" i miss Royko, his conversations at the corner pub and his humor. "

" I too have appreciated Mike Royko. His column is quite timely. Where has religion gone wrong? "

" I asked where has religion gone wrong. That is really the wrong question we know where religion has gone wrong. One place is right here in central Illinois. The question should be what happened? What turned tools for good into tools of hate? "

" "Where has religion gone wrong?" That is an excellent question, and I hope a lot of people will address it. I think religion that goes wrong is an interplay of an individual's culture, faith, and personality, all set in a context where the religion has the power of government or society backing it up (and encouraging it). The theocratic governments in the Middle East are prime examples, along with the Christian governments of history. Not to mention the use of religion to exploit people (Indians and Africans) in America's past. I cannot agree, though, that religion has "gone wrong" here in central Illinois, at least among people I have met. I may disagree with some of them, but I have yet to see them rioting in support of their faith or killing people who disagree with them. You get some far out posts on this site, but everyone writing the worst of these does so anonymously. They are probably very agreeable people, should you meet them at the store or in town. Strong views are expressed in these forums--some fundamentalist, some mainstream, some liberal--they all make interesting reading. All have a right to be here, and I personally would miss them if they were not. "

" Royko had vision. I miss him. Religion seems to be controlling most human beings these days. I don't care which side you are on - you are wrong....at least that's what we hear today. Good to Hate - great comment SHUMPHREYSl Coonsey's View www.freewebs.com/coonsey/ "

" I don't know, what did it for you? What turned your tools for good into tools of hate? "

" To the Equalizer when hate is thrown at you it is hard not to hate back. It is also hard to understand why calling for respect for all people is considered hate. Can you explain? "

" To Vicky I think religion has gone wrong here in central Illinois for many reasons. One of which is the responders on these pages. Another is that I don't hear the local ministers speaking out to put an end to all this hate. Many columns on the religious page have fed the flames. There was the one where a minister equated evolutionists with Hitler and Stalin for example. I said earlier the war on terror will never be won until every minister and mullah, priest and rabbi, quit preaching hate and start to preach and practice a gospel based on respect for all people. AND they need to actively speak up against the hate wherever it appears. Their quietness is complicity and complicity leads to Holocausts and ethnic cleansing, Bosnia, and Iraq and Iran, and well what's next? "

" I agree with Susan that there is much that has gone wrong with religion in Central IL. Within my own family, even, debates have turned ugly and because I have had the audacity to say that I don't believe that "God hates fags" or that all gay people are destined for hell, I've been told that I am not a "real" Christian and that I, too, face the perils of hell. These are people with the very same upbringing I had, with 1 major difference: they started attending local churches and have been taught this hatred from the pulpit, in Bible study groups, etc. These are people who are elders and deacons in their churches, on the Sunday school boards, youth group leaders, and Sunday school teachers. Among their claims, in addition to the remarks about gays: women are supposed to be subservient to their husbands; women should not be given any leadership roles in church other than Sunday school or youth groups (no board membership, no deacons, elders, and certainly should not be ordained clergy); if you are not baptised you are going to hell; if you are any religion other than Christian you are going to hell -- that ALL Jews, Buddhists, and Muslims, among many others, are hell-bound; if you are Catholic you are going to hell (they claim priests cannot grant absolution, only God can, so as a result Catholicism is a false religion), and numerous other disgusting and intolerant claims. These are people who have been taught this hate in Christian, Baptist, and Lutheran churches right here in Coles Co. So Vicky, that's where I think religion has gone wrong here. It's why -- although I am a Christian and I do read the Bible -- I do not belong to a church here; I think many do more to spew forth conservative political views than they do the word of God. NONE of the churches I've attended (and I searched earnestly for an open-minded, loving church home) speak out against greed, materialism, or the general covetousness of our society; I even had one Sunday school teacher who did a whole day's lesson on why it was OK for my nieces and the other children in class to ask their parents to only by them expensive designer clothes and $8 a pair underwear (this was when they were 6 and 9 years old, too -- over 10 years ago) instead of encouraging sacrifice in order to help the poor. I think some of the zealousness of fundamentalists in our area comes so close to hatred and intolerance that it sickens open-minded people who are truly searching for God and turns them away from organized religion altogether. I know we're not to judge Christianity by the behavior of Christians, but it is hard to attend a church week after week that tramples on the core messages of scripture -- loving our neighbor, not being judgmental, looking at our own big faults instead of focusing on the lesser faults of others, treating others as we would like to be treated, etc. Even when it comes to obeying God, we focus on things that don't apply to our lives (such as commands about homosexuality) and are thus easier to follow rather than really challenge ourselves to give up the sins in our own lives. So many people who would be considered good, upstanding Christians by the standards of Christian judgment taught in our area churches are quite frankly people who anger and frighten me because of their hateful views. "

