" The No Child Left Behind Law blows! Bush can stick it where the sun don't shine! I hope the next President seriously changes this for the better.

I'm all for "getting students to take the state tests more seriously", but the CHS Principal's methods on this have alot to be desired. Her all around actions on certain things are questionable at best.

I believe it's time for a revamping of our school policies for this area, & maybe some of the staff as well. "

" I assure you, Rotty, that I know much better than you what is going on at Charleston High School. The current actions to improve test scores are long overdue. Many schools, not just Charleston, kept hoping that NCLB would go away before it came time for restructuring plans. Well, NCLB is still here, and this year's test scores will determine whether CHS has to restructure. Just look at the Springfield high schools. This did not come out of the blue; this has been a 5-year process just to get to this point. Diane Hutchins did not create the situation--she inherited it. Finally we have an administrator who is trying to remedy the situation and not use Charleston School District as stepping stone to a so-called better position up north. "

" You assure me, Illinoistransplant, that you know more than me? Wow, that's quiet a pedestal you're placing yourself up on.
Her blanket procedures are ill-conceived, & are not applicable, for everyone, even if alot of the kids do need to "get more serious" with it, in the eyes of a somewhat pessimistic leader.
The current Principal may have "inherited" some of it, but she has been in her current role long enough to have also created some of it.
Also, constantly using strong-arm tactics against the entire high school populace is not a good ideal, in my book, either.
The two heads at CHS & CMS have been the focus, in the Comment Sections, several times, by several posters, when the articles show up here, online, & not in a good way. I wonder why that is?
The NCLB may still be here, but hopefully when the next administration is voted into office, whomever that may be, it will be changed dearly, & hopefully for the betterment of our children, & their future.
A "my way or the highway" figure in our school system is not something our children deserve.
And by the way, if you're one of the new school Superintendents that was recently hired, you've now blown any possible good hopes & wishes I once had for you fellers. You had better do a little better research on the personnel under your future care - some might be good eggs, but alot are not, & our children deserve better.
And if you're a school board member, you had better start back at square one before any of you folks will gain my trust back.
Our children are our life, our future, & I only want the best for them, & they most certainly deserve better! "

" No, I am not a school board member nor am I a new superintendent. However, the open-to-the-public school board meeting is tonight (Wed. March 19th) and held the 3rd Wednesday of every month. It begins at 6:30pm at the administration builing on W. Polk behind the Dept of Motor Vehicles and Charleston Lanes. If you feel this strongly, you should make your comments known to the school board.

I really do not want to get into a war of words with you, but I cannot figure out how you have created your opinions. Specifically, what strong-arm tactics and blanket procedures are you talking about? Why are you so personally angry with the school district? "

" Hiring coaches to improve math scores? I thought that was what you were paying teachers to do. "

" just wondering wrote on Mar 19, 2008 11:10 AM:
" Hiring coaches to improve math scores? I thought that was what you were paying teachers to do. "

.......

Exactly, well said!

.......

Illinoistransplant, Thank You for the thoughtful info - & I believe I will.
My opinions were created by the way certain levels of our school system are ran, or are allowed to run.
I'm not really "personally angry" with our schools, I'm just very concerned of how ALL the kids are percieved & are dictated to, & the tactics that are used upon them, & their families, because of the NCLB Law.
I agree that alot of these kids, nowadays, need to endure a little more, to be able to have any kind of future, or atleast a better future, but I still believe some things need to be done better or differently.
Hopefully with more parental involvement in our children's education, & some major needed changes in the No Child Left Behind Law, we can be assured of a better & brighter future for our children.

"

" It's very easy to blame teachers, but not always accurate. . . . How is a teacher to do his/her job when too many parents haven't taught their children any values, such as respect, honesty, and a work ethic to name but a few. If parents don't reinforce the value of studying and earning good grades (not just being handed an A because you want one), if they don't care whether their children do their homework, if they help them cheat on assignments, if they don't care if they skip school, if they don't value education in their own home or expect their children to respect their teachers, then how is that teacher going to do his or her job? Teachers can't force students to learn; teachers can't do it all. It takes willing students and parents who are willing to stand up to their children and expect them to be responsible, as well as being supportive of them, for the educational system to work. "

" just wondering wrote on Mar 19, 2008 11:10 AM:

" Hiring coaches to improve math scores? I thought that was what you were paying teachers to do. "
---------------------------------
CHARLESTON — The Charleston school board could decide soon whether Charleston High School will get “coaches” for two subject areas to help the school with its state test scores.
------------------------------
Well said, Just Wondering.

