" Excellent editorial. The "rod of correction" was never meant to be used as a weapon to beat a kid into submission. It was a metaphor for shepherds who use their rod to lead their sheep to safety, as in "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me." Lincoln was an extremely wise man, who didn't allow social convention to circumvent the common sense approach to child rearing that is innate in all of us. "

" While I never beat my kids into submission as Collitine refers to in his post, I did give them a stinging swat or two on their behinds or hands (with my hand)occasionally. A two year old who insists on reaching for something that could possibly harm them such as a hot stove, will react to a swat on the hand! A time out? Won't work! "Is this all I'm gonna get? Big deal"! they think to themselves. Nah! As most of you mothers out there know you can't be 100% everywhere at all times. Those little booger's can get away from you faster than a sprinter running the 100 meter dash in the Olympic Games! Sometimes they run into harms way, and a little swat is an exellent deterrent! I had climbers! They thought it was a game to have mom keep getting them down until mom applied a hand to their backside, and that was that! I didn't have to apply "the rod( the palm of my hand)" very often as they grew, but they knew I would if I had to. Fear? Nah! My kids didn't grow up fearing their mom was going to knock them into next week!.. We didn't put up with the hissy fits you see so often now a days in eating establishments or stores either. Nope! An attitude adjustment usually with a stern taliking to in the restroom took care of that IF they decided to act up! It didn't happen very often. I was NOT going to stand there and "bargain" or negotiate with a kid to be good. "Now darling, if you go back and eat your dinner like a good little girl, I'll buy you something." It was either go back, sit down and behave, or you won't like what I have planned! They didn't like the alternative So THEY decided to be "good little girls." Consequently, they often thought about things before they did something that would get them into trouble. Gee! Consequences to actions! What a novel idea! As they got older taking things away and MAKING IT STICK worked very well!... My grandpa used to have me cut my own switch when I was a kid. The old man knew what he was doing! I was thinking about it the whole time I was cutting the darn thing. To say I was a handful is an understatement. Not that I was mean, but "into" something that might get me hurt many times. Then of course there was my mouth!LOL! Grandpa didn't hold with "disputing his word" as he called it, so my willfullness got me into a lot of "trouble". Grandpa didn't really hurt me with that switch. Oh it stung a little and I didn't like it at all, but it did seem to slow down the time between episodes! LOL! My grandpa was a wonderful loving man who would have layed down his life for my sis and me. I hold nothing against him for the disipline he handed out. I had it coming every time! No, he didn't beat me, ever!... Anyone could ask my girls today if they think I was out of line with the swats I gave them and they would tell you no. They turned out just fine. Too often today it's the kids who are in control. They know if they throw a fit they'll get their way because mom and dad don't want to deal with it. That didn't work when I was growing up, and it didn't work with my kids, and it didn't work with their kids either! Just in case, some might ask, yes there were plenty of hugs, kisses, and praise for all the "good stuff" There was much more of that "stuff' anyway! Although when I heard "That's not fair!" after a decision was made for THEIR benefit, I would say, "Tough! You don't get a vote! This household is not a democracy! You are not old enough or wise enough yet to vote! Case closed!" LOL! I might listen to their input, but the decision was mine. That's MY job! My job was to do the best I could to see to it they were safe, prepared to stand on their own when they were grown, and to love them with everything I had! When I look at them now and the way they have turned out, I don't think I did a bad job even if I did "apply the rod" now and then. "

" to Billie -- just because time outs didn't work for you, doesn't mean they won't work for anyone. I have a very well-behaved child, now almost 12, who has never been spanked in her life. This isn't just my biased opinion of her either -- her teachers, coaches, friends' parents, other relatives, etc., have uniformly commented on what a sweet and well-behaved child she is. The key is something you state in your post -- that actions have consequences. Those consequences don't have to be physical, but they do have to be consistent and firm. (Have you ever watched the Nanny show on TV and witnessed how Jo consistently gets good behavior out of kids without hitting or yelling? It really does work; it just takes patience at first to make it work instead of resorting to the easy and quick swat on the rear.) My daughter knows I mean business just by a certain look or tone of voice; I don't have to bribe her or buy her off to get good behavior from her, nor do I have to spank her or yell at her or use an ugly tone of voice as if she were a bad dog or something. If physical punishment works so well, why did your daughters ever climb something a second time, or run away a second time? I think we use the discipline method that we learned as children, and fortunately, I was also a well-behaved, respectful child who was never spanked in my life, either. "

