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St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Lee Enterprises

Monday, April 16, 2007 12:16 AM CDT
Letter: Are we looking for Jesus to return?

By RONALD CRESS, Strasburg

Happy Easter or not, some people in the U.S.A. don’t know what Easter means; that is sad. Well, they had another earthquake, 8.0, down south. A big wave hit, killing and leaving people homeless again. They said there was no warning, that was bad for them.

Jesus died for our sins and rose again, thank you God. Jesus is waiting and making things ready for him to come and get us. Are we looking for Him to come? Jesus gave us a lot of warning in the Bible. People, wake up, this is forever we are talking about! In heaven with Jesus, or in hell forever.

I pray this Easter, people wake up and turn to or come back to Jesus while there is still time. The day is coming soon, it will be to late.

One old song said it best. It’s too late to pray, it is judgement time now.

People with all the things they are doing in DC, Mideast, put in other god, and so on.

Remember, God made the flood to wipe out sin once; Sodom and Gomorah, they are still trying to find them. Our day is coming soon, are you ready?

The rapture is coming, I pray people wake up and turn back to Jesus and the Bible (KJV).

God the father, and the Holy Ghost, before it is too late. Jesus is the only way to heaven.

Time is running out, don’t wait too long to make up your mind. Happy Easter.

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Time is running out wrote on Apr 14, 2007 8:47 AM:

" This rapture stuff sure makes it hard to know whether to buy a new tv. Will I get enough enjoyment out of it to make it worth the cost? Or will I be swept up and away, only to see my beautiful plasma screen fall into the hands of the unsaved? Stupid rapture! "

Asking wrote on Apr 14, 2007 3:03 PM:

" What is the rapture? What scripture tells about it? "

Skeptic wrote on Apr 14, 2007 10:18 PM:

" Well, I knew some people -- not in Coles County I hasten to say -- who five years ago sold a flourishing business, sold their house and almost all their personal belongings and hurried to Israel because they wanted to be there when The Rapture came. I've not heard from them since. I guess they mis-calculated by at least 5 years..... So I suggest to the previous poster: go ahead and buy your TV, relax and enjoy the plasma screen. "

Answer wrote on Apr 15, 2007 1:27 AM:

" Ron, everyone knows what Easter is about, a big bunny and colored eggs. Makes perfect sense to me, why don't you get it? My question is what happens to the 7 or 8 billion humans that are not Christians? I guess they're just out of luck. You think the King James Version (which was changed at the whim and behest of King James of England in retaliation against the Roman Caholics) is the truth? The bible has been rewritten so many times that it likely bears little resemblance to the ancient texts. During the first 1500 years of the new testament, it was handwritten by scribes who often changed or added sections at their whim. Don't believe me, do just a little research and the truth will set you free. "

Not Scriptural wrote on Apr 15, 2007 6:25 AM:

" The rapture is not a scriptural teaching. Period. "

Judas Iscariot wrote on Apr 15, 2007 4:23 PM:

" To Answer, I've seen your research on the political debates. It looked like you were thoroughly out researched. "

The truth is..... wrote on Apr 15, 2007 6:26 PM:

" There is going to be a second coming of Christ and the Bible states events that will come to pass before He returns. We are witnessing some of the events the Bible talks about. No one knows when Christ will return to earth to take the Christians, but it will happen. We are all free to make our own decisions, live the way we want and make any purchase that makes us happy. "

Asking wrote on Apr 15, 2007 7:32 PM:

" What are the events before his coming? "

Events wrote on Apr 15, 2007 9:00 PM:

" The events are outlined in Matthew chapter 24. "

Really? wrote on Apr 15, 2007 9:10 PM:

" I didn't know Jesus spoke 16th century English. The KJV is exactly what is says - a VERSION, and a poor one at that. Many words are mistranslated and the meanings of many words are obscure and out of date. "

Final Analysis wrote on Apr 15, 2007 9:48 PM:

" 2Pe 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." Read the rest of this chapter. It's not what you or I think that counts, no matter how cleverly we may think we're expressing ourselves. What God thinks is what has always ruled, and always will. "

Mark wrote on Apr 15, 2007 10:12 PM:

" In Acts 2:16,17 Peter in his sermon on the Day of Pentecost said they were then living in the last days. "

Well Gee Whiz wrote on Apr 16, 2007 7:58 AM:

" I wonder who made that comment about Answer being out researched? I think we all know who that was, don't we? He's back and continuing to give himself compliments through his practice of using multiple names. Sad! "

gomez wrote on Apr 16, 2007 8:17 AM:

" this article sounds like the drunken ramblings of a scared person. EVERY person that i know, that has been involved in ordained religonshas suffered at the hands of that religon. not at the hands of man, or god, just the hand of the "ordained".just because a person does not choose too go to church, does not make them any less religious. i myself feel i dont need another MAN or WOMAN too tell me what the bible says.i can read, and if i have questions, i consult the source. not one of the pastors, or any other clergy, that have never met, or spoken with god or jesus. i can do that on my own. i dont have the inclination too expose myself too a bunch of judgemental, hollier than thou, self rightous people. i keep my religous beleifs too myself, as should others. you have the right to worship the kitchen sink, just dont try to make me do it too. as for the rapture, it has been said a million times before, and it brings too mind the guy on the corner, with the big sign, and the aluminum foil hat. you will have gray hair and ulcers if you continue too worry about everything on the planet. my point is that we all have a different opinion on how things are. i commend you for your heart-felt beliefs, just please stop trying too make it sound like the end of time. go get a samich, change the channel from the all disaster channel, and watch a baseball game. or even a childrens show. i dont know about any of you, but why do we call it worship, if all it amounts too is pure fear? i have heard "the wrath of god" and "vengance is mine sayeth the lord", but i dont believe that a god that loves us all, could take vengance on me, if he truly loved me. "

