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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Tuesday, April 15, 2008 9:51 PM CDT
LETTER: Illinois should pass concealed carry law

By JACK PIERCE, Charleston

The morning paper indicates that, not unlike Jesse Jackson bringing his own demonstrators to Decatur some months ago, our governor brought his own Chicago lobbyists to Springfield to pass a bill limiting the purchase of handguns to one a month for Illinois residents. For whatever good that would do? A bit ironic, because handguns are illegal in Chicago anyway. Wiser downstate heads prevailed, and the bill did not pass, at least not this time.

The illegal purchase of a handgun on certain street corners in Chicago is likely just as easy as buying drugs. Which is to say, as simple as falling off a log. It is disingenuous to equate down state with metropolitan Chicago.

We in central and southern Illinois are not on the same cultural page with that city. When all is said and done, it is the mental attitude of a small dysfunctional family of criminals living in the cities of Illinois, having no intention of obeying any law, that are pulling the trigger of those guns.

If one is so criminally inclined as to murder a large number of people, it is likely they would prefer their victims to be disarmed.

So, where better to carry out that grisly business than in schools and other such institutions where guns are completely prohibited?

Far better, that like the majority of states, Illinois should pass a concealed carry law, making criminals think twice before committing their dastardly acts, never knowing for certain if their victims might themselves be carrying a defensive weapon.

Sanity not being a virtue of Chicago politicians, that is unlikely to happen.

JACK PIERCE

Charleston

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Early Bird wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:23 AM:

" And just when you think it's safe to go back in the water. I'll bet ole Jack would like to see the teachers packing a little iron too. I wonder if RAK will have any thoughts on this subject? LOL "

Jon Vanatta wrote on Apr 16, 2008 8:32 AM:

" Two of Jack's very good statements that are worth repeating:
"If one is so criminally inclined as to murder a large number of people, it is likely they would prefer their victims to be disarmed."
and
"Sanity not being a virtue of Chicago politicians, a concealed carry law is unlikely to happen."
"

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 8:58 AM:

" Oh brother......... "

sapient wrote on Apr 16, 2008 9:05 AM:

" Good job Jack. I agree wholeheartedly. Some think that getting rid of guns will keep the bad guys from getting them. Duh. Look at DC. They have the most restrictive gun laws and the highest crime rate. Statistics show that when the people are allowed to arm themselves the crime rate goes down, but some radical liberal types don't want to look at reality when they have their agenda to promote. "

The Question wrote on Apr 16, 2008 9:06 AM:

" Then, when those bad guys come, you'll whip out your automatic and go Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Wheee! What fun!!! "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 16, 2008 11:00 AM:

" Wow, TQ just slipped four four-letter (crime-fighting) words past the monitor (Bang, bang, bang, bang). Congrats! LOL. // I agree with Jack, of course. It's a shame he even has to write this letter. Our second amendment rights should be presumed in all gun laws, not the other way around. If Superman was real, and if he really could stop a speeding bullet with his bare hands, Metropolis may not need to arm its citizens - but the cold hard fact is Superman (and Lois Lane, for that matter) are not real people. Come on, Question, you know that, don't you? "

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:04 PM:

" sapient wrote on Apr 16, 2008 9:05 AM Statistics show that when the people are allowed to arm themselves the crime rate goes down"""

and the rate of violent crime goes up. it's a catch 22 with a large number of "good hardworking citizens" being convicted of murder because they actually look for someone to shoot.

be careful of what you wish for. "

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:06 PM:

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Apr 16, 2008 8:32 AM:
" Two of Jack's very good statements that are worth repeating:
"If one is so criminally inclined as to murder a large number of people, it is likely they would prefer their victims to be disarmed."
and
"Sanity not being a virtue of Chicago politicians, a concealed carry law is unlikely to happen."
"

clinging to guns and religion Jon? "

RAK wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:30 PM:

" And the usual ad hominem attacks, non-sequiturs, and insults by those who are ignorant of the facts. Why could that possibly be? Is it because it's all they have left? Will they present any evidence to support their attacks or will they continue to throw out sophmoric remarks? "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:47 PM:

" Now I ask you, would any sane person really want someone like Bryant L walking around with a loaded weapon? That one example is enough to scare the heck out of any normal person. "

The Question wrote on Apr 16, 2008 1:54 PM:

" Will they present any evidence to support their attacks or will they continue to throw out sophmoric remarks?
----
Oh, you're right. What on earth were we thinking? Mattoon and Charleston would be so much more exciting if we had pitched gun battles on the street after the bars let out at night. "

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 2:15 PM:

" RAK wrote on Apr 16, 2008 12:30 PM:
" And the usual ad hominem attacks, non-sequiturs, and insults by those who are ignorant of the facts."""

LOL!!.....dream away "

sapient wrote on Apr 16, 2008 4:16 PM:

" TQ and FB, your left wing rantings don't jibe with the facts. But then that doesn't matter to those of your ilk. Are you saying that the states that have concealed carry have wild west type gun fights in the street? Incredible!!! "

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:06 PM:

" sapient wrote on Apr 16, 2008 4:16 PM:
" TQ and FB, your left wing rantings don't jibe with the facts. But then that doesn't matter to those of your ilk. Are you saying that the states that have concealed carry have wild west type gun fights in the street? Incredible!!! "

no it's usually in a public parking lot, or after work, or at a bar...like i say i hope you get what you hope for. makes me feel better knowing my daughter's jealous boyfriend has a gun on him. "

RAK wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:25 PM:

" Thank you FB and TQ for proving me right once again.

So Question: Can you provide an instance of "pitched gun battles" by CCW holders in ANY of the other 48 states that have it? can you or FB show evidence of any of your other hysterical "what if's"?

I'll wait. I'm sure I'll keep waiting as you throw out even more insults. I expect nothing more. "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:31 PM:

" Funny how the resident right wingers always seem to want to call some one else's posts rantings, that is when they disagree with them. Our friend sapient ignores the combination of cut and paste and non stop blathering of one poster called Bryant L. I guess because they coincide with his archaic views, they're not rants. LOL "

father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:31 PM:

" Today, as President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA), I announced our endorsement of Senator Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. Because the gun issue has recently become a factor in the Democratic primary in Pennsylvania, I want to share the remarks I made today:

As a gun rights organization we have not come to this decision lightly. We were formed two years ago because our research shows that millions of gun owners wanted a change. They not only wanted an organization that would protect their gun rights but an organization that was also committed to the protection of their communities as well as the protection of our lands.

We reached out to the Obama campaign several weeks ago to offer our support and approval as was reported by Paul Bedard of US News and World Report.

We believe recent attacks on Senator Obama's stand on the 2nd Amendment and his commitment to our hunting and shooting heritage are unfair and American Hunters and Shooters Association is stepping up to set the record straight.

Senator Obama has clearly demonstrated his commitment to the 2nd Amendment by his vote in support of the Vitter amendment to HR 5441, the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations bill of 2007. This amendment prevents the Government from confiscating guns in a time of crisis or emergency.

Imagine how the citizens felt during Hurricane Katrina when government agents kicked in doors to confiscate law abiding citizens' guns at a time when they needed them the most. We know Senator Obama "gets it." To say that he is an elitist is patently ridiculous.

To hunters and shooters everywhere, Senator Obama's vote demonstrated a fundamental understanding of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment which means he recognizes the individual right of all citizens to keep and bear arms. Senator Clinton, on the hand, failed to grasp the importance of this critical issue to hunters and shooters and voted against this Amendment. She turned her back on America's gun owners.

In addition, Senator Obama's commitment to conservation and protection of our natural resources and access to public lands demonstrates to us his commitment to America's hunting and shooting heritage.

Senator Obama will be a strong and authentic voice for America's hunters and shooters and it is with great pleasure that we endorse his candidacy. "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 16, 2008 6:08 PM:

" Here’s a funny one I picked up off the internet today. Doctors vs Gunowners.
Doctors: (a) the number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000; (b) accidental deaths caused by physicians per year, 120,000; (c) accidental deaths per physician = 0.171. Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now think about this. Guns: (a) the number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. Yes, that's 80 million! (b) the number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, 1,500.
(c) the number of accidental deaths per gun owner = .000188. Statistics courtesy of FBI.

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, 'Guns don't kill people, doctors do.'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Out of concern for the public at large, I withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

"

lefty wrote on Apr 16, 2008 8:37 PM:

" Im totally for gun-ownership. Why should the Mattoon cops be allowed to get fancy schmancy high powered military grade rifles (as if they really know how to use em or have a legit use for em) yet we are denied that right? "

ed miller wrote on Apr 16, 2008 11:00 PM:

" Gee Father Bob, I never knew you were President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA). I guess your endorsement carries a lot of weight then. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:37 AM:

" According to police sources cited by the Seattle Times, 30-year-old Naveed Afzal Haq--accused of opening fire with two pistols last Friday at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle killing one woman and wounding five others--had been issued a license to carry a concealed handgun despite his history of mental illness and a charge of lewd conduct pending against him. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:44 AM:

" Murder—Pinehurst, Texas
On May 19, 1997, concealed handgun license holder Daniel Meehan of Pinehurst, Texas, was arrested for the shooting death of Selma Pieruccini, who had been living with him. According to reports in the Orange Leader, Pieruccini was found dead in her home from a 9mm gunshot wound. According to the Beaumont Enterprise, Meehan originally reported the shooting as a suicide, but autopsy reports showed Pieruccini had been shot in the back from a range of less than two feet. Meehan had reportedly consumed approximately 16 beers the night of the murder. Meehan was convicted of murder in February 1998 and was sentenced to 99 years in prison. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:44 AM:

" Attempted Capital Murder—Houston, Texas
On May 15, 1996, concealed handgun license holder Francisco Santos-Rojo was arrested for attempted capital murder in connection with the robbery-slaying of diamond broker Janos Szuc in Szuc's southwest Houston office on January 24, 1996. Houston police report that Santos-Rojo allegedly paid off a cleaning woman for security access into Szuc's office building and waited outside in a getaway car during the incident. According to the Houston Chronicle, brothers Alberto and Reinaldo Dennes allegedly shot and wounded a security guard in Szuc's building with a 9mm pistol fitted with a silencer, shot and killed Szuc, and then stole $3.6 million in diamonds from Szuc's office safe before driving off with Santos-Rojo. The Dennes brothers were arrested and charged with capital murder in late February 1996, and Santos-Rojo was arrested in May. According to the Texas DPS, Santos-Rojo was indicted for capital murder, his charge was subsequently reduced, he was convicted of robbery, and sentenced to 10 years in prison. "

Early Bird wrote on Apr 17, 2008 6:45 AM:

" The question of the hour is, will RAK comment on ed millers's response to fb. LOL...what about it RAK, wasn't that merely an insult? Or is it only an insult if it comes from someone you disagree with? "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 17, 2008 7:24 AM:

" Hey, Question, can we say 'cold case'? Can't come up with anything more current than 96-97? Must be a slow day in the embittered gun-toting Bible-thumping anti-immigrant news department. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 7:52 AM:

" Oh, I'm not through, Tommy. I've got lots and lots of examples of concealed carry gun nuts who used their hidden weapons to commit crimes. That's what you guys asked for, wasn't it? Well, I'm giving it to.
-----
Aggravated Kidnapping—Seguin, Texas
On April 28, 1997, concealed handgun license holder Diane James was arrested by Seguin, Texas police in the aggravated kidnapping of a young woman. According to the San Antonio Express-News, Diane James and her husband David abducted a San Antonio woman in her 30s off the street as she walked home. According to police reports the woman was assaulted with a stun gun, pulled into the James' van, and then taken to their home where she was kept naked and in chains. The woman reportedly told police that David James told her she was going to be "trained" as a sex slave. The woman escaped the next morning and ran to a neighbor's home. David James—armed with an AR-15 assault rifle—followed the woman to the neighbor's home. When the police arrived at the scene a shootout ensued in which David James was killed. Diane James was convicted of aggravated kidnapping on November 21, 1997 and was sentenced to 15 years in the Texas Department of Criminal Justice Penitentiary.
"

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 9:39 AM:

" And I have hundreds of thousands of examples of people NOT committing any crimes w/ CCW and statistics from numerous state agencies showing that CCW holders commit ANY crime at exponentially less levels than "regular folks".

Of course TQ thinks that CCW "causes" these things to happen.

Shall we play the 'anecdote game"?
Daily Press, Newport News, VA, 07/15/06

Morris Brown had just dropped off a friend at an apartment when two men stopped him and asked for drugs, said police. When Brown replied that he had no drugs, the men announced they were robbing him. A third man approached from behind and grabbed Brown while the other two started beating him. The men stole Brown's keys, cell phone and wallet and started to walk away. Brown probably would have let them have his property in exchange for his life, but then the man who had approached Brown from behind pointed a handgun at him. Brown, who has a concealed-carry permit, drew his pistol and shot two of his assailants. One man died at the hospital. The man who pointed a gun at Brown fled the scene when the shooting started. It was unclear if he was injured.
"

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 9:43 AM:

" AHSA: Wolf in Sheeps clothing.

Paul Helmke , the President of the Brady Campaign, says of the AHSA, "I see our issues as complementary to theirs"

Yep. A true "sportsmens" organization. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 9:44 AM:

" EarlyBird:

Are you going to respond to my questions or are you just going to drag red herrings across the board some more? Can you? "

father bob wrote on Apr 17, 2008 10:19 AM:

" ed miller wrote on Apr 16, 2008 11:00 PM:
" Gee Father Bob, I never knew you were President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA). I guess your endorsement carries a lot of weight then. "

glad you got the point ed. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 11:39 AM:

" Four years have passed since the first applicants obtained licenses to carry concealed handguns in Ohio.
The passage of the bill four years ago had some law enforcement officials skeptical of what might happen once the licenses were issued.
Ravenna Police Chief Randy McCoy said at the time he didn't think allowing citizens to walk around armed was a good idea.
On Feb. 22, he admitted the Ravenna police have not had any major issues.
Kaley said about 1,550 CCW licenses have been issued in Portage County since April 2004. Of those, he said, only five have been revoked and eight applicants denied after completion of a background check. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 11:45 AM:

" Let's do play.
-----------
Driving While Intoxicated—Cleveland, Texas
On March 8, 1996, concealed handgun license holder Thomas Earl Richardson was arrested by the Cleveland, Texas, police department for driving while intoxicated and unlawfully carrying a handgun by a license holder. The officer who filed the report noted that "the ‘92 Toyota came close to hitting the concrete wall on the right side of the highway three times and the vehicle crossed the left center lane four times." The reporting officer also noted that he had to pull a stumbling Mr. Richardson away from oncoming traffic as he exited his car: "Due to Richardson's demeanor, poor balance, and inability to walk without going sideways, this officer felt that it would be safest to take Richardson into custody and placed him in the patrol car before he got hit by oncoming traffic." The officer found a loaded Colt .45 pistol and two extra loaded clips in Mr. Richardson's car. The reporting officer noted that the Intoxilyzer revealed that Mr. Richardson's alcohol level was nearly twice the legal limit. Mr. Richardson plead guilty to the driving while intoxicated charge. He received one year probation, a $400 fine, and $232 in court costs. His driver's license was probated for 90 days. The charge for unlawfully carrying a handgun was dropped.
"

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 17, 2008 12:37 PM:

" TQ says "Oh, I'm not through, Tommy." Yeah, you are. Now, where's that fork? Ah, there it is. You're done. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 12:40 PM:

" Drunks, lunatics and hotheads with concealed-carry permits, ready to murder, rape or kidnap just as the mood strikes, but of course that's not a problem to the gun nuts. That's not "evidence." That's just "anecdotal."
People are not being shot on the streets of Coles County now, so, to solve a problem that does not exist, you propose having a bunch of guys walking around with firearms hidden on their persons.
You see how irrational you guys are? That's because your devotion to this idea has nothing to do with reason. It springs from the shoot-em-up fantasies of 50-year-old arrested adolescents. I wouldn't mind that, but I'm afraid you can't be permitted to make dangerous public policy based on your Hollywood delusions. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 2:35 PM:

" Unintentional Shooting—Austin, Texas
On March 23, 1996, Austin police were dispatched to a shooting call after concealed handgun license holder Harry Hart was reported to have unintentionally shot himself in the foot at the Thrift Town discount store in Austin. In the police description of the incident, the reporting officer noted, "Harry advised that he was in the rear of the store in the book area. He had gotten a book and was sitting down on the bench. He had in the rear of his pants in his lower back area a loaded Springfield Armory model 1911-A1 .45 semi-automatic [pistol]....As Harry sat down the weapon was uncomfortable in his back/buttocks area. As Harry attempted to adjust the weapon it fired one round. The hammer on the weapon was cocked and locked and there is a safety on the hand grip. The round exited the holster, Harry's blue jeans, went through the bench and into Harry's right foot. There was no exit wound in Harry's right foot....Harry holds a valid concealed handgun license...." Four days later the reporting officer wrote, "I informed him [Harry Hart] that we would not be pursuing charges, but I encouraged him to seek safe ways to carry his weapon. I did not find anything in the new gun laws involving licensed permit holders involved in accidental shootings. I also contacted Diane Lawson, the person who instructed his gun class to let her know what happened, and ask that she stress safety in carrying weapons."
-------------
Sorry, my mistake. I should have said, "Drunks, lunatics, hotheads and morons." "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 2:35 PM:

" Alright. So far I've got you 1551 to 5. And that's just one county Your so "rational" you think that a CCW permit causes people to commit crimes. None of your anecdotes had anything to do w/ CCW. Only people who happened to have them that committed crimes. All of which are also over 10 years old. You continue to resort to ad hominems and insults to support your ideology. None of your anecdotes had anything to do w/ CCW. Only people who happened to have them that committed crimes.

The Topeka Capital Journal, Topeka, KS, 01/23/07
Kansas' concealed carry law took effect January 1, 2007. On January 19, two armed men burst into a gas station owned by Dean Yee. According to police, they twice demanded money from Yee while holding him at gunpoint. A customer inside the store, however, had a concealed-carry permit. He shouted for the robbers to drop their weapons. When they refused, he shot one suspect before the other fled. Station owner Yee feels lucky to be alive. "I would have been shot in the chest," he told 27 News. Kansas Sen. Phil Journey, (R-Haysville) added," Hopefully this will put other criminals and thugs on notice that Kansas is a different state today than it was just 20 days ago." "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 2:53 PM:

" Unlawful Carrying—Houston, Texas
In an incident reported by the Houston Police Department, a concealed handgun license holder was arrested on April 10,1996, at the George Bush Airport for carrying a firearm in a prohibited area. Details on the offense noted that the "defendant placed carry-on bag on the X-ray belt at the airline screening check point with handgun inside." The officer noted that "defendant stated that she thought she had left the gun at home and did not know the gun was inside her bag." "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 2:57 PM:

" Round and Round we go:

Orlando Sentinel, Orlando, FL, 11/07/07
Juan Amezage and Stephen Soto were enjoying the fall weather outside Soto's apartment. The mood was shattered when two strangers walked by two or three times as If casing the neighborhood. Then the strangers approached. 'What time is it?' one asked. Soto looked down at his watch. but as he raised his head the stranger said, 'Hey, run them,' and drew a gun. But Amezaga and Soto are concealed-carry permit holden. Soto pulled a 9 mm pistol just as the stranger shot. The bullet grazed Soto's shin, breaking the skin. Police say Soto fired two or three times, and the robbers fled. One robber stopped and again began shooting. Soto and Amezaga both returned fire and the robber fled. "It could have been real bad last night If it wasn't for the quick thinking and our concealed-weapons permits" Soto said. "We might not even be here"

Do you have anything from this decade?
"

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 3:03 PM:

" DALLAS (May 26, 2000) - Marking the fifth anniversary of Texas' concealed carry law, a new report from the National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) shows that Texans with concealed carry permits are far less likely to commit a serious crime than the average citizen.

"Many predicted that minor incidents would escalate into bloody shootouts if Texas passed a concealed-carry law," said H. Sterling Burnett, a senior policy analyst at the NCPA and the author of the report. "That prediction was dead wrong."

In 1995, Texas Gov. George W. Bush signed a law granting Texans the right to carry concealed firearms. This made Texas the 23 state to pass a concealed carry law since 1986.

According to the report, the slightly more than 200,000 Texans who have become licensed to carry a concealed firearm are much more law-abiding than the average person. Comparing arrest rates for example:

* Texans who exercise their right to carry firearms are 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for a violent offense.

* They are 14 times less likely to be arrested for a non-violent offense.

* They are 1.4 times less likely to be arrested for murder.

Moreover, of the six licensees who were arrested and tried for murder or non-negligent manslaughter, four were found not guilty because they had acted in self-defense.

As of 2007, there were over 288,000 licenses w/ less than 1000 revoked or suspended for ANY reason for the year. , including the death of the holder or non-renewal.

Your anecdotes are failing. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 3:11 PM:

" Florida: Over 600,000 permits. Less than 1500 revoked or suspended for ANY reason/year.

