mr. Lamphier, I couldn't agree with you more, you have a long way to go. "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:41 PM:

" Who created the space probe? Bryant, you're probably dead-ended with Sue. In case you havent noticed, she's not listening to you. Instead, shes furiously posting another response to support her anti-creator ideology. Try this scenario. Say you and Sue are sitting down enjoying a Bud and a bottomless glass of Chablis in some neutral zone. All of a sudden, Sue notices three marbles nearby, all lined up in a row (the ones you placed there while she was on her last potty break). Nearly done with her fourth glass of white, Sue asks you how the hell those marbles got there, and with a straight face you say: Well, I'm thinking the third one, the one closest to us, came to be in that position because the second one in line bumped it and caused it to move where it is right now. Being a little slow on the uptake, but still with an inquisitive mind, she slurs a bit and says: Well, let me ax you thish, how did the schecun one come to occupy the schpasche it has? You act like you're in deep thought scratching your head and thumbing your mustache, just to head-fake her, and you reply: Well, Sue, it appears that the first marble struck the second marble in such a way as to move it to the position it now holds. Somewhat impressed with your confidence and your display of logic, but still thinking she has you stumped, Sue finally asks the key question: Well, Brad, er whatever yer name isch, how did the firsch marble come to the plaache it now huldzz, cuz jes in case you ain't noticed, there ain't no other marble to move it there? And you say: Well, Sue, that there marble, the very first one, is what is known as the Prime Mover - the Creator, GOD-D-D-D you shout, the ALMIGHTY!! Startled, Sue chokes on her last sip of wine and when nervously reaching for her glass for a quick chug of what remains in the bowl, tips the stemware and spills wine all over herself and the linen. She hurriedly excuses herself from the bar, runs down the sidewalk screaming, runs across the street without even looking for cars. A car hits her, and just before she meets her maker, right then and there, she crosses herself. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:41 PM:

" TQ- "Most of written history refers to sources other than itself."
------
What? Many times written history is mans account of historical events, substantiated only by the written history itself. The Bible is mans written account of historical events- as well as symbolic references, inspired by God. The Bible itself is made up of many different books and references corroborating the same events. For instance, the four books of the Gospel or the Hebrew text of the Old Testament and the Greek Septuagint text of the Old Testament. Then there is the Dead Sea Scrolls- yet another source accounting some of the same events. You're simply dismissing them because they cite Divine inspiration as well as supernatural events.

But I will state again the very point that you seem to be avoiding like the plague- the beginning of our very existence- our very essence- can only be explained by an infinite energy. An energy that is still revealing itself in many different forms as our human history unravels. If that is not evidence of a Supreme Being or at least evidence of the possibility of a supreme being- then what is it? Can you wrap you head around an infinite energy? Because I can't. Can you truly fathom infinity? I can't. But does that make it any less real? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 9:48 PM:

" shumphreys- "I told the truth Mr. Lamphier, I couldn't agree with you more, you have a long way to go."
------
I was refering to your "Truth" - "how you treat your fellow man"

It looks like you have a loooong way to go too- shumphreys. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 25, 2008 10:35 PM:

" Wow Tom- I could picture the entire scenario. So the key to Sue's enlightenment is- fruit of the vine!

....and a full bladder........ "

Early Bird wrote on Jun 26, 2008 4:56 AM:

" Isn't it amazing how these threads evolve into something totally unrelated to the original idea put forth?

Having said that, does anyone else find it rather odd that the after years of complaining about Bill Clinton's infidelity, the very same folks have come down with a bad case of amnesia regarding John McCain's philandering past?

Those on the left justified Clinton's behavior by pointing out that it was a private affair.

These are the same folks that carried on for months about Clinton's marijuana admission, but turned the other way when it came to the Bush cocaine allegations.

The Clinton supporters pointed out it was just marijuana, and the Bush supporters went into total denial that it could even be possible, or that it was a youthful discretion.

It's amazing what tolerance we have, for bad behavior, when it come to our own party.

The point I'm trying to make is that all too often our morals, values, ethics and ideas are party line driven.

This phenomena occurs with people from both sides.

The sad part is that this is why we keep electing the same type of people over and over, from both parties.

Until we start looking at the individual, and get away from just voting along party lines, nothing will change. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:27 AM:

" Honestly Mr. Andres you can't have an honest conversation without demonizing the other, in this case turning me into a drunk, on chablis non the less. You have serious problems. We all know those marbles on the table were placed there by a human hand and even Mr. Lamphier doesn't claim to be God. I suggest you try again. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:32 AM:

" Yes Mr. Lamphier I have come farther than you it appears, and I hope that I never reach that point where I "know it all". If I ever do it will be time for St. Peter to beam me up, there won't be any reason to hang around this planet any longer, at least in this time. It will be time to be recycled so I can come back and give it another go.Life is all about growing, developing yourself physically, mentally and yes even spiritually so that you can become the best possible person that you can be. AND life carries responsibilities, to do the best you can to make this world a better place for ALL people not just those of "your kind". "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 26, 2008 8:18 AM:

" Bryant, the key to the non-believer's enlightenment comes at the very end of their time here when, all of a sudden, they finally realize that a power infinitely greater than they are will determine their plight in the here-after. I understand that my version of cause and effect (my marbles story) may not be deep enough for some of the more philosophically-intense on here, but it has always satisfied my own need for logical PROOF as to the existence of a Supreme Being. We really shouldnt have doubts (like poor TQ claims to have) about whence we came.

If we suffer any anxiety, it should only be about where were headed when this is over. That's when various brands of religion come into play and causes all the consternation amongst us. Just my personal opinion, but I think the problem Sue struggles with is the ever so obvious FACT that there is only one true church, as in religion only one righteous way. The inherent ambiguity of our collective beliefs and rituals drives some folks crazy. LOL, its like door number one, two or three where, if you make the wrong choice, you may go home with a door prize instead of the million-dollar jackpot. "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 26, 2008 8:32 AM:

" Come on now, Sue! You didn't see any of the humor in my story; you didn't even smile or chuckle? I wasn't demonizing you, Sue. Lighten up. As to your follow up post to Bryant about you coming back to this earth later on (recycled so I can come back and give it another go). LOL, I hate to tell you this, but if you really believe in this coming-back business, I think I may have squashed one of your (reincarnated) kinfolk yesterday out on my driveway. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 8:34 AM:

" shumphreys- "Yes Mr. Lamphier I have come farther than you it appears, and I hope that I never reach that point where I "know it all"."
--------
Ah Susan- the fact that you claim a superior position on this journey, coupled with your erroneous assumption that I believe I "know it all"- betrays your very claim that you have somehow "come farther" than myself.

I'm a just a simple man, Susan. I am, and always will be, a sinner. Left to my own devices- I am nothingness. But when I turn to Christ, I turn to the very source of my reason and being. When I turn to Christ, my imperfections have meaning, my talents have a source, and my knowledge has validity.

Because Truth, in its very essence- is not a something -it is -a Somebody. And that Somebody has a name: Jesus Christ- The Truth The Way and The Life. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 8:36 AM:

" Now when I said that I have come farther than you I wasn't being flippant. I was stating the fact that I have been able to move beyond the issue of homosexuality, concepts of "TRUE" beliefs, the "right" church, to realize that ALL the worlds religions hold part of the truth, that all their sacred texts are just that sacred, that ALL people whether they are just like me or not deserve the same rights and priveleges that I have, and that I have a responsibility to push past my inhibitions (challenging people in public forums over issues that I think are personal between you and your God or your conscience) to speak for those who won't or can't speak for themselves. Another good book I read recently is, "If Grace is True, Why God Will Save Every Person", by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. Again I don't agree with everything they say or their reasoning but I do agree about the final outcome! "

The Question wrote on Jun 26, 2008 8:53 AM:

" It's amazing what tolerance we have, for bad behavior, when it comes to our own party.
---------------
As Nietzsche said, Bird, the party man is of necessity a liar.
It's best not to be too invested in any of these politicians. I've been disappointed by Obama's willingness to give the telecom companies a pass for their criminal spying on Americans, a move that means that they will continue to spy on Americans for the government, completely without oversight, from now on.
But while Obama is flawed, McCain is a corrupt, warmongering fascist, so there's no choice. "

The Question wrote on Jun 26, 2008 9:05 AM:

" "as long as it can run in the background where people don't see it, it's like it's happening in a different world much detached from ours....and as long as that's done, we can be lied to about things such as the economy and how good we really have it. "
----------------
Here's more of whjat we're not seeing, Nine Americans have been killed in Iraq in the last week alone, and that was before this:
A suicide bomber struck Thursday inside a municipal building west of Baghdad, killing at least 15 people at a meeting of tribal sheiks opposed to al-Qaida, police said. The U.S. confirmed American casualties but gave no further details.
Another 18 people were killed and about 60 wounded in a car bombing near a government headquarters in the northern city of Mosul, officials said. The attacks Thursday were part of a spike in violence in Iraq after weeks of relative calm. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 9:58 AM:

" Tom- "We really shouldnt have doubts (like poor TQ claims to have) about whence we came."
------
On that point I have to respectfully disagree Tom. Our human condition is such, that doubt is part of our daily lives. The truth is- if our faith were really that solid, then we would never be tempted to ever commit another sin. Doubt gives sin the entry way to the soul. I do not believe however that Christ asks us to never have any doubts- but to rather- keep the faith, inspite of our doubts. I think this point is vividly displayed in Mark 9:24 when the father of the tormented boy says to our Lord- "I do believe, help my unbelief!" "

The Question wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:01 AM:

" "I'm a just a simple man, Susan. I am, and always will be, a sinner. Left to my own devices- I am nothingness. But when I turn to Christ, I turn to the very source of my reason and being."
---------------
You go ahead and play whatever games you like with your invisible men in the sky, BL. I'll keep an eye on reality for you. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:06 AM:

" First of all Mr. Andres there isn't one TRUE church or one TRUE belief there are many, until you are able to move beyond your sense of superiority you will have trouble with people like me who have moved beyond you.I think that in the Bible that self-rightousness is as great a sin as adultery, greed, sloth, etc. There isn't any humor in calling anyone a drunk Mr. Andres. I suggest you learn about reincarnation, your deeds in this world will insure your return in a higher state in the next. Those might have been your relatives you were stepping on. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:15 AM:

" Now Mr. Lamphier, you suffer from the same problem M@H and others have suffered from reading more into a statement than what was actually said. I didn't claim to be superior than you are anyone else. The road of life isn't a vertical road, it is a horizontal journey. I said I have moved beyond you. I have progressed further down the road than you. But you can still catch up and who knows you may even pass me by at some point.
Jesus Christ may be the, Truth the way and the Life for you and that is fine. I have no problem with that. Vicky and M@H are both Christians and believe it or not I even have relatives and friends that are Christians. There are a few good ones out there. BUT that doesn't mean that Jesus is the Truth the way and the Life.His is one way. There are many paths through this life, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Gnostics (like me) have chosen to follow a different path. That doesn't mean that one path is better than another, or that one path has the corner on Truth and the others don't. They are simply different paths. As I said much earlier when I was 20 I read Siddhartha, by Herman Hesse and realized that Christianity did not have or know the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." I suggest that you read Siddhartha, it might help you to understand, which is what enlightenment is all about. Jesus, I am sure, would approve. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 11:26 AM:

" To TheQuestion, sometimes I think that I end up voting for who will be the least worst. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 11:55 AM:

" TQ- "You go ahead and play whatever games you like with your invisible men in the sky, BL. I'll keep an eye on reality for you."
------
You do that TQ. And while you're at it tell me what "reality" your eye reveals to you about that invisible infinite energy that started this world rolling. But don't play games with it. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 1:25 PM:

" Mr. Lamphier you don't know that the energy that set this world in motion was INFINITE and NOT FINITE. Either way you don't know where it came from, all you have is a belief.If that belief comforts you, eases your fears, helps you become a better person, so be it. Just don't be surprised or offended that others have chosen NOT to believe what you believe and some like me have chosen a Gnostic path, a path of knowing, knowledge, not beliefs. "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 26, 2008 1:56 PM:

" Bryant, I still stand by my statement. I never doubt where I came from or who my Creator is. I guess that puts me at an advantage over some folks who can't even figure out that part of life.

The part of my life where faith is always required (to overcome those doubts you speak of) is where we are going from here. I feel sorry for folks who claim there isn't one TRUE church or one TRUE belief, there are many. This is a grave error in logic. The FACT is there is only one true way, one church. When it comes to eternal life, there is no Plan B.

It's odd that Sue, as well-read as she claims to be, hasn't figured out that, except for one, ALL religious beliefs and rituals are wrong. Almost all organized religion, whether it's the multi-schism forms of Buddhism or Hindu or Judaism or Muslim or black magic or atheist or Gnostics or Christianity, has its own political axe to grind. That political axe is usually all about control of the masses and self-perpetuation. Whatever selfish motives exist within a particular religion, the truth is, only one of them has it right. "

The Question wrote on Jun 26, 2008 2:43 PM:

" "Whatever selfish motives exist within a particular religion, the truth is, only one of them has it right. "
------
None of them have it right. If your grandpa and grandma had been Hindus, Tummy, you'd be telling anyone who'd listen that only Hinduism is "The Truth." "

The Question wrote on Jun 26, 2008 2:58 PM:

" Can the president order that people be buried alive? John Yoo won't say.
---------------
At today's congressional hearing, Chairman John Conyers had a question for Yoo, the former DOJ attorney and torture-memo author:
Conyers: Could the president order a suspect buried alive?
Yoo: Uh, Mr. Chairman, I don't think I've ever given advice that the president could order someone buried alive. . .
Conyers: I didn't ask you if you ever gave him advice. I asked you thought the president could order a suspect buried alive.
Yoo: Well Chairman, my view right now is that I don't think a president . . . no American president would ever have to order that or feel it necessary to order that.
Conyers: I think we understand the games that are being played. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 2:59 PM:

" shumphreys- "Mr. Lamphier you don't know that the energy that set this world in motion was INFINITE and NOT FINITE."
-----

Susan....dear.....work with me here. And I mean this in all sincerity:

ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED NOR DESTROYED.

Let me repeat that:

ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED NOR DESTROYED.

Now- I want you to ponder that for a while, and tell me where it leads you. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:04 PM:

" Tom- "Bryant, I still stand by my statement. I never doubt where I came from or who my Creator is."
--------
I understand what you are saying Tom-

but- if you really never doubt where you came from or who your Creator is- then why would you ever have any doubt about any aspects of your faith - ever? "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 3:36 PM:

" You are plain and simply wrong Mr. Andres and someday you will figure that out. You have created a much longer and more difficult road for yourself. Jesus main teaching was about respect for all people. Until you learn that simple truth you will never be happy or content.You will always have doubts eventhough you claim otherwise! But your words show the true state of your soul.And yes my words also show the true state of my soul, an enlightened one. "

what? wrote on Jun 26, 2008 4:26 PM:

" Gods, Creators, Infinite Energy Sources, Saviors, parables about people losing their marbles, I'm Right and your Wrong. "It's so good to be living in the USA, hamburgers sizzling on an open grill night and day". "

father bob wrote on Jun 26, 2008 5:09 PM:

" Tom Andres wrote on Jun 26, 2008 1:56 PM:I feel sorry for folks who claim there isn't one TRUE church or one TRUE belief, there are many. This is a grave error in logic. The FACT is there is only one true way, one church. When it comes to eternal life, there is no Plan B.""""

hmmmmm.....i'm agnostic so you'll have to prove that one to me einstein. i thought the whole deal was that we are all god's children... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 26, 2008 6:22 PM:

" Shumphries, you are trying to discuss a topic with two idiots. I hope you realize that. One is a pompous gasbag and the other is so stupid that he doesn't even realize when others are making a total fool out of him. Good luck in making any progress with these two morons. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:11 PM:

" Mr. Lamphier that law of physics doesn't say anything about where that source of energy came from in the first place. As I have said many times a space probe from some distant galaxy or even from our future could have hit the black hole that was universe zero and set everything in motion. OR look at the other laws of physics, entropy increases in closed systems.... Do you know how much energy is in a black hole? Do you really think that black holes just sit there forever? Or might those little molecules of energy get a bit restless jostling for space and send one flying that sets off the whole kit and kaboodle with a great big bang. The laws of physics do not offer any proof for a God either a finite one or an infinite one. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:16 PM:

" We can have great fun thinking about black holes. Now bear with me here. Have you ever canned tomatoes? I have, and I use a funnel to get them into the canning jars. You dump cooked tomatoes into the funnel, some fall through, most get stuck, all trying to push through at the same time so you grab and spoon and start jabbing and pushing and all of a sudden they burst through. Imagine blackholes sucking in everything in sight until the point of overload is reached and things go bursting out the other end in a great big bang. Could God be a black hole? No sign of intelligence there, but a whole lot of energy. I really think we should both stay away from physics. "

The Question wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:17 PM:

" And here's what we get with a "pro-business" crony-capitalist monkey man at the economic helm.
---------------
A barrage of bad news including yet another record high for oil drove stocks sharply lower Thursday, hurtling the Dow Jones industrials down nearly 360 points to their lowest level in almost two years.
The market also worried about fresh signs of trouble in the financial, high-tech and automotive industries. Negative analyst comments sent shares of General Motors Corp. stock to their lowest point in more than three decades. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 26, 2008 7:33 PM:

" One final comment, if you want to describe "God" as nothing but pure energy, i.e. the life force that flows through all living things, that is in the wind and the rain, the streams and the lakes, the rocks and the sand, the sun and the moon and the stars--no intelligence, will power, but raw undirected energy, subject to the laws of the universe I have no problem with that and that is after all the concept of God from an eastern and from many American Indian perspectives, God is the power, life force within an individual not a separate entity, i.e. patriarchal figure with a nasty temper, that intervenes when he/she feels like it in the affairs of men. God is within, not without which fits my statement that God, that male figure I mentioned above, is a figment of mans imagination. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:11 PM:

" shumphreys- "Mr. Lamphier that law of physics doesn't say anything about where that source of energy came from in the first place."
--------
BINGO!

That's my point Susan.
The universe was created from energy- BUT- where did THAT energy come from?

If it came from a space probe- WHAT ENERGY MADE THAT SPACE PROBE?

A black hole- WHAT ENERGY MADE THAT BLACK HOLE?

The universe could not have created ITSELF- it needed some sort of ENERGY to create it.

BUT- where did THAT energy come from?

Can't you see, Susan- Energy is infinite because it cannot be created nor destroyed- it can only be transformed from one form of energy to another to another to another...etc..

It is an infinite cycle-

SO WHAT STARTED THIS INFINITE CYCLE? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:18 PM:

" shumphreys- "One final comment, if you want to describe "God" as nothing but pure energy,"
------
God cannot be limited to pure energy.
God is all the energy in the universe- God is everything that we are- our essence is Gods essence. Our imagination comes from him. Our intellect comes from him. Our love comes from him. God is everything the universe is- and more. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:20 PM:

" shumphreys- "I really think we should both stay away from physics."
------
I think we should embrace physics.

Science does not destroy the concept of God- it reveals God. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:47 PM:

" Harry Potter- "Shumphries, you are trying to discuss a topic with two idiots. I hope you realize that. One is a pompous gasbag and the other is so stupid that he doesn't even realize when others are making a total fool out of him. Good luck in making any progress with these two morons."
-------

Well Harry- that was certainly no way to talk about your two bros - The Question and fatherbob.

I'm not going to sit here and listen to you berate your family like that, Mr. Potter.

I say good day to you sir! "

Rotty wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:51 PM:

" Now I know why I don't go to church.

Think I'll just stay home & pray for Wile E. Coyote. "

Tom Andres wrote on Jun 26, 2008 10:56 PM:

" Bryant, there are two separate issues here. One is simple cause and effect logic (a Prime Mover). That's where we all came from. The other issue requires faith, or belief. Even the most sound Christians or Muslims or Jews, etc, will at some point have doubts about their beliefs or the strength of their faith. It's the human condition. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:09 AM:

" Actually, Doh Doh, fb and TQ weren't the ones arguing with Susan. Still in a fog, huh? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:56 AM:

" Tom-"Bryant, there are two separate issues here. One is simple cause and effect logic (a Prime Mover). That's where we all came from. The other issue requires faith, or belief. Even the most sound Christians or Muslims or Jews, etc, will at some point have doubts about their beliefs or the strength of their faith. It's the human condition."
----------
I understand that Tom.

But my point is this: The two issues are not separate.
If you truly believe in Gods existence and that he created you- and all that that entails: his unconditional love- his mercy- his eternal salvation. etc... then you would never ever have any doubts about any aspects of your faith- ever. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:56 AM:

" Good day at 10:47 PM? Further proof that you don't know what you're talking about, Doh.

Good grief man, you can't even tell the difference between day and night, no wonder you make so little sense.

Now that the Ivy League educated lawyer, Bush, has won the war (according to you anyway), are you going to shift your focus to the religious issues on here?

So far you make about as much sense on that topic as you did trying to sell Bush's brilliant handling of the war.

It looks like shumphries is doing the same number on you that others have been doing all along, and as usual, you don't get it. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:59 AM:

" Rotty- "Think I'll just stay home & pray for Wile E. Coyote."

------
Well, if you have to pray to something............ "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 27, 2008 8:49 AM:

" Mr. Lamphier I have already said in an earlier post that you must have missed, we can go on and on forever and never get to an answer to your. The FACT is we don't know, at this point in time, what the first cause was. That doesn't mean that we will never know. That doesn't mean that it was a God of somekind. I have offered you a copy of my book, I explain in detail there my reasoning and thoughts. In brief I am more in line with Eastern philosophy and religious teachings and that of some American Indian tribes, what a descrived a bit earlier, the force of life that is within us and the plants and animals, the rocks and sand, mountains and valleys, wind and rain, God if you want to use that term is totally and completely within not without. The patriarchical figure is the figment of mans imagination. "

shumphreys wrote on Jun 27, 2008 8:52 AM:

" And Mr. Lamphier if you don't want to give me your address you can order my book, "Searching for Enlightenment, Gnosticism for a New Millennium" at Amazon.com. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 27, 2008 10:04 AM:

" Pray for Bryant L to start telling the truth, Rotty. LOL! "

The Question wrote on Jun 27, 2008 10:45 AM:

" The Dow is sinking again today after Thursday's nearly 400-point nosedive. This is what you get when you have a borrow-trillions-and-spend, crony-capitalist kleptocrat monkey man handling the nation's treasure for seven years.
But cheer up. Just think how much worse the economy would be if Bush weren't so "pro-business." LOL. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 2:02 PM:

" Hey Harry P, shhhhhhhhhhh*

Quiet down little guy...... the grown-ups are talking.

You sound a little grumpy- so be a good lad and go play in the street.....mkay?..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 2:04 PM:

" shrumphreys- "...we can go on and on forever and never get to an answer...."
-------
Fair enough Susan- fair enough. "

miltmart wrote on Jun 27, 2008 4:08 PM:

" The economy was in great shape and gas was $2 a gallon cheaper until things started to turn in early 2007. Wonder what event could have caused that to happen? Wouldn't have anything to do with a bunch of dims in Congress would it? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 27, 2008 5:41 PM:

" Miltie, please point to one piece of legislation or one action on the part of the Democrats that caused gasoline to rise at an astronomical rate. Are you really that stupid? The rise in gasoline is the result of many factors. The fall of the dollar, supply and demand and certainly corporate greed on the part of the oil companies. But, by all means let's hear your ideas as to how it's the Democrats fault. I'll be waiting. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:13 PM:

" Harry Potter "Miltie, please point to one piece of legislation or one action on the part of the Democrats that caused gasoline to rise at an astronomical rate. Are you really that stupid?"
-------

Apparently you're that stupid Harry-Dohbaugh:
-------

TOP 10 REASONS TO BLAME DEMOCRATS FOR SOARING GASOLINE PRICES

10) ANWR If Bill Clinton had signed into law the Republican Congress's 1995 bill to allow drilling of ANWR instead of vetoing it, ANWR could be producing a million barrels of (non-Opec) oil a day--5% of the nation's consumption. Although speaking in another context, even Democrat Senator Charles Schumer, no proponent of ANWR drilling, admits that "one million barrels per day," would cause the price of gasoline to fall "50 cents a gallon almost immediately," according to a recent George Will column.

9) Coastal Drilling (i.e., not in my backyard) Democrats have consistently fought efforts to drill off the U.S. coast, as evidenced by Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz's preotestation against a failed 2005 bill: "Not only does this legislation dismantle the bi-partisan ban on offshore drilling, but it provides a financial incentive for states to do so."
A financial incentive? With the Chinese now slant drilling for oil just 50 miles off the Florida coast, wouldn't that have been a good thing?

8) Insistence on alternative fuels One of the first acts of the new Democrat-controlled congress in 2007 was an energy bill that "calls for a huge increase in the use of ethanol as a motor fuel and requires new appliance efficiency standards." By focusing on alternative fuels such as ethanol, and not more drilling, Democrats have added to the cost of food, worsening starvation problems around the word and increasing inflationary pressures in the U.S., including prices at the pump.

7) Nuclear power Even the French, who sometimes seem to lack the backbone to stand up for anything other than soft cheese, faced down their environmentalists over the need for nuclear power. France now generates 79% of its electricity from nuclear plants, mitigating the need for imported oil. The French have so much cheap energy that France has become the world's largest exporter of electric power. They have plans in place to build more reactors, including an experimental fusion reactor.

The last nuclear reactor built in the United States, according to the US Dept of Energy, was the "River Bend" plant in Louisiana. Its construction began in March of 1977.

Need I say more?

