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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Sunday, February 24, 2008 10:06 PM CST
LETTER: Time for Illinois to look at concealed carry

By MATT FREDERICK, Cooks Mills

In light of recent shootings, I think its time to look at how Illinois lawmakers can help prevent these crimes.

Concealed carry laws give law-abiding citizens the right to carry a firearm, out of sight. The thought behind these laws are to “level the playing field” for the good guys, as people who will do them harm are already carrying them. Currently Illinois and Wisconsin are the only two states that have no provisions for concealed carry laws.

Here are a few facts from the National Center for Policy Analysis website, at the time, 31 states had these laws, now its 48.

Major crime fell dramatically in states which have legalized the carrying of concealed handguns, according to a new study at the University of Chicago.

For the first time, researchers analyzed crime statistics for all 3,054 counties in the United States between 1977 and 1992, according to one of the authors of the unpublished study, Professor John Lott. The study found that:

-- In the 31 states that now have “concealed right to carry” laws, murders were down, on average, by 8.5 percent.

-- Rapes were down 5 percent and serious assaults by 7 percent.

According to the study, the fall in crime did not result from an increased use of guns, but from potential criminals avoiding confrontations. In fact, criminals apparently shifted to lower-risk offenses, since property crimes increased in those states. Other findings included:

-- The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.

-- The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed handgun, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.

-- If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.

In addition, the researchers found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.

One has to wonder if these shooters knew that they might have been fired back on in a mall, or that the students at these universities had a way to defend themselves, if the shootings would have even taken place?

Please take the time to consider, and support concealed carry laws, they do work, and it is your second amendment right.

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Early Bird wrote on Feb 25, 2008 6:07 AM:

" Based on some of the hostile and vicious comments I have seen on this site, I don't think I want these folks carrying a loaded weapon around. Congradulatons, Matt, for stirring this topic up again, as I'm sure the gun nuts will be crawling out of the woodwork after reading your letter, and I can only imagine what I'll be called after they read my comments. "

61938 wrote on Feb 25, 2008 7:40 AM:

" EB, How about an anti-gun nut? "

VTucker wrote on Feb 25, 2008 7:45 AM:

" One has to wonder if these shooters knew that they might have been fired back on in a mall, or that the students at these universities had a way to defend themselves, if the shootings would have even taken place?"

I haven't had a chance to look up the research on this subject, to see if concealed weapons deter crime. Still, if someone decides to start shooting with his/her concealed weapon in response to a mall/school shooting, how many additional people might be killed in the crossfire? Also, I wonder how many professors would be reassured knowing that some of their students are carrying concealed weapons.
"

The Question wrote on Feb 25, 2008 8:55 AM:

" You know how Wyatt Earp handled people who carried guns in Dodge City? He disarmed them.
Your proposal would create a society more violent and crazy than the Wild West.
"

Spartacus wrote on Feb 25, 2008 10:22 AM:

" Matt, I believe your letter was very professionally written and that it brings up good points. I do support a concealed right to carry law. I think the biggest argument against concealed carry is that it will increase crime. However, Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, Illinois, Ohio and Wisconsin are the only states that do not have some form of concealed right to carry. Even the Communist state of California offers a concealed carry law. I cannot find evidence that it will increase crime.

Also, if we handled are criminals like Wyatt Earp did and make an eye for an eye punishment the criminals would fear the penal system instead of looking at jail as a vacation then we would not have to work about needed to carry a gun to feel secure. "

pj1983 wrote on Feb 25, 2008 11:48 AM:

" vtucker, i'm sure the professors are well aware that at any given time there is probably a gun in their classroom. when i was in college (a mere 3 years ago) the professor asked (by a show of hands) how many people carried a gun/had a gun in their car/or could get their hands on a gun within 5 minutes.....half the hands in the room went up. it's already happening. people just don't want to think about it. but in my opinion, the answer to guns isn't MORE GUNS. i don't want them in my house or near me. but that's a personal choice that i've made for me and my family. i have nothing against the proper use and regulation of guns. "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 12:15 PM:

" LIMITS ON CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS
May police limit carrying concealed handguns? No

New Mexico: State law forces police to let almost anyone 25 years old or above to carry a concealed handgun in public - posing a dangerous threat to police and public safety. The state law does require that applicants for permits to carry concealed handguns go through basic safety training and a basic background check.

LICENSE OR PERMIT TO PURCHASE
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns? No

No state requirement that handgun buyers obtain a handgun license or undergo any type of safety training prior to buying a handgun.

JUVENILE SALE
Is it illegal to sell handguns to anyone under 21 years of age? No

State law does not restrict selling handguns to juveniles under the age of 21 by unlicensed sellers. Under federal law, only federally licensed dealers are prohibited from selling or delivering handguns or ammunition for handguns to any person under the age of 21.

LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION MAGAZINES
Are there limitations on large capacity ammunition magazines? No
New Mexico - There is no state law restricting the sale or possession of large capacity ammunition magazines that can fire 30, 50 or even 75 rounds without reloading.

PREEMPTION - LOCAL GUN LAWS
May municipalities enact law stronger than the state's? No

State law forbids local city or county governments from enacting any local gun laws, even though the state has failed to pass responsible state-wide laws.

LIMIT BULK PURCHASES
Is there a one-handgun-per-month limit on sales? No

No state restrictions on gun-trafficking such as a limit on the number of handguns that can be purchased at one time.

....new mexico's violent crime rate is 180% of the national average.....be careful what you wish for. "

speedracer815 wrote on Feb 25, 2008 12:39 PM:

" Those who wish to disagree with Mr. Frederick should first research the incidence of gun crimes, indeed any crimes, by those licensed to carry a concealed weapon in other states. You will find that as a group they are much more law abiding than the general population and firearm misuse by them is practically non-existant. In fact many of these same people are more highly trained and practiced with a weapon than the average law enforcement officer.

As our elected officials continue to deny citizens of our state the means to self defense, and ignore the US and Illinois constitutions they swore to uphold I believe that they bear some responsibility every time a helpless citizen is struck down by an armed criminal. "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 1:29 PM:

" "Your proposal would create a society more violent and crazy than the Wild West. "

Odd that it hasn't happened in any of the 48 other states that allow Concealed Carry.

That besides the fact that the "Wild West" had lower crime that today. "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 1:35 PM:

" Father Bob,

Cutnpasting a page from the Brady Campaign website on one state does not evidence make. I could just as easily cite Vermont which doesn't require ANY license for CCW except legal ownership and has only 1/5 the violent crime rate of the nation. "

Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 25, 2008 1:45 PM:

" We deserve concealed carry in Illinois. There are too many left wing liberals in Chicago(and apparently the papers' circulationare) that are trying to impose their agendas upon us. I encourage everyone to write their state rep and help get concealed carry for those of us who are law abiding citizens!! "

The Question wrote on Feb 25, 2008 2:55 PM:

" People have a right to defend themselves. But that doesn't change the fact that in America, guns are often just a way for small, inarticulate, impotent men to make themselves feel important.
Much of this discussion is based on adolescent fantasy, not rational thought.
And oh yes, violent crime rates are terrible without concealed carry, aren't they? Just think how many people are shot dead every day in Charleston. "

Todd Reardon wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:31 PM:

" Dear Mr. Frederick:
Thank you for bringing up the topic it should be discussed with and not just automatically tuned-out. There is evidence that state's that do have conceal and carry laws have lower or the same crime rate as the one's that do not have conceal and carry laws.

To Crazy Levi: perhaps you should have done more research on the last Govenor's race as the only candidate on the ballot last time that supported conceal and carry for Illnois was Green Party Candidate Richard Whitney. A good friend and a left leaning candidate to say the least. He had far more progressive positions on all relevant issues than Blago and Topinka, who is not a liberal nor did she support conceal and carry).