Why do students need these coaches? Should the daily focus be on the state test with a sense of tunnel vision? Those test aren't out in the real working world. It seems to me that the focus should be on real life and the working world, and as a side benefit, the state tests. If that can't be done, maybe the problem is not academics, but tests themselves.
I personally believe that "tenure" should be of the past, not the present or future. Employees of other occupations don't have the benefit of tenure, why should faculty (at any level)? You can still have 'Academic Freedom', just not freedom to teach personal opinion, Liberal or Conservative, just the academic material.
Faculty are not allowed to speak of religion, so why do they have the freedom to speak of their liberal (or conservative) ideals?
If you don't get the job done, you should be as easily fired as any other employee.
If the schools need coaches; it sounds like it needs to fire ineffective or lazy faculty first.
"

" cd, Most teachers would agree with you that the test shouldn't be the focus. Most teachers would also tell you that they have been hamstringed (hamstrung?) in what they are able to teach because so much is riding on their students' scores on these standardized tests -- among them funding for their school district and the teacher's own job. If your job depended upon someone else's performance on a test, wouldn't you probably focus on the material on the test rather than other material? Teachers have been the most vocal opponents to standardized tests -- instead of blaming them for this mess, blame your hero George W. Bush and the then-controlled Republican House and Senate for cramming this "reform" down the throats of our educators. "

" Perhaps the best way to ensure success in the classroom would be to put our money where our mouths are. If we really value education, we'd pay teachers more. We have a lot of good veteran teachers, but they're retiring in droves and we can't seem to recruit GOOD young teachers to replace them because the salaries aren't even close to what they can earn with Bachelors and Masters degrees out in the private sector. Once these folks who had entered the profession idealistically hoping to make a difference are often met with is too many unsupportive/uninvolved parents, ill-behaved children with little desire to learn for whom they become babysitters, and a public insensitive to the challenges faced in the classroom. Teaching is a lot harder than many in the public perceive it to be! Many teachers I know work 60-70 hours a week or more, which more than makes up for the summer vacation (part of which is expected to be spent on continuing education and preparing materials for the next school year, by the way). I'd like to see some of the critics put in charge of a classroom for even a day so they can see how "easy" it is or how "lazy" teachers are!!! "

" cd wrote on Mar 19, 2008 6:15 PM:
If you don't get the job done, you should be as easily fired as any other employee.
If the schools need coaches; it sounds like it needs to fire ineffective or lazy faculty first.

.......

I would also like to know why they need to fork out more taxpayers money for these "coaches"?
Our school system is already populated with teacher's aides or instructional aides, in addition to the regular teachers supposedly doing their jobs.
It kind of makes one wonder who might be really dropping the ball here?
The NCLB Law is a big thorn in the side of education, & I guess we have no other than good ole George WTF Bush to thank for it.
Hurry up election time!
(Then again, maybe not.)
LOL!
"

" For anyone who did not attend the board meeting this evening, both the literacy and numeracy (i.e., math) coach positions were approved this evening.

As was also explained at the board meeting, an academic coach is a certified teacher, and, in the case of the literacy coach, a reading specialist, as well. The reason the high school, or any high school, needs these coach positions is because high school teachers are trained to teach literature and composition in English and higher math skills in math, NOT reading or basic math skills. The coaches will be providing staff development within the schools and working with teachers one-on-one to incorporate these more basic skills into the higher level instruction.

This could save money since teachers won't need to attend out-of-district workshops that have high registration fees plus the cost of a substitute teacher.

Finally, while some of the posts discuss not focusing on the test, that is a federal government issue; it is teh result of No Child Left Behind. The tests given junior year consist of the ACT (a college entrance exam) and the ACT WorkKeys tests. If you would like to see sample questions, go to www.act.org or check out a test prep book from the Charleston Library. These tests are much harder than you think. "

" I agree with "just wondering" completely. Out of the 200 days (I believe this is right) the kids are suppose to be in school, they are out 30 of them with holidays, early dismissals, teacher conferances, etc. Then another 5 to 10 days for field trips. So this leaves somewhere around 160 days of schooling or 35 to 40 days less than they would if they went all the time. Tammer65 says, "If your job depended upon someones else's performance wouldn't you probably focus on the material on the test rather than other material". This is just one prime example of ignorance. A lot of people's jobs depend on other people doing their job. The problem is our "No child left behind act" that our politicians came up with. Tammer65 also states, pay the teachers more. Just because you pay someone more doesn't necessarily mean you are going to get better teachers or the kids are going to get any smarter. One example of our kids today" a friend of mine's 12 year old came home from school the other day and had a binkie in his mouth. When his dad ask him what in the world he was doing, his son replied that this is the new thing at school. All my friend could say was "GOD HELP US". Also Tammer65, Government workers get paid extremely well and if you go to any government office you will see a lot of people standing around talking (on our tax dollars)or at least a lot more than in the private sector. The best solution is to have them attend MORE schooling, quite possibly year round. Of course Tammer65 or Early Bird won't agree with this because it doesn't follow EIU's schedule of which they seem to favor. "

" Warrior, for someone who professes to know so much about education, you have so many of your facts WAAAAAY wrong!!! First of all, the state requires 180 days of attendance, not 200. If you want 200 days, or year-round schooling, fine, but be prepared to spend a great deal more of your tax dollars to provide it, because in addition to heating the building instead of having a Christmas break that you object to, you'll also be cooling buildings year-round, and electric rates are significantly higher in the summer than the rest of the year, plus if teachers, secretaries, etc., are working more days, they will get paid more (otherwise, you'd be cutting their already low salaries!). Second, teachers are already working during many of the holidays that you object to. For example, today, students will be attending half-day, but teachers will be on the job even longer than the normal school day, holding conferences with parents and attending required meetings. This is true of several of the student days off and early dismissals, not just today. Thirdly, field trips ARE instructional activities, often of the best kind. They provide hands-on learning that students often do not receive in the traditional classroom, an enrichment opportunity that enhances student learning. As far as your grandson and the pacifier, I can assure you, this is not something that a teacher introduced, but other children at the school. Controlling the influence of peer pressure is a PARENT'S job, but all too many parents today expect the teachers to do that work for them, too, as they are too preoccupied being their children's friends than parents. Again, if you think teachers are so lazy and overpaid, I invite you to spend a day, or a week, shadowing a teacher at one of the schools. It just might open your eyes (if you're willing to open them, which is questionable), to just how hard a teacher's job is, just how challenging their work is and how much of it they bring home. Instead of tearing down our teachers, we should be thanking them -- they could certainly earn a lot more money in the private sector with their college educations, but have chosen to devote their lives to making a difference instead. Try supporting the schools instead of just sitting back and complaining on online forums, warrior!!!! You could choose to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem!! "