For Mark wrote on Apr 16, 2007 8:21 AM:

" Peter was referring to the last days of the JEWISH system of things, which ended in 70 CE when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Romans. It has parallel meaning for our time. "

Feasts wrote on Apr 16, 2007 9:13 AM:

" Since the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and the birth of the church all occured on the days of ancient Israeli feasts predicting those occurences (Feast of Passover, Unleavened bread, Firstfruits, and Pentacost), it makes sense that the rapture would occur on the day of that prhophetic feast as well, (Feast of Trumpets, today known as Rosh Hoshanah). Many believe scriptures indicate the rapture will be 2000 years after Christ lived, so look for it around September, 2029. So yes, buy your plasma TV, but buy it on sale, so you can donate the rest to some worthy cause, like to end hunger. On the other hand, it'll be a miracle if the human race lives that long. http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/wildlife/article2449968.ece "

Tom wrote on Apr 16, 2007 11:52 AM:

" The Bible does not mention the word "rapture" anywhere. When Jesus comes again he will not set foot on the earth according to the Bible. He has already set up His spiritual kingdom, the church, and He is reigning now in heaven at the right hand of God. When He comes both the righteous and the unrighteous will come forth from the graves (John 5:28,29). He is not coming to set up a kingdom. He is coming to deliver His kingdom, already here, back to the Father (I Corinthians 15:24). We will be caught up, all of us, to meet the Lord in the air when He comes (I Thessalonians 4:13-18). "

Tom wrote on Apr 16, 2007 12:15 PM:

" Mark, the last days referred to in Acts 2:16,17 is speaking of the last dispensation of time. There were three great dispensations, the Patriarchal(meaning father ruled), Mosaic or Jewish, and the Christian Dispensation or Gospel Age. Peter was saying the first two had passed and now they were beginning the last days, age or dispensation. "

Hey Tom wrote on Apr 16, 2007 12:23 PM:

" You need to study your Bible just a wee bit more. Yes, there is no such thing as a "rapture" but we will not be meeting Jesus in the air either. That scripture is applied to those who have a heavenly hope, when they are resurrected at death to be with Jesus. And you are also wrong about God's Kingdom, which happens to be the entire theme of the bible. Jesus has only begun to set up his kingdom, it will be fully realized here on earth after Armaggedon. "

Judas Iscariot wrote on Apr 16, 2007 12:25 PM:

" To- Well Gee Whiz- I made that comment and I stand by it. I don't know who you think I am, but I wouldn't be surprised if you are -Answer. What's really sad is that you have to defend yourself under another name. "

Kay wrote on Apr 16, 2007 12:38 PM:

" You all need to pay attention to Tom. He knows what he is saying. I will pray for those of you who do not believe and are not raising your children to believe. May God have mercy on your souls. "

Jon wrote on Apr 16, 2007 12:40 PM:

" If you want the truth read Revolations and then you will know. "

Salvati wrote on Apr 16, 2007 2:17 PM:

" Looks like we're all doomed, then--at least, my Bible doesn't have a book of "Revolations." "

For Kay wrote on Apr 16, 2007 2:22 PM:

" Tom is not teaching Bible truth....if you people listen to him you will DIE when Armaggedon comes. "

Answer wrote on Apr 16, 2007 3:24 PM:

" To Judas, I don't need to defend myself to you in anyway, nor have I, nor will I. I post under this and only this moniker. Have a happy eternity. "

Answer wrote on Apr 16, 2007 3:25 PM:

" To Kay, you will need to pray for the vast majority of the human race who do not believe in Christianity. Hope you pray silently or you're going to lose your voice. "

For Kay AGAIN wrote on Apr 16, 2007 3:38 PM:

" Why are my posts not being added?? Kay, Tom is not teaching you the truth about the Bible, so everyone reading this, do not listen to him! The rapture is not scriptural, God's Kingdom is ruling NOW, and the dead will be resurrected to EARTH after God's war of Armaggedon. All of this is scriptural, unadulterated TRUTH. "

ItsJustDave wrote on Apr 16, 2007 4:02 PM:

" Bumper sticker theology: One says "In case of Rapture, this car will be unmanned" . Another replies "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?" . Gotta love it. "

Judas Iscariot wrote on Apr 16, 2007 4:02 PM:

" Answer- Why don't you go ahead and share with us your research that shows that the bible has been rewritten so many times that it bears little resemblance to the ancient texts. I'm sure a lot of people here would like to see that. "

Tom wrote on Apr 16, 2007 4:53 PM:

" I have a heavenly hope, don't you? Please read again what I wrote earlier. In I Thess. 4:17 says "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, 'to meet the Lord in the air:' and so shall we ever be with the Lord." He is saying that those who died would not lose out and will even rise from the grave before those alive when He comes. The reason Paul speaks of those who are dead in Christ and doesn't mention those who are dead and not in Christ is because the New Testament letters were written to either churches or individuals who are believers and none were written to unbelievers. Proof that both the good and the evil ones will come forth from the grave when Jesus comes is given in His own words in John 5:28,29 where He says both will come forth at the same time, the same hour. "

Tom wrote on Apr 16, 2007 5:32 PM:

" I am quoting right from the Bible, word for word, so if you have a problem with the words of the Bible then your problem is with the Bible, not me. I only speak where it speaks. In case you missed it, I don't believe in the "rapture" because it is not found in the Bible. Jesus is "King of Kings and Lord of Lord's" (Revelation 19:16) so I do believe God has a kingdom now since if He didn't He would be a King without a Kingdom. God's Word doesn't speak of man being raised to walk on this earth. Instead, God says the works of His hands, such as the physical earth, shall "perish" (Hebrews 1:10,11). But of Himself, He says he "remainest" or continueth. Also, there will be no physical earth here on which to dwell. Peter wrote in II Peter 3:10,11 that "Jesus will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then, that all these things shall be dissolved." "

For Mark wrote on Apr 16, 2007 6:23 PM:

" Tom's explanation of "the great dispensation" is not correct, and is mumbo-jumbo. Peter was speaking of the last days of the Jewish system of things, which occurred in 70 CE. We are living in a parallel time, also known as the last days. You can read about that at 2 Timothy 3:1-5. "

Sorry Tom wrote on Apr 16, 2007 8:07 PM:

" Psalm 78:69; Psalm 104:5; Psalm 119:90; Ecclesiastes 1:4; The Earth is here FOREVER, and will not be destroyed. Psalm 37:11; Psalm 115:16; Isaiah 45:18; Man is to inherit THE EARTH,to RESIDE FOREVER UPON IT. The earth is not going to be destroyed. If you teach that, you are teaching lies, and going directly against the scriptures. Even Jesus Christ stated "the meek shall inherit THE EARTH." - Matthew 5:5. The scripture at 2 Peter is SYMBOLIC, not literal. The "earth" being destroyed is earthly human society alienated from God. Why would God contradict himself?Revelation 5:10 - the kings and priests are going to rule OVER THE EARTH. To say that God is not going to resurrect man to earth is absolutely, positively INCORRECT. The resurrection will happen ON EARTH. Only a select few will be resurrected to heaven, ones chosen by God himself. "

Student wrote on Apr 16, 2007 8:33 PM:

" You are telling what the Watchtower tells you. Tom is saying what the Bible says. "

Tom wrote on Apr 16, 2007 8:53 PM:

" It is ok for you to say I am not correct and I speak mumbo-jumbo. Words are only vehicles of communication and they only hurt us if we let them. I wear the "whole armor of God and have the shield of faith and I am able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked" (Ephesians 6:13,16). The Jewish law was nailed to the cross and was abrogated or done away according to Colossians 2:14-17. While there were Jews holding on to their old law of Moses it was no longer in force when Christ nailed it to the cross. "

Answer wrote on Apr 16, 2007 9:05 PM:

" Judas, try Google, that's usually where I start, and I try to read both sides. It's usually eye opening. "

JS wrote on Apr 17, 2007 12:09 AM:

" Hypachristian-A word invinted by a friend that means, "A 'christian' who acts supriror, while knowingly goes aginst his/her faith". Christianity, I am sorry to say is just like every other religion, it has faults and its good points. But the answers I have seen on this page shows how unknowledgable people are on faith and its history and honestly remind me of people like the radical muslims in the Middle East. The bible has been changed thousends of times by those who traslated it. A good idea was turned into a way to control people. The bible cannot be taken seriously. It is a book of, for want of a better eord, fairytales used to tell a story. But the story has been turned into a story of hate, greed, and hypocracy. Of course the bible is going to scare you, they want you to follow what they say, and they use scare tactics. "

No wrote on Apr 17, 2007 12:29 AM:

" I am telling you what THE BIBLE SAYS. Look it up for yourself instead of casting stones. Does your Bible say something different? "

Judas Iscariot wrote on Apr 17, 2007 7:54 AM:

" In other words -Answer, you have no credible evidence. "

Answer wrote on Apr 17, 2007 12:59 PM:

" In other words, do your own research, you might learn something. "

Voltaire wrote on Apr 17, 2007 1:46 PM:

" While I generally avoid Wikipedia, here is a good place to start to understand the rapture ideology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture "

Bible Believers wrote on Apr 17, 2007 2:20 PM:

" "No one knows when Christ will return to earth to take the Christians, but it will happen". And it could not be soon enough! The bible is a book written by men who lived 1800 yrs ago, how reliable can it be. Really x-ians, blind faith is dangerous. "

Huh wrote on Apr 17, 2007 3:01 PM:

" 2 Timothy 3:16 - all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for reproving, for setting things straight. 1 Peter 1:20,21 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit. Either you have faith in the Bible as God's INSPIRED word, or you don't. If you don't, that is your loss and don't bash us that choose to believe. Does the president of a company write his letters personally, or does he delegate that task to his secretary? And just FYI - parts of the bible were written over 3,500 years ago and have survived to this day. If that doesn't show that God has protected it for our benefit, I don't know what does. "

Judas Iscariot wrote on Apr 17, 2007 4:16 PM:

" Answer- does that mean that you learned something (credible evidence) that you can't share with the rest of us? Why won't you advance your position with cited evidence? Is that such an unreasonable request? "

Tom wrote on Apr 17, 2007 5:58 PM:

" HUH, I would like to offer my thanks for a good post. Well said. "

Hello? wrote on Apr 17, 2007 9:37 PM:

" Is this the bible thumpers section? "

Well duh wrote on Apr 17, 2007 11:25 PM:

" Of course it's the bible thumpers section! Didn't you read the letter this blog is about? Go post on the letter about the Iraq war - there isn't any mention of the bible there. That should make you feel better. "

Jim wrote on Apr 18, 2007 9:53 AM:

" The word Rapture is not found in scripture but the term means caught away which is what the Bible states will happen when Jesus returns for his church. The only people going to Heaven are the ones who have accepted Jesus Christ as the personal Lord and Saviour. The Bible clearly states that those who do not accept Christ in their life will spend eternity in Hell. It is a sad truth but it is the truth. Jesus is coming and yes we don't know the time or place but we do know that He is coming. "

actually, wrote on Apr 18, 2007 10:09 AM:

" There are several biblical references in the Iraq blog. "

Sorry wrote on Apr 18, 2007 2:51 PM:

" Yeah I realized that after I posted that, sorry. "

Jim is Mistaken wrote on Apr 18, 2007 2:54 PM:

" Rapture is not in the Bible, either specifically stated or implied. That is a false religious teaching. A burning fiery place of torment (i.e., HELL) is a false religious teaching. Why would a loving God torment people forever like that? It has not come up into his heart. Hell is simply the grave. Nothing more. THAT is the truth. "

????? wrote on Apr 18, 2007 3:28 PM:

" I'm a Christian by birth & by choice. However, unlike many others, I don't believe that only Christians. . .and only those who have been "saved". . .will share a kingdom with God. I think of Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, and many other non-Christians who perhaps could be considered saints, or saved, or born-again if only they HAD been Christians. Personally, as a CHristian, I let the "judging" to God. I don't put myself in his throne & condemn others to burn in hell. Judging others is evil and the source of much hatred in this world. Christians aren't exempt from law! "

AMAZED wrote on Apr 18, 2007 4:14 PM:

" The one who posts as "Jim Is Mistaken" is spewing the Jehovah's Witness doctrine which is so far removed from what Jesus taught that it is not even on the same planet. If you want to know what JW's believe do a search on google and read page after page and you will be shocked. "

AMAZED wrote on Apr 18, 2007 4:20 PM:

" I need to make one correction concerning what I said concerning what "Jim IS Mistaken" said. You are absolutely right about the rapture not being in the Bible, stated, or implied. I read it too fast and saw my mistake. The rest I cannot agree with at all. But I want to admit when I make a mistake. Tnx. "

For questionmarks wrote on Apr 18, 2007 4:22 PM:

" The bible clearly delineates requirements to be acceptable to God. First and foremost is to accept Jesus as the only-begotten son of God as Saviour; next to follow God's laws and requirements. Those who have died will have a chance to prove their loyalty to God when they are resurrected after Armageddon. If you are not a faithful worshiper when Armageddon comes, you will die, forever. No hell. No resurrection. Just death; nonexistence. "

Voltaire wrote on Apr 18, 2007 4:54 PM:

" I must yield my ego to ?????. That is probably the most thoughtful comment I've seen on these forums in many weeks. We'd all be better off if more people thought like ?????. "

Seeing From The Side wrote on Apr 18, 2007 9:10 PM:

" So the rich man who was tormented in these flames was just non-existent. And eternal fire doesn't last and is for the non-existent? What on earth are you reading? Would you like to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? "

Tom wrote on Apr 18, 2007 9:17 PM:

" Jesus tells us to "judge righteous judgement" in John 7:24 so there is a place for judging if done fairly. It also says, "By their fruit, ye shall know them." We are told to condemn false teachers and false teaching and unless we did the righteous judgement we would have no way to know if it were so. Sure, it can be abused but won't be if done according to the Scriptures. Doing things God's way is always scriptural. "

Hey Seeing wrote on Apr 18, 2007 10:44 PM:

" The illustration you were referring to is just that - an ILLUSTRATION. Jesus did not mean it literally. That is one of the most misquoted, misunderstood, misrepresented scriptures used to prove a doctrine that doesn't exist. Hellfire is not a scriptural teaching. Those who teach it are teaching lies. Hell is simply the grave. "

Duh wrote on Apr 19, 2007 5:03 AM:

" Hey, when the Rapture comes and you guys fly up into the sky like Peter Pan and Tinkerbell, will you throw me your wallet? Thanks. "

Jim wrote on Apr 19, 2007 9:30 AM:

" I think that is pretty ironic that someone would say that I am spouting Jehovah Witness doctrine. The bible states that Jesus is coming back for his church and the saints will rise up to meet him in the air. Yes it is only the saints. For all those who think that hell is just the grave I feel sorry for you. Jesus himself spoke of hell as where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. By the way, I am a born again christian and I am very knowledgeable of the bible. Something to think about for those who believe that we are all going to heaven. Heaven comes from the bible and it is the home of God not the home of Dali Laima or Sung Yung Moon or any other gods. "

TO HEY SEEING wrote on Apr 19, 2007 10:33 AM:

" You are giving the Jehovah's Witness version of hell-fire, not the Bible version. JW's conveniently say everything is symbolic and not literal when it fits their doctrine and vice versa. "

Mildred wrote on Apr 19, 2007 10:36 AM:

" I would like to ask a question. Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons not have anything to do with each other and why don't they worship together? I have been wondering about that. Thank you. "

Sorry wrote on Apr 19, 2007 10:58 AM:

" Yes it is the Bible's version, not a Jehovah's Witnesse version. That's kinda funny. I'm sorry that you have been blinded by false relgious teachers. I suppose eventually the truth will be known to all. "

For Mildred wrote on Apr 19, 2007 10:59 AM:

" Contact Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons directly if you have questions about their beliefs. I think that has been mentioned to you a number of times. "

TrueChristian wrote on Apr 19, 2007 2:56 PM:

" If you murder unborn babies you will not go to heaven with the rapture. Amen! "

Harold wrote on Apr 19, 2007 3:06 PM:

" How do JW's honor and serve our country when they say all man-made governments are evil? They don't sing the national anthem, they don't vote, they don't celebrate any holidays, they don't salute the flag, they won't serve in combat in the armed services, etc. Yet they enjoy all the benefits and freedoms our men have fought for and given them to enjoy. So I ask, how do JW's honor and serve our country? What do they do to be a part of society that provides these things for them? "

ItsJustDave wrote on Apr 20, 2007 9:41 AM:

" "True Christian": Kindly post your name and address and I'll gladly notify the social services agencies in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Detroit, Washington, D.C., et. al. that they can set up caravans of unwanted, abused and neglected inner city babies and deliver them to your home for food, shelter and education - at YOUR expense, of course. "

gomez wrote on Apr 21, 2007 1:22 AM:

" well said, itsjustdave. i agree with you. lets show him about those unwanted children, that normal, not oppressed girls are forced too have. then show how many oppressed girls have the same problem. the idea behind this post by " True Christian" is to stop sexual exploration. that is a natural human instinct. sometimes the people involved are not willing participants. that is to say that drunk people make mistakes, and there is no reason for a person to serve an 18 year sentence for a momentary lack of judgment. i don't care what anybody says, I cant remember any time in the womb, and i am a fairly well endowed in the memory dept.. in my personal opinion, you missed a dose of your MENTAL maintenance pills. or maybe you have had too many. thanks. ( the one, the only.) "

Abortion wrote on Apr 21, 2007 2:37 PM:

" Is murder. Plain and simple. Ask any woman who decided not to have an abortion what she gave birth to - a human being. If she were to kill that human being within minutes of birth, she would be charged with a crime. So get off your high horse people, and see the heinous act of abortion for what it really is - murder to avoid parenthood. "

??????? wrote on Apr 21, 2007 4:07 PM:

" To "Just Dave" & "Gomez". . So, rape, drunken mistakes, unplanned sex are all legitimate reasons to abort a child? Oh, BTW, Gomez, in case you didn't know it, parenting a child doesn't abruptly halt in 18 years. Perhaps that's what has happened to you! That was mean; I'll apologize in advance. It just saddens me that in this day in age, with all the images of "fetuses" (babies) that people still cannot accept that they are God's child. Yep, I'm a right to lifer! And just to put a little more spark into the debate, I abhor the death penalty! "

Truth wrote on Apr 22, 2007 5:17 PM:

" "Abortion is murder." Wrong. Murder is defined as "illegal killing with malice aforethought" -- abortion fails this definition for two reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, and second, there is no evidence to suggest that expecting mothers feel malice towards their own flesh and blood. Why aren't the abortion fanatics decrying the death penalty, war, and automobiles as murder? They all result in a death that doesn't fit the definition of murder, so why just call abortion murder. Oh, I see, you feel about abortion the same way the peace activists feel about war -- but because you are denouncing abortion in the name of God, that makes it all okay. Look, if God didn't want us to have abortions, He would have put in an 11th Commandment, "Thou shalt not have an abortion." By the way, do you know God sanctioned abortions when the child was the produce of an extra-marital affair? Go read Numbers 5:20-21 for more information. "

B wrote on Apr 22, 2007 7:32 PM:

" You are sick!!!! "

I agree wrote on Apr 22, 2007 11:06 PM:

" The "Truth" poster is not only sick, he's misinformed and justifying an act of murder. And twisting the scriptures. Abortion is a legal act of murder - does that sound better to you? I happen to think that ANY type of intentional killing is murder by the way. Any type - including the ones perpetrated in war, ones that happen because of careless car crashes, etc. You must not have any conscience at all to say that killing an innocent baby is NOT murder. I really feel sorry for you - you are blind and without feeling. If your mother had an abortion when she was pregnant with you, you wouldn't be here to promote your murderous opinions. I truly do feel sorry for you. "

Truth wrote on Apr 23, 2007 12:31 AM:

" Misinformed? No. Legal act of murder? That is an oxymoron. Take a couple on classes on law, then get back to us with what you learned about the law. Just because you think it's a bad thing, then it's obviously murder? That's not how the law works, sorry. There are many forms of killing which are legal, and abortion is one. Let me guess, are you opposed to abortions because of that little bit in Exodus? Please revist it and check the original Hebrew. The Hebrew word for "kill" in the 6th Commandment is rasach, which more accurately means "murder," or illegal killing judged harmful by the community. The community has decided that abortion is not illegal or harmful, thus not murder. Now, perhaps, the fetus has a soul. God, however, created Adam and then gave unto him a soul -- it was a two part process. Given this as our understanding of how God created the first man, on what grounds does a partially developed fetus suddenly obtain a soul? If these are your reasons, then in addition to not understanding the definition of murder or law, you also lack an understanding of the Bible. Now, who is really misinformed? Just because you don't agreed with what I have said, that doesn't equate to me being misinformed. Of course, when one lacks the reasoning to debate an issue with logic, it is easier to resort to name calling. "

Sick wrote on Apr 23, 2007 8:27 AM:

" "Truth" you truly are sick. Like was mentioned, if your mother had an abortion when she was pregnant with you you wouldn't be here today. Abortion IS murder, and you can justify it in your sick mind in any fashion you please. Murder is the deliberate act of taking a life. Abortion is taking a life. I know it's hard for a pea brain like you to try to understand, but I'm sure you can rack your brains just a little to understand the concept. And don't spout hatred towards the scriptures at me - I have chosen not to address your obvious lack of knowledge about the Bible. It's rather funny, actually, so if you want to keep entertaining us, please do.....I however am going to go on with my life. God will punish you for your mouth and actions, however. I can't wait for that day. "