" Tammer65, It's great if you can use the methods you used and they work. I'm not against that at all. If it works well for you that's great! All too often though kids these days who are very smart by the way, will know how to manipulate mom and dad and use the "abuse word" to control THEM!.. I was raised in a different era where spanking(not beating a kid) was the norm. Yes, there were kids who were abused, just as there are today. I don't go for that at all. BUT, I don't believe a well placed "swat" with the palm of my hand is going to qualify as abuse... I can tell you this, the behavior of kids in general seemed to be better back then, and when my kids were young. Our teachers didn't have to worry about students using the "f" word in class. or being called an s.o.b or the "b" word either and "you can't do a damned thing about it either teacher" attitude. Even some little kids talk like that now. If one of mine had talked like that in school to a teacher, or had I when I was in school, a bar of IVORY soap would have been inserted in the disrespectful mouth of the offender! Can't do that today! Nope! If DCFS finds out, goodbye kids!.. Teacher's had control in the classrooms and the administration backed them up. Now, if you disipline an unruly kid, you, the teacher may get sued! Of course the teacher's back then didn't plaster themselves nude all over the internet either. It was unheard of to hear of a female teacher having an affair with a student. Most of the teacher's who do this are young, and don't seem as if they were raised with any disipline or restrictions either. Male teacher's once in awhile were caught doing this.... Students as young as 11 and 12 having sex on the floor of the classroom while the other kids watch if the teacher stepped out for a few minutes was unheard of for Pete's sake! School shootings were almost unheard of. Now, it seems as if there's one almost like the "flavor of the week". Oh there was the occasional fist fight, and the students were punished for it. You didn't badmouth Mr. Smith, the principal of CHS if you got caught doing it . You took his tongue lashing and and any disipline he dealt out! Period! He was a fair man, but he could be tough when needed. You know afer all the years those of us who knew him in school way back then, I haven't heard any unkind words toward him, even from the ones he had to be tough with! .. There weren't any video tapes of kids ganging up on kids and plastering all over youtube like a badge of honor. Mother's didn't get on a school bus and knock the crap out of a kid who "may have" insulted her kid and the bus driver stands back and does nothing! I was always told if I got spanking in school, I had better be prepared to get another one at home! I never got one at school. Fear you say? You bet and it worked too! Am I permantly scarred over it? I don't think so!!! I don't know where you got the idea my girls ran away. I didn't say anything like that. But now that you mention it, they, like so many kids when they get angry threatened to do so. I just told them I'd help them pack! That was the end of that! If a parent even threatens to swat a kid today, some of them hold mom and dad hostage by threatening to call DCFS! Wonderful! Just so you know, mine got the idea with a word or a tone of voice that mom was getting down to her last nerve and it was time to back off! Lol! We laugh about that now! I very seldom had to resort to "swatting", but I sure wasn't afraid to if I felt it was neccessary and I sure was not going to be intimidated by a kid! My kids weren't afraid of me. They knew I would never hurt them. They knew I would never have to take them to the ER because of the "swats" they got... I HAVE seen many well behaved kids out and about. What methods their parents use to disipline them, I don't know. Some may use yours tammer, some may use the "old fashioned ones" like I did. I do however get a little tired of the government telling us how to raise our kids. Child abuse? I think it's awful! I don't believe I abused mine, and they don't either. An occasional swat on the behind doesn't qualify as abuse in my book. "

" billie -- I didn't mean "run away" as in "run away from home" but that they ran from you, which I assumed when you said "the little buggers are hard to catch and run like Olympians." It's been my experience that some of the children with the worst behavior are the ones whose parents use spankings and yelling as discipline methods. I think when you hit a child, the main lesson they learn is that if you're bigger than someone else and they do something you don't like, you can attempt to control their behavior by inflicting pain. The social problems you mention are far too complex to trace to a single cause, like the schools stopping the use of corporal punishment. Discipline and spanking aren't synonyms, after all, and it's quite possible and maybe healthier to teach respect without making things physical. I think some of the biggest factors in the school violence issues you mention are the lack of time parents spend with their children and the soullessness of our society -- we talk big when it comes to church, but way too many Americans worship money and possessions than they do God, and that includes a whole lot of church-goers. I also think there's a tendency to glorify the "good ol' days" as we get older. Society wasn't exactly utopia back in the 50's and early 60's, either -- we had sickening racism, sexism, and other ills that were just as bad as school violence and disrespectful, undisciplined kids. "