6) Coal "The liquid hydrocarbon fuel available from American coal reserves exceeds the crude oil reserves of the entire world," writes Dr. Arthur Robinson in an article on humanevents.com. The U.S. has approximately one-fourth of the world's known, proven coal reserves. Coal would be a proven, and increasingly clean, source of electric power and--at current prices--a liquified fuel that would reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Yet Dems and their enviro friends have fought, and continue to fight, both coal-mining and coal plants.

5) Refinery capacity "High oil prices are still being propped up by a shortage of refinery capacity and there is little sign of the bottleneck easing until 2010," according to Peak Oil News. And, while voters in South Dakota have approved zoning for what could become the first new oil refinery in the United States in 30 years, the Dems' environmentalist constituency vows to oppose it, just like environmentalists opposed the floodgates that could have saved New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina.

4) Reduced competition With consolidation in the oil industry, has come reduced competition. Remember, most of the major oil company mergers -- Shell-Texaco, BP-Amoco, Exxon-Mobil, BP-ARCO, and Chevron-Texaco -- happened on Clinton's watch. The number of oil refiners dropped from 28 to 19 companies during Clinton's two terms.

3) The Global Warming Myth At a Group of 8 meeting this week, host and Japanese Economy, Trade and Industry Minister Akira Amari "described the issues of climate change and energy as two sides of the same coin and proposed united solutions ... to address both issues simultaneously". As a result of Global Warming hysteria, the Al Gore-negotiated Kyoto Protocol created a worldwide market in carbon-emissions trading. Both 2005 --the year that trading was initiated--and this year --when the trading expanded dramatically -- saw substantial and unexpected price spikes in the cost of oil, leading us to reason Number...

2) Speculation "Given the unchanged equilibrium in global oil supply and demand over recent months amid the explosive rise in oil futures prices ... it is more likely that as much as 60% of the today oil price is pure speculation," writes F. William Engdahl, an Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization. According to a June 2006 US Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations report, US energy futures historically "were traded exclusively on regulated exchanges within the United States... The trading of energy commodities by large firms on OTC electronic exchanges was exempted from (federal) oversight by a provision inserted at the behest of Enron and other large energy traders into the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000." The bill was signed into law by Bill Clinton, in one of his last acts in office.

1) Defeat of President Bush's 2001 energy package According to the BBC, "Key points of Bush('s 2001) plan were to:

-Promote new oil and gas drilling

-Build new nuclear plants

-Improve electricity grid and build new pipelines -$10bn in tax breaks to promote energy efficiency and alternative fuels

By William Tate "

The Question wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:29 PM:

" That's right. The oil men who took over the White House and immediately held top-secret energy meetings with corporate fat cats have nothing to do with the fact that price of oil has skyrocketed, along with oil company profits. It's all just an odd coincidence.
You right wingers can spin whatever lying claptrap Rove tells you to spin. It's obvious to most Americans what has happened, and they are going to be sending you and your little pal the war mummy a message about it in November. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:50 PM:

" As usual you missed the point, moron. Miltie said the price of gas has gone up dramatically since the democrats to over the house and the senate. I asked for proof of that and you butt in with your cut and paste right wing propaganda going all the way back to Bill Clinton. What in the heck does Bill Clinton have to do with what has happened since the Democrats took over the house and the senate? So my question should be redirected to you, Dohnut, are you that stupid? Apparently so. Not satisfied to stink up every other thread on here? So you have to answer questions not even directed to you too? "

father bob wrote on Jun 27, 2008 8:05 PM:

" Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 7:13 PM:

" Harry Potter "Miltie, please point to one piece of legislation or one action on the part of the Democrats that caused gasoline to rise at an astronomical rate. Are you really that stupid?"
-------

Apparently you're that stupid Harry-Dohbaugh:
-------

TOP 10 REASONS TO BLAME DEMOCRATS FOR SOARING GASOLINE PRICES

10) ANWR If Bill Clinton had signed into law the Republican Congress's 1995 bill to allow drilling of ANWR instead of vetoing it, ANWR could be producing a million barrels of (non-Opec) oil a day--5% of the nation's consumption. Although speaking in another context, even Democrat Senator Charles Schumer, no proponent of ANWR drilling, admits that "one million barrels per day," would cause the price of gasoline to fall "50 cents a gallon almost immediately," according to a recent George Will column.

9) Coastal Drilling (i.e., not in my backyard) Democrats have consistently fought efforts to drill off the U.S. coast, as evidenced by Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz's preotestation against a failed 2005 bill: "Not only does this legislation dismantle the bi-partisan ban on offshore drilling, but it provides a financial incentive for states to do so."
A financial incentive? With the Chinese now slant drilling for oil just 50 miles off the Florida coast, wouldn't that have been a good thing?

sorry Doh....my wife works for an oil company. the technology isn't there to extract oil from the shale .....you really need to research before you overload your a55. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 27, 2008 8:26 PM:

" War mummy? Hey, TQ, I like that one! But I guess we're going to be stuck with Bob Barr or Ralph Nader, because remember, the great sage, Tommy boy, said Obama was unelectable. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 9:01 PM:

" fatherbob- "....my wife works for an oil company. the technology isn't there to extract oil from the shale .....you really need to research before you overload your a55. "
------

Well SpeedBump Bob- it looks like your "wife" needs a new career.

Oh and- you really need to stop overloading your a55 on all that DailKos crap that you spew on here.
----------

THE END OF OIL PEAK?

"Royal Dutch Shell is patenting a technique to convert shale to petroleum at a cost of only about $30/barrel. If it works, the world's single largest source of oil would be... the United States:

Over the past few years, more and more apocalyptic stories have been popping up about a supposed phenomenon known as "peak oil." The theory is that we're running out of oil, the big powers are keeping it quiet, and as supplies dwindle, world-wide economic chaos will ensue.
This is hardly a new theory. According to the Chicken Littles of the world, we've been "about to run out of oil" for over thirty years. Obviously it hasn't happened yet. With the recent upswing in strife in the Middle East, however, the notion has gained in popularity.
The thing is, this theory is utterly false, and can be laid to rest with a single well-established fact: there is more oil in the Colorado shale fields than the entire Middle East had at its peak. The only reason we're still importing oil is that, at present, it is cheaper to do so than to extract it from shale. Until recently, getting oil out of shale has been a nasty and expensive business.
That's about to change, though, as engineers at Royal Dutch Shell (RDS.A) have applied for a patent on a new method of extracting shale oil cheaply and cleanly. (As an interesting side note, it is the largest patent application in U.S. history.)
Amazingly, this method:

*Is cleaner than conventional drilling

*Generates the highest grade of light-sweet crude oil, which burns cleaner than other varieties

*Becomes profitable with oil just north of $30 a barrel (which we've already blown past) "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 27, 2008 9:04 PM:

" Heres what ya said Mr. Pooper:

Harry Potter- "Miltie, please point to one piece of legislation or one action on the part of the Democrats that caused gasoline to rise at an astronomical rate."
--------
Sorry you missed your own point......moron...... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 28, 2008 7:15 AM:

" You can't spin your way out of this one, DohDoh.

Even someone like yourself, with such limited skills in logic, could tell that the comment was asking what have the Dems done since taking over the House and Senate, to cause the gas prices go up as they have? As usual, you took it out of context.

You can re post the question a hundred times, but it won't change its intent.

Your trying to twist the intent of my question is just another example of your intellectual dishonesty.

As has been posted on here before, you have to be the most intellectually dishonest poster on this site.

I find it interesting that you never answer any questions put to you, and have to resort to twisting things around, name calling, and if all else fails, questioning the intelligence or mental stability of your opposition.

That, and your cut and paste jobs from your right wing sites are really an impressive debate style, Doh Doh.

You're getting too predicable.

Your style is what has given you up, every time you have come back under a new name. You have always returned to your same old tactics, but I suspect you just can't help yourself.

I also suspect the only one you're impressing is yourself. Everyone else sees right through your lame attempts to hide from the truth. Well, that is with the exception of people like ed miller, who seems to be in a denial fog most of the time too.

It looks like miltie isn't going to answer the question, so I'll ask you.

Without any of your usual spin, name calling, blustering gasbag retorts etc, what have the Dems done since taking over the House and the Senate to cause the price of gasoline to raise as it has.

Think you can honestly answer that? I'm betting you can't do it.

I await your answer your answer, although I know you can't do it with out your usual blathering retorts.

This should be a good one, folks. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 28, 2008 8:26 AM:

" Considering that the dizzy Dohnut gets most of his material from right wing fascist web sites, that DailKos bit was pretty funny, huh fb?

Dizzy Dohnut, hmmm.....yeah, I like that, so I may just start using that one to describe our friend Do...oops, I mean Bryant Lamphier. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 28, 2008 8:41 AM:

" fatherbob- "....my wife works for an oil company."
------

Wellllll now! So you're those rich, eeeeeevil oil people that Question and Harry Pooper and......well- YOU, keep accusing of profiting off of Iraqi blood.
Well how about dat bob?
Looks like you're a bloody hypocrite......
Tell your fat-cat neighbors (Dick Cheney and Jed Clampett) high for me- will ya SpeedBumpBob..... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 28, 2008 9:58 AM:

" According to Brad Setser, Fellow for Geo Economics, Council on Foreign Relations, there is a very strong correlation between the fall of the US dollar under the Bush economy and the rise in crude oil costs. (hmmmm...I'll bet that outfit must be a bunch of left wingers too).

Funny that he didn't say it was all the fault of the Democrats? Perhaps he needs to log onto this site and read the wisdom of the all knowing Doh Doh.

But why should we believe him when we have our own expert on every subject under the sun including the cost of gasoline on here, who insists that it's the fault of the Democrats?

Think about it, what in the world would some expert in Geo economics know compared to our very own local guru of everything? LOL! "

The Question wrote on Jun 28, 2008 3:36 PM:

" U.S. military forces have apparently managed to kill a relative of Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in Karbala province at Janaja.
The governor of Karbala province, Uqail al-Khazali, said that the U.S. had acted unilaterally in its attack.
"The U.S. had been negotiating a Status of Forces Agreement with al-Maliki, and arguing for the US military to retain the prerogative of launching operations at will and without coordinating with the Iraqi government," Juan Cole noted. "If that provision had not already been dead, I think it is now." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 28, 2008 4:20 PM:

" Harry Potter- "Without any of your usual spin, name calling, blustering gasbag retorts etc, what have the Dems done since taking over the House and the Senate to cause the price of gasoline to raise as it has."
------

Nothing.

And that's the point Harry- instead of passing legislation to open new refineries or begin new drilling, or new mining; they instead, are more than happy to sit back and let their counter productive measures from yester-year continue to let our dependency on foreign oil bleed us dry.

BUT- they haven't been completely lazy and inactive. In fact- the only thing worse than the inaction of "The Most Ethical Congress Ever" is their action:

8) Insistence on alternative fuels One of the first acts of the new Democrat-controlled congress in 2007 was an energy bill that "calls for a huge increase in the use of ethanol as a motor fuel and requires new appliance efficiency standards." By focusing on alternative fuels such as ethanol, and not more drilling, Democrats have added to the cost of food, worsening starvation problems around the word and increasing inflationary pressures in the U.S., *INCLUDING PRICES AT THE PUMP.*

6) Coal "The liquid hydrocarbon fuel available from American coal reserves exceeds the crude oil reserves of the entire world," writes Dr. Arthur Robinson in an article on humanevents.com. The U.S. has approximately one-fourth of the world's known, proven coal reserves. Coal would be a proven, and increasingly clean, source of electric power and--at current prices--a liquified fuel that would reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Yet Dems and their enviro friends have fought, *AND CONTINUE TO FIGHT*, both coal-mining and coal plants. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 28, 2008 4:37 PM:

" Hey Harry- did you know that your bro:

fatherbob, was one of those eeeeevil filthy-rich Oil profiteers?

You know....those fatcats who are making allllll that blood money from that stolen Iraqi oil.

Did you and Question know that about your own family member?

Shocking- huh? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 28, 2008 5:04 PM:

" Harry Pooper- "I find it interesting that you never answer any questions put to you..."
-------

Now then- what were you saying again Mr. Pooper........ "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 28, 2008 5:56 PM:

" Well lets see now, if the Dems had done all that you have proposed that oil would be flowing today, right? You are hilarious, Doh Doh. How convenient for you to be able to blame it all on the Dems. Yeah, your cut and paste job really proves that the high cost of gasoline can be blamed on the Democrats all right. And the results of the dollar dropping in value daily from the poor Bush economy has nothing to do with the cost of gasoline, does it, Einstein? And to think you call someone else Goebbels. LOL! "

The Question wrote on Jun 28, 2008 7:12 PM:

" This just in from the "Taxes Are Only for You Little People" Department:
Newsweek is set to publish a highly embarrassing report on Sen. John McCain, revealing that the McCains have failed to pay taxes on their beach-front condo in La Jolla, California, for the last four years and are currently in default, The Huffington Post has learned.
Under California law, once a residential property is in default for five years, it can be sold at a tax sale to recover the unpaid taxes for the taxpayers.
The McCains own at least seven homes through a variety of trusts and corporations controlled by Cindy McCain. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 28, 2008 7:37 PM:

" And that my friends........ is the best Harry Pooper can muster when he has just been thoroughly put to shame in a debate.

......applause......applause........

....(takes a big bow)........

Thank you dohbaugh- and I'm so embarrassed for you......snicker*..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 28, 2008 8:19 PM:

" HOUSE GOP CHALLENGES PELOSI FOR GAS PRICE PLAN

The Hill Posted: Aril 22 2008

"House Republican leaders on Tuesday challenged Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) to release a plan to lower gas prices that they say Democrats touted when they were in the minority.

Two years ago this week, you stated that House Democrats had a commonsense plan to lower gas prices, the letter said. In light of the skyrocketing gasoline prices affecting working families and every sector of our struggling economy, we are writing today to respectfully request that you reveal this commonsense plan so we can begin work on responsible solutions to help ease this strain.

In a press release dated April 24, 2006, Pelosi said, Democrats have a commonsense plan to help bring down skyrocketing gas prices by cracking down on price gouging, rolling back the billions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies, tax breaks and royalty relief given to big oil and gas companies, and increasing production of alternative fuels. The letter cited policies put in place during the GOP control of Congress that the Speaker claimed had raised prices on American consumers to benefit oil companies.

The House GOP leaders letter points out that the price of gasoline has spiked $1.18 since Democrats took over in January and stands at $3.51.

Once a nightmare scenario, $4 gasoline is now a very real possibility of becoming a summer staple, the letter stated. In some cities, including San Francisco and Chicago, it is already a startling reality.

Pelosis office did not respond immediately for comment.

The political drumbeat against high gas prices in the House coincidences with that of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who has made the issue a key campaign talking point.

McCain has called for a suspension of the gas tax to help consumers get through the summer months." "

Early Bird wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:17 AM:

" Bill O of Fox news takes on the CEO's for the oil industry for their greed. How will this set with those, like Tom Andres and Bryant Lamphier, who hang onto every word any conservative pundit from Fox says? I especially have to wonder how our resident know it all, Bryant Lamphier, feels about Bill O's complaint charging those CEO's with greed.

I'll bet Bill O might find himself on Roger Ailes carpet for this one.

Blaming anyone, but the Democrats for any of the problems in our society today, borders on heresy at Fox news.

I wonder if Bill with have to follow up with a retraction or a feature proving that it's the Democrats that are at fault here.

I can't wait to see how Bryant spins this one. I'm sure he can come up with some tale, using his usual convoluted logic, proving, in his mind anyway, that Bill really didn't criticise the oil company CEO's after all, and in fact the Democrats are at fault here.

Or will Bryant use his brain for once and realize that Bill O actually did criticise the oil executives, and simply ignore the topic? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 29, 2008 9:51 AM:

" Gee- I wonder if Early Bird can prove that Bill O's assessments somehow negate the actions and inactions of the Democrat controlled (Most Ethical Congress Ever)

And I wonder if Early Bird can tell me what happened to Harry Potter in this debate....? "

The Question wrote on Jun 29, 2008 11:30 AM:

" CNN just had a breathless report about the efforts of Ken Starr, eternal friend of freedom, to draft a law that would permit photographers to be banned from Malibu beaches. Apparently it wasn't enough that a bunch of thugs beat up photographers who were taking pictures of Matthew McNobody.
CNN made a vague, passing reference to some silly thing called "the First Amendment," but apparently it's some technicality that should never stand in the way of our protecting American's treasured celebrities from the slightest possibility of inconvenience.
Meanwhile, on Faux News, Meme Roth pointed out what a good thing high gas prices are, because they will mean that working class families will no longer be able to afford cable TV and internet, and so the children in those families will be forced to go outside and play instead. High gas prices fight obesity!
Celebrity victims, boo hoo. Poor people with too much money on their hands. Gee, I wonder what economic class controls the corporations that control the broadcast news channels? "

The Question wrote on Jun 29, 2008 11:37 AM:

" More "good Bush progress" in old surgy-wurgy Iraq:
---------------
A leading Iraqi judge has been ambushed and shot dead by gunmen in Baghdad.
Kamil al-Showaili, head of one of the capital's two appeals courts, was driving home in the east of the city when the attack happened.
Police said masked assailants used two vehicles to block the judge's path, before opening fire and driving away.
Mr Showaili, who was in his 50s, was one of the country's most important judges, charged with handing criminal cases for eastern Baghdad. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 29, 2008 4:14 PM:

" I'm still here Doh Doh, waiting for you to prove my allegations about Prescott wrong. Can't do it can you? hee hee, poor Doh loses again..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:03 PM:

" On the contrary Dohbaugh- I'm waiting for you to prove that Prescott Bush was make money off of concentration camps- I want you to cite sources- with details- I'll be waiting, screwy......... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:41 PM:

" No no Doh, it's up to you to prove that I'm lying but you can't can you? So keep hiding. If I'm lying, it should be easy for someone with your great talents to prove, hee hee.

The great Doh is stumped!

I can almost see Doh seething over his inability to disprove my claims.

About time for you to resort to questioning my sanity, isn't it? LOL!

Goggle: Prescott Bushes Nazi connections, and decide who's lying about Prescott's Nazi connection. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 12:26 AM:

" Yeah- Google Prescott Bush's Nazi connections

And what you'll find is a collection of tinfoil-hat left-wing wacko sources.

And you'll also find that the main author of this convoluted left-tard propaganda admitted that the main stream media wasn't buying this tripe:

"Still Not Interested

Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, have repeatedly declined to investigate the story when information regarding discovery of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday, August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff, famous for his reporting of big scoops during the Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice to accept an exclusive story based on the documents from the archives."
--------

But hey-

I'm obviously a more skilled fact finder than you dohbaugh-

But still-

Why don't you give us all the details Harry. Go ahead Dohbaugh tell us all about this author.......... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 12:43 AM:

" Over on another thread ole Harry Dohbaugh said this:

"Sorry Doh, but there were just too many supporting links to quote. You do know how to access Google, don't you?"
------

Too many links?

If they all say the same thing- then quote any of them.....one of them.

Ah- but here's the thing- ole Dohbaugh is too embarrassed to actually source these conspiratorial left-tard wacko sites, because he knows that not even the mainstream media takes these crackpots seriously.....just like sane people know not to take him seriously........what a nutcake........and a liar to boot.... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 12:48 AM:

" Dohbaugh- "About time for you to resort to questioning my sanity, isn't it?"
-------
Resort to questioning your sanity?

I've never stopped questioning your sanity- or your veracity. "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:09 AM:

" John McCain doesn't know how to use a computer. John McCain doesn't know when he last pumped gas or what it cost. John McCain owns seven homes and forgot to pay taxes on one of them for the past four years. But at least he's not an elitist like Barack Obama. He earned his money the old-fashioned way - marrying an heiress.
- Matt Ygelias. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:33 AM:

" Definition of a tin-foil hat wacko site: any site that Doh Doh disagrees with.

I guess you're still saying old Prescott NEVER had any involvement with the German Nazi's huh?

Even Fox news affirmed this, and we all know how truthful they are.

Better be careful, you might upset Tom A.

You still haven't answered the question, so I guess that would make you the coward.

Liar? I'm not the one stealing my lines from other blog sites...uh...well...now who's the liar?

Don't bother to deny it, because I will sick Tommy A on the case.

Did you enjoy my Prescott Bush medal story? hee hee "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:49 AM:

" The Question- "John McCain doesn't know how to use a computer."

-------

And apparently- neither does Harry Dohbaugh.

Google that Doughy. "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 9:10 AM:

" You can see the fascist Sen. Prescott Bush speak on television here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grd78DiJc0Q "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 9:15 AM:

" And here is a BBC radio program about Prescott Bush's involvement in a 1933 fascist plot to overthrow or assassinate President Roosevelt:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 11:48 AM:

" Keep dreaming, BL. But there's an east wind coming all the same. Such a wind as never blew on the Republican Party yet. It will be cold and bitter, BL, and a good many of you right-wingers may wither before its blast. But it's truth's own wind none the less. And a greener, better, stronger land will be in the sunshine when the wind is cleared.
----------------------- "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 30, 2008 2:08 PM:

" Hey TQ, I was saving that one. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 2:59 PM:

" The Question- "And here is a BBC radio program about Prescott Bush's involvement in a 1933 fascist plot to overthrow or assassinate President Roosevelt:"
-----
LOL!

Oh brother....you're really over playing your hand here TQ.....or should I say Harry Potter..LOL!

Wow....ain't it amazing that you and Harry Dohbaugh seem to be sharing the same one-celled brain.....AMAZING..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 3:09 PM:

" Harry Potter- "Even Fox news affirmed this, and we all know how truthful they are."
--------

Well I'm glad you brought that up dohbaugh-

From FoxNews:

"Prescott Bush (search) was one of seven directors of Union Banking Corp. (search), a New York investment bank owned by a bank controlled by the Thyssen family, according to recently declassified National Archives documents reviewed by The Associated Press.

Fritz Thyssen (search) was an early financial supporter of Hitler, whose Nazi party Thyssen believed was preferable to communism. *THE DOCUMENTS DO NOT SHOW ANY EVIDENCE BUSH DIRECTLY AIDED THAT EFFORT.* His position with Union Banking never was a political issue for Bush, who was elected to the Senate from Connecticut in 1952.

The 4,000 Union Banking shares owned by the Dutch bank were registered in the names of the seven U.S. directors, according a document signed by Homer Jones, chief of the division of investigation and research of the Office of Alien Property Custodian, a World War II-era agency that no longer exists.

E. Roland Harriman, the bank chairman and brother of former New York Gov. W. Averell Harriman (search), HELD 3,991 SHARES. *BUSH HAD ONE SHARE.*"

-----------
Ooooooooooooooo.....conspiracy.........

ONE SHARE OUT OF 3,991!!!.......how evil..........

Now we know why the mainstream media took a pass on this tinfoil-hat nonsense........wackos........ "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 3:12 PM:

" The Harry Question- "Keep dreaming, BL. But there's an east wind coming all the same. Such a wind as never blew on the Republican Party yet. It will be cold and bitter, BL, and a good many of you right-wingers may wither before its blast. But it's truth's own wind none the less. And a greener, better, stronger land will be in the sunshine when the wind is cleared."
------

Oh I think there's a HOT WIND blowing in here- and it smells like Harry Question Pooper!......LOL...... "

father bob wrote on Jun 30, 2008 4:02 PM:

" how true:

The President may speak of the nation in idealistic terms, but his actions demonstrate that he has no real concept of national community. His America, like that of his sponsors, is a population to be manipulated for the power to be had, for the money to be made. He is the subject of jokes and he jokes himself about his clumsiness with words, but his mispronunciations and malapropisms suggest a mind of half-learned language that is eerily compatible with his indifference to truth, his disdain for knowledge as a foundation of a democratic society.

It will take more than revelations of an inveterately corrupt Administration to dissolve the miasma of otherworldly weirdness hanging over this land, to recover us from our spiritual disarray, to regain our once-clear national sense of ourselves, however illusory, as the last best hope of mankind. What are we become in the hands of this President, with his relentless subversion of our right to know; his unfounded phantasmal justifications for going to war; his signing away of laws passed by a Congress that he doesn't like; his unlawful secret surveillance of citizens' phone records and e-mail; his dicta time and time again in presumption of total executive supremacy over the other two branches of government; his insensitivity to the principle of separation of church and state; his obsessive secrecy; his covert policies of torture and extraordinary rendition, where the courtroom testimony of the tortured on the torture they've endured at our hands is disallowed on the grounds that our torture techniques are classified; his embargoing of past presidential papers, and impeding access to documents of investigatory bodies; his use of the Justice Department to bring indictments or quash them as his party's electoral interests demand.... Knowledge sealed, skewed, sequestered, shouted down, the bearers of knowledge fired or smeared, knowledge edited, sneered at, shredded and, as in the case of the coffins of our dead military brought home at night, no photography allowed, knowledge spirited away in the dark.

Now, I realize that with these remarks I may be violating the linguistic proprieties of an academic convocation. I realize, in the tenor of these times, that anyone who speaks of the broad front of failure and mendacity and carelessness of human life in so much of our public policy, in terms any louder than muted regret, is usually marginalized as some sort of radical--that is, as someone so "out of the mainstream" as not to be taken seriously. But I believe what I have described so far is an accurate and informed account of the present state of the Union. "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jun 30, 2008 4:21 PM:

" McCain got his money from marrying a wealthy heiress.

Kerry got his money from marrying a wealthy hieress.

Obama got HIS money from NOT marrying a wealthy hieress.

Who cares where they got their money? They got it!