Jim wrote on Apr 23, 2007 9:55 AM:

" What you do not understand is that God's law overrides man's law everytime. What God has said in his word overrides what the President, congress and yes even the Supreme Court says. The apostles in the book of Acts said it best when they stated that we must obey God rather than man. The abortion issue has been based on the term fetus which is a guilt releaser when it comes to the act of abortion which is murder in the eyes of God. "

Well Said Jim! wrote on Apr 23, 2007 10:39 AM:

" Thank you Jim! Well said! God's law does override man's law - Acts 5:29 - we must obey God as ruler rather than men. "

Duh wrote on Apr 23, 2007 11:47 AM:

" Once you start claiming that events are caused by invisible beings who never appear and for whom there is no objective evidence of existence, you have thrown all standards of reason right out the window. Why not just blame everything on the giant turtle whose shell supports the universe, and let it go at that? It makes just as much sense. "

Truth wrote on Apr 23, 2007 1:22 PM:

" LOL. You didn't even read or respond to my comments, you just called me sick, pea brained, and ignorant and reposted pieces of your original post. I feel sorry for you because you cannot think for yourself, analyze the facts, adopt a view that is contradictory to what is pushed by your cult, and engage in a civil debate without name calling. My posts are based on fact and make people think about the issue; your posts make people laugh. "

Ha yourself wrote on Apr 23, 2007 2:52 PM:

" LOL yourself, we could go around and around for decades and never accomplish anything. You go ahead and think that abortion is not murder - that is your prerogative. Mine is to believe that it is murder; first because it fits the definition of purposely ending a life; and second because it is against God's law....you should feel sorry for yourself because in the end, you will recognize that you are wrong when you are destroyed. I can't wait for that day! Yee haw! Enjoy your life while you can. "

Laughter? wrote on Apr 23, 2007 2:53 PM:

" Ones who deny that abortion is murder are the ones who are being laughed at. "

Destroyed wrote on Apr 23, 2007 4:58 PM:

" No, murder is not defined as "purposely ending a life" -- I have proven that. No, it is not against God's law -- I have also proven that. What have you proven? You've proven you feel that abortion is murder because... "you think it is murder because you think it's murder because you think it's murder because you think it's murder because you..." That is a pathetic argument. You people are pathetic, casting out curses in the name of your God to destroy me and revelling in the thought -- a pathetic argument from a pathetic person who believes in a pathetic religion. "

gomez wrote on Apr 23, 2007 5:19 PM:

" for ???????, i have too wonder if there has ever been a time when you made a mistake,or were forced too do something you regret? now, tell me would you want too look at the result of some drug addict that has raped you? take your hind end off of your shoulders. if it is just a drunken mistake, again i ask, why should the innocent pay the price of living in poverty? not every body can support their children. that doesn't mean that they should not practice safe sex. the whole thing i think about is the 6 year old that cant go too the dentist, doctor or goes too bed hungry. all because a bunch of NOSY people cant seem to understand that what i do with my body, and anything that it produces is my #$%^& business. if you mind your own business, then you would not have too worry about this issue. just like gay marriage, if you don't believe in it, then don't marry a gay person. if you don't believe in abortion, then dont have one! stop trying too impose your will onto everybody else. thanks. (the one, the only.) "

Thanks! wrote on Apr 23, 2007 5:46 PM:

" I would rather be known as pathetic than a murderer, or one who condones it. You made my day! Have a nice life, what you have left of it. "

ItsJustDave wrote on Apr 23, 2007 5:52 PM:

" OK, I give up. ALL life, or potential life, is to be sanctified. If you are a good Christian woman at a mall, park or late night alleyway, and a man propositions you for sex, you MUST agree... there is a chance that a new life could be created during such an encounter. To deny the possibility of creating a new life will surely damn you to hell forever as a murderer WAY before the fact. Rapists and molestors of preteen girls are simply following God's command to be fruitful and multiply. "

But if... wrote on Apr 23, 2007 6:52 PM:

" ALL life, or potential life, is to be sanctified... Leviticus 20:1,9: The Lord said to Moses… "If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death." "

But if... wrote on Apr 23, 2007 6:52 PM:

" ALL life, or potential life, is to be sanctified... 1 Samuel 15:2-3 says: This is what the Lord Almighty says: "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." "

But if... wrote on Apr 23, 2007 6:53 PM:

" ALL life, or potential life, is to be sanctified... A wife found guilty of adultery was to be killed along with her lover. (Deuteronomy 22:22.) "

Ah... wrote on Apr 23, 2007 6:55 PM:

" I guess not all life is really to be to be sanctified. "

Voltaire wrote on Apr 24, 2007 3:32 AM:

" Just teach your children moral values so they won't have abortion, okay? You are a good parent, right? You don't need the government to outlaw abortion so your children won't have it, right? Let the people who want to kill their children have abortions, okay? Do you really want people who devalue the life of thier children to really have offspring and give those values to their children? Think about it and stop wasting our time with this pointless debate -- are you really going to change the way other people think? Come on, move on past your differences and start debating something important. "

Thanks wrote on Apr 24, 2007 9:12 AM:

" Voltaire, I actually agree with you for a change! "

Jim wrote on Apr 24, 2007 9:54 AM:

" The world has been laughing at the church for many years. The reason is that we can only quote Old Testament scriptures that do not apply to us today. You have to be consistent in scripture and if you pull something out of context just to prove your point it only causes confusion. Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly. Jesus is the giver of life. He desires that all human beings come to a place of repentance. The big question in the abortion issue is a common sense question. Does the baby have a heartbeat? If so then it is not a fetus it is a human being and therefore if you kill it or stop the heartbeat then you are committing murder no matter what the government says! "