" tammer, Yup we did have bad stuff back in the good old days too. I never meant to imply we didn't, but I feel the blatant disrespect shown by many kids and young adults was not as prevalent as it is today. It wasn't tolerated as much as it is now.... As far as my kids ' "running like Olympians", I didn't mean they were running from me. I meant in the normal course of play, kids run and sometimes reach for things that could hurt them or do something to put them in harms way.They think it's a game sometimes to run, and they are hard to catch! The little booger's ARE fast! They can snatch a glass or other object off of a table faster than you can bat an eye! I never had a kid run from me because they were afraid of me. I guess I didn't explain very well when I said they could run faster than an Olympic sprinter. They are quick ya know! LOL! I would rather smack their little fingers and have it sting for a moment or two than have then keep on trying to touch that hot stove and perhaps get burned. You can't always reason with a little one. They don't know what hot means! I wasn't willing to let them find out! They knew what that little smack on the hand felt like, and they didn't like it... Perhaps in your experience the ones who have been yelled at and/or spanked have the worst behavior problems, but I could show you plenty of behaior problems on the flip side too where they haven't been. You make some very good points about the lack of quality family time and the lack of soulfullness in today's society. I agree with you. I also agree that we can't trace all the problems to discipline or the lack of it. You're right. It is a complex problem that doesn't seem to have a consenus on how to fix it. Please understand that I am not an abuser of children. I spanked infrequently, and my kids have not been scarred for life because of it. They are happy, well adjusted young women who have done very well with their lives. I feel no guilt for the few times I did have to swat. I didn't like it, but felt it was neccessary at times to teach the kids there are consequences for behavior that was unacceptable OR dangerous when other methods produced no results. "Do it again and you know what's gonna happen" seemed to work for us on those occasions. As I said I didn't have to do it very often. The kids, looking back on those times, laugh about them now! "Wow! Do you remember the time..... Boy! Did we get it!" No, tammer. my kids didn't suffer any damage because I placed the palm of my hand on their posterior's when they pulled a stunt or two because they thought they could get away with it. Kids are kids, and they are gonna try it once in awhile. My daughters are now my friends as well as my daughter's. I was not their friend when they were little. I was their mother! That doesn't mean I wasn't friendly with them or didn't show them I loved them . Not at all! It just means I held myself to a different level because I felt it was more important to be a parent. They knew they could always count on me. They knew I would never turn them away, no matter what! They still know that today. They had friends, many of them. They only had one mom and I had to be more than a friend. The lines can get blurred very easily if you try to be all things to a kid, and forget you are first and foremost a parent. A friend may not be your friend all of your life, but your parents are forever. Did I make mistakes? You bet I did! Being a parent is the toughest and most rewarding job there is, isn't it? You sound like a good mom tammer. Your kids are lucky to have you. "

" Spanking should be the last thing used when disciplining a child. I will agree with this, however with some kids a little whack on the rear might be needed. If times outs etc work for you, great, but that doesn't seem to be effective with all kids. Assuming that because it worked for you therefore it will also work for others, is incorrect. Beating on kids and screaming at them is about the poorest action a parent can do. I see parents yelling and screaming at their kids and making all kinds of threats, and then never following through with them. Consistency, fairness and follow through with punishment is, in my opinion, the best course of action. "

