" Dibs on your house and car! "

" Let's see, Christians have been predicting the imminent "end times" for how long now? Oh, I know. Every year for 2,000 years.
This simple-minded mythology is such a bore. "

" You are right Mr. Cress. Although my faith is different than yours, we are definately in the end times. You seem to be one who will make it though, with your kind heart and caring warning :) God bless you Mr. Cress. May the light of our true creator shine on you and comfort you in the coming tribulations. Love is always the answer. We need more people in this world who really care about each other and you, brother Cress, are a shining example of how it's done. "

" I think this is the wishful thinking of those who are facing the loss of their hopes and dreams and the reality that the only comfort their religion brings them is in the judgment of their righteousness and the damnation of everyone else. Gnostics realize that heaven and hell are right here and now and of our own creation just as salvation is right here and now and also comes through our own efforts, through gnosis. A much better way to live in my opinion. Although it does come with the realization that we and we alone have to shoulder the responsibility for our actions. No one, God or Devil, to take the blame for all that is wrong with this world. "

" Yeah, Q, I’ve been hearing that the end is near for quite a while myself . . . it’s even in the Bible. I’m gettin’ kinda tired of waitin’ for it. That's why I don’t like eschatology – the study of the end times. I figure it’s gonna happen when it’s gonna happen, I don’t know when and couldn’t do anything about it if I did.

So . . . . I reckon the best thing I can do is try to stay ready . . . .

I just hope nobody jumps in here with some kind of numerological "vision" God gives them about - say - 06/07/08 or something like that. Oh my God . . . I may have done it myself!
"

" Hmmmm....perfectly ordinary geological and meteorological fluctuations coupled with people all over the world being jerks. Sounds like business as usual to me, not signs of the apocalypse. "

" We agree this time out, Tooner. And one more thing — this end times nonsense only serves to free the people who believe it from their responsibility for what is happening, and their responsibility for trying to improve the situation. If you're not going to help, then take your stupid cosmic doom and go cry somewhere else. Serious people have work to do in this world. "

" Question for the question, Just how is it that you are helping? "

" So Mr. Cress,

Since you won't need them, you won't have any problems signing over most of your worldly goods to me?

Is your faith strong enough to make that wager? "

" Sound like yo all are thinking you are smarter than Jesus. whateva... "

" If some of the posters actually believe what they have written they are in for a rude surprise when their "time" comes. "

" am i the only one that gets uncomfortable with the whole "the end is near" talk? actually that extends to ANY holier than thou talk and any conversation that has to do with "being saved" i was raised catholic. i stopped going at 13 because i felt i was being told what to do and not allowed to think for myself. i don't worry about the whole heaven and hell concept. i just live my life the best way i know how, and treat others how i'd like to be treated. i see nothing wrong with this approach. hopefully at the end of my life i will be surrounded by family and friends before being lowered into a hole in the ground to become worm food. just like all you other people who sit on your high horses preaching. "

" @Read all over

Let's see, a house in Strasburg and a car....probably a Buick....a 4-door....in grocery-getter-beige?

Yeah, you go ahead and keep them. "

" " Question for the question, Just how is it that you are helping? "
-----
That answer depends on who I really am, doesn't it? "

" " Sound like yo all are thinking you are smarter than Jesus. whateva... "
----
That's no trick at all. Jesus is dead. "

" Ooh, I'm so scared. The economy is getting worse. I think we will all be dead in near time. "

" Al Gore says the survivors in 40 years are going to be cannibals. "

" Ted Turner says the survivors in 40 years are going to be cannibals. "

" TQ, If Jesus is dead what happened to His body. If anyone had found it or stole it they could have just produced it and stopped Christianity at the beginning. "

" TQ, Why does it matter who you really are. Are you saying you are not who you really are. Now talk about a hyprocrite here is a classic example. "

" LOL. 'Greed is taking over, fuel going up, everything is going up.' Tell me when Jesus said this? Scripture and versus please. 'But Jesus is coming soon, with all the signs, Jesus gave us in the Bible to look for to come.' Actually, tell me anything Jesus said about the End of Days? See, he had nothing to do with the writings in Revelations. Another ignorant fool here; nothing new. People have been saying we're at the End of Days for... over 1,500 years. "

" Wow, if we don't have a body... then they must have just magically went to someplace else and been the son of God! I guess that means Thomas Paine, Czar Nicholas, Emilia Earhart, Adolph Hitler, and Jimmy Hoffa are all Divine -- because we don't have those bodies as proof they were really mortal. Absolutely brilliant. "

" pj...For a self thinker and not wanting to be told what to do you sure do rely on the paper and the police to be told what to do.....Not fast enough, not accurate enough, WOULD have paid more attention to my surroundings if I was only told...I truly hope you are blessed with family and friends at the end. And how ironic that the paper will print the obituary and the police will lead your procession...after the fact "

" "If Jesus is dead what happened to His body"

There is significant controversy as to whether he even existed. There are quite a few contemporaries of the authors of the gospels who make no mention whatsoever of Jesus in any of their contributions to the written records of the times. Philo, Seneca, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Justus of Tiberias...the list goes on. Surely the works of a bona fide messiah allegedly meandering about during the same times and, in some cases, the same places would have crept in to at least some of their works.

The thing to remember is that the bible was essentially assembled by a committee (3rd Council of Carthage, anyone?) - the writings that fit the mythology, however loosely, were included and the ones that didn't fit were tossed. "

" Locke, You said, “Jesus had nothing to do with the writings in Revelations”. It is not Revelations it is The Revelation of guess who, Jesus Christ. Jesus reveals Himself to John 60 years after His Crucifixion and Resurrection. Jesus dictates to John and John writes what He said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 1:8
Nearly all of the first 3 chapters are the words of Jesus. He told John, “Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. Rev. 1:19.
In Matthew chapter 24 Jesus directly spoke about the end times.
Rev. 6:1 “Hurt not the wine and the oil” during the end times how could there be more meaningful words relating to inflation of prices and oil today.
"

" Locke, If anyone could have produced the body of Jesus they would have within the first week after He died and was buried and sealed in the tomb. Why would anyone have stolen the body and then not produced it. It wasn’t in the tomb because He was out and moving around in a physical body and He appeared to many people not just one or two. Eleven of the Apostles gave their lives to defend the truth that Jesus rose from the dead. If it was a lie why would they die for it? Locke did any of those people you listed appear to anyone after their death and talk to them and let them touch them and eat with them? Did any of them cook for anyone and perform miracles for them? Did any of them rise into the clouds while a crowd was watching? Did any of them come back and appear again to a responsible person and dictate a book to that person? "

" There have been such foolish prophets of doom throughout the ages, maybe even since the beginning of time. To bad they are all disappointed that the world hasn't ended yet, & probably won't end for millions of years, at least.
Would be nice if these "Chicken Little" people would keep their foolishness to themselves. "

" " TQ, If Jesus is dead what happened to His body. If anyone had found it or stole it they could have just produced it and stopped Christianity at the beginning. "-----
Oh, for pity's sake. The stories in the Bible are myths and metaphors. Jesus died like everybody else, and that's that. "

" yeah, getreal, it's called NEWS. god forbid i think i need to know if there's a knife wielding would-be kidnapper less than 2 blocks from my house. if there's a prison break or jailhouse escape, do the police not warn the general public? being told to think a certain way, or that i HAVE to have kids or "kneel now" "genuflect here" "pray this prayer word for word" is not the same as "hey be on the look out for a maroon van" "

" oh, and i hope they get the info in my obit correct and don't wait until 2 days AFTER my funeral to tell everyone. :D ;) "