We deserve concealed carry in Illinois. There are too many Corporate Elites in both parties that are trying to impose their agendas upon us. I voters encourage to do research on all candidates and their positions on issues such as this.
"

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:35 PM:

" RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 1:35 PM:
" Father Bob,

Cutnpasting a page from the Brady Campaign website on one state does not evidence make. I could just as easily cite Vermont which doesn't require ANY license for CCW except legal ownership and has only 1/5 the violent crime rate of the nation. "

my point being our violent crime rate is 180% of the national average....and i'm sure vermont has at least registration, background check, and non sales to criminals or minors. they also have a waiting period....once again what YOU say holds no water, look at statistics "

Tim wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:35 PM:

" Want to see how bad a concealed carry state is?? Go to Indiana, they've had concealed carry for 73 years. I've spent some time in Terre Haute, Indy, Rockville, Montezuma, Lafayette, Kokomo and other spots in Indiana. I've not seen any "Wild West" scenes. Those are the same aruguments that were used 20 odd years ago when Florida passed their CCW law.

"Father Bob"--Not sure of your sources, the FBI data for 2005, the latest I can find easily shows that New Mexico ranks #37 in Violent Crime numbers. Illinois ranks #5, Wash D.C. with the most strict gun laws in the country ranks #1 in the country in violent crime. By the way, Vermont has NO gun laws beyond the federal mandates. It ranks #50 in violent crime.
Here's my source, what's yours???http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/US_States_Rate_Ranking.html "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:44 PM:

" Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 25, 2008 1:45 PM:
" I encourage everyone to write their state rep and help get concealed carry for those of us who are law abiding citizens!!"

and what about that guy behind you at the 7-eleven or the liquor store or mcdonalds? and how law abiding is he? "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:47 PM:

" Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 25, 2008 1:45 PM:
" I encourage everyone to write their state rep and help get concealed carry for those of us who are law abiding citizens!!"

and what would happen if some parent at a cheerleader competition got just a "little too irate" at the judges over a "grave injustice"....?? "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:51 PM:

" ""Tim wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:35 PM:
New Mexico ranks #37 in Violent Crime numbers.""

per capita we're at 180% of the national average. "

misterdeez wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:51 PM:

" Illinois needs concealed carry now. The officers in law enforcement, unfortunately, cannot be everywhere all the time. Did you know that Illinois and Wisconsin are the only states that currently do not have concealed carry. We all know why Illinois doesn't have it (those yuppie Chicago lefties). Lets put pressure on our legislators to make it a reality. "

Blue wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:57 PM:

" "If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided."

No wonder this is an unpublished report. I'd like to know exactly how the researches went back in time to validate their assertion that 67,000 crimes would have been prevented with the allowance of concealed hand guns. Did they interview the perpetrators? "Excuse me, had you known the woman you murdered had a handgun, would you have avoided murdering her? And, of course, if you HAD avoided murdering her, would you then have avoided murdering anyone else in her place?"

"

Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:00 PM:

" Todd: When was the last time a green party cand was elected governor anywhere? Very few and far between I'm sure.

Father Bob: Please address the issue of the numbers you are using and where they are coming from. Personally i have no issue with somebody legally carrying a firearm in public. Actually i think I would feel safer because you can be damn sure I'd be applying for a permit as well. "

Tim wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:09 PM:

" Hey Bob:
Source???????

How many cheerleader judges in Indiana, Vermont, Florida and Texas have been shot by CCW holders in the last 73 years??

Oh, you can throw in New Mexico if you like.

Here's some facts, with sources:

In Texas, citizens with CCW are 14 times LESS likely to commit a crime. "Texas Dpt of Public Safety and the US Census Bureau.

In Florida, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator as by a CCW holder. Florida Dept. of State.

IT ISN'T THE GUN, IT'S THE PERSON USING THE GUN. THE BAD GUYS ALREADY HAVE THE GUNS!!!!

"

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:26 PM:

" Sorry Father Bob, VT has no registration nor waiting periods. The follow the federal laws so like I said, If you can legally own a firearm, you can legally carry a concealed firearm.

I have looked at the statistics and laws. They show that you're wrong.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=vt "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:26 PM:

" misterdeez wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:51 PM:
" Illinois needs concealed carry now. The officers in law enforcement, unfortunately, cannot be everywhere all the time. Did you know that Illinois and Wisconsin are the only states that currently do not have concealed carry. We all know why Illinois doesn't have it (those yuppie Chicago lefties). Lets put pressure on our legislators to make it a reality. "

what a moron "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:27 PM:

" The Question opined:

"But that doesn't change the fact that in America, guns are often just a way for small, inarticulate, impotent men to make themselves feel important. "

Why are anti-gunners so fixated on genitalia? "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:34 PM:

" NM factiod. Since CC was passed in 2003, violent crimes have dropped 5%. Still want to claim causality? Can you provide evidence that it is CCW holders that are committing these crimes? "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:37 PM:

" the US census has us 37th in population at 1,874,614 and we rank 5th nationally in violent crime at 687 per 100,000 or 12,881 annually.

sorry dude.....that's the facts, you spin them any way you want to. "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:41 PM:

" IL factoids:

Illinois had a population of 12.8 million w/ a murder rate of 6.1/100K (780)

Chicago had 22.2% of the population of Illinois yet accounted for 60% of murders w/ a per capita rate of 16.4/100K

Cook County had 41.4% of the population of Illinois yet accounted for 73.6% of murders w/ a per capita rate of 10.83/100K

The Cook County murders in raw number/per capita increased 4.4% and 4.9% respectively while arrest numbers and rates dropped over 18% from '05 to '06.

If Chicago were to fall into Lake Michigan, the Illinois murder rate would drop to 3.14

Were the rest of Cook County to follow suit, the rate would drop to 2.74 "

Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:43 PM:

" Leftist Bob: I'm sure you think every child is a winner and deserves a trophy as well correct? If you don't like the idea of concealed carry maybe you should consider relocating to the socialist state to our north WI. "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:44 PM:

" Bob,

You're info's about 4 years out of date. "

The Question wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:46 PM:

" " The Question opined:
"But that doesn't change the fact that in America, guns are often just a way for small, inarticulate, impotent men to make themselves feel important. "
Why are anti-gunners so fixated on genitalia? "
-----
I believe you brought up genitalia, my friend. The primary meaning of the term "impotent" is "lacking in power," and that is the sense in which I was using it.
And for the record, I think people have a right to own guns. But to have everybody carrying hidden firearms around is an insane, childish fantasy. "

The Question wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:47 PM:

" " Leftist Bob: I'm sure you think every child is a winner and deserves a trophy as well correct."
----
Better that than a bullet to the head in Concealed-Carry Crazy Land. "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:55 PM:

" Blue wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:57 PM:No wonder this is an unpublished report. I'd like to know exactly how the researches went back in time to validate their assertion that 67,000 crimes would have been prevented with the allowance of concealed hand guns. Did they interview the perpetrators? "Excuse me, had you known the woman you murdered had a handgun, would you have avoided murdering her? And, of course, if you HAD avoided murdering her, would you then have avoided murdering anyone else in her place?"

isn't it amazing where some people get this information? are there people in the interview rooms asking victims "if you'd had a gun would you have shot him while he was raping you?" and just how do they get that same info from a murder victim? do the victims scrawl it in blood as a last act? amazing what the NRA feeds these guys. "

Dohbaugh wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:58 PM:

" As was pointed out a few weeks ago, you can make statistics say anything you want them to say. "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:58 PM:

" Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:43 PM:
" Leftist Bob: I'm sure you think every child is a winner and deserves a trophy as well correct? If you don't like the idea of concealed carry maybe you should consider relocating to the socialist state to our north WI. "

nope...my kids knew how to win and lose, as should all kids, but parents don't teach that these days (see the cheerleading article..LOL!)....thanks i am a leftist and proud of it...and i moved to new mexico ....thanks anyway. "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 5:02 PM:

" at least you guys will be glad to know the mexicans have more AK-47's and handguns than you do....thanks to our lack of gun laws. does that sink in?....probably not. "

father bob wrote on Feb 25, 2008 5:04 PM:

" RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 4:44 PM:
" Bob,

You're info's about 4 years out of date. "

oh yeah?....hmmmmm we're probably up to #2 or 3 by now....spin it how you want dude "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 5:06 PM:

" Question: I'm sure that's what you meant. Right.