" Billie - We initially spanked our highly-defiant strong-willed daughter, and I was so wracked with guilt - especially after she flinched when I reached for her and after I saw her beating a doll, that we vowed never to raise our hand against her again. (Smacking a hand in a panic to prevent pain is another thing altogether). We used time outs - even forcibly holding her, and "sassy medicine" (vineger in a med dropper) and swiftly taking things she wants away during acts of rebellion. Our methods are so effective, that now, when I count to three, she's instantly compliant by "two" unless she's testing us - which results in hysterical tears from her as a result of painless but effective punishment. Am I saying those methods will work for you or anyone else? Nope. But I am saying in our household, a 30 year old man or woman striking a 3 year old girl sent confusing signals to all of us. Also, you overstake grossly the power children and DCFS have over parents. DCFS protects children from abusive situations, and those workers understand the difference between stern discipline and a child being beaten so badly, there are bruises on their frail bodies. Washing a mouth out with soap? Please. Most DCFS workers would help the parents do that. ---Tammer- I tend to agree with you. One other thought came to me when I read your comments... In America, we believe that since we spend more money on our military than every other nation in the world combined, well, by golly, we're gonna use that power to force our will whenever someone doesn't tow the line we want them to tow. Kinda wonder how many Congressmen, Presidents, and Pentagon officials were spanked when they were little... "

" Don't make me stop this car!! ----- I can remember when dad caught me smoking (that was before child abuse was illegal), I don't imagine that a time out would have stopped me, but his belt did. Every time I look at a pack of Cigarettes I think of a belt. All 4 of us were (spanked) but not abused, we also had a willow tree at one time (glad we moved from there.) The point is, spanking out of love, and the fear the child will hurt themselves is not child abuse. "

" I knew it wouldn't be long until politics and the war got involved in a 'spank or don't spank' column. Discipline, true biblical discipline, is done out of love. It can be spanking, time out, grounding, being made to write several sentences, or anything else that the discipline would require. Discipline doesn't involve hate or anger. It is meant to change an attitude or action. Do some people get carried away? Ofcourse. If done correctly, spanking will work. You have to do it with love before, during, and after. "

" Hey guys, I didn't say DCFS would have a fit if I washed a mouth out with soap. I said that if my kids or I had used the kind of language some use to teacher's etc, it would have been used. I sure as heck wouldn't have worried about it... Hey medic, we didn't have a willow tree but we had a peach tree, and those switches smart too! LOL! Good points Dohbaugh! I used spanking as a last resort also. I have to admit I did my share of yelling when I was angry, but I didn't resort to calling the kids bad names other than "you little stinker" or maybe something a tad stronger at times. They knew what I meant! I never told them they were stupid, bad, "no good" or things like that. I know what they were thinking, "Mom'll cool off in a minute.".... When I look back, it's wonder we survived being spanked with our pysche's intact if you listen to all the experts out there today telling us we did it all wrong. Common sense and love, is still the best ticket! Good post sixshooter! I think most of us try and do what you wrote in your post. Mistakes? Yup, they're gonna happen. Just try and do better. At the end of the day, when your grown kids still tell you they love you, and they were glad you "lowered the boom" on them when they needed it, makes me feel pretty good. I did my way and it worked for us. "

" I had a kid ask me awhile back if I had ever heard of AER, I said no, he said it was an Alternate Education Room for when they acted up in Jr. High, I said we didn't have that, he wanted to know what we had, I said, we had Elmer Smith, and he had a 1/2 inch thick wooden paddle and a very strong swing. So you see, we didn't need an AER and there was no time out, you just couldn'r sit for about an hour. "

" I'm not so sure that those who were spanked as children ended up with their "psyches intact" as some posters would suggest, and just because one's grown children say "I'm glad you lowered the boom on me" doesn't mean it was right. There are women and children who will stand right next to a police officer trying to help them escape abuse and defend their abuser. (I'm not saying that you were abusive because you spanked your kids, Billie, but that there ARE children who were abused who will stand right there and deny that anything bad is happening." I DO feel like we as a society bear lingering effects of spanking and other physical punishment, though -- the message that it sends that if you're big enough, you will inflict pain on someone smaller when they do something wrong can be seen in the epidemic of spousal abuse and domestic violence in our country (or even in the more subtle ways that men treat their wives and girlfriends as inferior to them), in attrocious behavior towards children, in a man who thinks it's perfectly okay to use his fists to settle a disagreement with another man, and yes, maybe even in our country's "might makes right" foreign affairs policies that have made us hated around the globe. I'm not sure how a grown man hitting a small child with a belt, switch, or other weapon can be done with love. It sounds to me like a wife beater who will vow to the death that he loves his wife but struck her "for her own good." I think the reason so many people still insist on spanking is because it feels good to them at the moment because it brings immediate results (the bad behavior stops) and because it defuses the anger at their children for defying them. And their children grow up to use that same method because it's what they know. Since it worked on them, it must be the way to go. Many don't give non-physical punishment a real chance, or don't know how to properly implement it because they didn't see it modeled or weren't taught how to do so, so they automatically assume there's something wrong with the method, when it may just be that the way they try to implement it is flawed. I find Collatine's story to be a very powerful one -- I wish more people would see the disturbing side of a big, strong adult who towers over a small child reaching down to a child to hit him or her. "