" Actully ...Question, He ( Jesus) lives, whehter you believe it or not. It may be hard to concive, but just because you are obviously not a Chistian, that all this is not so. I guess you'll see when you are greeted by....Oh, could it be Satan.."Ahhhhhhhhhhh, it's hot down here, let me go, i want my Mommy, Aggghh". That is the sound of your soul burning in , well i guess you don't belive it that. "

" RAK, did you mean they will be growing cannibis? "

" Mr. Vanatta on an earlier thread i gave you several reasons why Jesus body could have and would have been stolen. The authorities didn't want the resting place to become a shring or his followers didn't want the body desecrated by the authorities or as some Gnostics believed it wasn't Jesus on the cross in the first place.Try another argument. "

" Yeah, yeah, yeah, he lives. The invisible, inaudible, intangible guy who never appears or takes any discernible action but is omnipotent and rules the universe because someone read it once in an ancient book of myths. What tiresome nonsense.
But you're right, I am not a "Chistian." I don't even know what that is. "

" ~WOW!~ Unbelievable, the things people are writing here! We wonder if everyone really believes what they are writing???!!! "

" Mr. Vanatta if Jesus performed all the miracles you said he did in front of the crowds you said witnessed the events why aren't there sources other than the bible that corroborate the stories? With all those witnesses surely some could read and write and would have sent a letter to grandma, scribbled grafitti on a rock, or written a book about it. The only accounts of the miracles appear to be in the Bible and written by his own followers who had something to prove. "

" Krusayda:

Nope, Ted Turned (sorry Al was a typo) said that all plants will die and the survivors will be reduced to cannibalism w/i 40 years.

Guess that's what sleeping w/ Jane Fonda does to a guys mind. "

" WOW!~ Unbelievable, the things people are writing here!
-----
Yes, I agree that organized religion is unbelievable. "

" I think if you really tried RAK, you could turn this thread into a conversation praising the glory of concealed carry. "

" Susan, here are some thoughts about the miracles of Jesus:

http://www.christianorigins.com/miracles.html "

" "I think if you really tried RAK, you could turn this thread into a conversation praising the glory of concealed carry. "
----
Right, Dohbaugh. Jesus always packed heat in his flowing robes, right?
"Turn the other cheek — then, when they're off guard, blast em!! "

" Yes Susan we know you have tried to present evidence that Jesus did not rise from His grave but you have failed to make the point as every one else has and none of it holds up and you have never answered the question as to why if someone took his body they didn’t produce it and nip Christianity in the bud. Many people of that time would have done anything to stop Christianity but they could not they would have loved to produce the dead body of dead Jesus. Many people over the last 2000 years have tried to stop Christianity and they have all failed. You will fail too Susan. When people fight Christianity it just causes it to flourish. Just look at how it has grown in China in the underground churches. Actually it is growing faster in China than here in the US. Give us more persecution Susan TQ and Locke it helps the church to grow. "

" Josephus was not a follower of Jesus and yet wrote about His resurrection and His miracles. The Bible is not just one book but a collection of books written over a number of years by many different men. The New Testament was all written within the first century by these different men who were firsthand eyewitnesses of the miracles of Jesus with plenty of opportunity for living people to refute their testimony but their testimony was not proved wrong.
Then there are the many writings of the church fathers that are not part of the Bible and that speak of His miracles. Susan the evidence is overwhelming in the support of the historical truth of the miracles of Jesus.
"

" Q: Just for the record, Jesus said if somebody smites you on the right cheek to give them the left one also.

He doesn't say anything about what to do if they smite you on the *left* cheek.

I think that may be when the glock comes out!

PS - I'm just kidding, folks. "

" The Question wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:59 AM:

" Let's see, Christians have been predicting the imminent "end times" for how long now? Oh, I know. Every year for 2,000 years.
This simple-minded mythology is such a bore. "
--------------------

(Jude 1:21 NIV) Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

(Jude 1:22 NIV) Be merciful to those who doubt;

(Jude 1:23 NIV) snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

"

" The Question wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:59 AM:

" Let's see, Christians have been predicting the imminent "end times" for how long now? Oh, I know. Every year for 2,000 years.
This simple-minded mythology is such a bore. "
--------------------

(Jude 1:21 NIV) Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

(Jude 1:22 NIV) Be merciful to those who doubt;

(Jude 1:23 NIV) snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

(Mat 24:6 NIV) You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Mat 24:6: Jesus anticipates warfare as a way of life throughout the present age. He cautions the disciples not to be unduly alarmed by these necessities, for the end is not yet.


(Mat 24:7 NIV) Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

(Mat 24:8 NIV) All these are the beginning of birth pains.

(Mat 24:9 NIV) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

(Mat 24:10 NIV) At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

(Mat 24:11 NIV) and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

(Mat 24:12 NIV) Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

(Mat 24:13 NIV) but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

(Mark 13:7 NIV) When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

(Mark 13:8 NIV) Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

(Mark 13:9 NIV) "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.

(Mark 13:10 NIV) And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

(Mark 13:11 NIV) Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

(Mark 13:12 NIV) "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

(Mark 13:13 NIV) All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

(Mat 13:49 NIV) This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

(Mat 13:50 NIV) and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(Mat 13:51 NIV) "Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked. "Yes," they replied.

(Mat 24:36 NIV) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mat 24:36: The exact time of Christ's coming is not to be the concern of God's people (cf. also Jesus' parting words in Acts 1:6-8). That Christ, in His humiliation (incarnation), was not aware of the time is not a denial of His deity, but an evidence of His functional subordination and temporary surrender of the use of certain attributes while living a life of faith and dependence upon the Father.


(Mat 24:37 NIV) As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Mat 24:37: (vv. 37,38) Noah's day was characterized by preoccupation with trivial matters and neglect of spiritual concerns. Oblivious to the judgment of God, the inhabitants of the earth were caught unprepared by the Flood. Such a state of unpreparedness will exist when Jesus returns.


(Mat 24:38 NIV) For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

(Mat 24:39 NIV) and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Mat 24:39: (vv. 39-42) The context of the passage would seem to indicate that the judgment of Christ's return and not the rapture of the church is in view. The "one taken" (vv. 40, 41) is taken in judgment; the one remaining is blessed to enter with the Lord into kingdom blessings. Indeed, the rapture of believers (1 Thess. 4:13-18), it would seem, is not discussed in Matt. 24; 25.


(Mat 24:40 NIV) Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

(Mat 24:41 NIV) Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

(Mat 24:42 NIV) "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

(Mat 24:43 NIV) But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

(Mat 24:44 NIV) So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

(Luke 21:8 NIV) He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.

(Luke 21:9 NIV) When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

(Luke 21:10 NIV) Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

(Luke 21:11 NIV) There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

(Luke 21:12 NIV) "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.

(Luke 21:13 NIV) This will result in your being witnesses to them.

(Luke 21:14 NIV) But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves.

(Luke 21:15 NIV) For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.

(Luke 21:16 NIV) You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.

(Luke 21:17 NIV) All men will hate you because of me.

(Luke 21:18 NIV) But not a hair of your head will perish.

Luke 21:18: There is no contradiction to the previous statement (v. 16) that some of them will be put to death. Jesus is not promising escape from death to the disciples or anyone else. The proverbial statement means that they will be in the care of God until their last hour. Their destiny is in God's hands, not men's.


(Luke 21:19 NIV) By standing firm you will gain life.

(Luke 21:20 NIV) "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Luke 21:20: Before the Romans could capture Jerusalem in A.D. 70, they had to lay a long siege to it.