" There's a documentary we all need to see - it's called "@ million minutes" and focuses on two american high school students, two indian high school students and two chinese high school students. It's disturbing and thought provoking.

I, too, am concerned about our schools. We pour more money into them, yet our students do not improve. The US is going to be in a serious crisis if we don't get this straightened out. "

" Warrior, oops, just realized I should have said "friend's son" instead of "grandson," but the point is the same; this isn't something he would have gotten from his teachers. Those pacifier toys are very popular at the skating rink in Mattoon because they light up. I agree they're a rather silly toy (which is why my child doesn't have one), but again, how can you blame the schools for this rather than the parents? The schools aren't buying toys for the students, after all. As far as No Child Left Behind being the cause of the "teaching to the test" phenomenon, that's exactly what I said in my post. In fact, teachers were very vocal opponents of NCLB before it was passed into law, but too many people said this was just teachers copping out, not wanting to work hard, not wanting to face standards. Turns out the teachers were right about this law, but those who supported it are now turning this into a blame-the-teachers issue yet again. What, specifically, are you wanting teachers to do differently? "

" illinoistransplant wrote on Mar 19, 2008 9:41 PM:

" For anyone who did not attend the board meeting this evening, both the literacy and numeracy (i.e., math) coach positions were approved this evening.

As was also explained at the board meeting, an academic coach is a certified teacher, and, in the case of the literacy coach, a reading specialist, as well. The reason the high school, or any high school, needs these coach positions is because high school teachers are trained to teach literature and composition in English and higher math skills in math, NOT reading or basic math skills. The coaches will be providing staff development within the schools and working with teachers one-on-one to incorporate these more basic skills into the higher level instruction.
----------------------------------
Please, someone PLEASE explain to me how these lacking students got into high school in the first place!
Their use to be standards required to be promoted to the next level...have they been eliminated? It would seem that fixing these kind of problems would be easier in the lower grades and allow the students to get more from their education. Sorry parents, if you don't like and want your children to be held back, get (more) involved. Teachers that may be passing these students to improve your class scores, no more.
As for student behavior: Teachers use to have a capacity to control students, whether they used it or not....which was called by some, "The board of education". At least the possibility of its use was there. That was a deterent for most. How are teachers to control the worst of the students when the students know that they can't be punished other than limited verbal chastising?

In spite of the following coming from the Bible, it is a good, moral guide for human behavior. It is found in Galatians 5:15, 19-first half of 21,'22-23', & 26. These principles should be taught in the schools, if we could only get past its source. Personally, I think it would be good for the public in general to hear it at regular intervals.
People and Teachers say it is the parent responsibility. Other people and Parents say it's the Teachers responsibility. Yet the State says you can't spank, or grab the students. You can't teach them good moral values in the schools because those values ultimately come from (Christian)religion.
Do you see what I see? The "State" made the tests, the "State" made the 'no touch' rules for behavior, etc. etc. etc.
Maybe it is time that the "People" tell the "State (on the whole)" where to go. And tell them to take their busybodies with them. ??? "

" tammer65 wrote on Mar 20, 2008 8:48 AM:

they could certainly earn a lot more money in the private sector with their college educations, but have chosen to devote their lives to making a difference instead.
--------------------------------
Is their a possibility that the private sector pays too much? Is their a possibility that the private sector has an unfair advantage over school systems?
Is their a possibility that some parents have equal education to teachers? Is their a possibility that these teachers should have done more homework on whether they wanted to be teachers ("to devote their lives to making a difference instead.") vs. not making a difference and making more $$$? They are just questions.
"

" CD, I'd say that ultimately, it's going to take teachers and parents working together, rather than blaming each other. How is a teacher to properly educate a child if that child won't listen, is disruptive, hasn't been taught to respect people, won't do the work in or out of class, etc.? And if a parent teaches his/her child to be respectful, makes sure they do their homework and show up to school ready to work, etc., but the teacher doesn't put challenging material in front of the students and only gives them mindless worksheets or fill-in-the-blank materials to copy out of the book, then not a lot of learning is going on, either. Having volunteered a lot at the schools (and teaching at the college level myself), I do see some ways that teachers could improve their teaching methods. But I also walk away from the schools in amazement at how much ill behavior and other bs teachers put up with every day because so many children don't know how to behave, and even more dismayed at how many children come to school without having done their homework! That never would have happened at my house -- when I was growing up or now with my own child. Homework always came before other activities. I have mixed feelings about your comments on corporal punishment -- my parents never spanked me and I don't spank my child, but they also taught me discipline and I've tried to do the same. I never had to be spanked at school and was never disruptive in the classroom or on the playground, because my parents taught me to behave! Too many children today haven't been given that training. I don't know if it has to be spanking, but it does seem like an awful lot of students haven't been exposed to any type of discipline at home at all, so when their teachers try to corral them, they often don't get very far. But I do think that we need to work together -- if parents and the public just sit back and blame the teachers, we won't get very far, and a lot of this is beyond what a teacher can -- or should even have to try -- to do. "