This without a doubt proves that money cannot buy leadership! "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jun 30, 2008 4:23 PM:

" Prescott Bush died over 35 years ago! What the heck does he have to do with ANYTHING? "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 4:47 PM:

" " Prescott Bush died over 35 years ago! What the heck does he have to do with ANYTHING? "
------
It demonstrates that fascism has real roots in the Bush family, and that the Bush family business has always been the betrayal of public trusts for private power and gain. "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 4:49 PM:

" That was a paraphrased quotation from Arthur Conan Doyle, BL. Maybe you should devote some of your right-wing ranting time to catching up on literature. "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 4:55 PM:

" You failed to mention that Prescott Bush was a DIRECTOR of the pro-Nazi bank UBC, didn't you, BL? You know, the one seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 5:40 PM:

" Presidential Candidate- "Prescott Bush died over 35 years ago! What the heck does he have to do with ANYTHING?:"
---------
It demonstrates that the same person posting as The Question, Harry Potter, and fatherbob, is a complete loon.

But no wait- I'm sure that's just a coincidence.....and uhm....the fact that "all three of them" will now embrace the "Prescott Bush's involvement in a 1933 fascist plot to overthrow or assassinate President Roosevelt".....will be another....pure coincidence.......

that is, unless of course- "one" of them, would like to separate himself from that additional wack-tard conspiracy......

but I'mmmmmmmmm..... bettin they won't- let's find out, shall we........ "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 5:48 PM:

" Question- "That was a paraphrased quotation from Arthur Conan Doyle, BL. Maybe you should devote some of your right-wing ranting time to catching up on literature."
-------
Maybe you should devote some of your left-wing fiction ranting, TQ, to catching up on some actual political realities and maybe some facts.

But hey- you gotta feed that paranoia don't cha.........wacky..... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 30, 2008 5:49 PM:

" Hey, we're making progress, at least Dizzy Doh Doh isn't completely denying Prescott's involvement now. LOL! And about that government take over to thwart the New Deal idea from the right wing radicals like Prescott, I was sort of saving that one. That's OK though, because I have tons of additional stuff about the Bush family for Doh to go all rabid over and deny. LOL! "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 5:52 PM:

" The fascist "Business Plot" to overthrow FDR is pretty famous, BL. The corporate fascists planned to organize the Bonus Marchers who had demanded their unpaid WWI bonuses during the Depression, but their scheme was thwarted by the loyal Gen. Smedley Butler, a real American hero.
I'm sorry that your unfamiliarity with American history hampers you in these matters, BL. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 5:58 PM:

" Question- " You failed to mention that Prescott Bush was a DIRECTOR of the pro-Nazi bank UBC, didn't you, BL?"
--------
Uhm....no..TQ...in fact I DID cite it in the FoxNews piece:

"Prescott Bush (search) WAS ONE OF SEVEN DIRECTORS of Union Banking Corp."

Oooooooooooo ONE OF SEVEN DIRECTORS Oooooooooo PRESCOTT OWNED ONE SHARE OUT OF 3,991!!! Oooooooooooo......how eeeeeeevilllll........
---------

Thanks for paying attention. Don't you ever get embarrassed, TQ?....or are you too insane to realize shame? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:02 PM:

" Prediction: Watch for Doh and his multi name posting habit to emerge soon. I'm betting we see some support coming for him soon, as well as some kudos talking about how brilliant he is and how he's kicking butt on here. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:04 PM:

" Hey TQ, do you think we should tell the village idiot how much money Prescott made for his efforts? LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:08 PM:

" And look at this:

Harry Potter- "Hey, we're making progress, at least Dizzy Doh Doh isn't completely denying Prescott's involvement now. LOL! And about that government take over to thwart the New Deal idea from the right wing radicals like Prescott,"
-----

Just as predicted- two birdbrains of a wack-tard feather....oh, and they just happen to be posting at the same moment this evening.....yeah....pure coincidence......LOL.....(giant eyeroll)........ "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:16 PM:

" " Hey TQ, do you think we should tell the village idiot how much money Prescott made for his efforts? LOL! "
--------
Please do, Harry. Because, oddly enough, even though I am you, I don't know. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:20 PM:

" The Question- "The fascist "Business Plot" to overthrow FDR is pretty famous, BL."
-------
Oh yeah- and when you google it the references that come up are dozens and dozens of left-tard wacko-web sites that all refer back to each other and to the wacko BBC piece.

But why am I surprised- really.

This is all just part and parcel for everything that you spew on here on a daily basis.

Everything you regurgitate is straight from these far-left loon-sites.......that would explain why you are so wrong so often.

But now, TQ- don't you go a lettin' a little lack of credibility go a hurtin' you none! You just keep right on goosesteppin' that propaganda right on out there.....ya hear..... "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:22 PM:

" So, Doh, you admit that Prescott Bush was a DIRECTOR of a pro-Nazi bank, but think he DIDN'T KNOW it was pro-Nazi? Hilarious. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:24 PM:

" Harry Potter- " Prediction: Watch for Doh and his multi name posting habit to emerge soon. I'm betting we see some support coming for him soon, as well as some kudos talking about how brilliant he is and how he's kicking butt on here."
--------
Observation: That's exactly what Harry Potter/ The Question, is doing right now.......... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:30 PM:

" Just when I figured out who I was, old Doh Doh come along and throws a monkey wrench into the equation. Am I fb or am I TQ, this whole thing is getting rather confusing to me. As long as I'm not the sniveling lying weasel, Doh, anyone else would be OK.

For TQ, I'll have to go back and look, but I seem to recall the US government compensating him for his losses after they confiscated his assets for his dealing with the Nazis.

I'll report back, after I find out who I am. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:31 PM:

" Harry Potter- " Hey, we're making progress, at least Dizzy Doh Doh isn't completely denying Prescott's involvement now."
-----
The Question- " So, Doh, you admit that Prescott Bush was a DIRECTOR of a pro-Nazi bank, but think he DIDN'T KNOW it was pro-Nazi? Hilarious."
-----
Gee....you certainly sound like two completely different people......

And no- Prescott Bush was one of seven directors and held one share out of 3,991- hardly "Pro-Nazi".

In fact Thyssen had denounced Hitler by 1939 and had already fled Germany.

Ooooooooo that's so PRO NAZI ooooooooo "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:39 PM:

" Prescott Bush was a 1924 FOUNDING OFFICER and VICE PRESIDENT of the pro-Nazi UBC bank, wasn't he, Doh? And on Oct. 20, 1942, under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the United States seized UBC's assets, didn't it, Doh? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:44 PM:

" Question- "So, Doh, you admit that Prescott Bush was a DIRECTOR of a pro-Nazi bank, but think he DIDN'T KNOW it was pro-Nazi? Hilarious."
------
Golly Question when you put it like that- it kinda reminds me of a politician sitting in a RACIST CHURCH for twenty years who claims he DIDN'T KNOW the church was racist. Hey- that IS kinda funny......tee hee hee "

The Question wrote on Jun 30, 2008 6:46 PM:

" "This was the mechanism by which Hitler was funded to come to power, this was the mechanism by which the Third Reich's defense industry was re-armed, this was the mechanism by which Nazi profits were repatriated back to the American owners, this was the mechanism by which investigations into the financial laundering of the Third Reich were blunted," said Fox News commentator and former prosecutor John Loftus, who is vice chairman of the Holocaust Museum in St Petersburg.
"The Union Banking Corporation was a holding company for the Nazis, for Fritz Thyssen," said Loftus. "At various times, the Bush family has tried to spin it, saying they were owned by a Dutch bank and it wasn't until the Nazis took over Holland that they realised that now the Nazis controlled the apparent company and that is why the Bush supporters claim when the war was over they got their money back. Both the American treasury investigations and the intelligence investigations in Europe completely bely that, it's absolute horse****. They always knew who the ultimate beneficiaries were."
"There is no one left alive who could be prosecuted but they did get away with it," said Loftus. "As a former federal prosecutor, I would make a case for Prescott Bush, his father-in-law (George Walker) and Averill Harriman [to be prosecuted] for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They remained on the boards of these companies knowing that they were of financial benefit to the nation of Germany."
Loftus said Prescott Bush must have been aware of what was happening in Germany at the time. "My take on him was that he was a not terribly successful in-law who did what Herbert Walker told him to. Walker and Harriman were the two evil geniuses, they didn't care about the Nazis any more than they cared about their investments with the Bolsheviks." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:11 PM:

" The Gaurdian:

"In 1924, his father-in-law, a well-known St Louis investment banker, helped set him up in business in New York with Averill Harriman, the wealthy son of railroad magnate E H Harriman in New York, who had gone into banking.

One of the first jobs Walker gave Bush was to manage UBC. Bush was a founding member of the bank and the incorporation documents, which list him as one of seven directors, show he owned one share in UBC worth $125.

The bank was set up by Harriman and Bush's father-in-law to provide a US bank for the Thyssens, Germany's most powerful industrial family.

August Thyssen, the founder of the dynasty had been a major contributor to Germany's first world war effort and in the 1920s, he and his sons Fritz and Heinrich established a network of overseas banks and companies so their assets and money could be whisked offshore if threatened again.

By the time Fritz Thyssen inherited the business empire in 1926, Germany's economic recovery was faltering. After hearing Adolf Hitler speak, Thyssen became mesmerised by the young firebrand. *HE JOINED THE NAZI PARTY IN DECEMBER 1931* and admits backing Hitler in his autobiography, I Paid Hitler, when the National Socialists were still a radical fringe party. He stepped in several times to bail out the struggling party: in 1928 Thyssen had bought the Barlow Palace on Briennerstrasse, in Munich, which Hitler converted into the Brown House, the headquarters of the Nazi party. The money came from another Thyssen overseas institution, the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvarrt in Rotterdam.

By the late 1930s, Brown Brothers Harriman, which claimed to be the world's largest private investment bank, and UBC had bought and shipped millions of dollars of gold, fuel, steel, coal and US treasury bonds to Germany, both feeding and financing Hitler's build-up to war.

........

Erwin May, a treasury attache and officer for the department of investigation in the APC, was assigned to look into UBC's business. The first fact to emerge was that Roland Harriman, Prescott Bush and the other directors didn't actually own their shares in UBC but merely held them on behalf of Bank voor Handel. Strangely, no one seemed to know who owned the Rotterdam-based bank, including UBC's president.

May wrote in his report of August 16 1941: "Union Banking Corporation, incorporated August 4 1924, is wholly owned by the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V of Rotterdam, the Netherlands. My investigation has produced no evidence as to the ownership of the Dutch bank. Mr Cornelis [sic] Lievense, president of UBC, claims no knowledge as to the ownership of the Bank voor Handel but believes it possible that Baron Heinrich Thyssen, brother of Fritz Thyssen, may own a substantial interest."

MAY CLEARED THE BANK OF HOLDING A GOLDEN NEST EGG FOR THE NAZI LEADERSD but went on to describe a network of companies spreading out from UBC across Europe, America and Canada, and how money from voor Handel travelled to these companies through UBC.

.........

The most tantalising part of the story remains shrouded in mystery: THE CONNECTION, IF ANY, between Prescott Bush, Thyssen, Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC) and Auschwitz." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:17 PM:

" And then there is THIS on the nut-job that got this whole ball rolling:

" Last year, Buchanan published his findings in the venerable but small-circulation New Hampshire Gazette under the headline "Documents in National Archives Prove George Bush's Grandfather Traded With the Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor". He expands on this in his book to be published next month - Fixing America: Breaking the Stranglehold of Corporate Rule, Big Media and the Religious Right.

In the article, Buchanan, who has worked mainly in the trade and music press with a spell as a muckraking reporter in Miami, claimed that "the essential facts have appeared on the internet and in relatively obscure books but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes".

Buchanan suffers from hypermania, a form of manic depression, and when he found himself rebuffed in his initial efforts to interest the media, he responded with a series of threats against the journalists and media outlets that had spurned him. The threats, contained in e-mails, suggested that he would expose the journalists as "traitors to the truth".

Unsurprisingly, he soon had difficulty getting his calls returned. Most seriously, he faced aggravated stalking charges in Miami, in connection with a man with whom he had fallen out over the best way to publicise his findings. The charges were dropped last month."
----------
Gee it sounds just like The Question! LOL!

Hey TQ, are you John Buchanan? LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:34 PM:

" And again- the nut-job who started this Loony-tard insanity (John Buchanan) said this:

"Still Not Interested

Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, have repeatedly declined to investigate the story when information regarding discovery of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday, August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff, famous for his reporting of big scoops during the Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice to accept an exclusive story based on the documents from the archives."

------

So then- the mainstream media took a look at all this documentation and found......(drumroll).............

NO STORY! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jun 30, 2008 7:59 PM:

" Up against the ropes, Doh Doh attempts to cut and paste his way out yet another fib. LOL! It appears that old Dohski is changing strategies about every hour or so. Just throwing it out there and hoping something sticks, Doh? I'll let TQ humiliate you some more on this topic, as I have to get ready for one of my exciting presidential quizzes. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 9:11 PM:

" Admit it- Dohbaugh, you don't even understand the whole convaluted story yourself....do you.......no....no you don't.....and the media had no interest in this non-story did they....no..no they didn't....and the author of this non-conspiracy is a complete delusional nut just like you....isn't he....why yes....yes he is..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jun 30, 2008 10:07 PM:

" And here's the relevance of the entire Guardian article:

"There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, MUCH OF IT INACCURATE AND UNFAIR. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power."

And why was Prescott still associated with The UBC after the war started?

From The New York Herald Tribune, Evening Edition, July 31, 1941:

"several members of Brown Brothers Harriman served on the board of the UBC, including Prescott Bush. As a Dutch-owned company, the U.S. assets of the UBC were frozen by the United States Government on May 10, 1940 when Germany invaded the Netherlands. However, AT THE ADVICE OF WILLIAM R. WHITE, NEW YORK SUPERINTENDENT OF BANKS, THE HARRIMAN DIRECTORS OF UBC (THAT INCLUDES PRESCOTT BUSH) WERE TO REMAIN IN CONTROL OF THE UBC UNTIL THE ENTIRE CORPORATION WAS FORMALLY SEIZED BY THE GOVERNMENT IN 1942." "

Early Bird wrote on Jul 1, 2008 5:37 AM:

" It looks like Harry P and The Question made a little progress with Bryan L last night. His absolute denial seems to be wavering a bit. I suppose by saying that, Bryant will accuse me of being them too. LOL! I checked out some Harry's sites and it looks like our friend Bryant did too. It appears that some of his cut and paste jobs came from the sites Harry recommended. Imagine that.

Who would have ever thought Bryant L would cut and paste anything recommended by Harry Potter?

It seems that both of them have a point. While it looks like some of the charges against Bush on here are exaggerated, it also looks like trying to deny that Bush worked with the Nazis is not very realistic either.

It looks like the exaggeration is coming from both sides on this argument. "

The Question wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:53 AM:

" Here's the evidence the Bush administration used to imprison people forever without rights and torture them - nothing!
---------------
In the first case to review the government's secret evidence for holding a detainee at Guantnamo Bay, Cuba, a federal appeals court found that accusations against a Muslim from western China held for more than six years were based on bare and unverifiable claims. The unclassified parts of the decision were released on Monday.
With some derision for the Bush administration's arguments, a three-judge panel said the government contended that its accusations against the detainee should be accepted as true because they had been repeated in at least three secret documents.
The court compared that to the absurd declaration of a character in the Lewis Carroll poem "The Hunting of the Snark": "I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true."
"This comes perilously close to suggesting that whatever the government says must be treated as true," said the panel of the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 7:53 AM:

" Hey TQ, you don't suppose the old fanny smacker, Bryant L is a plant from the Bush administration do you? I'll bet they send their less talented propaganda operatives out to the smaller web sites to hone their skills. Maybe he is practicing for a job with McCain. If he starts getting into geriatric issues, and pushing pro beer ideas, we'll know for sure.

He must be amassing quite a lot of files on here. Maybe Tommy is helping him with this. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:35 AM:

" Early Bird- " it also looks like trying to deny that Bush worked with the Nazis is not very realistic either."
------
Sorry EB, Prescott never "worked" with the Nazi's.

He was simply one of seven directors of Union Banking Corp- which in turn was owned by a Dutch bank, Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaardt N.V.- which in turn was controlled by the Thyssen family. Now, it was this Dutch bank which was "closely affiliated" with the German conglomerate United Steel Works, and it was Fritz Thyssen who was an early financial supporter of Hitler and who later broke with the Nazis in 1938 and who subsequently fled to Switzerland only to be arrested by the Nazis and then ended up spending 1941 to 1945 in a Nazi prison.

BUT- The let's go back: Union Banking Corp was originally formed by Fritz Thyssen with the assistance of W. A. Harriman (A NOTED DEMOCRAT POLITICIAN AND LATER GOV. OF NY WHO SERVED FDR AS SPECIAL ENVOY TO EUROPE DURING WWII). And the executive board of UBC consisted of trusted partners of Harriman and Fritz Thyssen.

Now then- Harriman Bank was the main Wall Street connection for German companies and the varied U.S. financial interests of Fritz Thyssen.

Interestingly enough- it was Harriman's brother (E. Roland Harriman) who was the bank chairman of Union Banking Corp AND it was E. Roland Harriman who held 3,991 shares to Bush's 1.

Whew! Did everybody follow all that?

I didn't think so.

So what does this all mean?

That Prescott had an indirect association on paper with Fritz Thyssen who was a former Nazi sympathizer and who was invested in German companies that were later controlled by the Nazis when they took power in 1933.

So what does all that mean about Prescott Bush's association with the Nazi Party-

well.....nothing!

And that's exactly why the mainstream media took a big pass on this entire wack-tard non-conspiracy in the first place. "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:36 AM:

" Okay . . . I'll give you that it indicates (not proves) Bush has ties to undesirables. I have ancestors who were horse theives. I have ancestors who were moonshiners.

I've never stolen a horse and I never will. I've never shined a moon either, although I DID shoot one in high school.

Bush's ancestors were undesirable folk. BFD. That has nothing to do with today. "

The Question wrote on Jul 1, 2008 9:55 AM:

" The acorn doesn't fall far from the fascist tree. Grandpa was a fascist, daddy is a fascist and little monkey boy junior is a fascist, too. Being stupid, he's just more obvious at it than the others. "

The Question wrote on Jul 1, 2008 9:57 AM:

" Laurence Britt's 14 Elements of a Fascist State: No. 8 - Religion and the ruling elite tied together.
George W. Bush used coded religious language in his speeches ("wonder-working power", "an angel rides the whirlwind," and so forth) to sell his preemptive war against a country that never attacked or threatened the U.S. He called his Mideast invasions "crusades" before someone wised up enough to shut him up. He created "faith-based initiatives" as a way to evade the Constitution in order to grease church leaders with political bribes. His surrogates routinely accused his political opponents of godlessness. He told Amish farmers that God speaks through him.
Many Americans voted for Bush solely because they are gullible enough to think that anyone who mentions Jesus every 15 minutes is "moral" by definition, even if, at the same time, he happens to be preemptively invading countries, torturing hundreds of people and murdering thousands of others.
Bush, the most strenuously proclaimed Christian president in modern history, used the Christian religion to bring this nation to the brink of ruin, and thats something Christians have to answer for. Christian dogma was employed as a fascist tool. Serious Christians are going to have to do some soul-searching about why that was so easy to do. "

The Question wrote on Jul 1, 2008 9:58 AM:

" From Laurence Britt's 14 Elements of a Fascist State:
No. 6 - A controlled or manipulated mass media.
Bush and the Republicans have waged a long campaign against journalism denouncing it, infiltrating it, faking it, extorting it, distorting it, planting prostitutes in it and telling every manner of lie about it.
Spring-boarding off right-wing radio ranting, in 1996 a propaganda TV news channel, Fox News, became the Pravda of the Bush White House.
Even Bush Press Secretary Scott McClellan admitted that corporate media reporters had willingly rolled over for the Bush lies that caused war.
The rescue of Private Jessica, the enemy attack slaying of Pat Tillman, the fall of Saddams statue, the WDMs all were lies planted in the news by the Bush administration.
To fake news, they added fake journalists. They bribed columnists. Local TV stations aired propaganda generated by Bush PR hacks that the stations pretended had been prepared by real reporters.
The $200-an-hour male prostitute named Jeff Gannon, a/k/a James Guckert, was able to get daily access to the White House press briefings for two years while working for a hack right-wing news service.
You couldn't find a more revealing measure of the state of the dominant media today than the continuing ubiquitous presence - on the air and in print - of the very pundits and experts, self-selected message multipliers of a disastrous foreign policy, who got it all wrong in the first place, Bill Moyers said. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 12:18 PM:

" Here's the irony that's completely lost on the Left-wing mental midgets like Harry Potter:

It was Fritz Thyssen and W.A. Harriman & Co who started Union Banking Corporation.

Prescott Bush was an employee of W.A. Harriman & Co

W.A. Harriman & Co was owned by William Averell Harriman a DEMOCRAT who served President Franklin D. Roosevelt as special envoy to Europe during WWII.

Did you get that Harry?

The guy who hired Prescott Bush- the guy who joined Fritz Thyssen to started Union Banking Corporation- the guy whose brother owned 3,991 shares of UBC to Bush's 1-

Was DEMOCRAT William Averell Harriman who served as President Franklin D. Roosevelt special envoy to Europe during WWII-

Did you get that Harry?

And ole DEMOCRAT William Averell Harriman later became DEMOCRAT Governor of New York.

Now there is a DIRECT CONNECTION TO FRITZ THYSSEN (THE FORMER NAZI SYMPATHIZER)-

Where is your conspiracy theory on that, Harry?

Or was I going to fast for you? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 3:44 PM:

" "The acorn doesn't fall far from the fascist tree. Grandpa was a fascist, daddy is a fascist and little monkey boy junior is a fascist, too. Being stupid, he's just more obvious at it than the others."
-------
And who would know better than you, Herr Goebbels- Minister of Libtard Propaganda. "

The Question wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:30 PM:

" Let's put it this way. As long as we've got a Bush in office, if someone asks you who won World War II, don't be too quick to answer. "

father bob wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:35 PM:

" An Israeli doctor says, "Medicine in my country is so advanced that we can take a kidney out of one man, put it in another, and have him looking for work in six weeks."

A German doctor says, "That is nothing, we can take a lung out of one person, put it in another, and have him looking for work in four weeks.

A Russian doctor says, "In my country, medicine is so advanced that we can take half a heart out of one person, put it in another, and have them both looking for work in two weeks."

The Texas doctor, not to be outdone, says, "You guys are way behind, we recently took a man with no brains out of Texas, put him in the White House for eight years, and now half the country is looking for work."

i just couldn't help myself..... "

father bob wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:38 PM:

" ya gotta love it!

Paul Begala wants to apologize for a recent email he sent to Democratic donors in which he called Republican fundraisers "fat-cats", "wimpy, whiny wussies", and "dirtbags."

"I think it was wrong for me to call those fat cat lobbyists dirtbags," said the longtime Clinton confidante. "It is an insult to bags for dirt around the world." "

The Question wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:45 PM:

" And here's your progress report on the McBush Forever War:
---------------
Police in Iraq say at least one person has been killed in a truck bomb attack on the home of a Sunni tribal leader known for opposing al-Qaeda extremists.
The attack in al-Qaiyara, south of Mosul, left about 20 people injured, including the presumed target, Sheikh Abdul Razaq al-Waqaa.
Several houses were destroyed in the powerful blast.
In other violence blamed on Sunni militants, at least six were killed in the eastern province of Diyala.
The dead included a member of a US-backed Sunni militia who was manning a checkpoint. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:55 PM:

" If we get an Obama in office, we'll never be able to win another war. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 5:02 PM:

" The Question- "Police in Iraq say at least one person has been killed in a truck bomb attack on the home of a Sunni tribal leader known for opposing al-Qaeda extremists."
--------
What? Iraqi police? Sunni tribal opposing al-Qaeda? US-backed Sunni militia manning a checkpoint?

I thought you said things weren't improving, TQ...... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 5:14 PM:

" If we had had anyone but Bush in office we might have concentrated on Afghanistan, captured OBL, finished the job and not strayed over into Iraq for a strutting, sissified, draft dodging little Yale cheerleaders ego to prove he could out daddy his daddy. Bush's macho-boy talk has certainly fooled a lot of people, especially his fans like the ignorant and gullible Doh Doh, who have bought into his claim that the war in Iraq is a war on terror. "

father bob wrote on Jul 1, 2008 5:16 PM:

" Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 4:55 PM:
" If we get an Obama in office, we'll never be able to win another war. "

we haven't since WWII....republicans have sure had their opportunities, but it's better for big business to drag things along, so they don't try. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 5:24 PM:

" What? Looks like he's putting his Doh hat back on and going to start preaching about how great everything in Iraq is going. Do you think the surge cheer leading non-stop cackling can be far behind? LOL! Maybe he's trying to take the focus off of the Nazi supporter, Prescott, and back onto the brilliant war strategist, Jr Bush? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 5:57 PM:

" fatherbob- "we haven't since WWII....republicans have sure had their opportunities, but it's better for big business to drag things along, so they don't try."
-------
Oh you mean like that little Vietnam thingy that JFK escalated, and that LBJ dismally tried to micro-manage, bob? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:00 PM:

" Dohbaugh- "who have bought into his claim that the war in Iraq is a war on terror."
-------
Are those imaginary Al Qaeda fighters that TQ's Sunni tribal leaders were opposing, donutball? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:07 PM:

" Dohbaugh- "Maybe he's trying to take the focus off of the Nazi supporter, Prescott,"
------
Now why would I want to take the focus off of your pathetic inability to refute my debunking of your ridiculous loony-bin Prescott/Nazi claim, Donutball? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:09 PM:

" John McCain announced today that in keeping with the Bush doctrine, if elected, and the terrorists attack while he is president he would immediately draw up plans to invade Norway.
He also noted that he had ran this by his VP pick, Tom Delay, who agreed with him, but didn't want to get too involved with it because he was busy writing up new ethics laws for federally elected officials, in addition to his ongoing role as commentator on the Fixed news channel.