Duh wrote on Apr 24, 2007 11:12 AM:

" "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -- Charles Darwin "

So... wrote on Apr 24, 2007 12:02 PM:

" Wow. When something in the Old Testament doesn't fit nicely into a Christian view, they cry, "Those rules don't apply anymore." Maybe you all should just tear out the Old Testament and throw it away. You cannot argue that all life is sacred, based on a misinterpreted verse in Exodus, then turn around and deny the instances in the Old Testament where God endorses killing. "

I see... wrote on Apr 24, 2007 12:07 PM:

" "Jesus is the giver of life." So, there wasn't life on Earth before Jesus? "

More... wrote on Apr 24, 2007 12:12 PM:

" We can already see the Christian fundamentalists misuse the word murder. Anyone can go and look up the definition of murder and see that abortion fails to meet it. Just because some find abortion disgusting, that does not mean it is murder. Now we have another misuse of terms: "A fetus is a baby." A fetus is not a baby, just as a baby is not a fetus. What grounds does this person use to justify a fetus being a baby? It has a heartbeat! Well now, a cow has a heartbeat too. Cat's do too, so they must be babies. "

Darwin is an idiot wrote on Apr 24, 2007 2:52 PM:

" Darwin is an idiot. Too bad for him. "

More..is a moron wrote on Apr 24, 2007 4:04 PM:

" If your mother had had an abortion we wouldn't be subject today to your blah blah blah. It would have been - aha! Murder! "

Darwin wrote on Apr 24, 2007 4:30 PM:

" I AM dead you idiot! "

Third Time wrote on Apr 24, 2007 5:48 PM:

" Wow, is that all you people can say? "If your mother had had an abortion we wouldn't be subject today." That's the very same response I've gotten three times in a row. Oh, and I'm a moron now -- cool. I'm glad you have given up any serious pretense at having a debate. You know the answers, and anything short of (maybe) God coming down and whispering in your ear will not change how you think. That, my friends, is the danger of religion. "

No Debate wrote on Apr 24, 2007 8:14 PM:

" No debate is necessary when it comes to taking an innocent life. It is murder. You can shout from the rooftops until you are blue, justify your heinous act anyway you want, doesn't matter. It is murder. It is pointless to try to justify yourself. The more you talk the stupider you sound. "

Heinous? wrote on Apr 24, 2007 8:56 PM:

" "...your heinous act..." Since when did it become my heinous act? Did I ever once say, "I am pro-choice", or, "I think abortion should be legal" -- no, I did not. Would I want my child to have an aborton? No, I would not. Believe it or not, I am neutral on abortion -- but that makes me pro-choice, doesn't it, because I am not out there decrying abortion (falsely) as murder in every single thread on the JG-TC forums. I simply corrected your misuse of the term "murder." I was attacking your logic, never your position. If you are really so adamant about abortion, have someone else debate it for you -- you are a pathetic debater. Obviously, you failed to grasp what we were talking about. In your mind, you just want to debate the morality of abortion by using emotional language -- but you see, we were never debating abortion at the moral level; we were debating if it is murder like you suggested. It may be heinous, it may be disgusting, it may be morally repugnant -- but abortion is not murder. You never really understood this whole debate, did you? How can we have a national debate when one side does not listen to the discourse and catagorically refuses think about the issue logically? To make matters worse, that side does not even understand basic law, how to use a dictionary, or even what their own Holy text says about killing, children, and abortion. "

JMB wrote on Apr 24, 2007 8:56 PM:

" My personal view is this: If there is no definitive way to know for sure when life begins- whether it be conception or some point later- then you would have to error on the side of caution and not terminate the process at any point. This is my "theroretical" view. In reality, I could clearly see a possible exception to this in the case of rape. "

Re JMB wrote on Apr 25, 2007 12:38 AM:

" Why is there an exception in rape? If the whole argument is that the new life begins after conception, why does it matter? You had no control as to whether you were begat by loving people or some psycho rapeist's fantasy. Should the unborn be held accountable for what they cannot control? "

Duh wrote on Apr 25, 2007 10:05 AM:

" "So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence; and in this respect ministers of religion follow gospel authority more closely than in some others." — Bertrand Russell "

JMB wrote on Apr 25, 2007 10:16 AM:

" Ah! But- in reality- why should the woman be held accountable for something that *she* was never in control of? It could easily be argued that the woman would be forced to live through the rape for 9 continual months. What if you were that woman? Who would have the right to force that on you? "

Defending wrote on Apr 25, 2007 12:05 PM:

" Defending murder makes you guilty by association. Abortion is murder. "

pro life wrote on Apr 25, 2007 2:44 PM:

" IT SEEMS LIKE SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE WE GOT OFF THE SUBJECT OF THE ARTICLE THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS JESUS IS COMING BACK AND WE NEED TO BE READY. AND THEN NOTHING ELSE MATTERS INCLUDING THE ABORTION ISSUE. GOD GETS THE LAST WORD. "

gertie wrote on Apr 25, 2007 3:38 PM:

" All I have to say is, "You had better be!" HE IS COMING AGAIN TO TAKE US HOME! BE PREPARED "

Answer wrote on Apr 25, 2007 4:03 PM:

" I think it would be truly great if there is some sort of rapture and I hope it's soon, so all you wacko religous zealots will get off the planet. "

JMB wrote on Apr 25, 2007 4:05 PM:

" Shouldn't you bible-beaters be over at the pope page condemning the catholics to hell? You already cast the mormons in to the pit of fire last month didn't you? Tell me, does that phone line to God come with free late-night and weekend minutes? "

Actually wrote on Apr 25, 2007 4:09 PM:

" The phone line to God is free - it's called THE BIBLE. Something you people have forgotten all about. "

Cellular Bible Scholar wrote on Apr 25, 2007 4:35 PM:

" Really? Now is that the bible according to Verizon? Cellular One? Vonage? Or the ever popular revised Cingular plan? I think your reception is breaking up. And so are you. Wacko! "

Hey JMB wrote on Apr 25, 2007 4:40 PM:

" Your post was hilarious! "

Idiot wrote on Apr 25, 2007 4:43 PM:

" That was really stupid cellular fool. I guess you'll get yours in the end. "

JMB wrote on Apr 25, 2007 5:00 PM:

" To, (Hey JMB) Thanks! I guess we'll see each other in hell. I'll be the guy in the Hawaiian shirt. "

ItsJustDave wrote on Apr 25, 2007 7:38 PM:

" More bumper sticker theology: 'Jesus is coming ... Look busy!' Some of these posts are more amusing (or pathetically sad, I suppose)than the political ones. Looks like the gist of the letter and the posts is to not make God or Jesus, too mad or else one, or both, of them will torture and slaughter people, whether they have done anything wrong or not. Be born in a region of the world where Christianity is not widespread, you have no chance. Be a model citizen, never harm as much as an insect, help others in need, but don't accept (or is it grovel) Jesus, and you're doomed. Be an evil, hateful, selfish, misogynist puppy rapist and it's OK as long as you tell Jesus you're sorry later. If that's your idea of a great and loving savior, you can go without me. Sounds like someone I'd prefer not to meet. "

The Heretic wrote on Apr 25, 2007 10:42 PM:

" If the religious fanatics are what is to be expected from heaven; then I will take my chances with hell. "

gomez wrote on Apr 25, 2007 10:48 PM:

" for (itsjustdave), i completely agree with you. i have read some of your posts on other topics, and we are not so different in opinion. thank you for stating it better than i have been able too. thanks. (the one, the only.). "

ItsJustDave wrote on Apr 26, 2007 8:22 AM:

" Thanx, Gomez. I try to behave, but I do tend to go a little overboard now and then to make a point. Some people don't understand the irony, or appreciate my warped sense of humor. That's fine. Extremists of any sort disturb me, whether it be religious, political, environmental or social. I don't intentionally say things that I don't believe just to stir the pot, but I am sometimes guilty of overdramatizing - to expose absurdity on both sides of an issue, I suppose. "

gomez wrote on Apr 26, 2007 12:37 PM:

" that is one of the qualities that make your posts interesting. i wish we could have more light-hearted commentary. i go a little overboard myself. maybe someday we can get everybody to understand that this is supposed to be a friendly discussion, and not an insult contest. i don't care about the whole political banter, but that is because i dont care for any of them. they are all manipulators that only want to get into your head, your wallet, or your life, and i checked yesterday, and came too the conclusion that i am an adult, and being such, can make my own decisions without it being a law. thanks.(the one, the only.) "

Jim Hies wrote on Apr 27, 2007 6:39 AM:

" Just out of curiosity, what makes the KJV the official bible of the world. There were bibles before King James. Do you have some affiliation with England and their agenda's? "

Re JMB wrote on Apr 27, 2007 2:04 PM:

" Just arguing for the sake of argument here, but you say in an earlier post that if it isn't known when life begins, which we don't in a philosophically meaningful way, then we should err on the side of caution. I assumed that this meant that you felt that it was wrong to extinguish life because of the value of that life, not the feelings of the mother. If the feelings of the mother are more important than the life of the child, why not just say that abortion is o.k. under any circumstance? PS I'll be the guy with the crazy hat, you'll know it when you see it. "

I'd like to know wrote on Apr 27, 2007 2:51 PM:

" I'd like to know that too, about the KJV of the Bible. It is a VERSION authorized by King James. Was he catholic or protestant? Why do we quote 16th century english when we quote the Bible? In the movie the 10 commandments, they all speak 16th century english - which is HILARIOUS. I'm just sure Moses said "dost thou" and all that other nonsense. "

JMB wrote on Apr 27, 2007 8:20 PM:

" Hello (Re JMB) Good to hear from you. I look forward to your company in the netherworld. In the "theroretical" sense I believe that the preservation of life trumps "feelings". Therefore I am against abortion in most cases. However, you relegate "circumstances" to a secondary role, and I see circumstances as the primary factor. Inviting a person into your house and shooting them dead is far different than killing a person who has broken into your house in the middle of the night. Both events result in the death of a person, but under far different circumstances. Who could place blame on the person who "felt" that their house had been violated? Maybe I'm wrong on this. I'm open to ideas. What do you think? "

Earl (the poster formerly known as re:JMB) wrote on Apr 28, 2007 1:43 PM:

" Interesting thought, but the person in your analogy had a choice to break into the house. This choice to do what was known to be wrong was the act that nullified their right to life. The fetus, blastula, baby, whatever you want to call it, that is produced by rape had no choice in the matter, and it would be difficult to argue that they did. This would be like someone breaking into a house in the middle of the night with a child, or a vegetable, or a partied out fratboy, or anyone who could not control where they would end up, and leaving that person in the house. Certainly, the house has been violated but not by the child/vegetable/fratboy. The owner of the house would be aware that this person had no control of their wherabouts just by looking at them, yet the person was not invited, do they shoot? I don't have all the answers either, but I hope this makes some sense. "