" Another great letter in response to Ms. Humphrey. One correction, though. I would say that for every one person doing harm in the name of Christ or religion, there are thousands who are truly motivated by love of Christ and man. "

" Again I say:
Here, let me fluff my pillow, & pour myself a big tall glass of ice-tea, the onslaught of the flamboyant preachers are about to take the stage, here in the comment section.
Now, let the fight begin.
Ding Ding! "

" Rotty, though I am not optimistic, I would love to see a dialogue in response to this letter rather than a nasty fight!

Pastor, I acknowledge what Christians are doing "motivated by the love and sacrifice of Christ" to serve Him. You mention some of these activities as does another person whose letter was published this morning. Since I likewise am a Christian I am one of those who "strives to set Him apart as the Lord of their lives, their attitudes and their actions."

You say, "It’s very sad that her [Susan's] perception of Christians has become so commonplace in our society." I would suggest, Pastor, that you and other Christian leaders ask yourselves WHY this perception exists. Do not be so swift to call it "a view from the cheap seats." If Christians, especially Christian leaders, would sidestep their defensiveness when confronted with this perception and take the time to explore why it exists, perhaps we all could learn something.

My view is that the Church needs to clean house. In spite of the good we do in Christ's name, what people too often see is our hypocrisy. Instead of the loving acts of people such as Mrs. Taylor, they see Christians marginalizing individuals different from themselves; for example, gays and lesbians are condemned as being a threat to marriage and family. Actually, heterosexuals (many of them Christian) are responsible for the breakdown of marriage and family in our society (divorce, out-of-wedlock births). This truth is so glaringly obvious, I wonder myself why it has been ignored. Is it because divorce is now widely accpeted in Christian circles?

We now treat divorced people with acceptance and grace--and rightly so. What would happen if we treated gays with that same grace?

Other examples are not difficult to find; historically, the Church has been a bastian of racism and people are fully aware of it. Some of us have read Clarence Thomas' story about how the day Martin Luther King was shot, a fellow seminarian said, "I hope the S-B dies." This happened not so long ago.

There are those Christians who vehemently voice their views about eiminating abortion yet would cut off funding to help children born in poverty.

Unfortunately, the list could go on and on. Pastor, these are only a few of the reasons Christians are perceived so poorly in our society. Unfortunately, these perceptions are not meritless. Rather than being defensive, rather than polarizing our society further by thinking in terms of "us and them," what can be done to change the negative perceptions? "

" Oakland is fortunate indeed to be able to work together, in our "quaint" little village, the Catholic priest from a neighboring town was invited to join the Ministerial Assoc. and immediately, two other churches dropped out. That sets a great example. "

" Mr. Bacon seems to have forgotten that a little over two years ago two young men in Oakland tried to committ suicide. One died and one survived. The parents of the boy who died tried to have the surviving boy charged with murder. He also seems to ignore the monthly police report at the city hall meetings where there are a large number of domestic abuse calls. Also 5 businesses shut their doors and left the community. Property prices are severely depressed. There is unemployment and alcohol abuse problems even though the township is dry. A couple years ago some high school students prepared short essays for a community historical project. Some of the students couldn't write a simple paragraph yet the Oakland school is meeting testing requirements. When I closed my store an elderly woman said that she was born in Kansas married a man from Oakland and moved to town more then fifty years ago, she attends chuch and is still treated like an outsider. The historical properties are deteriorating because too few people (only 6 of us seem to care, and yes I am one a non-Christian) no others can be bothered. A museum group has put on several excellent exhibits and even brought a national Smithsonian exhibit to town that few locals bothered to visit. Mr. Bacon open your eyes, quit feeling so self-righteous. One food pantry project, though valuable, is not enough. There is an overall malaise in Oakland, a dark cloud, that could be lifted if people would take a long hard look at their attitudes and their actions. "

" This is taken from the site http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/nov/03/a-momentous-shift/

"Young Americans are increasingly turning away from Christianity and expressing negative views of the faith, according to a startling new survey by Ventura-based Barna Group.

Only 60 percent of 16- to 29-year-olds describe themselves as Christians, according to Barna Group President David Kinnaman. He believes that figure represents "a momentous shift," noting that 77 percent of Americans over age 60 consider themselves Christians.

"Each generation is becoming increasingly secular," said Kinnaman, who details the findings in his new book "unChristian" (Baker Books).

What's more, young people — Christians and non-Christians alike — feel increasingly disillusioned with the church, according to the results of Kinnaman's three-year research project involving 305 churchgoers and 440 outsiders.

Among young non-Christians, nine out of the top 12 perceptions of Christianity were negative. Large majorities called the church judgmental (87 percent), hypocritical (85 percent) and too involved with politics (75 percent).

Seventy-six percent said Christianity is based on "good values and principles," but many expressed the view that the church has turned away from the teachings of Jesus. Only 16 percent said they have a "good impression" of Christianity.

Even more strikingly, half of young churchgoers agreed with those negative perceptions.

"One of the defense mechanisms Christians use is believing this (unfavorable attitude toward the church) is the result of a negative, or at least skeptical, media," Kinnaman said. "There is certainly some truth to that.

"But what people have told us in this research is they're basing their feelings on their own experiences. Frequently they said, I realize not every Christian is judgmental or hypocritical, but for me, that has been a common experience.'"

"

" Pastor, as long as "christians" continue to polarize other peoples, and try to nationalize and politicize their faith, people are going to push back.

you need to get used to it. "

" a lot of evil men and women get a "free pass" in their everyday activities because they are pastors. "

" VTucker, I agree with the vast majority of your letter, but for one thing -- I think you're just as guilty of judging as those you criticize when you condemn out-of-wedlock births as the cause of the decline of the family. My sister is a single parent, and she does an incredible job. My niece is a well-adjusted, happy child and a good citizen in our community, deeply involved in charitable works. My sister and niece live with me, and we ARE a FAMILY, just a non-traditional one. We instill family values into my niece and we are teaching her to be an upstanding citizen. I assure you, she and our family are not some sort of degenerates responsible for the decline of morality or social values. I'm tired of all single parents being painted with the same brush. "

" I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
— Susan B. Anthony
"

" I’ve never personally met Susan Humphrey’s, so let me be clear that I am in no way judging her motives for publicly railing against Christians and people of faith. I wouldn’t be surprised if I found her to be very kind, thoughtful and articulate.

I do continually ask myself why Christians are the target of ridicule and scorn in 21st century America, and I too believe there are many valid reasons for it. I also recognize that by writing a response to this letter, I’ll probably receive some ridicule of my own. (I know that I deserve some – I’m far from perfect).

I highly recommend the article, “They Love Jesus; They Don't Like the Church, by Michael Craven, Director of the Center for Christ & Culture. The article can be found at http://www.crosswalk.com/pastors/11568526/. He has a really good take on why church membership is declining across the United States.
I hope my use of the phrase, “a view from the cheap seats” doesn’t send the wrong message, so let me clarify. There are millions of people in this world, like Helen Taylor, who wholeheartedly strive to live for Christ and his mandates. There are others who, while calling themselves “Christian,” tend to ride the fence – not really believing or doing anything of real substance, and then there are those who choose to sit in the Coliseum stands, herd all of us with name “Christian” together, and then have their “fun” mocking us because of our inconsistencies. Maybe I’m oversimplifying things here, but it’s how I see it.