Be sure to tune into Delay's special on Fixed news: Ethical behavior in Congress in the modern era of politics. It should be a dandy of a show. Tom's special guests will be the convicted criminal, Duke Cunningham (calling in from prison) and the future, indicted for war crimes VP, Dick Cheney. Mark Foley was unavailable, because of his camping trip with a group of boy scouts he is now sponsoring. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:18 PM:

" Actually- Bush was right, when he recently said about his conversation with the Iraqi Foreign Minister: "I emphasized to him how encouraged I was by the reductions in violence in Iraq."

And when he told the IFM that his administration will make sure that we continue with the progress thats been made in Iraq.

That's the kind of support Iraq needs. "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:27 PM:

" Folks, capturing Osama Bin Laden is not the panacea that will solve terrorism in our lifetime. If we were to capture or kill OBL either way is fine with me there will be someone else who will take his place twenty minutes after his terrorism career is over.

A president must insure domestic tranquility and provide for the common defense, so MY goal will be to continue to search for terrorist cells in the US and the world and destroy them when they are found, but all the while bringing the US to a point of world-renowned strength that whether or not Bin Laden is alive or dead terrorists do not want to mess with us - either because they know they cannot penetrate our defenses or they know they're in for a very bad afternoon if they try.

http://voteformein2008.blogspot.com "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:38 PM:

" It really doesn't matter whether one thinks we SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be in Iraq. The fact is we're there - NOW what? As much as I'd like to yank the troops out of there, we've helped make it the mess it is - and I don't give a hoot whose fault it is - that we just can't say sayonara and head home.

Here's a thought . . . how about we let the Iraqi people decide if they still want us there? If they don't want us there, THEN we say sayonara and head home.

But if they DO want us there to try to fix the mess we made and help them build their country, I think we're somewhat obligated to do so. How about they PAY us for our help . . . say . . . in barrels of OIL??????

http://voteformein2008.blogspot.com "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:41 PM:

" Doh Doh's delusory meltdown continues. hee hee "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:52 PM:

" Hey Doh Doh, would you mind giving us your spin on the Nazi loving Prescott's phony medal story from the first world war? Remember that one? Or was that one just a phony deal too? I'll be if you try hard enough, you can make a case that old Herr Bush really was awarded those medals. Hey, if you can single handedly wipe out his involvement with the Nazis, you can surely handle his little phony French medal deal with ease. Spin this one for us, Doh Doh. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 6:56 PM:

" Harry Potter's mental ret@rdation seems incurable.........sob sob sob...... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 7:09 PM:

" Well gee whiz, Doughball- I'm still waitng for you to dial up that tinfoil-conspiracy-hat of yours and begin proving that Prescott Bush had any "involvement" with the Nazi's in the first place........screwball.... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 7:53 PM:

" Question: How do you spot a loser in any argument?

Answer: They ALWAYS resort to name calling, and old Doh Doh does it every time.

After watching him for months now, is anyone really surprised at this?

When he feels like he was put in a corner, he resorts to spinning, lying, posting his rerun cut and paste propaganda and of course, name calling.

Is it possible that there might be a serious mental health issue going on here with Dohnut?

Now get busy and work up some spin about that phony medal story about the Nazi loving Herr Bush, Dohnut. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:06 PM:

" Dohnut, a picture of Herr Bush kissing the ring of Adolf Hitler wouldn't convince a close mind like yours. As they old saying goes, you can't win a argument with a fool or a liar, and I can't decide which one you are. A little of both, I suspect. So go on living in your delusional world thinking George Bush is the greatest president ever, and that his grandfather was a true patriot, and all of those stories told about his actions prior to WW ll are just the figment of some left wing radical loony. But even though you have NEVER once admitted to being wrong about anything, deep down inside you and I both know you are, and that's good enough for me. I don't need to hear it from you. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:15 PM:

" tsk,tsk,tsk......how sad......so it's come to this.

....Harry Pooper, fresh off his failure to substantiate his wack-tard Prescott/Nazi conspiracy ravings, is now whining in a pathetic state of lunacy and depression.....sad really......

Hey, maybe the libtard-conspiracy-fairy will bring him a brand new, shiny, tin-foil hat so he can dial-in a fresh big batch of crazy.......dare he dream*.........sigh...... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:54 PM:

" Harry Potter- "But even though you have NEVER once admitted to being wrong about anything....."
-----
Oh but I was wrong about one thing Dohbaugh- I was wrong to assume that there might have been a modicum of rational thought and reason in your head.....but alas.......I was wrong..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 8:58 PM:

" Dohbaugh- "So go on living in your delusional world thinking George Bush is the greatest president ever, and that his grandfather was a true patriot,"
------
I don't recall ever saying that Dohbaugh......could you cite an example please....

Oh and- where was the big evil conviction of Prescott for his eeevilllll imaginary "Nazi connection".....? hmmmmmmmm? "

The Question wrote on Jul 1, 2008 9:48 PM:

" If we get an Obama in office, we'll never be able to win another war. "
--------------
If that were true, then Obama's track record would be the same as Bush's, wouldn't it, Doh? The ape can start a couple of wars, but he can't win any of them. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 1, 2008 9:59 PM:

" OBAMA AND THE CRAZY EX-GIRLFRIEND

Following this presidential campaign is like watching a friend of yours dump a psychotic, potentially homicidal girlfriend. In this case Obama is the friend, and the crazy soon-to-be ex is the left. In the beginning, Obama could indulge the crazies over at the Huffington Post and Move On.org, simply because, back then, the rest of America didn`t know who he was. He could be every bit as loopy as they are because the saner folk were too busy working real jobs.

But now that he has the nomination, he can drop the Wesley Clark`s of the world like a chlamydia-infested potato. Suddenly among the normal, Obama can no longer hold onto those nutty beliefs - which means, he must turn right. I predicted this months ago the Democrats know you can`t run left because you`ll lose which is funny, when you think about it. The only way your party can win, is to abandon your party`s beliefs.

See for yourself: Obama has flipped on the death penalty and thinks guns are peachy. He's accepted the foreign surveillance act and he's no longer entertaining high tea with Ahmadinejad. Now he`s up for expanding President Bush's faith-based programs, and blasted Moveon.org for calling General Petraeus a traitor.

His crazy ex-girlfriend must be cutting up his underwear.

But it`s not over yet. You wait until Obama returns from Iraq speaking of the brave troops, how violence has decreased and that the surge is working and how, in effect, we are winning the war. At this point he will embrace the phrase his lefty brethren mocked so well, which is "stay the course," and ultimately acknowledge that the whole thing might have been worth it after all. Once he abandons his idiotic stance on capital gains, the makeover will be complete.

So sit back and enjoy it, as the unbalanced ex-girlfriend roils in her basement apartment, blogging about her heartbreak to her loathsome friends, as the rest of us realize that Obama isn`t running against McCain, he`s turning into him.

And if you disagree with me, then you`re worse than Eric Alterman.

DAILYGUT.COM "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 12:18 AM:

" TQ- "If that were true, then Obama's track record would be the same as Bush's, wouldn't it, Doh? The ape can start a couple of wars, but he can't win any of them."
------

So I take it you think the ape was wrong, when he recently said about his conversation with the Iraqi Foreign Minister: "I emphasized to him how encouraged I was by the reductions in violence in Iraq."

And when the ape told the IFM that he will make sure that we continue with the progress thats been made in Iraq.

Was the ape wrong, Question? Is there no reduction in violence in Iraq? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 12:21 AM:

" TQ- "If that were true, then Obama's track record would be the same as Bush's, wouldn't it, Doh? The ape can start a couple of wars, but he can't win any of them."
------

Golly Question! I thought Al Qaeda and Saddam started these wars......?

Wasn't that what your Libtard Democrap party told everyone.....?

Well gee......I think it was...... "

Early Bird wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:39 AM:

" At least he didn't try to worm out of his name calling habit, Harry. I'm sort of surprised at that. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 7:06 AM:

" Speaking of slimy right wing politics, other that the resident fascist supporter, Herr Bryant, did anyone else hear about the lying weasel and shady Texan business man, who offered a million dollars to any one who could prove the swift-boats liars were wrong on any of their claims? Well it looks like some folks have taken him up his challenge, but upon hearing that, the ethically challenged Pickens immediately changed the rules. Typical right wing slimy politics. If you can't win fair and square, change the rules, or like our friend Herr Doh Doh, who starts calling names, goes into a cut a paste frenzy, claims he won the debate, despite having no proof other than his own blathering nonsensical prattle, question the intellect of your opposition etc etc. I think this country has had enough of those lying reprobates, and will vote all of those weasels out. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 7:08 AM:

" Hey, kids, Bush has adopted commie torture techniques. Makes you kinda proud to be a 'Murican, don't it?
---------------
The military trainers who came to Guantnamo Bay in December 2002 based an entire interrogation class on a chart showing the effects of "coercive management techniques" for possible use on prisoners, including "sleep deprivation," "prolonged constraint," and "exposure."
What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners.
The recycled chart is the latest and most vivid evidence of the way Communist interrogation methods that the United States long described as torture became the basis for interrogations both by the military at the base at Guantnamo Bay, Cuba, and by the Central Intelligence Agency. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 7:23 AM:

" "If we get an Obama in office, we'll never be able to win another war. "
--------------
Yet U.S. military personnel prefer Obama. Odd, isn't it?
Among people who have donated at least $200 to a presidential campaign this election cycle, Obama has collected more than $327,000 from those identifying themselves as military personnel, while McCain has collected $224,000, according to an analysis of Federal Election Commission data by The Associated Press.
An AP-Yahoo News poll conducted last month, found that veterans favored McCain over Obama 49 percent to 32 percent, while the two candidates ran about even in the population as a whole. Three-fourths of veterans in the survey thought McCain would be a good leader of the military, compared with one-fourth who thought likewise of Obama.
Nonetheless, dissatisfaction with the course of the war under President Bush and with the treatment of veterans returning home has given Obama, who did not serve in the armed forces, an opening with military voters and veterans. So does his appeal to younger people. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:10 AM:

" IRAQI PROGRESS CONTINUES: RECONCILIATION AND BENCHMARKS

WashingtonPost July 2 2008

"Sunni leaders now say the government has done enough to address their core conditions, including passing an amnesty law that has freed thousands of Sunni detainees this year. The leaders said they were also encouraged by the governments efforts in tackling Shiite militias, especially the Mahdi Army of Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

We feel that a great deal of them have been fulfilled, said Salim Abdullah al-Jubori, a spokesmen for the Sunni bloc, referring to the conditions.

If the Sunni bloc returns, it will mark a political victory for Maliki as well achieve a key U.S. policy goal. Sunnis would have a greater voice in a cabinet currently dominated by Shiites and Kurds." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:13 AM:

" IRAQI PROGRESS CONTINUES: RECONCILIATION AND BENCHMARKS

NEW IRAQ REPORT: 15 OF 18 BENCHMARKS SATISFACTORY

AP July 1 2008 "The White House sees the progress in a particularly positive light, declaring in a new assessment to Congress that Iraqs efforts on 15 of 18 benchmarks are satisfactoryalmost twice of what it determined to be the case a year ago. The May 2008 report card, obtained by the Associated Press, determines that only two of the benchmarksenacting and implementing laws to disarm militias and distribute oil revenuesare unsatisfactory.

In the past 12 months, since the White House released its first formal assessment of Iraqs military and political progress, Baghdad politicians have reached several new agreements seen as critical to easing sectarian tensions.

They have passed, for example, legislation that grants amnesty for some prisoners and allows former members of Saddam Husseins political party to recover lost jobs or pensions. They also determined that provincial elections would be held by Oct. 1." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:18 AM:

" WHAT IRAQI EXPATS ARE SAYING NOW

WSJ July 2, 2008 Cairo "Le Grillion is a restaurant-bar in the always-crowded downtown Cairo. But this restaurant has a particular significance amidst the relentless movement surrounding it. Le Grillion is a cultural center, where a wide spectrum of artists, playwrights, journalists and civil-society activists meet. Owned by an Iraqi, it has become a hive for many of the Iraqi expatriates who fled their country seeking refuge in Egypt. The discussion is endless, with a couple of new faces every night.

From deeply connected politicians to ordinary Iraqis, each has something to add. An interesting portrait of Iraq becomes full around midnight, an Iraq that is way more human than that shown on the Arab satellite channels (that of car bombs and sectarian conflicts). These Iraqis are not seeking an increase in viewership or a couple more pennies from ads before a newscast.

"I am from Fallujah" says one man an art agent with a cigar ever between his fingers. "We should make the most benefit from the Americans while we can. It is a moment of history. We either get a state now, or we will always be like this."

"The problem," responds a Baghdad printing house owner whose origins go back to the southern tribes, "is that since the day of the fall of the idol [Saddam's statue] people are asking who will rule us now. A disgusting question it is. It does not matter who rules, it matters how they rule."

I cannot keep my pleasure to myself. I saw my Iraq one that I have only seen in poetry in the near future: an oasis of peace and prosperity amidst the scorching desert, a home for its children and a sanctuary for its guests.

Women have something to add to this. A former colleague of mine at the University of Baghdad, who now lives with her family in Abu Dhabi, told me that she was stunned by the optimism of her fellow Iraqis when she went to support the Iraqi soccer team in a World Cup qualifier match against Australia in Dubai. "They were of every color in the Iraqi rainbow, but you can speak of two common things among them: telling you about their plans to go home within months and considering the Americans to be partners in that home they are returning to."

Another Chaldean Christian female friend of mine is now living in Jordan with her family after being forced to leave their house in Al-Ameriyya, Baghdad, by al Qaeda militants. She told me "it seems that the Americans know what they are doing. They have been so patient with us, but it seems that we have learned our lesson now."

Even those who were heralding the victory of "the resistance" are now lowering their voices before the simple but compelling logic of young men and women that have never been a part of any political process. I asked the gang at Le Grillion what they thought about the proposed long-term treaty with the Americans. The answer came immediately: "WE HAVE NOTHING TO GIVE THE AMERICANS; WE ARE THE ONES WHO SHOULD BE THANKFUL!"

Everyone nodded to the remark, except a couple of Egyptian communists sitting nearby. They dared not object, however.

My greatest fear and it seems to be the case for all my new friends here is the future of the American presence in Iraq. Our tongues and our minds have been freed, and yes we are heading home, but the Americans might run out of patience before we can make it." "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:46 AM:

" I must continue to ask: "What does it matter what polls say or what the breakdown is of people who contribute $200 to campaigns and identify themselves as military have to do with ANYTHING?????"

Polls don't make decisions and anyone with a high school diploma can (or could when I got out of high school) twist statistics to make a point.

Let's say the poll cited about the $200 contributors was absolutely correct. What is it about those contributors or the money they have contributed that's going to solve the Iraq question?

Not a darned thing!

All the money in the world cannot buy the leadership this country needs. Barack Obama (nor John McCain for that matter) has not done anything nor said anything that would cause me to believe they have any leadership qualities nor can they make any kind of decision without either seeing which way the wind is blowing or checking to see what the party line is.

We don't need a person who can cut through the cr4p, we need a person who WILL cut through the cr4p and make a decision based on what is best for the people of the US NOW and in the future.

http://voteformein2008.blogspot.com "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 9:28 AM:

" Question- "Yet U.S. military personnel prefer Obama. Odd, isn't it?"
------

Yes it is odd that you would be citing those evil "military personnel" who you claim have systematically killed and tortured "innocent" civilians in their "blood for oil" war......

yes that is odd of you, Question........and completely hypocritical......

in other words-

business as usual for you, huh Herr Goebbels........... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 10:19 AM:

" Go ahead Question,Harry Pooper- admit it...Bush was right wasn't he:

Bush was right, when he recently said about his conversation with the Iraqi Foreign Minister: "I emphasized to him how encouraged I was by the reductions in violence in Iraq."

And when Bush told the IFM that this administration will make sure that we continue with the progress thats been made in Iraq.

Go ahead Libtards, man-up, admit that Bush was right......you know you waaaaaannnnnnt tooooo.......tee hee hee hee................ "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 11:28 AM:

" Yes it is odd that you would be citing those evil "military personnel" who you claim have systematically killed and tortured "innocent" civilians in their "blood for oil" war......
-------
Hey, they're not stupid, Doh. They don't want to see the Republicans destroy what's left of the U.S., either. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 11:32 AM:

" Oopsy! Looks like no more mass murder sprees on the streets of Iraq for the Bush-backed Blackwater thugs. The fun times are over. So sad.
------
The US has agreed to scrap immunity for foreign security guards in Iraq, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari says.
The US embassy in Baghdad has not confirmed the announcement, which comes as the US and Iraq are negotiating a controversial security pact.
Foreign firms employing thousands of guards won huge contracts in Iraq after the 2003 US-led invasion, but were not subject to Iraqi or US military law.
Iraqi frustration became fury last year when guards killed 17 people in a day.
Correspondents say a deal on scrapping contractors' immunity brings the two countries closer to signing the long-term security pact.
The pact is meant to establish ground rules for a continuing US troop presence in Iraq after the UN mandate for foreign forces stationed there expires in December 2008.
'Trigger-happy'
The firm involved in the 2007 killings - Blackwater, one of the biggest security contractors in Iraq and which protects US diplomats - says its guards were acting in self-defence.
Eyewitnesses say guards of a US diplomatic convoy started shooting without provocation.
The incident brought to the fore a long-standing Iraqi complaint that the guards were little more than trigger-happy mercenaries. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 11:35 AM:

" Don't sprain yourself celebrating VI Day just yet, Doh Doh.
---------------
Commanders of the Mahdi Army are still finalising plans for an elite resistance unit that will target US troops in Iraq.
The leader of the Sadr movement, Muqtada al Sadr, announced more than two weeks ago that a specialised armed group would be set up to carry out guerrilla attacks on American troops. The rest of the movements Mahdi Army militia thought to number about 100,000 were to put down their weapons and concentrate on political and spiritual resistance to the US presence in Iraq, he said.
Little is known about the force and it will remain highly secretive so that its fighters can evade capture by either the American military or Iraqi government forces.
But Aaos al Khafagy, the general commander of the Mahdi Army in Nasariyah, a city 370km south-east of Baghdad, told The National the group was likely to contain thousands of men highly skilled in guerrilla warfare.
We are still in the process of deciding the exact framework and the final decisions are up to Muqtada al Sadr, he said. The groups will work in every Iraqi city and we expect to need thousands, not hundreds, of fighters to do that. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 11:56 AM:

" Psychological studies have shown that the personalities who test high as right-wing authoritarians often display these traits: highly religious, moderate to little education, trust untrustworthy authorities, prejudiced (particularly against homosexuals, women, and followers of religions other than their own), mean-spirited, narrow-minded, intolerant, bullying, zealous, dogmatic, uncritical toward their chosen authority, hypocritical, inconsistent and contradictory, prone to panic easily, highly self-righteous, moralistic, strict disciplinarian, severely punitive, demands loyalty and returns it, little self-awareness, usually politically and economically conservative/ Republican.
Sound like anyone we know? "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 12:30 PM:

" Many Republicans have called in to C-Span to grouse about the black eye the U.S. would
receive if it withdrew from Iraq. They generally forget to evoke the myth about the Iraq occupation being essential to U.S. security. And they don't bother to express any regret at the thousands of U.S. troops who will have to die while we stay there.
The truth is, many Republicans dont really mind U.S. troops being killed in a foreign occupation. The idea reinforces their ugly, tribal authoritarian streak. And they get misty-eyed when they think about all those young people dying for their corporate profits.
The U.S. troops in Iraq have to take the real bullet,
so that Republican egos here dont suffer a figurative black eye. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 12:57 PM:

" This one goes out to Rush's biggest fan of them all......you know him.....you love him......your children can out debate him......that's right- it's.......Harry Pooper (Rush Limbaughs Biggest Fan Of All Time)!

THE $400 MILLION MAN: LIMBAUGH LOCKED UP THROUGH 2016!

MEGASPLASH, MEGADEAL

"In what is being described as an unprecedented radio contract, Limbaugh will keep his syndicated show on-the-air and e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e through 2016 with CLEAR CHANNEL and PREMIERE RADIO.

Already host of the most lucrative hours since radios inception, Limbaughs total package is valued north of $400 million, according to media insiders.

The NEW YORK TIMES will claim this weekend that Limbaugh, marking 20 years this summer as a national host, has secured a 9-figure signing bonus for the new deal, newsroom sources tell DRUDGE." "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 3:40 PM:

" A perfect description (11:56 AM) of our delusional little buddy, Dohnut, TQ. Too bad we can't put a picture of him next to that description. The only thing you left out was, probably under 5 feet 5 inches tall. I'm convinced he's a little man and most of his bravado is overcompensation for his insecurities about his size. I've worked with a lot of little guys before and a lot of them seem to have had similar personalities to our little buddy, Dohnuthole. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:01 PM:

" Thanks for all the attention Herr Donuthole, but as I have explained to you many times, I listen to Pigboy for the same reason I read your drivel, pure entertainment. Old Pigboy is making a killing off of his blather, and all you do is sit in mommy's basement pounding out your cut and paste drivel along with its accompanying repeats of what others say. So maybe you're not as smart as you seem to think you are. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:02 PM:

" Question- "Hey, they're not stupid, Doh. They don't want to see the Republicans destroy what's left of the U.S., either."
------

Now when you say "they"; you are talking about the very same troops that you have accused of committing crimes against humanity- no TQ? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:07 PM:

" Question- "Don't sprain yourself celebrating VI Day just yet"
-------

Soooooooo....Bush was WRONG, Question?.......

....when he recently said about his conversation with the Iraqi Foreign Minister: "I emphasized to him how encouraged I was by the reductions in violence in Iraq."

And when Bush told the IFM that his administration will make sure that they continue with the progress that's been made in Iraq?

Soooo Bush was wrong about that, huh- Question? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:08 PM:

" George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.

hee hee "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:10 PM:

" TQ- "Sound like anyone we know?"
------
Yeah- Barry Hussein.

Just change that to Left-Wing...... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:10 PM:

" The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

hee hee "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:14 PM:

" After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.

Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.

Bush's partners in the secret web of Thyssen-controlled ventures included former New York Governor W. Averell Harriman and his younger brother, E. Roland Harriman. Their quarter-century of Nazi financial transactions, from 1924-1951, were conducted by the New York private banking firm, Brown Brothers Harriman.

The White House did not return phone calls seeking comment. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:22 PM:

" As for Rush Limbaugh, American right-wingers are going to badly need a therapist after the Democrats win the White House and both houses of Congress in a landslide. But they'll have to settle for a fat, ex-drug addict blowhard on the radio instead. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:46 PM:

" I agree, Harry. Doh must be a quite small man physically. His bristling sense of intellectual inferiority indicates that. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 5:09 PM:

" Sorry Harry Pooper-

Prescott Bush worked for, and was placed as 1 of seven directors of UBC by- W. Averell Harriman.

It was Harriman who joined Thyssen to originally start UBC- at the time the Nazi's weren't even in power yet-

but then Thyssen later became sympathetic to the Nazi's but finally turned against them and was imprisoned.

The investments were made by Thyssen while Harriman's brother held 3,991 shares- Bush had 1 share.

So you see screwy- Prescott's only connection with Thyssen was on paper.

AND Prescott's boss DEMOCRAT W. Averell Harriman- WAS A FOREIGN DIPLOMAT TO EUROPE FOR FDR AT THE TIME.

In other words- much ado about nuthin'

That's why Bush was never prosecuted.

By the way screwy- I already covered that Gaurdian article THREE DAYS AGO

........do try to keep up, doughyball.....geez!..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 5:13 PM:

" Question- "I agree, Harry. Doh must be a quite small man physically. His bristling sense of intellectual inferiority indicates that."
-------
Golly....! It's like you're looking in the mirror- huh Question. "

sapient wrote on Jul 2, 2008 5:28 PM:

" "We can't drive our SUV's and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK....That's not leadership. That's not going to happen." Barack Hussein Obama in a May speech.

So this is Obama's energy policy--drive a small death trap car, eat less, and freeze in the winter and roast in the summer. Now that's innovation. Sounds like Jimmy Carter is running again. The problem is NOT that gasoline is over $4.00 a gallon, food prices and energy prices are up. The problem is that bitter folks like most of us who are clinging to guns or religion, or have antipathy to people who aren't like us, we just aren't suffering enough.Let's increase suffering more. Let's conserve energy so China and other countries can have more. They deserve it--we don't. The US is just a rich arrogant nation whose time has passed. If we just repent of our evil ways and suffer more maybe third world dictators and petty tyrants around the world will start to like us.

Sounds like Jimmy Carter. While we waited in long lines for gasoline and was cold in the winter Jimmy told us to put on a sweater.

I think the United States is capable of more than that and I don't really give a rat's --- what dictators around the world who enrich their own pockets at the expense of their impoverished people think of us.

