" See, I told you. A hissy fit is a hissy fit, no matter if it's hidden in inane humor. "

" Alcohol is a mind altering drug. Alcohol is the number one drug problem in the country, that is, when you measure all the costs associated with it's use. Advocating legalizing teen age consumption is not only stupid, it is irresponsible. If Harry would bother to discuss this with anyone in the addiction field, he might find out why his ideas don't make sense, but I'm sure he won't, and he will continue to throw a fit every time a teen bust takes place. I sometime think Harry's solutions to societies problems are limited to bumper sticker slogans, and lame humor ramblings, which for the most part, are not appreciated by many of the readers of his drivel. "

" EB, you should change your name to Karnack the Great. How else would you know that Harry would write such "drivel" (yeah, Dohbaugh, glad to see we agree on that!). If he truly cared about the issue, he might have done just a teeny-weeny bit of research on the effects of alcoholism--and not just on society in general, but what is does to families, individuals, and these very teenagers he speaks of. As in the past, Harry mixes peaches, apples and oranges, thinking that they're all the same issue. If Harry truly believes in these "bumper sticker" issues (thanks DB), then why doesn't he go to Washington or just start in Springfield and work to change these unjust laws? Oh, but then again, who would listen? Like me, they'd be lost after the opening statement. "

" I don't care much for this piece Harry. This subject I don't find much humor in at all.... It raises some argueable points such as citizens between 18 and 21 being able to do everything else legally such as marry without parental permission, sign contracts, vote, serve in the military, but yet are denied the right to have a drink legally. I still have mixed feelings about the drinking issue. Denying a young man or woman who has joined the military and has in some instances put their lives on the line,some of whom have been wounded in defense of their country and yet are not allowed to have a beer in their home town tavern or any tavern for that matter, bother's me a little.Yet, how are we supposed to allow these folks to imbibe and do it legally? Are we going to require them to flash their military ID's at the door? Fake ID's can be made. I wonder if it's a federal offense to fake a military ID card? It probably is.Is this privilege going to be for active duty personnell only? If this is allowed, those not falling into this catagory are going to be screaming about discrimination. Perhaps they are right about that. How are we supposed to know if a person 18-21 is mature enough to do all the things I mentioned earlier and also drink? How are we to know if they are not? There are plenty of "over 21's" who aren't mature in any of the afore mentioned catagory's either. So far I don't know of any litmus test that will prove or disprove a person's ability to handle these situations. As a parent and now grandparent I am very concerned about underage drinking and drug use that seems to be of epidemic porportions! Now, lest anyone think I'm pointing a holier than thou finger at the kids who drink while underage, I'm not. I did my share in my "not legal" days, but not much. I simply didn't like the taste of the stuff back then as I enjoy a cold beer now, so I didn't imbibe much. If I did, it was more of a "everyone does it" type of thing and found myself caught up in the moment occasionally. I was guilty by association though, so I can't enter a "not guilty" plea. Maybe most over 21's that support the drinking age now in effect,are simply wanting to "err on the side of caution" and try and protect our young people. Too bad it doesn't work, because they are going to do it anyway. Does this mean I approve? No, but it's a fact of life. I don't have the answer, and it seems as though no one else does either. Not drinking responsibly at ANY age can be deadly. That's also a fact. "

" Harry, like you, I have never understood the inconsistency of how we apply age-related rights and privileges and obligations in the USA. I’ve witnessed the maturity levels of thousands of 18 to 21-year-olds in my lifetime. I am qualified to attest to the fact that not all kids mature at the same pace. Since we haven’t yet developed a reliable psychological test to measure maturity, we simply have to throw them out of the nest at some point to see if they can fly. Some won’t make it, most will. Crude, but effective. Whatever age we decide is the appropriate age of fledging, let that age be applied consistently. It's absolutely ludicrous arbitrary and incongruous to prohibit an 18-year-old soldier any rights or privileges granted to any other U.S. citizen. "

" Got a point if you are old enough to fight and die for your country should be able to drink. I was 18 when i enter the service. and was served at two bars in my home town of Montrose,il. Owner said If I can fight for country should be old enough to drink. Thanks X Marine "