Dayton Daily News, Dayton, OH, 06/06/05
The tables were turned on two teenage thugs in a Dayton, Ohio, alley one night in June when they targeted a man licensed to carry a firearm. They approached Mark Hill, and one of the men shoved him. When Hill turned around, they both flashed handguns, according to the police report. Hill backed away, hands outstretched, then pulled out a Glock 23 and fired, hitting one of the gunmen several times. Both men ran off. Shortly thereafter, two 16-year-olds accompanied a 17-year-old to the Good Samaritan Hospital. The latter was admitted with gunshot wounds to his leg, abdomen and arms. Hospital officials notified police, who said all three matched the description of the gunmen and another male he had seen during the robbery attempt. The 16-year-olds were arrested as they tried to leave the hospital, said Dayton Police Sgt. Dennis Chaney. It was Dayton's first defensive shooting by a holder of a concealed-carry permit, said Chaney. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 3:19 PM:

" Murder—Dallas, Texas
On June 5, 1998, concealed handgun license holder Jack Reynolds was charged with murder after he shot and killed his next-door neighbor, Julian Rioz. The Dallas Police reported that Rioz and several other people were at a party at Reynolds' home when a fight broke out over a woman. Police said Reynolds retrieved his handgun from his pocket and as Rioz was walking home shot his pistol in the air. Rioz taunted the man and told him if he was going to shoot him he should come closer and do it. Reynolds crossed the yard and at point-blank range shot his neighbor once in the chest. According to the Dallas Police Department, Reynolds had spent his pension check on beer and drugs for the party, and was drunk at the time of the shooting. Witnesses related that Reynolds was known for shooting his weapon into the air for no reason. At the time of the trial, Reynolds told the jury that he was too drunk and drugged to remember what happened. Reynolds was convicted of murder in January 1999 and sentenced to 10 years' probation. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 3:32 PM:

" The Hartford Courant, Hartford, CT, 11/18/05
After an armed burglar stole $100 from his home, Angel Benitez took a self-defense class and obtained a concealed-carry permit. "This year, I'm going to prepare myself," Benitez recalled saying to himself. And, according to police, he did just that when he heard the screams of his friend, Carmen Ramos. Benitez found a man pointing a gun at Ramos. "When I saw the gun, I fired," said Benitez. "He could have killed my friend." Ramos' daughter, who was watching television, thought her mother had been shot, but then saw the burglar stumble out the door. "He was yelling 'Ow, ow!'" she recalled. A man with a gunshot wound later arrived at the hospital, but police were still investigating whether he was the intruder.

North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 3:39 PM:

" Michigan 37,000 CCW licenses issued in 2006 alone. Only 108 revoked for ANY reason.

Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 09/15/06
Samuel Mitchell was exiting his church after choir practice, unaware that two blocks away events were in motion that would change his life. Police say a robber attempted to rob a man and woman, and the victims fled in opposite directions. The suspect pursued the female toward the church, where Mitchell had gotten into his truck. As he was leaving the parking lot, the woman climbed into Mitchell's vehicle and pleaded for help. When the suspect caught up, he stuck a pistol inside the truck window and announced a carjacking. Mitchell, who has a concealed carry permit, responded by producing his own pistol and shooting the man, who died at the hospital.

Really TQ. Your anecdotes are tired and worn out. Maybe if you used other sources than old VPC press releases and their "License to Kill" series, you might find something more current. Especially the fact that most of them only refer to "arrest incidents" and have little bearing on actual convictions which I've already shown. Of course that would include some independent research and we all know you're incapable of that. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 4:33 PM:

" Let's keep playing TQ.

Ohio: 110,000 licenses issued since 2004. Less than 1500 revoked or suspended for ANY reason.

"Sheriffs are not required to report the details surrounding a suspension."
"The reasons for revocation vary. It could be due to a move out of state or the death
of the licensee, or the licensee no longer wanting to hold the license."

Kalamazoo Gazette, Kalamazoo, MI, 5/18/07
Brian Smith was walking toward his apartment when two men approached him. Police say the men pretended to be lost, but became violent as Smith gave directions. One of the men pulled a revolver from his waistband, but Smith, who has a concealed-carry permit, reacted swiftly, drawing his own revolver and firing two shots. One suspect was injured and arrested at the hospital, while the other remains at large.

I've got plenty more states that issue CCW where your myths haven't occurred as well as anecdotes of my own. How many have the VPC (an organization that admits to lying to promote an agenda) provided you? "

swanee99 wrote on Apr 17, 2008 4:43 PM:

" "Sanity not being a virtue of Chicago politicians," sanity is not a virtue of many a gun nut either. One only has to look at Virginia Tech (guns bought legally) and NIU (also bought legally). Do you seriously think that these students with concealed weapons would have change the outcomes? Yeah, probably made them worse... There are soooo many other examples out there. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 4:47 PM:

" Attempted Murder of a Police Officer — Houston, Texas
On April 8, 2001, a friend of concealed handgun license holder Alberto Ruiz Fabila, 37, and another man were arguing outside a nightclub at closing time. Houston Police Department Officer D.A. Gamboa was working an extra job at the club and attempted to intervene. Fabila pulled a 45 caliber pistol from his waistband and pointed it at the officer. When Officer Gamboa grabbed the gun, Fabila fired once striking the officer's hand and then fled on foot. Fabila was caught by Officer Gamboa a few blocks away. The officer was then taken to the hospital for the injuries. In February 2002, Fabila was found guilty of aggravated assault on a public servant and sentenced to six years in prison. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 4:51 PM:

" I haven't heard you gun fanatics address the point yet. "Tired, worn-out, anecdotal" — those are irrelevant non-arguments you make because you refuse to address the fact that these incidents are evidence that concealed-carry laws permit drunks, hotheads, morons and crazy people easy access to deadly weapons at all times. You people have always claim that doesn't happen. These documented crimes show that it does. I'll keep citing them for you while you try to think up a way to refute what they prove. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 4:53 PM:

" Murder — Richardson, Texas
On April 1, 1999, concealed handgun license holder Randy Phil Allen II was arrested and charged with the 1988 murder of Alan Wayne Brunken. According to the Dallas Morning News, police believe that Allen and Brunken met for the first time the evening of February 28, 1988, at White Rock Lake, and the two men then went to Brunken's home. There, Brunken was shot with a handgun and stabbed several times, allegedly by Allen. The police believe that overtones of the crime suggest it was sexual in nature. Brunken's body was discovered on March 2, 1988, after he failed to show up for work. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 4:56 PM:

" "Yeah, probably made them worse... There are soooo many other examples out there. "

Name some.

At least eleven U.S. colleges (all nine public colleges in the state of Utah,
Colorado State University, and Blue Ridge Community College, in Weyers Cave, VA)have, for a combined total of more than sixty semesters, allowed concealed carry on campus, without a single incident of gun violence, without a single gun accident, and without a single gun theft.

"The concerns I had - with more guns on the street, folks may be more apt to square off against one another with weapons - we haven't experienced that." -- Charlotte-Mecklenburg, NC, Police Chief Dennis Nowicki, The News and Observer, 11/24/97 "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 4:59 PM:

" "I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened. All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman. I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert." -- Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, Dallas Morning News, 12/23/97
"I ... [felt] that such legislation present[ed] a clear and present danger to law-abiding citizens by placing more handguns on our streets. Boy was I wrong. Our experience in Harris County, and indeed statewide, has proven my fears absolutely groundless." -- Harris County [Texas] District Attorney John Holmes, Dallas Morning News, 12/23/97
"Some of the public safety concerns which we imagined or anticipated a couple of years ago, to our pleasant surprise, have been unfounded or mitigated." -- Fairfax County, VA, Police Major Bill Brown, Alexandria Journal, 7/9/97
"I was wrong. But I'm glad to say I was wrong." -- Arlington County, VA, Police Detective Paul Larson, Alexandria Journal, 7/9/97 "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:09 PM:

" It looks like the resident gun nut, RAK is to the gun threads what Bryant Liar is to the political discussions. LOL "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:09 PM:

" Murder — Del Rio, Texas
Concealed handgun license holder Patrick Glenn Bordelon was arrested and charged with the June 29, 1999, attempted murder of 16-year-old Ivan Misael Mendez Sepulveda. Sepulveda claimed that he was rounding up his dogs in the river when he was shot in the back three times, but Bordelon claimed that a Mexican man was standing on the American side of the river, outside his (Bordelon's) chain-link fence and that "he knew his intentions." At the trial Bordelon stated that the youth was clearly trespassing and testified that "I certainly didn't have a sign outside that said, ‘Free tacos.'" In December 2001, Bordelon was cleared of the attempted murder charge but the jury found him guilty of two counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, saying that Bordelon shot Sepulveda in the back and the ankle with two blasts of a shotgun, according to the San Antonio Express-News. Bordelon was sentenced to three and one-half years in jail.
Additionally, in May 2002, Bordelon pled guilty to shooting and killing a Mexican youth in November 1999. Bordelon was charged with murder for shooting 16-year-old Luis Armando Chavez Vaquera. He plead down to manslaughter and was sentenced to seven years in prison. According to Chavez Vaquera's friends, they crossed the Rio Grande to burglarize Bordelon's home. Before they could break in, Bordelon arrived home, got a gun, and began shooting. According to the San Antonio Express-News, even after he pled guilty, Bordelon claimed, "I did not shoot anyone, and that's all I've got to say." Under terms of the plea agreement, Bordelon's seven-year manslaughter term will run concurrent with the aggravated assault conviction. He will be eligible for parole in three and a half years. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:18 PM:

" The Question thinks "these laws permit drunks, hotheads, morons and crazy people easy access to deadly weapons at all times."
If they are such, what makes you think having or not having a license would make any difference to how they act? All you've provided are a few anecdotes (mostly out of context) from the VPC while I've provided evidence from states on the hundreds of thousands of CCW across the nation that you seem to think are now mindless killers. Your sad devotion to an obsolete philosophy shows that you have trouble thinking for yourself. You'll ignore these facts in favor of these beliefs no matter how much real evidence is presented.