" Tp Tammer65, No body was blaming the schools for the pacifiers, I was just commenting and if you could read, I put I BELIEVE after the 200 days kids are in school, which means I wasn't really sure, which is why I also put the number of days they aren't in school. So 180 minus 35 days, means our kids are in school 145 days or 1015 hous minus lunch and recess, which woulkd come to around 870 hours (plus or minus) of learning.I unlike you don't work for EIU, which is why you should be working during the day instead of posting on this forum, correct? Like I said, you start overpaying people (like government workers) and they start doing less. Also, your comment about, if kids go to school for the whole year I should be prepared to pay for it. Well won't I/we being paying more if we use your idea and give the teachers a raise? Sounds to me like maybe your a teacher and quite possibly not happy with your current pay of $40k to $50k a year. Your also probably one of them people who think the kids getting out last week with EIU for Spring break was an okay thing, instead of them utilizing GooD Friday and Easter with Spring Break since they were so close together this year. "

" CD, I'm also with you in not being able to understand why students who can't do the basic work keep getting promoted up the ranks into high school; we need to put some teeth into our expectations. But this certainly isn't anything new in our schools. When I graduated from CHS 25 years ago, there were students who graduated with me who lacked basic skills in reading, math, and other subjects and whose diploma essentially didn't mean a whole lot. But I don't know what the answer is. I'm just fairly certain that more testing ISN'T what we need to help our students improve. "

" I thought thats what we paid the teachers for also. I have to agree with Rotty, maybe the leave no child behind act needs to be revamped or something. Like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, which is no different to kids who don't take the test seriously. Maybe they can offer then a day out of school if they get 80% or higher on the test or some initiative like that. "

" Warrior, FYI -- not that it's any of your business -- I do not teach on Tuesday or Thursday, and am not on the clock every minute on the days I DO teach, so HOW DARE YOU imply that I'm online when I should be working!!!!! "

" Now how are teachers humstrung by standardized tests? Oh yeah, maybe by us spending the greatest amount on education of any industrialized society, yet getting the least return for what we spend. Or could it be from our teaching unions and administrators rewarding mediocracy with yearly pay raises? I guess that's how. If our HS teachers taught to proficiency in math and science, bedrock curricula for an advancing society, and then our kids competed satisfactorially with the rest of the world, we would not then need standardized testing. Want your teaching salaries to increase? Get rid of the state education bureaucracy, school adminstrators, and unions, and then compete with the rest of the professional workforce. That will raise teaching salaries to unprecedented levels. Don't blame GWB for standardized tests. We need standardized tests to let us know were we stand with the rest of the world regardless whether teaching is or is not done to the standardized tests. Consider that China and India have more honors students than we do students. Business as usually, that's the ticket for our educators. Don't educate our kids so they can compete and they won't have jobs, period. From the "mouths" of educators, be very, very afraid, and enlightened and see www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7J_ereCiTo. "

" And warrior, yes, I AM one of "them people." Perhaps instead of spending so much time complaining about teachers, you should have spent a little time listening to them when they were trying to teach you basic grammar. And your information on teacher salaries is also WOEFULLY inaccurate!!! You can earn more working at a local factory with no college education at all than you can as a teacher. Teachers are choosing a noble profession, often a great personal sacrifice (they could use their educations to pursue professions with far more lucrative salaries), because they want to make a difference. Given the attitudes they face from ignorant people like you, it's amazing that we have anyone at all willing to attempt to educate our children! "

" CD, I overlooked your post about my comments on teacher salaries. Maybe the private sector (non-teaching) does pay too much, though most of the folks I know, educated professionals or blue collar workers alike (most of my family is blue-collar, by the way, so I'm not knocking folks that work with their hands for a living) are having a hard time getting by, so I don't think most people would suggest we should all have our paychecks reduced. I didn't mean to suggest that teachers are disappointed w/ their pay or that they've entered their professions blindly -- most are well aware that they've chosen a low-paying job. I was just responding to those that think teachers are paid too much. Don't let that summer-off and holidays through the year schedule fool you -- most of the teachers I know put in WELL OVER 2,000 hours (the typical 40-hour work week, 50 weeks a year). At my own job, I'm on campus 3 days a week, for about 17 or 18 hours, but I'm also grading papers and planning for classes typically till 1 or 2 in the morning, and I typically work almost all of the weekend. I'm not complaining -- I get to do a lot of my work in my pajamas, and I get to take breaks to post comments on forums like this, but if folks measure me by the number of hours I'm actually in my classroom or in my office, they'd think they were getting ripped off. The fact is that the face-to-face part of my job is just a tiny fraction of it. So people on the outside looking in often misjudge me and other teachers at the university, just as some on the forum seem to have misjudged what goes on in a typical elementary or high school classroom. You asked, too, if some parents might be just as well-educated (or more) than teachers, and of course that is true. But the question is WHAT is their education in. My doctor has a lot more schooling than I do, but that doesn't make him qualified to teach, just as my training doesn't make me qualified to be a doctor. The point I was trying to make is that teaching is a lot more demanding a career than it looks, and that I think the vast majority of teachers are worth every penny they earn, if not more! "