" Tom and markray, I find the fact that a veteran or active duty military personnell under the age of 21 unable to buy a drink a little hypocritical considering them being old enough to join the military in the first place and perhaps having served in a combat zone on top of it. But, how are we going to address this issue, keep the legal age at 21 and allow them to do it without the non-military citizens being allowed to do so? You know there would be a howl loud enough to be heard from here to Springfield without a PA system. I have a feeling most of the "hometown" bars are going to look the other way at those in the military or having been in it. Is this fair(legally ) as the law applies now to the other underager's? Nope, but I doubt if the bar owner's are going to care much about that. Most of the discharged are going to be old enough unless they have been injured and got an early out. Many years ago Tom, Toby wrote such a letter to the editor addressing this issue. He was ticked off that he, being a combat veteran having lost both legs in Vietnam and at the age of 20 was not legally allowed to buy a beer. There wasn't a bar in Charleston that refused him, but he was looking out for those who for one reason or another in other cities and towns who couldn't get served. He still felt that way until the day he died. I just don't know how to go about it, because I doubt the drinking age is going to be lowered any time soon if at all. It's a hot topic, 18 or 21. with no easy answers. "

" Billie, I think the answer to your question about the military being allowed to drink at age 18 is simple. If someone in the armed forces shows a military ID anywhere in the USA, they should be served, with the first one being on-the-house. Period. Sure, there's the possibility that the ID card could be a fake - but you were correct in your previous post, that would be a very serious federal offense! Since Durbin and Obama claim to support the troops, let's ask them to sponsor legislation to pass this privilege onto those who wear the uniform. "

" Billie, you said "I have a feeling most of the "hometown" bars are going to look the other way at those in the military or having been in it." We were in the Mattoon Legion a couple of weeks ago with our oldest. Everyone there knows she's in the Reserves, but they carded her anyway. I can't say this for sure, but I'm pretty sure that if she hadn't been 21, even with her military ID, she wouldn't have been served. I remember getting all the free beer we could drink in Vietnam, but back in the states, no way GI! If you had to be 21 to sign a contract for military service today (or at any other time in our history), I don't think we would have a military. If you can contract with the military at 18, you should be able to buy your first legal drink the same day. "

" Tom, Your proposal will never fly. There would be howls of discrimination from all over. Things will go on as they are, with the "locals" looking the other way for known military personnell and underage vets. If they are in uniform and happen to be out of town and not known to the locals, I'd bet most would be served. I just can't see the law changing. Is it still true that military personnell can still get a beer on post even if underage? I remember when I was dating the man whom I married (my ex now)in the early 60's, he(19 at the time) and other's were able to buy beer at Chanute AFB in Rantoul. It may have been what they called 3-2 beer at the time which is probably what they call "Lite" today.I remember being there with him in a large room and bottled beer was available. I'm just curious as to if that is still in practice. "

" I'm not saying that all places will look the other way, but it has happened. Maybe today with the tougher DUI laws establishments are being more careful, and that's not a bad thing at all in the long run. Although with the recent arrest of 80 students one wonders about it. All kinds of "worms" are going to be crawling out of this open can, no matter what anyone's stance is. It's a tough one, no matter how you look at it. "

" I agree that if you serve in the military you should be allowed to drink in a bar.......but.....as Billy said how can you say one can and one cannot. There would be a huge outcry of discrimination. And as everyone has said how can you tell who is and who is not ready? I know several people who are far over the age of 21 who should never be allowed in a bar not alone allowed to drink! LOL "

" Billie, well in all honesty, you're probably right about the howls (or whining) of discrimination. But I'm not sure the locals look the other way actually. I don't know the answer to the on-post 3.2 question. My guess is that's a thing of the past. By the way, it was always my understanding that the 3.2 is approximately the same percentage as most beer sold anywhere. The reason for the 3.2 designation was that in order for the military to make it available on-post, the brewery had to 'certify' that the brew was no more than 3.2% alcohol. I served with a guy who had worked at the PBR brewery in Peoria. He told me there was no difference in post beer and off-post beer - except for that 3.2 certification. Unfortunately, some of my buddies thought that, since it was only 3.2, they could drink a lot of it. After downing a few of them, they were always amazed at how strong that beer was "for 3.2". "