The Church in America does need to clean house. What passes for Christianity today is far too often a mamby-pamby, country club, consumer approach to spirituality. I’m not happy about it, and it’s what drives me to stay in the ministry. The majority of mainline Protestant churches have become soft on sin and often convey a lack of love for sinners. You are accurate in every one of your descriptions of how the church has failed Christ and the world, and it’s why I think Susan’s challenge to those in Christian leadership is appropriate in many ways. She’s lit a fire under me, and I hope will do the same in others.

I, for one, am working hard to change those perceptions.


"

" Thanks for speaking out Ichabod, I hadn't heard about that little issue. Another case about Oakland. A little over a year ago the town treasurer called a town meeting to discuss the cities serious financial difficulties. About five citizens showed up. I, a non-Christian was one. There were also two planning meetings held about the same time, out of a population of 1,000 not counting those that live in the school district, township and nearby areas, around 36 people showed up which included the city council members and city employees (12). Again, I a non-Christian was there. I invested in Oakland because I see it's potential. Unfortunately it seems that too many believe what the U of I policeman said, "These are the times in which we live" and believe that there is nothing that can be done about it. "

" When I Say, "I Am A Christian"

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not shouting "I am saved."
I'm whispering "I was lost";
That is why I chose this way.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I don't speak of this with pride.
I'm confessing that I stumble,
And need someone to be my guide.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not trying to be strong.
I'm professing that I'm weak,
And pray for strength to carry on.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not bragging of success.
I'm admitting I have failed,
And cannot ever pay the debt.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I'm not claiming to be perfect.
My flaws are too visible,
But God believes I'm worth it.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I still feel the sting of pain.
I have my share of heartaches,
Which is why I speak His name.

When I say, "I am a Christian,"
I do not wish to judge.
I have no authority;
I only know I'm loved.

~ Copyright 1989, Carol S. Wimmer ~
"

" Eddie B. thanks for speaking up. Sometimes in order to get a fire burning you have to pour a litle gas on the flames and for a bit it flares out of control. Or to put it another way it burns and singes a few that are standing too close. I really believe that there are good Christians as well as not so good ones and that Christianity can and must be part of the solution just as all of the other world religions can and must be part of the solution. "

" To Tammer, on Oprah one day these last few months, she interviewed several people "who made it" in spite of the odds stacked against them. One black woman was left with 5 or 6 young kids when her husband suddenly died. All of them (I think) went to college, and all stayed out of trouble. Oprah asked her how she did it and she said "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus". Then Oprah asked the boys and they said she never let us get away with anything. We were at school or in church. If we weren't she knew exactly where we were and what we were doing. She didn't tell them to do their homework she sat with them at the kitchen table and helped them with their work. She even made learning fun. She taught them to sing song their multiplication tables and the state capitals. One of the boys said that they would ride their bikes around the neighborhood chanting their mantras. The point is that single Mom invested everything she had in her kids. Her faith in Jesus may have given her the strength to carryon and do what she did but she sat there night after night at the table with them. Single parent families are not the problem, race is not the problem, low income is not the problem, many succeed in spite of the odds stacked against them. "

" To His Child you have come far since Christmas. I to have progressed since Christmas and I hope that my spiritual path will continue to progress. I don't want to be the same intellectually, physically, emotionally, or spiritually at 60 or 70 or 80 or... as I was at 20. Each of us must select the path that is right for him or her and follow it as far as they can in this life. You have selected your path and I have chosen mine. I respect your choice just as I hope you respect mine. "

" Tammer65, I meant no offense--I was comparing two groups (homosexuals and heterosexuals) and thinking of statistics rather than individuals. Statistically speaking, it is better for children--and society--to be raised in a home where both parents are present. "

" hischild, what a lovely poem. if more christians would live up to it, the world would be a better place. too often it seems as though christians are looking down their noses at non-christians. i for one was raised catholic and would very much like to raise my children in a faithful environment. i say faithful and not religious because i have yet to find a church where i've felt comfortable. one where the sermons were a discussion and not a lecture. "

" Excellent articulation by Dr. Bacon, but unfortunately, the truth he proclaims will be missed by Susan H. and her crew of haters. Using her logic, we should "hate on" all Americans because some in our land do evil acts. Or, using this 6th grade intellect (actually, my 6th grader is even above this), all St. Louis Cardinal players and fans should be hated because their manager got a DUI last year. I may sound like I'm angry w/ SH, but in reality, I'm just really sad for her - because she misses the most important point when in comes to followers of Christ - and here it is:

Do Christians fall short? Absolutely - every day and in probably almost every way. But it's not about being perfect - it's about being forgiven - and reaping the benefits of grace. SH, let me encourage you to turn your hate for Christians into an honest look at Jesus Christ - I think you might be surprised what you will find! "

" Thanks for clarifying, VTucker. I was raised in a traditional 2-parent home with a responsible, loving mom and dad, for which I am very grateful. However, it's not safe to assume that all 2-parent homes are equally wonderful. Many cases of child sexual abuse, other physical abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect happen in that statistically "ideal" situation, a home with both parents present. I am single, never married, and have no children of my own, though I think of my niece as my almost-daughter, because I'm helping to raise her, but I think that non-traditional environment of a parent and another caring adult (a grandparent, an aunt or uncle, etc.) to help provide support and love to a child, can work just as well as the mom-and-dad, never-divorced scenario in which I was raised. And I have acquaintances who have divorced and are single, custodial parents -- there children are much happier and more well-adjusted post-divorce than they were living in their 2-parent homes when Dad was hitting Mom or when Mom and Dad were constantly screaming at each other. "

" Iccgreg either you are a day late and a dollar short or you can't read. Which is it? I have said time and time again I don't hate Christians, I disapprove of those that use Christianity to justify their fears and hate of all of those that are different from them. I have said that the Bible is a good book and full of great wisdom. It is just not the only good book and doesn't have the corner on all wisdom. I have said that all the worlds religions have the potential to help people become better people. They also have the potential to be abused and help people become worse people. Which person are you? "

" Thank you for writing this letter Pastor Ed Bacon. HisChild, nice poem, I missed you, where've you been? "

" In his “When Religion Becomes Evil: Five Warning Signs,” religion professor Charles Kimball told us to watch out for these ominous signals in religious groups – 1) claiming absolute truth; 2) seizing upon an “ideal time;” citing imminent disaster or looming “end times;” 3) demanding blind obedience; 4) using ends to justify means, as in cheerful acceptance of “collateral damage” and 5) waging “holy war.” You will note that American fundamentalists have long since hurtled past all five signposts of danger, shouting their hosannas all the way. "

" The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
— Thomas Jefferson "

" High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.
Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.
"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.
Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances. "

" I too am writing in response to shumphries letter and many of her comments. I have set back and read her and many other"s opions who have tried to "straighten out" christians. She and many others have have set themseles up as judge and jury of a religon they have just rudimentary knowledge of. First of all God's Word is not judged by any other book or religon it stands by itself and is judged by itself. Next, all christians are NOT perfect nor do we claim to be. We are on our way. True christianity is not a religon but a relationship with a (THE) living God and a willingness to change. You see the jouney is to accept people as they are...not as WE think they should be, nor as some dead god says they should be or as some book written by a wise person says is the road to greater understanding. Then we are trusting nothing but our own intellect or someone (human) else and make of our selves our god. I do not try to change you by what I say because I may say the right words at an appointed(kiros) time and you will see the light, but it's not up to me when your time is, or even what the circumstance are or if you will ever understand what I understand by faith. Maybe, just maybe someday some of you will bump into something that you cannot handle by yourself............. All I know that I feel sorry for those of you who feel you must must be nasty and hateful or condesending towards a people you don't understand. Am I a christian? You bet I am! And proud to be called by the name of Christ. By the way we believers were first called christians at Antioch and that word means little Christ. And that is what we are suppposed to be and to strive towards that goal. The journey is a life-long journey and and exciting one. "

" Q: Sounds like ol’ Benny was trippin’ on something when he wrote his article. In fact, I don’t doubt it in the least. It seems in ol’ Ben’s work these days, he has “been investigating the special state of mind induced by psychoactive brew ayahuasca.” [According to inrees.com – the institute for research on extraordinary experiences] Avahuasca is – as I’m sure EVERYONE knows – “A hallucinogenic brew made from the bark and stems of a tropical South American vine of the genus Banisteriopsis, especially B. caapi, mixed with other psychotropic plants, used especially in shamanistic rituals by certain Amazonian Indian peoples.” [The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved March 05, 2008, from Dictionary.com website:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ayahuasca.