Utah: 85,000 permits w/ less than 1000 revoked or suspended for ANY reason/year. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:18 PM:

" The Kentucky Post, Covington, KY, 8/20/99
Retired utility worker Joe Mergerle was walking in a Kenton County, Kentucky, park one morning when a man approached him, drew a pistol and demanded money. Fortunately, Mergerle was one of 51,000 Kentucky residents who held a firearms carry permit under a three-year-old state law allowing concealed carry. The law along with Mergerle's .25-cal. pistol may well have spared his life. Mergerle, fearing for his safety, drew the gun and shot his attacker twice, sending him to the hospital in critical condition. The would-be mugger is facing an attempted robbery charge and may also be charged with attempted murder. Sheriff Charles Korzenborn said of the incident, "People have not only a right but a responsibility to take care of themselves." "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:20 PM:

" I can keep this up as well TQ:

Associated Press, 12/11/07
Matthew Murray allegedly wrote online, "All I want to do is kill and injure as many [Christians] … as I can." Police say he made good on his word, first by killing two young students at a missionary training center outside Denver. His next target was a gathering of 7,000 people in and around the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. With a rifle and a backpack full of ammunition, Murray entered the church and opened fire. Sadly, two sisters were killed. One man yelled to distract the gunman and was shot in the arm. That's when volunteer security guard Jeanne Assam, who has a concealed-carry permit and once worked in law enforcement, yelled, "Surrender!" Armed with a handgun, she walked toward Murray and shot him several times. "It seemed like it was me, the gunman and God," Assam recalls. His twisted plan foiled, the immobilized gunman killed himself.
"

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:22 PM:

" So Mr. Potter. Are you still living in your fantasy world of Hogwarts or do you actually have some evidence (besides VPC talking points) to present? I suspect nothing but the usual trolling. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:26 PM:

" Really TQ, your anecdotes aren't even covering CCW anymore. What is it now? About 1.5 million CCW holders to your dozen or so anecdotes? Are you going to start w/ the insults again or just keep cutnpasting from the VPC?

The Arizona Daily Star, Tucson, AZ, 03/08/06
When a man dressed in black approached a woman on the street, implied he had a gun and demanded cash, she initially tried the passive approach. Police say that although she had a concealed-carry permit and a revolver tucked away, she handed some money over and hoped the robber would leave. But when that didn't work, and fearing her life was in danger, the victim drew her revolver and pointed it at the robber, who ran away. According to a police officer, "She was in fear of her life, and she defended herself appropriately." "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:35 PM:

" Kansas: Since 2006, over 13,000 licenses issued. 17 revoked or suspended total.

From the The Huntsville Times of April 14, 2008

Would-be Scottsboro robber gets shot in stomach, hospitalized

A would-be thief was shot in the stomach as he tried to rob a man over the weekend and is recovering in Tennessee, where he fled after the incident in Scottsboro, police said Monday.

Scottsboro Police Chief Ralph Dawe said the suspect, whose name has not been released, tried to rob a man near Highlands Medical Center around 2 a.m. Saturday.

He said the robbery target pulled a gun and shot the suspect in the abdomen. The suspect then fled to Chattanooga, Tenn., where he is being treated at Erlanger Hospital.

Dave said there were outstanding arrest warrants for the man on first-degree robbery charges for a similar incident at a local Wal-Mart and he will be extradited back to Alabama when his medical condition improves.

He said the information compiled so far provides no reason to charge the person who shot the robbery suspect.

Dave said Tennessee authorities contacted their Alabama counterparts after the man gave differnt versions of how he ended up with the gunshot wound.

"He gave several stories, but all accounts of what happened involved Scottsboro, so they called us," Dawe said. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:45 PM:

" This is fun. Just think of this. There are over 3 million CCW permit holders in the US. That doesn't include AK or VT which require no license. If you've been out of this state, odds are you've passed or even talked to someone who was carrying and didn't even know it.

Let's keep playing:

Dadeville, Missouri

From Ky3 of April 9, 2008

Woman holds burglar at gunpoint

A burglar in southern Cedar County found himself in a standoff this week -- not with police but with a 57-year-old woman armed with a pistol and training for a conceal-and-carry permit. She held the burglar at bay until police could arrive to arrest him at the rural home where whe found him in the closet. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 5:53 PM:

" I can keep this up for a long time TQ. Being that the facts and evidence support me and not your myths, I have more to work w/.

" The armed citizens in Dickson County have proven that "GUNS" are not the problem, "CRIMINALS" are. We have had 0 violations by handgun permit holders. The more armed citizens we have, the safer our country will be."--Sheriff Tom Wall / Dickson County Tennessee

" To my knowledge, there have been very few incidents state wide involving abuses of the permit system. I consider the ability to defend oneself as a quality of life issue. I tell our handgun classes as part of my instruction, that the chances they will ever have to use their handgun in an act of self-defense are actually very slight. I add however; that if having the ability to defend oneself close at hand gives the permit holder a sense of security and helps overcome their fear of crime, then the mission of the law has been realized, and the quality of life for the permit holder has been enhanced significantly. The day I leave office, I will have a brand new handgun permit in my wallet."--Sheriff Dan Gilley / Bradley County Tennessee.

Now TQ will continue to claim that I'm not answering his claims that Coles County will be awash w/ blood if IL gets CCW like 48 other states based off of his anecdotes. That and throw out a few more insults. Just watch. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 6:37 PM:

" " The Question thinks "these laws permit drunks, hotheads, morons and crazy people easy access to deadly weapons at all times."
If they are such, what makes you think having or not having a license would make any difference to how they act?
------
Obviously, drunks, hotheads, morons and crazy people who run around with concealed weapons but without permits for them can be arrested and thrown in jail BEFORE they get the whim to murder somebody. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 6:59 PM:

" Only if they're caught w/ them. Of course it's illegal to have a CC and be drunk anyway so that's another non-sequitur. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 7:21 PM:

" You know, this isn't a back alley in Istanbul here, or even the south side of Chicago. Anyone who seriously believes he needs a concealed handgun to protect himself in Coles County is already too crazy to be trusted with firearms. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 7:56 PM:

" And TQ now returns to the ad hominem attacks and insults just like I said he would since his previous claims have been shown to be false. Just because he doesn't ever leave the county doesn't mean everyone stays here permanently. "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 17, 2008 8:08 PM:

" We used to have two boring serial posters on here, Bryant L and Chas grad85, and now we have another to bore us to death with his non stop blather, I'm speaking of no other than RAK. At least we have the hope of RAK going away after the gun threads get dropped, that is, until then ...try to ignore him. "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 8:15 PM:

" " And TQ now returns to the ad hominem attacks and insults just like I said he would since his previous claims have been shown to be false. Just because he doesn't ever leave the county doesn't mean everyone stays here permanently. "
-----
No, I'm being serious, not snarky. Anyone who thinks he needs to carry a concealed handgun to be safe in Coles County is not entirely sane. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 8:16 PM:

" That's right Harry. Since you can't dispute anything I posted, it's much better to stick your fingers in your ears and yell. My 2 year old did that as well. "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 8:31 PM:

" So was I. Some of us actually leave Coles County. Some people actually travel or work in other parts of the state and other states. Can you provide any justification besides what YOU personally think people need or not? "

The Question wrote on Apr 17, 2008 8:38 PM:

" Well, I only ask that you hold your breath until concealed carry passes in this state. RAK.
But you won't let that stop you, will you? You're already carrying a concealed handgun, aren't you? "

RAK wrote on Apr 17, 2008 8:42 PM:

" Not in this state I'm not. I actually follow the law but your preconceived notions of firearm advocates precludes you understanding that. I recognize CCW is a long shot in Illinois right now. 15 years ago the same thing was said about it in the majority of other states. You know. The 48 that have it now that aren't seeing "blood in the streets" or "wild west shootout". "

Ol'Coach wrote on Apr 17, 2008 9:31 PM:

" TQ...

Instead of "quoting" an article, would you please provide a link to the source?

Cut and paste allows for editing! "

Ol'Coach wrote on Apr 17, 2008 9:35 PM:

" TQ...

You wrote...Anyone who seriously believes he needs a concealed handgun to protect himself in Coles County is already too crazy to be trusted with firearms. "

Got a fire extinguisher?

You must be crazy! "

The Question wrote on Apr 18, 2008 5:06 AM:

" You wrote...Anyone who seriously believes he needs a concealed handgun to protect himself in Coles County is already too crazy to be trusted with firearms. "
Got a fire extinguisher?
You must be crazy!
------
Really? Tell us, just who is it you think you going to have to shoot at any moment on the streets of Coles County? Do you have to duck sniper fire when you go outside? "

Early Bird wrote on Apr 18, 2008 5:34 AM:

" I see we had a new posting style critic show up yesterday. It's always interesting to see someone make a complaint toward another, that they disagree with, by making comments about such thing as telling them they should stop things like cut and pasting. Especially when they address that point toward those in opposition and ignore those that support their view who do the very same thing, like our obsessed friend RAK. And yes, Ol'Coach any one who disagrees with your point must be crazy. But I though the only ones who made claims like that were those who are opposed to CCW laws. Looks like RAK might need to take you to the woodshed for an attitude adjustment, how about it RAK? "

Early Bird wrote on Apr 18, 2008 5:49 AM:

" Our friend Coonsey makes some good points on her site about John McCain and gun control. According to Coonsey, not only does McCain support some gun control measures, he has actually proposed some on his own. Wonder what the gun nuts think of that? Since all 3 of the current candidates favor more gun control, people like RAK will have plenty to obsess about over the next four years. "

RAK wrote on Apr 18, 2008 6:51 AM:

" OF course EB forgets to mention that every single one of the 3 candidates have backed off their previous stances and are pandering to the "pro-gun" vote. Why would that be? "

The Question wrote on Apr 18, 2008 7:58 AM:

" Got a fire extinguisher?
You must be crazy!
----
Yes, I do have a fire extinguisher, but I don't feel the need to lug it around everywhere because I'm expecting a fire to jump me at any minute. "

The Question wrote on Apr 18, 2008 9:35 AM:

" Isn't it odd that, in a community that's already relatively safe, the concealed-carry proponents feel such an overwhelming, urgent need to make it "safer?"
The vast anecdotal evidence is irrelevant to the proponents because it's really a smokescreen. In fact, the concealed-carry fever has nothing to do with rational policy or public safety. It is driven by the psychological needs of the proponents, not by reason.
They are already free to have all the guns they want, but that's not nearly enough. That doesn't satisfy their gun fetishism. They think they need to be able to fondle and caress a gun at all hours, everywhere, in order to feel satisfied, and safe, and superior.
What they don't know is that won't satisfy them either. Nothing will.
A gun is an instrument of deadly force, and to hunger and thirst for deadly force at all times in a safe environment indicates that you are overcompensating for your buried, unacknowledged feelings of inadequacy and powerlessness.
Note how it's largely men, with their well-known hang-ups about personal power, who crusade for concealed carry. Women are more vulnerable, but are not panting to pack heat.
The closer we get to discussing the real motivations behind this issue, the angrier the concealed-carry proponents will become. It's a defense mechanism to keep them from facing what they secretly know to be the truth. "

father bob wrote on Apr 18, 2008 9:54 AM:

" Q....you gotta remember, these guys are the ones that stand in front of a mirror and practice their quick draw, or their drop-roll-shoot technique. "

RAK wrote on Apr 18, 2008 10:24 AM:

" Isn't it interesting that TQ, when he ran out of anecdotes provided by the VPC and was unable to counter any of the actual evidence provided, has to resort to the usual ad hominems and insults including sexism and "fetish" comments? Could it be because he's afraid of what he might do were he allowed to carry a firearm that he has to project his own insecurities onto others? "

Ol'Coach wrote on Apr 18, 2008 12:30 PM:

" TQ and FB, it’s time you two stopped spouting your own opinions and do some research!