" Well I was never spanked as a child, I was warned that if dad got his belt off I would be. I was an only child, and as I have been told, I was a hellion! My grandma used to get after us with a wooden spoon when we wouldnt behave and for an old lady she was fast! I dont believe that my children think hitting is the only way to stop an argument just because I have smacked their backsides. I have taught them that violence is not the answer. I dont think swatting a childs backside is the same as punching someone in the face when you dont agree with them. I have 2 children 1 boy and 1 girl and they cannot get along for anything but they have never resorted to hitting each other so I think I did ok. And taking toys away, thats another thing, you have to really be ready for that one because kids these days have so many that they are not gonna notice if you just take the flavor of the week away they will find something else. I remember back when my daughter was 7 I think she would not clean her room and her dad said he was going to throw away all her toys if she didnt. Well she never cleaned it and there he went into that room with garbage bags and bagged them all up and set them in the garage. She was amazed that he would actually do it but guess what she has always cleaned her room since! "

" Yeah tammer, I lost my temper more than once. I yelled at them more than once or twice. I sent them to their rooms which was a BIG mistake as far as my older one was concerned! She had her books! Once I realized that being sent to her room with her books was no punishment I made her scrub the kitchen floor with a toothbrush next time she had it coming! Oh Boy! Am I gonna get it for that! That's way too much for a 12 year old! I can hear it now! Slave labor! Psychological punishment! Scarred them for life! I spanked my kids on occasion. When they got a little older and understood that the consequences were going to more than a swat or two on their behinds or their hands, I used other methods. Teenager's are a different "breed" altogether! You think you get frustrated when they're little? Wait until they are teeager's! When they are little sometimes they don't understand the possible harmful behavior such as touching things that might harm them or running into the street. They DO know that they don't like that swat, so they are apt to remember it the next time they try it.I'm not gonna apoligize for it! There's NO WAY I'm gonna believe that most people who got spanked(not beaten) have been "damaged for life" Geesh! Get a grip! Oh Yeah tammer, it made me feel good to spank my kids! I got off on it! It made me feel superior! I really got a rush when I made them take a bite out of a bar of soap too! What a horrible mom I was! I DIDN'T LIKE IT AT ALL, but I felt it was neccessary on those occasions. Now I guess those that spanked and continued the practice with their kids are to blame for the "I'm bigger than you BS so I can do anything I want to" as far as the world situation is concerned. PLAZEEEZE! That's a little far out there don't 'cha think?.Sometimes I think we're being psychoanalyized ad'nauseum by experts on every level. There's not a day that goes by that another expert" doesn't get on TV to "hawk" a new book telling us how wrong we are and how we can change our behavior! How did we ever manage before! A little common sense perhaps?. I'm not against counseling, but for EVERYTHING that comes down the pike?.. Let me tell you something tammer, I WAS ABUSED by my EX! I had hair pulled out of my head, black eyes, bruises, the whole nine yards. I fought back and got my licks in, and as physically strong as I was, I was still no match for him. I finally divorced the S.O.B. when he went to work out of the country! Thank God, they got a good dad when I married Toby! I KNOW the difference between a swat on the rear end to help protect a kid from doing something AGAIN that might harm them, or as a form of punishment for defiance, and knocking the crap out of them as I got from their father! NO WAY would I inflict that kind of hurt on my kids!... I heard that big BUT in your post "and just because one's grown children say "I'm glad you lowered the boom on me" doesn't mean it was right. There are women and children who will stand right next to a police officer trying to help them escape abuse and defend their abuser. (I'm not saying that you were abusive because you spanked your kids, Billie,"..."BUT".It came through loud and clear!... If you want to use a different method, fine, but don't sit back and judge every parent who has EVER spanked their kid as being an abusive parent. You can sugar coat it any way you want to, but that's exactly what you're saying. You can uses all the "but's" you want, but it still comes through... I raised daughter's who would defend me to the death, daughter's who got their butts spanked. Those same daughter's who are grown now, had no reason to cower in fear from me way back then. If asked they would have told a cop I didn't beat them because it would be the TRUTH!... Also, I've known kids whose parents NEVER laid a hand on them, but abused them with words, humiliation, and psychological abuse. This kind of parenting will have a longer lasting effect than an occasional swat on the butt! "