" Dohbaugh, I’ll challenge something you posted. You inferred that alcohol abuse would somehow be more of a problem in our nation if the legal consumption age were lowered to 18. To a certain extent, I agree with that; but most clinicians in the field state that Alcoholism, the disease, is the problem – not alcohol abuse in general. Please explain how this diagnosis is more costly at age 18 than it is at age 21. I agree with you that, obviously, the more ‘alcohol abuses’ we have, the higher the cost. But I will put forth the idea that if an 18-year-old has Alcoholism (whether it's diagnosed yet or not), they are likely to abuse alcohol well before age 21, whether or not it's legal. In other words, if one is predispositioned to Alcoholism, what difference does it make whether they're 18 or 21? **** The willful abuse of alcohol by anyone, regardless of age, is an issue separate from the issue of Alcoholism. Laws are already in place to address willful, illegal abuses for the current ‘under-age’ population just as they are with the current ‘of-age’ population. I suspect that the societal costs you reference have little to do with the illegal use of alcohol by minors. If the experts are right, you could say the societal costs of Alcoholism are very high and actually begin when the genes are formed, not at 18, not at 21. If we separate the issue of alcohol abuse from the far more serious issue of Alcoholism, Harry’s position makes a lot more sense, doesn’t it? "

" Leave the law the way it is. The best times I ever had drinking were before I was 21. If my buddies and I could’ve gotten into bars without the possibility of getting into trouble we wouldn’t have gone to so many house parties. We would have had to pay more for beer, all of the girls would have had to obey decency laws, we would have had to worry about getting too drunk and getting kicked out; basically we would have had to act like adults. After you turn 21 that magic evaporates over time and you realize that you’re just sitting in some dark room paying twice what you should for booze and talking to people you really don’t like all that well about things you wouldn’t care about if you were anywhere else. Let the kids be kids an extra three years. "

" Harry, where do you live??? I grew up on Wabash ave In Mattoon .Inow live about six blocks from Jerry's... How many times have you had a under age person choking, gagging, puckin, student (note not currrent war vet), that shoudn't been served in the first place, in your front yard?? What do you do when a drunk 19 year old is breakin out the widows on your car?? It wasn't 86 war vets that got busted.. And what happend at Jerry's wasn't an act of patriotism, It was simplely a crime.. "

" i feel your pain tk, i used to live on fourth street. there were many nights i had to listen to people puking and peeing outside my house.i even called the cops a few times when fights would break out or people were being loud and obnoxious but you're going to have that no matter the drinking age. i'm honestly kind of torn about the age issue. i can understand the whole "if they can vote and serve our country then why can't they drink" idea. but that should include everyone, not just military personnel. if you're going to go there, and you just have to flash your military ID to get a drink, how about you flash your voter resistration card to get an exception too? "

" The reasons for a person becoming an alcoholic can be varied. Two things are pretty well established, and they are that: heavy drinking over a sustained period can lead to the disease, and that people who drink for internal reasons (usually poor coping skills) are more likely to develop the disease. The results of drinking for internal reasons is often the culprit, and those who seek refuse in alcohol seem to have an accelerated pace in getting the disease. The whole issue then becomes more complicated when you throw in the genetic reality of predisposition. Another reality that comes into play is known as the 5/15 rule. Stated simply it says that a person is more likely to become an alcoholic after 15 years of heavy drinking (abuse) as an adult, 15 months as an adolescent, and 15 weeks as an preadolescent. This theory is accepted by most who work in the field of addictions. If people are more susceptible to the disease when they start drinking at an earlier age, doesn't it make sense to ban the use of alcohol by young people? Now, I will challenge your statement that most clinicians say the problem is alcoholism and not abuse. Alcoholism is usually the result of abuse, so how in the world would anyone think you could separate them?. I am not aware of any such theories that you have mentioned. I would be curious as to where you got your information. I do know that there are some DUI remediation programs that staff their businesses with people who have no training in addictions and have absolutely no substance abuse training or education. Perhaps you are getting your information from them? If so, your describing them as clinicians is a little off base. Some people operate under the false assumption that if their parents aren't alcoholic, they can drink all they want and not have a problem. As I stated earlier alcoholism is usually the result of heavy drinking over a sustained period and the onset of the disease is usually accelerated by early use, the earlier, the more rapid the pace of acceleration. I can't make it any clearer that there is definitely a correlation between early use and early onset. I have no idea of what experts you are referring to. I worked in the field of addictions for close to 20 years, and the experts I am aware of, say that more people become alcoholic through heavy use or abuse that those who are predisposed through genetics. Often times those who are predisposed don't drink at all, due to the fact that they have seen what terrible effects this disease can have on the family. You state that we need to separate the issue of alcohol abuse and alcoholism, but I'm afraid that can't be done, as they go together. Obviously, it's pretty easy for kids to get their hands on alcohol, but by lowering the drinking age, you only increase that ability and the results would be disastrous, in my opinion. I agree that the drinking age of 21 is rather arbitrary. In reality it should probably be 18 or 19 for females and 22 or 23 for males. Now I know this upsets people, but when you look at the maturation process, this makes sense. I some metropolitan areas, males are not allowed to buy alcohol unless they are 22 or 23 in some bars, due to the problems caused by young male drinkers, who are often not mature enough to drink alcohol. "