" CD, one last thought on teacher salaries. Teachers don't earn as much as a lot of people seem to think they do. I have a Master's Degree, have been on the job 20 years, and my annual performance evaluations have been, without a single exception, in the highest possible performance category. But my brother-in-law makes $10,000 a year more than I do working at the local dog-food factory (he's been there 16 years, so his higher pay can't be attributed to more years on the job). I know, I know -- I chose my job (and I love what I do, very much), and I could have chosen to work in a factory or go into business, or any number of other things instead, if making money was more important to me. But as a society, I think we should pay for what we value, and on the whole, I don't think we value teachers or education an awful lot, which is part of the reason our schools are failing. That old adage of "you get what you pay for" applies to teachers as much as anyone else. It took me a number of years on the job at EIU to earn more in the classroom than my cousin, who was a civil-service building services worker, earned for cleaning the classrooms. That doesn't seem right. I can't tell you the number of bright, engaging students who come through my classroom saying that they'd love to teach, if only it paid more. The profession loses them, instead, to the business world, or to law school, or to engineering, etc. Thankfully, some of my top students aren't motivated by money and choose education, but why should we as a society expect such altruism and personal sacrifice out of our teachers when we don't out of many other professions that require the same amount of education (sometimes even less)? "

" tammer65 wrote on Mar 20, 2008 12:34 PM:
I have mixed feelings about your comments on corporal punishment -- my parents never spanked me and I don't spank my child, but they also taught me discipline and I've tried to do the same. I never had to be spanked at school and was never disruptive in the classroom or on the playground, because my parents taught me to behave!
-----------------------------------
I'm not saying that corporal punishment has to be used, but that it be available to use. Then it should be only used for the more sever infractions. Being defiant in that the student doesn't believe they will be paddled is good enough for ONE swat. Otherwise, what will stop them from hitting teachers, principal, or staff?
Kicking them out of school doesn't work. Maybe put them in with the special students that have real behavioral problems, but make their parents pay extra to be in that group. Burnout for teachers of that group is about five years I was told by a teacher that use to be one.
I guess it comes down to quit coddling these kids, and their psyche. Conform or receive a fair punishment. Calling (both) parents at work, and in some cases, even expect them to leave work to arrive at the school. "

" Now how are teachers humstrung by standardized tests? Oh yeah, maybe by us spending the greatest amount on education of any industrialized society, yet getting the least return for what we spend. Or could it be from our teaching unions and administrators rewarding mediocrity with yearly pay raises? I guess that's how. If our HS teachers taught to proficiency in math and science, bedrock curricula for an advancing society, and then our kids competed satisfactorially with the rest of the world, we would not then need standardized testing. Want your teaching salaries to increase? Get rid of the state education bureaucracy, school adminstrators, and unions, and then compete with the rest of the professional workforce. That will raise teaching salaries to unprecedented levels. Don't blame GWB for standardized tests. We need standardized tests to let us know were we stand with the rest of the world regardless whether teaching is or is not done to the standardized tests. Consider that China and India have more honors students than we do students. Business as usually, that's the ticket for our educators. Don't educate our kids so they can compete and they won't have jobs, period. From the "mouths" of educators, be very, very afraid, and enlightened and see www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7J_ereCiTo. "

" Tammer:

Are you Unit A or Unit B in the union at EIU? That could explain a lower salary.
I agree that teachers aren't completely to blame, but I must admit, I have had my share of poor educators as my teachers in K-12. It makes a large difference in how well a student enjoys learning.
However, I also recognize the vital role played by parents in the educational success of their children. And with my children, I am a very involved parent, as is my spouse. We also have chosen to send our children to private schools, mainly for the level of committment the parents have and for the more rigid behaviour required of the children which enhances learning. The lesson here for me is that education may need an overhaul - with committment from all involved. "

" NeoCon, comparing China or India to the US schools is to compare apples to oranges. China and India aren't educating their entire populations; only the elite go to school. Because we're educating everyone, including students whose families don't give a crap if their kids have an education or not, the curriculum gets watered down so that everyone in the class can understand the material. And yet I still prefer our system to theirs -- you don't have to be rich or connected to get an education in America, and that's a good thing! Perhaps we should invest more in gifted education or other enrichment for high-achieving students, though such programs can be problematic because selection is sometimes politicized to favor the children of "prominent" parents, in small towns especially. How do standardized tests hamstring the teachers? With all the emphasis on math achievement, for example, other important subjects get sacrificed. In the elementary schools, for example, there is less time for the teaching of history or social sciences or writing -- subjects that actually help promote critical thinking. In my daughter's school last year, they spent 4 weeks of the school year taking standardized tests! 4 weeks in which little to no other study was taking place, just test-taking. 4 solid weeks out of 18 weeks in the school year. Add to this the fact that they spend 2 weeks taking practice tests to prepare for their fall testing and 2 weeks taking practice tests to prepare for their spring tests, and that's 8 weeks of the school year devoted to standardized tests! I think that severely hamstrings a teacher, limiting the amount of material they can cover. Perhaps that's one of the factors in people feeling like their children aren't getting a strong enough education -- they aren't! Why do the teachers do this? They've found that spending the time practicing improves their students' test scores -- and if those scores aren't high enough, the district loses funding and the teachers can lose their jobs. Is it what's best for your children? NO!!! NeoCon, you criticized teachers unions, but those teachers unions were among the most vocal critics of all those standardized tests! They were trying to convince people like you that all of this testing actually weakens our children's education. For those who oppose NCLB and standardized testing, don't blame the teachers! They didn't want all of this testing! "