This, of course, makes Benny an authority on the effect on narcotics but using drugs to enhance his experience in shamanistic rituals doesn’t exactly make him the resident authority on Old Testament. A “special state of mind” indeed.
"

" The Question wrote on Mar 5, 2008 9:46 AM:
" The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
— Thomas Jefferson "

Can’t argue with THIS one, either. Heck, the day is already here when people class Jesus as a fable. That doesn’t make them right . . . . it just makes those people of the same opinion. After reading Thomas Jefferson’s papers, history, etc., you cannot tell me that HE felt that way. "

" Jay C you say you have read what I have written but then you say that I am here to "straighten out " Christians. You don't seem to be able to read very well. What you believe is irrelevant to the points I am making. ALL that matters is what anyone does in the name of God if that is what you claim as your authority and justification for your actions or in the case of those that don't believe in God what you do to your fellow man. If people can't move beyond their self-righteousness, beyond their sense that "right belief" is all that matters, this world will be as the U of I policeman said "this is a sign of the times". What an epitaph for the US (you can read that as United States or as in we the people), "It failed to recognize the times in time to change them." This letter is about facing reality and making a committment to make changes so that more young people don't grow up in a climate that promotes fear and hate of all those that are different, with the feeling that there is nothing for them in this world, disenfranchised and out of touch with reality. Religion including Christianity can and must be a part of the solution. BUT religion is not and must not be the only solution. "

" shumphreys wrote on Mar 4, 2008 1:30 PM:
“Her faith in Jesus may have given her the strength to carryon and do what she did but she sat there night after night at the table with them.”

Susan – you are absolutely correct! The only thing I would change in this would be the words “may have” to “did”. Outside of that – we’re on the same exact page. I’ve had so many answers to prayer in my life that I can’t count them all. I’ve already had two this week. And even though God answered my prayers, it was still important that I DO something. It’s NOT that “God helps those who help themselves.” at all, but God will do those things you CAN’T do. Just like raising Lazarus from the dead in John 11, Jesus could have thought the thought and turned the stone to dust, but he told the people to roll the stone away. We do what WE can do and God will do what we CAN’T do.

And in regard to your comment “. . . religion is not and must not be the only solution.”, I couldn’t agree more. Religion is not the solution to anything. ACTING on one’s religious beliefs CAN be the solution to several things. You know my particular “religious” beliefs so we don’t have to cover them here. But you also know that I recognize that the majority of religious beliefs – no matter the religion – are rooted in what our society sees as “moral principles”. Most all religions preach you should love others and be tolerant of others even if they don’t agree with you. Heck . . . if we could just get to THAT point, things would be better. Wouldn't you agree? "

" Of course Jefferson believed that. If you've read anything about him at all, you know he rewrote the New Testament to eilminate all the miracles.
Jefferson called his own version of the New Testament, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth." He intended it, he said, as "a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." This was clearly a defense against many enemies who wanted to brand him an atheist. His biographer Joseph Ellis, however, noted that Jefferson was being disingenuous. "If [Jefferson] had been completely scrupulous, he would have described himself as a deist who admired the ethical teachings of Jesus as a man rather than as the son of God. (In modern-day parlance, he was a secular humanist.)," Ellis wrote. "

" To: shumphreys: I don’t quite follow your post of Mar 4, 2008 8:30 AM. Certainly there are an abundance of things going wrong not only in the Oakland community but in just about every community in the United States. Maybe Oakland for its size has more than its share of bad stuff and maybe it doesn't – I don’t know and that’s not really my point. I don’t see how all the problems in Oakland have anything to do with what Rev. Bacon wrote. Granted, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I generally can follow your posts pretty well. This one’s got me puzzled. Thanks. M@H "

" If Christianity could stay on its core message of love and hope, we'd probably be perceived a lot better.

Jesus spent his life wandering the world helping people. If that was the face of modern Christianity, I think we'd have less of a PR problem. "

" To M@H Bacon seems to think that the Oakland ministers are doing great things and that is all that matters. They are doing good things. BUT they are also ignoring the problems, the signs of malaise in their own communities.Has he joined the Chamber of Commerce or helped out the local historical society? Does he participate in public meetings and planning sessions? Before he tells us how "holy" he is I think he should look at the world around him. Ichabod pointed out that when the Catholic Priest was invited to join the Oakland Ministerial alliance two of the pastors quit. Now that is "a sign of the times". Mr. Bacon needs to open his eyes to see what is happening right in his own town. Oakland is no exception. There are signs of malaise in every community and all TOO many prefer to look the other way. The point of my initial letter is that ministers must begin to examine their own towns, the next suicide shooter might be walking down their streets. Are they responsible for spreading a climate of fear and hate towards those that don't believe what they believe? Are they ignoring the beam in their own eye while spending all their efforts to remove the splinter in others eyes? Self-examination is not narciscism, it is the first step towards changing "the times in which we live". "

" Question, I have to admit that I did not know that about Thomas Jefferson. Really. I'm going to assume you are correct - don't get used to THAT - and not research it, but that gets me to wondering . . . .

If Thomas Jefferson wrote a book or dissertation that was supposed to be proof that he was Christian in which he was less than completely scrupulous or in fact – disingenuous, then what about all of his other writings? I don’t want to besmirch a former president’s reputation but it seems enough has been done in the last ten years or so to HIS reputation that what I do is but a drop in the bucket.

But now a lot makes perfect sense. With what you’ve shown me in mind, I wonder which of his writings one can take at face value and which ones were written to completely confuse his readership. In other words, how do we know Thomas Jefferson really believed anything he wrote? Which side do we choose? If we know, HOW do we know? Did someone ask him? If they did, how do we know whether or not he told the truth? About the only way we really know what Thomas Jefferson was REALLY thinking is to have gotten into his head and read his mind – which I’m going to assume nobody did.

So . . . did he REALLY believe in the separation of church and state or was he just being unscrupulous and disingenuous? This is all making sense to me now. Thomas Jefferson . . . . recognized as the father of the Democrat Party . . . . we don’t know whether he was telling the truth or not. Ah, the more things change . . . the more they stay the same.

Thanks for enlightening me. "

" Susan: Thanks for clearing that up. Of course, I don't know exactly what is going on in Oakland since I live 650 miles away, so I wouldn't know if he was ignoring all the stuff that was going on or not. "

" Kyle I agree but I am afraid Jesus would be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail. I think his message has been lost by those that are more concerned with "right beliefs". "

" Imagine a guy in a scruffy beard, given to spending time in the countryside and wandering a lot.

Imagine that guy calls for a liberalization of the current church beliefs, with much less influence on behavior and more on attitude.

Imagine he reaches out to convicts, gays, drug dealers on a daily basis, and says we should not "throw stones" at them, metaphorically or literally.

Imagine that man became influential in the church.