"And for the record, I think people have a right to own guns. But to have everybody carrying hidden firearms around is an insane, childish fantasy. "

Who's talking about "everybody"? Can you beat that strawman some more? "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 5:07 PM:

" Father Bob bashed his head against the keyboard some more:
"" at least you guys will be glad to know the mexicans have more AK-47's and handguns than you do....thanks to our lack of gun laws. does that sink in?....probably not. "

They're buying "AK-47's in the US? Really? Care to prove that one? Being that AK-47's are restricted to Class III licenses and cost about $5000 "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 5:08 PM:

" Father Bob bashed his head against the keyboard some more:
"oh yeah?....hmmmmm we're probably up to #2 or 3 by now....spin it how you want dude "

I'm showing the historic trends. Care to prove me wrong? I'll keep waiting. "

Rotty wrote on Feb 25, 2008 5:40 PM:

" nope...my kids knew how to win and lose, as should all kids, but parents don't teach that these days (see the cheerleading article..LOL!)

~~~~

Good One! LOL! ahahahahahahaha! "

voltaire wrote on Feb 25, 2008 6:16 PM:

"
The Dems get the whitehouse for the next 4 years anyway and they both support a nationwide concealed and carry ban. So looks like you all are out of luck.

Why would anybody think that giving everyone a gun will make it better. This is not the wild west. "

Billie Brant wrote on Feb 25, 2008 6:37 PM:

" I would like to see a concealed carry law inacted. I would feel a whole lot better if I'm traveling alone to be able to reach for my loaded weapon if I'm threatened. As it stands now, if I'm in my car, I can't have it loaded in Illinois. It has to be in the glovebox or some such place and the ammo in another spot. What good is that? If I were to be in a postion to have to defend myself, by the time I got to the gun, found the ammo and loaded it, I might be dead! All those who are against this are going to point point out the recent school shootings where the weapons were obtained through legal means by some of the shooters. Yes that does happen and it's terribly sad and horrific. It bothers my greatly that these people were able to obtain these weapons when they were obviously disturbed individuals.These instances are few when compared to the number of people who own guns and never use them in a violent manner toward other people. Most of the criminal element in this country don't get their guns by legal means anyway. Most get them off the street illegally. We do not need more restrictive gun laws . We have enough already. Enforce the ones we have. Make it harder for someone with an obvious mental disease or disorder to obtain one. I don't have to worry about protecting myself in my home. I keep a loaded 12ga handy. No folks, I don't have it loaded when my grandkids are here. I doubt if they know I have any guns at all. If they did,they wouldn't know where I keep them anyway. Besides I know where they(the kids) are at all times. They don't go rummaging around in my stuff.They are watched closely while they are here. I've never had to use any of my guns except for target shooting with the exception of a varmit or two, the four legged variety. I'm glad they are there though! I don't mind going through the background checks, and I wouldn't mind going through a required saftey course if it was required either... One of the most deadly weapons we have is the automobile when driven by someone who has no business behind the wheel. The number of people killed by people driving a car every year is staggering. We need to get these folks off the streets as well as those who have no business with a gun. Don't make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to have their weapons. "

RAK wrote on Feb 25, 2008 6:45 PM:

" "Why would anybody think that giving everyone a gun will make it better. This is not the wild west. "

Once again, who is talking about giving everyone a gun?

Even w/ Hillary or Obama in office, are they the ones that make the laws? You may notice that 355 out of 535 members of congress signed a brief in opposition to the DC handgun ban in comparison to 18 in support of it. "

Copper wrote on Feb 25, 2008 8:55 PM:

" I won't get into the argument of concealed carry v. a hand gun ban and what impact on crime each have. As anyone who studies crime statistics know, the numbers can be explained many ways. Having investigated hundreds of murders in my career I am sure the predators I have arrested didn't consider whether their victim was armed or not as a deterent. Most murders are ambush type attacks. The victim, many armed thugs, didn't see the attack coming. I have collected more than a few handguns from inside a dead victim's clothes. I can only recall a few murders in which the victim was truly random and had not put themselves at risk by their activity, usually illegal.
I carry a gun almost everywhere I go, train regularly, I am former military and swat trained. My best defense is not having a gun but are my anonymity and not putting myself in dangerous situations. Just because you have a gun does not make you invincible. That being said, guns do protect innocent people. Several years ago an 87 year old woman shot a home invader trying to break into her home for the second time. The first time he beat her when he broke into her home.
Concealed carry won't stop, or probably even deter crime. If concealed carry was allowed in Illinois, I do not believe legal possessors would be "lighting" up the town. Most likely there would be little change from the way things are today. Just my thoughts "

Locke wrote on Feb 25, 2008 8:59 PM:

" Problem is, Bob, New Mexico is currently being invaded by law breakers. Included in this invasion there is an element of hardened criminals. These invaders want a better life and are not above selling drugs or armed robbery to achieve that better life. "

Cognitus wrote on Feb 25, 2008 10:43 PM:

" It makes me nervous to learn that there are so many insecure people who want to carry a concealed weapon so they can grab their gun and blast hell out of anyone who gets a little too close to them. With too many people carrying guns, untrained in law enforcement and eager for a little target practice, the following is not an impossible situation.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Bill, carrying a grudge against Allen, sees him in a restaurant in Rifle, Colorado. Noting a nearby door for escape, he shoots Allen an instantly vanishes thru the door. Cal jumps up with his gun but sees Bill has escaped. Don comes into the restaurant, sees Bill on the floor and Cal holding his gun, concludes Cal is the shooter and kills him. Edward, who had his back to the events but is eager to become a hero and prove the value of concealed carry, jumps up with his gun, assumes Don is the shooter and fires at him -- but sad to say he's so nervous and quick on the trigger he kills Grandma Frances instead.#############################
I note that the NRA is now fighting for the right of concealed carry in our national parks. I have hiked literally thousands of miles on backcountry trails in our western national parks, almost always alone, sometime spending the night out under the stars 10 miles from any road -- and NEVER ONCE have I felt the need of a weapon. But you guys can prove your manhood by shooting chipmunks. "

lefty wrote on Feb 25, 2008 11:26 PM:

" I think we do need to consider some level of weapon liberalization. "

millbilly wrote on Feb 26, 2008 1:56 AM:

" Seems like the facts can't be denied....well at least by NORMAL thinking people. You can throw facts and numbers around all day and back them up with research but there will still be idiots out there who will argue with you. Dosen't it seem strange that the other "Wild West states" have lower crime rates than Illinois ? Why don't you hear of young mothers blasting away at little league games and killing the coach because they won't let Johnny pitch, or because the umpire called there little angel out on strikes......Because in the states that have concealed carry you have to be a LAW ABIDING PERSON WITH NO CRIMINAL BACKGROUND......also I believe you have to have training to carry a gun. The bad guys in Illinois already carry guns.....why should the good guys be punished.......Think about this.....The world trade centers would still be standing if just one GOOD GUY with a gun was on each plane. AND>>>>we would not be at war.....I'm with you Matt, it's time the people of Illinois "NOT JUST CHICAGO" stand up and DEMAND the right to concealed carry. "

Early Bird wrote on Feb 26, 2008 4:49 AM:

" If the NRA had their way, machine guns and assault weapons would be in the hands of every cowboy wannabe out there. I'm with Cognitus, some of you people need to find another way to express your manhood. "

RAK wrote on Feb 26, 2008 5:25 AM:

" Cognitus:

Can you present you hypothetical situation as a real time event? Can you find examples of such things from the other 48 states that have Concealed Carry? Or can you only make up stories and throw out insults?
Copper has stated that at worst, CCW has no effect. That's been the best argument so far. Everything else has been insults and fantasies. I'll keep waiting for anyone to provide evidence that CCW holders have created "Wild West scenarios anywhere its been established. "

misterdeez wrote on Feb 26, 2008 5:26 AM:

" " misterdeez wrote on Feb 25, 2008 3:51 PM:
" Illinois needs concealed carry now. The officers in law enforcement, unfortunately, cannot be everywhere all the time. Did you know that Illinois and Wisconsin are the only states that currently do not have concealed carry. We all know why Illinois doesn't have it (those yuppie Chicago lefties). Lets put pressure on our legislators to make it a reality. "

"father bob wrote

what a moron"