" Beaches, I'm Unit B, but with 20 years in, I'm making more than many Unit A faculty who are just starting out. In the Humanities in particular, the starting salaries are quite low, certainly well below the $40-$50,000 figure that warrior cited. I agree with you that it will take commitment from all parties involved to solve this, and that there are some decidedly average or below-average teachers out there, but I think a huge part of the problem is the lack of respect shown toward teachers by students, parents, and the general public. There are also a lot of really GOOD teachers out there, too, but they get lumped in with the bad, which just adds to the demoralizing effect -- being unappreciated even though they are sacrificing a lot of opportunities for themselves and their families to try to help make a better world. "

" no child left behind has failed miserably...end of story. teachers are forced to teach to the test and not to the best interests of the student. we're raising a generation of educationally challenged americans:::

Microsoft chairman Bill Gates, among others, has repeatedly urged the US Congress to let more foreign engineers, including Indians, to work in the US as immigration restrictions were forcing US high-tech firms to outsource jobs overseas.
The current cap of 65,000 H-1B visas aimed at highly skilled professionals “is arbitrarily set and bears no relation to the US economy’s demand for skilled professionals”, he told a Congressional panel recently. “If we increase the number of H-1B visas that are available to US companies, employment of US nationals is also likely to grow as well.”

A recent study by the National Foundation for American Policy (NFAP), in fact, shows that American businesses are finding it hard to fill skilled positions even as H-1B visas that bring foreign professionals, including a large number from India, are creating jobs in the US. Confirming Gates' contention that an arbitrary cap on H-1B visas is forcing high tech firms to outsource jobs, the study found major US technology companies today average more than 470 job openings for skilled positions in the US while defence companies have more than 1,265 each.

A second complementary study by NFAP found after examining H-1B filings and year-by-year job totals for the technology companies in the Standard & Poor (S&P) 500 that hiring skilled foreign nationals on H-1B visas is associated with increases in employment at US technology companies. "

" Tammer:

You are correct, no one in teaching will get rich, but teachers can make a decent salary. I also agree that much of the problem lies with the parents and families of the children who do not support academics and do not require their children to behave in a proper and respectful manner. I spoke with one parent who told me if her child had to apologize every time he was rude that was all he would do, so she doesn't make him do so. I disagree - learning respect for others is a critical step in child rearing and all too often the teachers in the schools do have to deal with disruptive, rude children.
This is such a tough issue to solve, as it takes buy in from all areas. And while everyone argues, the children continue to suffer. "

" Contrary to popular belief, NCLB hasn’t failed miserably as others have suggested. Scores are rising on average, albeit in some cases slower than expected, across the nation, but they are rising. The more testing there is the better education will get. And with all due respect to tammer65, whether China and India are educating only their elites or not, who cares? It is not apples and oranges. Do the math. They have more honors students than we have students. It is only a matter of time that our inability to compete in math and science catches up with this country. They are, let alone, outdoing us in math and science, by sheer population numbers, with benchmark standardized tests, and at a fraction of the cost. And when Indian and Chinese students come to our mid-tier universities, even though 35 of the top 50 universities in the world are located in US, they are not taking theater, art, basket weaving, recreation, or sports management. Because they have a solid grounding in math and science, they are filling the seats in our computer science and engineering programs. In the past these newly minted engineers stayed in this country. Now, because standards of living and wages have risen in their countries, meanwhile we complain about losing $8 to $15 an hour jobs, they’re going back to their countries. A recent trade journal article showed that an information technology Project Manager in the US makes about $70K a year while their job counterpart in China and India make $14K and $12 a year, respectively. Until only recently these jobs did not exist in quantity in these countries. Consider also that the people in the call centers located in India when you call for technical help on some technology gadget are making $7K to $10K a year, with engineering degrees, while we pay our low skill burger-flippers $7.25 an hour. The National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) in the US has listed the shortage of technically trained people and engineers and in the U.S. as being at moderate to severe levels since about 2001. I guess your argument is that even after throwing substantial resources and money at math and science curricula for years in the US, as scores continually declined before NCLB was enacted, we should just give up and tell the rest of the world we can’t compete? If teachers, and their unions, don’t like being held accountable by NCLB, I guess that’s just tough. Get new job then, let districts lose federal hand-out money, let parents get upset, and let your unions crumble, and then watch how the teachers salaries rise. By throwing money at gifted programs nothing more will happen than ensuring the success of kids that will already succeed. It won’t increase the talent pool in math and science. If more time is spent on math and science curriculum, and other curriculum is neglected, except for maybe English, that’s fine. The wealth and prosperity of a nation is built upon the ability to research, invent, manufacture, and sell things, and not by producing sells clerks, burger-flippers, artists, musicians, or sports athletes. This premise was proven by the success of this country starting with the first industrial revolution and culminated with the second industrial revolution. You want to increase respect for teachers by the general public? How about looking at the parochial school model? Instituting boys only and girls only schools, school uniforms, charge fees akin to what home-schoolers pay for materials and supplies regardless of income (when you pay for something you appreciate it more than a free handout), and place emphasis on every child going to technical or college, no exceptions, raises educational outcomes.
"