And another thing--I see where Barack Hussein Obama profited from a sweet home loan deal also. The same kind that Sen. Dodd and other dems got. HMMM...Must know the right people. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 5:59 PM:

" sapient-

BINGO! You nailed it my friend........Well put. "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jul 2, 2008 7:32 PM:

" sapient, I could not have said it better myself - although I'll probably try. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 7:51 PM:

" Oopsy! Bush's naked corruption is biting him in the backside again.
---------------
A government watchdog wants to see whether it can discipline Justice Department officials who improperly rejected liberal Ivy Leaguers and other top law students for plum jobs or take action against those who benefited from having GOP roots.
The inquiry by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel comes amid a class action lawsuit by one of the law students who was denied even an interview for one of the jobs, despite having worked for the Justice Department the year before.
Similar lawsuits against the department are expected.
An internal Justice Department investigation last month concluded that politics and ideology disqualified a significant number of newly graduated lawyers and summer interns seeking coveted Justice jobs in 2006. The report marked the culmination of a yearlong investigation into whether Republican politics were driving hiring polices at the once fiercely independent department. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:03 PM:

" Let's see, two terms of a Republican presidency has left us with:
- a two-front, endless military occupation.
- Pentagon spending larger than the rest of the world's military budgets combined.
- Record foreclosures.
- Record deficits.
- Record national debt.
- Record energy prices.
- Record high food prices.
- Record low value of the dollar.
- Plunging stock market.
- Rising unemployment.
- Constitutional protections shredded.
- World reputation in the toilet.
- Osama bin Laden left free to strike again.
- An America that has to borrow communist Chinese torture techniques, because we didn't know how. We didn't torture people until Bush and Cheney came along and had such a taste for it.
Have I left anything out, Doh Doh? "

sapient wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:31 PM:

" TQ: You are right. Isn't it amazing how the demo congress can screw things up in just a few short years? They are the ones who write and pass the bills you know. Maybe you don't. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:54 PM:

" On July 23, 2007, the BBC Radio 4 series Document reported on the alleged Business Plot and the archives from the McCormack-Dickstein Committee hearings. The program mentioned Bush's directorship of the Hamburg-America Line, a company that the committee investigated for Nazi propaganda activities, and the alleged 1933 attempt, supposedly led by Gerald MacGuire, to stage a military coup against President Franklin D. Roosevelt aimed at forcing Roosevelt to resign (or, failing that, to assassinate him) and at installing a fascist dictatorship in the United States.

When contacted for a statement, Doh Doh said, no comment. "

The Question wrote on Jul 2, 2008 8:59 PM:

" " TQ: You are right. Isn't it amazing how the demo congress can screw things up in just a few short years? They are the ones who write and pass the bills you know. Maybe you don't. "
-----
"A few years?" Good attempt at a lie, Sap. Try two years. Two years is not "a few." Before then, the presidency and the Congress were entirely in hot, greasy Republican hands, and they did exactly as they liked, and this string of disasters is the result, Sap. "

sapient wrote on Jul 2, 2008 9:01 PM:

" TQ: Two-front no end military occupation---must mean Bosnia and Somalia, Clinton's wars. No, can't be Somalia. Clintin cut and run there.

Military budget larger than the rest of the world combined----Oh yes, to save the schwantz of America haters like you.

Record foreclosures---Don't buy more house than you can afford.

Record energy prices---because the environuts won't allow us it harvest and use our energy resources and the demos are in lockstep with them.

Rising unemmployment---More people employed than ever before.

Constitutional protections shredded---I thought your side says that the constitution is a living, evolving document.

World reputation in the toilet---mostly from jealousy. People are trying to sneak in here to live in record numbers. It must not be too bad.

Osama bin Laden left free to strike again---you mean the guy that Bill Clinton had offered to him and turned the offer down? We had a bead on him until your side stopped us from intercepting Osama's phone calls.

Torturing prisoners---we mistreat those who cut off our heads on TV by making them go naked, scare them with dogs, and make them lay on a board while we put a wet towel on their face. Really not quite the same.

Yes, you left somethings out.
The best healthcare system in the world which BHO wants to trash. By the way, the Canadians are sending over half of their high risk pregnancies to the US for care. Socialized med doesn't seem to be working there.

Our restaurants are full when I go out to eat. People must have money.

When I go the store the shelves are well stocked and lots of people are shopping there.

Yes, you left a few things out. I could go on and on. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 2, 2008 9:13 PM:

" George Bush and Dick Cheney are talking, when Bush suddenly complains "I hate all the dumb George Bush jokes people tell about me."

Cheney, feeling sorry for his "boss," says "Oh, they're only jokes. There are a lot of truly stupid people out there. Here, I'll prove it to you."

Cheney takes Bush outside and hails a cab.

"Please take me to 29 Nickel Street to see if I'm home," says Cheney. The cab driver, without saying a word, drives them to 29 Nickel Street.

Cheney looks at Bush and says, "See! This guy is really stupid."

George Bush agrees. "He really is a dummy. There was a pay phone just around the corner. You could have called instead." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 2, 2008 9:53 PM:

" Harry Pooper- "The program mentioned Bush's directorship of the Hamburg-America Line, a company that the committee investigated for Nazi propaganda activities, and the alleged 1933 attempt, supposedly led by Gerald MacGuire, to stage a military coup against President Franklin D. Roosevelt"
------

Oh no! The case cracker!

Oooooooooooo more left-tard website conspiracies ooooooooo eeeeeevilllll

Hey uhm.....leaky-head.....FDR's very own State Dept special envoy to Europe DEMOCRAT WILLIAM AVERELL HARRIMAN-

HAD A DIRECT CONNECTION WITH NAZI SYMPATHIZER FRITZ THYSSEN ALL DURING WWII......

Now there's your conspiracy- screwy.

Do us all a favor Screwbaugh-
dial back your tin-foil hat a few degrees.....mkay?

Boy- I know I've given you quite a beating lately.......but I'm really starting to think I knocked some vital gray matter loose......

and on your Uncle Rush's big day too........for shame- screwy.....for shame.......... "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 5:55 AM:

" Dream your little Fox News fantasies, Sap. The sad truth is, seven years of fascist rule by Bush and Cheney have ruined this country economically, militarily and morally, and Obama won't be able to do much with the wreckage. McCain, with his deep psychological need to wage war, would only make matters worse.
Liberals have warned about exactly these consequences for years, but you people wanted to play in your ugly little fantasyland instead, so here we are. We're in big trouble, and laughable right-wing ravings about what a great economy we have and how many endless wars we're winning aren't going to do a thing to change that.
You'll do what all you right wingers are going to do - wait until the Democrats take over and then suddenly discover all the disasters you're lying about now. You'll have someone you can blame then, and I hope that will be comforting to you, because what you won't have is a way out. "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 6:02 AM:

" Here's how Bush works to help his corrupt crony capitalists pals seize Iraq's oil in violation of American policy.
----------
Bush administration officials knew that a Texas oil company with close ties to President Bush was planning to sign an oil deal with the regional Kurdistan government that ran counter to American policy and undercut Iraqs central government, a Congressional committee has concluded.
The conclusions were based on e-mail messages and other documents that the committee released Wednesday.
United States policy is to warn companies that they incur risks in signing contracts until Iraq passes an oil law and to strengthen Iraqs central government. The Kurdistan deal, by ceding responsibility for writing contracts directly to a regional government, infuriated Iraqi officials. But State Department officials did nothing to discourage the deal and in some cases appeared to welcome it, the documents show.
The company, Hunt Oil of Dallas, signed the deal with Kurdistans semiautonomous government last September. Its chief executive, Ray L. Hunt, a close political ally of President Bush, briefed an advisory board to Mr. Bush on his contacts with Kurdish officials before the deal was signed.
In an e-mail message released by the Congressional committee, a State Department official in Washington, briefed by a colleague about the impending deal with the Kurdistan Regional Government, wrote: Many thanks for the heads up; getting an American company to sign a deal with the K.R.G. will make big news back here. Please keep us posted.
The release of the documents comes as the administration is defending help that United States officials provided in drawing up a separate set of no-bid contracts, still pending, between Iraqs Oil Ministry in Baghdad and five major Western oil companies to provide services at other Iraqi oil fields.
In the no-bid contracts, the administration said it had provided what it called purely technical help writing the contracts. The United States played no role in choosing the companies, the administration has said.
Disclosure of those contracts has provided substantial fuel to critics of the Iraq war, both in the United States and abroad, who contend that the enormous Iraqi oil reserves were a motivation for the American-led invasion an assertion the administration has repeatedly denied. "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 6:09 AM:

" Here's the height of Bush-Cheney incompetent absurdity - U.S. taxpayers are paying to spy on the Iraqi forces that they already paying to field and equip!
But I guess that's what military occupation forces have to do, isn't it?
-------
Caught off guard by recent Iraqi military operations, the United States is using spy satellites that ordinarily are trained on adversaries to monitor the movements of the American-backed Iraqi army, current and former U.S. officials say.
The stepped-up surveillance reflects breakdowns in trust and coordination between the two forces. Officials said it was part of an expanded intelligence effort launched after American commanders were surprised by the timing of the Iraqi army's violent push into Basra three months ago.
The use of the satellites puts the United States in the unusual position of employing some of its most sophisticated espionage technology to track an allied army that American forces helped create, continue to advise, and often fight alongside. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 3, 2008 7:03 AM:

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 3, 2008 7:07 AM:

" For the Bush family, it is a lingering nightmare. For their Nazi clients, the Dutch connection was the mother of all money laundering schemes. From 1945 until 1949, one of the lengthiest and, it now appears, most futile interrogations of a Nazi war crimes suspect began in the American Zone of Occupied Germany. Multibillionaire steel magnate Fritz Thyssen-the man whose steel combine was the cold heart of the Nazi war machine-talked and talked and talked to a joint US-UK interrogation team. For four long years, successive teams of inquisitors tried to break Thyssen's simple claim to possess neither foreign bank accounts nor interests in foreign corporations, no assets that might lead to the missing billions in assets of the Third Reich. The inquisitors failed utterly.

Why? Because what the wily Thyssen deposed was, in a sense, true. What the Allied investigators never understood was that they were not asking Thyssen the right question. Thyssen did not need any foreign bank accounts because his family secretly owned an entire chain of banks. He did not have to transfer his Nazi assets at the end of World War II, all he had to do was transfer the ownership documents - stocks, bonds, deeds and trusts--from his bank in Berlin through his bank in Holland to his American friends in New York City: Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker. Thyssen's partners in crime were the father and father-in-law of a future President of the United States. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 3, 2008 7:12 AM:

" Former war crimes prosecutor links Bush family to Nazis

Sarasota [FL] Herald-Tribune

Nov. 12, 2000

The president of the Florida Holocaust Museum said Saturday that George W. Bush's grandfather derived a portion of his personal fortune through his affiliation with a Nazi-controlled bank.

John Loftus, a former prosecutor in the Justice Department's Nazi War Crimes Unit, said his research found that Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, was a principal in the Union Banking Corp. in Manhattan in the late 1930s and the 1940s. Leading Nazi industrialists secretly owned the bank at that time, Loftus said, and were moving money into it through a second bank in Holland even after the United States declared war on Germany.

The bank was liquidated in 1951, Loftus said, and Bush's grandfather and great-grandfather received $1.5 million from the bank as part of that dissolution.

"That's where the Bush family fortune came from: It came from the Third Reich," Loftus said.Loftus made his remarks during a speech as part of the Sarasota Reading Festival. The co-author of Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis and the Swiss Banks, Loftus documented the Swiss bank accounts that harbored funds confiscated from Holocaust victims and the participation of Italian priests in smuggling Nazi war criminals to safe haven in Canada, Central and South America and the United States after the war "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 3, 2008 7:15 AM:

" It was a matter of public record that the Bush holdings were seized by the U.S. government after the Nazis overran Holland. "

Raptor wrote on Jul 3, 2008 8:36 AM:

" Clearly we are in the midst of a shift of political delineations. As a registered Republican I cannot support our current presidential candidate. Further, the lack of conservative values represented on a local level are also disappointing.
I am exploring the Libertarian and Green party candidates much more closely than before. It will be instructive to see the results of the States Attorney race.
Isn't there an old saying that all politics is local? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 8:59 AM:

" Harry Pooper- "It was a matter of public record that the Bush holdings were seized by the U.S. government after the Nazis overran Holland."
--------

Bush's holdings consisted of ONE share- out of 3,991 shares

Bush worked for Harriman (A Democrat working for FDR)- who started the UBC with Thyssen

It was Thyssen who made the investments mainly in German steel production

It was NOT illegal for companies to hold German stock before the war

After war was declared- the U.S. assets of the UBC were frozen by the United States Government on May 10, 1940 when Germany invaded the Netherlands.

HOWEVER, AT THE ADVICE OF WILLIAM R. WHITE, NEW YORK SUPERINTENDENT OF BANKS, the Harriman directors of UBC (OF WHICH BUSH WAS ONE- OUT OF SEVEN) were to remain in control of the UBC until the entire corporation was formally seized by the government in 1942.

Did you get that- screwy?

The seven directors WERE TOLD TO STAY IN CONTROL UNTIL THE FEDS COULD TAKE CONTROL. DID YOU GET THAT?

Oh and- no convictions were ever handed out.

Once again all your sourcing goes back to the same Guardian article that uses John Buchanan as its source

John Buchanan is a certifiable loon.

When Buchanan presented his "evidence" to the mainstream media- THEY TOOK A HUGE PASS ON IT.

Once again- screwy- this is a non-story.

Now- keep burning up the batteries in that tin-foil hat of yours........screwy......... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:09 AM:

" Oh Geeeeeez!

And here's what ole screwy Harry Pooper LEFT OUT OF HIS LITTLE ARTICLE:

"Although he said he had a file of paperwork linking the bank and Prescott Bush to Nazi money, Loftus did not provide that documentation Saturday."

LOL!!!! OH BROTHER........

AND THIS:

"Loftus pointed out that the Bush family would not be the only American political dynasty to have ties to the "wrong side of World War II." The Rockefellers had financial connections to Nazi Germany, he said."

AND THIS:

"Loftus also reminded his audience that John F. Kennedy's father, an avowed isolationist and former ambassador to Great Britain, profited during the 1930s and '40s from Nazi stocks that he owned."

AND THIS:

"No one today blames the Democrats because Jack Kennedy's father bought Nazi stocks," Loftus said. Still, he said, it is important to understand these historical connections for what they tell us about politics today. The World War II experience points out how easy it was then -- and remains today -- to hide money in multinational funds."
-------

ROFLMAO! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:27 AM:

" OH and look at this!

"Also a director is H. D. Pennington, Brown Brothers Harriman and Co. manager.

On Jan. 14, 1941, Knight Wooley, another partner in the Harriman company, wrote to State Banking Superintendent William R. White *IN BEHALF* of Harriman, Morris, *PRESCOTT BUSH* and Pennington:

"Should the United States enter the war, they feel they might be under some embarrassment because of their connection with the bank, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE NO FINANCIAL INTEREST IN THE Union Banking Corporation, NOR DO WE PARTICIPATE IN ITS EARNINGS."
--------

LMAO!!!! ooooooooooo.....eeeeevillllll conspiracy......oooooooooooo

Thanks for proving my point- screwy........lol.... "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 2:43 PM:

" Well, here's one way Bush can always get more troops. Just lie to them and keep them in combat forever.
---------------
The Pentagon has extended the tour of 2,200 Marines in Afghanistan, after insisting for months the unit would come home on time.
The 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which is doing combat operations in the volatile south, will stay an extra 30 days and come home in early November rather than October, Marine Col. David Lapan confirmed Thursday.
Military leaders as recently as Wednesday stressed the need for additional troops in Afghanistan. Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has repeatedly praised the work of the 24th MEU in fighting Taliban militants in Helmand Province.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates, however, has repeatedly said he did not intend to extend or replace the U.S. Marines in Afghanistan, calling their deployment there an extraordinary, one-time effort to help tamp down the increasing violence in the south.
Asked about the possibility of an extension in early May, Gates said he would "be loath to do that." He added that "no one has suggested even the possibility of extending that rotation." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 2:58 PM:

" Question- "Well, here's one way Bush can always get more troops. Just lie to them and keep them in combat forever."
-----

Now TQ, aren't those the very same troops you've accused of committing war crimes?

Well, yes...they are.

So one minute you paint them as criminals-

and the next minute you portray them as victims.

But hey, whatever it takes to keep up your anti-war propaganda- huh Herr Goebbels.

Sieg Heil! "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 4:59 PM:

" Now TQ, aren't those the very same troops you've accused of committing war crimes?
------
Now, BL, aren't these very same troops you pretend to revere, and let you never protest when Bush lies to them and sends them back into combat over and over again? What's your supposed "support" for the troops worth, BL, besides fascist talking points? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 6:17 PM:

" Question- "Now, BL, aren't these very same troops you pretend to revere, and let you never protest when Bush lies to them and sends them back into combat over and over again? What's your supposed "support" for the troops worth, BL, besides fascist talking points? "
---------------------

The difference here is that I "get" that the majority of the troops understand that tours have to be extended as the situation changes.

That doesn't mean that they have to like it- and they don't-

but you see TQ- this is what makes the troops so darned special;

They understand when they sign up that it's not going to be easy.
They understand the special commitment that it takes in a time of war. They understand that they are performing a duty that very few of us pampered civilians could ever dream of doing. They understand that the job needs to be finished now, rather than later- even if it means longer tours.

Now, what the majority of them DON'T understand- is Liberal anti-war mouth-pieces like you- Question, who fill these pages on an almost daily basis, expounding on their supposed "failures" and worse yet- their alleged "crimes against humanity", only to turn around and shed contrived crocodile tears for their prolonged stay- when it is obvious to everyone and their dog, that your only motivation is to further a political agenda for a party, that actual views the military with contempt.

So now then TQ, I answered your question.

Can you answer mine?

Aren't these the very same troops that you've accused of committing war crimes, TQ? "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 7:09 PM:

" Aren't these the very same troops that you've accused of committing war crimes, TQ?
-------
I pity the troops, and I pity the innocent Iraqis whom they have killed and whose country they have invaded without justification. I would like to see all the troops out of Iraq - for the sake of the troops, for the sake of the Iraqis and for the sake of America, which is being morally destroyed by these fascist, imperialist Bush-Cheney policies.
But my convictions are irrelevant here. What IS relevant is that Bush has lied to the troops about their deployments, over and over and over, using them as expendable cannon fodder, while you propaganda-sucking "patriots" sit mute, waiting for your next set of talking points to arrive from Karl Rove.
Bush thinks the troops are having a great time on their endless tours, BL. "I must say, I'm a little envious," he said. "If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines of helping this young democracy succeed."
"It must be exciting for you ... in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You're really making history, and thanks," Bush said.
There is no "time of war." There is no "job" that "needs to be finished." That's vague, lying hogwash. There is only a disastrous, $3 billion-a-week military occupation that needs to be finished -- now. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 7:27 PM:

" And there you go again, TQ.

You "pity" the very same troops that you accuse of killing "innocent Iraqis" and of invading their country "without justification".

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.

You either think that the troops are culpable in your alleged "crimes"- or you don't.

So which is it? "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 8:00 PM:

" There you go again, Doh, I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. You can't support the troops, and support Bush's lies to them, lies that betray them into endless tours of combat duty.
So which is it?
I know how you could help the troops, BL. Since you're all enthused about invading countries that never attacked or threatened the U.S. and killing innocent people there, why don't you enlist? I'm sure the troops would appreciate having a big-mouth hero like you around to mop up the dead-enders for them.
Or are you like Bush and Cheney, preferring to play it safe at home while other people die in immoral wars that you applaud? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 8:31 PM:

" Question- "There you go again, Doh, I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. You can't support the troops, and support Bush's lies to them, lies that betray them into endless tours of combat duty.
So which is it?"
--------

Oh but I do support the troops-

And Bush isn't lying- the conditions warrant longer tours- it's called "war"

........and uhm.....29 Democrats voted for it. And no one told any "lies" to justify it. The lies came later on from the Democrat side.

Or didn't you hear about that, TQ?

Oh and, I'm too old to enlist.

So why haven't you joined Mooki Al Sadr's boys so you can help him drive out the American troops that you so despise TQ..........?

Remember those troops?......The American troops that you have accused of committing war crimes......remember them TQ.....?

See that- you never answered my question, yet I was kind enough to go ahead and answer your question.

See how considerate and brave I am?

Are you ready to be brave and answer my question now, TQ? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 8:48 PM:

" Question- "I'm sure the troops would appreciate having a big-mouth hero like you around to mop up the dead-enders for them."

---------

I'm sure Mooki Al Sadr or perhaps Al Qaeda would love to have a big-mouth anti-American like you around, TQ- to set up some road side bombs or maybe set off an explosive device in a crowded market for them. You know- whatever it takes to stop those terrible war crimes by those eeeeeevilllll Americans. But hey- I'm preaching to the choir here- am I right, TQ? Yeah- of course I am. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 3, 2008 9:24 PM:

" As a general rule, chicken-hawks have big mouths and a yellow stripe down their back. Prime examples: Dick Cheney, George Bush and Doh who is obviously a sniveling little weasel of a coward. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 3, 2008 9:31 PM:

" More good reading about Doh's hero grandpappy:

Seized
On October 20, 1942, under authority of the Trading with the
Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its
assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting
Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian
and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley.

In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the
first of the Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities,
Hamburg-American Line, under Vesting Order No. 126, also
signed by Crowley. Eight days after the seizure of UBC,
Congress invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to
take control of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses
- Holland-American Trading Corp. (Vesting Order No. 261)
and Seamless Steel Equipment Corp. (Vesting Order No. 259).

The documents from the Archives also show that the Bushes
and Harrimans shipped valuable U.S. assets, including gold, coal,
steel and U.S. Treasury bonds, to their foreign clients overseas
between 1931-33, as Hitler engineered his rise to power. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:28 PM:

" LOL...

"Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses"....?

"Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities"....?

Oh Brother.....

I'm afraid those "titles" are right out of the loony head of John Buchanan.

The same wacky-tard that you've been citing- screwball.

Sorry Dohbaugh- Harriman and Thyssen owned UBC- Bush was just one of seven directors.

If there was any investments being directed it would have been by Thyssen and possibly Harriman- remember they started and owned UBC.

Oh and- investments to "foreign clients overseas" was perfectly legal before WWII.

lol..........cookoo cookoo cookoo...... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:34 PM:

" Harry Pooper- "As a general rule, chicken-hawks have big mouths and a yellow stripe down their back. Prime examples: Dick Cheney, George Bush and Doh who is obviously a sniveling little weasel of a coward."
------

Golly dohbaugh you sure have your knickers in a twist tonight.....

was it sumthin' ah said, sunshine......?

I wonder how you're going to justify a sniveling little weasel of a coward chicken-hawk like Barry Hussein Obama as Commander in Chief....? "

The Question wrote on Jul 3, 2008 10:53 PM:

" Interesting reading, Harry. Thanks. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 7:50 AM:

" I really don't want to be responsible for Doh Doh having a complete meltdown over my messages about his heroes grandpappy, so I will move onto other Bushes, in the ongoing Bush family values saga.

The next posts will be about little brother Jeb and his sleazy tribe.

All three of Florida Governor Jeb Bush's children, Noelle, Jeb Junior, and George P. Bush, have appeared in Florida police reports.

We all know about Noelle Bush, who called a Tallahassee Walgreen's Tuesday pretending to be doctor "Noelle SCIDMORE." The 24-year-old was eventually led off in handcuffs for attempting to illegally purchase a controlled substance.

But if you prefer sex scandals instead of drug scandals, you'll be rooting for her brother Jeb Bush Jr. A little over a year ago two security officers at the Tallahassee Mall found him parked in a blue Jeep Cherokee with an under aged female. Both Jeb and the teen aged girl were naked from the waist down -- and according to the police report, the two were apparently caught in the act of making sweet monkey love.

A historical footnote. The sexual position Jeb had chosen for his illicit love-making session was "The Black Bee." A kama sutra web site offers this vivid description of the female-dominant position. (reminds me of the Bush/Cheney relationship) "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 7:57 AM:

" More Bush family values?

If you've been worried sick about what would become of ex-Governor Jeb "No Futuro" Bush since his big brother totally blew his chances for ever being elected president, here's some great news. Jeb is now officially on the board of Tenet Healthcare, at an annual pay of $474,500--for 13 days of work per year. It's a special board seat created just for Jeb, at the suggestion of an old Bush family friend and fundraiser. (Do they even have any family friends who aren't also fundraisers?)

As calculated by TheStreet.com, Jeb stands to collect a tidy $36,500 per day. All he has to do is sit on the board of a hospital chain so ethically challenged that even the Bush administration went after them.

This is good news for Jeb, as he has to have a steady reserve of cash for bailing his kids out of jail.

Some good things coming about Jeb's wife and brother Neil too.... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 8:17 AM:

" Sorry, Doh. This one is not about your hero, shrubs' brother, but I thought this one was too good to pass up:

REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES:
Then-GOP Presidential candidate Governor George W. Bush: According to the Houston Chronicle:
Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clintons administration for not doing enough to enunciate a goal
for the Kosovo military action and indicated the bombing campaign might not be a tough enough
response. Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit
strategy is, Bush said. [Houston Chronicle, 4/9/99]

We were sort of thinking the same thing about an exit strategy for Iraq, Mr President. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 10:02 AM:

" More Bush family values:

Jeb Bush's wife, Columbia Bush was embarrassed after she got caught smuggling almost $20,000 worth of clothes and jewelery into America after a trip to France.

When asked about the incident, Jeb replied, "well, at least they weren't drugs."

Based on the news reports, it looks like the children of Jeb and George W will be keeping up the Bush family values tradition.

Those Bush family values events have no end. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 10:23 AM:

" More tidbits on the family of Jetho Bush:

WASHINGTON The youngest son of Florida Gov Jeb Bush and the nephew of President George W Bush has been arrested in Austin, Texas, on charges of public intoxication and resisting arrest, The Austin American-Statesman reported Friday.

Citing police officials, the newspaper said John Ellis Bush, 21, was taken into custody around 2:30 a.m. Friday in the downtown entertainment district.

Bail was set at $2,500, but he was released on his own recognizance, meaning he must pay the $2,500 if he doesn't appear for court, the report said.

According to an affidavit for the resisting arrest charge cited by the paper, Bush continually pushed against an officer for the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission as the officer attempted to handcuff him.

"Subject further resisted by pushing back with his body as he was restrained at the transport van," the document said, according to The Statesman.