Really, father bob, get a life! "

The Question wrote on Feb 26, 2008 6:24 AM:

" No, you don't get it, Copper. When those armed robbers who lurk everywhere get the drop on them, our heroes here will spin, whip out their concealed guns and shoot them dead, bang, bang, bang. Then they'll toss off a Clint Eastwood quip as they saunter away. They've done it many times before on playgrounds. "

RAK wrote on Feb 26, 2008 6:31 AM:

" BTW, CCW in National parks is a done deal. Supported by 51 Senators, it's on the Presidents desk. This is why:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0808/p03s01-ussc.html

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123679&page=1

See the difference between real events and imaginary? "

Elbert wrote on Feb 26, 2008 7:25 AM:

" I am somewhat confused by the argument being made. Since guns reduce violence why have a concealed gun law? Why not have the requirement that the gun be promimately displayed in full view. Wouldn't that deter potential criminals from harming someone as they would see that the person was armed and presumably ready to use the weapon. I would must perfer that so that I would know who was "packing" and who wasn't. And, knowing that someone was openingly carring a gun, I would, since I wouldn't want to carry one, avoid them. "

Harry Potter wrote on Feb 26, 2008 7:31 AM:

" I have long suspected that many of those yelling the loudest for unrestricted gun laws and rules are probably over compensating for some inadequacy, and all too often use guns to feel more manly. Do we really need more of these insecure types running around carrying firearms? Having said that, I will agree that those who do choose to use guns for legitimate purpose such as hunting, should get the proper training. Case in point: Dick Cheney. Perhaps if he had had more training in the use of firearms, he wouldn't have shot his friend in the face. Or was it just the alcohol? Someone should tell Cheney that alcohol and booze are a deadly combination. Look at it this way, if Cheney hadn't been a serial draft dodger, he would have gotten the training he needed about gun safety. "

The Question wrote on Feb 26, 2008 7:51 AM:

" Your point is well made, Cognitus. I ran into some gun nut on line who assured me that if he heard shots coming from the school in his neighborhood, he would strap on his body armor, grabs his guns and charge right in to save the day. It did not occur to him, of course, that what would happen is that the police would shoot him in his empty head. "

father bob wrote on Feb 26, 2008 8:45 AM:

" watch out Question.....they're shootin' at the kneecaps. i guess ignorance is bliss. "

father bob wrote on Feb 26, 2008 8:50 AM:

" Locke wrote on Feb 25, 2008 8:59 PM:
" Problem is, Bob, New Mexico is currently being invaded by law breakers. Included in this invasion there is an element of hardened criminals. These invaders want a better life and are not above selling drugs or armed robbery to achieve that better life. "

no they move north to find jobs...the problem is ANYONE can buy ANY type of weapon here without showing ID, proof of age, a background check, firearm safety courses.....nothing, nada, zip, nil...that's why we have violent crimes. "

father bob wrote on Feb 26, 2008 8:53 AM:

" and as far as the "mexican" remark, i made that to try to get thru some pretty dense redneck heads.

illegals are invisible. they don't commit crimes, they are very rarely seen anywhere but home or work. they don't wish to draw attention to themselves or their families. there are by far more illegals in illinois that new mexico. "

Rotty wrote on Feb 26, 2008 9:31 AM:

" Just a quick fyi:
Some of you posting links to check out - they are getting cut off.
Please consider using "tinyurl.com", as stated in the "log in" box above.
Thanks. "

shumphreys wrote on Feb 26, 2008 9:31 AM:

" Don't forget the latest school shooter was a law abiding citizen with no criminal background so there is no guarantee that someone like him couldn't get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I agree with Elbert, I'd rather see guns prominently displayed in a holster on the hip then concealed IF ordinary people are to be allowed to carry them. Why in the old West did many bar tenders insist that guns be checked at the door? "

Mfred_2000 wrote on Feb 26, 2008 9:41 AM:

" The Question opined:

"But that doesn't change the fact that in America, guns are often just a way for small, inarticulate, impotent men to make themselves feel important. "

--First I want to say that its sad the Journal lets people leave comments, under an alias. I wonder how many rude, uneducated comments would not be posted were people required to post under their first, and last names.

--I am also glad my letter stirred up so much debate on this topic, which is what I was hoping for, Just look, in under 24 hours, this is almost the most commented article on the journal site. Everyone is entitled to opinions, and the ability to voice them is what makes our country so great.

To "the question" yet another unidentified alias... as a matter of physical size, I would call myself a very good size man. Impotent as a term of a lacking of power... I would say I am much stronger than most, very athletic, I go to the gym almost everyday. Inarticulate? I have five years of college, am a master electrician, and currently a professional. I would put my ability to articulately debate against your arguments anytime. I am the son of a biker, and myself am covered in tattoos. In fact, once my dress shirt is removed, most wouldn't place me as a college graduate. I guess the point I am trying to make is, I can handle myself well, without a firearm, but if a guy strolls into my office, with a firearm, and I myself am unarmed in accordance with Illinois law, you can bet I am jumping out of the first window I find. As the old adage goes, why bring a knife to a gun fight?
-- I am not trying to create an illusion that all crime will end, or even that the random shootings will stop if concealed carry is passed. But, as I read countless articles on these shootings, how the innocent watched these people re-load, just to empty another clip, unanswered. I would like to think the death toll would have been less, had just one person with the proper training and a firearm been in those crowds.
--For the record, I consider myself a Democrat, strangely enough, I am mostly for the policies of my party, but sadly my party has let me down consistently on my second amendment rights, however, I still vote that way. I will also say that if one looks into John McCain, he is not exactly pro gun either.
-- I have realized a sad reality...that unfortunately most Americans are so uneducated about firearms, they have some sort of "magic" tied to them now. A stigma that they kill all who dare pick one up. At one point this country was attacked, and thank God that when it was, a majority of Americans carried and used firearms effectively to defend it. They called these men Patriots, and I shutter to think what might be the outcome, if the revolution had to be fought today.
"

shumphreys wrote on Feb 26, 2008 9:54 AM:

" All of this talk about carrying concealed or unconcealed weapons is just a way to avoid adressing the REAL issue. IF there had been folks with concealed weapons in their book bags, the NIU shooter still would have killed several students before anyone could have killed him. The disaster would not have been avoided. What can we the people do to keep people from shooting other people? That is the issue. "

Billie Brant wrote on Feb 26, 2008 11:08 AM:

" From father bob
...the problem is ANYONE can buy ANY type of weapon here without showing ID, proof of age, a background check, firearm safety courses.....nothing, nada, zip, nil...that's why we have violent crimes. "

I want to tell ya father bob, the last time I bought a gun in Illinois which was about four years ago, I DID have to show an ID, FOID card and submit to a background check before I was allowed to buy a small caliber rifle. I bought this rifle at a retail store and was not allowed to walk out of the store with it. The salesperson walked with me with the rifle in his hands until I got to my car.
You know not of all us who own weapons are going to go out and shoot up everything in sight! I'm not disputing the fact that some who shouldn't have a weapon slip through the cracks. That needs to be addressed for sure. The VT shootings might have been avoided if the powers that be had followed up on the red flags that were waving concerning the shooter.
Are you telling me that guns are the reason we have vioent crimes? Bull! The reason we have violent crimes are because criminals committ them! Yeah, some may use a gun, while others use knives, box cutters, garrottes of several kinds to strangle their victims, baseball bats, tire tools, AND Oh yes, let's not forget a criminals hands which can be a deadly weapon. How about the "mother' and I use that term lightly, that put her baby in a microwave and cooked it to death? How about the woman who ran over her husband time after time until he was dead?
Let's get rid of all knives, box cutters, baseball bats, tire tools and anything that could be used to strangle the life out of someone. Let's get rid of all the components than can be used to make a homemade bomb while we're at it. Outlaw cars. Ridiculous you say? Not really, if you want to use the "violent crime" argument.
It's the criminal that decides which weapon of choice he/she is going to use to unleash their violence on others.
The majority of legal gun owners are responsible citizens who don't go around blasting everything in sight.
By all means go after the ones who make it easy for a criminal to buy an illegal gun on the street, where most of them obtain them anyway. Go after the thugs on the street that buy them.