" Beaches, well said, in both your posts, but especially the latest. "

" Neocon, where's your evidence that parochial school students do better on standardized testing than their public-school counterparts? "

" Neocon, how is spending 8 weeks out of 18 preparing for standardized tests helping our students perform better on math and science? Without these tests, more time would actually be spent learning new concepts and practicing new skills, not practicing filling in bubbles with #2 pencils. Scores are going up primarily because students are robotically practicing test questions. I believe it was cd who posted earlier that actual, real-world skills are declining, that the tests aren't accomplishing anything of value than increased test scores. And without the "federal handouts" that you denigrate, local taxpayers would see their taxes go through the roof to make up the difference! "

" Neocon, how are we supposed to expect people to pay for their school materials "regardless of income"? If a parent is struggling to put food on the table now, how will they afford to pay for all their child's textbooks and school materials? Many won't be able to do so, and their children simply won't have the books needed, making it even more difficult for the teachers to promote learning. Hard to teach someone who doesn't even have the book. . . . "

" Tammer concerning… “where’s the evidence that parochial school students….” I was addressing your earlier comment regarding how to increase respect for the teaching profession from the general public.

But since you asked the question, YOU CAN SEE FOR YOURSELF by the statistics provided by U.S. Department of Education, it’s safe to say, through statistic significance, that they do better than the public schools. Here’s the address for the 8th grade math scores http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/nde/viewresults.asp. You can look up 4th, 8th, and 12th grades achievement scores, and across the board, you’ll see NCLB’s positive impact. If you are so inclined, use the statistical analysis software proved by the site to note statistical significance between pre-NCLB and extant, consecutive NCLB, public versus non-public levels of achievement.
"

" If they are spending 8 weeks out of 18 preparing for standardized tests, as a parent, aren’t you concerned or ashamed of that? Ever consider asking the local board of education, the Illinois State Board of Education, or the Illinois Board of Education Superintendent their thoughts on the matter? I bet that they might just investigate such as matter. And if this is really happening, boy, maybe you share as to the extent this is happening? By the way, how can you prove that more time will be “spent learning new concepts and practicing new skills” will take place provided they are not preparing for the standardized exams? My kids got out early today. When I asked them what they did in class in their subjects before they got out they said they did very little in class on subjects because it was a half-day. Concerning “taxes through the roof”, taxes would not go through the roof if simple, market reforms like those done in business and industry, too numerous to state here, were instituted. Operating costs associated with school operations would be a great place to start. "

" Concerning “how are we supposed to expect people to pay…”, tammer65, boy, let me think here. I see that a local HS ATHLETICS booster club just gave a school district $50,000 for their athletics department. Wasn’t it amazing to see that? You think developing a booster club to garner, perish the thought, new textbooks and supplies, might work? I also hear that you can get residual, educational grants too from various sources. I guess no one every thought of that before either though. It seems to me that education is the only field that provides excuses and dwells on what can't be done. In the "real world" where real world experiences is gained, people ask first what can and must be done in order to make things happen...and to keep their jobs. "

" Neocon, these links are essentially worthless because they prove NOTHING. Just because scores go up on standardized tests doesn't mean students are actually learning more meaningful content. It means that they've learned to become better test takers. Talk to college teachers -- across the board they'll tell you about the decline in student preparation that they've seeing in incoming freshmen for the last several years. Talk to employers, who lament the drop in quality among their new hires just out of high school and college. Twain once wrote, "There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Statistics can be used to claim virtually anything a person wants them to. "

" well tammer65, unlike you I don't have time to dissect my grammer and spelling and unlike the teachers who work over 2000 hours a year, I work everyday 40 hours a week or 2080 hours per year (not incluiding overtime). So get over it, I don't agree with you and thats the bottom line. Apparently you're used to getting your way and not used to someone not agreeing with your ideas. Grow-up, act like an adult, quit criticizing people, putting them down and pointing out meaningless items and maybe you will make more money. "

" It may be painful to hear, but I believe that NeoCon is onto something. We are losing our ability to compete, and it may not impact us hugely in my lifetime, but I worry what our children will face because we are focused on entertaining them, rather than educating them. And I am at fault as a parent as well. Fortunately my children are young and I can hopefully focus them strongly on academics and impact their school to continue to do so as well. "

" Gee, warrior, "over 2000" probably equals at least "2080", ya think? And you don't get a vacation with your job -- you work 40 hours, 52 weeks a year? How sad. But I don't follow orders given to me by petty, small-minded people like yourself, so I'll keep criticizing the posts I disagree with it. This is AMERICA and I have freedom of speech. Perhaps YOU are the one who needs to "grow up and get over it." You seem to have a problem whenever people don't just agree and regurgitate the conservative drivel you embrace. (And which you also contradict -- you criticized No Child Left Behind, which is the brain-child and great legacy of the conservative masterpiece, George W. Bush.) "

" tammer, i think the Neocon Macadamia Nut is overly impressed with himself and his thoughts...can't say much to get though to narcissistic types. "