" A good spanking never hurt any kids. If you love your kids you will spank them. The problem with parents today is they refuse to train their children properly. I'm tired of your spoiled brats. "

" A short discussion to attach the improper action, whether deed or mouth, to the impending punishment. Minimum force WITHOUT anger or hate, done for the purpose of correction in developing a proper attitude and behavior for life. Consistency and Follow-thru are essential. When the child, challenges the severity of the punishment, or the punishment no longer has the required affect, upgrade the force level. --------------- Please (Grand)parents....when you have a child throwing a hissy fit, especially at the top of their lungs, take them to the car until they cool off. It is rude to all the other customers to listen to your lack of control, the ear piercing screams, and the duration that gets on our nerves. "

" amomof2: if all parents who love their children by spanking are as hateful as you are, then I have no desire to be like them. At least Billie has made some valid points and has managed to disagree in a civil way that tolerates the idea that other people might do things differently than she does. On other threads on this website you claim to be a Christian but have spewed some of the most hateful rhetoric I've ever seen, such as you long for the damnation of others. My child is far, far from a brat. I'm sorry you're such a blind person. "

" Yes I hear these well behaved, never spanked little darlings,every time I go to Wal-mart. I read about these Dr.Spock raised children in the paper. Beating their elderly parents up,because the won't mortgage their house and give them the money. The parents tell the police we don't why he did this,we never spanked him ? If you go out in the road again little Johnny I'll put you in time out,again. "

" Excuse me, 1 cav, but you haven't heard my child acting up at Wal-mart. I am very proud to say that she has never thrown a "hissy fit" in public, and I didn't have to spank her to raise such an obedient child. She's almost 12 now, but this was true of her even in her "terrible two's," which never really hit that hard. Just by giving her positive attention and lots of love, along with correction/instruction/non-physical discipline when needed, I managed to raise a well-behaved child. I understand that some parents spank without turning abusive, but please don't dismiss all of the parents who have chosen not to use physical punishment as having a bunch of whiney, spoiled, ill-behaved brats. It may be true of some, but I've also seen my share of bratty behavior from parents who yank their children by the arm with enough force to nearly pull it from the socket, while threatening "just wait till we get to the car!" I don't think time-out is what they have in mind for their little angels. "

" Good on you tammer! You have been fortuante you did't have a headstrong "you can't make me " type child. Some kids are just more mild mannered than others and don't require a stronger type of disipline. Each child is different, so the methods of disipline may differ. I've yet to find a "one size fits all" approach to raising kids. Common sense and a desire to raise a child with his sense of self worth intact and repect for others should be the goal of every parent. There are many of us who try to do just that and many of us who have been successful. Parenting, is the toughest, but most rewarding job there is. If we're lucky, later on we have grandkids( I have six, and two great-grandkids with another one due soon) and tell THEIR parents,"See, I told you. What goes around, comes around! You've got kids just like you were! Have fun making them "mind" Ha Ha!" LOL! I hope to see more! I'm only 65, so I should be around to watch the fun awhile longer! "

" Happymom, look what you accomplished -- without spanking! Your 7 year old cleaned her room and has not failed to keep it clean since all her toys were bagged up and taken to the garage. You've shown us that non-physical discipline CAN work. The key with whatever kind of discipline parents use is that there is follow-through -- parents do what they say they will do, even if it's unpleasant. Parents have to be consistent, so that children learn there are unpleasant consequences for their actions, not just endless, empty threats of "don't do that" or "I'm counting to three. . . . Okay, 2 1/2, 2 3/4 . . . ." No one likes to hear that kind of annoying dialogue between parent and child. Happymom, I'm guessing you and your husband heard a lot of complaining, maybe even some tears, and promises of "I'll clean my room, but please don't take my toys away" and yet you still followed through and took them away despite the unpleasantness. That's why your punishment worked. Children do need to learn that there are consequences for their actions. I've never suggested, in any of my posts, that children should be allowed to whine, throw fits, or misbehave in any way. I just don't believe, though, that a parent has to resort to spanking to bring about those desired results of a well-behaved, respectful child. And for all those who seem to attach miracle status to the backside swats, I've seen plenty of those ill-behaved monster children who do get spanked, sometimes even right there in the store. All I've seen that accomplish is to make the scene even louder and uglier. "