" Susan, I didn't read the column where evolutionists were equated to Hitler and Stalin, so I am not sure what the minister meant. Maybe that some have grabbed hold of Darwin's ideas and twisted them into social philosophy, such as Nietzsche w/ his idea of the "superman." Hitler twisted these ideas even further, of course. I hope that the minister was referring to something like this, and not trying to equate people who accept evolution as being similar to Hitler and Stalin. I don't think of these statements of belief or disbelief as hate statements, though. For hate, I think of Phelps, or of white supremacists, and the nonsense they come up with. On the forums here, I think of the You're going to burn in hell (for disagreeing with me) type statements. Most of the Christians who post or write in, it seems as if they're basically sharing beliefs and opinions they are passionate about. My feeling is, if they seem like they're Bible-thumping . . . well, whatever. I guess I don't see it as a threat. Is there something in particular that seems hateful or threatening to you? I don't mean in people's rudeness or nasty tone, which I don't think there is any excuse for, but in the Christian beliefs themselves? "

" That one column was pretty bad--evolutionists threaten the moral foundation of our country and should consider hitler and stalin as role models. Another column appeared that stated that your actions don't count only your acceptance of Christ--like Tammer once said the "get out of jail free card". Another column was about an answer to a question of why someone should respect others whose religion is morally wrong and evil. There have been others. Tammers message is quite a shocker isn't it? Often it is the quiet hate that is the worst, calling outright for the death of those you disagree with is blatant. It is the subtle hate that eats at school shooters and suicide bombers, that turns people away from religion altogether. It is hate when you say that because of your beliefs you are immoral, and evil. People should be judged on how they treat their fellow man not on their religious beliefs or sexual preference. The parents of the mall shooter were religious and couldn't understand what went wrong. How much subtle hate was that young man exposed to. How many times did he hear that "others" were immoral and "not as good" as his kind. When you hear those messages you begin to believe them and all life looses value. Abuse can be verbal and/or physical, subtle and/or blatant. Abusers all too often spawn more abusers. The roots of domestic violence isn't far removed from the roots of religious violence.It all stems from the basic attitudes you have towards the value and worth of others which is shown by the respect you have for them. "

" tammer65, it sounds as if you've been to more than your share of legalistic churches! Your story reminds me of some things that happened at my mother's church in West Virginia. Somehow, an ultra-fundamentalist group got involved there and took over. One of their revivalists was actually calling women who wore slacks (at home, not at church) whores and jezebels. They felt Billy Graham was a godless liberal, and prayed for the death of some other Christian leader they did not like. (No joke!) Finally, after a bitter conflict, these people left. Anyway, I can understand your reluctance to be involved in any church. I have to say that my experience here in Coles Co. has been better than yours. We've been to a number of churches here--some of them for only one visit, others for weeks or months, and one church for several years. Though we no longer attend this church, I do go to a Wednesday night women's group that meets there. It is a somewhat conservative church, but this group does not focus on church doctrine. Instead, it's more of a book study (Max Lucado and such). It tends to be very relational, and I enjoy going whenever I can. Sure, some of the women are more conservative than I am, but what we read and talk about does not concentrate on our differences, but on things we all have in common. The doctrine of this particular church is not discussed at these mtgs. I agree with you about not hearing enough about our society's problems with greed and materialism, and I would like to see more environmental awareness among those Christians who are conservative. If you are still interested in church at all, I would suggest you might try a denomination that's more moderate than the ones you mentioned. It is nice to be able to share with people on that level. "