Now imagine the letters to the editor he would provoke from all sides. "

" If Thomas Jefferson wrote a book or dissertation that was supposed to be proof that he was Christian in which he was less than completely scrupulous or in fact – disingenuous, then what about all of his other writings?
----
I think you're missing the point. Ellis said that Jefferson's claim to a be Christian was somewhat disingenuous because, although Jefferson admitted he admired Jesus' moral philosophy, he did not believe Jesus had supernatural origins or powers. Jefferson's writings — his public papers and private letters — are voluminous, and provide plenty of evidence as to what he really believed. He was a deist. "

" Kyle imagine if that "guy" was a woman? "

" to M@H the problem with quoting famous people, which we all do, is that we forget that even they, the great ones, change over time. When there are differences in what a person says, perhaps we should check the sequence, the time some things were written. I don't want to be the same intellectually, physically, emotionally, spiritually at 60, 70 or 80 as I was at 20. I would hope that I continue to grow and develop because I think that is what living is all about, becoming the best that you can be. "

" Love your neighbor, stop burning stuff, that is hateful. "

" Mark Biskeborn — In the US, after Christians, the second largest group is secular. We don’t hear from this group because they’re not organized and, unlike the Christians and especially Jews, they don’t lobby or bribe politicians for special demands. Despite the fact that a huge portion of the American population doesn’t pray, we bend over backwards to accommodate those who do, especially the Christians. We’ve even begun to throw out scientific method in schools for the sake of “creationism”—some half-baked “faith-based” explanations about how the world was formed and how humans arrived on earth. "

" Okay folks, so what points am I missing? Question says I’m missing the point because Mr. Jefferson’s claim to being Christian was SOMEWHAT disingenuous. But that’s not what the original post said. The word “somewhat” wasn’t there. I gotta take what I’m reading at face value. But isn’t “somewhat disingenuous” about the same as “kinda pregnant”? Just tell me which of Jefferson’s writings to believe and which ones were disingenuous . . . or “somewhat” disingenuous. That’s not too much to ask.

Susan says I’m missing the point because people change over time and we aren’t who we were and we don’t believe the same today as we did years ago. Although with that, I must agree because I’m not the same today as I was at 20, either. But Thomas Jefferson hasn’t changed in a couple hundred years. At what point do we draw the line and say “this is what he REALLY REALLY REALLY believed?

Now we have to determine whether Mr. Jefferson was truthful, disingenuous or “somewhat” disingenuous and exactly where along his development it was when he said whatever it was he said. This is getting all too confusing. This is beginning to sound like Bill Clinton wasn’t the FIRST person to want clarification on the definition of what the word “is” is. "

" That is the idea -- that we should all be wicked if we did not hold to the Christian religion. It seems to me that the people who have held to it have been for the most part extremely wicked. You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs. In the so-called Ages of faith, when men really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness, there was the Inquisition, with all its tortures; there were millions of unfortunate women burned as witches; and there was every kind of cruelty practiced upon all sorts of people in the name of religion.
— Bertrand Russell "

" To the Equalizer unfortunately it is sometimes necessary to light a fire under someone to get them to move. It is unfortunate if they get burned or scorched. If they had moved faster it wouldn't have happened. There have been plenty of opportunities for people to move over the last two years. What will it take to get you to move beyond your self/ego? "

" Susan, you misread Ichabod's post -- the incident he referred to about the Catholic priest and the ministerial association did NOT happen in Oakland. He said that it happened in HIS village, which was not named. "

" The Question (Mar 5, 2008 9:46 AM), Let’s take a look at that quote from Thomas Jefferson that you took out of context and see what he really said.
"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated Reformer of human errors."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
Letter to John Adams
11 April 1823
"

" Hi SH - sorry I've been slow to respond - I've been busy working and serving, and unable to sit around on the computer. I've got a challenge for you - my guess is you are probably free on Sundays (and most days): take the next two months and spend your Sundays visiting the churches you are so down on and are so quick to criticize. My guess is a couple of things will happen if you allow your heart to be open.

First, you'll quickly realize that while all Christians fall short of perfection, the love of Christ is alive and active in Oakland, Illinois. Second, your Negative Nelly view on the church and on life in general might not be 100% true after all. Finally, you might realize that the message of Christ - faith, hope and love, along with God's grace and forgiveness - is a much better "retirement plan" than seperation, loneliness and bitterness. "

" "The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words."
----
Good quote, and thanks for it. jefferson is saying that people who claim Jesus was a supernatural being have perverted his message. "

" Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820
----
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
----
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
---- "

" Luke Beanwalker you misread what he said. "

" The all mighty & powerful Rotty will now bring all of us scattered nuts under one roof!

There is a God, that we ALL may rely on. It's there 24/7/365!

Let me introduce you all to the "Porcelain God" - Your Toilet!

Thank You, Donations will be accepted at the door, on your way out.

TADA! LOL!

"

" to Iccgreg I am in church every day of the week when I take a walk in my woods. I suggest that you spend some time reading a mind opening book, like the Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching or might I even suggest my own book, "Searching for Enlightenment, Gnosticism for a New Millenium", available at Amazon.com. It might just shock you out of your complacency and to broaden that narrow mind of yours a bit. Are you just sitting in church or are you actively participating in your community? Do you volunteer with community groups or attend public meetings? Do you shop locally trying to keep a small grocery store going? Where do you buy your gas? What about your kids are they being taught to respect all people or are they the bullies that have been a problem or the vandals that turned over headstones a year ago? Are you one of the ones that the police chief has had to wrestle with on a domestic dispute call? Or are you one of the ones that has turned his back on a battered neighbor lady, prefering not to get involved? I could go on and on and on. The point is what are you doing to make your community a better place for ALL people and to give the school students the tools they will need to succeed in a world beyond the boundaries of your small town? "

" No, Susan, you are the one who has misread Ichabod's comment, and you need to rectify your mistake, not only for Oakland's reputation, but for your own credibility. I will concede that poor punctuation made his message a bit hard to understand, so let me break it down for you. Ichabod begins by saying "Oakland is fortunate indeed to be able to work together," and then goes on to talk about HIS town by saying, "in our 'quaint' little village, the Catholic priest from a neighboring town was invited to join the Ministerial Assoc. and immediately, two other churches dropped out." As further evidence that he's not talking about Oakland here, just think about the obvious -- the nearest Catholic church is 15 miles away in Arcola, and they wouldn't be joining the Oakland Ministerial Association anyway -- only churches in Oakland are involved. Besides, if two of the members of the OMA had dropped out, the membership would be cut in half, and that hasn't happened. Can you admit you're wrong on this, or do we need to question your reading-comprehension skills AND your ability to own up to being wrong? "

" To Iccgreg I might also add that when I built my building I used a local contractor, my building insurance is with a local agency,when my building needs repairs I hire local people, I have transferred the maintenance of my farm equipment to a local firm, I have an account with a local bank, I attend public meetings when they are called if I can and I volunteer my time with a local historical group. I may not be a Christian but I have and I am doing what little I can for the community. You have proved my point that people judge one on church attendance not on what that persons actions are. It doesn't matter what church you attend or whether you attend any. What matters is what you are doing for your community and how you treat your fellow man.What are you doing for your community? "

" SH -

I glad you enjoy your walk in the woods each day, but please don't think for a moment your nature walk takes the place of the community of Christ. Don't dodge the challenge - give the community of Christ a chance!

And let me be the first to say, "thanks for shopping locally and doing business in town." While I don't live in Oakland, I also support the many places of business in the town where I serve.