"

" Mr. Vanatta the books of the New Testament were not written by people who personally knew or witnessed Jesus actions. They are secondhand accounts. You can't produce a body if there never was one, now can you? Also if you didn't want the man to become a martyr you would dispose of the body and hope his memory disappeared into the shades of time, which as time has shown wasn't a good strategy. Also immediately after his death the emphasis wasn't on his miraculous resurrection, that part of the story was added later when it became necessary to justify his divinity. Your beliefs are just that beliefs, not TRUTHS. You asked for possible explanations and I gave you some. I don't expect you to believe them. It just shows that your questions aren't valid. The Bible can be classed as one book with many chapters or many books in one compendium. Either way it is the same, put together by specific people for specific purposes. It is still a good book even if it isn't absolute TRUTH. You can't make it anything other than what it is, no matter how hard you try. "

" You can do better than that, Vanatta. The Josephus bit is considered by many scholars, including the Encyclopedia Britannica’s scholars as "an insertion by later Christian copyists." You must know that. It's a fraud. Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defenses against paganism, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words. "

" @cd

Wow, that's a lot of scriptures. There exists, however, a fundamental point that you and other prolific bible-quoters are missing. For people who don't believe that the bible is a source of divinely inspired wisdom from an all-powerful god, those verses carry about as much weight as if I quoted Norse mythology to you. Interesting literature perhaps, but mythology nonetheless. "

" Smirking Devil wrote on Apr 3, 2008 2:55 PM:

" @cd

Wow, that's a lot of scriptures. There exists, however, a fundamental point that you and other prolific bible-quoters are missing. For people who don't believe that the bible is a source of divinely inspired wisdom from an all-powerful god, those verses carry about as much weight as if I quoted Norse mythology to you. Interesting literature perhaps, but mythology nonetheless. "
- - - - -

cd wrote on Apr 3, 2008 1:47 PM:

" The Question wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:59 AM:

" Let's see, Christians have been predicting the imminent "end times" for how long now? Oh, I know. Every year for 2,000 years.
This simple-minded mythology is such a bore. "
--------------------

(Jude 1:21 NIV) Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

***(Jude 1:22 NIV) Be merciful to those who doubt; ***

(Jude 1:23 NIV) snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."
-------------
Devil,
Did you miss Jude 1:22?

I'll live believing in God and his son Jesus. If he doesn't exist, I've still had a good life and a much better chance of heaven.
You can live as though God and Jesus does not exist, and never did. But I don't like the idea of what you'll reap if your wrong. At that time, I don't believe you'll have that smirk on your face.
You know that Satan...the Devil is a fallen angel from heaven? If God and Jesus don't exist, then Satan must not exist. So why did you pick nickname of someone that doesn't exist? By taking the name of 'Devil' indicates that you recognize the exixtence of God and Jesus. "

" Give it up, cd. Smirking Devil is a rational person who is immune to myth. "

" CD read Matthew 25:31 commonly titled the judgment of the gentiles. According to this passage at the end of times people will be divided into two groups, not based on whether they believed in Jesus or God but solely by their actions. So all those non-believers have nothing fear as long as they try to lead "goodly" lives. If the bible is absolute TRUTH as you and others claim then you will have to accept even heathens like us that behave "goodly" will make it and not Christians that behave badly. "

" Funny how the religious fanatics always end up threatening people with hell. It's an immature retort that reveals the poverty of their intellectual arguments. "

" Seen on a bumper - If You Want a Nation Ruled By Religion, Move to Iran "

" shumphreys wrote on Apr 3, 2008 4:52 PM:

" CD read Matthew 25:31 commonly titled the judgment of the gentiles. According to this passage at the end of times people will be divided into two groups, not based on whether they believed in Jesus or God but solely by their actions. So all those non-believers have nothing fear as long as they try to lead "goodly" lives. If the bible is absolute TRUTH as you and others claim then you will have to accept even heathens like us that behave "goodly" will make it and not Christians that behave badly. "



The Question wrote on Apr 3, 2008 5:29 PM:

" Funny how the religious fanatics always end up threatening people with hell. It's an immature retort that reveals the poverty of their intellectual arguments. "

----
(Rom 1:16 NIV) I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Rom 1:16: "Gospel" is the translation of euangelion (Gk.), which combines angelia (Gk.), meaning "message," with the Greek prefix eu, meaning "well" or "good." Hence, the gospel is a "good message." The precise nature of the Christian gospel is nowhere more succinctly stated than in 1 Cor. 15:3, 4. The essential facts of the gospel include (1) the incarnation of the Son of God, (2) His atoning death on the cross for our sins, (3) His victorious resurrection for our justification, and (4) the promise of His return for His people. An additional and inevitable thrust of this gospel is the appeal to respond to those truths in repentance and faith.


(Rom 1:17 NIV) For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Rom 1:17: The phrase "from faith to faith" has been variously interpreted. It has been understood as meaning: (1) from the faith of the O.T. to that of the N.T.; (2) from the faith of the preacher to that of the hearers; (3) from God's faithfulness to man's faith; or (4) from a young faith to a mature faith. Literally, the words can be translated "out of faith unto faith." The fourth interpretation is the most probable.


(Rom 1:18 NIV) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Rom 1:18: God's wrath focuses on those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." God's wrath is not like human wrath. It is not an uncontrolled explosion of anger but a settled and consistent holy reaction to that which is contrary to the nature and will of God. His wrath is of a personal sort, directed toward offenses against Himself ("ungodliness") and toward offenses against others ("unrighteousness of men").


(Rom 1:19 NIV) since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Rom 1:19: A naive notion that those who have never explicitly heard the gospel are not under condemnation is corrected in this passage. That which may be intuitively known about God has been placed in the minds (heart, conscience, cf. 2:15) of all men by God. This does not refer to the cosmos itself, which is an additional witness (Ps. 19:1; Acts 14:17). Rather, the "invisible attributes" of God are clearly seen and comprehended, stressing two great truths: (1) the fact of the existence of the godhead or deity, and (2) the eternal power of that deity. The apostle's conclusion is that all men are, therefore, without excuse (v. 20).


(Rom 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

(Rom 1:21 NIV) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:21: (vv. 21-23) Paul continues the theme of the accountability of all men by listing four ways in which men have demonstrated their rebellion against God: (1) Although men realize God's existence, they do not glorify Him (v. 21). (2) Men are universally guilty of ingratitude to God (v. 21). (3) In the process of time men become increasingly "futile" ("empty" or "vain") in their imaginations, darkening their minds (v. 21). (4) Finally, the process climaxes in a tendency to distort the concept of God and of His creation (v. 23). From this develops idolatry (v. 23) and distortion, even of the biological designs of the eternal God (1:24-27).


(Rom 1:22 NIV) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

(Rom 1:23 NIV) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

(Rom 1:24 NIV) Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Rom 1:24: (vv. 24-28) Three times God is said to give sinful man over to the evil desires of his heart (vv. 24, 26, 28). Within these declarations is a note of sorrow, together with a pronouncement of judgment.
(v. 24) Homosexuality is pictured by Paul not as the ultimate sin but as the ultimate distortion of God's creative genius. When the human family indulges in sexual behavior antithetical to that for which they were biologically, psychologically, and emotionally designed, the "futile" imagination has so "darkened" the foolish heart (v. 21) that it is virtually impossible to view anything as God intended. To these awesome sins of homosexuality and sodomy, Paul applies six terms of evaluation: (1) "uncleanness" (v. 24), (2) "lusts" (v. 24), (3) "dishonor" (v. 24), (4) "vile passions" (v. 26), (5) "against nature" (v. 26), and (6) "shameful" (v. 27). After listing a host of other iniquities, Paul concludes the section with the promise of the certainty of God's judgment against all such sin. Additional passages demonstrate that homosexuality is a hideous sin which falls under the scope of God's judgment (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; 1 Cor. 6:9).