" If someone in the armed forces shows a military ID anywhere in the USA, they should be served, with the first one being on-the-house. Period. **** If someone who's a teacher shows an ID anywhere in the USA, they should be given free groceries. Period. If someone who's a fire fighter shows an ID anywhere in the USA, they should be given a free restaurant meal. Period. If someone who's a doctor shows an ID anywhere in the USA, they should be given a free set of golf clubs. Period. "

" No precognition skills were necessary to call this one, clumpton. After years of watching old Harry go bananas everytime the police crack down on teen drinkers, I certainly didn't have to use any extrasensory perception to predict Harry's reaction. While it would be nice to have those skills, I knew that Harry would not be able to pass this one up. He is a little predictable, and I noticed he attempted to hide his indignation, by using lame humor this time. I do have to wonder what our friend attainedage must have though upon reading it, though. I see that he challenged another poster for his thoughts, but sort of ignored my prediction, and if you remember he called my prediction, as to Harry's reaction on this issue, some sort of unfounded innuendo on one of the threads on this site. Normally I don't like to rub it in, but in this case I'm chuckling out loud over it. Thanks for noticing, clumpton, but rest assured, Carson's beloved character is safe from me, but I can't guarantee that the grandma bashing attainedage won't go after him too. Karnack would be getting on in age, and might be an easy target for any one who delights in bashing older folks, like our friend seems to do. "

" Here's a little secret, Billie. Drug use, while certainly too high, is not epidemic. In fact according to most usage reports, it like tobacco, is actually going down, but alcohol use on the other hand, is going up, and unfortunately too many people like Harry, view alcohol consumption as a right of passage. Here's another indisputable fact, and that is, that if people wait until they are adults to drink, the likelihood for alcoholism is greatly reduced. This again points to the advantages of leaving the legal drinking age at 21. I do see you point about service personnel being allowed to have a beer, and I know that if you aren't mature enough to handle military responsibilities, they will figure that out pretty fast any you won't last very long in uniform. I would have no problem in allowing current members of the military to be served. Those that advocate 18 as the general age, need to take into consideration that that would include a lot of high schoolers, do we we really want high school kids in the bars? We had that in Charleston at one time, and many of us remember all the problems associated with that. Especially home owners who got stuck picking up, and hosing the puke off of their sidewalks after the underage drinkers made their way home. For sure, vandalism, public urination and puking up beer is a right of passage, isn't it? I think the 21 year old entry age is helping to eliminate that. "