However, you once again are missing the point - it's not about shopping in town - it's not about being "good enough" - it's just not. I'll be the first to state - I'm not good enough - Dr. Bacon's not good enough - and neither are you or any other human. We have all sinned and fall short of God's glory.

The great thing about the Christian faith, however, is the Grace of God - I can't imagine trying to live this life without it. "

" Iccgreg when I was 20 I read Sidhartha. I discovered that Christianity did not have all the answers and I set out to discover what those answers were. Along the way I discovered that many Christians are not even asking the right questions. I have attended Christian churches, a Unitarian church as a child and a Methodist church where I sang in a choir. I have attended Jewish services and Catholic Mass (in Latin, English and Spanish). It makes no difference where someone finds or communes with their God or whether they walk in the woods for the pure pleasure. I have moved beyond Christianity. I don't expect you to believe what I believe. You may never get beyond your present state. It doesn't matter. All that matters is how you treat your fellow man whatever their religion or lack thereof. "

" Luke beanwalker let Ichabod settle the argument. There are Catholics living in Oakland, a Catholic parish covers a very broad area, not just the town where the church happens to be located. If the priest for this area hasn't been invited to join the Oakland ministerial alliance he should be. And yes I am well aware that if two dropped out that would rather severly deplete the membership. "

" To The Question? You are not able to understand what Jefferson said are you and you are still just trying to quote it in part. You need it explained to you! You Question are one of the expositors of the enemies of Jesus Christ. You fancy yourself as one to speak for them. And you do it without any foundation in his genuine words. That day has come and is now here when men and women like you class him with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. “The genuine doctrines of this most venerated Reformer of human errors” That is the genuine doctrine of Jesus Christ the Reformer of human errors. Note how Jefferson capitalized “Reformer” a sure clue he was speaking of God the Son Jesus Christ the Reformer of human errors.
Perhaps “Question” you need to take a class that will improve your reading comprehension abilities before you continue as an expositor for the enemies of Jesus Christ because you are doing them no favor.
"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated Reformer of human errors."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
Letter to John Adams
11 April 1823
"

" Oh and Luke beanwalker, I am not the one that brought the Village of Oakland into this discussion. The paper requires that letters to the editor have the address of the person writing and they publish the community name. Also you can blame Mr. Bacon for bringing the discussion to a more personal/community level. Oakland has it's good points and it's not so good points. It has good people and not so good people. Failure to see both is part of the problem that small towns face. AND small towns all across America are in trouble in more ways then one. Oakland just happens to be the town that appears on my address. AND Oakland is in trouble and it isn't because I don't attend church in town. "

" OK, Susan, if you still can't see that Ichabod was obviously talking about a different town, I guess the answer to my question is that I need to doubt your reading-comprehension skills. If Ichabod gets on here and clarifies that he was, in fact, talking about a different town, we'll see about the "ability to own up to being wrong" part. "

" Susan, it's great that you support the community's businesses, that you attend public meetings, and that you work toward saving/promoting the town's historical structures. But while those are all commendable uses of your time and money, I fail to see how they address most of the big problems you've mentioned about society.

How do those activities teach kids not to be bullies or vandals? How do they prevent domestic abuse? How do they deter alcohol abuse? How do they teach our youth that all lives -- theirs and others -- are of value?

You mentioned the community's tragic loss of a teenager in 2004, but you failed to mention that Oakland Christian Church did respond by creating a youth center that is succeeding in providing the youth a fun, safe, positive place to hang out. It's run entirely by Christian volunteers who freely give up their free time to help others, and it's having a direct impact on kids' lives.

Choose to look for the negative, and you will find it. Choose to look for the positive, and you will find that, too. "

" To Luke Beanwalker, the point I was making about my community involvement is that people should not be judged by whether they attend your church or not. Good citizens, participate in many ways in a community, including the many that I have mentioned and the ones you have mentioned. They are all vital to making a vital, healthy community and Oakland, like other small towns needs more people who are willing and able to participate at every level whatever their religion or lack thereof. It takes all of us working together. Creating a sound healthy community economically is one part of creating an environment where strong healthy kids can be raised. "

" Now then back to my original letter. A food pantry is an important project and an honorable one. BUT it also doesn't address your question of "How do these activities teach kids not to be bullies or vandalize cemeteries?" AND that is what the purpose of my first letter was about, getting people to address those specific issues. Unfortunately men like Mr. Bacon seem to have gotten hung up on the letters headline which I have pointed out was misleading and deceptive. The point is that a U of I police officer commented that "it is a sign of the times". AND I challenged ministers and individuals to take a long and hard look at their selves and their communities. Because I believe that we can change these times and create a better world for ALL people. That we can make Oakland a stronger and more viable community one that can survive another 100 years. I believe that we can give young people the "life training skills" they need to make it in a world outside of Oakland or Charleston or...... AND I believe that religion can and must be PART of the solution but it must never become the ONLY solution. "

" The whole quote from Jefferson exactly supports my point, Jon — Jefferson is saying that Jesus' "primitive and genuine doctrine" — his original sayings — will be restored, free of "this artificial scaffolding" of supernatural belief. You seem to be deliberately ignoring the obvious. "

" NOW let's move on further. ICCgreg asks why don't I give the Christian community a chance and join his or some other Christian church. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind want to join his church or any Christian church for that matter after reading what he and many Christians have said in the Letters to the Editor, in the Clergy View columns on the religious page, on these posts. Now M@H will try to apologize once again for the actions of these others, saying all Christians are not like that. I told him once before he is only responsible for his own actions and can not apologize for the actions of others. BUT why didn't he speak up in a Letter to the Editor, or in a challenge on the Clergy View page, he did speak up on these online comments. Not a single minister spoke out against the Rev. Mike Southards when he claimed that those that accept evolution are destroying the moral foundations of our society. What do you think might have happened to Methodist church attendance if one Methodist minister wrote a Letter to the Editor and said that is not what my church believes. The Methodist church accepts the reality of evolution and we feel that the foundations of a moral society are built upon responsible actions not on whether you are a Christian or not. We feel that our members can be and must be well educated in Science and History and knowledge of other world religions. We would like to invite you to our church and see how we are different from Mr. Southards church. As long as one minister doesn't speak out against those that abuse the religion, the whole religion gets tarred with the same brush. This is one part of what I mean when I said that every minister must examine his/her own actions. Can't you see it now, dueling churches. Each trying to show that they are more inclusive, more loving, more caring, more like Jesus would really have wanted them to be then the other guy! "

" SH - I guess we will just need to agree to disagree - your tolerance and inclucivism is available for anyone and anything EXCEPT Christianity. And that is where I find the great hypocrisy in the beliefs and thoughts of the anti-Christian crew you are a part of.

You are the first to point the finger of blame anytime someone does or says something stupid in the name of Christ or in the name of the church. However, you refuse to admit that secular -progressives have also said and done stupid things as well - they just get a free pass.

And you are obviously not anywhere near as open-minded as you want to appear in your proclamations. You keep refusing my challenge to give Christ and His church an honest and open look. Eight weeks - that is all I'm asking - suspend the nature hikes just eight times over the next two months and give the community of Christ a chance in the town you claim to love so much.

Maybe you are afraid of a Josh McDowell like experience? Don't forget - he began with a hard heart and plan to disprove Christianity (I bet he sounded a lot like you) and instead was converted to Christ and is today one of the world's great Christian Apologists.