(Rom 1:25 NIV) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
- - - -
That also includes those that claim to be 'Christians', although they that is all they do, claim. No one is perfect except Jesus, so faithful Christians still make mistakes.
Those that only claim to be Christian are in no better circumstances than the godless goats.
- - - -
(Rom 1:28 NIV) Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

(Rom 1:29 NIV) They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

(Rom 1:30 NIV) slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

(Rom 1:31 NIV) they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

(Rom 1:32 NIV) Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Q: I'm not saying that, but God's Word.

(Mat 5:11 NIV) "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

(John 15:20 NIV) Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

(John 15:21 NIV) They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.

(John 15:22 NIV) If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

(John 15:23 NIV) He who hates me hates my Father as well.

(John 15:24 NIV) If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

God Bless you Question.

"

" @cd
"I'll live believing in God and his son Jesus. If he doesn't exist, I've still had a good life and a much better chance of heaven."

That's textbook Pascal's Wager (look it up). I didn't think anyone would actually posit that as a legitimate argument. If you're merely betting on the existence of god and living as such simply to increase your odds at heaven, wouldn't an omniscient god see through such a transparent charade. From what I've read of his temper, he wouldn't stand for such insincerity.

As for the name choice, there are multiple connotations of the word "devil" - many of them non-theological. Dictionary.com has some nice ones.

I also believe strongly in deviled eggs, though I suspect there's nothing satanic about them. "

" Dohbaugh:

Why are you so obsessed w/ firearms? I didn't mention them here at all. "

" CD my one passage trumps 20 or 40 or how many have you put out of yours! Anyway you look at it you can't deny Matthew 25:31. All good heathens will be judged the same as all Christians, both the good ones and the not so good ones, by our actions towards our fellow man. "

" Yeah! Take that CD. In your face mofo. "

" What did Jesus and the Bible tell us about the dinosaurs?

It just seem funny they are never mentioned in any religion.

I’m sure that many times when thing have been tough over the last 2000 years people have thought the end was near.

I think things can and will get much worse before Jesus returns.

Many phony Christians (the ones that scream sweet baby Jesus then mercilessly persecute and judge their fellow man) will reap what they sown.

Yes, I would say than a great many of those (I’m better than you because I go to church or because I believe in God) would be going to hell themselves.
"

" Look...there have been worse times than these. The plagues, the holocaust, World Wars, the Inquisition, the birth of Rosie O'Donnell.
The bible says it will come like a thief in the night. We will not know when it is coming. I bet this is the same debate that has been happening since year 1 A.D.
You have 2 choices. Ignore the possibility that it could happen any moment and just keep living...or get your house in order and make amends with your God and your loved ones. Arguing about it...just causes headaches. "

" shumphreys wrote on Apr 3, 2008 7:17 PM:

" CD my one passage trumps 20 or 40 or how many have you put out of yours! Anyway you look at it you can't deny Matthew 25:31. All good heathens will be judged the same as all Christians, both the good ones and the not so good ones, by our actions towards our fellow man. "
-----------------------


(Mat 25:31 NIV) "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

========
Mat 25:31: (vv. 31-46) The sheep and goat judgment should not be confused with other judgments (cf. Rev. 20:11-15, note), e.g., the judgment seat of Christ (bema, Gk.) ^^^^^^^for believers only,^^^^^^^ which occurs immediately following the departure of the church at the revelation of Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 3:13, note); or the Great White Throne judgment for unbelievers, which occurs at the conclusion of the millennial age (Rev. 20:11-15). This judgment of sheep and goats is at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation to determine who may enter the millennial or kingdom age. The basis of the judgment is the relationship of men to Christ, as demonstrated by their treatment of Israel during the Great Tribulation (vv. 34-46). ^^^^^Those who are saved (the "sheep") enter the kingdom prepared for them (v. 34), while the lost (the "goats") are turned away into eternal punishment^^^^^ (v. 46). The kingdom consists only of the saved at the outset of that final age.
=====

(Mat 25:32 NIV) All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

(Mat 25:33 NIV) He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

(Mat 25:34 NIV) "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

(Mat 25:35 NIV) For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

(Mat 25:36 NIV) I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

(Mat 25:37 NIV) "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

(Mat 25:38 NIV) When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

(Mat 25:39 NIV) When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

(Mat 25:40 NIV) "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

(Mat 25:41 NIV) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
=====
Mat 25:41: Hell was not prepared for men. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels. However, men may choose to spend eternity there by failing to respond to the Creator's saving plan, thus leaving God no alternative except to confine ^^^^^those unbelievers^^^^^ to the place of punishment.
====

(Mat 25:42 NIV) For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

(Mat 25:43 NIV) I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

(Mat 25:44 NIV) "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

(Mat 25:45 NIV) "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

(Mat 25:46 NIV) "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
-----------------
Maybe you ought to look again on those Trumps.

"

" God Bless You, The Original Truth. "

" Another scripture in the bible says this : "that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (I Peter 3). The reason why Christ is delaying his coming is because it is his desire that all would come to the knowledge of the truth and realize their need for a Saviour. And just so you know, all the intelligent people in the world can say that Jesus is dead but those who know him personally know that Jesus is alive and well! "

" "These are the best of times and the worst of times." In the US the standard of living is higher than most other countries. YET there is hunger, unemployment,and despair. In the US most people until recently had one of the longest life expectancies on the planet. NOW the younger couch potato generation is facing a shorter life expectancy than their parents. Birthrates, deathrates, health care, infant mortality rates are not equal across races in our country. A recent study showed that in some cities less than half of the students graduate from high school and in a few big cities that number drops to only 1/4 of the students graduating from high school. YET compared to many countries those numbers look good. BUT there is always more that we can do. Alot depends on how you look at things and the effort YOU are willing to make to make things better rather than sitting around waiting for the end times. "

" SH, you are taking this passage totally out of context (Matt. 25:31-46.) If you go back to where this teaching of Jesus begins (24:3) Jesus was responding to two questions that His desciples ask Him: What will be the sign of your coming, and What will be the sign of the end of the age? When He gets to the passage of which you speak He is referring to three types of people, sheep (believers), goats (unbelievers), and brethern (the Jewish people). He is not saying that people would be saved by their behavior, but that their behavior would reflect what they did or did not believe. Keep everything in context. You are an intelligent woman, but I believe that you are depending on your own intellect to get you to heaven which is something that the Bible which you do not believe in warns about. "

" To insanewayne. The Bible does speak of dinosaurs, however it doesn't call them dinosaurs because the word "dinosaur" was not coined until the year 1841 by British anatomist and first superintendent of the British museum, Sir Richard Owen. The Bible was written centuries before that. The Hebrew words "tan", "tannim", "tannin", and "tannoth" are sometimes translated "dragon" as in Psalms 74:13-14, Psalms 91:13, Isa 51:9, Jer 51:34, Eze 29:3. Sometimes they are referred to as "leviathan", behemoth", or "flying serpent". It's all right there. "Seek and ye shall find."
"

" AMEN hanrobec! :-) "

" *LOL!* Love the Rosie O'Donnell comment! "

" @sapient

Are you actually suggesting that dinosaurs lived recently enough to have been mentioned in the bible? As in, just a few thousand years ago? Even most christians can't seriously entertain the ideas of Young Earth Creationists (YECs).

"Leviathan" is widely held to refer to a crocodile, while "behemoth" was most likely an elephant.