" I think the jury is still out as to whether or not the drinking age should be lowered; if one researches the subject, there is valid evidence to support keeping it at 21, as well as to support lowering it to 18 or 19. And there is definitely research on brain development that indicates the part of the brain that controls impulse and risk-taking behavior doesn't fully develop until into the early 20s with some people. With that in mind, why don't we make it illegal for young people to smoke, get pregnant, and go to war at age 18?. All of these come with significant risks to a young person's health or life. I say either lower the drinking age to 18 or 19 or postpone giving them the privileges and responsibilities of adulthood until the magic age of 21. That means they would also have the same protection under the law that minors have. If they aren't responsible or mature enought to drink, then don't hold them to the same level of accountability as adults 21 and over when it comes to breaking the law. And colleges should ease up on their disdain for "helicopter parents." They seem to think parents are hovering over their college-age students and getting in the way of their child's transition to college. The way the current law is, underage consumption and possession can be charged as misdemeanors, which means if the court system enforces the full penalty, these young adults will now graduate from college with a criminal record that could keep them from getting a job. Is that how we want to treat the students that make a bad decision because their brains aren't developed yet (says one theory)? In most cases, a bad decision by a college students ends up coming back to haunt the parents, as they are the ones who have to help their children pick up the pieces emotionally and financially. So don't blame parents for wanting to be involved in that transition from high school to college. I would love to see university researchers conduct a study of the blood alochol content of college underage drinkers in bars compared to the blood alcohol of those underage drinkers at house parties. Which situation supports the most out of control drinking environment? Are the studente better off in the bars? Also, I would like to see some research on how much money is being made from the underage drinking arrests, as fines seem to go from around $250 to $800. That means thet Jerrys bust will bring in a minimum of $20,000. Personally, I think the organization Choose Responsibility has the best idea: treat alochol consumption like learning to drive and establish drinking permits and graduated drinking laws. It might be worth a try, since nothing else seems to be working. "

" Dohbaugh, I know all too well the problems the abuse of alcohol can cause. My dad was a recovering alcoholic for well over 40 years until the day he died; once an alcoholic, always one. Although he never drank at work(he owned his own business) and it didn't interfere with it, he told me years later that the thought of having that first drink when he was through working for the day was lurking in the back of his mind all day. Dad simply couldn't drink! It was poison to him! He didn't start drinking until he was about 30, but it didn't take long to see he couldn't handle it. One was too many and a dozen weren't enough! I won't go into all the problems it caused our family, because the effects of alcohol abuse within any family are well known to everyone.... When I lived in Sheboygan Wisconsin in the early 60's they had what was called "beer bars" located outside the city limits. You had to be 19 to drink beer in these places. Now, if you were 19 you could be served beer in a bar within the city limits IF you were with a parent, guardian or spouse if the spouse was 21. I'm pretty sure this has gone by the wayside many years ago. I'm not sure, but I think the "beer bars" were decided upon in each county. Many times these places were quite a ways out of town, so you had young people driving to get to them. I'm pretty sure they are all gone now also... Things have changed so much since I was a young woman. I still remember when I was 18 I could legally go into a bar or liquor store and buy anything I wanted( in Illinois), while men had to be 21. I came home from Wisconsin for a visit a few weeks before my 21rst birthday, and the law had been changed to 21 for everyone.... I know the tendency toward alcoholism can be genetic. Thankfully, I didn't have a problem with it nor did my sister. She tried it and said everything tasted like couch syrup to her, so she didn't partake. I enjoy a few "cold ones" now and then usually when I'm with friends out for the evening enjoying the music of some of my favorite local bands, but I'm in control, not the other way around.... If for some reason a health issue would prevent me from ever having another one, it would not be a big deal.... One of these days the underage kids that think it's cool to get so wasted they aren't "leavin till they're heavin, pukin in the parking lot", and can't remember where they lost their shoes, and have "braggin rights" as to who got the drunkest, will grow up(if they live long enough). They'll realize it's much more enjoyable to have a few and not wake up with the "mother" of all headaches the next morning. I'm not saying I have never overindulged and have not been "blown away" but it's been years since I have. The "morning after" isn't worth it not to mention driving while in that condition. Older and wiser I guess. I don't want to see the age limit to enter an bar and not drink(come on!)restored to 19 here either. Too many problems associated with it. The issue of the military probably won't be solved either. "

" OK, Dohbaugh, you've convinced me. Change everything back to 21: voting, drinking, binding contracts (including military contracts). Done. Whoops, whose gonna defend the country? **** I’ve never attended a DUI remediation program, nor have I had the need to, thanks. **** I thought my comments on separating societal problems related to alcoholism (the disease) and other problems related to alcohol abuse (i.e., underage drinking, illegal transportation of alcohol, DUI, etc) were pretty straightforward. I’m not an expert in the field, and actually may not know much about it at all. I would assume, however, that there are some folks who work in the field of ‘addiction’ who just may want us to believe that everyone who ever abuses alcohol is just one step away from becoming an alcoholic. After all, isn’t that how they make a living – ‘defining’ and then treating alcoholism? Your comments on alcoholism being related to the age at which alcohol use first occurs surprises me. Isn’t that kind of a chicken and egg argument? How do you explain that young people, in Europe for example, consume alcohol at very early ages, yet as far as I know, Europe has a lower alcoholism rate than we do? **** I admit, I don’t know much about the subject; but I do know it’s quite possible, in spite of your usual ‘important authoritarian’ tone, you may know less than I do. To be fair to you, let’s just call it even. "