SH, here is the best news of all for you - even as you trash Christ's church and His followers - He loves you anyway - with passion - don't ever lose sight of that! "

" SH - So if I reject evolution because I believe in the Biblical theory of Creation instead of the secular theory of evolution, then I'm a bigot somehow? Surely you are not saying that a creationist is required to be tolerant of an evolutionist, but not vice-versa? "

" Iccgreg, you said to S.H., "However, you refuse to admit that secular -progressives have also said and done stupid things as well - they just get a free pass." Whatever the secular progressives say and do, they generally don't claim to be saying it or doing it on God's behalf. That is a huge difference.

I believe you have completely missed Susan's point. She and I would be poles apart if we were to meet and discuss religion. I know she does not share my Christian beliefs, but I certainly do not feel "trashed" by the fact that she disagrees with me.

The point I tried to make in my posts on this thread was that Christians have done more damage to the body of Christ (at least in our society) than non-believers have. Instead of acknowledging the hypocrisy that is rampant in the Christian subculture, you seem to make excuses for poor behavior and shut off open conversation by referring to S.H. and "her crew of haters." (And then you invite her to go to church--why would she want to?)

As I told J. Vanatta who made similar excuses, people really do not care about your statements pertaining to, "Do Christians fall short? Absolutely - every day and in probably almost every way. But it's not about being perfect - it's about being forgiven - and reaping the benefits of grace." As a Christian, I understand what you're saying . . . but why should anyone else? It sounds as if you're making a reason for poor behavior into an excuse; further, you seem to get upset when people reject this excuse.
"

" To Iccgreg I have said time and time again I don't hate Christians.I have said time and time again that the Bible is a good book but not the only good book. I have said time and time again that Christianity is right for some people and not right for others. I have called time and time again for respect for ALL people, and that includes Christians. I have also explained time and time again my tactics and reasons for challenging Christians to become better Christians. Why are you having a difficult time accepting the fact that I have examined Christianity from top to bottom and rejected it? "

" AND ccgreg you are right I have never said that a Creationist must be tolerant of an Evolutionist, but not vice-versa. Bigot is a strange word to use, I would say you are ignorant, and blind but a Bigot? I think you should check your dictionary. What it all comes down to is where do you stand? Do you think that ALL people should be treated equally in regards to the law and with respect whatever their race, ethnicity, sexual preference, religion or lack thereof? I do. "

" Oh and one other thing Iccgreg, instead of wasting eight weeks in your church why don't you come here and we can spend the time reading the world's sacred texts together. We can start with the oldest first, The Upanishads, The Tao teh Ching, The Analects of Confucius. I have a book by Black Elk and Hymehosts Storm about American Indian religious concepts. I have writings by Buddhist masters and of course I have Siddhartha. I'd love to sit down with you and share this sacred literature. "

" to Vicky thanks for chiming in again. People it seems have to demonize the other. ICCgreg is having trouble facing the fact that I am a good citizen, as I pointed out in other posts, even though I don't go to his church. I have tried to get people to judge others not by their beliefs but by their actions. It appears that this is going to be hand to hand combat, so to speak, one person at a time. Instead of moving mountains with my great words of wisdom, I will have to fight for each inch of ground. It really is quite silly if it wasn't so important. What you or I believe is irrelevant (except to our selves). Arguing doctrine is a waste of time. BUT it isn't a waste of time to try and put and end to the fear and hate so that we can all share this world and live in some sort of harmony with everyone else. If I have to argue about what the Bible says I will. If I have to be rude I will. I have moved beyond my self to look at the bigger picture and so have you and a few others on these posts. "

" V Tucker, when have I made excuses? Would you review them for me? What I don’t understand is that as a Christian why do you find it so much more necessary to criticize your brothers and sisters then it is to criticize those who hate Christians. I am not suggesting you hate non-Christians even when they rail against us and I don’t think you do, but we should show love for our brothers and sisters and be able to accept their wrongs and short comings as well as those of non-Christians. Susan says she rejects Christianity and that’s her choice but she does more than just reject it she vehemently places herself on higher ground and from that assumed level tries to tear down Christianity. She asserts that Christians should not proselytize and then proselytizes for Gnosticism. Vicky our support should be not only for the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but also for our fellow Christians. Jesus was speaking of two groups of people when he said this in 1 John 3:13-14
”Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.“ Vicky it is the world that hates us not fellow Christians.
"

" Mr. Vanatta why are you insisting on making this an "us" against "them" issue. That is what we are trying to get people to move away from. I don't hate Christians and have said that time and time again. Criticizing the abuses of Christians, their use of the bible and their religion to promote fear and hate of all others,is not hate. I don't give a hoot what you believe. I only care what you do in the name of God because that is the root of much of the evil in this world. Note I said much not all. AND I have a right to live in peace in this world without a bunch of religious fanatics destroying each other, and anyone else who happens to get in their way and the world along with them. Since none of their religious leaders have the moral fortitude, courage, or will to speakup and speak out to break this constant cycle of hate and violence then I will. I am sorry you have difficulty with someone who is on a different spiritual and moral plane then yourself. Notice I said different plane, I am not better then you or Christians. I am only fed up with you and Christians that preach hate and I am willing to try to stop it. "

" Good evening, Jon. I was referring to several posts (made some time ago) in which you made comments about Christians not being perfect. Please do not misunderstand; read my 3/2 8:32 post with its statistics, and also Eddie B.'s linked article. It isn't a matter of accepting or not accepting the shortcomings of other Christians.

What I hear, and what those outside the faith hear, are Christians who gloss over their own shortcomings ("I'm not perfect, just forgiven") while SIMULTANEOUSLY pointing an accusing or condemning finger at non-believing folks. The example I used earlier was divorce, which occurs among Bible-believing Christians as often as it does among non-Christians (see Barna's polls). Jesus spoke out against divorce, but many Bible-believing Christians have become quite comfortable with it. The problem is, some are quick to condemn homosexuality while ignoring divorce and its associated problems.

As Christians, we are not called to sweep our moral lapses and other shortcomings under the carpet while pointing out those of "the world." As I said earlier, we need to stop making excuses ("I'm not perfect") and do a little housecleaning.

I don't think Susan is tearing down Christianity--she couldn't tear it down if she tried. It is Christians who tear down Christianity by making it a laughing stock.

I realize there will always be a few who simply don't believe for intellectual reasons. But I think most people don't believe because of what they have experienced from Christians. What I need to do, what you need to do, what the church needs to do is to live and operate in a way that is actually Christ-like. "

" Susan, I believe there are many reasons why Christian leaders do not speak up about the issues you have mentioned. (Realizing that some Christian leaders do, from time to time, voice opinions on these issues.) Some pastors speak out in their congregations; I have heard a few do that. These tend to be in the more "liberal" congregations--though not always.

Many Christians who are more conservative in their views tend to have little interest in social activism as they believe hearts changed through conversion will take care of society's problems.

As far as the evolution issue goes, I don't believe many Christian leaders would think it that important to speak out on, one way or the other.

Another reason has to do with the fact that most pastors have very little free time on their hands. I have known several pastors personally, well enough to know that their jobs are demanding ones (often physically and always emotionally). What they do is a matter of priorities.