This thread has been a real gold mine! Pascal's Wager and a real live YEC all in the same discussion. Sweet!
"

" Sorry Sapient you are trying to interpret a passage to suit your bias. When the term "like" is used in a sentence it is obvious that the writer/speaker is using an example that people might be familiar with. It is called an analogy. There isn't any reason to think that sheep are believers and goats unbelievers other than your personal prejudice and as a way to interpret a passage that doesn't fit your agenda. AND by the way you may not know anything about sheep herding but at roundup time the sheep and goats are separated into two separate groups, not because the sheep are better than the goats.But because something different is about to happen to each group.Also since the goats are the guardians of the flock considered to be more intelligent, able to fight off predators and smart enough to seek shelter one might even think that their rugged self-centered independence is why they were put in the left hand group. They in some ways have a mind of their own whereas the sheep all too often don't seem to have any mind. So be careful about trying to draw too much out of an analogy you can get into serious trouble. "

" CD you should read what you quoted. No where in that passage does it say anything about believers or unbelievers it is all about "doing unto others, how you treat your fellow man, the least of these". Rightousness isn't based on believing in Jesus divinity or even on believing in God. If it was the passage would have stated that up front. We can interpret passages to suit our purposes. I take this one at face value.Isn't it funny how fundamentalist insist on a literal reading of a scripture when it suits their agenda and then reject a literal reading of a passage when it doesn't fit? Curious. "

" Imagine my surprise to read what shumphreys wrote on Apr 3, 2008 2:29 PM:

“Mr. Vanatta the books of the New Testament were not written by people who personally knew or witnessed Jesus actions. They are secondhand accounts.”

--------------------------
Did I miss something? Wasn’t Matthew written by a feller named Matthew who was once a tax collector but became one of Jesus’ disciples?

Wasn’t the author of the Gospel of John a guy named John who was known as “the disciple that Jesus loved”?

Yeah . . . I’m right . . . .they were! I’m thinking disciples personally knew Jesus and witnessed Jesus’ actions. They were with him for three years.
"

" Sapient I have no interest in going to an imaginary heaven. I depend on my intellect to help me understand this world and to do what I can to make this place a better place, or as they say "heaven on earth." As I said in an earlier post heaven and hell are right here and right now and of our own making. When the end comes we will all return to that primordial stew pot from whence we all came. "

" Since the world is going to end, will anyone here help me legalize my pet skunk? Http://www.skunklaw.com
My having a pet skunk is in the here and now, and will make me much more likely to feel I can change the world for the better. So, if I can get some help legalizing pet skunks, imagine what could be done to make the world a better place. "

" To all you unbelievers out there, if you're right and we are wrong, when we die we are no worse off; but if we are right and you are wrong, when you die you are more trouble than you could ever imagine. "

" Sapient,

What about all those other religions out there?What if one of those are "right"? You could be in more trouble for false worship than a 'non-believer". What you're presenting is Pascal's Wager and is considered a false dichotomy. "

" To all you unbelievers out there, if you're right and we are wrong, when we die we are no worse off; but if we are right and you are wrong, when you die you are more trouble than you could ever imagine.
-----
And if you're wrong about Zeus, Sappy, he's going to toast your gullible behind with a thunderbolt. Another possibility to keep you awake nights. "

" @sapient

See my earlier post about Pascal's Wager (look it up). If you're simply living according to the bible on the chance your god exists and you'll go to heaven and receive untold reward, then you're essentially making a bet on the existence of god. The stakes? Your eternal life.

Wouldn't your omnipotent god see right through such insincerity and burn you eternally as he is wont to do?

Do you actually mean to suggest that you only live your life as you do in case your god is real in an effort to receive heavenly rewards and avoid destruction? "

" Good heavens, what a discussion! I'll do like Question and throw out some quotations:

"The simple disproof, the effective challenging, of the fact of the Resurrection would have dealt a death-blow to Christianity. And they had every opportunity of disproof, if it were possible."--E.H. Day

"The empty tomb is a sine qua non of the resurrection....Even if the disciples failed to check the empty tomb, the Jewish authorities could have been guilty of no such oversight. When therefore the disciples began to preach the resurrection in Jerusalem and people responded, and when religious authorities stood helplessly by, the tomb must have been empty. The simple fact that the Christian fellowship, founded on belief in Jesus' resurrection, came into existence and flourished in the very city where he was executed and buried is powerful evidence for the historicity of the empty tomb."--W.L. Craig

Those opposed to this new belief in Jerusalem were unable to deny the empty tomb. Those who knew Jesus (as well as those who were taught by them, such as the early Church fathers) were convinced enough by whatever happened to die in support of it.

"

" Some of the most important early witnesses to New Testament manuscripts among the Church fathers were:

Clement of Rome, A.D. 95--disciple of the apostles, appointed by Peter, quotes from Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, I Corinthians, Titus, Hebrews and I Peter; "had the preaching of the apostles still echoing in his ears and their doctrine in front of his eyes."

Ignatius, A.D. 70-110--Bishop of Antioch, knew the apostles, was martyred, his seven epistles contain quotations from several N.T. books (Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, I Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I and II Thessalonians, I and II Timothy, James, and I Peter.

Polycarp, A.D. 70-156, Bishop of Smyrna, disciple of apostle John, martyred at age 86.

Barnabas (c. A.D. 70), Hermas (c. A.D. 95), Tatian (c. A.D. 170) and Irenaeus (c. A.D. 170) all quoted from books making up the New Testament



"

" Susan I have noticed you have used Matthew 25:31 several times in other threads in the past and now again to try to make the point that people are judged on their works and not on their faith. Sapient did a pretty good job of commenting on that passage but there is a very important point to this passage that you all are missing. I know you already have a mindset that I am not going to change but here goes anyway and this can’t be said in a short post. Jesus not only will judge people but He will also judge nations. And if you look at the beginning of this passage and I will paste some it here so you won’t have to look it up.

Matt. 25:31 through Matt. 25:32 (NKJV)
31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

This makes some important points:
The Son of Man (Jesus) is coming
He will sit in His glory on a throne of judgment
He will judge the nations (all the nations will be gathered before Him)

This passage is not about judging individual people it is about judging nations.
The nations (these will be gentile nations) will be judged on the way they have treated the Jewish people.
The brethren (“inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me” verse 40) are Jesus’ brothers the Jews.
There will still be nations in the eternal kingdom of God see Revelation 21:24-26

With this in mind how should America be treating Israel the Jewish nation?

Jesus presides at several different judgments.

Believers and non-believers are judged on their works by the good and the bad things they have done while living on the earth. Yes Susan on their works!
But they are judged in different judgments. A believers judgment and a non-believers

The believers in Jesus Christ will be judged at the Judgment seat of Christ referenced in
2 Cor. 5:10 (NKJV)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
When Paul says “we” and “all” he means himself and the church because that is who he is writing to in 2 Cor. The church at Corinth who are believers in Jesus Christ.

Believers will be judged to decide what their rewards will be or what their loss of rewards will be based on their works.
I don’t expect to fare well in this judgment as far as rewards. Even Billy Graham said he doesn’t expect to do well in this judgment. So that doesn’t look good for me.

People actually make the choice of which one of these judgments they will go to by believing by faith or not believing in Jesus as The Son of God
It just sounds too easy doesn’t it?

The unbelievers will be judged in the Great White Throne Judgment

Rev. 20:11-12 (NKJV)
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

These are the dead (meaning the non believers) where do they come from? They are the ones who did not share in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6

They are of the 2nd resurrection from death and Hades
Note in verse 12 they are judged according to their works but this will be for how great their suffering will be. Yes Susan judged on their works

There will be different levels of suffering in Hell but notice all the people at this judgment are thrown into the lake of fire verse 15.

You may think if God is love He would not send anyone to Hell.
You don’t think Hitler deserves Hell?
But you think you are better than Hitler.
Where would the dividing line be? Somewhere between you and Hitler?
All on one side of the line go to Hell and on the other side go to some good place
No one can be good enough to go to God’s heaven
One can only get into God’s heaven by His Grace and He made a way
Through His Son Jesus Christ

Susan don’t try to use Matthew 25:31 as Biblical proof that people go to heaven or hell based on their works instead of their faith in Jesus Christ. I know you don’t believe the Bible but when you say that it really shows your ignorance of the Bible. Maybe you ought to consider the Bible as Truth and then it would be meaningful to you.
"

" Can't remember if I posted this or not!