" Billie, I didn't say mine wasn't headstrong -- she has our family's stubborn streak that seems to grow exponentially with each generation! I just found methods of dealing with it without spanking her. She's learned to develop a cool-down button and self-control early in life. I hope I've helped her with that process. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all method for raising children, either -- that's why there are so many tools a parent can use in applying discipline. Those tools just don't HAVE to be physical ones, or emotionally cruel ones. Your earlier post about having a mouthy 12-year-old scrub the kitchen floor with a toothbrush seemed like a perfectly good idea to me! Just because it's not a spanking, doesn't mean that the punishment has to be light or fun! Enjoy those kids, grandkids, and great grandkids! I think the lesson Harry Reynolds was trying to teach us all with his Lincoln example is what a blessing children are in our lives! "

" A sincere 'Thank you' to Tammer for not being one of those lazy and/or inconsiderate parents. I enjoy the relative silence your child brings to Wal-Mart vs the irritant brats. "

" Tammer, I do enjoy those grandkids. I'm looking forward to celebrating my great-granddaughter's first birthday this week. The new one will be here in about a month. Great job with your daughter. As far as spanking, I didn't have to do it often, only when I felt it was neccessary, and that included the grandkids too. It's been a long time since I've had to apply my hand to a backside! I sometimes think Mother Nature has a weird sense of humor. She gives us the energy to deal with small children, but sometimes not enough patience. The reverse is true when we get older! LOL! Toby and I had the pleasure of taking care of our granddaughter while her mom worked. Both of us were here all the time with her. I can't recall a time where we had to give her a swat. She was an easy going good natured kid who just didn't require much disipline. Just a few words from her beloved Paw Paw was enough to "break her poor little heart" when she did something she shouldn't have and that was that. We were both older when she came along and she was a delight to have in our home. She still is and she's 19 now. I just wish her Paw Paw was still here to see what a fine young lady she's become. Not all kids are as easy to "handle" as she was, so methods have to be adjusted. Like your little girl, I could take her anywhere and not have to worry about hissy fits. You are right, about kids being a blessing. Mine have been, even when I felt I had to resort to a swat or two. I can't imagine my life without them. "

" There have been a lot of good points made on this thread, I stand in the middle on this issue. My daughter got swats on the butt until about the age of 5, at this point we decided she was old enough to understand verbal reasoning and that spanking past this age is done for humiliation purposes and nobody needs that. Yes I was spanked and I know that I am not psychologically scarred. I too have been guilty of seeing a child throwing a tantrum in public and thinking "somebody take that kid outside for a spanking". Then something happened that will keep me from ever thinking that again. My son has autism. Now I know that most out of control kids don't, but the point is how do you know which ones do? Unless you have been there nobody knows how it feels to not only be unable to calm your child, but also feel EVERYBODY staring at you thinking "just spank that kid"! So next time you see a child out of control why not offer help instead of judgement? "

" Shelly, good point, when my son was about 2, we were having dinner at Mountain Jacks in Champaign and he was just throwing a fit, we were getting ready to leave when the manager said, let me take him and show him around the back and meet the cooks and such, she was back in 5 minutes and Kris was quiet as a mouse for the rest of the night. Of course, we didn't find out for 3 more years that he was Hearing impaired, learning disabled and had Cerebral Palsy. You never know. "

" Shelly Kay wrote, "I too have been guilty of seeing a child throwing a tantrum in public and thinking 'somebody take that kid outside for a spanking'." -------maybe that should read 'Unless that kid has a legitimate problem*, somebody take that kid outside for a spanking.' *CP, Autism, etc.(Does not include being a brat, or just throwing a hissy fit.) "

" My point was that there's not really any way to tell if the child has a legitimate problem. Unless they are wearing a shirt or pin that makes it obvious it's not easy to tell the difference. "