Do you know what the Joyce Foundation is?
The Joyce Foundation is a Chicago based organization that funds virtually every anti 2A organization in the United States.
Link:: http://www.joycefdn.org/GrantList/Default.aspx

Are you surprised to find that the VPC has received nearly $2,000,000 in grants from the Chicago-based Joyce Foundation in the last 2 years?? I wonder how much of that money went to pay administrative salaries? Do you believe those “studies” conducted to be unbiased?

I hope you note that the Joyce Foundation also grants huge sums of money to the ICHV (Illinois Council against Handgun Violence) which uses the biased reports from the VPC for its propaganda.

Note that it also issues grants to the Center for Disease Control!

The president of the Joyce Foundation was the chairperson for the ICPA (International Chiefs of Police Association) which gave its report last summer. The little get-together was funded by the Joyce Foudation and had such notables as Mayor Daley and the Chicago Chief of Police in attendence. (Sarcasm on)! Please note the amount of funding directed by the Joyce Foundation to that group!

You might want to check the annual report from the Texas Dept of Public Safety:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2005.pdf

This report gives conviction rates for crimes involving firearms…some on charges I didn’t know existed! It compares the total number of convictions with the convictions of Concealed Handgun License Holders, and gives the corresponding percentage.

On second thought, maybe you shouldn’t, because it will show you this:

Conviction Rates for Concealed Handgun License Holders
Reporting Period: 01/01/2005 - 12/31/2005

Total convictions = 34,791
Convictions of CHL holders = 129
CHL percentage of total convictions = 0.3708%

That’s less than four-tenths of 1%, correct?

So, where’s your “wild man, shoot-out” theory now?
"

RAK wrote on Apr 18, 2008 2:38 PM:

" Coach,

Don't forget who was a board member of the Joyce foundation during the years that theygave money to the VPC to put out the paper that TQ cutnpasted from. The same individual who has stated he will push for a national ban on CCW. His initials are BHO. "

father bob wrote on Apr 18, 2008 3:33 PM:

" Ol'Coach wrote on Apr 18, 2008 12:30 PM:
" TQ and FB, it’s time you two stopped spouting your own opinions and do some research!

after a few innocent LOCAL people get shot down in cold blood, you'll change your tune. "

Billie Brant wrote on Apr 18, 2008 4:41 PM:

" Question, You had better believe if we had a concealed carry law in Illinois, there would be times when I would use it! I would use it if I were traveling by car to areas within the state that had a higher risk factor of violent crime occuring. I would like to be able to carry if I were driving out of state on vacations also. To be legal I would check the states I'm going through to make sure I can. I doubt if I'll be doing it on my frequent trips to and from town. I do keep a loaded 12ga handy at home.though Just watch, the government will want to classify my Reminton 870 12ga pump as a semi-automatic because it is capable of holding 3,shells! .... Oh by the way, I'm not panting to pack heat as you suggested "us girls" aren't likely to do. I just feel I would like to have this protection for myself. I'll save my panting for other things. LOl! "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 18, 2008 5:21 PM:

" Billie, if you remove that dowel rod, it'll hold five. You can only carry three in the field, but I don't know, if you keep it inside your home to be used for self defense, seems like you should be able to load it with five. I know I've got five in mine, but I'm sure I'll never need more than one. LOL "

RAK wrote on Apr 18, 2008 5:26 PM:

" "after a few innocent LOCAL people get shot down in cold blood, you'll change your tune. "

More of the same hysteria from one of the three stooges. "

Billie Brant wrote on Apr 18, 2008 8:58 PM:

" I know about taking it out Tom, but I figure if I need to use it at or inside my home to defend myself, one shot is all I'm gonna need up close and personal. If I can't hit a target with a 12ga inside, I'm a pretty poor shot. I may have to adjust my "shoot'n eye" a little since mine's a trap grade and the sights are set differently than a field grade. OR I just might shoot from the hip! All kidding aside, I hope I NEVER have to point it at a human being. I was taught by one of the best how to shoot and handle them safely. BUT Toby also told me if I ever had to point it at someone, be prepared to pull the trigger if neccessary OR they may take it away from you and use it on YOU! So far the only thing target's I've shot at were clay pigeons. I hope it stays that way. "

NeoCon Academician wrote on Apr 18, 2008 9:07 PM:

" I wonder why there is such a gun problem in Chicago and Washington D.C.? Oh yeah, it's because these two cities have all out gun bans! Out of 50 states, the "liberal utopia" states of Illinois and Wisconsin as the only two states in the union to have a conceal carry prohibition. Consider after passing their concealed carry law Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below the national average (Kopel & Cramer, 1994). Nationally, when concealed carry laws have been enacted murders have fallen by 8%, rapes fallen by 5%, and aggravated assaults fallen by 7%. Between '77 and '95 the cumulative, average death rate from mass shootings fell by 91% after conceal carried laws were passed. More people with concealed carry guns means shoot-out in the streets right? Nope. People with concealed carry permits are 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent crimes and 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent crimes (Texas Dept. of Public Safety Study, 2000). Consider also that 66% of police chiefs believe concealed carry reduces violent crime (National Association of Chiefs of Police, 2005). And criminals aren't getting there guns at gun shows or dealers. >70% of armed career criminals get their guns from "off the street sales" and criminal acts and of this statistic 71% of those firearms were stolen (U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, 1992). And more concealed carry handguns are going to kill our kids right? No again. < 2% of all unintentional injury deaths for children in the U.S. between 0 and 14 are from firearms (National Safety Council, 1999). Children are 12 more times likely to die in automobile crashes (Nat Cent. Health Stats, 1997. Are legal handguns used to defeat crime? Yep. In 80% of gun defense incidences the defender used a concealable handgun. 1/4 of these incidences were at a place other than their home (Kleck and Gertz, 1995). I could go with other research but, as we already know, liberals/democrats aren't listening.

"

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 19, 2008 10:42 AM:

" Three stooges? Would that be RAK, Ol'Coach and sapient?.... hee hee.... Now who was it that was whining about name calling on this site? Let's see now, was it the resident gun nut case RAK, and how do you spell hypocri.... I really don't care if you wish to call names RAK, but please stop whining about the opposition doing it, as it makes you look rather ....well...uh..lame. "

Elbert wrote on Apr 19, 2008 10:56 AM:

" If havinga gun provides more protection, it makes sense to have that gun displayed in plain sight so that the bad person will not even try to confront you, thus requiring you to get your gun out and show or use it. Thus a concealed weapons law makes no sense while a required open carry law would do two things. It would show the potential bad person that someone is armed and permit me to also avoid them on the possiblity that they might become angry at something that i have said and or done and draw their hidden weapon "

ninja.of.love wrote on Apr 19, 2008 5:11 PM:

" Elbert, you overlooked one critical fact. It is the mystery surrounding whether a person is carrying or not that acts as a deterrent. If the potential robber/rapist/criminal can see that his target his carrying, he'll just wait for another target. If he can't, rather than committing the same crime on a different, defenseless person, he may reconsider the action entirely.

Given the long battle of news stories, I thought I'd contribute two statistics. Florida has had concealed-carry for 20 years. They have issued more than 1.3 million permits. Of those 1.3 million permits, 165 have been revoked because the permit holder committed a crime with that firearm. Also, the (Janet Reno) Justice Department issued a report saying there were more defensive gun uses per annum than crimes committed with guns. "

RAK wrote on Apr 19, 2008 9:52 PM:

" Harry Potter took his hands off his "wand" long enough to type the following:

" Three stooges? Would that be RAK, Ol'Coach and sapient?.... hee hee.... Now who was it that was whining about name calling on this site? Let's see now, was it the resident gun nut case RAK, and how do you spell hypocri.... I really don't care if you wish to call names RAK, but please stop whining about the opposition doing it, as it makes you look rather ....well...uh..lame. "

The difference Harry is that's ALL you have. You have no evidence, no statistics, no facts. Just insults and ad hominems. You are unable to dispute anything I've presented so you resort to sophomoric name calling.
When you can actually contest what I've said, then someone might take you seriously.
"

RAK wrote on Apr 19, 2008 9:55 PM:

" Elbert:
The flaw in your logic is that Open Carry does announce that you have a firearm and therefor makes you the primary target and allows them to react first. Concealed Carry keeps them guessing and increases your chances for the element of surprise.

That said, I would accept an Open Carry as an improvement over what we have now. Dependence on the authorities to protect you. "

Early Bird wrote on Apr 20, 2008 6:18 AM:

" Good point, Elbert. It would also help the egos of all those little boys who still want to play cowboy, because everyone could look at them and go, wow, what a big man! This would probably be the case for one particularly insecure cowboy wannabe who left over 30 messages on this thread alone, which in itself seems to indicate some sort of abnormal obsession over this issue. How would you like to live next door to this guy? I'll bet he has an arsenal, complete with every type weapon imaginable, in his basement, and yet whines about not getting to carry some of them with him when he leaves his house. Yeah, this obsessed little insecure person is certainly a good reason to let everyone run around with a loaded gun. "

RAK wrote on Apr 20, 2008 8:36 AM:

" And Early Bird again shows to the world exactly what I was talking about. Can't respond w/ facts or dispute what's been shown? Resort to petty insults. It's all they have and all they'll ever have.

Can you dispute anything I've presented EB? Obviously not. "

pj61938 wrote on Apr 20, 2008 3:29 PM:

" (This would probably be the case for one particularly insecure cowboy wannabe who left over 30 messages on this thread alone, which in itself seems to indicate some sort of abnormal obsession over this issue.) *********
Oh that's rich EB! You have room to talk about obsessions don't you. How many threads have you and your left-wing ilk crapped all over with your insane obsessions with Bush, Rush Limbaugh and FoxNews? "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 20, 2008 9:44 PM:

" Thank God, the Illinois politicians didn't cave in to the lunatic gun nut fringe element, like the obsessed nut case on this site. I agree with the Bird on this issue. Perhaps the loonies need to consider moving out of Illinois. I'm sure they would be welcome in Mississippi or Arkansas or someplace where they could all sit around and talk about their manhood with their redneck buddies, till the cows come home. hee hee. "

steve senteney wrote on Apr 21, 2008 8:37 AM:

" I raise the question of whether readers believe the U.S. Supreme Court will render a decision this summer on whether a local governmnent can restrict the ownership of handguns. It heard the case a couple weeks ago. It is a Washington, D.C. case, but it will probably have a bearing on whether Chicago and other suburbs laws against ownership of handguns are constitutional.