" Hey Tammer, sounds like warrior is taking after another poster on here who likes to tell others what the should or should not be saying, who goes by the name of Tom Andres. What do you think? "

" FB and HP, thanks for the support. It's like arguing with a brick wall with some of the posters on here, although the bricks are probably smarter and certainly more flexible! "

" AaW, LoOk WhO hAs CoMe To ThE dEfEnSe Of OuR lIbTaRd BrOad; NoNe OtHeR tHaN lIbTaRdS fAtHeR bOoB aNd HaRrY pOtTy. NoW yOu AlL cAn KiSs AnD rEgAlE yOuRsElVeS oN hOw YoUr RaCiAl MeSsIaH iS gOiNg To SaVe ThE wOrLd. By ThE wAy, HaVe YoU tHrEe HaD yOuR mEdS tOdAy? "

" tammer 65
This government provided link is not worthless. As I mentioned before the analysis software provided indicates statistical significance. It indicates noticeable (significant) difference between the tested populations or not. Without knowing the reasoning for the level of significance used, data collection technique, power, or effect size, all of which could be debated, and I surmise that you understand and would agree with these caveats, the numbers are the numbers. There is a statistical difference between the achievement in math and science between public schools and parochial schools, regardless if you argue otherwise.

Someone in an earlier post mentioned something about thinking critically, in some respect, and I think it you tammmer, concerning the worthiness of the standardized tests used in our schools relative to NCLB. Consider that one can think critically, and subjectively, yet not think logically when problem solving. Therein lays the problem concerning NCLB and standardized testing along with teachers concerns. I see in education an awful lot of critical thinking going on, but often times, if not most times, its subjective analysis and not logical analysis. Think about it this way, I can view an art masterpiece, analyze it critically, yet subjectively, but according to my own tastes and without any logical scrutiny during my analysis. It's my observation that our teacher education programs are deficient in teaching teachers how to think logically to problem solve. I can see where frustration might develop when trying to prepare students for taking standardized tests that require logical scrutiny of similar, potential answers. If our teachers are not prepared with this ability, how can they easily impart this skill to our grade school, middle school, and HS students taking these tests? It might just take them several weeks to prepare for the tests. Having sat on a board for the purpose of developing a recognized, standardized test in a certain content area, I know it is difficult to logically derive the appropriate answer when all the answers appear correct. But that's a problem school administrators making $150,000/year should be addressing.

I talk to college professors on a daily basis. I am WELL aware of the perceived decline in preparedness of incoming college freshmen. I am also well aware having worked in industry what it means to make an employee payroll, try to get quality product out the door on time to customers, and all with an ever shrinking, less-technically capable workforce. And it is the sole reason that I engaged in this topic.

I've presented the other side of the argument. Obviously its your choice whether or not you are willing to accept it or just maintain the conventional wisdom educators are throwing your way. But maybe, just maybe, you might want to start questioning those people that are smiling at you, telling something that might not be altogether true, trying to convince you it is true concerning what’s going on in our educational system, and especially when its politicians (either party) or special interest groups like unions, when they are asserting it with you.

Have a blessed Easter tammer and father bob.

"

" Good grief, yet another name? How do you keep up with your self? "

" That's why he posts messages to himself fb, other than Tom Andres, no one else is as impressed with him as he is with himself. Neocon Macadamia nut, huh? Now I like that. "

" Tammer65- I will assume (mometarily) that along with myself, that most references to well paid teachers would be in the Unit A group. I know that many of the Unit B faculty at EIU didn't get paid any more than I, and some less. I was one of those BSWs (now retired). I also found a web site that allowed anyone to calculate their hourly pay for inflation. The results were that regardless of calculating yearly or my first and last year, BSWs don't make a dime more after inflation during that 27 years.
{And for those other commentors: It is not limited to "government workers" that when they get paid more they do less.} In my 27 years we lost 40-50 positions, so I don't these 'government workers' were doing less. "

" In my 27 years we lost 40-50 positions, so I don't these 'government workers' were doing less. "
--------------
Should have read:
In my 27 years we lost 40-50 positions, so I don't think these 'government workers' were doing less. "

"

" cd:I personally believe that "tenure" should be of the past, not the present or future. Employees of other occupations don't have the benefit of tenure, why should faculty (at any level)? You can still have 'Academic Freedom', just not freedom to teach personal opinion, Liberal or Conservative, just the academic material.
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There's just one problem, cd, and that is that teachers deal with ideas. And as can be seen in these columns, ideas are a very dangerous commodity, like handling fire, and those who are expected to deal with them should have some protections; you wouldn't send a firemen into a fire without proper equipment, would you??
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cd:Is their a possibility that the private sector ''''''''''''''''''''
cd:Is their a possibility that some parents.................................
cd, the word is "THERE", not "their" in this context -- which raises some questions about your qualifications to trash the school system. "

" Hey Cognitis, lets be fair. Working at EIU for a number of years as a janitor would make anyone an expert on the educational system in this country. If not that, having your ear glued to the radio listening to Rush Limbaugh all day would do it. After all, old Limbaugh almost made it through a whole semester of college before flunking out, and Limbaugh talks about the failures of the public school system daily. If there is a problem at EIU, I suspect it is because of the poor quality of janitors there. Hey, cd shouldn't have a monopoly on stupid ideas. I can spout off some too, can't I? "