I would love it if another kook would never be able to get a gun, but it isn't gonna happen. If they want one, they will get one. Don't penalize or demonize the responsible citizen who owns a weapon.

Hey Mfred, be on the lookout next time you take your guitar out in public. Someone may think you have an AK47 in that case! "

father bob wrote on Feb 26, 2008 11:20 AM:

" Billie Brant wrote on Feb 26, 2008 11:08 AM:
I want to tell ya father bob, the last time I bought a gun in Illinois which was about four years ago, I DID have to show an ID, FOID card and submit to a background check before I was allowed to buy a small caliber rifle. I bought this rifle at a retail store and was not allowed to walk out of the store with it. The salesperson walked with me with the rifle in his hands until I got to my car.

that's all fine and good billie, but i wasn't talking about illinois. "

Cognitus wrote on Feb 26, 2008 12:16 PM:

" I hear the "Second Amendment Rights" phrase used often, usually in a context which suggests that any citizen should be allowed to carry any "arms" up to and perhaps including canons and nuclear weapons. ************************
Be it noted that the Second Amendment starts off, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free STATE....." The delegates to the Continental Congress were so suspicious of a standing army after their experience with the British, they decided to leave their security to the militia -- and so stated in the opening phrase of Amendment II -- and expected the members of the militia to provide their own arms. So I think it not unreasonable to expect that any person claiming the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment should validate this right by enlisting in the "militia" -- or today's equivalent.
========================================Document my scenario of sequential shooters. No, fortunately I cannot, but I think in the days of the old west it may have happened -- AND there is no reason to think such a sequence is absolutely impossible. And with a bunch of hot-headed, macho folks carrying guns and itching to use them, there is no doubt in my mind that it will happen eventually. But there is an instance which several years later (many will surely remember it) still bothers me greatly. In New Orleans a recent immigrant, I think from the Orient, who did not know English well was on his way to a Halloween party in costume. He lost his way and, PEACEFULLY AND LAW-ABIDING, knocked on the door of a home just to ask directions to the address of the party. The homeowner immediately reacted as if he were being attacked, grabbed his gun and killed the young man. At his trial for murder, the homeowner claimed that he "felt threatened" and had killed to "save his own life". There was no evidence whatsoever that the young man had even made a threatening gesture. The homowner was simply a "gunner" who resented anybody knocking at his door.
To my amazement he was found innocent.
I'll tell you, after some of the opinions I've read here, you won't find me knocking on anybody's door in town who does not know I'm coming, at least after dark. "

Billie Brant wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:37 PM:

" Ok fb :-)--- When you mentioned they were moving north I thought you meant north of New Mexico. Sorry if I misunderstood .If you were referring to New Mexico, I don't know what their requirements or lack of them are. Even so, it's still the criminal responsible for the crimes committed, not the fact that guns are available. They still have a choice of weapons. Guns are only one of them.
Illegals are invisable and don't commit crimes? Come on bob, you know better than that! I know most of them don't, but to say they don't commit crimes is stretching it a bit don't ya think? We hear and read news reports of criminal acts comitted by illegals on a regular basis. I'm not just talking of Mexican illegals. We have illegals of many nationalities in the USA. These crimes range from DUI's, rapes, murders and everything in between just as the legal citizens of our country commit.They have their criminal element as well as we do. As far as your assessment that the Mexicans have more AK47's and handguns than we do, you can bet your behind most weren't purchased legally. See ya the other site sometime bob. "

T.K. Slaughter wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:42 PM:

" Cognitus, You conveniently left off the very clear part of the 2nd Amendment "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"

father bob wrote on Feb 26, 2008 3:59 PM:

" We hear and read news reports of criminal acts comitted by illegals on a regular basis. I'm not just talking of Mexican illegals. We have illegals of many nationalities in the USA. These crimes range from DUI's, rapes, murders and everything in between just as the legal citizens of our country commit.They have their criminal element as well as we do.

that's right....and so you need strong gun laws. no one needs an assault rifle. they should be outlawed but a kid can walk into a gun show and buy one here with no ID, no parent, no FOID, no training, just cash. "

Harry Potter wrote on Feb 26, 2008 4:43 PM:

" Some one comes on here and whines about people using pseudonyms and signs his posts Mfred. Unbelievable! To borrow a term from our friend fb, what a moron. "

Billie Brant wrote on Feb 26, 2008 5:09 PM:

" Harry---Mfred did identify himself. He wrote the letter we are discussing. He wrote----"I am also glad my letter stirred up so much debate on this topic, which is what I was hoping for, Just look, in under 24 hours, this is almost the most commented article on the journal site. Everyone is entitled to opinions, and the ability to voice them is what makes our country so great."

You may know him by the nickname he goes by and used as his post name. Many of us that know him will recognize it. He did identify himself. Re-read his post. Sometimes in our haste to read all these posts we miss things. I know I've been guilty of it.
You may want to rethink your moron comment! "

rak wrote on Feb 26, 2008 6:01 PM:

" Like I said. Nothing in opposition to CCW except ad hominems, insults, and mythical "what if" situations that haven't occurred ANYWHERE CCW has been the law. You know, the other 48 states. Why? Because reality doesn't fit w/ their beliefs so they have to make things up. "

Billie Brant wrote on Feb 26, 2008 6:02 PM:

" I meant to say "you may NOT know him(Mfred)by the nickname he goes by" in my last post. I inadvertantly left out the word "not". See Harry, mistakes can be made! lol! "

Harry Potter wrote on Feb 26, 2008 6:04 PM:

" Oops! thanks Billie. "

rak wrote on Feb 26, 2008 6:35 PM:

" Father Bob:

Can you tell me what an "assault rifle" is? w/o looking it up? "

Billie Brant wrote on Feb 26, 2008 6:41 PM:

" No harm done Harry! lol! "

techman wrote on Feb 26, 2008 7:26 PM:

" Early Bird, the NRA does not support individuals owning machine guns. Automatic weaons have been banned since 1934, and there are no NRA plans to change that law.
Excellent letter Matt. After reading many of the responses to this letter, I am surprised that we allow everyone to drive cars. The government could easily start yanking driver licenses from those small inferior people who drive those large SUV's to prove their man or womanhood.
"

The Question wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:05 PM:

" Early Bird, the NRA does not support individuals owning machine guns.
-----
Why not? Is the NRA against "the right to bear arms?" What traitors! "

Cognitus wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:26 PM:

" T.K. Slaughter wrote: " Cognitus, You conveniently left off the very clear part of the 2nd Amendment "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
So I did, and you gunners always conveniently leave out the introductory phrase, which is quite explicit. Are YOU a member of the "militia"??????? Are you ready to GO when the "militia" is called on??? Sent me an email from Iraq when your militia is called on to serve their country. "

voltaire wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:29 PM:

" I'm glad to see that my tax money is paying the author of this letter, the city electrial inspector to respond to his letter during city hall work hours. Is this stance representaive of the city since it was sent during work hours? As a gun opponent I wish not my tax money to pay the salary of pro gun city employees to respond to online comments. I wonder what the city attouney's stance on this is? "

RHite wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:57 PM:

" Oh now Voltaire. Obviously you don't know how City Hall works. I go up there frequently to get permits and they are always doing something on the interweb. They have to do something during the day. Maybe they can work to change the city moto to: "Mattoon City for All Firearms". What is this city coming to? "

techman wrote on Feb 26, 2008 10:59 PM:

" Voltaire, I wonder the same thing about the emplyees of the local educational facilities that comment throughout the day.
The NRA support legitimate legislation, instant back ground checks, no firearm purchases for convicted felons or the mentally disabled.
Although I realize that I am wasting my time comenting about this. "

Early Bird wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:33 AM:

" Considering that the city attorney has posted on here during working hours, from time to time, I very much doubt that he would have any objections. It would be a great thing if the folks at city hall would focus their efforts on doing something about the shameful eyesore, known as the old Young's plant, instead or promoting gun laws (on city time) and harassing weenie roasters. I seem to recall one local company terminating several people for misuse of computers a while back. Voltaire has a good point. What is the city's policy on this? What a town! "

Early Bird wrote on Feb 27, 2008 6:56 AM:

" I would like to emend my post of 4:49 AM yesterday by adding bazookas and tanks to the NRA wish list. I too have often wondered why the gun nuts leave that part out, Cognitus. Why do you think that is? There must have been a reason our forefathers put that in the original paper. I sure the NRA has some talking points that spin it around. "

father bob wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:37 AM:

" Early Bird wrote on Feb 27, 2008 6:56 AM:
" I would like to emend my post of 4:49 AM yesterday by adding bazookas and tanks to the NRA wish list. I too have often wondered why the gun nuts leave that part out, Cognitus. Why do you think that is? There must have been a reason our forefathers put that in the original paper. I sure the NRA has some talking points that spin it around. "

i personally knew of a guy who belonged to a "gun club" and they had mortars, 50 cals, etc.....tell me why these people think they need the extreme? there's nothing wrong with owning a gun, but why automatic weapons, etc.? "

Bob Becker wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:41 AM:

" Two Points:

First, in regard to city employees posting on the Mattoon newspaper’s website. It is ridicules to think that it is not part of EVERY employee of the city of Mattoon to be concerned about what the tax paying people of their city is saying about issues in Mattoon. It is great to hear the feed back from city employees. Therefore, it MUST be in the employee’s job description to research issues in Mattoon and this website is the number one way to do that. No matter what anyone thinks, the city employees are working very hard to keep running water in your house, to keep sewers cleaned so you can flush your toilet, to keep streets cleaned, to keep you and your loved ones safe, and a multitude of other tasks that we all take for granted.

Second the only viable argument against a concealed carry law is that it will increase violence. Criminals will find any way possible to hurt, kill, steal, rape and whatever else they can conjure in their minds. Also, there is overwhelming evidence supporting the fact the states that allow concealed carry crime is lower. In fact Illinois and Wisconsin are the only two states that completely deny any type of concealed carry.
"

attainedage wrote on Feb 27, 2008 11:58 AM:

" "...but why automatic weapons, etc.?" Here's why, EB, because the federal and state governments have automatic weapons. Simple. And if you don't think they'd use them against you, think again. For now, you'd better stick with the intent of our Constitution. "

warrior wrote on Feb 27, 2008 12:35 PM:

" I say go ahead and carry a concealed weapon, if you get caught in Coles County you will only get probation. "

The Question wrote on Feb 27, 2008 1:45 PM:

" Second the only viable argument against a concealed carry law is that it will increase violence. Criminals will find any way possible to hurt, kill, steal, rape and whatever else they can conjure in their minds.
----
Some people aren't "criminals" until they get drunk or go insane, and find that they have a gun handy right on their person. "

johndoe wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:24 PM:

" Considering 48 out of 50 states have some sort of concealed carry law, it's time for Illinois to join the rest of the union. Maybe it will happen once Chicago becomes their own state and the people of Illinois are free. "

father bob wrote on Feb 27, 2008 3:08 PM:

" johndoe wrote on Feb 27, 2008 2:24 PM:
" Considering 48 out of 50 states have some sort of concealed carry law, it's time for Illinois to join the rest of the union. Maybe it will happen once Chicago becomes their own state and the people of Illinois are free. "

dude...put the wheels back on your house and head south to kentucky. "

Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 27, 2008 3:31 PM:

" Low slearner Bob: I find it quite funny that when you are questioned that you get so defensive. I'd like to know if you really knew the "guy who owned mortars" or if it was a stretch. "

father bob wrote on Feb 27, 2008 4:15 PM:

" Crazy Levi wrote on Feb 27, 2008 3:31 PM:
" Low slearner Bob: I find it quite funny that when you are questioned that you get so defensive. I'd like to know if you really knew the "guy who owned mortars" or if it was a stretch. "

i knew who he was and hadn't seen him for years, but saw a video at a mutual friend's place. they were blowing up stuff and blasting stuff. it's been about 10 years ago or so. as i recall the guy lived in georgia or florida and happened to be back visiting. anyhow, this was when i got my eyes opened to just how much someone can amass with little or no trouble.

he was like attainedage....he thought the government had them, so they should have them.....pretty dam scary. "

dohbaugh wrote on Feb 27, 2008 5:49 PM:

" This one is for the person defending a city employee blogging on the job. I have a feeling that most people would not find it part of the city's electrical inspector, or any other city employee, job description to be on a web site blogging about gun control issues. Is this really an issue that effects city government? That one one was a bit of stretch, even for a gun zealot, don't you think? "

attainedage wrote on Feb 27, 2008 6:03 PM:

" You're a riot, father bob. Waco? Ruby Ridge? Elian Gonzales? You think it can't happen in Mattoon? You're wrong. "

dohbaugh wrote on Feb 27, 2008 6:27 PM:

" Just a hunch here, but I'll bet attainedage sleeps with a loaded gun under his pillow, one in his car, one under the couch, one next to the refrigerator....you get the picture? All of you gunners need to get together and form your own militia right here in Coles county, you could even put some of the posters on here in key leadership roles, because I'm sure the government is planning on moving in any minute now. Maybe those guys will need those mortars, father bob. That might be the reason I saw Dick Cheney hanging around the old train depot the other day, pouring over a map of Coles county. "

shumphreys wrote on Feb 27, 2008 7:23 PM:

" Sometimes I wonder if people have been watching too much television, like Jericho.I for one don't want to live in a world where you are afraid to go to a shopping mall during the holidays because someone might decide to go out in a blaze of glory or be one of the innocent bystanders caught between the John Waynes, Rambos, or Terminators "taking out" the bad guy. We need to rethink our attitudes towards power,control, respect for life and self responsibility, etc.. I was struck by the number of kids after school shootings that said "the shooter won". Just what did the shooter win? 15 minutes of fame and his own early death by suicide? How many shootings will have to happen before people face the real issues here and decide to make changes? "

The Question wrote on Feb 27, 2008 7:28 PM:

" Elian Gonzales? You mean the boy who was rescued and sent home to his father after being kidnapped by the Batista-loving lunatics in Florida? "

attainedage wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:25 PM:

" lol, dohbaugh, no I don't sleep with a loaded gun under my pillow - too dangerous. BUT I do have two of them within easy reach of my bed. One for me and just in case I miss, one for my wife who's just as good a shot as I am. I don't ride around in the woods in a jeep with a flack jacket and helmet on, but I guarantee you, if a bad guy comes into my house uninvited, they'll carry him out in a bag. A couple boxes of shells is a pretty cheap security system. Try it. "

attainedage wrote on Feb 27, 2008 8:39 PM:

" Aw, Gheeze, now humphreys is an expert on gun violence as well as world religions? Give me a break. I agree with you when you say "I dont want to live in a world where you are afraid to go to a shopping mall..." But I'm betting our solutions to the problem aren't the same. My solution: concealed carry. Let me guess, your solution: more gun control. HERE'S THE DEAL: PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER!

"

shumphreys wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:43 PM:

" Attainedage Peace doesn't come through superior firepower. It never has, it never well,what you are talking about is a standoff. No one is ever at peace, they are always afraid the other guy will get something bigger and more powerful. I have no interest in banning all guns. I think hunters have a right and a need to hunt.I allow hunters on my property. I'd rather see a deer killed humanely then see it starve to death. I think that laws should be inforced. I also think that gun owners should be held liable for "collateral", unintended consequences of their gun ownership. If their gun is stolen and used in a crime they should be held liable. If they report the gun stolen then they would be released from liability. If they accidentally shoot someone they should be held liable and charged with criminal neglegence. It is all about personal responsibility. "

Bob Becker wrote on Feb 27, 2008 9:47 PM:

" dohbaugh posed the question "Is this really an issue that effects city government?"
It is indeed a an issue that effects city government. IF the state ever passes a state wide concealed carry law then each individual city will have the opportunity to pass ordinances restricting that law within the city limits. "

attainedage wrote on Feb 27, 2008 10:09 PM:

" Ms Humphreys, there are good reasons firearms are called 'peace makers' and 'equalizers'. I have no interest in banning ANY guns. Why do you want guns for hunting only? What about guns for self defense? // If someone steals your car and kills someone with it, should you be held liable if you hadn't yet reported the theft? Exactly how are you responsible for someone else's actions? If you accidently kill someone with your car, should you automatically be charged with criminal negligence? I think not. "

medic wrote on Feb 28, 2008 7:33 AM:

" Well, the chance of a school shooting happening here is becoming a real possibility. I think the government has an obligation to protect the students at any school, especially a taxpayer funded school, at ANY cost from violence and these crazed individuals that commit these horrific and chicken $hi% crimes. I am not against a concealed carry permit but it opens doors that I am not sure should be opened. I believe 100% we as Americans have the right to protect our families and property. We definately need a solution. "

shumphreys wrote on Feb 28, 2008 7:55 AM:

" To attaindage YES and we are held liable in regards to accidents that happen with our cars whether or not we are the one behind the wheel. That is why Illinois law requires minimum insurance for liability.The same should apply to gun owners as I stated. The name peacemakers was a euphemism. Ask the American Indians if they thought guns were peacemakers. You will never be at Peace if you think your gun will make you safe, in your home or on the streets. "

The Question wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:13 AM:

" Ms Humphreys, there are good reasons firearms are called 'peace makers' and 'equalizers'.
----
There's also a good reason why they are called "murder weapons." "

father bob wrote on Feb 28, 2008 10:00 AM:

" i see two types of gun owners posting here.

one type owns guns for hunting and sport.

and another who owns guns because he's afraid and fears for his own safety for some reason. "

Harry Potter wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:30 AM:

" I think I know which catagory attainedage fits into, fb. He probably keeps all those guns around to keep Colonel Saunders at bay. LOL "

Harry Potter wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:36 AM:

" And about the city electrical inspector having the time to post on this site, perhaps it's time consider making that a part time job. If they are going to keep it as a full time position, then get him off his rear and out doig his job, which is NOT using city time to post messages supporting his personal views. Mattoon continues to operate under the good old boy system, and this is a classic example of that. "

The Question wrote on Feb 28, 2008 11:40 AM:

" You just know Colonel Sanders is up to something, Harry. He has his insidious paramilitary outposts in towns all across America, ready to spring forth and extra-crispy those true American patriots if they ever drop their guard for a second. "

attainedage wrote on Feb 28, 2008 1:57 PM:

" OMG, humphreys, yeah, 'minimum insurance' is absolutely correct. It's a joke! If I remember correctly, the minimum auto liability coverage is $15,000 in Illinois. That won't cover my ‘totaled’ car and certainly not a trip to the ER with a serious injury! And, speaking of insurance coverage, better check your policy to make sure your 'underinsured' or 'uninsured' coverages match the financial exposure you can live with in the event some idiot-stick crashes into you and doesn't happen to have liability insurance. Those same folks, generally speaking, have a zero net worth, so there’s nothing to be gained by suing them. // As to the what the American Indians thought of guns, sounds like you watch too many westerns. The American Indians were armed to the teeth with 'equalizers'! They just didn't band together soon enough to defeat the white man. Their problem was there weren't enough of them, and they didn't organize soon enough. // And finally, babe, NOT HAVING A GUN isn't going to make you safe, and may in fact disrupt your own sense of PEACE one of these days. Ask the folks at NIU about that. I'd rather take my chances with being armed than being a victim. Perhaps you should stick to arguing about the Religions of the World. You fare better in that venue. "

LOKI wrote on Feb 28, 2008 2:16 PM:

" One man can change the world..........with enough ammunition! Fight crime, shoot back!....Society is safer when criminals dont know whos armed. seriously though, Any "good" concealed carry law would be so that a person HAS to take a training course and show the controll and skill neccecary to obtain a permit. it seems as though a lot of people on here think that if someone starts shooting up the mall that a bunch of people would be killed in the cross fire between him and the "good samaritan" The way I see it anyone who has any business "packing" knows that you only take the shot if it is a CLEAN CLEAR shot, only an idiot would start firing into a crowd to try and subdue a shooter. (if you shoot someone then walk away muttering something from "dirty harry" you are just as much a criminal as the one you shot. stay at the scene. NEW MEXICO has absolutely NOTHING to do with a concealed carry law in ILLINOIS, no matter what statistics, realities, fantasies, or insults you throw out. What defines MANHOOD or WOMANHOOD is not your gun, suv, truck, house, etc. Everyone sees it differently however my view is how you care for and provide for your family. Would you consider a 47 year old drug addict that beats his wife a "man"? nope. How about a law abiding 18 year old who goes to work every day and kisses his child goodnight while tucking her into bed? Absolutely. Stating that someone has a 50 cal doesnt mean they had an automatic weapon, you can buy a 50 cal muzzel loader at rural king. far from automatic. The wild west doesnt have any bearing on todays society. someone breaks into my house while im home and i will make my warning to get on the floor, if they advance, its the last time they will. If someone starts shooting at me while im driving, i wont reach for a gun, im driving my weapon, its called self defense, ..............-"Did you know that 65% of the people murdered in the last 10 years were killed by handguns?"-- Gloria
--"Would it make you feel any better little girl, if they was pushed out windows?"-- Archie Bunker "

SupportforCCW wrote on Feb 28, 2008 4:24 PM:

" Bob I think its great that you are full of useless New Mexico knowledge.

I guess what im trying to say is this comment page is like the special Olympics for you. Correct? This is where you get to shine as a star for awhile.

LICENSE OR PERMIT TO PURCHASE
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns? YES all persons born after jan. 1 1980 must take a course in gun saftey. after that YOU MUST have a F.O.I.D card (firearms owner id card)

JUVENILE SALE
Is it illegal to sell handguns to anyone under 21 years of age? YES and a MANDATORY 72 hr waiting period

PREEMPTION - LOCAL GUN LAWS
May municipalities enact law stronger than the state's? YES COOK COUNTY "

shumphreys wrote on Feb 28, 2008 4:34 PM:

" Honestly attainedage grow up. Indians got guns from the Europeans after a large percent of their population was wiped out, and alot of good it did them. But Loki is right that was then and this is now. The concept of insurance is that it is the law and you can suffer a legal penalty for not having it. The injured party may never get paid back. The same law should, in my opinion, be required of gun owners. Loki however misses one point, not all gun owners are now nor will they be even if they go through training and get licensed to carry a concealed weapon RESPONSIBLE people. AND that is the final point. If only RESPONSIBLE people could get licensed I'd feel a whole lot more better. I'm afraid attainedage wouldn't be one of those I would class as RESPONSIBLE. "

attainedage wrote on Feb 28, 2008 5:32 PM:

" Speaking of licensing, humphries, let's talk about drivers' licenses. I'm sure you would be in favor of developing a "profile test" to determine if someone is mature enough, and of the right mind, to drive. Poor driving skills and habits kill a heck of a lot more people than gun owners do. What say you? // You still don't get it with the American Indian demise. There were not enough of them and they were not sufficiently organized in time to defeat the onslaught of the newcomers. Guns, or tomahawks, bow and arrows, spears - doesn't matter. They were simply overpowered and outsmarted every step of the way. Think of it as 'evolution' - maybe that's more akin to your thinking. lol "

Locke wrote on Feb 28, 2008 5:37 PM:

" It was said: "illegals are invisible. they don't commit crimes, they are very rarely seen anywhere but home or work. they don't wish to draw attention to themselves or their families. there are by far more illegals in illinois that new mexico."

they don't commit crimes: WRONG. illegal entry into the country IS a crime -- bottom line, end of discussion.

fact: illegal alien households account for about 3.6% of the nation’s total population, but they account for 17% of the federal prison population. "

Dohbaugh wrote on Feb 28, 2008 6:04 PM:

" You fare better in that venue? Feeling pretty good about yourself, huh, big man? "

Nomad1 wrote on Feb 28, 2008 6:15 PM:

" Driving a car is a privilege.
Owning a gun is a right.
A person has a right to self defense, and the defense of others.
What's the point? A person who is able to legally own and possess a firearm should be able to carry concealed. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.
96 percent of the individual states of the U.S. understand this, Illinois and WI lawmakers are a little slow.

"

attainedage wrote on Feb 28, 2008 6:36 PM:

" Well, yes, actually I do feel pretty good about myself, Dohbaugh. And, by the way, thanks for noticing there, little guy. "

Dohbaugh wrote on Feb 28, 2008 7:12 PM:

" You're welcome.... "

shumphreys wrote on Feb 28, 2008 7:41 PM:

" Attainedage I think you should read up on American history you have watched too many John Wayne movies.Indians weren't outsmarted unless you consider starving people into submission is outsmarting them.They were outgunned. They were also too trusting, expecting treaties to be enforced. They were also wiped out by disease. If there was a profile test for drivers the roads might be a whole lot safer. But that isn't possible. Now is driving a privelege or a right? That is a good question. I am sure that many would consider it a right just like the right to own a gun.I have no problems with the right of people to own guns, or at least some guns. But just how big of an arsenal and of what caliber and capacity does a person need? It still doesn't address the problem of finding away to insure that only RESPONSIBLE people could get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. That is what the issue here is all about. "

attainedage wrote on Feb 28, 2008 8:54 PM:

" OK, sh it appears that you're one of those folks who must have the last word on everything. So, go ahead, finish this one off with one last holier than thou insulting comment and then we're done. Go ahead. Come on now, do it. You know you want to. Have it your way. Cuuuume on, one last jab. I know you can't resist. Do one about the American Indians again, or John Wayne, or how you don't care if I own guns as long as they pass your personal test. Aw, come on. Get it over with. I just can't wait to be "last worded" by you. lol, hit me with yer best shot! "

shumphreys wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:22 PM:

" Attenedage, it's obvious I already have, well not my best but a pretty darn good one! "

Voltaire wrote on Feb 28, 2008 9:29 PM:

" I agree HP, I don't really see why we need a full time electrical inspector. It seems anytime I go up for a contracting permit there is not much going on up there but a lot of sitting around or goofing off online watching videos. I always was curious about it. This just goes to show what is really going on. If it was cut back to a part time position then I wouldn't be paying some gun nut to write the paper on our taxpayer time! Too bad one person can ruin the image for the city. "

pj1983 wrote on Feb 29, 2008 8:15 AM:

" seriously? are you people saying that you NEVER do anything while you're at work that you shouldn't? never check your e-mail, or make a personal call? no one stops by to see you? (i realize that in some jobs, this isn't possible)maybe he posted while on his break. maybe he takes three ten minute breaks through the course of the day and skips lunch. you don't know. "

Mattoon Rocks wrote on Feb 29, 2008 7:08 PM:

" Looks like Voltaire has some hard feeling towards Matt. My guess is he is on of the many contractors the City has had repeated trouble with. Its sad that you take a well educated, well spoken, knowledgable man and cut him down for his job based on his beliefs. Whats wrong Voltaire, Matt cost you some money by making you do something right?
--Since we have had him, permit sales are up.
--The electricians I have talked to around town are extremly pleased with his performance, and extensive code knowledge.
--He is even willing to take the time to help do it yourselfers, going so far as to engineer small jobs for them.
--He is working hand and hand with the health department, DCFS and others to make Mattoon a better place to live.
--If you asked for it, he would give you the shirt off his back.
--He is young, he is successful, and jealousy is a stinky perfume.
Would it be so hard to imagine that he gets a couple breaks throughout the day to post or do whatever? I suppose you don't get any breaks? Wait, as much as you post on here you probably have no job whatsoever, you or Harry Potter.
If you feel so strongly about him, maybe you should head up to his office, say Hi I am the Voltaire guy and I think your not doing a very good job. No you would rather sit behind your computer, and sling mud under an alias. Its a small person that blows other mens candles out to make their own seem brighter. Keep up the good work at City hall Matt! Voltaire will be hiding behind you if the crap ever does hit the fan, I mean once rocks quit working for self defense. And knowing you, I bet you stand up for him, or help him out anyway...
You should be ashamed of ourself, be a bigger person, identify yourself and let him (and the other city employees) know your unhappy with thier performance. I bet you hide behind Voltaire instead. "

Illinibill wrote on Feb 29, 2008 7:57 PM:

" Just for once - put this on the ballot !!! Let the people vote. I say it will pass and the Blago/Daley dirty politicians can see who really has power. They would not dare let us really have a vote on something meaningful...... They must have a Tony Rezco for everything but it would still pass.

Just what percent of motor vehicles do you think are carrying right now? "

Early Bird wrote on Mar 1, 2008 6:33 AM:

" It never fails to amaze me what some folks will defend in the great Coles county area. Firetrucks being used for lunch trips, business owners attempting to bribe state inspectors, the near death beating of a Charleston woman and now city employees blogging on the job. Oh well, at least no one is defending the weenie roast inspections by the Mattoon fire department. No matter what the issue, some will find a way to rationalize or justify it. "

mattoon rocks wrote on Mar 1, 2008 5:52 PM:

" Fire the whole City! Early Bird, voltaire, and Harry Potter are ready to take command. We would be ghost town in a week. Then maybe they could turn on each other. The issue is concealed carry, but these three want to whine about the city. Hey another genlteman wrote in about cc, better jump on him too, I am sure he is posting at work, or polluting the environment, or doing something you three can jump on so you don't have to argue facts! "

Harry Potter wrote on Mar 2, 2008 9:13 AM:

" And what are the facts, mattoon rocks? Can you point out anything any of the three of us you have chosen to single out have ever said anything that would indicate a negative attitude toward 99 percent of the city workers? The majority of the folks working for the city Mattoon are good people who get up everyday and do their job. It's just people like the city employee blogging about his personal views, on gun control on city time, that we're calling out, and rightfully so. You seem to be familiar with this person, so I would challenge you to ask him if he was reprimanded over this issue, I'm betting he was. I don't recall ever seeing a post putting down city workers in general, do you? You just seem to lack the ability to debate any issues and have to come up with that sort of baloney to make you feel like your contributing to the debate. By the way, you seem more than just an interested bystander, what's your dog in this fight. Care to tell us? In closing, I would say you're kind of new to the concept of debating an issue, aren't you? "

shumphreys wrote on Mar 2, 2008 9:46 AM:

" The issue isn't about a city employee using the internet during the working hours it is about the nature of that use. Is he pursuing a personal agenda as is this case or is it a topic that ia coming up for a vote at the next city council meeting? I hope that city employees, school employees, and police officers keep up to date on the chatter happening in our communities. That is one way to stay in touch with what's "really" happening in their communities. "

speedracer815 wrote on Mar 3, 2008 12:28 PM:

" “A fear of weapons is a sign of underdeveloped sexual and emotional maturity.” – Sigmund Freud

Mind you, Freud said it, not me.

Also had to change one word in the quote that apparently is filtered here. Free speech indeed... "

shumphreys wrote on Mar 3, 2008 4:20 PM:

" Speedracer don't confuse a "healthy respect" for fear. Healthy respect of weapons and concern about the mentality of those that use them is a sign of intelligence. "

melissamharden wrote on Mar 8, 2008 12:19 PM:

" For one, I believe an opinion has more credence when signed by the author's name and not a code. In saying that; Dear "The Question", you said... "Your proposal would create a society more violent and crazy than the Wild West." How laughable. Tell your Wild West story to Habib Howard or Felicia Moss who both were staring down the barrel of a gun until they took out their own weapon and defended themselves. Here is a question for you... If you were to find your family at the mercy of an armed thug which would you rather have in your possession a loaded gun or the copy of yet another law against the right to carry?

"

Harry Potter wrote on Mar 8, 2008 6:20 PM:

" Sorry melissa, but the name or code, as you call it, have little bearing on the credence of anything posted on here. It's the message, not the name of the messenger that counts. "

The Question wrote on Mar 9, 2008 6:04 PM:

" If you were to find your family at the mercy of an armed thug which would you rather have in your possession a loaded gun or the copy of yet another law against the right to carry?
----
Great. Now I've got one for you. If you were to find your family at the mercy of an armed thug, would you rather have Superman, Batman, Spider-Man or Mighty Mouse coming crashing through the window? "

melissamharden wrote on Mar 10, 2008 9:17 AM:

" Sarcasm and the mention of fictitious characters shows immaturity. Answer the question, "The Question". If you believe in a cause so strongly then why not let everyone know your real name? If you were to be so bold, you may choose your words more carefully. "

The Question wrote on Mar 10, 2008 9:50 AM:

" I keep my identity private for reasons of my own, Melissa. And if that bothers you, so much the better. Now you can go back to your comic-book fantasies about all those armed intruders you're going to gun down, bang bang bang! "

The Question wrote on Mar 10, 2008 12:17 PM:

" I’m sorry if I haven’t treated the scenario you cite with the seriousness it deserves, Melissa. Why, just last week, 38 homes in Coles County were invaded by armed intruders. Luckily, the homeowners all had their handguns, shotguns, machine guns, hand grenades, bazookas and flamethrowers handy, and made short work of the crooks. Bang bang bang!

"