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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

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Friday, October 5, 2007 12:31 AM CDT
LETTER: Why are trigger-happy thugs being hired?

By D. FERREL ATKINS, formerly of Charleston

Associated Press reports that an Iraqi video shows Blackwater guards opening fire against civilians in Nisoor Square in western Baghdad without provocation, resulting in the death of a number of Iraqi civilians. However it appears a U.S. directive, issued in 2004 by occupation authorities exempting contractors from prosecution, will prevent the Iraqi courts from acting.

Does it not seem ironic that the Bush administration, while claiming success in building “democracy” in Iraq, simultaneously limits the power of the Iraqi judicial system?

In view of the fact that the Iraq government now has six alleged cases against Blackwater employees, why is the Bush administration hiring such trigger-happy thugs? Is this a tacit admission that the Iraq war has so decimated our military that they can no longer be trusted to provide adequate security for Iraqi and visiting US officials?

D. FERREL ATKINS

formerly of Charleston

Estes Park, Colo.

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Tom Andres wrote on Oct 5, 2007 11:00 AM:

" My dad used to tell me "You're known by the company you keep." Look around you, Mr Atkins. Kerry, Durbin, Murtha, Fonda, .... You get the idea. "

father bob wrote on Oct 5, 2007 4:11 PM:

" he needs them to do his dirty work so he can stay squeaky clean in matters such as torture and extortion....but as it turns out it's all catching up to him. he'll be impeached and tried for treason. "

father bob wrote on Oct 5, 2007 4:26 PM:

" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has ordered that State Department convoys will now include a member of the Diplomatic Security Service whose job essentially will be to protect the Iraqi people from the Blackwater guards who protect State Department officials from the Iraqis..................what a cluster ****, only from this whitehouse...geeeezzz "

ItsJustDave wrote on Oct 5, 2007 7:59 PM:

" Oh my lord... SIX cases in four years of security personnel firing on civilians. Jeez, there were more than that by the Chicago Police in that time, and they weren't being attacked on a daily basis by Jihadists. SIX HUNDRED, and I'd be a bit concerned. SIX THOUSAND, and I might be outraged. "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 5, 2007 10:49 PM:

" I love it Dave! You always manage to put things in perspective! Good point! "

Chad(USAF) wrote on Oct 5, 2007 11:31 PM:

" True Dave, but we can't blame President Bush for the Chicago police incidents... or can we? I'm sure Harry Reid is working on that one next. "

The Question wrote on Oct 6, 2007 9:09 AM:

" You Republican scum do realize that you are supporting murderous, mercenary storm troopers, don't you? Yes, I think you do. In fact, you like the idea, because you're fascists at heart. "

The Question wrote on Oct 6, 2007 9:47 AM:

" So I take it you Republicans don’t think mere U.S. troops are good enough to provide security for the State Department in Iraq, eh? Instead, you think overpaid, no-bid, brutal mercenaries like Blackwater should do the job. What a shocking display of your lack of faith in U.S. troops — those same troops whose feet you always demand everyone else kiss. "

The Question wrote on Oct 6, 2007 9:50 AM:

" By the way, Andres, it's good to know that your dad was given to spouting tired, empty-headed cliches. It helps us understand where your simple-minded, warmongering conformism springs from. "

The Question wrote on Oct 6, 2007 9:59 AM:

" A Blackwater employee who shot a guard of the Iraqi Vice President, apparently while drunk, was flown out of the Iraq within two days of the incident before a proper investigation could be conducted. Comgressional committee Chairman Henry Waxman has revealed that this Blackwater contractor, who was fired at the time, was hired by another private contractor to work in the region two months later. "

harry wrote on Oct 6, 2007 3:53 PM:

" These trigger-happy thugs are merely employees of a multi-million dollar company being paid for their services by the U.S. Government. Blackwater has received over $400,000,000 worth of no-bid contracts over the last several years in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Louisiana (after Katrina.) Somebody is making a lot of money on this war, and the politicians are allowing it to happen. There have been several incidents involving Blackwater, one in Afghanistan resulted in the deaths of several marines being flown about by "Luke Skywalker" - that's what the Blackwater pilot said it was like before he crashed into a mountain. As far as Chicago Cops killing people, lets pretend that they were foreign security forces killing a group of 20 unarmed U.S. citizens in Chicago - wouldn't that cause an uproar? War is money. Politician all become millionaires without actually holding a job outside of office, except for serving on the board of directors of companies that got no-bid contracts during times of crisis. That's not to hard to figure out. "

medic57 wrote on Oct 7, 2007 5:31 AM:

" Tom Andres -- What do Kerry, Durbin. Murtha and Fonda have to do with the Republicans hiring Blackwater? -- fatherbob -- He won't be impeached, not unless he attacks Iran. "

The Question wrote on Oct 7, 2007 9:21 AM:

" Billie, you started out by defending the actions of U.S. troops. Now, to back up your little fascist pals here, you’re minimizing the enormity of what’s been done by lawless no-bid Republican mercenaries who shoot innocent people at random, apparently sometimes for sport. Are you really sure you want to travel down that road? "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 7, 2007 10:13 AM:

" You're right, Billie. Dave does have that ability, however I would have been more impressed, if he had at least expressed just a little bit of concern for those innocent folks apparently killed by our side. The statistical analysis does not negate the simple fact that, if it happened as it seems to have, it was wrong. I do hope that when this thing is investigated, we will find out that it was not what it appears to be. I hope it was all a misunderstanding. I also wonder that if we had foreign workers in this country, and they allegedly killed some Americans, would we insist on trying them, or would we let them return to their home land for trial? "

Locke wrote on Oct 7, 2007 2:26 PM:

" First, Kerry and Murtha did more for this country than you ever did Tom. I'm so glad Dave and Billie have everything in perspective -- you ever hear of the Boston Massacre? That was one case, not six thousand. See, it doesn't really matter what we think, it matters what the Iraqi people think, and obviously the Iraqi government does have a problem with Blackwater. We are in Iraq to "win the hearts and minds" of the Iraqi people, not the hearts and minds of Republicans whom already support the war in Iraq. "

The Question wrote on Oct 7, 2007 3:30 PM:

" That's funny, Andres. My dad always used to say, "You're known by the empty-headed cliches you spout — you know, vapid bromides like, 'You're known by the company you keep.'" "

The Question wrote on Oct 7, 2007 5:18 PM:

" The State Department overlooked repeated warnings from U.S. diplomats in the field that guards were endangering Iraqi civilians and undermining U.S. efforts to win support from the population, according to current and former U.S. officials. Ever since the contractors were granted immunity from Iraqi courts in June 2004 by the U.S.-led occupation authority, diplomats have cautioned that the decision to do so was "a bomb that could go off at any time," said one former U.S. official. ••• In other words, the Blackwater atrocities we already know about are just the tip pf the iceberg. The Bush fascists have been busy covering up for the their Blackwater storm troopers all along. "

The Question wrote on Oct 7, 2007 9:21 PM:

" When they came home from Iraq, 2,600 members of the Minnesota National Guard had been deployed longer than any other ground combat unit. The tour lasted 22 months and had been extended as part of President Bush's surge. 1st Lt. Jon Anderson said he never expected to come home to this: A government refusing to pay education benefits he says he should have earned under the GI bill. **** What do you think about that, Billie? Why don't you put that on one of your Republican "Support the Troops" ribbons? Bush and Cheney still have plenty of millions to pay their murderous Blackwater storm troopers, though, don't they? "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 7, 2007 10:11 PM:

" Subject: Now come on guys! You know darned well I don't support out of control misfits who commit "atrocities" whether they are military or non-military. I have said so time after time. If they are found to be guilty, throw the book at them!! My point in referring to Dave's post was the ratio of these misfits to the ones doing their jobs without resorting to this kind of behavior is small. AND Question, YOU, who are always spouting off about "due process" (especially for pedophiles) , aren't willing to give our military or the security personnel the same benefit of the doubt. Nope! You resort to what you called "Nancy Grace hysteria" and are ready figuratively, to lynch them from the highest tree. Guilty! Your verdict is in before any criminal charges have been officially made. You continually berate those of us who support our military and make references(paraphrasing here) to our blood-thirstiness. Your "blood lust" toward out military is there for all to see! It's directed at our people. It doesn't matter if the overwhelming majority of our military serves with honor and distinction . To you , they are all tools of destruction and not worthy of respect. ...Dohbaugh, I hope they get to the bottom of it too, because we don't need this kind of thing going on if it's true. At least you are willing to wait and see and not throw out a blanket condemnation. As far as your scenario about foreign worker's being invovled in crimes here, I would think it's a different ballgame. We are talkng about supposed "crimes" in a war zone not a domestic one. We are dealing with that on a regular basis it seems now, with illegals being charged with crimes on an almost weekly basis. For you Question, dealing with the returning vets being denied benefits. Of course it ticks me off! It's disgraceful! I've never said the system was perfect! Far from it! How do you think it would make me, the wife of a 100% disabled vet(deceased now for those of you who don't know) feel? You don't take no for an answer when dealing with the VA or any other government agency dealing with vets benefits! You fight for them! We did and were successful at it! You make waves!!! So take your smug little question about it and stuff it! You should know better ! "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 7, 2007 10:16 PM:

" ...Locke- Murtha has YET to apologize to the Haditha Marines that were cleared of all charges. He runs and hides in an elevator when asked about it. For a former Marine who is so quick to condemn his fellow Marines with a "verdict first, trial later " mindset, doesn't seem like "due process to me right Question? You seem to tout "due process" at every opportunity! Seems backwards to me, verdict, then trial!. Some Marine huh!... "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 7, 2007 10:31 PM:

" John Kerry? He lied when he shot off his mouth to the senate before he ever ran for office about all the atrocities "a la Genghis Khan" being commonplace in Vietnam. His "Winter Soldier Investigation" in 1971 was suspect. Later it was found that events could not be confirmed. Some of those who told the stories of atrocities were vets, some weren't. Some were imposter's. Some were honorably discharged, some weren't. There wasn't any proof or conformation of any of this crap!! Steve Pitkin, one of those who told of these "atrocities" later filed a LEGAL affidavit stating that Kerry and other's coerced him to "testify" about non-existent atrocities at the Winter Soldier Investigation.....John Kerry continues to to use character assassination against the U.S. military with his" soldier's are going into homes of Iraqi's in the middle of the night, terrorizing women and children" type of bs. He just can't seem to help himself! He goes on to show his true colors as far as the military is concerned with his statement " You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq." I LOVED IT when those soldier's in Iraq had their picture taken with a bunch of misspelled words with a message to Kerry! It was priceless! It was all over the internet!!...Of course when it suits his purpose, he "hauls out" all of his medals, the ones he supposedly threw away, then later claimed they belonged to someone else and proudly holds them up for all the world to see. Guess he thinks he was the only honorable person in the military during Vietnam so he could keep his medals huh? If he truly believed all that swill he testified to before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April of 1971, why didn't he toss HIS medals away? Answer---- He KNEW he would need them later to show what a hero he was when he decided to run for office.....Speaking of running for office, how about some of the stuff he threw out there during his failed presidential campaign? Addressing the VFW National Convention in Cincinnati in 2004 he said " Let me offer this pledge. .As president, I will always remember that America's security begins and ends with the soldier, sailor, airman, Marine and Guardsman, Coast Guardsman, with every man and every woman in our armed services who has ever stood guard at the gates of freedom. ..Today, I salute each and every one of you for your commitment, your strength and your extraordinary courage. America says thank you and we all join today in a special salute to the greatest generation veterans whose memorial finally stands proudly in a place of honor on the Mall in Washington. .Thank you for your extraordinary example as citizen soldier..I also want to just say a word briefly, if I may, to those who are currently risking their lives in places as far away as Iraq and Afghanistan and other places. America's prayers are with you. We honor your service. We thank you for your sacrifice. And we pledge to stand with you and with your families as you stand for ours." .... He goes on to say "Like veterans of all wars past, today's fighting men and women deserve our prayers and support, and then when they come home, they deserve the respect and welcome of a grateful nation. After all, the first definition of patriotism in my judgment, beyond service to country, is keeping faith with those who have worn the uniform of the United States of America".... Wow! Did he really say that? Did he mean it? Is this the same guy who now accuses our soldier's of horrible things? Is this the man who seemed to hold them in high esteem while he was running for president, but after he lost, started throwing stones at them" Is this the same man addressing the VFW National Convention in 2004, who back in 1971 criticized the VFW and American Legion in a 1971 book: "We will not quickly join those who march on Veterans Day waving small flags, calling to memory those thousands who died for the 'greater glory of the United States." ... We will not readily join the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars," he wrote. According to several bio's available on the internet he has a lifetime membership in the VFW, and is a member of The American Legion as well. I have tried to find confirmation of this, but so far I've been unable to pin it down. So, did he join these "flag waving organizations" which he put down all those years ago when it became a "plus" for him to do so? The American Legion Post mentioned in an article I saw on the net mentioned Post 63 in Salem NH. I couldn't find much information on it. Whether he joined these organizations or not, I would think those words he wrote would come back to haunt him when he addressed the very organizations he seemed to distain all those years ago... He is a chameleon. That's for sure!!! So go ahead ! Do your worst and chastise me for not being a Kerry lover. I won't say anymore because it makes my blood pressure go up to dangerously high levels. I'll never convince any of you who think he's the "greatest" that he isn't. I'm not a big GWB fan either! "

The Question wrote on Oct 8, 2007 5:32 AM:

" "Due process," Billie? Blackwater doesn't need due process because — thanks to Bush's puppet government in Iraq — they have been declared ABOVE THE LAW, and free to kill innocent people with impunity. Get real and stop shilling for the fascists, Billie. "

The Question wrote on Oct 8, 2007 5:35 AM:

" The Iraqi prime minister’s office said Sunday that the government’s investigation had determined that Blackwater USA private security guards who shot Iraqi civilians three weeks ago in a Baghdad square sprayed gunfire in nearly every direction, committed “deliberate murder” and should be punished accordingly. Iraqi investigators, supported by Iraqi witness accounts, have said unofficially that they could not find evidence of any attack on the Blackwater guards that might have provoked the shooting on Nisour Square, which the Iraqis say killed 17 and wounded 27. But the statement by Ali al-Dabbagh, a spokesman for the prime minister, is the first indication that the government considers its investigation completed and the shootings unprovoked. However, the law gives American contractors virtual immunity. "

medic57 wrote on Oct 8, 2007 8:37 AM:

" The Question ----- Iraqi witnesses? Are these the same kind of witnesses they have in the Palestinian areas in Isreal, you know, the doctors and lawyers that always say that it is ALWAYS children and old women getting killed by Isreali airstrikes, yet say it's ok for themselves to bomb Isreali daycare centers? "

AllYouNeedIsLove wrote on Oct 8, 2007 10:48 AM:

" Actually, there has been way more problems with Blackwater. They have had 50-some cases opened since the start of 2007, and prosecuters are only going after 6 of them, merely because of the Iraqis concerns. One recent article I read said there were 180, 000 private contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan, while 160, 000 are our soldiers. So this means that over half of the people we sent to the middle east have not been held liable for anything. The U.S. is abusing its power. Many Americans are too scared to admit this, because we want to have great support for our soldiers, and for our country. However, the soldiers aren't the only ones getting injured and dying. I feel for the soldiers...but can you imagine people speaking another language coming into your house, grabbing and touching you, arresting you, and taking your family away? Yeah, Sadaam was an evil man, but the U.S. under the Bush Admin. is proving to be just as wicked. Why do we have the right to do things in our countries to other people that we would not do to ourselves in our country? "

coonbug wrote on Oct 8, 2007 11:09 AM:

" While I don't doubt the Blackwater group did this, the last person I would listen to is the Iraqi prime minister. He can't run his own country without our help and he's telling US what is real and isn't? "

The Question wrote on Oct 8, 2007 12:31 PM:

" "Iraqi witnesses? Are these the same kind of witnesses they have in the Palestinian areas in Israel, you know." **** No, Meds, did you forget? These are the people we are supposedly in Iraq to "bring democracy to" — not to cold-bloodedly gun down in the streets. Why not admit that you right wingers have always wanted to dominate and destroy ordinary Iraqis, and that all that nonsense you peddle about "democracy" is just so much moonshine to be swallowed by the old fools who watch Fox News? "

The Question wrote on Oct 8, 2007 12:41 PM:

" " While I don't doubt the Blackwater group did this, the last person I would listen to is the Iraqi prime minister. He can't run his own country without our help and he's telling US what is real and isn't? •••• We invaded, occupied and destroyed a country, killing thousands of people, to install this "democratically elected" creep in office. Who else do you suggest we listen to? "

Locke wrote on Oct 8, 2007 6:00 PM:

" Yes, Murtha and Kerry did all those things Billie... and your point is? Did I say they were great Americans? Did I say they were war heroes? Did I say I even respected them? No Billie, all I said is they did more for this country than someone else. Say whatever you like, both Murtha and Kerry served in the active duty military. They did not get five deferments for various reasons, they did not have a boil on their bottom and use it as an excuse not to serve, they did not get two different deferments for college and then drop out both times, they didn't have "other priorities during the 60s", they did not avoid military service for religious reasons, and they did not keep Texas safe from the communist North Oklahomans but go AWOL. Weren't you railing against calling a very politicized-general a certain name just a few short weeks ago? Billie, for someone who supports and loves our troops so much, you sure aren't very supportive and loving if those troops don't agree with your politics. So, essentially, you are only for those troops who agree with you politically? Billie, how very arrogant of you -- only you have the knowledge and wisdom to dictate to us who is a soldier worthy of respect and a soldier who deserves our collective scorn. "

The Question wrote on Oct 8, 2007 6:24 PM:

" Iraqi authorities want the U.S. government to sever all contracts in Iraq with Blackwater USA within six months. They also want the firm to pay $8 million in compensation to families of each of the 17 people killed when its guards sprayed a traffic circle with heavy machine gun fire last month. The demands _ part of an Iraqi government report examined by The Associated Press _ also called on U.S. authorities to hand over the Blackwater security agents involved in the Sept. 16 shootings to face possible trial in Iraqi courts. "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 8, 2007 6:49 PM:

" Does anyone know if Blackwater USA, a subsidiary of Halliburton? If it is, that would explain a lot. If it isn't, I would have to wonder how much stock Cheney has in it, or Bush for that matter. "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 8, 2007 7:21 PM:

" The general you are referring to is the commander that we are speaking of is the commander of our military forces in a war we are engaged in as we speak. Whether you agree with the war or not he IS responsible for the lives of all these people. What an awsome responsibility that is! Retired General Wesley Clark seems to think the general didn't deserve that slam either and he's supporting the Democratic side in many instances..As far as old "boil on the butt" I'm not real fond of him either as I have said several times here. In fact he makes my blood boil! Check out what I said about GWB. Do I think he hid out during Vietnam. Yep I do!Not nutty about him either I'm also not real keen on Bill Clinton being in a nice cushy setting at Oxford during Vietnam either..... Although I didn't think we needed to go into Iraq when we did, now that we are committed we have to stay and see it through. Troops agreeing or not agreeing with my politics have NOTHING to do with my supporting them. They have a right to say what they please and I have a right to agree or disagree. They served and many of them have suffered life altering injuries and many have died so that you and I can do just that for well over 200 years!... I find it very offensive though when a former military man takes it upon himself to slander and try to villify a whole generation of veterans most of whom served with honor in Vietnam. My opinion of this man was formed well over 25 years ago, closer to 30 years in fact. I didn't know much about this guy until I married a Vietnam vet and started learning about him. AND no, I wasn't told how to think or form an opinion by him either! I did my own reading, and and checking and made up my own mind! We were involved with the POW/MIA "situation" and I still am, so there's another reason I don't care for the man. We feel he sabotaged the whole senate hearings on it back in the "90's". My opinion about him hasn't changed and is unlikely to ... As far as politics goes, I was a Democrat for years, almost 40 years as a matter of fact. I can't follow most of what they stand for now. They are way too far left for me. I consider myself an Independant now. I don't "go along" with everything the Republicans stand for either. I have NEVER voted a straight ticket in my life! I pick and choose my "Battles".. I don't believe I "dictate" how anyone should feel about anything. I'll admit I'm very vocal and passionate about what I believe in as are many on here, but dictate ? I put what I think and feel out there. You're free to agree or disagree with it. So if you want to think I'm arrogant about it, knock yourself out! You have the right to think so... AS far as your crack about Tom, do you actually know what Tom did while serving in the military? Just because he didn't hold office in the House or Senate, makes his service any less worthy; is that what you're saying? You wrote "First, Kerry and Murtha did more for this country than you ever did Tom." That's being a little arrogant with your knowledge and wisdom don't cha think Locke? "

Locke wrote on Oct 8, 2007 7:51 PM:

" And that's why I like you so much Billie. =) "

Doh wrote on Oct 8, 2007 8:48 PM:

" (“Yes, Murtha and Kerry did all those things Billie…”) - I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts. "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 8, 2007 9:07 PM:

" " And that's why I like you so much Billie. =) " Are you sure about that Locke? =) back at cha! "

medic57 wrote on Oct 8, 2007 11:56 PM:

" The Question wrote --- These are the people we are supposedly in Iraq to "bring democracy to" — not to cold-bloodedly gun down in the streets. --- And when they cold-bloodedly kill our legitimate soldiers that are there trying to help them??? Is that ok Question? Carefull of your answer, you'll show your left side. "

The Question wrote on Oct 9, 2007 8:47 AM:

" America now stands for torture, secret prisons, spying on its citizens, permanent military occupations and no-bid mercenaries who murder innocent people at random on the street. This state of affairs has been eagerly sought by the fascist Republicans and fearfully acquiesced to by the cowardly Democrats. This is an America of frightened children who will submit to any horror, as long as it is accompanied by false promises of safety. This is America the sickening. The heroes who founded this country would spit on us — and should. "

ItsJustDave wrote on Oct 9, 2007 8:48 AM:

" The more information that comes out, the more it looks like these killings by Blackwater security forces were unjustified. If that is the case, those responsible should be held accountable, as should any member of the U.S. Armed Forces who acts similarly. The families of the victims should be compensated. That being said, kicking Blackwater out of the country is not the answer. They provide a service that no one else can - protecting the people and supply lines vital to rebuilding Iraq. You don't disband the Illinois State Police if a trooper goes wacko and clubs a speeder to death - you punish that trooper, and find out if his superiors had knowledge of or encouraged such tendencies. If Blackwater goes, so should the Red Cross and anyone involved in civillian rebuilding efforts - engineers, builders, doctors, food service companies - everyone. If that happens, then U.S. military forces should withdraw, too. I have supported this mess, but if the people that we are trying to help build a safe and stable country don't want us there, it's time to go. Let them handle the situation if that's what they want. Of course, we'll have to go back in a few years when Iran and Syria have nuclear weapons ready to strike Jerusalem and London, but that's another story. "

father bob wrote on Oct 9, 2007 9:26 AM:

" """"The Question ----- Iraqi witnesses? """".....here's one for you medic/billie...........CHAPEL HILL, NC—A field study released Monday by the University of North Carolina School of Public Health suggests that Iraqi citizens experience sadness and a sense of loss when relatives, spouses, and even friends perish, emotions that have until recently been identified almost exclusively with Westerners. "We were struck by how an Iraqi reacts to the sight of the bloody or decapitated corpse of a family member in a not unlike an American, or at the very least a Canadian, would," said Dr. Jonathan Pryztal, chief author of the study. "In addition to the rage, bloodlust, and hatred we already know to dominate the Iraqi emotional spectrum, it appears that they may have some capacity, however limited, for sadness." Though Pryztal was quick to add that more detailed analysis is needed, he said the findings cast some doubt on long-held assumptions about human nature in that region. "

father bob wrote on Oct 9, 2007 9:34 AM:

" Dave....the iraqi parlement reported yesterday the 3 sects shia, sunni, kurds, could not come an agreement due to irreconcilable differences regarding power. we've tried to shove a democratic government down their throats, and all they want is the status quo. we're basically back to square one after years, billions of US dollars and a few thousand lives of brave american soldiers...for nothing. nada. all they want is us out of there so they can settle things their way. "

ItsJustDave wrote on Oct 9, 2007 11:39 AM:

" Father bob: I dunno whether to censure you or applaud you - using 'The Onion' as a news source? Although I hadn't read the 'article' before, as soon as I saw the [not unlike an American, or at the very least a Canadian, would] line, I recognized the source immediately. Maybe that gives a little insight on how warped my little world is. For those who are wondering what the he11 I'm talking about, link here - http://tinyurl.com/26t2or "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 12:12 PM:

" " medic/billie...........CHAPEL HILL, NC—A field study released Monday by the University of North Carolina School of Public Health suggests that Iraqi citizens experience sadness and a sense of loss when relatives, spouses, and even friends perish, emotions that have until recently been identified almost exclusively with Westerners." from fatherbob's post..What? We're surprised that they show emotion at these sights?..Just "who" indentified these "feelings" which are almost exclusively identified with Westerner's? "We were struck by how an Iraqi reacts to the sight of the bloody or decapitated corpse of a family member in a not unlike an American, or at the very least a Canadian, would," said Dr. Jonathan Pryztal, chief author of the study." Says who? It's news to me that they don't have these feelings also. We've seen these reactions on TV daily and now they're telling us they "may" have them! The government probably paid for such a study at the University of North Carolina Public Health to tell us that the Iraqi's feel emotional gut wrenching pain at the sights described in your post like we do as if we didn't know already that they do. Why wouldn't they? Countless news reports from all over the world in different countries have shown how people react to traumatic events. They show crying, wailing, shock with no immediate reactions to uncontrollable ones. In other words grief in all forms. We see it in videos on TV news and the internet!....This study sounds like so many other's that get government money to tell us what we already know. I remember the senator from Wisconsin(whom I voted for by the way in the 60's), the late William Proxmire(D) while he was in office handed out his "Golden Fleece" Awards every year to such idiotic studies. I remember a particular study years ago that investigated "Why kids fall off bicycles" Duh! Hello! It's because they haven't learned how to balance and ride one yet! Yep! We really needed to spend money on that one! I'm not sure if it made his "fleece list" or not, but it should have!... Just "who" is "who" this Prytzal is refering to concerning findings "on long-held assumptions about human nature in that region." "Who" made this assumption? I certainly didn't and no one I know would have. I would think that grief in all it's manifestations is universal, not regional. The only "native" people in that region who don't show any compassion or feelings are the terrorists who think nothing of booby trapping their own babies among other little tricks they pull out of their bags of terror! Yes fatherbob, it bother's me to see these things too. I'm not the bloodthirsty or unfeeling b--ch you think I am! It particularly bother's me when I see severed heads held up proudly by brave,terrorists(ugh!)with their cowardly faces hidden from the world! For these dregs, I have no compassion! Zip!.. Yes, it also makes me cringe and fighting mad when a few in comparison to the whole of our people run amuck and deliberatly do horrible things to innocents also. It's also heartbreaking to see civilians caught in the crossfire of a warzone during a battle or attack. I feel very deeply for our people killed and maimed too. In a perfect world bob, we wouldn't have to see these things or deal with them. I wish it were so. Humans, being the imperfct beings we are, it isn't likely to happen. I don't like this war or any for that matter, but we are in it and have to stay and see it through not only for us, but for the Iraqi's. We owe it to them. "

father bob wrote on Oct 9, 2007 12:53 PM:

" thanks dave....i thought i'd throw a little humor into the mix. since posters are always talking about "those people" and how "those people" differ from the rest of humanity. "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 1:14 PM:

" The Iraqi Parliament reported yesterday, father-bob? No- the Washington Post reported yesterday, quoting several members of the Iraqi government; some named and some unnamed. The main point of contention is that the Iraqi's reject the idea of "reconciliation" as a matter of policy. According to Shiite cleric Humam Hamoudi - "Reconciliation should be a result and not a goal by itself," he said. "You should create the atmosphere for correct relationships, and not wave slogans that 'I want to reconcile with you.' " ==== And here is what Tariq al-Hashimi (one of Iraq's two vice presidents and the most influential Sunni politician in the country) had to say - "Pulling out from the government was not a target, it's just a means, a way to encourage the government to perform in a better way," Hashimi said. "The response of the government has been very, very slow." ===== What we are seeing here is political bargaining "Arab-style". This is a culture that haggles and debates during daily transactions in the local markets, not to mention that there is still bad blood between the Shiite and Sunni left over from Saddam's thirty years of terror. But the likelihood of any tribe permanently walking away from their position in the government is doubtful, for one very simple and very common reason in the realm of politics the world over- money. No sect wants to pass up their share of the oil rights. And you can bet that oil is being used as the ultimate bargaining chip. This whole process will be slow. But as long as peace continues to increase among tribes in the general population- the more likely it is that the leaders will eventually follow. "

The Question wrote on Oct 9, 2007 2:10 PM:

" It's also heartbreaking to see civilians caught in the crossfire of a warzone during a battle or attack. I feel very deeply for our people killed and maimed too. In a perfect world bob, we wouldn't have to see these things or deal with them. •••• The evidence shows that these weren't "civilians caught in a crossfire," Billie. They were civilians deliberately and casually murdered by American mercenaries. So we don't need "a perfect world" to solve this problem. We need an administration that will not pay taxpayer millions to employ murderous thugs. "

The Question wrote on Oct 9, 2007 2:28 PM:

" Doh wrote on Oct 7, 2007 8:09 PM: " Cognitus - ("Note that the people killed by Blackwater are usually described as "suspected terrorists" -- would we accept our own police shooting to death people who are only "suspected" wrong-doers??") ====== Uhhhmmmm........if they were in the middle of a WAR ZONE, then YES! Would you prefer that the Blackwater agents kindly call for a "cease-fire" so they could read the "innocent civilians" there Miranda Rights? Geezuz! See this? This is EXACTLY why Liberals should never be in charge of our National Security- much less a war. Unbelievable! " •••• From this, I take it that you endorse Blackwater. Is that right, Doh? "

The Question wrote on Oct 9, 2007 3:59 PM:

" You support Blackwater, Doh. Is that right? (Sound of crickets zinging.) "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 3:59 PM:

" Allow me to REPOST my response to you AGAIN Question: ========= ("Doh wrote on Oct 7, 2007 11:05 PM: "("What's "unbelievable," Doh, is that the Blackwater storm troopers have MURDERED innocent people, and you defend them! What kind of a human being are you?") - I haven't "defended" anybody. I simply attacked a very stupid supposition that the Blackwater agents in the middle of a war zone should be held to the same civil jurisprudence as that of American law enforcement in peace-time conditions. I’m withholding judgment in this particular case until the FACTS have been disclosed. But please; don’t let me stand in the way of your “lynch-mob” rush to conviction, as you go all "Haditha-Marines" with your “whatever lie it takes to lose this war” soapbox insanity. But tell me Question- what if some of those Blackwater contractors are pedophiles? Still feel like lynch-mobing? Got you by the heart-strings with that one- huh. OMG- is that a tear in your eye? ") "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:15 PM:

" I didn't mention the problems with Blackwater specifically Question. I was speaking in general terms of innocent civilians. If the employees of Blackwater are proven to be culpable, I will have no sympathy towards the people who did this, just as I don't toward the insurgents who set off IED's that kill and maim their OWN people. It's an unfortunate fact that civilians often pay the price in any war. I do not go in for deliberate "payback's" aimed at innocent civilians because some misfits run amuck and want to get even. AS far as the military goes these incidents are few also, but they get BIG headlines. All too often some have to jump on the bandwagon and try to paint the military as a whole with this brush and it just AIN'T so! These Blackwater employees need to be investigated and the bums that do this sort of thing need to be punished if found responsible. I'm not against that at all Question! I wish you would see that! Are all Blackwater personnel guilty by association? I don't think so. Neither is the whole military for the dishonorable actions of a few. "

The Question wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:19 PM:

" Why don't you want to support your "solid progress" shoot-em-up GOP pals in Blackwater, Doh? Something about them make you nervous? And Billie, why should Blackwater be paid billions of our tax dollars at all? Do you think U.S. troops are incapable of protecting State Dept. personnel? Are U.S. troops inferior to Blackwater? "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:23 PM:

" There's my response for the SECOND TIME Question......(Sound of crickets bored) yawn* "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:32 PM:

" Let me say this again- I'm witholding any judgements on Blackwater until ALL THE FACTS HAVE BEEN DISCLOSED. Unlike you, I prefer to be well informed; as opposed to shooting off my mouth out of a knee-jerk reaction like you always do. You get so excited when you think you've got old Doh in a corner, don't you twinkles! kiss kiss* "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:32 PM:

" Well fatherbob, I guess I should have a red face as far as you're concerned with your little "bit" about the Iraqi's showing emotion's. I bit bigtime! I've never heard of The Onion" To me the whole post and the source you quoted( University of North carolina) seemed perfectly legitimate. After all as I pointed out our government has given grants running in the millions of dollars for stupid studies as the one you wrote about (although bogus it seems)in your post. Have a good laugh! I am! I got caught! Lol! The subject matter wasn't funny though. You got me on a roll didn't ya!Score one for you!=) "

The Question wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:37 PM:

" I see, Doh. You're "withholding judgment," even though Iraq's government has already pronounced judgment from the results of their investigation. That really means that you're just holding out for some feeble Bush-Cheney-Rice lie that you Blackwater supporters can hide behind, doesn't it, Doh? Then you can gleefully cheer the mass murder of some more of those innocent Iraqis you're so busy "liberating" with your "solid surge progress." Right? "

father bob wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:38 PM:

" What we are seeing here is political bargaining "Arab-style".........spoken by Doh Kissenger "

father bob wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:40 PM:

" Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:32 PM: " Let me say this again- I'm witholding any judgements on Blackwater until ALL THE FACTS HAVE BEEN DISCLOSED. ...............like anyone cares. "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:58 PM:

" Now wait a minute Question, if the Iraqi government is falling apart and hopelessly fractured- then how on earth could they manage any kind of a plausible investigation in the midst of the disastrous chaos that you claim Iraq is in? How can that be Question? "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:04 PM:

" You're right father-bob; when have you Libtard clowns ever cared about facts. "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:06 PM:

" This is fun! Two whipping-boys with only half a brain between them for old Doh to spank up. I should pay you clowns! "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:07 PM:

" Well Question. First of all the U.S. military is not inferior to any military in the world. You see, since we did away with the draft and went with an all volunteer military as most of the citizens in this country prefer, we don't have as many personnel. Sooo,our State Department hires outside security to pick up the slack. It as nothing to do with our military not being qualified, it's a matter of numbers don't cha see?.. Hey Question! Let's re-instate the draft and maybe your liberal azz will get called up! Wouldn't that be something! Oh! I forgot! You'd probably run to Canada! "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:12 PM:

" Until all the facts are in, Doh? I hope you mean that, and don't follow the example of George, who said, if I find out someone leaked, I will fire them. Remember that one? I will expect you to keep your word and not try to spin your way out, if we find the Blackwater folks actually committed atrocities. If an investigation clears them, they will be vindicated, and you can crow all you want. But if they are found guilty, I expect you to own up to it, and take the same position as our friend, Billie Brant. I do agree that we need to wait for the details to come out, and I hope Bush doesn't put Cheney in charge of any investigation into this matter. In my mind, Cheney has no credibility left for anything, Iraq war or anything else for that matter. "

father bob wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:15 PM:

" Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 4:32 PM: " Well fatherbob, I guess I should have a red face as far as you're concerned..............no, i like you billie, and respect what you have to say because i know it's your opinion. you don't try to force that opinion on anyone, unlike another poster who's name i won't mention, but initials are D.O.H...you were speaking from your heart, and that's different than just parroting Fox news, or copying and pasting from who knows where. those are the ones i was prodding. to them the iraqi people are just numbers and a byproduct of a quagmire of lies the bushies still think the can "shoot their way out of". "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:30 PM:

" Well fatherbob, I thank you for the kind words, but I don't think the poster with the initials D.O H. thinks of the Iraqi's as numbers or quigmire byproducts. He just has a different approach when he posts than I do. He does care. I've seen his heart on his sleeve more than once on these threads. "

father bob wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:36 PM:

" I've seen his heart on his sleeve more than once on these threads. ".....i think that's just where he wiped his mouth after lunch billie. "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:39 PM:

" Dohbaugh- ("I will expect you to keep your word and not try to spin your way out, if we find the Blackwater folks actually committed atrocities.") - Spin my way out of what? I haven't taken any position on the matter. === ("If an investigation clears them, they will be vindicated, and you can crow all you want.") - Why would I crow? It would just mean that the Left flew off half-cocked in yet another attempt to discredit the United States. So, what will your response be once we know all the facts, Dohbaugh? "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 5:53 PM:

" Dohbaugh, I have a feeling Doh will be mad as a hornet and willing to denounce anyone who does nasty crap like this if they are found guilty of it. The same is true of the miniscule numer of troops who do this sort of thing. This kind of slippery dung puts a stain on our people and the honorable ones end up with some of the stink even if they don't deserve it. I remember Toby saying after the degrading pictures of prisoner's came out not , "We're gonna pay for this stupid zhit!" He was right! Not only did we pay for it with a stain on the honorable members of our military, but we paid for it in blood! "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 6:13 PM:

" Thank you very much Billie. I appreciate that more than you know. Let me explain something to you father-bob: I follow the Milblogs daily. I’ve kept track of the good and the bad in Iraq. I've been lucky enough to talk to several of the troops and I think I have a much better perspective of the Iraqi people than you do. I feel the same way about the Iraqi people that a lot of our grunts do; I consider them our brothers and sisters. I've seen the pictures of them tearfully hugging our men and women in uniform. I’ve seen the pictures of the young women and girls who were once again allowed to go to school after being liberated from the brutal hands of Al Qaeda. I’ve seen the photos of the senseless slaughtered bodies left behind by Al Qaeda. I’ve read the story of how the Iraqi's were told that the care packages that they had received had come from average American citizens in Kansas, and how at first, they didn't understand that. And how, when it was further explained to them, they were so overcome with emotion that all they could do was weep openly. And I've heard how the Iraqi children mimic our Marines out of respect and awe. I've read the stories about Iraqis (who were our former enemies) selflessly laying down their lives to protect American service personnel. And I've read the stories of our beloved grunts risking life and limb to do the same for the Iraqis. I've also heard of the dismay from the troops and the Iraqi people when they are told about the attitude of the war in this country. So don't lecture me about the human toll in this war- bob. I've gotten as close to it as anyone can without actually being there. And I have never used the lives of the Iraqi people as talking points. And if you really understood how their fate rests in our hands, you would shut the hell up about withdrawal timelines and let our troops finish their job. And I sincerely believe that President Bush feels the exact same way. So what have you read about Iraq in the paper today- bob? "

The Question wrote on Oct 9, 2007 7:14 PM:

" Hey Question! Let's re-instate the draft and maybe your liberal azz will get called up! Wouldn't that be something! Oh! I forgot! You'd probably run to Canada! •••• What a class act you are, Billie. "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 9, 2007 7:20 PM:

" Thank you Question! "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 7:46 PM:

" My response? As I said they will be vindicated, but I would point out to you, Doh. I too have said let's wait till the facts are in. I have always felt everyone deserves their day in court, and this goes for these folks too. My comment about the crowing, came from the fact that you seem to be falling back into that old bragging habit of old. I'm sure you know what I'm referring to. Personally, I prefer the new and improved Doh. "

Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 8:06 PM:

" Well Dohbaugh- we both agree on a pragmatic approach to the Blackwater affair. And Billie is right- if the security force knowingly opened fire on innocent civilians then I will be p!ssed. But let's see what comes about before we call the hangman. And as far as my bragging habit of old Dohbaugh- it was never directed towards you. And I use it for specific effect with specific posters. And it was more than provoked. "

Locke wrote on Oct 10, 2007 12:08 AM:

" BAGHDAD — U.S. forces backed by attack aircraft killed at least 25 Shiite militia fighters north of Baghdad Friday in an operation targeting a cell accused of smuggling weapons from Iran, the military said. The troops were seeking the commander of a rogue militia group believed to be associated with the Quds Force, an elite branch of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, the U.S. military said. Gunmen opened fire on the soldiers with assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades, and at least one man was carrying what appeared to be an anti-aircraft weapon, the military said. Ground forces called for air support when the fighters kept coming toward them, the military said. Two buildings were destroyed in airstrikes, it said. The U.S. military said separately that it was investigating the deaths of three civilians who were shot by American troops near a checkpoint set up by Iraqis who have joined forces against extremists. In Friday's pre-dawn raid on the Shiite militia members, U.S. aircraft repeatedly bombed the neighborhood in Khalis, a Shiite enclave about 50 miles north of Baghdad, according to an Iraqi army official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information. At least 24 were killed, 28 were injured, most of whom were in critical condition, and several others were missing, he said. He said civilians were killed when they rushed out to help those hurt in the initial bombing. The U.S. military said it had no reports that any Iraqi civilians were killed. "Coalition forces only engage hostile threats and take every precaution to protect innocent civilians," it said. The town's mayor said U.S. forces targeted areas built up by locals to protect their Shiite neighborhood against attacks by Al Qaeda gunmen. "These places came under attack by American airstrikes," said Khalis Mayor Odai al-Khadran. Since launching a Baghdad security crackdown more than seven months ago, U.S. troops have increasingly battled splinter groups from the country's most powerful Shiite militia, the Mahdi Army. The Mahdi Army is nominally loyal to al-Sadr, the radical cleric, who in August ordered a temporary freeze on his followers' activities — including attacks on U.S. troops. The U.S. military describes the splinter factions as "extremist" or "criminal" militiamen. "We continue to support the government of Iraq in welcoming the commitment by Muqtada al-Sadr to stop attacks and we will continue to show restraint in dealing with those who honor his pledge," Maj. Anton Alston, a U.S. military spokesman, said Friday. "We will not show the same restraint against those criminals who dishonor this pledge by attacking security forces and Iraqi citizens." Last month, the U.S. military arrested a man suspected of being a ranking officer of the Quds Force, the paramilitary branch of the Revolutionary Guards, which has been accused of arming Shiite militants in Iraq. Iran denies the charges. The arrest has added to the already strained relations between Washington and Tehran. The U.S. said the arrested Quds officer, Mahmudi Farhadi, was posing as a businessman with an Iranian trade delegation at the time of his arrest in a U.S. raid at a Sulaimaniyah hotel. In January, five other Iranians accused of being members of the Quds Force were arrested in a U.S. military raid in Irbil. They remain in U.S. detention. Iran says the men were in Iraq on official business. The investigation into the civilian deaths focused on a shooting Thursday in Abu Lukah, a village just north of Musayyib, about 40 miles south of Baghdad, the military said. The brief announcement did not identify the civilians by sect or provide other details. The U.S. military is relying heavily on the growing number of Sunni tribes that have turned against Al Qaeda, saying their support is key to a secure Iraq. It also has been trying to extend the movement to Shiites opposed to growing lawlessness among militia factions. The Americans point to successes in Anbar province, which is now largely peaceful after Sunnis joined the Iraqi military and police force as a way to both protect themselves from extremists and to empower them in the face of the Shiite-led central government in Baghdad. The U.S. military also reported the death of a U.S. soldier, killed by small-arms fire during operations Thursday in a southern section of the Iraqi capital used by Al Qaeda cells. "

The Question wrote on Oct 10, 2007 7:51 AM:

" Billie, do you mean to say that the billions spent to hire Blackwater and the other no-bid mercenary thugs would not be better spent employing more U.S. troops? You bet your azz they would. I guess I just have more faith in U.S. troops than you and the Chimpanzee in Chief display. Sad. Or, if you really insist that the problem here is a manpower shortage, not a pay shortage, and because you are so hot to reinstate the draft, I have another suggestion. Let’s conscript all “private security” mercenaries. They are already trained, they will cost taxpayers one-tenth as much as they do now, and they can then observe military discipline, which may even teach them to stop murdering innocent people at random. The CEO, Mr. Prince, should be the first to be drafted. They can operate using the same lousy armor we provide regular troops, and we’ll see how long they last. "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 9:04 AM:

" Doh wrote on Oct 9, 2007 6:13 PM: " Thank you very much Billie. I appreciate that more than you know. Let me explain something to you father-bob: I follow the Milblogs daily. I’ve kept track of the good and the bad in Iraq......................that's heart-rendering i think i'll puke. you think you have the market cornered on "talking to troops" and reading information? what a crock. "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 9:07 AM:

" BAGHDAD, Oct 10 (Reuters) - Car bombs, assassinations, kidnappings, mortar attacks and suicide bombers aside, it's convoys of private security guards hurtling through Baghdad streets that strike fear into many Iraqis. Incensed with the involvement of a U.S. security firm in the killing of 17 civilians at a busy Baghdad junction last month, Iraqis were again furious after guards from another foreign company shot dead two women in a car on Tuesday. But the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki came in for almost as much criticism as the foreign guards. "As long as the state is weak and cannot impose its control on the security situation, so the security companies will act freely in the streets," said a man, giving his name as Muhanad. "All this is linked to the power of the government. The government's only obsession is to protect itself and its friends while the Iraqi citizens can go to hell. The citizen is the victim, that's the truth," he said. "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 9:13 AM:

" Doh said:....""I’ve read the story of how the Iraqi's were told that the care packages that they had received had come from average American citizens in Kansas, and how at first, they didn't understand that. And how, when it was further explained to them, they were so overcome with emotion that all they could do was weep openly.""........and that what we should be doing. we need to do what's morally right. we are the one that have destroyed families, homes and the country....for no reason. "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:39 AM:

" Father-bob said: ("...that's heart-rendering i think i'll puke.") - Oh, I stand corrected, bob- obviously you DO care about the Iraqi people. What was I thinking? "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:40 AM:

" Father-bob said: ("you think you have the market cornered on "talking to troops" and reading information? what a crock.") - Again, my mistake bob. I forgot about the myriad of Milblogs that you cited. Again, what WAS I thinking. "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:41 AM:

" More pearls of wisdom from father-bob: (" we are the one that have destroyed families, homes and the country....for no reason.") - Again- what the heck was I thinking bob. So the Iraqi's have been rejecting Al-Qaeda and turning towards the U.S. military because they got sick and tired of Al-Qaeda UNITING FAMILIES AND BUILDING HOMES? Apparently we disrupted the Jihadist's "Habitat for Humanity" program- huh bob. No wonder Jimmy Carter has his knickers in a bunch. "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 2:09 PM:

" hmmmmm......seems as though i've struck a nerve..eh Doh? "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 2:19 PM:

" um ..........anyone know where osamma bin laden's at? isn't he the one who claims responsibility for 9/11? chances are if we had spent a tillion on finding him and then worried about a two bit dictator the troops would have been home by now. i'm betting when they find him, he'll be perched atop saddam's WMD stockpile. "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 2:21 PM:

" Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:40 AM: " Father-bob said: ("you think you have the market cornered on "talking to troops" and reading information? what a crock.") - Again, my mistake bob. I forgot about the myriad of Milblogs that you cited. Again, what WAS I thinking. ".........once again you show us what a complete moron you are. "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 3:19 PM:

" I've got some veeeeerrrrryyyyyy interesting news today. When U.S. forces invaded Iraq in 2003, they captured an enormous cache of classified Iraqi documents. Over a million actually. Our Intel community has been working around the clock translating and collating this collection of interesting facts- and guess what they've found.............there's a book coming out in a few short weeks.........does anybody remember Cheney causing a big uproar in the media a few months back when he restated Saddams, Al Qaeda connections?????..............hehehehe..........well Dick knew exactly what he was doing..............I think the Democratic Presidential candidates may want to rethink their talking points on Iraq...........I predict Hillary will do one helluva flip-flop........stay tuned folks.........this is going to be the "Mother Of All Bombshells".........maybe Bush isn't so stupid after all........Rove you magnificent B*stard!!!!! "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 10, 2007 3:56 PM:

" I'll try this again. I posted a reply to you Question, but it didn't make it on here. It happens. FIRST of all, I am not in favor of reinstituting the draft unless there's a dire need for it. I would think you would recognize sarcasm when you see it. After all, you're pretty good at it yourself. An all volunteer military is preferable don't you think? After all don't you think a person would feel a little better about the person next to them knowing they CHOSE to be there?. That is not to say drafted soldiers aren't or can't be dependable, but choosing to join makes better sense...I must admit I thought my eyes were deceiving me when I read what you wrote "I guess I just have more faith in U.S. troops than you and the Chimpanzee in Chief display." Since when? Is this the same Question that seems to delight in trying to show our military in the worst light possible.? Is this the same Question that seems to relish every wrong deed a few misfits who slipped through the cracks commit? Is this the same Question that attempts to put a huge blemish on the military as a whole because of the misdeeds of a few? Is this the same Question who jumped on the General Betray-Us bandwagon? Is this the same Question who after months of badmouthing the military, now says he more faith in our troops than I do? Knock me over with a feather!! What happened Question? What changed your mind?... You know darned well I have faith in our military and I have great respect for the men and women in it... Where do you suggest we get the troops needed in this statement in your post " Billie, do you mean to say that the billions spent to hire Blackwater and the other no-bid mercenary thugs would not be better spent employing more U.S. troops? You bet your azz they would." Probably so Question. BUT, where are these troops going to come from? The draft? IF the draft were to be used again, would you show up if your name was drawn? "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 4:10 PM:

" And just in case you MoveOn.org kids think I'm bluffing- you might want to re-visit this little article from The Telegraph.UK (April 27, 2003) THE PROOF THAT SADDAM WORKED WITH BIN LADEN - "Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terrorist network and Saddam Hussein's regime. Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al-Qa'eda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998. The documents show that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and al-Qa'eda based on their mutual hatred of America and Saudi Arabia. The meeting apparently went so well that it was extended by a week and ended with arrangements being discussed for bin Laden to visit Baghdad. The papers will be seized on by Washington as the first proof of what the United States has long alleged - that, despite denials by both sides, Saddam's regime had a close relationship with al-Qa'eda. THE TELEGRAPH FOUND THE FILE ON BIN LADEN INSIDE A FOLDER LYING IN THE RUBBLE OF ONE OF THE ROOMS OF THE DESTROYED INTELLIGENCE HQ. There are three pages, stapled together; two are on paper headed with the insignia and lettering of the Mukhabarat............................................Perhaps aware of the sensitivities of the subject matter, Iraqi agents at some point clumsily attempted to mask out all references to bin Laden, using white correcting fluid. The dried fluid was removed to reveal the clearly legible name three times in the documents...................http://tinyurl.com/aed1 "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 4:25 PM:

" The question will no longer be "Why did we invade Iraq" - but instead it will be - "Why in the hell didn't we invade sooner!" Trust me on this one kids. Trust me................. "

The Question wrote on Oct 10, 2007 4:31 PM:

" "Trust me on this one kids. Trust me..." ••• LOL. With your track record, Doh, I wouldn't trust you if you said the sun would rise in the east tomorrow. "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 4:49 PM:

" In that case Question, I'll let the translated documents speak for themselves. Now here is where you are suppose to make the accusation that the documents are phony.....go ahead....you know you want to...... "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 4:56 PM:

" Oh and.....it looks like Saddam also had a funny little relationship with the Taliban......actually....it wasn't so funny....and it wasn't so little....now ain't that a kick in the a55......... "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 5:27 PM:

" " I've got some veeeeerrrrryyyyyy interesting news today. When U.S. forces invaded Iraq in 2003, they captured an enormous cache of classified Iraqi documents. Over a million actually. Our Intel community has been working around the clock translating and collating this collection of interesting facts- and guess what they've found..................................... reading the Globe again? will there be alien abductions? "

father bob wrote on Oct 10, 2007 5:40 PM:

" Doh's as giddy as if he'd found his other sock.........what a moron. "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 5:57 PM:

" What's that bob? The U.S. military didn't capture a cache of Iraqi documents? Is that your argument, genius? "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 6:09 PM:

" The New York Times (November 3, 2006) U.S. Web Archive Is Said to Reveal a Nuclear Primer - “Last March, the federal government set up a Web site to make public a vast archive of Iraqi documents captured during the war. The Bush administration did so under pressure from Congressional Republicans who had said they hoped to “leverage the Internet” to find new evidence of the prewar dangers posed by Saddam Hussein. But in recent weeks, the site has posted some documents that weapons experts say are a danger themselves: detailed accounts of Iraq’s secret nuclear research before the 1991 Persian Gulf war. The documents, the experts say, constitute a basic guide to building an atom bomb. Last night, the government shut down the Web site after The New York Times asked about complaints from weapons experts and arms-control officials. A spokesman for the director of national intelligence said access to the site had been suspended “pending a review to ensure its content is appropriate for public viewing.” ------------- Read it here----- http://tinyurl.com/yylenc "

The Question wrote on Oct 10, 2007 7:20 PM:

" Stay tuned, everybody! Lord Darth Cheney is sending Doh the latest set of lies over his secret decoder ring! Boy O Boy!!!! Keen!!!! "

The Question wrote on Oct 10, 2007 7:25 PM:

" The State Department may phase out or limit the use of private security guards in Iraq, which could mean canceling Blackwater USA's contract or awarding it to another company in line with an Iraqi government demand, The Associated Press has learned. Such steps would be difficult given U.S. reliance on Blackwater and other contractors, but they are among options being studied during a comprehensive review of security in Iraq, two senior officials said. The review was ordered after a Sept. 16 incident in which Blackwater guards protecting a U.S. Embassy convoy in Baghdad are accused of killing 17 Iraqi civilians. The shooting has enraged the Iraqi government, which is demanding millions in compensation for the victims and removal of Blackwater in six months. It also has focused attention on the nebulous rules governing private guards and added to the Bush administration's problems in managing the war in Iraq. •••• How that's judgment of yours doing, Doh? Still withheld until you actually see Blackwater thugs blow innocent people's heads off with your own eyes? "

The Question wrote on Oct 10, 2007 7:51 PM:

" Hey. Doh, why didn't you tell us this part about your secret documents? **** Many of the documents seem to make clear that Saddam's regime had given up on seeking a WMD capability by the mid-1990s. As AP reported, "Repeatedly in the transcripts, Saddam and his lieutenants remind each other that Iraq destroyed its chemical and biological weapons in the early 1990s, and shut down those programs and the nuclear-bomb program, which had never produced a weapon." At one 1996 presidential meeting, top weapons program official Amer Mohammed Rashid, describes his conversation with UN weapons inspector Rolf Ekeus: "We don't have anything to hide, so we're giving you all the details." At another meeting Saddam told his deputies, "We cooperated with the resolutions 100 percent and you all know that, and the 5 percent they claim we have not executed could take them 10 years to (verify). Don't think for a minute that we still have WMD. We have nothing." "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 8:09 PM:

" I'm sorry Question- did I miss the final investigation of the Blackwater shootings? Did I miss a guilty verdict? I think you need to re-tune your MoveOn.org secret decoder ring. And uhhhmm....are you suggesting that the captured Iraqi documents are fakes? Or are they just inconvenient for you? "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 8:26 PM:

" I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than that Question. Your AP story covers documents from Saddams cabinet meetings. The documents I'm referring too are from Saddams Intelligence Agency- and the translations weren't finished until AFTER your March 2006 AP story. But thanks for verifying the authenticity of the document cache. I appreciate that very much. I think YOUR secret decoder ring needs re-tuned! "

Locke wrote on Oct 10, 2007 8:30 PM:

" I've got some veeeeerrrrryyyyyy interesting news today. When U.S. forces invaded Iraq in 2003, they did so based on an enormous cache of spy satellite imagery. Over eight images actually. Here's the proof: http://tinyurl.com/8cn6 "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 8:56 PM:

" Etu Locke? What- you don't believe the authenticity of the documents? I'm shocked! "

coonbug wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:04 PM:

" Locke, You have made my whole week with this BREAKING NEWS. I haven't laughed like that for months. Thank you for bringing a little humor to this God awful mess. "

Doh wrote on Oct 10, 2007 10:18 PM:

" Oh and Question- Your AP story cites the Duelfer Report which is ironic since that report clearly stated that Saddam had retained the capability to manufacture weapons of mass destruction. On chemical weapons The Duelfer Report states: - "Saddam sought to sustain the requisite knowledge base to restart the program eventually and, to the extent it did not threaten the Iraqi efforts to get out from under sanctions, to sustain the inherent capability to produce such weapons as circumstances permitted in the future." - On nuclear weapons, - "Saddam did not abandon his nuclear ambitions. . . . Those around Saddam seemed quite convinced that once sanctions were ended, and all other things being equal, Saddam would renew his efforts in this field." - Moreover, Duelfer concluded that Saddam in his missile program was developing missiles that exceeded the range limits set in U.N. Security Council Resolution 687. Duelfer also reported that Saddam asked subordinates how long it would take to develop chemical weapons once sanctions ended. One Iraqi chemical weapons expert said it would require only a few days to develop mustard gas. Former Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz said that Iraq could have had a WMD capacity within two years after the end of sanctions. If the weapons inspectors had been given more time to conduct inspections, we now know they would not have found any WMDs. Nor does it seem possible that they would have uncovered Saddam's attempts to maintain WMD capability. There would have been heavy pressure then from France, Russia, and China—whose companies were given kickbacks and windfall profits from the Saddam-administered U.N. Oil for Food program, to disband U.S. military forces in the Middle East and to end sanctions. And once sanctions were gone, there would have been nothing to stop Saddam from developing WMDs. In other words, we were facing a brutal dictator with the capability to develop WMDs and the proven willingness to use them. A dictator whose regime had had, as the 9/11 Commission has documented, FREQUENT contacts with al Qaeda. And the recently translated Iraqi documents prove that those frequent contacts were the result of a collaborative relationship going back to the early 1990's. "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:01 AM:

" I’m still waiting for you to explain your hypocrisy on the Blackwater affair, Question. When are you going to explain to us why you have any faith in the Iraqi government’s investigation of the incident, when you have been endlessly whining that their government is hopelessly fractured and the entire country is in chaos. Go ahead and explain to us how the Iraqi’s could have conducted a thorough and accurate investigation in just a few short weeks, when it would take law enforcement in the U.S., MONTHS to complete an honest assessment of the situation, AND in an established and peaceful society. Did you think I haven’t noticed your avoidance of the question? Why haven’t you given an answer on this? Why haven’t you explained your contradiction in logic? You have zero faith in the Iraqi’s to govern themselves, but when it comes to conducting a criminal investigation against Americans in a war zone- hey, no problem! I guess their government managed to “function” just long enough for your liking – huh? Please- do explain. "

The Question wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:52 AM:

" As usual, your logical skills are found wanting, Doh. The Iraqi government IS hopelessly fractured — but that doesn't prevent Iraqi politicians from seeing their innocent countrymen being murdered for nothing by American mercenary thugs right in front of their eyes, and knowing exactly what they are seeing. "

The Question wrote on Oct 11, 2007 9:15 AM:

" Author Naomi Klein notes that Blackwater and the other mercenary thug groups have been built almost exclusively with public resources, but entirely for private profit. “Ninety percent of Blackwater's revenues come from state contracts and virtually its entire staff is made up of former soldiers, which means that the training also came at public expense,” she said. “Yet this vast infrastructure is all privately owned and controlled. The citizens who have funded it have absolutely no claim to this shadow state or its resources. So I've become quite cynical about the claim that the architects of this new system are free-market ideologues. They are in fact corporate supremacists. The proof is that they will betray their supposed libertarian beliefs at the slightest opportunity if that betrayal will turn a profit for a crony company. You see the hypocrisy most shamelessly in the mega-contracts handed out so private companies can help the Bush administration read our emails and data-mine our lives. It's a kind of triple whammy of hypocrisy: these are people who purportedly believe in restrained government spending, individual liberties, and getting government off our backs, yet without hesitation they will expand the reach of the state, gobble up public money, and violate individual privacy, so long as there is profit in it. Calling the Bush gang "ideologues" gives them way too much credit.” "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 9:35 AM:

" SHOOOOOOOWEEEEEEE....how 'bout that steamin' pile Doh left here last night... "

The Question wrote on Oct 11, 2007 9:54 AM:

" Afghan authorities this week shut down two private security companies and said more than 10 others _ some suspected of murder and robbery _ would soon be closed, Afghan and Western officials said Thursday. Authorities on Tuesday shut down the Afghan-run security companies Wathan and Caps and 82 illegal weapons were found during the two raids in Kabul, police Gen. Ali Shah Paktiawal said. A Western security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said some major Western companies were on the list of at least 10 others tapped for closure, but would not give names. ••••• Better get ready to withhold some more of that fine judgment of yours, Doh. "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 11:05 AM:

" Really Question? So now the Iraqi politicians personally witnessed the shootings? And those same Iraqi politicians are conducting the investigation? All within a hopelessly fractured government? Tell me again how guilt or innocence can be accurately determined in this case. Because you have YET to explain this. As usual, your logical skills AND LACK OF ANSWERS are found wanting, Question. "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 11:10 AM:

" Oh and NOW Afghan authorities are having problems with some OTHER private security companies? And at the same time that the Blackwater incident is in the news? Now that's an AMAZING coincidence of timing isn't it Question? "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 11:23 AM:

" Still working in the medium of fecal material- huh bob? Well, at least you're playing to your strengths. "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 2:02 PM:

" Careful Boys(fatherbob and Doh)! You might need to trade in your boots for "waders" LOL! "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 2:35 PM:

" Doh (d).... Interj. a) A Gen-X colloquialism conveying an overall feeling of frustration. b) Used to express a feeling one has after realizing they have been tricked, misled, scammed, swindled, etc.. c) Used to boast or chide the victim of such tomfoolery d) Coined by the animated sitcom character Homer Simpson in the mid to late eighties, "Doh" is similar to other one word, one syllable explicatives in that it is a quick and succinct summary of one's aggravation, but differs in that it was an accepted substitute to similarly censored words. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 2:52 PM:

" d) Coined by the animated sitcom character Homer Simpson in the mid to late eighties.........now that proves you're a moron "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 2:59 PM:

" It's getting deeper! "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:10 PM:

" father-bob: a) Libtardious-fecalmanious b) term for tall protective rubber boot commonly known as a "poop-wader" "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:18 PM:

" bob: 1. a short, jerky motion 2. a docked horse's tail. 3. to try to snatch floating or dangling objects with the teeth: to bob for apples. 4. a dangling or terminal object, as the weight on a pendulum or a plumb line. 5. to float (as in unflushable) ie "a floater" "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:20 PM:

" Billie- when talking to bob; you ALWAYS need to wear "waders". "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:24 PM:

" Father-bob, you forgot to add that your dad can beat my dad up. Now stick out your tongue so I know you really mean it. "shudder" "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:29 PM:

" I apologize folks. But this is what happens when you deal with people like- bob. You end up with the smell all over you. Sorry again everyone, I should know better than this. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:35 PM:

" Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 3:29 PM: Sorry again everyone, I should know better than this. ".............you are sorry and a moron. "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:04 PM:

" I apologize for father-bob too folks. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:16 PM:

" if i wish to apologize, i will..... moron. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:17 PM:

" just keep babbling....you're making my point for me. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:19 PM:

" Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:04 PM: " I apologize for father-bob too folks. ".......what? this is YOUR show and you're talking to your audience? take a pill and chill for a while. "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:23 PM:

" Do I have to send you two to your romms without supper? "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:24 PM:

" I've obviously intimidated you father-bob; as is evidenced by the fact that you have lost all ability to offer any kind of criticism based on factual analysis, and have resorted exclusively to school yard name calling. Don't you think you owe the good people of this site an apology? Or shall I apologize for both of us again? "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:26 PM:

" Oops! Rooms! I don't want Question getting on my butt because I misspell a word now and then or fat finger a key! That won't do at all! "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:31 PM:

" That's terrific Question. If they can do it, go for it! Are you happy now? "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:34 PM:

" Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:24 PM: " I've obviously intimidated you father-bob; as is evidenced by the fact that you have lost all ability to offer any kind of criticism based on factual analysis, and have resorted exclusively to school yard name calling. Don't you think you owe the good people of this site an apology?................not only no, but he// no! they'd have to pay a lot of money to get this much entertainment elsewhere. "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:38 PM:

" I'm trying to behave Billie. :-( "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 4:48 PM:

" On behalf of father-bob and myself; I would like to apologize for this immature and senseless display. Even if bob's dad can beat my dad up. "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 5:05 PM:

" Oops again! I posted a response to "Question" on this site when it should have been on another one. Dumb me! Dumb me!! She can't spell and now she can't read.What ever shall I do?:-7 "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 5:21 PM:

" Wow, I'm getting dizzy. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 6:32 PM:

" hang on Dohbaugh.....it is a little dizzying today. Doh is so rabbid trying to spin posts all over the net he's got things in a whirlwind...i love it when he gets worked up this way! "

ItsJustDave wrote on Oct 11, 2007 6:37 PM:

" Doh": your definitions of 'bob' failed to include classic colloquiallisms.. To 'bob' also includes to try to snatch dangling, or not-so-dangling, items with one's mouth. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 6:51 PM:

" so dave are you homophobic? "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 7:10 PM:

" Dave LOL!!!!!!! BBBWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 7:11 PM:

" Father-bob "so dave are you homophobic?" - gee bob, who wants to know? "

ItsJustDave wrote on Oct 11, 2007 7:14 PM:

" It's your dirty little mind that connected my post to homsexual activity. 'Phobia' means 'afraid' . No, I'm not afraid, not at all. I'll never tap your foot in an airport restroom. Are you 'Republicanphobic'? Howzabout "Waraphobic"? I'm also not 'illegalMexicanImmigrantphobic' "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 7:29 PM:

" then you like men? i don't know any other reason for the double entendre. "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 7:31 PM:

" ("I'll never tap your foot in an airport restroom") LOL!!! Oh dave......hahahaha! You're whippin my a55 tonight bud! LOL!! "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 7:41 PM:

" Hey Billie, I think we're going to have to break out a bucket of cold water, what do you think? "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 7:50 PM:

" Dohbaugh- Get the bucket and I'll meet ya! You'll have to carry it though. I'm afraid I'll spill all the water out of it because I'll be laughing so hard. "

father bob wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:24 PM:

" " It's your dirty little mind that connected my post to homsexual activity.................obviously you meant it to mean more than what you were saying. since you didn't reply we can assume.............1.) you like men 2.) you are republican 3.) you like guys with big guns. "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 8:42 PM:

" bob - lighten the hell up already! Geezuz! "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 9:27 PM:

" fatherbob-you described ME almost to a T! Change the Republican to an Independant and you've got it bud! Lol! "

Doh wrote on Oct 11, 2007 9:43 PM:

" Billie - LMFAO!!!!!!!! Good lord! I hope the kids aren't reading this! LOL!!! big guns!!!!!!!! Christ-on-a-bike!!!! "

Billie Brant wrote on Oct 11, 2007 10:54 PM:

" Now Doh, In the terminology of weight lifter's big guns means big biceps! I do lift free weights. Gotta try and stay in shape ya know!...It's been fun tonight! LOL! "

Early Bird wrote on Oct 12, 2007 5:27 AM:

" Driving down the road yesterday, I heard something that really upset me. I was listening to a noted conservative on talk radio person, and the subject was the treatment of captured enemies in Iraq. Not only was he justifying the currents means of interrogation, that have been called into question, he was advocating that we do what ever it takes to extract information from them. I was all sort of reminiscent of the stories I heard as a kid about the German Nazis and the Japanese prison camps. Is this what we have become? Are there no limits in some people mind. I remember the outcry a couple of years ago when Senator Durbin compared some of the things that were going on to some of the similar actions taken by the Nazi's during WW ll. If memory serves me right, Durbin was comparing the tactics to the one used by the Nazis, and of course the right wingers cried that Durbin was calling our troops Nazis. Durbin, to my disappointment, later apologised. It seems that the new justification is we will do anything it takes if it will save American lives. I too want Americans lives saved, but not at the cost of turning our society into barbarians. As the only remaining super-power in the world, we have a responsibility to set an example. For anyone who cares to respond to this, please leave your comments aside about me being a left wing radical. Those who follow this site, know that I am not. We are in Iraq, and must finish the job, I just hope we don't turn into butchers like the radicals that we're are fighting over there. "

The Question wrote on Oct 12, 2007 10:19 AM:

" Who are going going to believe — U.S. troops or Blackwater mercenary no-bid thugs? ••• BlackwaterUSA guards shot at Iraqi civilians as they tried to drive away from a Baghdad square on Sept. 16, according to a report compiled by the first U.S. soldiers to arrive at the scene, where they found no evidence that Iraqis had fired weapons. "It appeared to me they were fleeing the scene when they were engaged. It had every indication of an excessive shooting," said Lt. Col. Mike Tarsa, whose soldiers reached Nisoor Square 20 to 25 minutes after the gunfire subsided. His soldiers' report -- based upon their observations at the scene, eyewitness interviews and discussions with Iraqi police -- concluded that there was "no enemy activity involved" and described the shootings as a "criminal event." Their conclusions mirrored those reached by the Iraqi government, which has said the Blackwater guards killed 17 people. The soldiers' accounts contradict Blackwater's assertion that its guards were defending themselves after being fired upon by Iraqi police and gunmen. Tarsa said they found no evidence to indicate that the Blackwater guards were provoked or entered into a confrontation. "I did not see anything that indicated they were fired upon," said Tarsa, 42, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment of the 2nd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division. He also said it appeared that several drivers had made U-turns and were moving away from Nisoor Square when their vehicles were hit by gunfire from Blackwater guards. ***** How's that old judgment of yours, Doh? Still withheld, is it? "

Doh wrote on Oct 12, 2007 11:41 AM:

" Tricky Dicky Turbin's (June 2005) speech ON THE SENATE FLOOR: "On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. ..... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor. If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners." ============ Yeah, I remember the horror stories of the lack of air conditioning in the Nazi concentration camps. Tell me Early Bird, do you think our troops walking the streets of Baghdad in full battle dress with body armor are encountering temperatures well over 100 degrees? Pol Pot, though, loved to turn up on the AC on his dissenters, that monster! Oh, and then there was the notorious use of the "Notorious B.I.G." rap music in the Soviet gulags. GOD WE ARE MONSTERS!!!! But hey Early Bird! You're not a Far-Left kinda guy- oh no no. Not at all. But okay, I'll play. From now on; I want to be referred to as a middle-of-the-road pragmatic Democrat. And I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist on that. "

Doh wrote on Oct 12, 2007 2:15 PM:

" How's my judgement Question? It certainly does look like there is a real possibility that Blackwater agents may have illegally murdered innocent Iraqi's. But I still want to see what a final investigation says. I seem to recall the hasty conclusions that you reached about some Marines in Haditha. Do recall that Question? And (assuming that there was a crime in this incident) how did the Iraqi government manage to pull off an accurate investigation so quickly if that government is hopelessly in shambles? How did they pull that rabbit out of their hat? And when are you going to post an apology for condemning those Haditha Marines who were later exonerated? "

attainedage wrote on Oct 12, 2007 3:22 PM:

" EB, you kinda remind me of Cassius Clay, before he converted his draft-dodging axx over to Islam as a Conscientious Objector of all things - with a deadly weapon attached to the end of each of his arms. He used to say 'fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee'. You sneak in here at the crack of dawn, do your little sting thing, and then dance away as if you've just pronounced the final word on an issue. **** Would you mind providing some facts to back up your assertion that it's now official USA war policy to follow Nazi torture guidelines? How do you skip from the words of "a noted conservative" talk show host (whom you failed to identify by the way) to the absurd assumption that "we will do anything it takes if it will save American lives"? **** There have been a lot of over-the-top criticisms coming from folks on your side (Durbin, Kerry, Murtha, etc) about our troops’ torturous and murderous behavior in the field, with almost all proven wrong. When you can sting us with facts, bring it on. Until then, tune into Air America – much more your style. "

Early Bird wrote on Oct 13, 2007 6:40 AM:

" Thank you for the compliment, fella. To be compared to the greatest heavyweight fighter in history is quite flattering. I would like to correct you though, it was actually "float" like a butterfly not "fly". It would seem that if you are going to quote a famous person, you should at least use the right words, but then again perhaps you are getting mixed up again, as you so often do. Being as you are so concerned with draft-dodgers, are you aware of how many of them are in this administration? I really have to question the wisdom of discussing draft-dodging when defending the particular bunch now in control of the White House. And as far as sneaking in here early in the morning, don't you really think I should be the one to decide when I post messages. If you see that as sneaking, then I would say you are the one with a problem. In addition, perhaps you need to slow down and actually read what I post, since you seem so obsessed with my comments. I was merely commenting on the remarks I heard by one of the right wingers I heard on the radio, as to the fact that he felt anything was justified when it came to extracting information. Do you get it now? Since this administration has been all over the place with it's policies, I really don't know what our policies regarding this issue are. Do you? You seem to think that I see myself as wanting to have the last word, or that my thoughts are, as you say, the final word on an issue. I really don't know where you get that idea. My thoughts are just that, my thoughts. Could I not make the same claim towards what you post? You somehow have gotten the mistaken idea that I consider my ideas superior to what others say. Of course I post what I think, don't you? As you should be aware of, anyone can post what they think, and anyone is welcome to respond, and that's the way it works on this site. Your immature and playground like " bring it on" taunts don't impress me at all. And as to what I listen to on the radio, I appreciate your concern, but I think I'll make that decision. I'm really starting to think of you as my own personal groupie. And lastly for my friend, Doh. Of course I realize that my post riled you, as does anything that criticises this war, due to your position that the military and our troops and their actions are always above criticism, no matter what they do. Your choice to think of me as a radical lefty is fine with me, because I have come to the conclusion that far left radicals are the only ones not totally satisfied with what is going on in Iraq, at least in your mind. "

harry wrote on Oct 13, 2007 12:20 PM:

" Once again, every post has to turn into political finger-pointing and name calling. Regardless of whether or not this was an attack on innocent civilians, or a defensive tactic - the Blackwater employees are in Iraq for one reason - MONEY. Lots, and lots of tax-payer money. Somebody is getting rich off this deal, and almost every other contractor deal in Iraq. That somebody is a group of politicians. We'll never be able to figure it out, but somebody is getting paid - or their relatives are getting paid. That is the way the U.S. Government works - both sides, Republican and Democrat - and all levels of government. "

father bob wrote on Oct 13, 2007 5:16 PM:

" very interesting today the banana man said "we needn't become isolationists or protectionists"...................does that mean he's hidden his pickup from GMAC? "

father bob wrote on Oct 13, 2007 5:38 PM:

" Early Bird wrote on Oct 13, 2007 6:40 AM: " Thank you for the compliment, fella. To be compared to the greatest heavyweight fighter in history is quite flattering. I would like to correct you though, it was actually "float" like a butterfly not "fly". ................Thanks EB for the correction....AA and Doh most generally quote each other in suppoet of nothing. "

attainedage wrote on Oct 13, 2007 6:18 PM:

" Actually, EB, I never thought of Cassius Clay as the greatest anything, but no matter, you did, so that's all that matters. To me, he was a draft dodger, and nothing else! I've never had any use for anyone who dodged the draft - no matter how they did it. (By the way, Bush served in the military. Are you confused or what?) Just to inflame you further, I'll say this. Just my opinion (so I know it doesn't count), no one should serve as Commander in Chief if they haven't honorably served in the military. Here's another one: every citizen of the USA should serve in the military for 6 years immediately after high school graduation. **** I knew a guy from Mattoon who attended EIU just to get a 'student' deferment, then got married in order to get a 'marriage' deferment, and then the sob actually got his wife pregnant in order to qualify for the so-called 'kid' deferment." I was glad to see all of that really, because I wouldn't have wanted to serve with the sissy anyway. I look at the guy today and laugh. He's still married to the hag, but he's been the most unhappy guy I've known for the last 40-some years. Ha! By the way, you're right about the 'float' part. **** Speaking of dodging, I guess you were trying to be clever in avoiding answering my challenge. Here it is again: (you said "we will do anything it takes if it will save American lives". There have been a lot of over-the-top criticisms coming from folks on your side (Durbin, Kerry, Murtha, etc) about our troops’ torturous and murderous behavior in the field, with almost all proven wrong. When you can sting us with facts, bring it on.) So, where are your facts????? What is the name of the so-called talk show conservative? Or are you just spreading more shxt around and trying to stink up the whole place like you usually do? stfu, libtard! "

Doh wrote on Oct 13, 2007 7:59 PM:

" Umm, Early Bird - Do you remember the horror stories of the lack of air conditioning in the Nazi concentration camps? Do you think our troops walking the streets of Baghdad in full battle dress with body armor are encountering temperatures well over 100 degrees? Did Pol Pot turn up on the AC on his dissenters? Did the Soviets use that cruel and inhuman tactic of *gasp* loud Rap Music? And when Early Bird, have I ever said that the military and our troops and their actions are always above criticism, no matter what they do? Oh and- there's no need to be disappointed in Tricky Dicky Turbin, because he never really apologized. And I really am a moderate Democrat. Really. "

Doh wrote on Oct 13, 2007 8:04 PM:

" Early Bird- did I ever say I was totally satisfied with what is going on in Iraq? "

The Question wrote on Oct 14, 2007 5:31 AM:

" Fresh accounts of the Blackwater shooting last month, given by three rooftop witnesses and by American soldiers who arrived shortly after the gunfire ended, cast new doubt Friday on statements by Blackwater guards that they were responding to armed insurgents when Iraqi investigators say 17 Iraqis were killed at a Baghdad intersection. The three witnesses, Kurds on a rooftop overlooking the scene, said they had observed no gunfire that could have provoked the shooting by Blackwater guards. American soldiers who arrived minutes later found shell casings from guns used normally by American contractors, as well as by the American military. The Kurdish witnesses are important because they had the advantage of an unobstructed view and because, collectively, they observed the shooting at Nisour Square from start to finish, free from the terror and confusion that might have clouded accounts of witnesses at street level. Moreover, because they are pro-American, their accounts have a credibility not always extended to Iraqi Arabs, who have been more hostile to the American presence. The Kurds, who work for a political party whose building looks directly down on the square, said they had looked for any evidence that the American security guards were responding to an attack, but found none. “I call it a massacre,” said Omar H. Waso, one of the witnesses and a senior official at the party, which is called the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. “It is illegal. They used the law of the jungle.” Many of the American soldiers were similarly appalled. "