In regards to individuals being allowed to carry a concealed handgun, many questions need to be answered. I don't have all the answers. I have concern about untrained individuals carrying a concealed handgun. I have concern about those who have mental issues carrying a handgun.

I raise additional questions for those who favor laws allowing a person to carry a concealed handgun. Do you believe any type of application should be required. Do you believe mental issues should disqualify a person from carrying a concealed handgun? Do you believe any type of training should be required? If you believe training should be required, how many hours should be required in handgun safety, legal issues, handgun operations (target shooting), qualifying score, etc. How often should a person have to requalify with the handgun? Should a person have to qualify with each handgun they want to carry or should only a carry permit be sufficient for any handgun?

Should a person who is authorized to carry a concealed handgun be required to carry liability insurance? We have to carry vehicle insurance. Certain professions to include Illinois licensed private investigators are required to carry liability insurance.

As a person who owns handguns and served as a law enforcement firearms instructor for many years, I have questions about a law allowing anyone to carry a concealed handgun.

As a retired law enforcement officer and meeting other requirements, I can carry a concealed handgun. These other requirements include many of the issues I raise above. To date, I have not applied to carry a concealed handgun as I know there are many issues and potential problems with carrying a concealed handgun. I have no reason to carry a handgun in Central Illinois. However, I spend a lot of time in Memphis and soon will spend time in New York City, so I may decide I should apply for the retired law enforcement permit, qualify, increase my liability insurance and then pray I never need to use the weapon. I know carrying a concealed handgun is a burden and I don't know that I want to go back to having that burden.

A poster a few weeks ago inquired how I felt about a concealed handgun law, so I have responded to their question. I am hesitant to say others should not have a right to carry a concealed handgun, but I believe there should be restrictions and requirements if such a law is passed.

A big question I have and do not know the answer, how do you eliminate those who have mental issues from being issued a concealed carry permit?

If I was to write the law to allow individuals to carry a concealed handgun, only a few would apply. I would require some sort of determination the person has not been treated for mental issues or should have been treated, several hours of legal training, several hours of handgun safety training, several hours of hands on firing of each weapon, a difficult qualification score for each weapon, a high dollar amount of liability insurance, and yearly qualification with each handgun. Others may have other requirements I have not thought about and would merit being included.

I would like to add, anyone who has a firearm in their home, please make sure it is SAFE from children. Too many children each year are injured or killed each year from access to a firearm in their home, relatives home or a home of a friend. You can train your own children and grandchildren, but you can't train their friends. Additionally, we never know whether our own children or grandchildren who we have trained in firearms safety may violate those safety rules.

I don't expect everyone to agree with my position on carrying a concealed handgun. Essentially, I believe in a right to carry a concealed handgun, but believe there are many problems with such a law if it is not well written with appropriate requirements.
Steve Senteney "

RAK wrote on Apr 21, 2008 10:30 AM:

" Steve,

For the most part I agree w/ your stance. The majority of states have the requirements you desire excepting the liability insurance. I disagree w/ that stance. The IL statutes already require a FOID card and NICS check. Both of which include mental health checks. This system could be improved but also opens dangerous doors to privacy invasions. What kind of mental issues should be disqualifiers? Should they be permanent, even after care? That would (and does) discourage people from seeking treatment already.

Here's the current bill in the legislature that's being stalled by crime free Chicago:

http://tinyurl.com/3shoz6 "

steve senteney wrote on Apr 21, 2008 12:18 PM:

" For those who are not familiar with the term FOID card, that is the Illinois Firearms Owners Identification Card. I believe this card is essentially useless. I question whether any check is conducted whether any FOID applicant has actually been treated for any mental illness issues. The application ask whether you have been, but honesty is certainly not assured.

I am not familiar with the term NICS. If you mean NCIC, that is the National Crime Information Center. Again, that only has information regarding felony and serious misdemeaner convictions. There are certainly misdemeaner convictions that I believe should disqualify a person from carrying a concealed handgun that are not defined as serious misdemeaners.

Regarding treatment of mental illness as a disqualifying issue, that is part of the problem with a concealed carry law. I am a big supporter of mental illness treatment. But I am also a believer that some of those who have a mental illness should not possess or carry a concealed weapon.

So it will take those smarter than I am to write a concealed carry law which I would agree with.

I know my former federal agency requires that personnel files be reviewed to determine if a retiree was treated or had any signs of mental illness before they will issue the identification card which is one of the requirements to carry a concealed firearm.

I believe there are a lot of people who should not carry a concealed firearm, but since I can carry one if I can fire the qualifying score, I do not want to be hypocritical and say others can't do the same. But I did have 25 plus years where I received firearms training several times year and had high standards for qualifications plus several hours of legal training each of those years.

A lot of responsibility goes with carrying a firearm. A person must be able to make a good judgement and make a good decision in a short period of time before firing a weapon. A bad decision can have fatal results for one or more totally innocent persons.

So a lot of discussion and more information is needed before I could agree on any right to carry a concealed weapon law is passed. I know criminals carry and use weapons and we need to be able to defend outselves. But if the weapon laws were prosecuted more forcefully, less plea bargaining with firearms violations, no combining other charges with the firearms violations and certainty of lengthy incarceration by sentencing judges, then perhaps fewer people would believe they had a need to legally carry a firearm.

I essentially am a middle of the roader when it comes to firearms. I believe in the Second Admendment and the right to own and possess firearms, but I believe the government has a right to put some restrictions on the purchase and carrying of firearms.

Why does anyone need to take possession of a firearm the day they purchase it? Why do firearm shows and auctions not have the same requirements and restrictions as a firearms dealer who owns a store? Why does anyone need a fully automatic firearm? Why does anyone need a large capacity magazine or clip which allows for many rounds to be carried in a weapon?

I enjoy reading the thoughts of others on this topic. Diversity of opinion is welcomed as I know I do not have all the answers on this issue. I believe some are of the opinion that no one should carry a concealed firearm, they may be right, I welcome their thoughts on the topic. But more importantly, please submit your thoughts to our legislators who actually get to submit laws and vote on this tipic.

Steve Senteney

"

even steven wrote on Apr 21, 2008 1:01 PM:

" Having been robbed, beaten severely, and left for dead in a field when I was 18 years old, I am now armed most of the time. I will ignore any unconstitutional laws that infringe on my right to be armed and defend myself. The part of the Second Amendment that has teeth is "...shall not be infringed." There is no legitimate argument otherwise. The police cannot be everywhere to protect everyone from armed criminals, and I'm living proof of it. Fortunately, my attackers just used a gun (or guns) to beat me rather than to shoot me. "

steve senteney wrote on Apr 21, 2008 2:43 PM:

" Rak:
I just read the Illinois proposed concealed carry firearms bill as you suggested. It certainly does not contain requirements that I would require if I had a vote on the matter. The required training seems very minimal. No certain number of actual marksmanship training hours are required. I would require between 40 and 80 hours of marksmanship training in addition to the safety and legal training. I certainly do not believe 20 rounds are sufficient to determine firearms proficiency and judgement. I would require different qualification courses with at least 200 rounds be required for a qualification. This would be repeated annually if I had any vote on the matter.

I do not believe Illinois has a high enough standard for current law enforcement officers as far as their qualification to carry a firearm. It was only after the Federal law was passed that allowed retired officers to carry that Illinois established a state requirement for recertification each year. Before, once an officer qualified, they never had to qualify again. As I understand it, the city of Chicago got the standards reduced in order for the bill to pass. But at least now all Illinois law enforcement officers must requalify with their weapon.

Fortunately, many Illinois law enforcement agencies did require their officer to receive yearly training and qualification without a law requiring it. Mattoon Police Department has had a firearms range since the mid 1970's and was one of the few in Central Illinois until more recent time. Most of it was built with volunteer labor and donations with minimal tax dollars. For the most part it was made possible by efforts of labor unions, local businesses and Mattoon police officers working together with donations of money, equipment and time to build this excellent range.

I would not permit Sheriffs to be the authorizing official and one responsible for training and certification as is now set out in the bill. To maintain one state standard, I would require the Illinois Law Enforcement Training and Standards Board to be the agency to handle the permits.

The proposed law has no requirement for liability insurance. This is a must as far as I am concerned.

There are other issues I have with the proposed bill, but this forum is not the place to discuss them in detail. That again would best be done over coffee.

Regarding the post by "even steven."
I think you need to speak with an attorney regarding your thoughts on firearms laws and willingness to violate them.

I don't believe I have the knowledge or ability to convince you that you should follow the laws as they have been passed and interpreted by the courts since you state "I will ignore any unconstitutional laws that infringe on my right to be armed and defend myself.

I only investigated the laws that were enacted by our Congress and President and certainly had nothing to do with their content. The judicial branch to include the Supreme Court has certainly reviewed many firearms laws and their interpretations are available for everyone to read. But again, you may want to consult with an attorney to determine if your interpretation of our firearms laws are valid.

Steve Senteney

"

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 21, 2008 2:48 PM:

" Steve, I generally agree with what you have to say on here, and I probably agree with you on this one too. However, whenever I consider weighty issues, such as keeping and bearing arms and concealed carry, I separate the various points being debated. The first point is that, believe it or not, everyone has a RIGHT to keep and bear arms in our nation - for whatever reason, be it for hunting or self-defense or simply as a collector. To take that right away is by exception only - for example, a convicted felon, mental illness, etc. The second point, and one which must be isolated from keeping and bearing arms or carrying concealed is whether or not those arms were legally or illegally USED. That's where 'responsibility' burdens the individual. My point is that I should be allowed to keep and bear arms and I should be allowed the right to conceal them if I want. (The Constitution grants me that right.) However, if I take a life with a gun, or by any other means, I'll be held accountable for that act and I'd better be able to justify my action. Let's not 'bundle' all the legal arguments as one issue in this gun control debate. The right to keep and bear arms and concealed carry aren't the important issues - they're presumed by the Constitution. The important issue is responsible, justified use of a gun. It always comes down to HOW the gun was used - not whether it was concealed. "

steve senteney wrote on Apr 21, 2008 4:32 PM:

" Tom Andres:
I agree with you that we have the right to own and possess a firearm.

I understand the Second Amendment to mean that we have a right to own and bear arms.