Ah, those Bush family values.... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 4, 2008 10:43 AM:

" NYT EDITORIAL: THIS IS NOT THE OBAMA WE KNEW.....LOL!!!!!!
--------

NEW AND NOT IMPROVED (July 4, 2008)

"Senator Barack Obama stirred his legions of supporters, and raised our hopes, promising to change the old order of things.
......
"Now there seems to be a new Barack Obama on the hustings. First, he broke his promise to try to keep both major parties within public-financing limits for the general election.
......
"The new Barack Obama has abandoned his vow to filibuster an electronic wiretapping bill if it includes an immunity clause for telecommunications companies that amounts to a sanctioned cover-up of Mr. Bushs unlawful eavesdropping after 9/11."
......
"The Barack Obama of the primary season used to brag that he would stand before interest groups and tell them tough truths. The new Mr. Obama tells evangelical Christians that he wants to expand President Bushs policy of funneling public money for social spending to religious-based organizations a policy that violates the separation of church and state and turns a government function into a charitable donation."
.......
"On top of these perplexing shifts in position, we find ourselves disagreeing powerfully with Mr. Obama on two other issues: the death penalty and gun control."
......
"Mr. Obama endorsed the Supreme Courts decision to overturn the District of Columbias gun-control law. We knew he ascribed to the anti-gun-control groups misreading of the Constitution as implying an individual right to bear arms. But it was distressing to see him declare that the court provided a guide to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe.
.......
"We were equally distressed by Mr. Obamas criticism of the Supreme Courts barring the death penalty for crimes that do not involve murder."
.......
"We are not shocked when a candidate moves to the center for the general election. But Mr. Obamas shifts are striking because he was the candidate who proposed to change the face of politics, the man of passionate convictions who did not play old political games."
----------

BWWAHHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

......I told you libtard's that The Messiah was just another Chicago slime-ball politician.......yep I told you.........LOL..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 4, 2008 10:54 AM:

" LOL!!!

OBAMA'S IRAQ QUAGMIRE

ABCNEWS July 03, 2008 4:40 PM

"Theres been lots of speculation this week about whether Sen. Barack Obama has an Iraq problem. HE DOES NOW.

His comments Thursday, saying that he will continue to refine his plan to withdraw combat troops from Iraq inside of 16 months, seems likely to leave the campaign on the defensive on this issue for days or weeks.

And it increases the likelihood that his trip to Iraq later this month will not turn out like Obama wants it to.

There will be only one relevant question now out of Obamas trip now: Do you stand by your plan? Obama is unlikely to give a direct, yes-or-no answer -- and thats where Sen. John McCain and his allies can and will pounce."
-------

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

God help me.....I'm soooooo loving this clown!............

There's no way he can do anything BUT completely p!ss his disciples off!....LOL........ "

The Question wrote on Jul 4, 2008 11:16 AM:

" "How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be 'American' before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism!"
Edith Wharton "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 12:17 PM:

" America's Best Christian, Mrs. Betty Bowers, has announced plans to open a halfway house exclusively for George and Barbara Bush's grandchildren. "We wanted it to be available to others, but with the nursing shortage, we are probably going to be too busy already just attending to the sundry addictions of America's First Family of Politics," said Mrs. Bowers as she cut the ribbon. "Whereas White House occupant Betty Ford opened a facility to keep Liza Minnelli off the street, this is a way of returning the favor by finally providing a place for people in the White House to dry out."

"When I saw the mug shot of Noelle Bush on CNN I didn't recognize her at first" said Mrs. Betty Bowers on FOX News. "I instinctively asked my personal shopper Anne Thrope if all of our Christian Crack Whores in Tallahassee were accounted for. I remember running into Noelle at the GOP convention in Philadelphia, but she didn't have the glassy-eyed look of someone who pops curiously strong Xanax and Vicodin like Altoids. And believe me, as spiritual advisor to Laura Bush, that is a look I would have recognized. When Bar told me to keep an eye on the addict, I thought she was directing my attention to the podium for the acceptance speech. Fortunately, with Jenna and Barbara two seats away, I was keeping a close watch over my purse anyway. And we were all on edge after Liddy Dole's bag the oversize one covered in carpet had been rummaged through. Nine of her cute little airline bottles of Captain Morgan were missing before the invocation." "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 3:33 PM:

" To give the Bushes a break for a while, I will now turn my attention to the sleazy Dick Cheney for Doh's entertainment:

"Dick Cheney again this week was in the hospital. He was experiencing discomfort in his leg. And the doctor asked Cheney if he stretches. Cheney said, 'Are you kidding? I linked 9/11 with Saddam Hussein.'" --Bill Maher "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 3:42 PM:

" Or how about this one, Doh Doh?

Gun rules by Deadeye Dickie Cheney:

ALWAYS KEEP YOUR GUN LOADED: Guns are tools built for one purpose: killing. Not having it filled with ammo makes about as much sense as waiting until tee time to put clubs in your calfskin golf bag. When you pick up a gun, always confirm that it is loaded by blowing away something that annoys you. Also, safeties are for pussies.

ALWAYS KEEP YOUR GUN AIMED AT STUFF: This is Deadeye Dick's most important rule! Keeping your gun pointed at someplace you hope there might be something to kill means that you're way less likely to waste valuable bullets on shots that don't even draw blood.
ALWAYS KEEP YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER: Whether it's a bird in the bush or a geriatric trial lawyer stumbling in a senile haze, you never know when your target will make a break for it. That's why your sweaty finger should ALWAYS be caressing the sensitive curves of your unit's trigger. (Just watch out for occasional jolts from your bionic heart!)

ALWAYS BRING DOCTORS SO YOU DON'T GET CHARGED WITH MURDER: Sure it's awesome to shoot stuff, but on the off-chance you "accidentally" hit a "friend" in the face after guzzling some hipflask whiskey, you don't want land in jail and get your enormous dimpled heiny drilled by white-collar criminal Yalies named Chad for three to five years. So make sure at least two or three top-notch cardiovascular surgeons are with you AT ALL TIMES! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 4:02 PM:

" THE VICE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon. Please be seated. This is going to be short and sweet. I have a vacation to get back to.

As you know, before I became Vice President, I was CEO of the Halliburton Corporation from 1995 to 2000. This week, SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt, who has me to thank for his damned job in the first place, announced that he will aggressively investigate me over Halliburton accounting practices during my tenure. Furthermore, the ultra-conservative group Judicial Watch, which was instrumental in bringing about Bill Clinton's impeachment - has filed a lawsuit accusing me of engaging in accounting fraud. And to top it off, President Bush has very publicly professed my innocence in a semi-successful attempt to divert media attention away from his dirty Harken deal back in 1990.

Hey - I see the writing on the wall. I'm being set up as the fall guy. But that's OK. I mean, I was going to bow out of the picture in 2004 anyway. Tom Ridge can do my job. He's just sitting around making Powerpoint presentations that nobody cares about anyway. And this robo-ticker in my chest is on its last legs, so if I'm ever going to accompany Lynne on one of her cross-country book burning tours, it might as well be now. Besides, it's not like I'm going to live long enough to ever have to do time. So why not just go with the flow?

All that said, I did want to take a minute to speak directly to all the poor folks who still own shares of Halliburton. I know that some of you are hurting - primarily those of you who were too clueless to follow my lead and cash out before the stock went into the toilet. I know that you've had a rough couple years watching your retirement savings and children's college funds simply vaporize - and I know you're wondering just how you're ever going to recover. Yes, I know all these things as I sit here atop my $50 million personal fortune. But I want you to know just one more thing, and to really really listen to me and take it to heart: I have a heavily armed Secret Service detail - and will for the rest of my life.

This concludes my remarks on this subject. Thank you. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 4:11 PM:

" Hey Doh Doh, your fellow rightie, cd says that most of the Prescott stories are probably true, so what's the deal with that? Think old cd might be going libtard on us?

It looks like you're not getting much support in your denial about old Prescott's Nazi connections, perhaps it's time for you to to start ghost posting some support for yourself and don't forget to give yourself some kudos.

I'm really disappointed that Tommy boy didn't try to help you out on this one. Oh, wait a minute, despite his paranoid views on some topics, Tommy actually has a brain. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 4:18 PM:

" Bush World:

"Bush said his brother, Jeb, would make a great president. That's all we need. Big Brother's little brother." --Bill Maher

"President Bush said he'd like to see his brother, Jeb, become president. Great campaign slogan -- 'Jeb Bush: Couldn't do any worse.'" --Jay Leno

"The president said his brother Jeb 'would be a great president.' I guess we voted for the wrong one then." --Jimmy Kimmel

"Florida Gov. Jeb Bush says he wants to be president. Well that's good, somebody will have to pardon his brother." --David Letterman

"Rumor is that President Bush's brother, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, may run for president. Rumor is? According to Florida voting machines, he's already won." --Jay Leno

"Jeb Bush now says he would like to be president, and I think I speak for all Americans when I say, 'When can you start, Jeb?'" --David Letterman

"George Bush's brother Jeb, who is the governor of Florida, says he wants to be president. And you can't blame him. Right now the Bush name is magic." --David Letterman

"Governor Jeb Bush of Florida has announced he might run for president, because how many times have you thought to yourself that all we need is one more Bush in the White House? Actually, experts say he's a shoe-in because he owns all of the crooked voting machines." --David Letterman

"The big question, what's going to get dried out first, New Orleans or Gov. Jeb Bush's son? You hear about this? President Bush's nephew, John Ellis Bush, who is Jeb Bush's son, was arrested for public drunkenness and resisting arrest. Apparently the family's concerned that this behavior will hurt his chances of having a political career. But it didn't hurt Uncle George" --Jay Leno "

The Question wrote on Jul 4, 2008 4:29 PM:

" Bush finally hears from the American people.
------
The AP reports that protesters repeatedly interrupted President Bush as he gave a speech on the 4th of July at Monitcello:
Anti-war protesters shouted out calls for Bush's impeachment on nine occasions during Bush's brief remarks, and the president responded by saying he agrees that "we believe in free speech in the United States of America."[...]
The 150 or so demonstrators, from a variety of groups opposing Bush's policies on the war in Iraq, also rallied along the path of the president's motorcade to Monticello.
CNN reports that the various protesters yelled such things as "war criminal" and "He has brought fascism to this shore."
-------
I guess that'll teach Bush not to venture outside his hand-picked Republican audiences or military crowds that are ordered to cheer him. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 4:33 PM:

" Cindy McCain should have married into the Bush family. She would fit right in with the rest of those lawbreaking scumbags.

Here's an interesting tidbit, the drugs that she stole were intended for third word orphans.

The cookie recipe thefts were pretty minor compared to this inexcusable and criminal act.

Between the President, the VP and both of their families, both immediate and extended, I'm betting this sleazy administration set a record for personal arrests.

Questions on the Bush administrations arrests might make a good quiz. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 4, 2008 5:21 PM:

" After I completely destroyed Harry Pooper's tin-foil hat conspiracy theory about his ridiculous Bush/Nazi "relationship" it looks as if ole "chock-full-o'-nuts" has gone completely off his rocker in here.

Of course he had to rapidly change the topic last night after I debated "The Question" into a corner over his blatant contradiction of treating the troops as criminals, and then using them as victims to suit his ever-changing stream of propaganda.

.....sad really.....yet...very predictable behavior from libtards....

there is no more dishonest group of people than these scum...... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 4, 2008 5:37 PM:

" 1,215 TROOPS RE-ENLIST IN BAGHDAD ON INDEPENDENCE DAY

Petraeus: You and your comrades here have been described as Americas new greatest generation, and, in my view, you have more than earned that description. It is the greatest of honors to soldier here with you.

-----

Gee- I guess these troops don't feel "lied" to- do they TQ......

Do you think they believe they're making progress, TQ?.....Harry Pooper?........?

Are things getting better in Iraq libtards......? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 4, 2008 5:41 PM:

" Pro-life black pastors wary of Obama
Views clash on abortion

"Conservative black pastors nationwide are caught between irreconcilable opposites - congregations that overwhelmingly favor Sen. Barack Obama versus their personal doubts about the Illinois Democrat's politics, particularly on abortion.

WashingtonTimes July 4, 2008

"It's a theological contradiction, from the Christian perspective, to be excited about Obama," said the Rev. Levon Yuille, pastor of the 100-member Bible Church in Ypsilanti, Mich. "Very few black pastors have problems supporting Obama because they are fixated on this race thing."
---------- "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 6:37 PM:

" After I completely destroyed Harry Pooper's tin-foil hat conspiracy theory about his ridiculous Bush/Nazi "relationship" it looks as if ole "chock-full-o'-nuts" has gone completely off his rocker in here.

After that statement, I would say you are confused about who destroyed who, nutbag.

TQ and fb have been beating you like a toy drum for months on here, so I just decided to join the fun.

That's some delusional fog you live in.

Is there a lot of pot smoke in your mom's basement?

Actually, I backed off because of your over the top reaction, to all the Prescott information, Dohnut. I was afraid you were going to blow a gasket or something.

And by the way, I was glad to see that you took my advice about the Google things. LOL!

Now you wouldn't be ignoring my little question about where's all of your support on here, and cd's comment, would you? hee hee...

Obviously you are crying out for more Bush reports so I won't disappoint you. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 7:02 PM:

" More of the ongoing Prescott Bush saga.

The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady Internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.

Hmmm.....the plot thickens LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 4, 2008 7:08 PM:

" Harry Pooper - "TQ and fb have been beating you like a toy drum for months on here,"
------

Really Harry Screw-ball?

Prove it- cite one example.

And in the meantime I'll cite these:

TQ nor fb- Could ever show any evidence that any pre-war Intel was lied about or manipulated-

In fact their only evidence was-

-The Downsyndrome Memo- which is a fake created on a type-writer of all things.

-A CIA informant who actually said that Saddam HAD 500 tons of CW

-Bush's 16 words- which the British STILL support

-And the latest Jay Rockefeller Senate Report which accused Bush of saying THE EXACT same things that Rockefeller said

And none of you libtards have been able to refute The Pentagons Report on Saddams Documents which prove he had a working relationship with Al Qaeda.

Oh- and just last night- TQ got himself in a tight little corner when I challenged him on his BS use of the troops as both criminals and victims-

-Which of course is where you Harry Pooper- came blowing in here with all of your ridiculous Moon-bat conspiracy garbage (from the same wacko-sources as before) in a desperate attempt to spam-up this page in order to take the spotlight off of (yet another) beat-down of The Question.

So by all means spam away, dohbaugh........I can work through it.

And it just proves my point about you-

you're an unhinged wacko libtard who's obsessed with far-left fringe sites.........cookoo*...cookoo*...cookoo*

tee hee hee* "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 7:12 PM:

" More tidbits on John McBush:

Lets return, once again, to McCains flourishing flip-flop list, which is now a Top 11 list.

* McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as an agent of intolerance in 2002, but has since decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans deserved the 9/11 attacks. (Indeed, McCain has now hired Falwells debate coach.)

* McCain used to oppose Bushs tax cuts for the very wealthy, but he reversed course in February.

* In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending dirty money to help finance Bushs presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June, he abandoned his own legislation.

* McCain used to think that Grover Norquist was a crook and a corrupt shill for dictators. Then McCain got serious about running for president and began to reconcile with Norquist.

* McCain took a firm line in opposition to torture, and then caved to White House demands.

* McCain gave up on his signature policy issue, campaign-finance reform, and wont back the same provision he sponsored just a couple of years ago.

* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now hes pro-ethanol.

* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

* And now hes both for and against overturning Roe v. Wade.

Its not exactly a newsflash that McCain is veering ridiculously to the right in a rather shameless attempt to reinvent himself, but Dems should take advantage of the situation and help establish the narrative now. Despite his rather embarrassing record of late, we still have major media figures telling the public that no one would accuse McCain of equivocating on anything.

Now is the time to begin characterizing McCain accurately as a man with no principle beliefs. Dems should not only criticize McCains constantly evolving opinions on nearly everything, they should openly mock him for it now, so that the storyline becomes second nature (like the GOP did with serial exaggerator Al Gore).

Looks like one could call McBush a serial flip flopper. hee hee "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 4, 2008 7:16 PM:

" Oh and - here's one you libtatrds have been avoiding for several days now:

Bush was right, when he recently said about his conversation with the Iraqi Foreign Minister: "I emphasized to him how encouraged I was by the reductions in violence in Iraq."

And when Bush told the IFM that this administration will make sure that we continue with the progress thats been made in Iraq.

Bush is right about this- isn't he Harry Pooper?

Isn't he TQ?

Violence is down in Iraq- isn't it......go ahead libtards.....say it with me:

......."violence"....."is"....."down"...."in"....."Iraq"........

tee hee hee "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 8:12 PM:

" Another of Doh Doh's idols and fellow racist, Jessie Helms bites the dust today. Here's a cute little story about Doh's hero:

Helms gets into the Senate elevator with black colleague (and rival) Carol Moseley-Braun and begins singing "Dixie," telling another senator, "Im going to sing Dixie until she cries." Moseley-Brauns response: "Senator Helms, your singing would make me cry if you sang Rock of Ages. "

Sounds like Moseley-Braun showed the old racist curmudgeon who had class.

I have a feeling old Jessie is shoveling a lot of coal tonight.

Ah, you gotta love those Republican values. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 4, 2008 8:39 PM:

" For my friend who suffers from a major case of denial. LOL!

Major Media Spread Coverage Of Bush-Nazi Nexus
Thursday, 23 October 2003, 9:39 am
Column: Harvey Wasserman

Senator Byrd, Major Media Spread Coverage Of Bush-Nazi Nexus

by Harvey Wasserman & Bob Fitrakis - freepress.org
October 21, 2003
US Senator Robert Byrd, on the floor of Congress, on October 17, has explicitly compared the Bush media operation to that run by Herman Goering, mastermind of the Nazi putsch against the German people.

On the same day, the Associated Press ran a national story linking Prescott Bush to Adolf Hitler. The lead read: "President Bush's grandfather was a director of a bank seized by the federal government because of its ties to a German industrialist who helped bankroll Adolf Hitler's rise to power, government documents show."

That night, CNN ran a "streamer" on the bottom of its all-news programming confirming that "declassified documents show Prescott Bush connections to Nazi finance."

Stories reminding the public that the grandfather of George W. Bush and his United Trust Bank were cited by the US government in 1942 for helping Hitler under the Trading With the Enemies Act, have now spread widely through the major media.

Hmmmm... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 5, 2008 12:04 AM:

" For my friend Harry Pooper- who suffers from a major case of terminal stupidity. LOL

Here's a direct quote from Harry Poopers Associated Press article

"Fritz Thyssen was an early financial supporter of Hitler, whose Nazi party Thyssen believed was preferable to communism. *THE DOCUMENTS DO NOT SHOW ANY EVIDENCE BUSH DIRECTLY AIDED THAT EFFORT.* His position with Union Banking never was a political issue for Bush, who was elected to the Senate from Connecticut in 1952."

ROFLMAO!!!

Read it here folks: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1018-01.htm

It's even a libtard website! LOL!!!!!!

......What an idiot!....... "

The Question wrote on Jul 5, 2008 8:57 AM:

" Why don't you Republicans defend your ideal Republican president, Mr. Bush? You always used to tell us how he was a great leader who was smarter than all the smart guys, and was somebody everyone would love to have a beer with, despite the fact that he's an alcoholic.
Tell us how he'd have loved to have been able to demonstrate his great courage in combat in Vietnam, but they just wouldn't let him, darn it. Tell us how heroic he was as he sat paralyzed in a children's classroom when the U.S. was attacked, and when he flew around the country all that day in a panic, hiding. Tell us how every time his daddy's Saudi pals had to bail out one of his failed business ventures, it was always somebody else's fault. Tell us how the disaster caused by his stupid, immoral invasion and occupation of Iraq is always going to be somebody else's fault, too, Obama's now, maybe? Tell us how no American has to worry about Bush's secret police spying on them, just as long as they have nothing whatsoever they don't want other people to know. Tell us how he always says what he means and means what he says, even when he doesn't and even when no one can understand what he's saying because it's so astoundingly stupid. Tell us how God speaks through him.
Tell us again, please. Pretty please. I just love a good fairy tale. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 5, 2008 9:06 AM:

" Interesting article:

Prescott Bush's connection to the Hitler's Germany is a matter of public record. Last year, Miami reporter John Buchanan went to the National Archives in Washington and walked out with literally hundreds of documents linking Prescott Bush to financial dealings with the Nazis, both before and during World War II. This is fact. The National Archives do not make stuff up. The archivist who supplied Buchanan with the Bush-Nazi documents said he would stake his career on the veracity of the documents, and while Republicans whined like babies over Buchanan's three-part series in the New Hampshire Gazette, not a one of them disputed any of the charges raised in the series. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 5, 2008 9:17 AM:

" More tidbits on Prescott Bushes Nazi involvement:

It was during the course of Wallace's investigations into Edsel Ford's treachery that he also stumbled across one more revelation that has nothing to do with either Henry Ford or Charles Lindbergh but that, for me, almost overshadowed everything that had come before. In the Trading with the Enemy files, Wallace found documents detailing how the assets of five US companies - the Union Banking Corporation of New York, the Hamburg-Amerika Line, the Holland-American Trading Association, the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation and the Silesian-American Corporation - were seized for operating as fronts for 'enemy nationals' in 1942, 10 months after the United States entered the war. A government investigation concluded that the companies were laundering money for powerful Germany families like the steel-manufacturing Thyssens, funding pro-Nazi propaganda in Germany and the US, and smuggling agents through a network set up by German companies. The man who oversaw investments for all five companies was Prescott Bush, George W Bush's grandfather, utilising the connections of his father-in-law Bert Walker, who was described by a Justice Department investigator as "one of Hitler's most powerful financial supporters in the United States." Wallace concludes that "the bulk of Prescott Bush's financial empire was being operated on behalf of Nazi Germany" and includes the opinion of John Loftus, a Justice Department war crimes investigator who has investigated the Bush family's extensive Nazi connections, that "The Bush family fortune that helped put two members of the family in the White House can be traced directly to the Third Reich." Fortunately for Prescott Bush, his name was never linked to the scandal. After the war he joined the OSS, the precursor of the CIA, "in an effort to avoid potential government prosecution", and his son George abandoned plans to enter Yale and joined the army instead, hoping, as John Loftus put it, to "save the family's honor." By 1951, the entire episode appears to have been forgotten. The tainted assets of the Union Banking Corporation - a total of $1.5 million - were returned to the family without a murmur, and Herbert Bush went on to become a Senator, paving the way for the presidential aspirations of his son and grandson.

Hmmmm..... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 5, 2008 10:00 AM:

" More on the colorful history and life of Prescott Bush, grandfather to our current president, and political icon to Bush's number one supporter on this site:

Prescott Sheldon Bush -- Best known for serving in the US armed forces in Arizona during WWI spent defacing Geronimo's grave and grave-robbing the skull for his germanic secret piracy club "Skull and Bones Society" headquartered at Yale, University. [22] [23] [24] What he is not famous for was his financier banker support of Adolph Hitler, the Nazi Storm Troopers, Auschwitz and death camps. In his quest to get rich Prescott Bush collaborated with the Nazis before war broke out and through the year after Pearl Harbor.

Prescott Bush became Hitler's banker when he became Fritz Thyssen's banker. [25] [26] The incredible loot Fritz's father made in steel, coal, and railroads during WWI was hidden in Holland. Shortly afterwards he was looking to spread some in America and opened a front operation through E.R. Harriman in New York City. [27] [28], [29] In fact, reports indicate that the Bush connections to Nazi money continued through 1951. [30]

The reason Auschwitz was located where it was is because that is near where Fritz Thyssen's coal, steel, and railroads were. [31] [32] That made it possible for I.G. Farben to synthesize fuel from coal gasification for the war machine there, which made it also possible to synthesize rubber there. [33] [34] I.G. Farben also made Zyklon B gas, enough to annihilate two million people according to the trial testimony of the Auschwitz camp commander Rudolf Hoess. [35] [36] [37]

Fritz Thyssen published a book titled "I Paid Hitler" in 1941. It described how Thyssen sponsored the Storm Troopers of Ernst Roehm as early as 1933, allowing them to build up to 4,500,000 strong to take over Germany. But in 1942, even after Pearl Harbor, Prescott Bush and his father-in-law George Herbert Walker, were administering Thyssen's money until forced by the US government to halt (temporarily).

The Bush family got rich stealing everything these people had. It stole their children, stole their homes, stole their belongings, stole their clothes, stole their hair, stole their freedom, stole their government, stole their work, stole their health, stole their lives.

Is it any wonder the Bush family and their supporters are in total denial about the past of their infamous ancestor?

No wonder the old dizzy Dohnut is talking about tin foil hats and the like. I really can't blame him. If my political hero had a grandfather like that I would be denying it too.

Really, Doh, we understand..... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 5, 2008 1:09 PM:

" What Does It All Mean?

"The history of Prescott Bush and Brown Brothers Harriman is an introduction to the real history of our country", says L.A. Art Book publisher and historian Edward Boswell. "It exposes the money-making motives behind the US foreign policies, dating back a full century. The ability of Prescott Bush and the Harrimans to bury their checkered past, also reveals a collusion between Wall Street, the media and the government that exists to this day." "

Presidential Candidate wrote on Jul 5, 2008 1:59 PM:

" My Good Mr. Potter . . . Thank you for the list of McCain's policies. I cannot personally list them due to my stance against slinging mud but I CAN comment on others' lists.

Let's compare two candidates' platforms or histories or whatever you'd like to call them, shall we?
++++++++++++++++++++
* McCain criticized TV preacher Jerry Falwell as an agent of intolerance in 2002, but has since decided to cozy up to the man who said Americans deserved the 9/11 attacks. (Indeed, McCain has now hired Falwells debate coach.)

@ Presidential Candidate thinks Falwell was and is full of himself and doesn't speak for Christian America.
+++++++++++
* McCain used to oppose Bushs tax cuts for the very wealthy, but he reversed course in February.