"The nations (these will be gentile nations) will be judged on the way they have treated the Jewish people.
The brethren (“inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me” verse 40) are Jesus’ brothers the Jews."

Mr. Vanatta, I respectfully offer another interpretation of this passage (based upon scholarship from both my NIV and New Geneva Study Bibles). The NIV mentions two possible interpretations; one of them is basically what you have said, that the "least of these my brethren" are the Jewish people.

However, there is another popular interpretation--"the least of these my brethren" are Christ's disciples. The judgment of the nations depends on how they respond to Christians and to the gospel, not only because it is through the testimony of Christians that the Gentiles can hear and believe (Rom. 10:14) but also because Christ identifies with his people. Their suffering is His suffering, and compassion shown to them is compassion shown to Him.

This interpretation is mentioned in the NIV and is the only one discussed in the New Geneva Study Bible--it's also found in my Catholic Study Bible, so it is likely the favored interpretation of this passage of Scripture.

This is important because, as you say, "With this in mind how should America be treating Israel the Jewish nation?" I would say, do not allow an interpretation which is debatable influence what you believe America's foreign policy should be. "

" In fact, there is serious reason to doubt where Jesus even existed. So that would explain the lack of a body. Nobodies have no bodies.
"What appears most revealing of all, comes not from what people later wrote about Jesus but what people did not write about him. Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!
If, indeed, the Gospels portray a historical look at the life of Jesus, then the one feature that stands out prominently within the stories shows that people claimed to know Jesus far and wide, not only by a great multitude of followers but by the great priests, the Roman governor Pilate, and Herod who claims that he had heard "of the fame of Jesus" (Matt 14:1)". One need only read Matt: 4:25 where it claims that "there followed him [Jesus] great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jersulaem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordon." The gospels mention, countless times, the great multitude that followed Jesus and crowds of people who congregated to hear him. So crowded had some of these gatherings grown, that Luke 12:1 alleges that an "innumberable multitude of people... trode one upon another." Luke 5:15 says that there grew "a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear..." The persecution of Jesus in Jerusalem drew so much attention that all the chief priests and scribes, including the high priest Caiaphas, not only knew about him but helped in his alleged crucifixion. (see Matt 21:15-23, 26:3, Luke 19:47, 23:13). The multitude of people thought of Jesus, not only as a teacher and a miracle healer, but a prophet (see Matt:14:5).
So here we have the gospels portraying Jesus as famous far and wide, a prophet and healer, with great multitudes of people who knew about him, including the greatest Jewish high priests and the Roman authorities of the area, and not one person records his existence during his lifetime? If the poor, the rich, the rulers, the highest priests, and the scribes knew about Jesus, who would not have heard of him?
Then we have a particular astronomical event that would have attracted the attention of anyone interested in the "heavens." According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." Yet not a single mention of such a three hour ecliptic event got recorded by anyone, including the astronomers and astrologers, anywhere in the world, including Pliny the Elder and Seneca who both recorded eclipses from other dates. Note also that, for obvious reasons, eclipses can't occur during a full moon (passovers always occur during full moons), Nor does a single contemporary person write about the earthquake described in Matthew 27:51-54 where the earth shook, rocks ripped apart (rent), and graves opened.
Matthew 2 describes Herod and all of Jerusalem as troubled by the worship of the infant Jesus. Herod then had all of the children of Bethlehem slain. If such extraordinary infanticides of this magnitude had occurred, why didn't anyone write about it?
Some apologists attempt to dig themselves out of this problem by claiming that there lived no capable historians during that period, or due to the lack of education of the people with a writing capacity, or even sillier, the scarcity of paper gave reason why no one recorded their "savior." But the area in and surrounding Jerusalem served, in fact, as the center of education and record keeping for the Jewish people. The Romans, of course, also kept many records. Moreover, the gospels mention scribes many times, not only as followers of Jesus but the scribes connected with the high priests. And as for historians, there lived plenty at the time who had the capacity and capability to record, not only insignificant gossip, but significant events, especially from a religious sect who drew so much popular attention through an allegedly famous and infamous Jesus.
Take, for example, the works of Philo Judaeus who's birth occurred in 20 B.C.E. and died 50 C.E. He lived as the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time and lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus "the Christ." Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's (4? B.C.E. - 65 C.E.) writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder (23? - 79 C.E.).
If, indeed, such a well known Jesus existed, as the gospels allege, does any reader here think it reasonable that, at the very least, the fame of Jesus would not have reached the ears of one of these men?"
You can read more at: http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm "

" It is a small minority of scholars who believe that a historical Jesus never existed at all. For me, to believe that Jesus never existed would certainly be stepping out in faith.

About Josephus, who was mentioned earlier--Jesus is mentioned twice in his work Antiquities of the Jews. There doesn't seem to be much dispute about the brief passage that refers to James, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." This statement is widely accepted as legitimate. The other, much longer passage is believed to contain material added in later by a scribe, yet most (not all) modern scholars believe that some of what was written was truly penned by Josephus.

According to a Wickipedia reference, "There is one main reason to believe Josephus did originally mention Jesus and that the passage was later edited by a Christian into the form we have now. There is a passage from a 10th century Arab historian named Agapius of Manbij who was a Christian. He cites Josephus as having written:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous and many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not desert his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

The text from which Agapius quotes is more conservative and is closer to what one would expect Josephus to have written. The similarities between the two passages imply a Christian author later removed the conservative tone and added interpolations."
"

" Pliny the Younger and Tacitus, considered a reputable historian, make references to Jesus. Again, see the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Though some scholars question the legitimacy of Tacitus' comments, most do not.

I would think records of Jesus would be extremely difficult to find. To the Romans, he was a nobody.

Also, Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70 after years of unrest. According to Josephus, 1,100,000 people were killed during the seige, most of them Jewish. 97,000 were captured and enslaved. Many fled to areas around the Mediterranean. I would guess that a lot of knowledge died with the people who perished there.

Yet, Christianity spread beyond Jerusalem; it survived and flourished, underground for the most part during those early years. That in itself is amazing. "

" Spring is here and I am filled with folly so I will be signing off until next winter. The discussion has been interesting. Thanks Question for your info. Thanks Vicky and Tammer for your input. Thanks to the rest pros and cons for keeping the discussion lively. Have a happy growing season. Susan H. "

" I suspect Jesus existed, but was markedly different from the person described in the biblical accounts written much later. The synoptic gospels, after all, weren't until between 60 and 115 AD.
But I agree with Susan, time to bow out. I'm sure we three shall meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in rain. "

" I'm with you guys, I think it's time to let the villiage idiot, Doh, have this site. I hope everyone has a great summer. Later! "

" Hey, where is everybody going? You can't leave me like this!