Early Bird wrote on Oct 14, 2007 8:26 AM:

" Again, you distort my words, fella. I was questioning a right wing radio host's justification of torture, not any official government policies. Insert any name you like, because they all use the same inane talking points. You ongoing insistence that I tell you who I heard is rather amusing, and seems to infer that I just made it up. I'll let that one annoy you for a while. Now read this real slow, it was his comments and not any government policies I was questioning. The draft dodging comments referred to the BUNCH in the White House, and not just Bush. I am well aware that Bush sort of served in the guard, but I won't go into all of that for now. I do appreciate your telling us what you think of the VP too. I have a suggestion for you: why don't you try to get your thoughts together before you post, instead of posting your knee jerk reactions. You seem to have a lot of admiration for Doh, so perhaps you need to see how he posts, and you might get some ideas of how to get your point across. Actually read what is posted next time. Your are so easy. And the stfu and libtard comments were really mature of you, they really help make your point, don't they? Actually they serve to support my theory that you are probably the most ignorant and immature poster on this site. Remember now, read every thing real slow and think for at least 5 minutes before you respond to this. "

Early Bird wrote on Oct 14, 2007 8:37 AM:

" No, Doh, you did not. My only point was that you seem to want to jump down the throat of anyone who dares to criticise the military or this war. Often times you resort to personal attacks and name calling with those that dare to disagree with you. Certainly there are those that have done the same to you also. Your position seems to be that you want to put everyone in the for or against camp when it comes to this war. I have been posting on this site for quite a while and that's the way it looks to me anyway. "

Doh wrote on Oct 14, 2007 11:48 AM:

" Well now Question, if the case against Blackwater is getting stronger, then that proves that the Iraqi government is developing into a cohesive self-reliant sovereign body since it was capable of conducting a fast, efficient, and accurate investigation of the affair; something you said was impossible. It looks like you just stepped in your own verbal diarrhea, Question. Yet you continue on down your road without acknowledging the fact that your shoes stink to the high heavens. Oh, and speaking of your verbal diarrhea, when can we expect your apology for condemning those innocent Haditha Marines? "

The Question wrote on Oct 14, 2007 12:19 PM:

" And here's today's humorous headline: Blackwater chief welcomes FBI probe "

Doh wrote on Oct 14, 2007 4:55 PM:

" ("And here's today's humorous headline: Blackwater chief welcomes FBI probe") - Oh Really, Question? Would you prefer we forget about all this "due process" nonsense and jump right to the guilty verdict of the Blackwater agents? It's too bad the Blackwater contractors aren't Jihadists; then you would be wetting your pants and demanding that they get their day in court. But since they're Americans "Scr#w’em and hang’em high" huh Question? That's quite a double standard you're carrying around genius. So when can we expect your apology for condemning those innocent Haditha Marines? "

Doh wrote on Oct 14, 2007 5:14 PM:

" Early Bird – my latest contention with you is specifically based on this statement of yours - (“I remember the outcry a couple of years ago when Senator Durbin compared some of the things that were going on to some of the similar actions taken by the Nazi's during WW ll. If memory serves me right, Durbin was comparing the tactics to the one used by the Nazis, and of course the right wingers cried that Durbin was calling our troops Nazis. Durbin, to my disappointment, later apologised.”) – You fully endorsed Tricky Dicky Turbin’s slanderous statements towards our troops. That is a Far-Left position in my book. And Far-Left is the only name I’ve called you. Now I’m asking you to justify those ridiculous and historically inaccurate statements of Turbin’s. You condoned them. Now kindly back them up. "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 14, 2007 5:52 PM:

" Hey Doh, looks like your friend thinks the only one who should be able to be president is someone who has served in the military. Seems like I recall you taking a different position on that a few months ago. What do you think? Should the qualifications for president be changed to only allow veterans to be president? Of course I'm being facetious , and I was only trying to point out some of the inane ideas you see on here. Speaking of silliness, it looks like EB and attainedage are going at it hot and heavy and it doesn't look like either one of them is going to give an inch. My money is on EB. Remind you of any other feud? Ah, the joys of the Internet..... "

Doh wrote on Oct 14, 2007 6:15 PM:

" ("Hey Doh, looks like your friend thinks the only one who should be able to be president is someone who has served in the military. Seems like I recall you taking a different position on that a few months ago. What do you think?') - Dohbaugh, I think that limiting the Presidency to Military personnel would limit the already minuscule pool of candidates to an even smaller group, while excluding some potentially brilliant and capable leaders...... And if you and I could come to a truce; I have no doubt E.B. and Attainedage can do the same. LOL! It's all good! "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 14, 2007 6:47 PM:

" Miniscule pool of candidates? That had to be the understatement of the year, Doh. It seems that all the pundits, and Fox news of all places have all but anointed Hillary as the next president. As I have said this before, if Hillary and Obama team up, I don't think the can be beat. This of course is not an endorsement on my part, only a prediction. Personally I like McCain, but after what the Bush people did to him, I don't think the Republican party is going to get behind him. Who ever gets the Republican nod, will suffer from the dissatisfaction so many have for Bush. This seems unfair, but is probably a political reality. "

Doh wrote on Oct 14, 2007 10:07 PM:

" Dohbaugh- Tricky Dick Durbin thinks that Obama will win the Iowa Caucus. If that happens, expect the Clinton camp to go after BarryO with every secret dossier they’ve got. And I’ve heard rumblings that the Cackling Hag will definitely pull out the long knives on him. But besides that, Obama is far too inexperienced and too much of a dove for the Clinton ticket. Once Hillary secures the Democrat nomination, she will take on a more hawkish stance for the general election. She will want to have some military-cred. To that end- I predict Wesley Clark as her VP. I would almost bank on it. I would definitely take McCain over Clinton anyday. If Hillary does make it to the White House, I think the Left will be surprised and shocked at her foreign policy stance. For the Republican to win the GOP nomination; he’s going to have to back the Iraq war and strongly oppose Bush’s record on immigration and out of control spending. And in the general election he will need to go after Hillary’s ever-changing positions on virtually every issue she’s ever addressed. You know, that famous Clinton “Triangulation”. "

Early Bird wrote on Oct 15, 2007 5:02 AM:

" Sorry Doh, I won't denounce Durbin's comments. As far as backing them up, I can't, as I wasn't there to see what he saw. Were you there? I remember that he compared some of the tactics that he saw to the tactics use in Nazi Germany, and the radio fanatics went nuts and claimed he was calling our troops Nazi's. I'm sure this won't satisfy you, but it's the best I can do. I stand by my claim that you seem to go a little ballistic towards anyone who dares to speak out on anything they see wrong about this war. You continue to prove that on a daily basis. By the way, I was there to welcome the troops home a few days ago, were you? I arrived at the airport at 5:30 only to find they had already left. I went straight to the Mattoon armory, where I waited until they came trickling in from the ceremonies. I personally shook hands with several of them and thanked them for their sacrifices. Does that sound like the actions of a left wing fanatic, which you seem to think I am. "

Dohbaugh wrote on Oct 15, 2007 7:21 AM:

" You could be right, Doh. Remember how the Bush camp destroyed McCain after he upset Bush in New Hampshire? It seems that Hillary has surrounded herself with` people just as vicious as Bush did. I still think Hillary will eventually pick Obama as her running mate, and he will accept. Historically VP's are chosen for their ability to draw votes, and not for their political philosophy. A couple of examples that come to mind are when JFK chose Johnson in order to insure the southern vote, and Reagan chose Bush 41 to garner votes from the moderate to liberal wing of his party. This strategy proved to be successful in both of these cases. Clark would make more sense to me too, but I think it will be based on who can assure the most votes, and I think Obama can deliver minority votes in massive numbers. Clark never seemed to impress many people despite his magnificent military career. Yup, I'll stick with Obama and you stick with Clark, and we'll see who is right. Of course a lot of things could change and we both could be wrong. Strange things occur when it comes to politics. "

The Question wrote on Oct 15, 2007 7:47 AM:

" You know, Doh, I would love it if Blackwater was subject to due process. Unfortunately, the Bush administration forced the Iraqis to declare U.S. mercenaries immune from criminal prosecution and therefore above the rule of law and due process. The Bush fascists did this to enable their Blackwater thugs to commit exactly the kind of atrocities they have committed. When you tell mercenary thugs that they can murder anyone they want without fear of punishment, it’s quite easy to predict what will happen next. "

coonbug wrote on Oct 16, 2007 9:59 AM:

" I say no more snooping with out following the Bill of Rights to the letter. The Senate Intelligence Committee could draft a bill this week that includes relief for the carriers. The administration is seeking blanket immunity, which would extend to anyone sued for assisting the government -- not just telecom carriers -- in its post-Sept. 11 surveillance programs. “Amendment IV: Warrants and searches. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I say NO to the Blanket Immunity for relief carriers. They need to know that if they mess up and don’t follow the Constitution’s Bill of Rights, they can and will be indicted in the court of law. Write your congressman/woman or senator here: Go to map of U.S. and pick your State. It will show you your representatives and senators. Click on their name and SEND a message. http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issuesaction/letters/ Coonsey's View http://www.freewebs.com/coonsey/ "

longtimegone wrote on Oct 18, 2007 9:32 AM:

" haliburto ownes blackwater. "

Cognitus wrote on Oct 22, 2007 11:04 PM:

" "Attainedge" wrote a week ago that **** I knew a guy from Mattoon who attended EIU just to get a 'student' deferment, then got married in order to get a 'marriage' deferment, and then the sob actually got his wife pregnant in order to qualify for the so-called 'kid' deferment." I was glad to see all of that really, because I wouldn't have wanted to serve with the sissy anyway. I look at the guy today and laugh. **** Sounds like a perfect description of Dick Cheney to me. Was that the intention or did he describe Dick by accident????? "

Cognitus wrote on Oct 23, 2007 4:59 PM:

" "longtimegone" is wrong; Halliburton does NOT own Blackwater. Halliburton once owned KBR, but either spun it off or sold it.*************************** The following is from today's NY Times: "At the same time, a government audit expected to be released Tuesday says that records documenting the work of DynCorp, the State Department’s largest contractor, are in such disarray that the department cannot say “specifically what it received” for most of the $1.2 billion it has paid the company since 2004 to train the police officers in Iraq...... But in presenting its recommendations to Ms. Rice in a 45-minute briefing on Monday, the four-member panel found serious fault with virtually every aspect of the department’s security practices, especially in and around Baghdad, where Blackwater has responsibility." **************** This study showed DynCorp had charged the State Department $169,000 in labor costs for which the laborers were never paid. They simply "invented" laborers and charged for their "invented" labor. A spokesman for DynCorp brushed it off, said that was "trivial" compared with the $1.2 billion DynCorp has received from contracts. DynCorp purchased a $1.2 million XRay scanner which was never used -- but State paid for, put up DynCorp officials in luxury hotels for $387,000 when simple government quarters were available. And overcharged for $108,000 in business travel that was never made. George's friends are getting on the gravy train just in case it might leave the station without them in November, 2008. "