@ Presidential Candidate is against tax cuts for the very wealthy simply because they're very wealthy. He is also against tax hikes for the very wealthy simply because they're very wealthy.

++++++++++++++++
* In 2000, McCain accused Texas businessmen Sam and Charles Wyly of being corrupt, spending dirty money to help finance Bushs presidential campaign. McCain not only filed a complaint against the Wylys for allegedly violating campaign finance law, he also lashed out at them publicly. In April, McCain reached out to the Wylys for support.

@ Presidential Candidate doesn't even KNOW the Wylys but if they're seen as "corrupt", PC doesn't WANT to know them.

++++++++++++++
* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June, he abandoned his own legislation.

@ Presidential Candidate thinks McCain's legislation has always been divisive and limiting to others who have political aspirations but aren't married to a wealthy heiress.

+++++++++++++
* McCain used to think that Grover Norquist was a crook and a corrupt shill for dictators. Then McCain got serious about running for president and began to reconcile with Norquist.

@ Presidential Candidate doesn't KNOW Grover Norquist and has given himself no need to reconcile with anyone at this time.

+++++++++++++++
* McCain took a firm line in opposition to torture, and then caved to White House demands.
@ Presidential Candidate doesn't like to use torture on anyone for any reason. He also isn't crazy about terrorist attacks, either but they happen.

+++++++++++++++++
* McCain gave up on his signature policy issue, campaign-finance reform, and wont back the same provision he sponsored just a couple of years ago.

@ Presidential Candidate has sponsored NO legislation that he will or needs to run from.

++++++++++++++++
* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

@ Presidential Candidate believes presidential candidates should be able to campaign anywhere they want to as long as they have been invited.

+++++++++++++++++++
* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now hes pro-ethanol.

@ Presidential Candidate has never been and until it's proven itself a viable alternative, never WILL be pro-ethanol.

++++++++++++++++++++
* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

@ Presidential Candidate thinks the word "state" means "state".

Conclusion:
Presidential Candidate has never flip-flopped on any of his stances, has never denounced people and then tried to get in bed with them nor backpedaled on an issue. Who can YOU trust????? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 5, 2008 7:12 PM:

" For the benefit of old Dohie Lamphier:

A BBC Radio 4 investigation sheds new light on a major subject that has received little historical attention, the conspiracy on behalf of a group of influential powerbrokers, led by Prescott Bush, to overthrow FDR and implement a fascist dictatorship in the U.S. based around the ideology of Mussolini and Hitler.

In 1933, Marine Corps Maj.-Gen. Smedley Butler was approached by a wealthy and secretive group of industrialists and bankers, including Prescott Bush the current President's grandfather, who asked him to command a 500,000 strong rogue army of veterans that would help stage a coup to topple then President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

According to the BBC, the plotters intended to impose a fascist takeover and "Adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression."

That old Prescott was quite a houndog, wasn't he? hee hee "

miltmart wrote on Jul 5, 2008 11:36 PM:

" BL, thanks for keeping up the good fight. Frankly, it's quite obvious that facts mean nothing to TQ/Harry Potter/et al. They are quite convinced that George Bush is the anti-Christ (oops sorry, I mentioned anything religious....heaven forbid) and will only be happy when he is out of office. Or maybe not. I have a feeling they/he/it wallow in their misery and obviously have no life except for the comuter. Sad. ******Oh, and don't remind them that Nancy Pelosi in January, 2007 blamed the "failed Bush policies" (always a favorite) for high gas prices and vowed that the Democrats, now having control of Congress would do something about that. Of course that was when gas was $3 a gallon but I'm quite sure that's still somehow Bush's fault in some little minds. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 6, 2008 6:35 AM:

" Editorial Reviews

Amazon.com
The perilous ramifications of the September 11 attacks on the United States are only now beginning to unfold. They will undoubtedly be felt for generations to come. This is one of many sad conclusions readers will draw from Craig Unger's exceptional book House of Bush House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties. As Unger claims in this incisive study, the seeds for the "Age of Terrorism" and September 11 were planted nearly 30 years ago in what, at the time, appeared to be savvy business transactions that subsequently translated into political currency and the union between the Saudi royal family and the extended political family of George H. W. Bush. On the surface, the claim may appear to be politically driven, but as Unger (a respected investigative journalist and editor) probes--with scores of documents and sources--the political tenor of the U.S. over the last 30 years, the Iran-Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, the birth of Al Qaeda, the dubious connection between members of the Saudi Royal family and the exportation of terror, and the personal fortunes amassed by the Bush family from companies such as Harken Energy and the Carlyle Group, he exposes the "brilliantly hidden agendas and purposefully murky corporate relationships" between these astonishingly powerful families. His evidence is persuasive and reveals a devastating story of Orwellian proportions, replete with political deception, shifting allegiances, and lethal global consequences. Unger begins his book with the remarkable story of the repatriation of 140 Saudis directly following the September 11 attacks. He ends where Richard A. Clarke begins, questioning the efficacy of the war in Iraq in the battle against terrorism. We are unquestionably facing a global security crisis unlike any before. President Bush insists that we will prevail, yet as Unger so effectively concludes, "Never before has an American president been so closely tied to a foreign power that harbors and supports our country's mortal enemies." --Silvana Tropea "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 6, 2008 10:05 AM:

" How ironic that most Christians embrace Bush, since he seems to have the characteristics and actions of the anti-Christ: convincing many that he is good, establishing totalitarianism and being popular and worshipped by those who end up deceived by him.

How true........ "

The Question wrote on Jul 6, 2008 10:51 AM:

" While corporate media swallows administration claims about how calm and peaceful Bush's surgy-wurgy Iraq is, here's what actually happened there on Friday alone:

Baghdad
- On Friday night a roadside bombed detonated near the Salama hospital in Yarmouk neighborhood (west Baghdad). Two people were killed and eight others were injured.
- Around 11 am a roadside bomb targeted a police patrol in Karrada neighborhood near Andalus intersection downtown Baghdad. Two people were injured including one policeman.
- Police found 3 dead bodies in Baghdad : 2 were found in west Baghdad (Karkh bank); 1 in Saidiyah and 1 in Washash. While 1 was found in Ameen in east Baghdad in Risafa bank.
Kirkuk
- In the morning a roadside bomb targeted an official of the patriotic united of Kurdistans convoy. No casualties reported.
Diyala
- On Friday evening gunmen planted a bomb near a house at Shuhdaa neighborhood in Jalwlaa (northeast Baquba). Six people from one family were injured when the bomb exploded (a wife, four daughters and a son).
Anbar
- At 10:55 am a roadside targeted Khalid Abu Mihahid a leader of the Islamic party in Falluja near the Islamic headquarter. He was injured with two of his guards." "

The Question wrote on Jul 6, 2008 1:14 PM:

" Why the U.S. so popular in the Mideast.
------
Afghan officials said fighter aircraft battling militants accidentally killed up to 27 Afghans walking to a wedding ceremony in eastern Afghanistan early Sunday, the second military attack in three days with reports of civilian deaths.
The U.S. military blamed the claims on militant propaganda and said its missiles only struck insurgents.
President Hamid Karzai had already ordered an investigation into allegations that missiles from U.S. helicopters struck civilians on Friday in eastern Afghanistan, though the Defense Ministry said Sunday that attack on the Nuristan-Kunar border killed or wounded 20 militants. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 6, 2008 1:31 PM:

" For some interesting viewing: check out YouTube on Prescott Bush.

Key: bush prescott nazi connecion into YouTube's search bar.

A few days ago this came up on a popular (The View) talk show. (check replay on YouTube)

The whole subject seems to be picking up steam.

In the future it may become more and more difficult for the Bush supporters, like Doh Doh, and other loyal Republican partisans to keep denying the reality of Prescott Bush's involvement with the Nazi government.

In order to keep Doh Doh from having a complete meltdown over the Nazi issue, I will be shifting to the plot to overthrow the federal government by Bush and his associates. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 6, 2008 2:15 PM:

" Document uncovers details of a planned coup in the USA in 1933 by a group of right-wing American businessmen

The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bushs Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression. "

The Question wrote on Jul 6, 2008 2:20 PM:

" After five years, hundreds of thousands of lives and $3 trillion or so, here's Bush's peaceful Iraq:
At least 15 people were killed across Iraq on Sunday, including six in a Baghdad car bombing, a day after Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said the capital had thwarted a siege by foreign-backed terrorists.
A car bomb targeting a police patrol exploded near a market in northeastern Baghdad's Shiite al-Shaab neighbourhood, killing at least six people and wounding 14, security officials said. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 6, 2008 5:00 PM:

" 1934: The Plot Against America
By Scott Horton

Im back from the land of heather and thistles, not to mention wee drams and lukewarm ale, but on my way out a friend at the BBC alerted me to this, a not-to-miss program on the BBC this morning, accessible over the next several days by internet. Its the story of the Plot Against America. I dont mean the Philip Roth novel, nor even the Sinclair Lewis book, It Cant Happen Here, but rather the historical events upon which these two works of fiction were based.

In November 1934, federal investigators uncovered an amazing plot involving some two dozen senior businessmen, a good many of them Wall Street financiers, to topple the government of the United States and install a fascist dictatorship. Roths novel is developed from several strands of this factual account; he assumed the plot is actually carried out, whereas in fact an alert FDR shut it down but stopped short of retaliatory measures against the plotters. A key element of the plot involved a retired prominent general who was to have raised a private army of 500,000 men from unemployed veterans and who blew the whistle when he learned more of what the plot entailed. The plot was heavily funded and well developed and had strong links with fascist forces abroad. A story in the New York Times and several other newspapers reported on it, and a special Congressional committee was created to conduct an investigation. The records of this committee were scrubbed and sealed away in the National Archives, where they have only recently been made available.

The Congressional committee kept the names of many of the participants under wraps and no criminal action was ever brought against them. But a few names have leaked out. And one is Prescott Bush, the grandfather of the incumbent president. Prescott Bush was of course deep into the business of the Hamburg-America Lines, and had tight relations throughout this period with the new Government that had come to power in Germany a year earlier under Chancellor Aldoph Hitler. It appears that Bush was to have formed a key liaison for the group with the new German government.

Hmmm...interesting! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 6, 2008 5:34 PM:

" Now come on TQ, you're poking holes in our delusional little buddy's story. He seems to think the war is over. LOL!

More proof that Doh is either a liar or is just plain stupid. I can't decide which. I think I will go with both.

It's OK Doh Doh, we'll just pretend that the mean old TQ really just made that stuff up, you know like everyone else makes stuff up about your hero and his ancestors and family, and wears tin foil hats.....LMAO at the dizzy Dohnut. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 6, 2008 6:47 PM:

" Looks like I have a whole lot of sources for my position, and about the best old screwhead can come up with talking about tin foil hats and the twilight zone. Very convincing, Doh Doh. In fact you have your self convinced now get to work convincing the rest of us. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 6, 2008 7:12 PM:

" Well....I guess I really did it this time....

It looks like I caused ole Harry (Chock-full-o'-nutz) Pooper- to go into full psychotic melt-down.

Go only knows how many sets of batteries his tin-foil hat burnt through this weekend......it boggles the imagination

pssssst......hey Harry buddy.....come here little cornflake.....

none of your sources on the Prescott/Nazi "conspiracy" (ooooooo- evil!) show any evidence that Prescott had anything to do with Fritz Tyssen's brief period of Nazi support.

I'll let YOUR Associated Press article make this point for me:

"Fritz Thyssen was an early financial supporter of Hitler, whose Nazi party Thyssen believed was preferable to communism. *THE DOCUMENTS DO NOT SHOW ANY EVIDENCE BUSH DIRECTLY AIDED THAT EFFORT.* His position with Union Banking never was a political issue for Bush, who was elected to the Senate from Connecticut in 1952."

Read it here folks: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1018-01.htm

It's even a libtard website.....tee hee hee...

ROFLMA........oooooooo......evil conspiracies.......ooooooooo.....Skulls....ooooooooo....and Crossbones........oooooooo...

LOL...........and your still an idiot....... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 6, 2008 7:17 PM:

" The Question- "While corporate media swallows administration claims about how calm and peaceful Bush's surgy-wurgy Iraq is, here's what actually happened there on Friday alone"
---------

So I take it you disagree with President Bush when he recently said about his conversation with the Iraqi Foreign Minister: "I emphasized to him how encouraged I was by the reductions in violence in Iraq."

Would you like to go on record here and disagree with that statement, TQ?

How about you Harry Chock-full-o'-nutz ? "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 6, 2008 7:27 PM:

" miltmart- "BL, thanks for keeping up the good fight. Frankly, it's quite obvious that facts mean nothing to TQ/Harry Potter/et al."
--------

Oh I know miltmart. I'm quite familiar with the libtard mindset.

If you look back over this thread- you'll see that I had backed The Question into a corner- and at that precise time-

Ole Harry Chock-full-o'-nutz came charging in with his corn-spiracies in a desperate attempt to spam the conversation away from yet another beatdown on TQ.........typical libtard tactic.......

Thanks miltmart- take care my friend and try not to breath in Harry's crazy-vapors.......lol..... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 6, 2008 10:52 PM:

" Hey uhm.....Question.....Harry Potter......fatherbob.......what are we to make of this story from this weekend:

SECRET U.S. MISSION HAULS URANIUM FROM IRAQ
LAST MAJOR STOCKPILE FROM SADDAM'S NUCLEAR EFFORTS ARRIVES IN CANADA

MSNBC Sat., July. 5, 2008 AP
"The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.

The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions.

What's now left is the final and complicated push to clean up the remaining radioactive debris at the former Tuwaitha nuclear complex about 12 miles south of Baghdad using teams that include Iraqi experts recently trained in the Chernobyl fallout zone in Ukraine."

----------

er.....a.......I thought Saddam didn't have any WMD stockpiles.........? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 7:07 AM:

" Ole Harry Chock-full-o'-nutz came charging in with his corn-spiracies in a desperate attempt to spam the conversation away from yet another beatdown on TQ.........typical libtard tactic.......

What the matter Doh Doh brain, don't like it when someone else, beside your self, spams up the place?

So, following your logic, would your spam habit make you a libtard? LOL! And how about those Prescott Bush bits? I know your enjoying them. "

father bob wrote on Jul 7, 2008 10:30 AM:

" ""Although the material cannot be used in its current form for a nuclear weapon or even a so-called dirty bomb, officials decided that in Iraqs unstable environment, it was important to make sure it did not fall into the wrong hands"""

you're correct "yellowcake", saddam had NO WMD's.....this stuff in barrels has been lying around for years. if you call this stuff a WMD, your.....well....ROFLMAO..

okay.....BL-Doh-Ed Miller....you're killing me!! "

The Question wrote on Jul 7, 2008 11:25 AM:

" What do you know, Doh Doh? The Iraqis want U.S. troops gone.
---------------
Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki has raised the prospect of setting a timetable for the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq, the BBC said.
Talks are continuing on a new security deal, but the US has said it opposes setting any timetable for withdrawal.
The UN mandate under which US troops stay in Iraq expires at the end 2008.
Correspondents say Mr Maliki may have an easier time getting the support of Iraqi MPs by proposing a deal which includes a withdrawal timetable.
---------
What do you say? Shall we continue the U.S. occupation against the Iraqis' wishes, and bomb and shoot a lot more of them to "liberate" them? "

The Question wrote on Jul 7, 2008 11:33 AM:

" More Bush-style "peace' and "success" in Iraq.
---------------
A female suicide bomber has killed nine people and wounded 12 others in an attack on an Iraqi market, police said.
The attack took place in the al-Mafraq area west of Baquba in Diyala province, about 50 km (30 miles) north-east of the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.
The use of women to carry out suicide bombings has become a regular tactic of al-Qaeda in Iraq.
The US military says there have been more than 20 suicide bombings by women this year in Iraq.
A BBC reporter in Baquba says women and children were among the casualties in Monday's attack. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 11:40 AM:

" The Whitehouse Coup Monday 23 July 2007

Document uncovers details of a planned coup in the USA in 1933 by right-wing American businessmen.

The coup was aimed at toppling President Franklin D Roosevelt with the help of half-a-million war veterans. The plotters, who were alleged to involve some of the most famous families in America, (owners of Heinz, Birds Eye, Goodtea, Maxwell Hse & George Bushs Grandfather, Prescott) believed that their country should adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression.

Mike Thomson investigates why so little is known about this biggest ever peacetime threat to American democracy.

Hmmmm.... "

The Question wrote on Jul 7, 2008 11:51 AM:

" Ahem.
-------
U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 4:43 PM:

" Really TQ, maybe it's time to lighten up a little on the Doh Doh bird. That last one will send him scurrying for more intel. LOL! "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 4:46 PM:

" According to Encarta Dictionary and Chambers Dictionary of Etymology, "dodo" comes from Portuguese doudo (currently doido) meaning "fool" or "crazy".

Sounds about right to me. LOL! "

father bob wrote on Jul 7, 2008 5:28 PM:

" Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 4:46 PM:
" According to Encarta Dictionary and Chambers Dictionary of Etymology, "dodo" comes from Portuguese doudo (currently doido) meaning "fool" or "crazy".

Sounds about right to me. LOL! """

good one harry....ol' Yellowcake's no where to be found i guess, probably had a sleepover at tommies. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 5:55 PM:

" Or maybe back in rehab or jail, fb. I don't think either one allows Internet access. But once he gets released or makes bail, he'll be back, regaling us with his wit and wisdom.

I do kind of like that: old Yellowcake's Doh Doh bird. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 6:06 PM:

" Posted for the ongoing educaction of my friend Doh Doh (yellowcake's) bird, enjoy:

BBC: Bush's Grandfather Planned Fascist Coup In America
New investigation sheds light on clique of powerbrokers, including Prescott Bush, who sought to overthrow U.S. government and implement Hitlerian policies Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Tuesday, July 24, 2007
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2...fascistcoup.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document.shtml
A BBC Radio 4 investigation sheds new light on a major subject that has received little historical attention, the conspiracy on behalf of a group of influential powerbrokers, led by Prescott Bush, to overthrow FDR and implement a fascist dictatorship in the U.S. based around the ideology of Mussolini and Hitler.

In 1933, Marine Corps Maj.-Gen. Smedley Butler was approached by a wealthy and secretive group of industrialists and bankers, including Prescott Bush the current President's grandfather, who asked him to command a 500,000 strong rogue army of veterans that would help stage a coup to topple then President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

According to the BBC, the plotters intended to impose a fascist takeover and "Adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression." The conspirators were operating under the umbrella of a front group called the American Liberty League, which included many families that are still household names today, including Heinz, Colgate, Birds Eye and General Motors.

Butler played along with the clique to determine who was involved but later blew the whistle and identified the ringleaders in testimony given to the House Committee on un-American Activities.

However, the Committee refused to even question any of the individuals named by Butler and his testimony was omitted from the record, leading to charges that they were involved in covering the matter up, and the majority of the media blackballed the story.

General Smedley Butler, author of the famous quote "war is a racket", exposed the fascist plotters but was subsequently demonized and shunned by the government and the media.

In 1936, William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, wrote a letter to President Roosevelt in which he stated,

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime.... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions."

The proven record of Prescott Bush's involvement in financing the Nazi war machine dovetails with the fact that he was part of a criminal cabal that actively sought to impose a fascist coup in America.

Prescott did not succeed but many would argue that two generations down the line the mission has all but been accomplished. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 7, 2008 6:24 PM:

" The Question- "U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said."
-------

Ah yes-

those bribed U.N. inspectors were really safe-guarding that uranium .....

now why did the U.N. leave this stockpile of uranium in Iraq, in the first place?

Why Question..........?

Ahem. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 7, 2008 6:28 PM:

" Ret@rd-Bob - "you're correct "yellowcake", saddam had NO WMD's.....this stuff in barrels has been lying around for years. if you call this stuff a WMD, your.....well....ROFLMAO.."
-------

Oh yeah SpeedBumpBob- this "stuff" was so harmless that weapons experts including "teams that include Iraqi experts recently trained in the Chernobyl fallout zone in Ukraine" were used to deal with it.

.....it looks like the mental ret@rdation of bob continues......it's so sad...... "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 6:32 PM:

" I knew it was too good to be true. LOL! "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 7, 2008 6:32 PM:

" And it looks like the melt-down of ole Harry Chock-Full-O'-Nutz is continuing.

Hey Nutzi- how many batteries has that super-duper tin-foil hat of yours burnt through, so far......?

......somebody get a net......Harry's on a loony rant

......cookoo*...cookoo*...cookoo*.....*

p.s. Let's hear some more about the Skull and Bones.......OOOOOOOOOOO SCARY!........... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 7, 2008 6:55 PM:

" whoa!

Ole Harry Chock-Full-O'-Nutz just took a swipe at The Question-

Scary Harry even refer to TQ as one of the "two morons".....!

It's all over at the McDonalds thread LOL!......!
----------

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 11:51 AM:

" Wanda, not everyone who posts on here is as insensitive as the two morons who made those comments. Ironically, they post preachy religious messages from time to time too. Their comments on this thread cast a serious doubt as to the sincerity of their faith." "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 7:12 PM:

" They found several pairs of Saddam's boxer shorts in the hut and, by the way, that is the closest we have come to finding weapons of mass destruction." David Letterman

That one was for old yellowcake's. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 7:18 PM:

" I realize that you get a little confused Doh Doh, but even someone as thick as you would realize who that post was meant for.

Again, do I have to spell everything out for you?

Slowdown a actually read what is being said. I'm getting tired of having to interpret everything for you. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 7:34 PM:

" How about that President Bush, he makes that surprise trip to Iraq. Was pretty impressive don't you think? He spent a few quick hours visiting with the troops, and then he left. You know, it was just like his days in the National Guard." --David Letterman "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 7, 2008 7:47 PM:

" January 5, 2008
WASHINGTON, DCIn his State of the Union address to the nation last night, President Bush announced a new cabinet-level position to coordinate all current and future scandals facing his party.

President Bush announces his plan to manage the numerous scandals of his administration.
"Tonight, by executive order, I am creating a permanent department with a vital mission: to ensure that the political scandals, underhanded dealings, and outright criminal activities of this administration are handled in a professional and orderly fashion," Bush said.

The centerpiece of Bush's plan is the Department Of Corruption, Bribery, And Incompetence, which will centralize duties now dispersed throughout the entire D.C.-area political establishment.

The Scandal Secretary will log all wiretaps and complaints of prisoner abuse, coordinate paid-propaganda efforts, eliminate redundant payoffs and bribes, oversee the appointment of unqualified political donors to head watchdog agencies, control all leaks and other high-level security breaches, and oversee the disappearance of Iraq reconstruction funds. He will also be responsible for issuing all official denials that laws have been broken.

"Many of the current scandals in Washington are crucial to the success of my priorities for the nation," Bush said. "The Department of Corruption will safeguard these important misdeeds."

White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card characterized the president's announcement as part of a larger effort to usher in a "new era of scandal management."

"The entire DCBI budget will come from private donors and investors, through an illegal slush fund," he said. "The money we'll save by eliminating redundancies and reducing scandal-related overhead will come back to citizens tenfold in the form of offshore corporate tax savings."

The Scandal Secretary will choose the elected official or business leader who will assume full responsibility for each scandal once it reaches fruition. His department will pen all tearful apologies and plea agreements and make all necessary arrangements for the designated scapegoat's transition to a think tank, consultancy, law-partner position, or, if unavoidable, cursory stint in a minimum-security prison. Scapegoats who cannot be placed will be given oversight positions within the Department of Corruption itself.

Candidates for Scandal Secretary, from left: Jack Abramoff, the Republican lobbyist at the center of a public corruption scandal; Scooter Libby, former vice presidential chief of staff indicted on five counts; Tom DeLay, former House majority leader charged with conspiracy to violate election laws; and Michael Brown, who resigned from FEMA over his criticized handling of Hurricane Katrina.
Congressional supporters of the post expressed hope that the new secretary will bring a sense of order and accountability to what has so far been a fragmented, inconsistent set of controversies.

"Every week, it feels like another new scandal breaks," said F. Tyler Jones, a convicted felon and Texas oil executive who has been cited as a leading candidate for a position within the new department. "Washington needs to run a tighter ship and get all this corruption in order. It should feel less like a weekly thing and more like once a month."

"Quality's been going down, too," Jones said. "You can't just slap 'gate' on the end of something and call it a scandal. We need higher standards in this countrywe used to lead the world, you know."

Many conservatives have criticized Bush's proposal, saying that it only creates more big government.

"Teapot Dome and the fraud scandals of the Grant Administration proceeded splendidly without government oversight," National Review columnist Jonah Goldberg said. "Officials received kickbacks and granted favors without any knowledge beyond their circle until after the fact. They knew what they were doing and didn't need any oversight. We need to return to the days when unfettered capitalism and enlightened self-interest led the way."

Bush defenders, however, said today's corruption scandals are far too complex to be allowed to take an unregulated course.

"We can't afford to have the American people lose faith in the government's ability to spearhead an effective scandal," TV commentator Sean Hannity said. "The sheer number of major scandals has gone way up in the past few yearsbut the level of scandal coordination has remained at Clinton-era levels. The system is obsolete. Plain and simple. I for one applaud Bush for bringing corruption management into the 21st century." "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 7, 2008 8:27 PM:

" Looks like Harry "Chock-Full-O'-Nutz" Pooper just installed those new ni-cad long lasting batteries in his tin-foil hat.

And he's off........(in more ways than one)...........cookcoo....cookoo....cookoo......... "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 7, 2008 8:28 PM:

" Hey, "Chock-Full-O'-Nutz" Pooper -

isn't it about time for you to bring out your FatHeadBob name again......? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 7:10 AM:

" Our delusional and unhinged friend, Bryan, practices the age old Fascist ploy that basically says if you tell a lie enough times people will begin to believe it. The same holds true with his ongoing denial of certain historical facts.