The courts to include the Supreme Court have allowed laws to stand that restrict the sale and possession of certain weapons. Additional laws have passed muster that restrict where firearms can be carried, airplanes, court houses, government buildings, stadiums, schools, places that serve alcohol and other locations.

There are other firarms restrictions, but I am not an attorney and have only general knowledge of firearms laws. There are certainly others on this forum who may know far more than I do about firearms laws.

I had been requested to post my comments about the right to carry a concealed firearm and it appeared this was the appropriate place to do so. As I have indicated, I have mixed feelings about firearms concealed carry laws. I understand those who agree with it and those who do not. I just believe if a concealed carry law is passed, it should have strict requirements on who is allowed to obtain a permit to do so.

I have probably said more than I should and other readers are tired of reading my thoughts on firearm laws.

Steve Senteney

Steve Senteney

"

Elbert wrote on Apr 21, 2008 6:37 PM:

" To ninja.of.love

Thank you for your comment regarding my position. I did not overlook the critical fact of “the mystery” surrounding whether a person is carrying acts as a deterrent. Doesn’t the fact that one is openly carrying, act as a deterrent? Doesn’t that make you who want to carry safer as it is less likely that you will be assaulted. If we are to have a carry law, I want an open carry in order to protect me so that I can avoid those who are carrying a fire arm. Now, of course, I won’t be able to avoid those who conceal, and intend on doing harm. That, however, is my problem, not yours and is, in fact, no different than what prese3ntly obtains.
"

Elbert wrote on Apr 21, 2008 6:39 PM:

" To RAK

Thank you for your comment that there is a flaw in my logic. Let me see if I understand our respective positions and you tell me where there is a flaw in the logic. I suspect that the flaw is in the premises that each of us makes, not in the syllogism that results

Your first premise is carrying a fire arm makes you the primary target. Your second is that openly carrying allows them to react first. Your third is that you will be able to surprise the person by quickly drawing your fire arm from its concealed place. Then, having surprised them, you will take appropriate action. Is that your argument?

My first premise is those who openly carrying are less likely to be confronted. You don’t address this issue In fact you seem to argue that those who carry and those who don’t are equally likely to be assaulted. I find it difficult to believe that those who carry and those who don’t are equally at risk. Perhaps you have evidence that supports your argument Your second premise is that openly carrying a fire arm allows the person who wants to assault you to react first.” I think they will “react first” by choosing to pass you by and leave you safe. Thus, it seems that your second premise supports the idea that openly carrying will make you safe which is my argument. Your third premise is that carrying a concealed fire arm will enable you to produce that fire arm quickly and surprise and “get the drop” on the person confronting you . That might be possible if the person threatening you did so without either having a weapon or having the weapon at their side or in their pocket. That, however, also seems implausible for two reasons. First, as I have argued earlier the person is unlikely to confront you because you have a visible weapon. Second, I am not optimistic about one’s ability to engage in a fast draw, as the only fast draws I have seen are in the movies. Do they teach one how to “fast draw’ when they have concealed gun classes? Given your argument, I also wonder why police officers and members of the military don’t conceal their weapons so that they could surprise the person confronting them by quickly drawing a concealed weapon.
Now, as I wrote to nija.of. love, not everyone will want to openly carry and they may be the object of those who want to assault someone. That is the risk, I choose to assume as I would rather know who chooses to carry a firearm. And, I will be able to avoid them. I, of course, may not be able to avoid those who conceal their weapons and want to assault me. But, that is the risk that I have taken and continue to take.
"

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 21, 2008 7:40 PM:

" Why in the world would someone feel the need to carry around a loaded and concealed weapon in Coles county? I would think they must be awfully insecure to feel a need to do that. "

Tom Andres wrote on Apr 22, 2008 3:46 AM:

" Steve, I agree with you. You say: "I just believe if a concealed carry law is passed, it should have strict requirements on who is allowed to obtain a permit to do so." I certainly don't have a grasp of all the legal ramifications of gun control/gun freedoms, and I do agree that there should be restrictions on who can own or use a gun. LOL. For example, criminals should not use a gun. I'm just saying that some folks make a quantum leap from gun ownership and gun carry provisions to an automatic presumption of increased levels of gun crime. If law abiding citizens no longer have the right to use guns, the criminal element will be the only ones with guns - which is the situation we have right now in Chicago.
"

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 22, 2008 7:46 AM:

" Steve, when are you going to address the dress question? Now come on, you know you want to. "

1 cav wrote on Apr 22, 2008 7:48 AM:

" Every state that has conceal carry rights have strict requirements. Every state that has CC the homicide rate goes down. No one has the responsibility to protect you and your family,but you. No the police are not responsible,by law to protect you are come when you call them. My wife would like to carry a gun in her car,when making trips alone.
..........
father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:31 PM:
" Today, as President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA), I announced our endorsement of Senator Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. Because the gun issue ......... This is a fake organization to fake out gun owners and others.
father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:31 PM:
" Today, as President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA), I announced our endorsement of Senator Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. Because the gun issue! Obama is a rabid anti-gunner!
"

krusayda wrote on Apr 22, 2008 8:52 AM:

" The bottom line is that either no one should have guns or everyone should have guns. Preferalbly no one, that would include everyone. "

father bob wrote on Apr 22, 2008 10:08 AM:

" father bob wrote on Apr 16, 2008 5:31 PM:
" Today, as President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA), I announced our endorsement of Senator Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. Because the gun issue ......... This is a fake organization to fake out gun owners and others.

i certainly hope it works then "

father bob wrote on Apr 22, 2008 10:09 AM:

" how's that quick-draw practice coming? "

RAK wrote on Apr 22, 2008 11:30 AM:

" Elbert,

You're separating premises that aren't there and making assumption about things based off of movies. I did not say that carrying makes you a primary target. What I said is that OPEN carrying does as the criminal knows you're carrying a firearm and will target you first. Unless you're aware of all 360 degrees of your surroundings at all time, it gives them the initiative. They know what you have. With Concealed Carry, they DON'T know what you have, increasing the chances of taking the initiative. You assume one on one situations. I don't.

As for police and military, you are making a false comparison. They wear uniforms to designate them as such. Plain clothes officers DO regularly carry concealed as well as licensed PI's. Why do you think that is? "

LOKI wrote on Apr 22, 2008 12:47 PM:

" I would probably get a permit if the law ever passed. I doubt i would carry all the time though. No need to be packing at the wal mart or movies. Not long after my family moved to this town my daughter (barely one at the time) was playing in the back yard and a group of stoner morons started yelling and screaming not 15 feet away. They were threatening each other with baseball bats and one of them said he was quote " gonna kill somebody cause i got f***d out of 60 dollars worth of weed" . These idiots could see my daughter there, it was less than 15 feet from them to her and it was all open. My wife took her inside and called the cops and i grabbed my rifle and sat on a bucket right where they could see me and watched the "pants down around my ankles punks". When they finally noticed what i was doing they left real quick. You can bet that if they would have come across the property line it would have been a bad day for them. I dont care if idiots kill each other or beat the crap out of each other or use drugs or sell drugs, bring that crap around my family and I will put them in their place and out of mine. concealed carry or not, it doesnt matter to me, i still have my long guns. "

The Question wrote on Apr 22, 2008 2:38 PM:

" Ah, guns, guns, guns, and the genuises who carry them. What great fun they are.
-------
Man shoots self in alleged road-rage confrontation in Ariz.
Police say a man accidentally shot himself in the stomach after waving his gun in anger at a fellow motorist in Tempe, Ariz.
Tempe police spokesman Brandon Banks says David Lopez is expected to survive and could face charges including disorderly conduct, reckless display of a firearm and felony flight from police.
Banks says Monday that after Lopez shot himself he tried to evade police by driving away but crashed his car and was arrested as he fled on foot.
"

RAK wrote on Apr 22, 2008 3:31 PM:

" And TQ is back w/ more anecdotes. Care to show how the 3 million CCW holders in the US acted that day? "

RAK wrote on Apr 22, 2008 3:37 PM:

" From Ky3 April 9, 2008

Woman holds burglar at gunpoint

A burglar in southern Cedar County found himself in a standoff this week -- not with police but with a 57-year-old woman armed with a pistol and training for a conceal-and-carry permit. She held the burglar at bay until police could arrive to arrest him at the rural home where she found him in the closet.
"

steve senteney wrote on Apr 23, 2008 7:05 AM:

" The following article is in todays Memphis Commercial Appeal newspaper.

I know Mattoon-Charleston are certainly safer communities than Memphis. Shootings at motorist and car jackings are not uncommon in Memphis. I know of no such incidents in Mattoon-Charleston.

Being a monthly visitor to Memphis and a daily reader of the Memphis newspaper, I am very much aware of their crime problem. I feel completely safe in Mattoon-Charleston and have no reason to believe I have a need to carry a concealed weapon here. I am careful where I go in Memphis and what time of day I visit certain areas, I have not decided whether I should become authorized to carry a concealed weapon which I could carry in Memphis. I have had the opportunity for the past 3 years to become certified to carry a concealed weapon as a retired law enforcement officer and have not done so.

Readers can decide for themeselves what relevance this has to whether a concealed handgun carry law should be passed in Illinois. I leave it to others to provide their comments on the article.
Steve Senteney

Armed man repels gunman at gas station
Shotgun-wielding carjacker runs off under defending fire

By Hank Dudding (Contact)
Tuesday, April 22, 2008

A man buying gas in South Memphis early Tuesday surprised an armed carjacker by pulling a gun and firing at least two shots at him.

The carjacker ran away from Haile's BP, 563 E. Mallory, leaving behind a gold Acura that police said had been stolen in a carjacking earlier at 6548 Quince.

Charles Todd waits by his truck after a carjacking attempt early this morning at East Mallory and Lauderdale. Todd pulled a gun and fired two shots at the carjacker, who ran north on Lauderdale, police said.

A man pulls a gun from a gold Acura this morning and tries to carjack another man whos buying gas at the BP at 563 East Mallory in South Memphis. The victim pulls a gun and fires two shots at the suspect, who runs north on Lauderdale.

He tried to hijack me and rob me," said Charles Todd, 64, who had arrived at the station just before 6 a.m. to fill a gas can. "I had to defend myself. He had a rifle."

Shortly before 8 a.m., Todd sat quietly near his black Toyota Tacoma, a lawn mower in the bed, as police investigated the scene. Customers came and went, filling their cars with gas and buying cigarettes and snacks, despite the police cars lining the parking lot.

Berkhanu Fekadu, 38, a clerk at the BP, was inside the store when the shooting occurred.
"I heard the sound of guns, somebody shooting," he said. "I just heard, 'Boom! Boom!'"