" Susan, I appreciate your posts--they almost always give me something new to think about. I'm still pondering the first one you addressed to me, maybe I'll get to the second one tomorrow! :-) I personally don't know if it's possible for every religious leader to practice a gospel that's based on respect for all people, if what you mean by that is that everyone is believing the same thing in the same way. Because we don't all believe the same things at all. A trivial example is that I don't believe the same thing as my Catholic friends, or even as most of my other Protestant friends. I think I'm right, they think they're right. Sometimes (not often) we'll "debate" an issue. I would say we're neither totally right or wrong, but my friends may not go there. I think we can agree that we have differences and practice what we believe, even speak out about what we believe, even if we find the other's belief offensive or just plain weird--yet still respect and be tolerant of each other. As far as religious leaders around here speaking out on certain issues, I'm not sure why they do not. Maybe some of them do in their sermons. I receive a couple of religious publications that have numerous comments against the Iraq war. Whether local clergy agree or disagree, maybe they reveal that in their sermons, although they probably have to avoid being too political. "

" For Susan H, while I don't often post on the religious threads, I do enjoy reading them, and yours are the ones I enjoy the most. You bring a lot of common sense to the table. All to often things turn ugly when this topic comes up, but you somehow manage to stay level headed, while others seem to want to go all silly, and call for your head at times. I have noticed that people who use reason and logic all too often get called names and accused of saying things they didn't say by those who mainly rely on emotion. This seems to hold true for other sites as well. Anyway, thanks for the many hours of reading pleasure you have given me, and no doubt many others. PS, I put you in the same class as another poster on here, who always shows class and dignity, no matter how nasty some people want to get with her, and that is Billie Brant. You two are the absolute best, and others should try to be more like the both of you. Notice I didn't say agree with either of you, just conduct them self with class and dignity and when it's necessary to disagree, do it with some respect. "

" Come down to the Bible Belt and you'll get a huge wake-up call. Religion in Central Illinois is just fine and dandy. Down here, they once went to Sunday school by day and KKK gatherings by night. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. And to think that our current presidential administration owes its power to the Bible Belt electorate. "

" Vicky you don't have to believe what others believe in order to grant them respect. That is one of the confusions people have. As i see it those that see the world in Black and White, things are right or wrong, moral or immoral, truth or lies, put themselves into a position between that proverbial rock and a hard place. In their minds if they admit that the other person has a right to hold different beliefs they are saying that his beliefs might be right and that would mean that their beliefs are wrong. Respect just means that I recognize the common thread of our humanity that ties us together.As you said in your own post you can be different, but those differences don't mean that you should be treated differently. "

" I totally agree with Tammer. I know exactly what she is talking about. That is a shame for that county, because there are alot of churches there, but I found the same feeling when I lived in that community. Any church I chose to attend, there was a lot of hypocrisy. I wasn't looking to find the bad in the churches, it just that you could feel it yourself. "

" There is one other trait that bullies, abusers and tyrants share. That is the idea that it is my way and only my way--my religion is the only true religion, my book of scripture contains the whole truth and nothing but the truth and your book doesn't, my values are right and moral yours aren't, I'll fight this war my way, I have the right to proselytyze and not only do you not have the right you don't even have the right to challenge what I say. There are lots of bullies, abusers and tyrants in this world. People should never be afraid to stand up to them and expose them and their abuse for what it is. "

" To find hypocrisy, all one has to do is to look into a mirror and gaze at the face looking back at us. We are all guilty of it in some degree. We just don't like to admit it. "