And by the way, Doh, I saw where those Wall Street conspirators who wanted to over throw FDR, attempted to paint the man, they wanted to lead the military in this coup, as being a little unbalanced. This was of course after he went to congress and spilled the beans on that bunch of traitors, which included your hero, Prescott Bush.

Now where have we seen than tactic used before?

One final question, old great one, when are you going to deny Prescott's involvement in the FDR coup, or was that whole thing just made up too? I guess all of the folks reporting the details, such as the History Channel, wear tin foil hats too, huh? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 7:33 AM:

" More tidbits on Prescott Bush:

Three sets of archives spell out Prescott Bush's involvement. All three are readily available, thanks to the efficient US archive system and a helpful and dedicated staff at both the Library of Congress in Washington and the National Archives at the University of Maryland.

Oh my, it looks like those folks at the Library of Congress and the University of Maryland wear tin foil hats too. LOL!

This is getting more interesting by the day.

The more you deny the reality of this story, the sillier you look, Doh.

I'll keep sharing more info and you keep up the denial, Doh Doh. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 7:52 AM:

" More.....

So, did Bush and his firm finance the Nazis and enable Germany to rearm? Indirectly, yes. But they had a lot of company. Some of the most distinguished names in American business had investments or subsidiaries in prewar Germany, including Standard Oil and General Motors. Critics have argued for years that without U.S. money, the Nazis could never have waged war. But American business has always invested in totalitarian regimes--witness our dealings with mainland China.

Are you keeping up, Bryant? "

father bob wrote on Jul 8, 2008 10:47 AM:

" NAJAF, Iraq (AFP) Iraq will reject any security pact with the United States unless it contains a specific timetable for the withdrawal of US-led foreign forces, the national security advisor said on Tuesday.

"We will not accept any memorandum of understanding if it does not give a specific date for a complete withdrawal of foreign troops," Muwaffaq al-Rubaie told reporters in the Shiite holy city of Najaf.

On Monday, Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki told Arab ambassadors in Abu Dhabi that he was seeking a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops as part of a security agreement with Washington.

It was the first time Baghdad's Shiite-led government has demanded such a schedule for a troop withdrawal. "

father bob wrote on Jul 8, 2008 10:52 AM:

" HEY Yellowcake.....good to see you back to you're old manufactured stories.

did you get any good tips from tommie at the sleepover?.....(no, i don't need to rephrase that) "

The Question wrote on Jul 8, 2008 1:03 PM:

" Today, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki suggested having a timetable for the withdrawal of coalition troops. "The direction we are taking is to have a memorandum of understanding either for the departure of the forces or to have a timetable for their withdrawal," Maliki's office quoted him as saying.
The State Department also hedged on whether the Bush administration would listen to Maliki. In a briefing today, spokesperson Sean McCormack said the remark may have been a transcription error:
McCORMACK: Well, that's really the part -- the point at which I would seek greater clarification in terms of remarks. I've seen the same press reports that you have, but I haven't yet had an opportunity to get greater clarify as to exactly to what Mr. Maliki was referring or if, in fact, that's an accurate reporting of what he said.
---------------
When all else fails for the Bush administration, thank goodness they always have lies to fall back on. "

The Question wrote on Jul 8, 2008 1:47 PM:

" And here's what happened in Bush's peaceful, surgy-wurgy Iraq on Monday:

Baghdad -
An adhesive IED on a civilian car exploded in Adhamiyah, northern Baghdad injuring four civilians.. The car belonged to a university teacher, Mohammmed Sadoun who had just left the car when it blew. He was not amongst the injured.

Diyala -
A female suicide bomber detonated inside a wedding dress store in al-Mafraq neighbourhood, central Baquba at 11 a.m. Monday. The explosion killed one woman and one man and wounded fourteen, mostly women and children.

One woman killed by unknown gunmen in al-Aheimir village, 10 km to the east of Baquba at 11.30 a.m.

Gunmen killed a member of the Sahwa Council, a U.S. backed militia, in al-Hashimiyah neighbourhood, western Baquba at around 10.30 a.m. Monday.

A roadside bomb targeted a woman in al-Aheimir village at 11.30 a.m.

A roadside bomb exploded killing two civilians in al-Mualimeen neighbourhood, western Baquba.

A roadside bomb targeted a civilian car on the route between Mendili and Neftekhana, Monday, killing four civilians from one family, injuring three others.

Nineveh -
Six mortar rounds targeted the Governorate building in Mosul. Only one hit the building injuring six civilians including two employees.

Salahuddin -
Gunmen killed one civilian and wounded another on the main route between Tikrit and Tuz Monday at noon. Victims were sheep traders; both were Shiite.

Kirkuk -
A roadside bomb exploded in front of the residence of Mayor of Sulaiman Bek, to the south of Kirkuk Monday morning critically injuring the Mayor and wounding other civilians in the vicinity.

Anbar -
A suicide car bomb targeted Sahwa Council offices, a U.S. backed militia, in Smeismiyah area, to the east of the town of Rawa during a meeting Sunday at noon injuring eleven Sahwa members, three of whom are critical.' "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 2:26 PM:

" This one was worth repeating....

Senator Byrd, Major Media Spread Coverage of Bush-Nazi Nexus
by Harvey Wasserman and Bob Fitrakis

US Senator Robert Byrd, on the floor of Congress, on October 17, has explicitly compared the Bush media operation to that run by Herman Goering, mastermind of the Nazi putsch against the German people.

On the same day, the Associated Press ran a national story linking Prescott Bush to Adolf Hitler. The lead read: "President Bush's grandfather was a director of a bank seized by the federal government because of its ties to a German industrialist who helped bankroll Adolf Hitler's rise to power, government documents show."

That night, CNN ran a "streamer" on the bottom of its all-news programming confirming that "declassified documents show Prescott Bush connections to Nazi finance."

Stories reminding the public that the grandfather of George W. Bush and his United Trust Bank were cited by the US government in 1942 for helping Hitler under the Trading With the Enemies Act, have now spread widely through the major meda.

What's going on here? Are these stories linking Team Bush to the Nazis irrelevant? Mere partisan politics? Or do they indicate a growing public concern with what is actually happening in Washington?

Coming on the floor of the US Senate, Byrd's searing critique indicates that the equation of Team Bush with the Nazi elite has gained a certain mainstream credibility. A conservative Democrat who has represented West Virginia in the Senate for decades, Byrd is one of America's leading Constitutional scholars. He is known as the master of Senate procedures. A passionate student of the English language, his epic orations for peace and the preservation of historic American freedoms are likely to grace school texts for decades to come.

That the cautious, thoughtful Byrd has conjured explicit comparisons between the infamous mass murderer Hermann Goering and the administration of George W. Bush is a stunning commentary on how far to the right the Republicans have really gone. Goering was convicted of crimes against humanity at the Nuremberg Nazi war crimes tribunal after World War II. He killed himself just before he was to be executed.

That the mainstream media has again found newsworthy the long-established connections between the Bush family and the Nazi Party is also instructive.

For sixty years it has been a matter of public record that Prescott Bush helped finance Hitler's rise to power and world war. Later a US Senator from Connecticut, Prescott was father to President George H.W. Bush and grandfather to George W. Bush. Because legal action was taken, Bush's deeds have been a matter of public record since 1942. They were widely covered in newspapers and electronic media at the time. The history is readily accessible.

But right-wing Bush fanatics continue to deny those ties existed. In a nationally syndicated radio show, conservative talk host Michael Medved recently claimed that Prescott Bush's bank's ties to the Nazis had not been established.

Mischael Medved apparently suffers from the same malady as Bryant L, as well as similar feminine mannerisms. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 2:31 PM:

" "Prescott Bush, the grandfather of the US president George W bush, during WW2 had financial links with the Nazis, thanks to whom he made his fortune as a banker.... Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder of the United Banking Corporation, which acquired from the Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the Consolidate Silesian Steel Corporation, where prisoners from Auschwitz worked. During the summer in 1942, this was reported in the American press and the US government examined the books of UBC. On the 20th of October, the government commenced action against the company under the trading with the enemy act (sic) which Franklin D. Roosevelt enacted a week after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941."

pretty interesting, huh? "

father bob wrote on Jul 8, 2008 3:50 PM:

" A senior government official with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has expressed great interest in a so-called safety bracelet that would serve as a stun device, similar to that of a police Taser. According to this promotional video found at the Lamperd Less Lethal website, the bracelet would be worn by all airline passengers.

This bracelet would:

* take the place of an airline boarding pass
* contain personal information about the traveler
* be able to monitor the whereabouts of each passenger and his/her luggage
* shock the wearer on command, completely immobilizing him/her for several minutes

The Electronic ID Bracelet, as its referred to as, would be worn by every traveler until they disembark the flight at their destination. Yes, you read that correctly. Every airline passenger would be tracked by a government-funded GPS, containing personal, private and confidential information, and that it would shock the customer worse than an electronic dog collar if he/she got out of line?

This makes RFID seem like childs play!

Are you scared yet? "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 4:33 PM:

" The more hysterical Bryant L (aka Doh) gets, the more I know the Prescott Bush stories are getting to him. Good, that's the idea. LOL! Now bring out that tin foil hat line, Doh Doh. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 5:15 PM:

" One day after President Bush likened presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama to those who appeased Adolph Hitler, the ghost of the president's grandfather, Prescott Bush - in an SS uniform, muttering German and gesticulating angrily - has been hovering high above the White House since dawn.

And, Doh Doh, just in case it went over your head and you go getting your little panties in a bunch, this was posted as a joke. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 8, 2008 5:31 PM:

" Teach your children: (Thanks to Jim Weil) A first grade teacher in the Midwestis explaining to her class that she is a Republican and how nice it is that a new Republican president has taken office. She asks her students to raise their hands if they, too, are Republicans and support George Bush. Everyone in class raises their hands except one little girl. "Mary," says the teacher with surprise, "why didn't you raise your hand?" Because I'm not a Republican," says Mary. "Well, what are you?" asks the teacher. "I'm a Democrat and proud of it," replies the little girl. The teacher cannot believe her ears. "My goodness, Mary, why are you a Democrat?" she asks. Well, my momma and papa are Democrats, so I'm a Democrat, too." "Well," says the teacher in an annoyed tone, "that's no reason for you to be a Democrat. You don't always have to be like your parents. What if your momma was a criminal and your papa was a criminal, too, what would you be then?" "Then," Mary smiled, "then we'd be Republicans." "

father bob wrote on Jul 8, 2008 5:33 PM:

" July 07, 2008
Voodoo economics redux
Posted by Mark Kleiman

In 2000, the Republican candidate for President, in the face of a federal budget in temporary surplus, proposed huge tax cuts and promised to keep the budget balanced with imaginary spending reductions. It was obvious at the time that his arithmetic didn't add up, but the press simply reported the question whether 2 + 2 = 22 as a "controversy" rather than as a case of flat-out lying.

$3 trillion in debt later, and in the face of a huge deficit even before the recession hits and not even counting the "emergency" $100 billion per year for Iraq, the Republican candidate for President proposes to extend those tax cuts, add a bunch of new tax cuts, increase the size of the military, and fill a $695 billion annual budget gap with $20 billion in savings, most of them from imaginary spending reductions. Have reporters learned their lesson?

No.

This is being reported as a "struggle" between "supply-siders" and "deficit hawks" in the McCain camp. McCain's comment that "In the long-term, the only way to keep the budget balanced is successful reform of the large spending pressures in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid" or, to put that in English, his threat to slash Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid spending gets no attention beyond a bland assertion that those programs have constituencies that make them hard to cut. But no one who gets paid to report this does the arithmetic Hilzoy does, showing that in order to close the budget gap and do all the other things McCain promises he'd have to cut Social Security payments by 95%.

If I were the Obama campaign, I would summarize the plan simply: "John McCain wants to cut taxes for rich people and corporations and pay for it by cutting Social Security and Medicare." And I'd keep repeating formula until the reporters, too lazy to report it as the truth, at least reported it as a "controversy."

Yes, Bush the Elder was grossly insulting the Voudoun religion when he called the Reagan version of this nonsense "voodoo economics." But he had a point.

Update John Roberts of CNN isn't having any, thanks.

Note to other reporters: Go thou and do likewise. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 9, 2008 7:37 AM:

" This one is for the sniveling little weasel, Doh, when he returns. hee hee

But while President Bush publicly embraced the community of holocaust survivors in Washington last spring, he and his family have been keeping a secret from them for over 50 years about Prescott Bush, the president's grandfather. According to classified documents from Dutch intelligence and US government archives, President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush made considerable profits off Auschwitz slave labor. In fact, President Bush himself is an heir to these profits from the holocaust which were placed in a blind trust in 1980 by his father, former president George Herbert Walker.

That one was just for you, Doh Doh bird. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 9, 2008 8:55 AM:

" It sounds like McCain would like for the senior citizens to pay for Bush's war, fb. You're right about the press probably giving McCain a pass on this one too, they need to hold his feet to the fire over this idea. But given his tendency to flip-flop, when cornered, I'm sure he would flip-flop on this one too. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 9, 2008 9:29 AM:

" Hey Dohbaugh........I really hate to do this to you, screwy-pants......

but all your Prescott/Nazi insanity can be summed up by YOUR VERY OWN article from the Associated Press:

"Fritz Thyssen was an early financial supporter of Hitler, whose Nazi party Thyssen believed was preferable to communism. *THE DOCUMENTS DO NOT SHOW ANY EVIDENCE BUSH DIRECTLY AIDED THAT EFFORT.* His position with Union Banking never was a political issue for Bush, who was elected to the Senate from Connecticut in 1952."

hee hee hee..............tin-foil hat alert..........tee hee hee..... "

father bob wrote on Jul 9, 2008 12:04 PM:

" KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.

Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety. VideoWatch why Hall says his lack of faith almost got him killed

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.

"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.

Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.

"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.

Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."

Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Weinstein has a different interpretation.

"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.

But Carr said the military's position is clear.

"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.

The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year. "

Bryant Lamphier wrote on Jul 9, 2008 12:41 PM:

" aaaaaand I think I'll show that again:

"Fritz Thyssen was an early financial supporter of Hitler, whose Nazi party Thyssen believed was preferable to communism. *THE DOCUMENTS DO NOT SHOW ANY EVIDENCE BUSH DIRECTLY AIDED THAT EFFORT.*" "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 9, 2008 1:02 PM:

" Oh good, he's back, I was afraid he was in was in jail. LOL! And hey, Doh, I much prefer the long winded protests over the Prescott Bush story. "

The Question wrote on Jul 9, 2008 1:27 PM:

" According to the Denver Post, the Bush administration has asked police officers, firefighters, paramedics and utility workers to act as terrorism liaison officers what you might otherwise call secret police to spy on American citizens and report any suspicious activity to secret databases.
And what is suspicious activity, you might wonder? A draft Justice Department memo says that such activities would include taking photos of no apparent aesthetic value or making notes.
The states where this is currently going on include Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Tennessee, Wisconsin, and Washington, D.C. and Illinois.
The article is here:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_9725077 "

Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jul 9, 2008 3:39 PM:

" About what father bob wrote on Jul 9, 2008 12:04 PM regarding Army Spc. Jeremy Hall . . .

This is very interesting and I regret this happened but your point is . . . . . . . . "

father bob wrote on Jul 10, 2008 12:32 PM:

" Mattooner at Heart wrote on Jul 9, 2008 3:39 PM:
" About what father bob wrote on Jul 9, 2008 12:04 PM regarding Army Spc. Jeremy Hall . . .

This is very interesting and I regret this happened but your point is . . . . . . . . """

the military should not be advocating christianity. "

father bob wrote on Jul 10, 2008 2:12 PM:

" In an interview with the Washington Times, McCain's top economic adviser Phil Gramm tells America to suck it up and stop complaining about the economy:

"You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession," he said, noting that growth has held up at about 1 percent despite all the publicity over losing jobs to India, China, illegal immigration, housing and credit problems and record oil prices. "We may have a recession; we haven't had one yet."

"We have sort of become a nation of whiners," he said. "You just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness, America in decline" despite a major export boom that is the primary reason that growth continues in the economy, he said.

Gramm, whose extensive ties to Enron proved problematic during the firm's implosion several years ago, was serving as a lobbyist for the international banking and subprime mortgage giant UBS until April. As Mother Jones documented, Gramm played a key role in the subprime meltdown during his time in the Senate.

Just yesterday, McCain himself said "I would imagine that we are" in a recession. But he and Gramm are still on the same page: in April McCain said "a lot of our problems today are psychological."

Update: Democratic National Committee spokesperson Karen Finney is already out with a statement:

What John McCain, George Bush Phil Gramm just don't understand is that the American people aren't whining about the state of the economy, they are suffering under the weight of it -- the weight of eight years of Bush-enomics that John McCain and Phil Gramm have vowed to continue. How dare John McCain and his advisers so callously dismiss the challenges the American people face. no wonder voters feel John McCain is out of touch, he and his campaign don't even understand the everyday issues Americans are dealing with. "

father bob wrote on Jul 10, 2008 2:41 PM:

" Most Americans dont know, or dont care that every electronic communication they have is now legally being monitored by the government. Allowing the government to read our emails is the modern-day equivalent of allowing the government to open our snail-mail. It used to be mail was sacrosanct and could not be opened without a warrant. Not any more.

Perhaps even more disconcerting it the message that if the President asks you to do an illegal act, you may do so with impunity. We now allow violation of the Constitution by proxy. Whats the extension? Blackwater. Torture. Murder. Maiming. Contracted out, and immunized from prosecution, immunized from civil liability. Think school-yard bullies with license to kill, and draw a 6-figure salary for the pleasure. Think about the stereotypical SS trooper from Nazi Germany. Are there people for which this kind of job would be very appealing? You bet. "

The Question wrote on Jul 10, 2008 3:46 PM:

" So Phil Gramm thinks Bush's economic disaster is merely "mental."
That's right. Reality isn't reality. Only right-wing propaganda is reality. Republicans think there's no problem that cannot be disguised with the correctly worded set of lies.
Marketing has long since replaced journalism, and consumers have replaced citizens. It's not a republic any longer. It's an overpriced national mall with a lot of shoddy goods, and it's on fire.
But the Republicans have put out a press release saying it isn't, so everything's okay. "

father bob wrote on Jul 10, 2008 5:02 PM:

" sure makes me proud to be an american...

Jason Linkins

President Bush concluded his final G8 Summit today. Here's his parting shot:

"Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter!"

I am not making this up! And the Telegraph reports: "He then punched the air while grinning widely, as the rest of those present including Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy looked on in shock."

Oy. Remember how earlier today Rudy Giuliani said that the Europeans hearted Barack Obama because he fuels their anti-American sentiment with all his insistence that American's learn other languages? And I said, "Know what's really reinforced feelings of anti-Americanism? President Bush and his policies!" Well, thanks for making my point for me, Mr. President. Though I needn't have waited until this morning, because the G8 Summit has historically been a venue where Bush has had great success making the other plutocrats in the G8 laugh at us. "

father bob wrote on Jul 10, 2008 5:10 PM:

" http://tinyurl.com/54vc8m "

The Question wrote on Jul 11, 2008 11:11 AM:

" Turns out the Red Cross has identified members of the Bush administration as torturers and war criminals.
---------------
Red Cross investigators concluded last year in a secret report that the Central Intelligence Agency's interrogation methods for high-level Qaeda prisoners constituted torture and could make the Bush administration officials who approved them guilty of war crimes, according to a new book on counterterrorism efforts since 2001.
The book says that the International Committee of the Red Cross declared in the report, given to the C.I.A. last year, that the methods used on Abu Zubaydah, the first major Qaeda figure the United States captured, were "categorically" torture, which is illegal under both American and international law.
The book, "The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals," by Jane Mayer, who writes about counterterrorism for The New Yorker, offers new details of the agency's secret detention program. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 11, 2008 11:54 AM:

" And the Red Cross haven't even seen the ones they have hidden floating around on ship prison ships, TQ. I have a feeling the world will be shocked when the realize the extent of the evil acts perpetrated on mankind by the Bush/Cheney duo. "

The Question wrote on Jul 11, 2008 12:02 PM:

" Way to win those hearts and minds, USA!
------------
A U.S. coalition force air strike on Sunday killed 47 civilians, including 39 women and children, in the eastern province of Nangarhar, an Afghan official said on Friday.
The issue of civilian casualties is an emotive one in Afghanistan, feeding a common perception international forces do not take enough care when launching air strikes, and undermining support for their continued presence in the country. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 11, 2008 2:56 PM:

" American Dynasty-Some tidbits concerning America's first family.

For more than a half century, members of the Bush family have been setting policy and making decisions for all Americans. Let's look at the family that has had such an impact on the lives of human beings worldwide.

It all started with Prescott Bush, George W. Bush's grandfather. In 1918 it is said that he robbed the grave and stole the skull of the Native American warrior Geronimo as part of an initiation into Yale's Skull and Bones Society. The Skull and Bones society has long been important to the Bush Family. George Bush Sr. and George W. Bush were also members of this secret society.

Prescott Bush had a bit of trouble back in the 1940s. While American soldiers were fighting the Nazis in WWII, a few of the companies Prescott managed were seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act because they were fronts for Nazi Industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a financier of Hitler's Third Reich. (but according to Bryant Lamphier, old Prescott was innocent-I guess he wasn't aware of his partners activities LOL!)

GW's Uncle Prescott Jr: During the embargo on China, his company was the only US firm allowed to do business there, exporting communications satellites.
He recently retired as the Chairman of the USA-China Chamber of Commerce, which might be one reason China isn't part of the Axis of Evil. He also has ties to Manuel Noriega.

For many years, the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs (now DEA) wanted to have Manuel Noriega arrested for drug trafficking, but instead George Bush, Sr. kept him on the CIA payroll. For more than a decade, thousands of tons of cocaine poured onto the streets of America through the Panama Canal while the US government looked the other way. This destroyed the stability of millions of American families, and the repercussions to our society are still being felt today.

George W. was in the National Guard, which he joined to get out of going to Vietnam. He was a pilot in Texas until his flight status was revoked for refusing to take medical exams. (which included a drug test) For at least eight months, he didn't even show up for duty.

Son Jeb Bush partied with known terrorists.
One was accused of blowing up an airplane killing 76 people in Cuba, but George Bush, Sr. thought so much of him that he gave him a Presidential Pardon.

Jeb's wife was embarrassed after she got caught smuggling almost $20,000 worth of clothes and jewelery into America after a trip to France.

Then there is Neil. He cost American taxpayers $1 billion after some shady loans he made caused the Silverado Savings and Loan to go under in 1988. Now he's making millions selling software to Florida schools. Now he's divorcing his wife and leaving her broke, after he had several affairs and contracted a venereal disease.

Coincidentally, Neil was scheduled to have dinner with John Huntley's brother the day after the Reagan Assassination attempt.

When George Bush, Sr. was the Vice President, he was involved in secretly selling weapons to our enemy Iran. The money from the weapons sales went to build a secret army that was trying to overthrow the Nicaraguan government. This resulted in years of violence and slaughter for many thousands of Central Americans, and it allowed thousands of tons of drugs to be dumped on the streets of America. When he was president, George Bush, Sr. gave a presidential pardon to the others who were involved in the Iran-Contra scandal.

Besides their last names, George W and Jeb Bush have this in common: All of their children have been in trouble with the law. Unlike most Americans who commit crimes ranging from sexual misconduct to felony prescription fraud, the Bush Kids never go to prison.

It appears that the tin-foil-hatters must have gotten into the police departments and forged phony papers relating to all of the arrests involving the Bush kids too. That would be quite a feat too, considering how many police departments were involved.

There you have it folks, another bit of Bush education. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 11, 2008 3:01 PM:

" Oh, those Bushes and their family values.

NY TIMES - John P. Higgins Jr., the inspector general, said he would review the matter after a group, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, detailed at least $1 million in spending from the No Child Left Behind program by school districts in Texas, Florida and Nevada to buy products made by Mr. Bush's company, Ignite Learning of Austin, Tex. Mr. Higgins stated his plans in a letter to the group sent last week.

Members of the group and other critics in Texas contend that school districts are buying Ignite's signature product, the Curriculum on Wheels, because of political considerations. The product, they said, does not meet standards for financing under the No Child Left Behind Act, which allocates federal money to help students raise their achievement levels, particularly in elementary school reading.

Ignite, founded by Neil Bush in 1999, includes as investors his parents, former President George H. W. Bush and his wife, Barbara. Company officials say that about 100 school districts use the Curriculum on Wheels, known as the Cow, which is a portable classroom with software to teach middle-school social studies, science and math. The units cost about $3,800 each and require about $1,000 a year in maintenance. . .

The citizens' group obtained documents through a Freedom of Information Act request showing that the Katy Independent School District west of Houston used $250,000 in state and federal Hurricane Katrina relief money last year to buy the Curriculum on Wheels. "

Harry Potter wrote on Jul 11, 2008 3:14 PM:

" Here's a good one I ran across.

One of the big reasons why Bush's numbers are going lower and lower is that the last remaining reasonable justification for the war disappeared with those tortures and humiliations. There were no WMDs, no nuclear weapons, no imminent threat, no Iraq ties to Al Qaida -- the only claim the Americans still had was that it had toppled a brutal dictator and the cruel regime he ran, one rife with torture and death of prisoners in his care. Now, thanks to the reports and photos and videos, it turns out that prisoners in U.S. care were tortured, humiliated, sexually abused and, in some cases, even killed. There goes the last piece of moral high ground.

The whole issue of our military's treatment of prisoners, puts Bush and Cheney on a level with Saddam Hussein. "