Fekadu ran outside in time to see the carjacker running away as Todd hurried to ask Fekadu to call police.
Security video from the store shows the carjacker pulling the gun from the Acura, then confronting Todd with a gun at the gas pumps.

Todd then takes cover behind the pumps as he fires at the dodging suspect, who then runs out of the frame after he has had enough.
Police found no blood at the scene and didn't believe the carjacker was hit by the shots. Officers searched the area nearby but found no sign of the suspect, who ran north on Lauderdale.
Todd has a permit to carry the gun, police said.

Tsegaye Haile, 42, the BP's owner, took the incident in stride, saying he has gotten used to the unusual at the store at East Mallory and Lauderdale.
"This is a hard corner," he said.
-- Hank Dudding: 529-2565

"

Steve Ditko wrote on Apr 23, 2008 11:24 AM:

" And now a message for you Left-Wing nutjobs- Harry Potter, Fatherbob, Dohbaugh, The Question, Coonbug, Lefty and all of the mind-numbed Barrak Hussein Obama disciples et al-

OPERATION CHAOS!!!!!!!!! BABY!
Now say it with me: OPERATION CHAOS!!!!!! LOL!!!
Ditto-Head that fruitcakes.
Long-live Rush Limbaugh, FoxNews and the vast Right-Wing conspiracy! LOL!!! "

Elbert wrote on Apr 23, 2008 12:39 PM:

"
To RAK
Thank you for your reply. I admit that it does confuse me. You state that I am separating premises. Yet, in your first post, you suggested that my logic was flawed. The way I learned to think logically was to state each premise and then reason from them. That way, you check what happens as each premise is added to the syllogism. Thus, I dont understand your criticism.
Second, you state that What I said is that OPEN carrying does as the criminal knows you're carrying a firearm and will target you first. I find that premise fascinating as it suggest that the criminal will target the armed person first and leave the unarmed alone. If true, which I sincerely doubt, that makes me even happier with my position as I dont plan to carry a gun and now, if what you state is true, I wont have to worry about criminals as they will be looking for those who are carrying guns.

I also see that you dont assume one on one situations. Are you suggesting that the attacker might be more than one or that you will always be accompanied by others.
Also, I dont understand your statement that knowing that you are armed will give them the initiative. I thought they had the imitative as they are the ones confronting you and you have to react to them. Then, after you get your gun out of where it has been concealed, I presume that they will react to that, if they dont react as you attempt to get the gun. Conceptually, I would be fascinated to see what would happen in that situation. I, however, reverently hope that the situation never comes to pass, i.e. that you are confronted by someone trying to assault you. I admit to being curious. Have you ever been confronted with the situation you define ?

Though I profoundly disagree with your assessment, I still thank you for your contribution.
"

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 23, 2008 12:55 PM:

" Looks like ole Rush isn't the only one addicted to mind altering drugs. hee hee "

Steve Ditko wrote on Apr 23, 2008 3:00 PM:

" Still beats being addicted to an empty-suit messiah who endlessly blows smoke up the backsides of you mindless drones- HP. How's those Primaries working out for you? Rush is a genius isn't he LOL! "

RAK wrote on Apr 23, 2008 3:51 PM:

" Elbert:

You're now just fabricating things. You claimed that "I find that premise fascinating as it suggest that the criminal will target the armed person first and leave the unarmed alone."

How did you get that out of "the criminal knows you're carrying a firearm and will target you first."?

In a "non one on one" situation, you have someone entering and robbing a store, a single robber attempting to rob a small group, etc." If they see you are armed before they even do anything and still decide to make the attempt, the person Open Carrying will be their first target. You seem to think that criminals are logical.

Yes, I have been mugged by someone w/ a weapon. It was in a situation where I was prevented from being able to defend myself so the criminal KNEW I wouldn't be able to.

Will you answer my question about PI's and plainclothes? "

Elbert wrote on Apr 24, 2008 9:09 AM:

" To RaK
Thank you for your response. I sincerely regret that you were mugged. That is unfortunate.
You are correct, plainclothes officers dont openly carry a weapon. I confess that I dont know why. Having said that, I opine that it may be because they would rather approach the person they want to talk to without them reacting to a weapon. But, in that case, the plainclothes person ise the one doing the approaching and not being approached.
I am surprised, that you failed to read my argument carefully. When, I wrote, I find it fascinating, I could not have imagined that someone would think that the I could refer to anyone other than me. If I had meant you, I would have written that you find it fascinating. Thus, I must conclude that, for whatever reason, you are unable to read and understand what I have written, I shall not write again as you are apparently unable to understand the difference between I , which refers to me and you, which refers to you.
Since, I do not plan to open this thread again, your response, if any will be for the others who might read this thread.
I hope, however, that you remain safe.
"

Ol'Coach wrote on Apr 24, 2008 10:36 AM:

" I want to refer to a situation that happened in Kirkwood, MO, a few months ago. Heres the link: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/DF9F175C2F225844862573E9001BDB9A?OpenDocument

Missouri allows concealed carry for those who meet strict qualifying standards. The meeting took place in an area which is postedno firearms permitted. There was one armed guard in the room in which the meeting took place.

Obviously, with his intent, the gunman had no concern for a posted No Firearms sign! The first person to be shot was the armed guard. One other person had the courage to challenge the shooter after the armed guard was shot, by throwing a chair at the shooter. Needless to say, that didnt work. Total for the day: 4 dead, 2 wounded, not including the eventual killing of the gunman, and not including the armed police officer shot and killed before the gunman ever got to the meeting!

In my opinion this is a great example of the point RAK was making. If a person is openly carrying in a group situation, the armed person becomes the primary target; once disposed of, the rest follow. (What if the person who threw the chair had been legally carrying concealeda distinct possibility that those who were shot after the armed guard would not have been shot!) If a person is openly carrying on the street in a location where CC isnt allowed, that person will simply be bypassed until a choice unarmed person appears.

If CC is allowed, the criminal isnt given the opportunity to make a decision based on what he sees, thus will be less likely to make the attempt at all. Please note, I didnt state the attempt would NOT be made, I stated, less likely to be made.

This man did what he did, regardless of any law designed to prevent itand that will always be true!

"

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 24, 2008 5:07 PM:

" Wow, 42 posts on one thread, must be some sort of a record. Even the looney Bryant Liar usually doesn't get that many in on one single thread. Congratulations, RAK. Well done, old Chuckie Heston would be proud. "

RAK wrote on Apr 24, 2008 5:22 PM:

" "I shall not write again"

Translation: I can't make a coherent argument so will make another nonsensical post including numerous ad hominem statements. "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 26, 2008 10:08 AM:

" I nominate RAK for the Bill O'Reily bloviation award for his record number of posts on one thread. Congratulations, RAK. Now get busy on that new thread, time's a wasting! "

RAK wrote on Apr 28, 2008 10:44 AM:

" See above. "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 28, 2008 7:08 PM:

" Going for a new record, huh? "

RAK wrote on Apr 30, 2008 4:31 PM:

" " Going for a new record, huh? "

Translation: I can't make a coherent argument so will make another nonsensical post including numerous ad hominem statements. " "

Harry Potter wrote on Apr 30, 2008 7:50 PM:

" Now I get it, RAK. You're wanting to carry a gun to fend off the bill collectors from SBLHC, huh? Why didn't you say so in the first place, you could have saved us a lot of trouble, and I might have even agreed with you on that issue. "

RAK wrote on May 1, 2008 8:06 AM:

" Why are you so intent on wanting people to commit violence Harry? With that kind of projection, you definitely shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm. "

Harry Potter wrote on May 1, 2008 11:26 AM:

" Why RAK, are you now saying that fending off predators is violence? I thought that self-protection was the main reason you were pushing for people to go around with a loaded weapon. Why the change of heart? You were doing so good, and now you have to go getting all illogical on me. Listen buddy, if your'e going to set a new record for bloviation, we need to keep this thread alive, so keep posting. I'm certainly doing my part, but you need to hold up your end of the deal, but do try to be a little more consistent with your logic in the future. "

RAK wrote on May 1, 2008 7:55 PM:

" Sorry Harry, you seem confused. You now are claiming that these mythical "bill collectors" are 'predators'? Why are advocating violence? Are you wanting people to go around shooting? Have you stopped taking your medication? "

Harry Potter wrote on May 2, 2008 7:11 AM:

" Sorry RAK, no confusion on my part, and you're the one who brought up the point about your not having enough money to pay your bills. I was just trying to help you out. Why the hostility? I'm just trying to help you out, my friend. Perhaps if you spent a little less money on guns and ammo, you might be able to do a better job of paying your bills. Have you ever considered getting a better paying job? Just a thought. "

RAK wrote on May 2, 2008 8:29 AM:

" Wow Harry, you really like to assume things to encourage people to commit violence. Did I say anything about not being able to pay bills currently? You may want to stop posting off topic BDS rants and go back to school to learn about tenses. Just a thought. But that's probably to advanced for you. "

Harry Potter wrote on May 2, 2008 12:24 PM:

" Perhaps we could take up a collection for you the next time you can't pay your SBLHC bill, RAK. I'll donate five bucks toward the fund. Hang in there, buddy, I hear that Walmart does give raises every so often. "

RAK wrote on May 2, 2008 2:02 PM:

" Aw, isn't that cute. Harry has to make things up to try and make himself feel superior. Have any evidence for your little assertions Harry or is that just what you want to believe to keep your ego intact? "

Harry Potter wrote on May 2, 2008 4:53 PM:

" Now now RAK, you're the one who was claiming poverty a few weeks ago, and why the hostility? I'm only trying to help the less fortunate. I always thought that was a virtue. I notice you didn't deny the place of employment. Everyone should take pride in their employment, even those of you who wear a blue vest on the job. You really should show a little appreciation toward me, after all I have been trying to help you for several days now. I'm working on a couple of ideas, one is a begging jar with your picture on it at the local gas stations, and the other is a combination benefit auction, dance and cookie sale. I'll keep you posted, buddy. I'm doing all that I can for you. "

Harry Potter wrote on May 3, 2008 9:00 AM:

" For a look at RAK's dream world, take a look at the cartoon on today's editorial page. Rather scary....hee hee "

RAK wrote on May 3, 2008 4:41 PM:

" It's really sad that the only thing Harry can do to support his ego is to make up claims and statements by the people he stereotypes. It's not really surprising however when one doesn't have anything but cartoons to support his ideology. "

Early Bird wrote on May 4, 2008 7:55 AM:

" Ouch, looks like you hit a nerve with that one, Harry P. I think the blue vest comment was probably right on target too. You got him on the ropes, don't stop now. "