" Call it even? After almost 20 years in the field of addictions, I'm not quite ready to concede anything to someone who obviously knows very little about alcohol and alcoholism. What I posted was accepted information in the field, and if you found it authoritarian, that's your problem. I have no intention of debating this subject with you, because it's obvious you don't have a clue. Having said that, I'm sure there are subjects that you know a lot more about than I do, but addictions is not one of them. If you would bother to do the research, you will find that there is a reason behind the fact that the US, as well as the old soviet bloc nations, has a high rate of alcoholism. I'm not going to bother to try to explain it to you, because you would not believe, or comprehend it, in the first place. If you had read my post with an open mind, you would have read that I said abuse, over a sustained period, often leads to alcoholism. I know of know one who claims that anyone who has ever abused alcohol is one step away from alcoholism. Currently it is thought that approximately 10 percent of adults suffer from some sort of alcoholism, and if everyone who ever abused alcohol became alcoholic, that figure would probably be over 90 percent. I think you used your usual style of pulling stuff out of your a$$ with most of your reply. Perhaps if you went back and reread what I posted, you might understand it a little better. "

" You're absolutely right Billie. Alcoholism stays with you until the day you die. Recovery is based on a simple premise, and that is total abstinence. There are agencies that claim that they can teach someone to be a social drinker, but they have all been discredited. In fact there is a DUI remedial education program in Charleston that makes the same claim. I find it disgusting that they take people's money under false pretenses. Interesting that you should bring up your life in Wisconsin, in a topic centered on alcohol, because that's the state that is indirectly responsible for the nation wide 21 year old purchase laws. Several years ago, I was asked to speak at a statewide conference in Springfield on the topic of alcoholism, I guess they didn't know about my friend attainedage and of of his expertise on the subject, and another one of the featured speakers was from the Federal Department of Transportation. Using graphics and overlays, he showed the fatality rate throughout the country and the heaviest concentrations of highway deaths were along the borders of Wisconsin. This information was used in the efforts to raise the national purchase age to 21. By the way, Billie, I understand your comment about the pain that is caused by alcoholism, and in the addictions field, alcoholism is often referred to as a family disease, because it obviously effects the whole family. Thanks for sharing your story with us. "

" Oops! Sorry, Billie, I forgot to say that the states surrounding Wisconsin had raised their purchase age to 21, and a lot of kids were crossing over into Wisconsin, which stubbornly held onto the 19 yer old age laws, to get drunk, and were getting slaughtered on the highways along the Wisconsin borders. "

" Dohbaugh, I've heard the phrase"addictive personality" mentioned. Does this enter into a person perhaps becoming dependant on alcohol or other drugs? Is this a recognized diagnosis? It seems that conflicting medical reports come out on a regular basis anymore, with one "study" refuting the findings of a previous one. It's ok to drink coffee, then it's not, etc. You understand what I'm saying here. It gets confusing to the "lay"people...Does the combination of genetics and this addictive personality trait give some a "double whammy" when it comes to the abuse of drugs and alcohol? Sure seems like it would. The only addiction I have is to nicotine and boy is it hard to give up!! I've tried and failed so many times. I've tried "sanctioned" programs such as the American Lung Association program , complete with counseling available from them. I've tried going "cold turkey". I've tried the gum, the inhaler, and the drugs that are supposed to help and hypnosis. I've always been able to justify it to myself for one reason or another, why the programs didn't work. Oh Yeah! Smoking relieves my stress. Wrong! The stress is still there after I stubb out my butts. I don't want to gain weight. Oh Yes! I have all the excuses down pat. I guess my mindset has to be in a place where I really want to quit, or I'm forced to with a critical health issue. Smoking is pleasureable to me. I like it! The enjoyment I get supercedes all the reasons I KNOW I shouldn't smoke. Maybe one of these days I will be successful. I know it takes more than willpower to kick it. I just haven't been able to find the right combinantion yet of willpower and program. OR maybe I don't want to. I am a NICOTINE JUNKIE. "