Best wishes & hope our paths cross again soon.... "

" P.S. Josephus is widely regarded to be a fraud. "

" VTucker, I'm still here, I was on the road for a couple of days after I wrote that last post and couldn't respond till now. Interesting comments you made about the different interpretations of Mat 25 and the brethren. I know there are different views. As far as how we should treat Israel though that is not the only passage that gives us reason that we should back Israel there are many. Genesis 12:3 for instance: God's promises to Abram, “I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you.” I also know that not everyone wants to have as literal an understanding of the Scriptures as I do. I just think that is the only way to take the Bible. Gen. 12:3 is not the only place though for God does make it very clear to whom He is giving the land and then God describes the boundaries of the land He gives to Abraham and then to Isaac and to Jacob God reiterates His promise. I believe when God said to Abram, “And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” He was directly referring that it would be through Abram’s descendents that the Savior of the world would come. The import that God gave to keeping the genealogies of the Israelites seems to indicate that He wanted to be sure everyone knows that He kept His promise to Abram. Nations that have turned against the Jews have suffered disaster Rome, Spain, Germany for examples. America has generally been a friend to the Jews and to Israel after Israel returning to nation status. America has been blessed. Should America change in it’s support of Israel just because many people have different ideas. In the OT many of the Jews had different ideas than obeying God and they came to disaster. Isn’t this why we have the OT history to make that point? It is not popular with liberal people but it is a Biblical fact that God disciplines even His people. I think it really merits some thought. "

" Good morning, Mr. Vanatta, it's nice to see you back. I thought of you yesterday when I read an article about how people in the Middle East are converting from Islam to Christianity in record numbers. Though this is not the article I read, the link below gives similar information:

http://returnnow.org/2008/03/27/the-big-untold-story-in-the-middle-east-muslims-converting-to-faith-in-jesus-christ-in-record-numbers-2008-update/

Apparently, many Muslims convert because they have dreams or visions about Christ. I remember reading that years ago, and it's interesting to see that this activity has increased in recent years.

On other threads, you have talked about the threat of Islam and terrorism. It seemed you were saying that we need to blow them away before they blow us up. I believe that God is in control, and that to follow Christ's teachings is what we as Christians need to do.

Back to your point about Israel: I don't believe the United States should abandon Israel, but neither do I believe we should look the other way when Israel treats the Palestinians unfairly. I guess I'm saying we should support them--they may be our only true ally in the region--but not with a blind eye. "

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Apr 7, 2008 10:51 PM:"""In the OT many of the Jews had different ideas than obeying God and they came to disaster. Isn’t this why we have the OT history to make that point? It is not popular with liberal people but it is a Biblical fact that God disciplines even His people."""

and just who are his people?...hindus? muslims? Jews? christians? buddhism? taoist? shintos? "

" VTucker, Thanks for the link I like the website. That has to be because of God working that Palestinians while under pressure will turn to Jesus Christ even at the risk of persecution from their own people. It is a long story of the struggle for the land even the name “Palestine” is contentious because in the Bible it is only found 4 times 3 as Palestina. Never in the NT. While Canaan, or the Promised Land, or Israel and Judah are used many times. Palestina actually references the territory of the Philistines and so really designates only the strip of coastline occupied by the Philistines.
Has Israel really treated the Palestinians unfairly? I’m sure there has been instances. But it seems to me that it is the Palestinians who are generally the ones attacking Israel. They make the threats of their plans to destroy Israel. They strap the explosives on the women and children and blow up Israelites. Many times the media coverage has been very unbalanced in their reporting.
In 1948 when the land was partitioned areas were given to both the Jews and the Palestinians and the next day Egypt Jordan and Syria attacked the Jews trying to claim all the land and drive the Jews out. Israel allowed many of the Arabs to stay and become citizens about a fifth of Israel were Arabs. Israelis have always been known to take the initiative when threatened with an eminent attack like they did in the 6 days war. Palestinians have been offered a land to live in several times but they want it all or nothing. The controversial areas where the Jewish settlers have settled were in land that was given to the Palestinians but they rejected it and walked away from because they wanted it all.
The Bible proves itself to be true in many ways. Just the fact that the Jews even exist is a testimony to its truth. They have restrained themselves like when under attack from Sadaam’s scuds. They are one of the strongest militaries in the world and have nuclear weapons. So many people and nations have tried to exterminate them and yet they thrive. I believe they always will. At least a remnant of them will.
The Lord is tarrying to give more people time to come to faith in Jesus Christ.
Carter, Clinton, Bush and others have tried desperately to leave a legacy by brokering peace between Israel and the Palestinians. The Bible tells us that the only one who will ever accomplish that will be the Anti-Christ. But it will be a false peace that is short lived. America needs to always support Israel.
"

" Fatherbob, I said it is a Biblical fact how many hindus, muslims buddhists taoists shintos do you find in the Bible? His people are the ones who accept and obey Him. "

" The Question, Millerites and Jehovah's Witnesses have tried to set dates and they have always been wrong but when have Christians ever set dates for the end? "

" When, Vanatta? All the time.
----
Jesus said: "I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all" (Matt. 24:34-35, New English Bible). And "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt. 24:34, King James Version). Many of Jesus' disciples believed that his admonitions applied to his own generation in the first century a.d. That prophecy did not come true for the early Christians, and almost 2000 years have since passed. We were told by Pat Robertson, Hal Lindsey, David Koresh, Harold Camping, Edgar C. Whisenant, and other evangelists that the generation referred to is ours. Even President Ronald Reagan was quoted as saying in the 1980s: "You know, I turn back to your ancient prophets in the Old Testament and the signs foretelling Armageddon, and I find myself considering if we're the generation that is going to see that come about. I don't know if you noted any of those prophecies lately but, believe me, they certainly describe the times we're going through."
— Paul Kurtz.
-----
I will grant you, however, that Jesus really doesn't count as a Christian. "

" To The Question, I don't see any dates in that. "

" JV, they all said "now" and, of course, they were all wrong. You can fill in the dates. "

" TQ, The generation that saw the fig tree begin to put fort leaves (Israel became a nation) is still alive and many of that generation will live for several more years. So the generation will not pass for several more years, not too many though. So don’t feel so smug yet TQ there is still time. You and scoffers like you are a sign that the time is near.

2 Pet. 3:3-4 (NKJV)
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

No one knows the day or the hour. Jesus didn’t set a date; Christians don’t set dates, but There are more signs coming together now than at any other time in history. TQ it will not be the end but the beginning of a new age.

2 Pet. 3:8-9 (NKJV)
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

He is giving us more time, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
"

" Jon, I know that your interpretation of what's happening in the Middle East is a popular one. But it isn't the only one, and I can't base my political views on any of the interpretations--all of which are uncertain. As for the "end times" in general, I agree with a minister I once heard: I'm not amillenial, premillenial, etc. but panmillenial--God is going to make everything pan out in the end. "

" Jon Vanatta wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:36 PM:
" Fatherbob, I said it is a Biblical fact how many hindus, muslims buddhists taoists shintos do you find in the Bible? His people are the ones who accept and obey Him. "

then his caring about a sparrow is meaningless
"

" Hey Question-

When are you going to tell us how ridiculous ole Barry Hussein Obama is-

because he believes in Jesus Christ?

You must really think ole Barry Hussein-

is one in-bred simpleton- huh.

Go ahead- Question-

tear into him! "

" What Ronald says is truth and saying it isn't doesn't make it any less true. Interestingly enough I also find myself in partial agreement with shumphreys. We do need to take responsibility for our own actions and the sorry state of the world is humankind's own fault. But in no part of Ronald's post do I see him blaming God or Satan for the condition of the world. He is simply stating that Jesus foretold what it would be like in the last days and what will occur on judgment day.

Jesus also says that we are not to spend our time worrying about when He will return. He also says that only the Father know the time. He does tell us to continue doing what He has commanded us to do while we wait. Additionally, He cautions us about false teachers and prophets who claim to have special knowledge or insight. The Gnostic-Christians were among the first of these in the first century. They attempted to blend Greek philosophy and thinking with Christ as Lord and Savior.

Yes, there have been predictions regarding Christ's return for centuries. But never in the last 2000 years have as many of the signs fallen into place as they have over the last sixty years. But we must not become obsessed with trying to make current events fit the prophecies of Jesus. Instead our focus should be on our mission in all aspects of our lives. "

" Jesus isn't returning. You have his moral example, and that will have to be enough for you. And if it isn't, too bad. "

" "Jesus isn't returning."