There are other reasons, of course, but these are ones that immediately came to mind. "

" Vicky I also came up with those "excuses". We can always find a reason to justify our actions. The point I am making is that if ministers and others want to stop the misperceptions they need to speak out in public forums, not just from their own pulpit or homes because it is the public forums people see and read.AND because the people that need to hear the message are not sitting in their churches but are at home reading their papers and watching the nightly news.The old saying is that you get only one opportunity to make a first impression. What is the first impression most people are getting from Christians and where are they getting that impression? "

" What happened to you Mr. Vanatta? Did your father fill your head with fears as you were growing up? When did you stop learning about the world and how it works and the wonderful diversity of her peoples? Some people raised as you are turn away from religion, some become disillusioned and struggle all their lives, some become mass murderers. You are an example of how religion can stifle a soul and keep it from soaring. How sad, what a waste, what a tragedy. How many young people are being raised as you were--to be afraid of "the other", to look for hate and persecution in every look or every sentence, how many souls are being stifled and filled with hate, all because people are afraid to learn about the world and her peoples. "

" To All I am not calling for ministers to start prosylytyzing (sp?) where they go door to door or stand on street corners and in public spaces accosting folks that walk by. Whose voice is the voice of Christianity that people are hearing around the world these days? It is Joh Hagee. He was the topic of discussion on Bill Moyers Journal this week he has appeared on CNN. Where are our world's religious leaders. Is Hagee's voice the only voice we want the world to hear. Again the world religious leaders can denounce him and say that what he preaches is not what most Christians think. As I said in much earlier posts, silence is complicity. "

" Mr. Vanatta: I am not answering for VTucker or shumphreys nor would I ever attempt to answer for them, so this is purely MY response to your questions, but . . .

Jon Vanatta wrote on Mar 8, 2008 10:19 AM:

“as a Christian why do you find it so much more necessary to criticize your brothers and sisters then it is
to criticize those who hate Christians”

1)I do not find it necessary to criticize my brothers and sisters, but I DO find it necessary to correct them when they are portraying scripture or Christianity in a way that is contrary to the truth. You know the Bible as well as I do so I won’t quote chapter and verse to you but it says we are not to judge NON-Christians not that we are not to judge Christians. You cannot judge non-Christians by Christian standards. They will not conform (please note I said “conform” not “live up”) to Christian standards. This cannot be a surprise to you. To judge someone according to standards that they do not believe to have merit is . . . well . . . not really too smart.
2)We MUST judge Christians as it is our duty to guard against false doctrine. I’m not saying YOU are preaching false doctrine, but you would agree, I’m sure, that false doctrine DOES find its way into our society.
3)Christians who don’t walk the talk MUST be corrected as this is exactly what turns NON-Christians into Christian-haters.


“we should show love for our brothers and sisters and be able to accept their wrongs and short comings”

1)Godly correction IS showing love for our brothers and sisters.
2)I don’t know where it says in the Bible that we should “accept” Christians’ wrongs . . . only that we should “forgive” Christians’ wrongs and only after they have been corrected. There’s a difference.


"she vehemently places herself on higher ground and from that assumed level tries to tear down Christianity.”

1)Susan does NOT place herself on higher ground nor does she try to tear down Christianity. I have traded personal emails with Susan for some time now and she has NEVER attempted to tear down Christianity – only to suggest that there are other religions. NEWSFLASH: There ARE other religions. That much is fact. Whether you and I believe they are right or wrong is of no consequence . . . they EXIST.
2)What Susan is against (sorry, Susan for speaking for you but you and I are in agreement on this) is Christians who try to shove Christianity down non-Christians’ throats. Don’t come back at me with the Great Commission argument. I know what it says and it DOESN’T say “Go into all the world and shove the Gospel down everyone’s throat”. That’s what Susan is against . . . and so am I . . . and so YOU should be as well.

“our support should be not only for the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ but also for our fellow Christians”

1)Our support should be for the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
2)We cannot blindly support Christians and their incorrect or inappropriate teachings just because they’re Christians. This is not a college fraternity. This is a group promoting eternity. Pray for them, yes . . . but speak out when the situation suggests protest is order.


“it is the world that hates us not fellow Christians”

1)This is true on the surface but it has been my experience to be hated by both Christians and non-Christians and I’ll tell you for sure . . . there is no hatred as strong, as vile, as vicious and as spitefully savage as that dispensed by Christians when they think they’ve been wronged, challenged or especially when they are being lovingly corrected for saying something that is blatantly not true.
2)Non-Christians hate Christians because of their attitudes as Christians toward non-Christians. Since the beginning of the year, I’d bet (don’t make any statements about Christians betting – you know what I mean) there have been more than 100 posts regarding the way in which Christians approach non-Christians with the Gospel. Most Christians on these threads attempt to convert non-Christians to Christianity by telling them they are going to fry like a fajita in the skillet of hades. They say things like “God hates those who . . . . “. If that’s the way some Christian witness to others, I'd bet it's not working very well.
M@H "

" "Fry like a fajita in a skillet". Such exquisite poetry. M@H You can speak for me now since you have come to understand my purpose. This is not an "us" versus "them" contest. It must become an "us" for "all of us" triumph. I still have faith, although the going gets rough at times, and eventhough my faith is different from yours. "

" Thank you, Mattooner at Heart. You said all that so much more diplomatically than I did.

Susan, don't you think maybe the media seek out the more sensational (and interesting)people to interview? Ken Hagee is probably a lot more interesting to them than someone like Tony Campolo, a far more moderate Christian leader. "

" The news media is covering John Hagee because he is a major supporter of Republican presidential candidate John McCain. Hagee has said that the Catholic Church is a "false cult system" and "the anti-Christ," by the way. "

" Question--Not knowing much of anything about John Hagee, my husband and I watched a Youtube clip in which he was calling for a pre-emptive strike against Iran. (I guess this aired on Bill Moyers which I regret missing.) My husband's reaction was the only difference between the fringe in our country and the Islamic jihadists is that the latter are more willing to blow themselves up for the cause.

Susan--This is what I mean. The Christian leaders who talk rationally are boring rather than sensational and don't get the press attention. They do speak out, but their words are generally published only in religious publications, such as Christianity Today and a few others. You don't get to hear what they have to say. "

" I live in Minnesota where we elected Jesse Ventura as governor so maybe I'm a bit calloused when it comes to looking at John Hagee.

John Hagee is to Christianity as Jesse Ventura was to government. 'Nuff said. "

" The Catholic church is the anti-Christ? Wow . . . he sure knows HIS Bible prophecy now doesn't he? Or maybe he's reading a different Bible than the rest of us.

The Catholic church is a "false cult system"? Yeah, and the Hageeites aren't.

Gimme a break.

"

" Vicky I do indeed think that the news media often seek out the sensational and ignore the common. BUT I am sure that if someone dared to challenge Hagee to a duel over Biblical interpretations the news media would be all over it. I'm not talking about some minister comingout and saying that we believe in love and goodness, he/she would sound like an out of place hippy. "

" Frank Schaeffer, the son of evangelical guru Francis Schaeffer, spent several years writing books promoting the Religious Right's worldview and speaking before rapturous crowds of fundamentalist Christians.
Here's what he says about them now:
— "What I slowly realized was that the religious-right leaders we were helping to gain power were not 'conservatives' at all, in the old sense of the word. They were anti-American religious revolutionaries."
— "Pat Robertson would have had a hard time finding work in any job where hearing voices is not a requirement."
— "There were three kinds of evangelical leaders: The dumb or idealistic ones who really believed. The out-and-out charlatans. And the smart ones who still believed -- sort of -- but knew that the evangelical world was ****, but who couldn't figure out any way to earn as good a living anywhere else." "

" I think the Republican political gurus understood completely the power of religion just as Marx did. The Democrats were too naive or complacent to believe that it would work. AND we have all suffered. The fanatic is willing to use and abuse anything (religion, science, political ideals, constitutions) to get what he/she wants and will sacrifice anyone who gets in the way. Remind you of any current politicians that we know? "