" Dohbaugh, I can't figure out what it is about my posts that make you all 'bunchy'. You seem fixated. Why is it that you seem to take your own views of the world as totally serious, but everyone else's views are, well, subject to your judgment? **** Some of my first-hand knowledge of alcoholism comes from being married for over 20 years to an alcoholic. When our teenage kids began looking in the back rows of kitchen cabinets (behind the pots and pans) in the morning to see how much Mom had had to drink the night before, I finally filed for divorce. My ex is what is known, in some circles, as a 'functioning alcoholic'. I'm not as stupid as you'd like to think. **** I know there are all kinds of views on the subject, and I know that your field of work (addictions) is not a hard and fast science. In fact, there are plenty of opposing views as to the causes of alcoholism. I ran into a web site that may interest you. Here it is: http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ajtv2 "

" As two of our regular favorite, brilliant and articulate posters, Dohbaugh and attainedage lock horns here, let's notice that truly they agree, and also agree to disagree. One has professional experience and statistics and the other enough first hand knowledge to merit our attention. Attainedage, you have earned my compassion and respect with that last post. "

" I may have commented on your lack of understanding on certain subjects, but I don't think I said you were stupid, to the contrary, you seem quite bright, when it comes to subjects you are well versed in, attainedage. I believe it was you who, on more than one occasion, inferred that I might have a lack of gray matter. Fixated? I guess I could say the same for you. I did notice that we do seem to have one thing in common, and that is our aversion to the misuse of TIF funding. "

" Hi ya, Billie. Some subscribe to the "addictive personality" theory, personally I don't. I am of the school that alcoholism comes about from the sustained abuse over a time period, and the earlier one starts drinking, the quicker the onset of the disease. This is, again, why I am so opposed to the idea of lowering the bar entry age to 18 or 19, as some have suggested. Once teenagers get in the bar, they will be able to finagle alcohol. Nicotine is now recognized as one of the most addictive drugs out there, and as a recovering nicotine addict, I can sympathise with you. I haven't smoked for years, but I, like the recovering alcoholic, still crave the drug. I hate to tell you this but nicotine addiction, like alcohol addiction, is forever. No one ever becomes recovered, and they will always be in recovery. It can be done, but I won't tell you it's easy. It has to be something that you really want. The most effective smoking cessation program out there is the one conducted by the Coles county heath department. It's free, and I would like to suggest you contact them for information. "

" Why is it that we as a nation faces more alcohol related problems than other countries? Afterall we have the highest age limit compared to other countries. Do those who preach 21 as an age limit even pay to attention to how European nations have low drinking limits and face a fraction of the drinking problems we face. When are these people going to relize an age limit of 21 doesn;t work. Instead youngsters should be taught how to drink responsibly. Kids are going to get alcohol if they want so instead of letting it be a cool rebelious thing to do let em buy it and increase alcohol education. And increase the penalties for all age groups with drinking offenses. And if you don't believe me that other countries with legal drinking ages in the teens face fewer problems then look up the stats. "

" Actually the old Soviet Union bloc nations have a bigger problem with alcohol that we in this country do. There are a lot of theories as to why that is. One of them is that we look at drinking differently than most countries do. People who drink for internal as opposed to external reasons seem to have more problems too. If your going to compare the US with other countries why not compare the penalties for such thing as DUI's. In Bulgaria, a first time offense for DUI is automatic death by firing squad? Most countries are not nearly as tolerant about alcohol related crimes as we are. Think that might have an effect? I read the best article on world wide alcohol use several years ago, in National Geographic. I have kept that magazine and will post the dates when I find it. I think it addresses many of the issues that have been brought up on this site lately. The study of alcoholism and it's effect on the brain is really in it's infancy. We are learning more each year. "

" Tom A -- you said "It's absolutely ludicrous arbitrary and incongruous to prohibit an 18-year-old soldier any rights or privileges granted to any other U.S. citizen." Have you ever heard of the UCMJ? If not, Google it. You may be quite surprised. "