-------------

Yeah, QuestionBob-

I guess only uneducated, inbred, simple-minded, back-water "folks" like these Mid-Western rubes-

believe in fairy-tale nonsense like "Jesus Christ" as some sort of "God". Jeez!

Yep.......simple-minded, uneducated "folks"............like.....

er.....a..........

Barry Hussein Obama...........? "

" Bryant Lamphier wrote on Apr 12, 2008 8:13 AM:

" "Jesus isn't returning."

-------------

Yeah, QuestionBob-

I guess only uneducated, inbred, simple-minded, back-water "folks" like these Mid-Western rubes-

believe in fairy-tale nonsense like "Jesus Christ" as some sort of "God". Jeez!

Yep.......simple-minded, uneducated "folks"............like.....

er.....a..........

Barry Hussein Obama...........? """""

let's see Bryant Lemming...you need to get your stories straight about obama. you first stated he was a muslim, then he was a godless black radical, now he's a christian.....you're starting to sound a lot like rush limbaugh and bill o'riley. awww...nevermind, just wait and come up with something new next week....we'll wait for your next lie.
"

" I always get a good laugh when somebody points to Jesus' moral example or state that he was a good moral teacher and nothing more but deny He is returning or His deity. You are contradicting yourself Mr. Question. If Jesus gives us a moral example but isn't returning then He is a liar which negates His being a good moral example. You see, He tells us He is returning several times in Scripture. He also says He is the Christ, the Son of God, the only way back to the Father and numerous other outrageous statements. If He is none of these then He is a liar or a lunatic. In either case He can't be a good moral teacher.

In spite of earlier comments by Susan Humphreys we have the testimony of numerous witnesses who heard Jesus say these things and wrote down their accounts which exist in the Bible today. The Gospels of John and Matthew. The epistles of Peter, John, James and Jude. Paul the apostle had a face to face encounter with Jesus Christ after His resurrection on the road to Damascus so I think he qualifies as a witness. Mark traveled with both Paul and Peter extensively. Luke traveled with Paul. And finally, the last book of the Bible is Revelation not Revelations as somebody stated earlier. And to the person who said Jesus doesn't mention the end of times, he speaks extensively in Revelation contrary to an uninformed remark in an earlier post. He also speaks at length about the end of times in Matthew, Mark and Luke. If you had read them you would know this.

As far as avoiding responsibilities, as a Christian I am commanded to live my life trying to improve things. And most Christians I know live the same way. Believing what Jesus teaches us about last days does not mean we are coping out. How many of you have delivered food to families who are struggling with unemployment? How many of you have called on to sick and people in nursing homes in the last week? How many of you have given money to any charitable cause in the last month? How many of you have sat and held the hand of someone dying of cancer as they draw their last breaths before leaving this world? Most Christians I know do these things and much much more. So making inane statements about how we use last days prophecies as an excuse to avoid doing our part just doesn't hold water.

Finally, I laugh even more loudly when non Christians quote the parables and metaphors of Jesus totally out of context but totally ignore the concrete principles that He teaches.

Perhaps those of you who choose to attack Christian values and beliefs should spend a lot more time doing your homework and getting your facts straight.

Pastor Bob Schlessman, Bushton Christian Church "

" "you first stated he was a muslim"

-----------

I did- SpongeBob SquareHead? - When?

-----------

"then he was a godless black radical"

-----------

I said that- Fathead-Bob? - When ?

-----------

"now he's a christian"

-----------

Now that's what Barry Hussein Obama says- father QuestionBob.

------------

".....you're starting to sound a lot like rush limbaugh and bill o'riley"

-----------

Nah......my voice is much more pleasing.

You know- it's a shame you're too scared to face me on this issue under your Question name- SpeedBump-Bob. "

" If Jesus gives us a moral example but isn't returning then He is a liar which negates His being a good moral example.
----
Have it your way. Jesus is a liar, then. "

" "Have it your way. Jesus is a liar, then."

---------

Whoa there Professor QuestionBob!

You mean to tell me that-

Harvard-educated, top-of-his-class professor of constitutional law and bestselling author, Sen. Barry Hussein Obama-

is really so stupid-

that he believes in a fairytale about a LIAR- named-

Jesus Christ?

AND- Professor QuestionBob-

You're going to VOTE for-

Harvard-educated, top-of-his-class professor of constitutional law and bestselling author, Sen. Barry Hussein Obama.................?

Please.......DO explain this- DR R.W. QuestionPants. "

"
Bryant Lamphier wrote on Apr 12, 2008 8:05 PM:
" "you first stated he was a muslim"

-----------

I did- SpongeBob SquareHead? - When?


you must have me confused with tommie, i don't keep individual files on posters, however, i think i can find enough people here to confirm what i said....and what moronic drivel you've spewed in the past. "

" "and what moronic drivel you've spewed in the past."

----------

Oh don't worry SpeedBump-Bob-

you've still got the market cornered on "moronic drivel". "

" "you must have me confused with tommie, i don't keep individual files on posters, however, i think i can find enough people here to confirm what i said....and what moronic drivel you've spewed in the past."

-----------

My mistake- Speedbump-Bob

I did have you confused-

with someone who actually knows what the hel! they're talking about.

I apologize- it won't happen again.

And I'm sure you can "find" enough people to confirm your claims-

just as soon as you log back on under a different name or two-

right QuestionBob..........? "

" DID YOU KNOW THESE FACTS?

Death is certain but the Bible speaks about untimely death!

Make a personal reflection about this.....

It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7):

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sow, that shall he also reap.

Here are some men and women who mocked God:

John Lennon (Singer):

Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said: "Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that. I am certain.

Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, today we are more famous than Him" (1966).

Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.

Tancredo Neves (President of Brazil):

During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency.

Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died.

Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):

During A show in Canecio (Rio de Janeiro), while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said:"God, that's for you."

He died at the age of 32 of LUNG CANCER in a horrible manner.

The man who built the Titanic, after the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone he said: "Not even God can sink it"

The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic


Marilyn Monroe (Actress)

She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she
said: "I don't need your Jesus". A week later, she was found dead in her apartment

Bon Scott (Singer), the ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang: "Don't stop me; I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell".
On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit.

Campinas (IN 2005) in Campinas, Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend..... The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter holding her hand, who was already seated in the car: "My Daughter, Go With God And May He Protect You."

She responded: "Only If He (God) Travels In The Trunk, Cause Inside Here.....It's Already Full " Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died, the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact. The police said there was no way the trunk could
have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none was broken



Christine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer) said the Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written. In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle.

Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus.

Many have died, but only Jesus died and rose again, and he is still alive.

"Jesus"

"

" It would seem that this site is full of people who don't believe in anything so they will use any argument that suits the particualr point they are trying to make. It's pretty pathetic actually. I may disagree with a Muslim concerning God and religion but at least they believe in something and argue from a foundation of theology, philosophy and history, flawed though it may be. Most of the anti-Christian and anti-Christ rhetoric I see here is out of ignorance and stupidity. I think some people just talk to hear themselves because that is all they believe in - themselves. "

" Is it just me, or does anyone else find Bryant L's obsession about everyone else using multiple names on here just a tad suspicious?... LOL.... It's pretty obvious what's going on there fella. If I remember right, you carried on for months about Dohbaugh and I being one in the same. What happened to that obsession? Afraid bring it up might be a bit obvious? "

" @cd

Based on your numerous examples, your god is a vengeful murderer. I'd rather not worship such a malevolent being. The punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime. Someone pops off about you? Kill 'em! Do you live your life by that example? "