" From Atlanta, here's one of the ways that Christ so inspires his most devout ministers.
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Bishop Thomas W. Weeks pleaded guilty Tuesday to aggravated assault in the summertime attack on his estranged wife, national evangelist Juanita Bynum.
In Fulton County Superior Court before judge T. Jackson Bedford, Weeks admitted that he grabbed Bynum, threw her down and kicked her in the parking of the Renaissance Concourse Hotel, near Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport on Aug. 21
Weeks immediately was sentenced to three years probation, 200 hours of non-church related community service and ordered to attend anger management counseling.
"

" M@H you made an interesting point that I have been pondering about Hagee being a cult system. Jim Jones (Ghana fame) followers were poor and many were black. Hagee's followers are largely (if not all) white and middle to upper middle class. Hitler was never considered a cult leader. Yet the tools they use, mass meetings, music, flaming rhetoric, and the power they have over their members is the same. By Hagee's reasoning any group with a charasmatic leader (Pope)other than his is a cult. I wonder how he sees himself? "

" By Hagee's reasoning any group with a charasmatic leader (Pope)other than his is a cult. I wonder how he sees himself?
----
Like all cult leaders, he sees himself as the repository of absolute truth, with a carte blanche from God for any action he wants to take. "

" It would be very difficult for me to state irrevocably that Rev. Hagee is the minister of a cult. I have read some of his stuff and I’ve seen some of his DVDs and I WILL say that his teaching is highly legalistic. While that doesn’t put him in cult status, it can quickly develop a following of a certain type of personality that believes the same way. I have no idea of the demographic of his following so I’ll accept what you’ve stated – I trust you in these things.

People very quickly become – shall we say – “suspicious of outsiders” when constantly exposed to a legalistic type of preaching, teaching, writing, or whatever. It quickly becomes an “us versus them” mentality – even within the Christian faith.

Very often – and I’m being very careful here – the first people to cry “CULT!” to describe a group with a charismatic leader – to use your phrase – would certainly know one when they SAW one – if you know what I mean.

How does he see himself? I have no idea other than it’s very likely very differently than the way I see him.

Actually, I would tend to agree with Question about at least how most cult leaders see themselves. We have yet to determine whether Rev. Hagee leads a cult or not, but my experience watching cults leads me to believe that time will tell.
"

" The Question wrote on Mar 12, 2008 9:23 AM:

" From Atlanta, here's one of the ways that Christ so inspires his most devout ministers."

Where in the WORLD did you get the idea that Christ inspired this guy and how do you know he was one of his "most devout ministers"? "

" M @ H I am guessing at the demographics of his followers by the people I saw in the audience and some who were interviewed. So don't swear by my statements. When you use the term legalistic what do you mean? Strict adherence to doctrine? Stict sense of good/bad, right/wrong? Explain a bit further. "

" I never knew that Hagee was taken seriously by more than just a (relatively) few. In my opinion, he is a prime example of what's wrong with Christianity. These are a few of his words about Hurricane Katrina: "All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came."

This statement came from a man who had an affair and divorced his wife to be with his new lover. Defrocked by his own denomination, he started his own church.

Curious, I once listened to him for about 25 seconds, which was the length of time it took him to make a disparaging remark about women and feminism. Here is one of his more interesting comments about women:

"Do you know the difference between a woman with PMS and a snarling Doberman pinscher? The answer is lipstick. Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a woman with PMS? You can negotiate with a terrorist." [God's Profits: Faith, Fraud and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters, Sarah Posner]

Why anyone attends his church is a complete mystery to me. "

" Susan: There are many viewpoints on what "legalism" is or isn't and they're mainly seen as "I have strong and firm beliefs based on scripture. You, however are rigid, inflexible and legalistic." I'm sure you get it.

Generally, legalism is believing and especially judging someone on the strictest of scripture interpretation without flexibility, acting on that belief and generally condemning others for not doing the same. For example, I am divorced (and very happily remarried for 26 years, thank you). In many denominations or churches, I'm forbidden to participate in any type of governance or even teaching of any classes, assuming the pulpit, and generally becoming too involved in the church because of my divorce 28 years ago.

This is predicated on (as one of I think three passages) 1Timothy 3:12 in which it states “. . . the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife. . .”. A neo-orthodox or liberal interpretation would make it impossible for me to serve the church in any capacity because I have had more than one wife. However, the orthodox interpretation goes back to the original time when Paul wrote that letter to Timothy while Timothy was in Ephesus trying to pastor a church in a culture that was rife with – among other things – polygamy. Paul believed a man could not concentrate on his obligations to the church and the congregation, giving his duties his full attention if he was – shall we say – “distracted” by more than one wife.

Monogamy is what that passage meant when it was written. It means the same thing today because God doesn’t change and neither does scripture. If “husband of one wife” meant monogamy then, it means monogamy today. Carrying it to the extreme, not allowing anyone who has been divorced to have a position of authority in the church would be a legalistic viewpoint.

Now for my “editorial opinion” . . . Two points of interest . . . I was divorced 28 years ago, was remarried and have been married now for over 26 years TO THE SAME WOMAN! Those 26 years – from a legalistic viewpoint – have no bearing on the fact that I was divorced – even though I had not accepted Christ until AFTER I was remarried! I have been denied several positions on church boards, committees, etc. because I’m honest enough to tell someone that I have been divorced. Even though you and I would probably agree that it’s none of anyone’s darned business, I do that so nobody thinks I’m trying to hide anything.

The second point is that in quite a number of the churches that deny me the opportunity to serve in any capacity, others who are divorced (the pastor’s sons and daughters for example) are somehow exempt from that interpretation. I can’t find any scripture to understand exactly why, but lo and behold, I’ve seen it happen. I can even name names. When that happens . . . . you gotta leave the place – or at least I got outta there. I can’t tell anyone else what to do – although I would advise a hasty getaway.

Legalism can destroy churches, denominations and people because there’s no telling how the next person is going to interpret any particular part of scripture. One of these days, I’ll get fired up enough at someone who is blasting Christians and misquoting the Bible out of context and I’ll give them a little out-of-context passages myself. Then you’ll see how legalism can very quickly be taken to the ridiculous.

I hope I’ve answered your question. Thanks for asking. M@H
"

" Susan: Here’s another quick look at legalism – timely because of another thread currently running.

Tithing can be taken to legalistic extremes very quickly. Tithing is one of the principles that IS taken to the most extreme because it has to do with money. (Who knew?)

While it is true that Christians are supposed to give the tithe to their local church and the tithe DOES traditionally mean 10%, there are some people who love God, care very much for their church and pastor but simply don’t have the money to give 10% to their church if they want to eat on the last four days of the month.

A legalistic viewpoint would claim that their “robbing from God”, they’re “failing to live up to their obligations”, they’re generally a deadbeat and if you can’t give 10%, God won’t bless you because you don’t have enough faith. CAMEL-PUCKY!

With a lot of legalism comes good old-fashioned GUILT. "

" I think what annoys most of us the most is the double standard, one for me and one for the rest of you schmucks! That is also a sign of Hubris, one of my favorite words. Hubris can do no wrong, the rules that apply to others don't apply to me, with Hubris you will sacrifice your own principles to get what you want. Hubris has been the downfall of many and I suspect it will bring about Hagees downfall in time. The problem is the amount of damage/hate he can sow before that happens.Vicky I think Hagee is a closet racist, and that he uses God's divine vengence and will to justify his racism and that is part of his appeal. "

" Yes, Christians always forgive themselves instantly for the crimes they condemn so readily in others. And if the crime is too serious to ignore, then they say that those who committed it "weren't really Christians and how dare you say they were?" It's a neat little con game they have rigged up. "